PDA

View Full Version : Men in MJ - a Selfish Thread



Feelingpink
20th-December-2005, 01:22 PM
Prompted by finding myself partnerless for the last dance at Jango and by knowing that at least one other woman left early because of a lack of men (& by this seeming to happen more regularly at most venues), I wonder how we can encourage more men to start MJ and continue with it.

I wanted to hear from men what barriers there are to starting (& staying) in MJ. Perhaps things can be done to change how things to make MJ more welcoming and rewarding?

I an given to believe :devil: that one of the delights of MJ is that men get to spend lots of time in close proximity to lots of women. But is there a case for there to be some more men-only classes so they can learn skills & style to impress their partners without the worry of looking silly in front of them? And it might be a great male bonding opportunity.

When Kate ran her ladies' style workshop, I heard one guy joke that there would be a corresponding men's styling class starting at 2.00pm and finishing at 2.05pm. It was funny .... but in all seriousness, wondered if there should be male style classes (not because they necessarily need more 'style' - more making sure that our lovely partners are happy & fulfilled & going to stay in MJ for longer).

LMC
20th-December-2005, 01:38 PM
I'd like to say I don't think that this is a selfish thread at all - more men in MJ would obviously benefit all women - and benefit men who will be more able to choose who they want to dance with and no longer be forced to hide if they want a rest.

I know that there is more to MJ than Ceroc - but it is by far the largest and best known MJ teaching organisation in most of the UK. So I wonder if the Ceroc "you can dance in one night" is actually doing more harm than good - because it is patently untrue the minute you hit the first freestyle track if not before. I wonder how many beginner guys just get completely discouraged thinking that they *should* be able to dance after their first lesson - and as they can't, Ceroc (=MJ) is not for them.

Since I'm not a guy I'll shut up now...

EDIT: Channelling MartinHarper, the obligatory link, NOT intended to kill this thread but hopefully to add material for discussion :)

Missing Men (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=601#postid601)

ChrisA
20th-December-2005, 01:52 PM
men-only classes so they can learn skills & style.... And it might be a great male bonding opportunity.

Ah, the mysteries of the female mind... :whistle:

Chicklet
20th-December-2005, 01:53 PM
, I wonder how we can encourage more men to start MJ and continue with it.

Advertise at cricket clubs?
(seriously)

David Franklin
20th-December-2005, 01:54 PM
I wonder how many beginner guys just get completely discouraged thinking that they *should* be able to dance after their first lesson - and as they can't Ceroc (=MJ) is not for them.I'm not sure that is a particularly big issue - I don't know the men are that gullible. I think a bigger problem is that because the lead determines the level of the dance, you get the following differences in experience:

Woman after 4 weeks: I danced with Viktor, and it was wonderful, he was so smooth, and he lead me into all these moves I've never done!

Man after 4 weeks: I danced with Nina, and I couldn't keep on beat, and all I could do was the 6 beginner moves I know, and I felt I was boring her!

Woman to man: It's so lovely dancing with the good dancers - they keep proper time, and they listen to the music, and they don't jerk me when they make mistakes. Why don't you dance like that?

Man: :tears: {slit wrists and pools of blood emoticon}

To make another stereotype, women get to the "evangelical" stage about MJ a lot quicker than men. Heck, women will be recruiting people to come with them even before they've done a lesson! While the men want to be John Travolta, Patrick Swayze and Brendon Cole combined before they might consider letting people at the office know they go dancing. (Anyone else thinking of the film Shall We Dance as they read this?)

Donna
20th-December-2005, 01:58 PM
but in all seriousness, wondered if there should be male style classes (not because they necessarily need more 'style' - more making sure that our lovely partners are happy & fulfilled & going to stay in MJ for longer).


I reckon there should be. A lot of these style workshops are more focused on the women. Men should get the chance to show off as well.

Andreas
20th-December-2005, 01:58 PM
To be totally honest, I often bug out before the last dance. I do love to dance the last dance ... with my girlfriend. Dancing it with another person always reminds me of the distance to her and sometimes even spoils the night for me. My excuse :tears: :flower:


I am given to believe that one of the delights of MJ is that men get to spend lots of time in close proximity to lots of women. But is there a case for there to be some more men-only classes so they can learn skills & style to impress their partners without the worry of looking silly in front of them? And it might be a great male bonding opportunity.

Close proximity may be nice, but it certainly should not be the reason for guys to go to dance. ;) Style classes can certainly help a lot of guys :whistle: but the most important thing that I always emphasised on is: For as long as both of you are having fun and enjoying fooling around on the dance floor, nobody will perceive you as looking silly. People will consider it ENTERTAINING!

Donna
20th-December-2005, 02:02 PM
To be totally honest, I often bug out before the last dance. I do love to dance the last dance ... with my girlfriend. Dancing it with another person always reminds me of the distance to her and sometimes even spoils the night for me. My excuse :tears: :flower:


Awww bless!

Feelingpink
20th-December-2005, 02:08 PM
To be totally honest, I often bug out before the last dance. I do love to dance the last dance ... with my girlfriend. Dancing it with another person always reminds me of the distance to her and sometimes even spoils the night for me. My excuse :tears: :flower:

...Fair enough too.:hug:

Lee
20th-December-2005, 02:12 PM
I tried to get a few of my mates to try Ceroc, they did for 2 weeks each.

I remember for my first 8 weeks, each week said i wasn't going to return, only one person kept me going long enough to like it and she was the girl i went with because she spent time with me so i could remember my moves.

It takes a lot for a guy to stick it out for his first 8 lessons to get to the level and confidence to freestyle.

If the ladies want more men to stay, please ask them to dance and help get them through their first 8 weeks of torture.

or do people think it's Cerocs responsibility to achieve this?

Lee

Andreas
20th-December-2005, 02:12 PM
To make another stereotype, women get to the "evangelical" stage about MJ a lot quicker than men. Heck, women will be recruiting people to come with them even before they've done a lesson! While the men want to be John Travolta, Patrick Swayze and Brendon Cole combined before they might consider letting people at the office know they go dancing. (Anyone else thinking of the film Shall We Dance as they read this?)

In my experience (totally biased as usual :D ) this is only of advantage in an intermediate stage of one's dancing career. The fast progress of followers due to good leads more often than not leads to untidy technique, which slows them down later on.

So yes, it is harder for guys to stay motivated to start with because of slower progress. But later on it is harder for followers to improve at a high pace because of slacking in the beginning. Obviously it does not apply to all dancers, both sides of the fence.

JonD
20th-December-2005, 02:22 PM
If the ladies want more men to stay, please ask them to dance and help get them through their first 8 weeks of torture.
Absolutely! In my case it was closer to 16 weeks - and I didn't hit the beat, except in passing, for the first 12. The only reason I persevered was a group of ladies who danced with me, encouraged me and lied a lot about how well I was doing.

Talking to "non-danceaholic" guys the majority seem to come along purely for the opportunity to socialise with lots of ladies. While I might prefer them to have a real interest in learning to dance for it's own sake, their motivation seems fair enough as long as they don't "shark" and aren't sleazy. So, ladies, it's down to you.

(Wasn't there some church/cult in the USA that used to send their lady members on "flirty fishing" expeditions to recruit new members. Hmmmm .........)

Lynn
20th-December-2005, 02:24 PM
It helps if you know lots of men in the first place :innocent: :whistle: , I rarely go along to a local dance class without inviting male friends along. I can usually persuade them to give it a try, but I don't know how you can persuade them to stick at it.

I brought a male friend to Ashtons on Fri, he loved it and is going to start regular classes, I think he will pick it up quickly and will stick with it. I hope so as I won't be able to go along with him and encourage him myself, but I think his experience at Ashtons on Fri was enough to convince him to give it a go (women asking him to dance, and him explaining he only knew about 3 moves and them dancing with him anyway. :flower: )

David Franklin
20th-December-2005, 02:25 PM
In my experience (totally biased as usual :D ) this is only of advantage in an intermediate stage of one's dancing career. The fast progress of followers due to good leads more often than not leads to untidy technique, which slows them down later on.

So yes, it is harder for guys to stay motivated to start with because of slower progress. But later on it is harder for followers to improve at a high pace because of slacking in the beginning. Sure, but don't forget we were talking about why there's a lack of men. It's the initial stage of "I'm really struggling with this, and all the women do is go on about how good the other dancers are" that causes some men to give up. Unlike the women, they don't get a 'honeymoon' period where they feel they're making great progress and are really enjoying themselves. by the time followers reach their 'stage of disillusionment', they are already hooked.


Obviously it does not apply to all dancers, both sides of the fence.Ditto.

Lynn
20th-December-2005, 02:27 PM
(Wasn't there some church/cult in the USA that used to send their lady members on "flirty fishing" expeditions to recruit new members. Hmmmm .........)Yes, a movement called 'The Family' (also called 'The Children of God').

David Franklin
20th-December-2005, 02:30 PM
Yes, a movement called 'The Family' (also called 'The Children of God').Who are not exactly a group many would want to emulate or be associated with!

doc martin
20th-December-2005, 02:30 PM
I wanted to hear from men what barriers there are to starting (& staying) in MJ. Perhaps things can be done to change how things to make MJ more welcoming and rewarding?
I think there are two separate problems. Getting men to start and keeping them once they have started.

A lot of men won't dance because men dancing is viewed as effeminate in our culture. It is a view that I find strange in many ways. For starters, in which cultures do men tend to dance most? The most macho cultures. They seem to have picked up on the fact that you don't (usually) dance with other men, but you are in a situation where a woman is supposed to follow your every whim. How much less effeminate could a pastime sound than that?

OK, I know it's not the idea of being in control of ladies that puts the men off, it's because they think they look stupid when they move their bodies. Consider this though. How many guys do you see who manage to lead a whole dance without moving their feet, let alone doing any sexy wiggling? Perhaps Ceroc should change it's catchline to 'Learn to dance in one night without moving'. That might get a few more men through the doors.

And once they are through the doors, what stops them coming back? I think LMC hit it on the head.

...it is patently untrue the minute you hit the first freestyle track if not before
It is so scary to ask a lady to dance when you know you are going to make a total mess of it. You know she is not going to be thinking 'What a sexy guy, I must get closer to him' at the end of the dance. It's more likely to be 'Wow, how many left feet (and hands) can one guy have'.

I was very lucky to start learning with my partner, so we progressed together. If I had been on my own I think that I would have given up before ever reaching the stage of being able to lead a competent, intermediate level freestyle dance.

I an given to believe :devil: that one of the delights of MJ is that men get to spend lots of time in close proximity to lots of women. But is there a case for there to be some more men-only classes so they can learn skills & style to impress their partners without the worry of looking silly in front of them? And it might be a great male bonding opportunity.

When Kate ran her ladies' style workshop, I heard one guy joke that there would be a corresponding men's styling class starting at 2.00pm and finishing at 2.05pm. It was funny .... but in all seriousness, wondered if there should be male style classes (not because they necessarily need more 'style' - more making sure that our lovely partners are happy & fulfilled & going to stay in MJ for longer).
I don't think men only classes would work. Men need to learn to lead more than they need to learn style. I can definitely see a place for more lead and follow workshops. If men lack the confidence to get up and dance freestyle because they believe, often quite rightly, that they can't lead a good dance, then that is what they need to be taught. If they don't get taught that, they may well not hang around for the freestyle and probably won't come back for the lesson next week.

I see there have been quite a few more posts since I started writing this (I should learn to think faster [I can type fast enough]). So a big :yeah: to David Franklin, Lee and JonD

HeatherX
20th-December-2005, 02:41 PM
I hate it when the men are hugely outnumbered. I am very good about dancing with new men, and I do so every week, and I hope I am encouraging. But I don't think this will solve the problem.

There is always going to be an attrition rate with MJ - you get 100 people through the door, and (at a guess) maybe 10 of them are still regulars a year later. Did I read on here that the average length of time, once people get beyond beginners, is 8 mths? I think that's probably overstating it. So women drop out as well as men.

But if there are fewer male beginners, they only have to drop out slightly more than the women for the problem to worsen. It's definitely harder for men at the start as good male dancers can always whirl a woman through a track even if she has only had a couple of lessons. On my first night, I was asked to dance by a taxi dancer, and I caught a glimpse of how fanastic it could be....but men don't get that.

The numbers problem goes right back to night one, when a beginner decides to try something new. I see men beginners coming either on their own, or with a female partner - only rarely with a guy. But female beginners sometimes come in packs of three or four!

We have to get the men coming in pairs or threes, and they won't.

Andreas
20th-December-2005, 02:43 PM
Sure, but don't forget we were talking about why there's a lack of men. It's the initial stage of "I'm really struggling with this, and all the women do is go on about how good the other dancers are" that causes some men to give up. Unlike the women, they don't get a 'honeymoon' period where they feel they're making great progress and are really enjoying themselves. by the time followers reach their 'stage of disillusionment', they are already hooked.
You don't want me to digress, do you? :devil:

Sorry, you are right, I moved off target. :whistle:

Feelingpink
20th-December-2005, 02:47 PM
...

It is so scary to ask a lady to dance when you know you are going to make a total mess of it. You know she is not going to be thinking 'What a sexy guy, I must get closer to him' at the end of the dance. It's more likely to be 'Wow, how many left feet (and hands) can one guy have'.

I don't think men only classes would work. Men need to learn to lead more than they need to learn style. I can definitely see a place for more lead and follow workshops. If men lack the confidence to get up and dance freestyle because they believe, often quite rightly, that they can't lead a good dance, then that is what they need to be taught. If they don't get taught that, they may well not hang around for the freestyle and probably won't come back for the lesson next week...

So would it be helpful, say, if some of the women were 'marked' (T-shirt/coloured wrist band etc) as being 'supportive' or a 'comfort zone''. Like Ceroc's taxi dancers ... but more social ... they could relied upon to be reasonable followers, smile, not 'play' too much and throw the poor improving guy off his stride completely and not give feedback unless asked or they were in danger of being hurt.

From some of the comments so far, it seems that guys who managed to stay long enough to actually learn to dance often had a sympathetic woman alongside them. So could complete beginners be grouped or paired up with a beginner or improver woman - like a dance buddy?

Would it be helpful to have a guy mentor as well - someone who could encourage the beginner to get past the initial few nights without giving up by sharing their own experiences and being a role model?

JonD
20th-December-2005, 03:16 PM
When I'm coaching I normally ask my group to "look out for each other", particularly those that have come on their own, so that they always have someone to sit with and someone to dance with. That was important to me - I "teamed up" with a fellow beginner after my first night's consolidation class and we danced together a lot in my first month or so.

In the freestyle I will normally dance with all the ladies I've coached and I try to pair up the guys with a sympathetic and competent lady dancer for at least one dance. There are about 6 or 7 ladies that I know will give the beginner guys a good dance and be encouraging and helpful without trying to "coach" them - they aren't "marked" though! Sometimes I fail because it can be difficult to find a moment when the beginner, one of my helpful ladies and I are all off the dance floor at the same time.

"Male mentoring" could be more difficult. I'm sure the majority of male coaches/taxis reassure the new guys: I'm always telling the story of how I shook with terror (quite literally - my hand was trembling) in my first class. We also offer words of encouragement when asked. However, it can be difficult when the beginners motivation is clearly very different to your own. I was sitting chatting to a group of non-dancaholic guys the other night and their focus was simply on getting to a standard where they could avoid making a fool of themselves on the dance floor - their night was about meeting ladies, the dancing is just the mechanism for that. Introduce the wrong beginner to the wrong mentor and you could end up with a school of sharks!

LMC
20th-December-2005, 03:29 PM
Many of the men at my local venue come along with wives/partners. It is *incredibly* difficult sometimes to ask a someone to dance if their spouse/partner is sat right next to them, not dancing - some couples seem to stick to each other like glue.

Tiggs suggested approaching said couple with a guy in tow who can ask the woman to dance - but even this seems to get a bunny-in-headlights look sometimes and given that there are usually too many women, is not always possible.

Teachers and taxis could help here by emphasising that the way to improve fastest is by dancing with as many different people as possible and perhaps giving some advice on "how to behave if you want to get asked to dance" - i.e. stay as close to the edge of the floor as possible rather than sitting behind a table (if applicable); you're less likely to get asked if you are sat very close to your (life) partner, even if you're not actually in conversation; put the drink DOWN unless you are actually drinking, etc etc - I'm sure there are others.

foxylady
20th-December-2005, 03:46 PM
..... John Travolta, Patrick Swayze and Brendon Cole combined :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

(not helping I know !)

doc martin
20th-December-2005, 04:46 PM
So would it be helpful, say, if some of the women were 'marked' (T-shirt/coloured wrist band etc) as being 'supportive' or a 'comfort zone''. Like Ceroc's taxi dancers ... but more social ... they could relied upon to be reasonable followers, smile, not 'play' too much and throw the poor improving guy off his stride completely and not give feedback unless asked or they were in danger of being hurt.

From some of the comments so far, it seems that guys who managed to stay long enough to actually learn to dance often had a sympathetic woman alongside them. So could complete beginners be grouped or paired up with a beginner or improver woman - like a dance buddy?

Would it be helpful to have a guy mentor as well - someone who could encourage the beginner to get past the initial few nights without giving up by sharing their own experiences and being a role model?
JonD has commented far more knowledgably than I could on these very sensible ideas. I would like to say though that, as far as I can see, the biggest problem is getting the men there in the first place. As HeatherX said:

I see men beginners coming either on their own, or with a female partner - only rarely with a guy. But female beginners sometimes come in packs of three or four!
Can you imagine a bunch of guys in the office on a Thursday afternoon saying "What do you fancy doing this evening".... "I know let's all go together to a dance class". It just wouldn't happen.

Until it becomes acceptable for blokes to come along with their mates to learn ot dance the inbalance will always be there. From old films and such like, I am pretty sure it was a problem even in the days when the only thing to do on a Saturday evening was to go to the local dance hall. Now, when there are so many other possibilities, there would have to be a major swing (pun intended) in the perception of dance.

And where would such a change in attitude come from? I think that the success of Darren Gough and Colin Jackson in SCD has had an effect. There are reports that it is almost impossible to find a ballroom teacher these days. But how long that effect will last I am not sure. Until the next TV inspired trend I suspect.

I should be encouraging all my male work mates and friends to come and try Ceroc, but to be honest it is much easier to ask the ladies. I know that they are going to be more receptive.

I suppose that, in the end, I am pessimistic of any major change unless and until partner dancing becomes a part of yoof culture. Could that happen? Who knows what the young think :rolleyes:

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
I hope you're going to clean that mess off of the floor before we dance.

LMC
20th-December-2005, 04:55 PM
I think Chicklet's idea of advertising in cricket clubs was a good one.

But the fire stations suggestion on the Missing Men thread is better :drool:

Seriously, targeting advertising to where there are more men would seem to make sense - does anyone know whether any of the guys mags have ever done/would be interested in an article? - Mens Health/similar rather than lad-mags like Zoo which might over-emphasise the "pull" angle :S

ducasi
20th-December-2005, 04:59 PM
When I started it was only this forum that kept me going. You can read about my early days in my blog (link below) or here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4797).

I don't know how I would have made it through otherwise – probably some other source of "peer pressure", support and advice. Don't know where that would have come from though, as I hardly knew anybody else who did Ceroc.

It was the constant feeling of "I'll never be able to do this" which was the biggest problem for me. What would have helped? Not sure. A full beginners' workshop the first few weeks maybe...

David Bailey
20th-December-2005, 05:03 PM
Is the problem (and I agree it's a problem, and I'd also prefer more even numbers):
- not enough men starting?
- not enough men continuing and freestyling?
- both?

From a marketing perspective, are you talking about increasing acquisition (more men in the door) or retention (more men kept dancing)?

I don't have any figures for either of these, but any solution would first of all have to define the problem correctly.

Acquisition (or recruitment)-related activities would include advertising / recruiting in male-heavy areas as suggested. Retention-related activities would include activities such as mentoring (interesting idea), financial incentives (male discounts), more training and encouragement and so on.

The trouble is, for a money-oriented venue manager, it doesn't matter that much whether it's a male or female who hands over the dosh - and the solutions are not likely to generate more revenue - in fact they're likely to cost more, and to be more difficult to organise.

Which is why we should :clap: any organisers brave enough to run events where they make efforts to ensure even numbers.

clevedonboy
20th-December-2005, 05:12 PM
DJ is right about the retention thing - I've seen lots of men start, come for lessons for a while then I don't see them again. Even if this was similar to the number of women who do this more emphasis on keeping beginner men would seem sensible.

Interestingly (well to me) there is anecdotal evidence of there being more males than Females who dance Lindy - backed up by the class I go to where there do tend to be a couple of extra men when it comes to intermediates.

Minnie M
20th-December-2005, 05:17 PM
Advertise at cricket clubs?
(seriously)
:clap: :worthy: :yeah: :clap: and rugby clubs too :yeah:
I look forward to dancing with lots of "Darren Goff" look-a-likes :yum: :drool:

clevedonboy
20th-December-2005, 05:21 PM
:clap: :worthy: :yeah: :clap: and rugby clubs too :yeah:

I think they might need a bit more than a waft of Lynx before they are acceptable dance partners though

http://wesclark.com/rrr/muddy_fran_cotton.jpg

Minnie M
20th-December-2005, 05:26 PM
I think they might need a bit more than a waft of Lynx before they are acceptable dance partners though
bet he scrubs up well though :whistle:

clevedonboy
20th-December-2005, 05:32 PM
A clean one for Minnie - he needs a few tips on what to do with his hands before he tries out for SCD series 4

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_rugby/COTTON_F_19771210_GH_L.jpg

under par
20th-December-2005, 06:37 PM
I don't know how to harper link so sorry if you have read this elsewhere on another thread but its worth including in this thread too I believe.


I think it is very important that MJ operators think about how to increase the numbers of males attending events, how to retain them and also how to get their dancing skills up to an acceptable standard.

I have previously started a thread about what is needed to be done to retain and train the many males who fall away from MJ at the early stages.

IMHO the MJ world revolves around having enough males/leaders at an event to satisfy the needs of all the females/followers who have paid to dance.

I think it is the responsibility of MJ operators to seek to have enough suitably trained males/leaders for the equivalent amount of females/followers attending and people like Russell and Jive addiction and now Funky Lush and Ceroc Storm are to be congratulated for taking up the cause to provide a better event for females/followers and by refusing to take the extra money money and providing a substandard product for the followers/females.

MJ and the dance world in general has this problem that without the leaders they do not have a product.

What too many operators do is provide the hall the music the class without having a strategy for providing the main ingredient ....good male leads.

IF I was to try and provide this product and hope for a good financial return the the main strategy I would look to follow would be male/leader provision and male/leader training and retention.

The number one complaint I hear repeatedly at MJ events is about the lack of leaders/males which is also translated as TOO MANY women.

Its not rocket science, if any operator took the long term view and invested in the enlisting, training and retention of males/followers they would have a licence to print money because there are so many ladies out there who love to dance, far more IMHO than there are men.

If Wills suggestion was taken as part of a strategy to create the ideal MJ enviroment for all the participants then I for one would vote for it but the ability to go for free is not a benefit on its own I would personally go for.


So in conclusion men getting in for free is not the cure on its own there needs to be some joined up thinking by MJ operators.. if someone seriously wants to make a lot of money offering the BEST product in the market then adherence to my strategy above would be a good starting point.

I offer these thoughts for free to any that wish to take up the challenge.

A better MJ life for all is the utopia we all want to see come to life ....go on someone try to make the difference!

HeatherX
20th-December-2005, 06:51 PM
Agreed that without good leads you don't even have a product to market....and long term, ladies too will cease to come. My experience of Lindy/Swing is they are top heavy with ladies as well, so it's a dance issue, I reckon, more than a MJ issue.

Have we any evidence that Ceroc 'central' is looking at this from a marketing perspective? They are into marketing - hence the corporate branding, the careful advice to franchisees to defend their class, and stuff like the DVD. I don't know if they are really that bothered about getting more men along. A lack of men is seen as something that happens, and nothing can be done about it, so lets just take the cash of those ladies and men who do come and make the most of it! This is not a criticism, especially. Ceroc have a brilliant product, and the teaching model means that not only can most people become 'good enough' dancers, but most teachers can become 'good enough' teachers. But the incentive to market to men may not be there.

Feelingpink
20th-December-2005, 07:08 PM
Reading a few of the latter threads, it also makes me think of some marketing articles I've been reading recently. That it is cheaper and easier to retain clients. That the top five companies in various industries (apparently) have client retention rates of around 90% while the average is around 80%. One of the best things you can do to retain clients is to say "thank you".

So, does anyone know if these things are taken into consideration in any of the MJ organisations? And I also wonder if there is a higher "churn" rate of dancers in London than in the remainder of the country, given its high number of geographically mobile youngish professionals (who I would have thought fitted the MJ profile - not that I have anything scientific to base this on).

David Bailey
20th-December-2005, 09:59 PM
Reading a few of the latter threads, it also makes me think of some marketing articles I've been reading recently. That it is cheaper and easier to retain clients.
4 to 5 times cheaper to retain than to recruit I believe.


That the top five companies in various industries (apparently) have client retention rates of around 90% while the average is around 80%.
Dunno, sounds a bit like an urban myth to me...


One of the best things you can do to retain clients is to say "thank you".
Ooh, yes.


So, does anyone know if these things are taken into consideration in any of the MJ organisations? And I also wonder if there is a higher "churn" rate of dancers in London than in the remainder of the country, given its high number of geographically mobile youngish professionals (who I would have thought fitted the MJ profile - not that I have anything scientific to base this on).
IMO, the key business differentiator of Ceroc as a business is the fact that they have a much much higher retention rate than other dance organisations. Typical Salsa classes in Central London used to have beginner turnover rates of 50% or more - imagine how much effort it takes to recruit new starters for these guys...

Gadget
21st-December-2005, 03:56 AM
I think that this retention thing is closley related to my the "Ceroc Model" and long term dancers (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7197) thread: you need these long term dancers to attend to be good role-models and help with the up and coming dancers.

MartinHarper
21st-December-2005, 12:05 PM
So would it be helpful, say, if some of the women were 'marked' (T-shirt/coloured wrist band etc) as being 'supportive' or a 'comfort zone''. Like Ceroc's taxi dancers ... but more social ... they could relied upon to be reasonable followers, smile, not 'play' too much and throw the poor improving guy off his stride completely ....

Most women are like that with beginners anyway.
So, just ban the ones who aren't.
It'd help the numbers problem in two ways.

bigdjiver
21st-December-2005, 09:18 PM
It by no means a rule that there is always an majority of females. There were 11 men moving on the other week at St. Neots in the intermediate class, and there have regularly been even numbers in Bedford on a Monday.

David Bailey
21st-December-2005, 10:07 PM
It by no means a rule that there is always an majority of females. There were 11 men moving on the other week at St. Neots in the intermediate class, and there have regularly been even numbers in Bedford on a Monday.
I've been thinking about this and I agree - typically in intermediates classes, any disparity is less (or reversed). But there's definitely an imbalance (more women) in most beginner classes, and similarly in (non-ratio-controlled) freestyles and weekenders.

Hmmm...

David Bailey
21st-December-2005, 10:08 PM
OK, my Grand Theory Of Relative Numbers is as follows:
1. More women start Ceroc than men (cause: general non-dancing culture for men), so there are less men in beginner classes
2. Proportionately more men do intermediate classes (cause: men get more out of these classes than women), so there are more even numbers in intermediate classes
3. However, more women than men go to freestyle nights or weekeneders (cause: women go in groups more than men), so the imbalance is still there.

Comments?

Minnie M
21st-December-2005, 10:36 PM
..... more women than men go to freestyle nights or weekeneders (cause: women go in groups more than men), so the imbalance is still there.

Comments?
I have found that a lot of married women go dancing, as a great hobby/exercise, leaving their football; golf or couch potatoe etc., husbands doing their thing :whistle:
so..... can we encourage the married ladies to encourage their husbands to
join us :D

( the only dancing wife whose husband joined later that I know of is UP

philsmove
21st-December-2005, 11:18 PM
. can we encourage the married ladies to encourage their husbands to
join us :D

]

I think there is a toast along on the lines of

“ To husbands and boyfriends…… may they never meet”:whistle:

Tessalicious
22nd-December-2005, 05:33 PM
IMHO, a lot more guys would be prepared to have a go at dancing if there were fewer incriminating rumours about what being a good dancer means in other aspects of an individual.

For example, if a man knows the urban myth "Men who dance well are also good lovers" (which, lets face it, most people have heard a few times), it doesn't take a long process of deduction (however illogical and incorrect - i.e., male) to assume that the opposite is true - "if a man can't dance, he's obviously rubbish in bed".

That being foremost in a guy's mind, where exactly is the motive to go along to a dance class where a) he's not going to get it straight away, because it's a bit more complicated than standing in close with a partner and swaying side to side and b) he's terrified that any woman in the room that sees him make a single mistake or look even remotely silly for a minute will assume that he's all gangly bits and no trousers :whistle: ?

Unfortunately, the slightly more encouraging "Men that can learn to make their dance partners feel special can often do the same in the bedroom and therefore are also likely to be good lovers, but there are exceptions both ways round so don't be put off, 'cos dancing is just a bit of fun anyway" is a bit longwinded so less likely to catch on. Oh well, it seems like we're probably stuck with a minority of men actually being brave enough to bite the bullet and learn to dance...

Lee
22nd-December-2005, 05:37 PM
IMHO, a lot more guys would be prepared to have a go at dancing if there were fewer incriminating rumours about what being a good dancer means in other aspects of an individual.

For example, if a man knows the urban myth "Men who dance well are also good lovers" (which, lets face it, most people have heard a few times), it doesn't take a long process of deduction (however illogical and incorrect - i.e., male) to assume that the opposite is true - "if a man can't dance, he's obviously rubbish in bed".

That being foremost in a guy's mind, where exactly is the motive to go along to a dance class where a) he's not going to get it straight away, because it's a bit more complicated than standing in close with a partner and swaying side to side and b) he's terrified that any woman in the room that sees him make a single mistake or look even remotely silly for a minute will assume that he's all gangly bits and no trousers :whistle: ?

Unfortunately, the slightly more encouraging "Men that can learn to make their dance partners feel special can often do the same in the bedroom and therefore are also likely to be good lovers, but there are exceptions both ways round so don't be put off, 'cos dancing is just a bit of fun anyway" is a bit longwinded so less likely to catch on. Oh well, it seems like we're probably stuck with a minority of men actually being brave enough to bite the bullet and learn to dance...


Fair point, well what about if Ceroc ran some Male only beginners days (on Sundays) for new men only, but provide more experienced women for them to practise with. I would have jumped at that rather than knowing I was also practising with a new lady.

Just thinking out loud.

Lee

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 05:41 PM
all gangly bits and no trousershehehehehe

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-December-2005, 05:42 PM
Fair point, well what about if Ceroc ran some Male only beginners days (on Sundays) for new men only, but provide more experienced women for them to practise with. I would have jumped at that rather than knowing I was also practising with a new lady.
LeeI was the opposite. It's much scarier dancing with an experienced woman than a novice, in your first few weeks. The experienced partner knows exactly what kind of cool dance you aren't managing to do together.

doc martin
22nd-December-2005, 05:59 PM
IMHO, a lot more guys would be prepared to have a go at dancing if there were fewer incriminating rumours about what being a good dancer means in other aspects of an individual.

For example, if a man knows the urban myth "Men who dance well are also good lovers" (which, lets face it, most people have heard a few times), it doesn't take a long process of deduction (however illogical and incorrect - i.e., male) to assume that the opposite is true - "if a man can't dance, he's obviously rubbish in bed".

That being foremost in a guy's mind, where exactly is the motive to go along to a dance class where a) he's not going to get it straight away, because it's a bit more complicated than standing in close with a partner and swaying side to side and b) he's terrified that any woman in the room that sees him make a single mistake or look even remotely silly for a minute will assume that he's all gangly bits and no trousers :whistle: ?

Unfortunately, the slightly more encouraging "Men that can learn to make their dance partners feel special can often do the same in the bedroom and therefore are also likely to be good lovers, but there are exceptions both ways round so don't be put off, 'cos dancing is just a bit of fun anyway" is a bit longwinded so less likely to catch on. Oh well, it seems like we're probably stuck with a minority of men actually being brave enough to bite the bullet and learn to dance...
All very true. So why do men start? In my case I suppose a combination of factors.

Exercise. I was fed up with the gym and, in Scotland in Winter, it is approaching suicidal to attempt any form of outdoor activity.
I always enjoyed moving to music.
It was something my partner and I could learn together.


And why did I persevere?

I did pick it up quite quickly (even if I say so myself).
I'm old enough and confident enough to not care too much about looking a fool. I accept it as the status quo with my usual bad grace.
My partner was very supportive, even when I got grumpy about things not going right.
There was a fun atmosphere in the class.


I guess most of these factors are individual to me. The importance of support from the ladies has been mentioned in this thread more than once and for guys who don't bring along their own pillar, how helpful the regular ladies are must make a difference to how likely the men are to persevere. All the classes I have been to seem to understand the importance of making learning fun, although some teachers are naturally better entertainers than others.

btw, where I have highlighted it in the quote... what it were you referring to, the vertical or the horizontal :whistle:

Fair point, well what about if Ceroc ran some Male only beginners days (on Sundays) for new men only, but provide more experienced women for them to practise with. I would have jumped at that rather than knowing I was also practising with a new lady.
Sounds like the practise the nobility used to have (probably still have, I don't move in those circles) of sending their sons to a "lady of the night" to learn the ropes before marriage.
Edit: Perhaps some of the ladies of the forum might not appreciate being cast in this light :sorry

Tessalicious
22nd-December-2005, 06:02 PM
btw, where I have highlighted it in the quote... what it were you referring to, the vertical or the horizontal :whistle:Well, the vertical, but now you mention it...

Sounds like the practise the nobility used to have (probably still have, I don't move in those circles) of sending their sons to a "lady of the night" to learn the ropes before marriage.:what: is that the role that female taxis play then?

doc martin
22nd-December-2005, 06:05 PM
is that the role that female taxis play then?
I would not want to be seen to be casting nasturtiums.

LMC
22nd-December-2005, 06:17 PM
:what: is that the role that female taxis play then?
Well, it suddenly makes me feel like I'm a lot more "interesting" :whistle:

let me keep my little illusion please?

Andreas
22nd-December-2005, 06:18 PM
That being foremost in a guy's mind, where exactly is the motive to go along to a dance class where a) he's not going to get it straight, because it's a bit more complicated than standing in close with a partner and swaying it from side to side and b) he's terrified that any woman in the room that sees him makes the single mistake to look even remotely silky for a minute assumimg that he's all gangly bits and no trousers :whistle: ?

I had to read that a few times before I got all the intricate innuendos of that paragraph. You sure are a handful :yum:


Unfortunately, the slightly more encouraging "Men that can learn to make their dance partners feel that special bit can often do the same in the bedroom and therefore are also likely to be good lovers, but there are exceptions both ways round so don't be put off, 'cos dancing is just fun with the bit anyway" is a bit longwinded so less likely to catch on. Oh well, it seems like we're probably stuck with a minority of women actually being brave enough to bite the bullet or whatever you call it and learn to dance...

Not going to ask where that statistic came from but we sure are happy about the last bit :whistle:

doc martin
22nd-December-2005, 06:26 PM
let me keep my little illusion please?
Is this illusion as in magic trick? Does it have anything to do with making things disappear? I like those sorts of tricks :clap:

LMC
31st-December-2005, 06:05 PM
Well, someone last night mentioned a MJ NYE party in Cheshunt, and my reaction was :what: who?

So, have never heard of this organisation before, but on checking their website, it looks like they do men only beginners' workshops - http://www.justjivin.co.uk/workshops.htm

Anyone else ever come across Just Jivin'?

stewart38
31st-December-2005, 06:22 PM
I hate it when the men are hugely outnumbered. I am very good about dancing with new men, and I do so every week, and I hope I am encouraging. But I don't think this will solve the problem.




Just for women who have never been to ceroc/jive please dont read this thread and think women out number men 5 to 1 . Many dance nights in the South East have more men (at present) at classes then women
A few weekenders there is some imbalance

Women who dont ASK a man to dance is the main reason for them to feel their missing out.

I went line dancing for over 2 years but stop when we had 4 men and 95 women, thats an imbalance

Guildford 1994 ceroc 200 people 40 extra women over thats an imbalance

Chesham last night 250+ people in intermediate and what 3 or 4 women over

LMC
31st-December-2005, 06:29 PM
Chesham last night 250+ people in intermediate and what 3 or 4 women over
In the class, yes. But trust me, there were *way* more women than men sitting on the sidelines during the freestyle. And the freestyle is the main point of the evening.

It is sometimes discouraging when it feels like you are ALWAYS the one doing the asking.

Andreas
1st-January-2006, 04:00 PM
In the class, yes. But trust me, there were *way* more women than men sitting on the sidelines during the freestyle. And the freestyle is the main point of the evening.

It is sometimes discouraging when it feels like you are ALWAYS the one doing the asking.
I guess that means you female folk have to find a way that makes the men rather dance with you than among each other. :yum: :rofl:

stewart38
2nd-January-2006, 04:12 AM
In the class, yes. But trust me, there were *way* more women than men sitting on the sidelines during the freestyle. And the freestyle is the main point of the evening.

It is sometimes discouraging when it feels like you are ALWAYS the one doing the asking.

Thats not to do with numbers its because many women never ask men, they will sit there all night and that puts men of anyway

The ratio was fairly even

I do the asking 90% of the time there so why shouldnt women ?

Its an Educational thing

Robin
2nd-January-2006, 11:23 AM
Unfortunately, the slightly more encouraging "Men that can learn to make their dance partners feel special can often do the same in the bedroom and therefore are also likely to be good lovers {snipped}

...and is the same true of women ?

WittyBird
2nd-January-2006, 11:26 AM
...and is the same true of women ?

You need to ask? :confused:

Tessalicious
2nd-January-2006, 11:31 AM
...and is the same true of women ?I wouldn't know, I go to Ceroc to dance, not to pull women :devil:

LMC
2nd-January-2006, 11:40 AM
Thats not to do with numbers its because many women never ask men, they will sit there all night and that puts men of anyway

The ratio was fairly even

I do the asking 90% of the time there so why shouldnt women ?

Its an Educational thing
I think we've already established on other threads that most forumite women will ask (I certainly do). If fabulous dancers like ZW, Cruella, Miss Conduct and others have problems finding men, then that says it all to me.

Numbers are more even at some venues than others. At the Casbah a couple of weeks ago there were more men than women in intermediate class - but still more women than men sitting out during freestyle.

There are usually more women than men at an MJ event unless the organiser ensures even numbers.


I wouldn't know, I go to Ceroc to dance, not to pull women :devil:
You don't yank darling, you're a fabulous lead :innocent:

Robin
2nd-January-2006, 11:42 AM
I wouldn't know, I go to Ceroc to dance, not to pull women :devil:

I didn;t realise I was insinuating :blush:

Really though - I'm curious from the men's point of view..

tsh
2nd-January-2006, 01:16 PM
I think we've already established on other threads that most forumite women will ask (I certainly do). If fabulous dancers like ZW, Cruella, Miss Conduct and others have problems finding men, then that says it all to me.


You're forgetting that for a lead, dancing with a good follower does not magically make you feel that you're dancing well. It sometimes makes you wonder why you kept coming back to all those classes, cause you don't seem to have learnt anything!

The one thing which probably made most difference to keep me coming back was a small number of better (doesn't matter how much better) ladies who would regularly ask me to dance - which made them much less scary than everyone else. Taxi's don't count, because they're only doing their job, but knowing that someone thinks you're worth percevering with makes a huge difference.

Sean

RogerR
2nd-January-2006, 01:32 PM
OK! I wanna tell you a story!

I've danced MJ for a while and wanted to start Argentine Tango I joined a balanced class of 16. We were taught by one of london's better teachers until we had an initial ability to dance freestyle AT. Then we were taken to a friendly milonga, the girls chased the established men (and were unpopular with their wives) the small group of men left the event without dancing and left AT. Only one of those girls stayed with AT and she now leads because there are not enough men!

Men and women are different they think differently and progress differently, yet we try to dance together! Women go to dance, men go to meet women to dance with! Without care the frisson of excitement turns into the friction of unpleasantness.
A beginner girl has to learn to follow and likely from a background including dancing (baby ballet to disco) also she attends with a supportive group of girl friends.
A beginner guy has to learn to lead from a background of notdancing and must avoid bringing "mates" along who will take the P*** out of all of his efforts .

Progressing beginner women can ask an ace man for a dance and follow competently within probably two classes, they are then hooked on a long dancing hobby.
Progressing beginner men cannot lead a satisfying dance with an ace follower for several months (or years!)

Good leads are made by their dance relationships if there is no dance relationship no lead develops, and I think that a room full of really good leads would be a plus point for the women dancers.

There is NO magic carpet that will populate a room with good looking, good leading men who dont want to "meet" you again (horizontally). Good leads are made by women for women and unless women put the effort into bringing on beginners then there will always be a shortage of men and an even greater shortage of good leads.

David Bailey
2nd-January-2006, 04:55 PM
I wouldn't know, I go to Ceroc to dance, not to pull women :devil:
Well, that's my fantasy ruined :tears:

Zebra Woman
2nd-January-2006, 05:09 PM
Well, that's my fantasy ruined :tears:

And mine...:tears: :tears: :tears:

ZW:devil:

Zebra Woman
2nd-January-2006, 05:25 PM
There is NO magic carpet that will populate a room with good looking, good leading men who dont want to "meet" you again (horizontally). Good leads are made by women for women and unless women put the effort into bringing on beginners then there will always be a shortage of men and an even greater shortage of good leads.

Agree with you Roger - we women reap what we sow. If we don't take part in the nurturing of the male leads at some point in their careers then we will all be paying the price later on. And it won't be pretty.:sad:

Personally I like gentle impressionable beginners, but most of all I enjoy 'nurturing' leads at the 6 months - 1 year stage.

It is by no means a one way street either. I learned a helluvalot about dancing from UP, Marc Forster, Capt Fantastic, SF and many other non-forumites .....all when they were at this early stage in their dancing careers.

Thanks guys :hug:


ZW

Rhythm King
2nd-January-2006, 05:57 PM
I wouldn't know, I go to Ceroc to dance, not to pull women :devil:

So where do you go to pull women? :whistle:

Rhythm King
2nd-January-2006, 06:01 PM
OK! I wanna tell you a story!

~snip~

Lot's of really good points.


:yeah: Well said - have some rep.

Ladies - the ball is in your court, or if you want to dance at the ball, nurture more beginner men. Do the classes, ask the chaps standing nervously on the side to dance - and don't bully them if they get it wrong - you'll scare them off.

Tessalicious
2nd-January-2006, 07:04 PM
And mine...:tears: :tears: :tears:

ZW:devil:Don't worry doll, you can have me anytime, as long as you ask nicely :wink:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-January-2006, 07:06 PM
And mine...:tears: :tears: :tears:

ZW:devil:Honestly, you two, just get a room... (here, borrow my key)

RogerR
2nd-January-2006, 08:17 PM
Certainly in metropolitan areas women go to a dance class as a "Gymn after work workout" Men go to a dance to meet someone to dance with. An acceptance of this is the beginning of wisdom. If you are to dance a partner dance there must be space in your life for this 3 minute dance relationship, if you must dance near someone without contact or communication then you have just insulted them - even if you dont want him you need him there to release other men to dance with you

Zebra Woman
2nd-January-2006, 08:17 PM
Honestly, you two, just get a room... (here, borrow my key)

Ha I know your game ESG

...I bet there's a one way mirror and secret camera.


Oh and sorry, I missed your name off my list of DIL's (Delightfully Impressionable Leads):

UP, Marc Forster, Capt Fantastic, SF and ESG :flower:


ZW

Clive Long
2nd-January-2006, 08:21 PM
I wouldn't know, I go to Ceroc to dance, not to pull women

So where do you go to pull women? :whistle:
And what do you pull when you find them?

I am finding this thread educational, disturbing and more than a little arousing the more I read.

Woger