The 'rights' and 'wrongs' of musicality

[Sparkles]

Say "Musicality" to anyone at the moment and they seem to go running for the hills :eek: , but this is a topic that has been on my mind since the last jive masters competition so I thought I'd ask:

Is there a 'right' and a 'wrong' to musical interpretation for a specific piece of music?

I know when I listen to any given piece of music there are parts (whether it's a certain beat or a certain instrument or whatever) that stand out to me, but I also know - from various dances that have not gone so well - that other people do not necessarily hear the same things as me in a piece of music.

This is all well and good, variety being the spice of life and all that, but there are situations when this becomes a bit of a hurdle...

For example - there are certain dancers that I hear the girls raving about, they tell me that "'so and so' is a wonderful dancer" and go all gooey over them - but I just don't get it :confused: . Whenever I dance with those people I feel like I'm on a completely different planet because, even though there's only one song playing, in our heads we're dancing to completely different parts of the music and it doesn't work at all.

Another example is to go back to the jive masters example again - in this competition a lot of emphasis was placed on musicality, and I heard on numerous occasions members of the audience (aka the judges) commenting on a lack of musical interpretation from the competitiors. It strikes me that this is unfair, as the competitors may be dancing completely musically - just not to the same 'bits' ('highlights I suppose I should call them) that the audience-member heard.

The only way I can see the resolve this is for everyone that dances to sit around with every piece of music and agree which parts of the music should be highlighted :rolleyes: .
Without going to this rediculous extreme, how are we to find the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of musicality?

[David Franklin]

I'm not sure it's as simple as 'rights' and 'wrongs'. If you look at movies or theatre, different directors will have very different interpretations of the same work. So we have a classical theatrical performance of Romeo and Juliet, a classical ballet, an "up-to-date" performance considering the Capulets and Montagues as warring 'hoods, etc... These are all very different performances, but they all aim to strike some resonance with the audience. Similarly in dancing, there are usually several things overlayed in the music - you can't interpret all of them, but you want there to be some resonance, or connection between your dancing and the music. (Well, actually, you want there to be a lot of it!).

I think you can only really be "wrong" if you fail to strike that resonance in the minds of your audience and/or dance partner. And even then I put "wrong" in quotes, because a different audience might see things differently.

But in practical terms, there are certain things you need to do if you're not going to lose your audience. Dancing off beat is going to put a lot of people off unless you can convince them there's a really good reason behind it. Just as most interpretations of a play will keep the act structure broadly intact, you probably shouldn't ignore the phrases and breaks in the music. And just like a stage performance, many consider the ideal is a themed and structured dance that seems to progress through an arc to a well thought out ending, rather than just gradually fading away into oblivion, rather like this sentence... :wink:

[JonD]

Good stuff ...
I agree that there isn't a "right" way to interpret music. So much of it is an emotional response and that can vary depending on mood, partner or environment. I guess we all tend to use the same reference points - the beat, breaks, lyric etc. - but our interpretation will vary enormously. I did a series of AT workshops at the weekend and Eric, a brilliant teacher, was talking about "leaving the beat and moving into infinity"; that moment when your movement stops being tied to the beat and hangs delicously in space, music and connection. You can never replicate that sort of thing - it just happens (all too rarely in my case).


For example - there are certain dancers ......
I find it fascinating that people hear music in so many different ways. Julie and I tend to hear music the same way and that creates a wonderful sympathy between us when we're dancing. Sometimes I dance with people who hear a track completely differently to me: I was dancing with a lady last Thursday who looked absolutely bemused at what I was doing! She's a fine follower and dancer but I could see her trying to work out why I was phrasing things the way I was. There was nothing wrong with her dancing and nothing wrong with mine but we just didn't "fit" to that particular piece of music. On other occasions, particularly when I'm tired, the music seems to just "bounce off" - I can't feel it and so whatever musicality I have vanishes completely. My dancing becomes mechanical and unsatisfying.

So, in my opinion, there are no rights or wrongs (but I still can't understand what moves people to do Charleston kicks to "The Way You Look Tonight").

[Trish]

Is there a 'right' and a 'wrong' to musical interpretation for a specific piece of music?

I know when I listen to any given piece of music there are parts (whether it's a certain beat or a certain instrument or whatever) that stand out to me, but I also know - from various dances that have not gone so well - that other people do not necessarily hear the same things as me in a piece of music.


I agree, this happens to me sometimes, I also think some people are just not on the same wavelength as you, and you watch them dancing with other people really well (and other followers are raving about them), but you just don't enjoy the same experience :sad: .

I tend to try really hard to tune into whatever my partner is dancing to, so for example if they seem to be interpreting something in the music I'll try to work out which instrument or whatever. It doesn't always work, but I'm lucky as I studied music for years, so I can almost retune into different bits sometimes. I think listening to lots of songs in a slightly analytical way can help this.

I agree with David Franklin:


Dancing off beat is going to put a lot of people off unless you can convince them there's a really good reason behind it. Just as most interpretations of a play will keep the act structure broadly intact, you probably shouldn't ignore the phrases and breaks in the music.

Other than that, anything else is just that person's interpretation, and the follower should follow it if they can, or if they just don't get it then either ignore it, or leave that leader to the followers that do "get" him. It can happen, but it doesn't very often spoil the dance to that extent!

[jivecat]

I tend to try really hard to tune into whatever my partner is dancing to, so for example if they seem to be interpreting something in the music I'll try to work out which instrument or whatever.




I agree, I think this is the best thing to do. There's no point in a battle of wills to see who can get their interpretation to dominate!
As long as the "difficulty" is not caused by incompetence (eg not being capable of dancing to the beat) then I've found it really worthwhile to stick with it, and try to work out where my partner is coming from, musically speaking. Some of my favourite dancing relationships have started out like this, with me being at a loss to know how to respond to a challenging lead, but gradually learning.
I also really like dancing with people with very different styles from my own. Sometimes I get bored with my own dancing, whatever the track there I am doing the same old stuff, so it's good for me to get jolted out of that once in a while.

[spindr]

Of course there's a right way (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/londoncuts/articles/21186117):


There is an etiquette when dancing of course. "Complete inexperience can be an excuse for dancing faux pas. But you must stick to the correct dance for the song - not doing a jive to a quickstep," says Anton.
...or a cha cha :)

SpinDr

[robd]

(but I still can't understand what moves people to do Charleston kicks to "The Way You Look Tonight").

Or any move involving kicks at all at any time............................

[Gadget]

Without going to this rediculous extreme, how are we to find the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of musicality?
Depends on what you inteperate the term "Muscality" to mean :wink:

Personally, I dissagree with SpinDr's AntonDB quote: I everyone arround you is dancing one way, then the easiest way to have your dancing stand out is if you dance another way.

Musicality to me is a combination of dancing to the music and dancing with the music:
I'm no musician, but since music and dancing are intrinsically linked, I think that the following analogy works well - When we start dancing, we learn the basic notes; what the little black dots mean (and what movements they correspond to). We can translate the basic pattern of dots(moves) into a basic tune(dance).

When we progress, we learn that the dots may be in the same position, but some of the timing can be changed and we get a hint at fancey things like sliding one note(move) into another and breaks in the music.

Then we realise that to actually play as the composer intended, we have to add some 'emotion' and 'depth' to the music: softer at some bits, harder at others, sharp and crisp or soft and mellow. We find the path of an instrument in the music and try to follow it through the track, perhaps switching to the dominant one every now & again. The structure of the notes played you try to translate into a similar structure of dancing - be this the slides of a guitar or the rhythmic phrasing of lyrics.

At the same time, we can learn that the score is just a guideline and you can add to it while following the same pattern and produce a different sound that you find more pleasing (think of the swing version of Nirvana's "Teen spirit" compared with the origional: the melody is still there, the lyrics are still there, the phrasing and structure is the same... it's just "swing" rather than "garrage".) We can do the same to or dancing: embelish moves and mould them to different styles that we think suit the music.

The next stage in evolution I think is when we cease to dance to what is actually in the music and dance on-top of it. It's like a jazz player just jamming and taking up a spot; by playing, he is adding to the sound and creating his own melody and counter to the other sounds in the band. It intertwines and enriches the music. He can then slip back into the main sound and provide a background for the other players to contrast against or counter. Similarly in dancing, you can dance to nothing specific within the song, but still be dancing to the music - adding to it and working round everything else within the track.

Musicality is all of the above; layered on top of each other. To do it "right", you must be aware of everything below where you are; you can't add notes or styling to a score when you don't know what the existing notes sound like.
To do it "wrong" is simply to 'ignore' the music... but even then, simply counting the beat and dancing on that could be "musicality" as it is the basic groundwork for everything else that follows.



I'm still trying to dance to the sound of the lyrics in a track; what I've found is that only the start point and a few key phrases/rhymes are echoed in the underlying rhythm/beat of most tracks. So I can quite happily ignore the 1-2-1-2- timing during these bits as long as I make sure to mark the start and key points. I've also found when doing this that when you come to a break, the only predominant thing left to listen and dance to is the beat or count - What this means is that while I highlight breaks, generally I contrast most folk on the dance floor.
The plus side to this is that my dancing is inevitable "interesting". The minus is that it can also be "confusing". Especially if you are used to dancing with 'normal' dancers.

[Sparkles]

Another thread started before Chritmas that seemed to get a bit lost.
Maybe in light of the Ceroc champs thread people will have more input here too? :flower:
S. x

[cerocmetro]

Say "Musicality" to anyone at the moment and they seem to go running for the hills :eek: , but this is a topic that has been on my mind since the last jive masters competition so I thought I'd ask:

Is there a 'right' and a 'wrong' to musical interpretation for a specific piece of music?

I know when I listen to any given piece of music there are parts (whether it's a certain beat or a certain instrument or whatever) that stand out to me, but I also know - from various dances that have not gone so well - that other people do not necessarily hear the same things as me in a piece of music.

This is all well and good, variety being the spice of life and all that, but there are situations when this becomes a bit of a hurdle...

For example - there are certain dancers that I hear the girls raving about, they tell me that "'so and so' is a wonderful dancer" and go all gooey over them - but I just don't get it :confused: . Whenever I dance with those people I feel like I'm on a completely different planet because, even though there's only one song playing, in our heads we're dancing to completely different parts of the music and it doesn't work at all.

Another example is to go back to the jive masters example again - in this competition a lot of emphasis was placed on musicality, and I heard on numerous occasions members of the audience (aka the judges) commenting on a lack of musical interpretation from the competitiors. It strikes me that this is unfair, as the competitors may be dancing completely musically - just not to the same 'bits' ('highlights I suppose I should call them) that the audience-member heard.

The only way I can see the resolve this is for everyone that dances to sit around with every piece of music and agree which parts of the music should be highlighted :rolleyes: .
Without going to this rediculous extreme, how are we to find the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of musicality?


Ok lets have a go at a definition;
The ability to dance to the music playing, interpreting the shape, mood and general feel of the music. The ability to share that with a partner. Ultimately, if both partners have it, the lead becomes almost irrelevant. I can dance with certain people and we can dance without holding.

It really only works IMO if there is a chemistry between the dancers. I do not mean they are going to run off the floor and in to bed, but the must be a connection.

Sometimes I connect with girls who there would be no way on this or any other planet I fancy but there is a physical understanding of each other and we are hearing the same music in the same way.

I also believe that anyone who plans moves especially set pieces is going to be very hard pushed to have good musicality, unless of course the set pieces are choregraphed to the music, but even then, and I don't know if I am on my own here or not, might be the drugs, I can listen to a piece of music and it wil sound different every time. depends on your mood, volume, atmosphere in the room etc etc.

Sparkles, you at Hammy on Saturday?
Adam