Leading without being lead.

[Sparkles]

Having been fortunate enough to be lead by some fantasic male dancers I have been reflecting on those dances and have recently made an interesting discovery:
The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

This may not be news to some of you, but it was a revelation to me.
What I mean by it is that the positioning of their body, the way they're looking (ie the direction their eyes move) and other subtleties in their body language indicate to me the movement (or lack of movement) they require me to make before I feel a connection with their hand actually tell me.

So, is this the 'ultimate' in leading (assuming that you don't have e.s.p.)?
Is it something something that guys can or should learn?
Should followers be looking for these little 'signals' or should they just wait for the connection and lead?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

[under par]

Having been fortunate enough to be lead by some fantasic male dancers I have been reflecting on those dances and have recently made an interesting discovery:
The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.
Before I can answer the question do i come into this category?

A lead should be something physical related to the track being played!

Am I missing somethng from your definition and if so what am I doing wrong???

[TiggsTours]

The best is when, as a follower, you learn to do that back to them! From the way you position your body and the eye contact you make, you can say to them "If you lead me into a position that allows it next, I can do something really great", when they lead you there and you get to do your thang, its the best!:drool:

Not many guys can pick up on that subtle reverse lead though, and you need to accept that, and follow what they do, rather than what you want to do.

[gembar]

I'm far too unobservant a wretch to notice such subtleties. For me, the ultimate lead is one I can follow perfectly with my eyes closed! But maybe a lot of it's implicit. e.g. Part of being a good lead is moving out of your partner's way if necessary. Of course, if a guy clears a path for you it's a pretty big visual indication that he wants you to step that way. But it may be misleading, so you can't assume anything until he physically leads you, IMHO.

The really good leaders are probably aware of what, say, their positioning might imply or not imply (in some subconscious, Derren-Brown-like way) about the move coming up. Perhaps stuff like that could be taught. I definitely don't think follows should be taught to look out for such signals though, otherwise it starts to smack of Ceroc signals, which rely on you having been to the same class as the person you're dancing with.

[Gary]

Eyes, body position, posture, hands, elbows, hips, knees, whatever: so long as it gets the idea across, it's all good, and all (by my definition, anyway) leading.

[Gadget]

The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.
I think that you may be mstaking what is happening for visual clues, when it's still physical: {this is stolen from an AT workshop, but I use it in MJ with sucess...}

The lead should have a preperation to it and be given out of time with the lead's movements so that the follower has a chance to actually follow: The order should be lead, lady moves, men follow lady's movement. But it all happens in a moment of time so that everyone moves in time with the music.

The 'preperation' is not 'stopping' the lead or loosing contact; it's just a moment of neutrality a fraction before, or a tensing of muscles to give a 'sense' of change before the physical movement.

I've recently beeen working on timing my lead and trying to incorporate some of this - it's really hard, but when it works, it's like liquid :D Most followers won't even notice that it's there - the lead just gets clearer to them and you both seem to move in unisen. As if by magic :wink:

[Dave Hancock]

The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.


Am not sure if you were lucky enough to see Robert Cordoba when he was across but he did something similar in which the guys had to lead and the ladies follow but without any physical contact, it was a most interesting exercise and all the ladies I danced with immediately afterwards were a lot lighter to lead.

I would totally agree with you that a lot of the really good leads do actually lead before the physical, however for this to really work it's best when dancing with a really good follower.

[Franck]

The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

This may not be news to some of you, but it was a revelation to me.
What I mean by it is that the positioning of their body, the way they're looking (ie the direction their eyes move) and other subtleties in their body language indicate to me the movement (or lack of movement) they require me to make before I feel a connection with their hand actually tell me.I have recently (in the last year or two) become really interested in the theory and concepts of leading and what you describe is very familiar. I would however extend it beyond eyes and body positioning.

For me, pre-lead is more about preparing (or at least being aware of) my partner so that key elements are all optimal:

- her connection (and the level of compression / leverage required).
- her balance (i.e. is she still recovering from a spin for example and ready to commit her momentum in the direction I'm about to lead)
- her weight-distribution (e.g. is she on the correct foot for stepping with me)
- There are other (more subtle) elements, like where she's looking, what she is doing with her hands, whether she has increased the connection herself to hi-jack the dance momentarily for a style fioriture, etc...

Once I'm aware of all the above for my partner, I need to apply the same to myself, including my own position (i.e. will I be in the way when I lead her).

Finally (after paying attention to floorcraft), I can apply a subtle lead and the move happens!

All that prep will happen before any (connection) lead is required and can be achieved with no physical contact.

At the 'Fingertip leading' workshop at the BFG, we spent some time subtly transferring weight from one foot to the other, to indicate (visually but subtly) that we were about to step forward (or back) on (for example) the right foot.

If this is done right, those principles can be applied to most followers and give the impression that somehow all moves work by magic... :D

[Clive Long]

I have a few ideas. I have no idea if they are right or contain any fragment of a good idea.

1. The man / leader must have intention (shamelessly pinched from AT, of course). i.e he must have some idea of what he is trying to achieve. This marks the stage where one has moved on from struggling to remember the details of a move. [OT1]

2. The leader must have a set of consistent body moves and postures e.g. I want to spin the follower so this requires our weight on our feet to start and move in certain way, my head to be facing in a way that is consistent with the intended movement (e.g. not looking at my feet), my torso and arms to be moving in a certain way, a strong enough connection through my arms and torso to transmit my intention, etc.

3. The leader must have confidence to assume and hold the lead. This maybe even more important than any technical issues about body positioning.

4. The woman / follower must accept or at least respond in a "compatible" way to the lead, not fight the lead (this happens, this happens)

I know I keep on linking to Mr. Lloyd (http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/dance/menlead.html) but I make no apology. I think he talks much sense about lead / follow. You may disagree with his reasoning and arguments.

Clive

[OT1] Don't flame (Ok if you must) but I don't agree moves don't matter - try doing a foxtrot when the leader thinks it is OK to put his right foot behind his head. Absurd, I know, but I hope you get my point

[MartinHarper]

The best is when, as a follower, you learn to do that back to them! From the way you position your body and the eye contact you make, you can say to them "If you lead me into a position that allows it next, I can do something really great", when they lead you there and you get to do your thang, its the best!

Yeah, that is pretty good from a leading perspective too. Some followers are much better at doing this reverse cueing, too.

[Sparkles]

I started this thread before Christmas and I think it got a bit lost over the festive season. With all the talk of lead and follow coming up again I thought I'd see if anyone else had something to add on this topic...?

[El Salsero Gringo]

I know it's not quite what you had in mind, but I've now seen Mike Ellard leading by the lady's chin. And then there's Andreas's famous nose-lead. And which forumite is it that leads forehead-to-forehead? I'm getting muddled.

[ducasi]

I started this thread before Christmas and I think it got a bit lost over the festive season. With all the talk of lead and follow coming up again I thought I'd see if anyone else had something to add on this topic...?
I think I understand what you mean... If I hold a door open for you to go through before me, then with my eyes, body posture and manner I am leading you through the door.

I try to do this as much as possible when dancing, though I don't know how good I am at it. I see it in some of the best dancers around here when I watch them though... :worthy:

[David Bailey]

With all the talk of lead and follow coming up again I thought I'd see if anyone else had something to add on this topic...?
Nope. In fact, I'm going to go and hide if I see you again. :blush: :whistle:


And which forumite is it that leads forehead-to-forehead? I'm getting muddled.
Couldn't imagine who'd do anything that strange...

[Msfab]

I think I understand what you mean... If I hold a door open for you to go through before me, then with my eyes, body posture and manner I am leading you through the door.

What he is not opening the door for you but for an other?
This sort of dancing is likely end up in a big mess, if both arent on the same wave!

[ducasi]

What he is not opening the door for you but for an other?
This sort of dancing is likely end up in a big mess, if both arent on the same wave!
I'm usually only dancing with one person at a time... But my follower should be waiting for a physical lead also, leading them along the path I've prepared for them.

[Msfab]

I'm usually only dancing with one person at a time... But my follower should be waiting for a physical lead also, leading them along the path I've prepared for them.

And what if the follower doesnt wish to take that particular path?
Ive actually started doing that with one of sheepmans moves/leads, I get halfway (usually behind him) and then decide to go back which he can feel in my resistance. But id say that there may not be that many people I could do that to and get a way with it without some sort of repercussion!
(thank you sheepman:flower: )

[Franck]

And what if the follower doesnt wish to take that particular path?
Ive actually started doing that with one of sheepmans moves/leads, I get halfway (usually behind him) and then decide to go back which he can feel in my resistance. Well, that would be 'hi-jacking' the lead :nice:
It is completely fine, provided that:

1- The lead was light enough that you weren't arm-wrestling.
2- The connection was good enough that the lead would notice a change in your compression / leverage (I guess what you call resistance)
3- The lead was experienced enough and able to respond suitably and in time to your hi-jack
4- You indicated clearly when you've finished hi-jacking so the lead is able to resume leading the dance.

Leading is not about forcing your partner in a particular path, but offering her a very clear path, at all times until such time as she wants to create a different one.

[ducasi]

And what if the follower doesnt wish to take that particular path? ...
Don't worry, I'm well used to that! And more power to you... If you can find something better than I was going to lead you to do, then go right ahead... :flower:

[Msfab]

Well, that would be 'hi-jacking' the lead :nice:

Im a little :confused: now , if what im doing is hi-jacking the lead.

What is leading with being lead?


Leading is not about forcing your partner in a particular path, but offering her a very clear path, at all times until such time as she wants to create a different one.
Is this something that can be taught? or is it that some people can/want to do it and others cant be bothered participating in the dance or dont want their partners input?

[Simon r]

Im a little :confused: now , if what im doing is hi-jacking the lead.

What is leading with being lead?


Is this something that can be taught? or is it that some people can/want to do it and others cant be bothered participating in the dance or dont want their partners input?

This is taught quite often in west coast and i have addapted it into many jive moves which i have taught at.
the very lovely Sparkles is very good at them as well ..:clap:

[Franck]

Im a little :confused: now , if what im doing is hi-jacking the lead.

What is leading with being lead?Well, earlier, Sparkles posted her definition and I replied adding a few elements. Effectively, leading is using the connection with your partner to make her move in a specific way / direction. A good connection creates a frame which allows you to move your partner in unison with yourself (or indeed totally separately if you isolate the connection and choose to contrast). Put simply if we are connected, if I move forward (and you're facing me) you'll move backward.
The leading without being lead part of this thread is adding many more subtle hints to your connection which allow more control over which foot you step on, what speed you move, even what style you should adopt, etc...
In the above example, it would still be possible for a follower to hi-jack and change the pattern by isolating the connection and doing her own thing without impacting on the lead, or should she choose to hi-jack the connection, reverse the lead, and for example, stop the man in his track to perform a stylish shine!

Is this something that can be taught? or is it that some people can/want to do it and others cant be bothered participating in the dance or dont want their partners input?I believe it can be taught, though it is not easy, as it requires a very good grasp of lead / follow, connection, isolation and awareness of your partner.

[DavidB]

What I mean by it is that the positioning of their body, the way they're looking (ie the direction their eyes move) and other subtleties in their body language indicate to me the movement (or lack of movement) they require me to make before I feel a connection with their hand actually tell me.
There are two things happening here. Firstly it is when all the different ways of leading - connection, shaping, flashlighting, positioning etc - are all saying the same thing.

More importantly it is only leading something the lady is set up to do.

[Rhythm King]

I recommend classes with Johnny Lloyd, an American living in Germany. He has taught at Beach Boogie. His connection classes are simply amazing.

Through a series of exercises, some purely visual, some with eyes closed, he teaches leaders and followers to become highly aware of their balance, position and movement with respect to each other. He also works on frame, tension, compression, elasticity etc. To type out what he does would take longer than I have now, but as an example he demonstrates how it is possible to get the follower to put their weight over a particular foot, so their only option is to move the other one and can give direction to that movement. He can thus lead someone who has never done Lindy Hop into executing a footwork perfect Lindy Turn. Of course what he demonstrates in a couple of hours, he says one should practise for months, to really gain the benefit.

He also suggests that couples who dance regularly should carry out 20-30 minutes of these exercises at the start of their dance practice, to establish close connection.

Oh, and the next time you see Amir, please ask him about Johnny's balls.

[Tessalicious]

In Latin dance, I have heard two opposing opinions on preparation of lead. Hannes Emrich suggests that the later a move can be led the better, and that the ability to do this results from a strong physical and visual connection. On the other hand, Brendan Cole advocates a change in body movement up to a beat before a move will be led so that a follower who is 'in tune' with the leader will know what is coming and a physical lead need not be so strong, but the move will still be snappy.

I would think that either is possible to apply to MJ, in very similar ways, so where the leader is very stronger and the physical connection between partners is more confident and tight, a later lead will work best (or otherwise anticipation will occur), while knowing your partner well allows the lead to be less strong and rely more on small visual or physical 'signals*' to prepare the lady.


And which forumite is it that leads forehead-to-forehead? I'm getting muddled.That would be Marc Forster, at least he has lead me like that in the past.

*Yes, I know, you all hate signals, but I don't mean that kind of signal. I can't describe what I do mean, but I think others have mentioned it up ^ there somewhere.

[Andybroom]

If you'll forgive a newbie to this forum (although far from a newbie to dancing) butting in to this, I think much of what has already been said is great though everyone seems to have missed an important point.

Leading is (or should be) a continuous thing. A good leader should take the follower through the previous step and out of it into the next step. Note that I said step, not move. In Argentinean Tango you are actually taught to lead step at a time because there is no set choreography to learn and the dance falls apart if you don't do that.

But the same theory applies just as much to modern jive (or anything else come to that). The follower should not feel sudden jerks or pulls or pushes in any direction at any time and will not do so if lead properly in this way (I take it that comprises the "leading without being lead" in the heading of this thread). She will just appear to know where to go because of the direction she is taken into and out of her "neutral" point (the point where she changes weight as she steps).


Note that this does not mean that the lead is in anyway forcing the follower or imparting any form of momentum to her. Lead involves giving the follow a continuous indication of where to go and at what speed in relation to the music, it does not (or should not) involve throwing her in the right direction (although you see a lot of modern jive leaders doing just that).


It only works properly with a follower who knows how to follow properly. "Spaghetti armed" or "heavy" followers will not follow properly. If faced with a a partner like that the leader needs to deliberately adapt his technicque to make things work, but the subtlty possible with a proper lead/follow connection will disappear. Usually that does mean using at least some physical force.

A few other notes:

I don't think you can extend the way a top ballroom latin competitor leads his competition partner through their competition routine completely into improvised social dancing. What works best for him and his partner in producing a crisply danced points scoring routine is just that.

The follower should (if she wishes) be able to follow with her eyes closed. It's not always a good idea and does preclude her feeding back any suggestions into the dance (a perfectly valid thing to do as described earlier in the thread and achieved by subtle positioning (mainly) and timing (partly)). If she actually needs to see to straightforwardly follow the lead then the leader is not properly leading.

Hijacking the lead is a game that can be played. However the follower needs to be petty damn good to do the hijack and also needs to keep leading once she's taken over till a suitable point to hand back arises at which point she needs to make it very obvious to the lead that she is handing back. To my mind it's something that is possible for very advanced couples to do sucessfully. Otherwise it's usually a disaster and might as well be avoided.

Finally! Lead and follow can be taught but also requires many hours of practice to become good at. Few Modern Jive teachers teach it (or any other technique) to any extent. Most (I would strongly suspect) don't know how to teach it.

All in my humble opinion, of course.

Andy

[Caro]

Having been fortunate enough to be lead by some fantasic male dancers I have been reflecting on those dances and have recently made an interesting discovery:
The guys I follow best are the ones who have 'lead me' before actually giving me a physical lead.

This may not be news to some of you, but it was a revelation to me.
What I mean by it is that the positioning of their body, the way they're looking (ie the direction their eyes move) and other subtleties in their body language indicate to me the movement (or lack of movement) they require me to make before I feel a connection with their hand actually tell me.

So, is this the 'ultimate' in leading (assuming that you don't have e.s.p.)?
Is it something something that guys can or should learn?
Should followers be looking for these little 'signals' or should they just wait for the connection and lead?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

There have been threads recently asking how much the forum has helped/influenced your dancing, and I think this particular thread from Sparkles has just litterally opened up my eyes to something that I had absolutely no idea about.

I had never realised that you could lead before (physically) leading and even less that you could somehow back lead the same way in suggesting the next move you'd like to do.
So it might be that some leaders have done it to me and I might have replied to it without even realising what was happening - but I don't think so. (?)

For now I am pretty :confused: but thanks loads it's gonna give me something to think about while dancing in the next few weeks!!! :flower: :worthy: :worthy:

*love the forum* :clap:

[ChrisA]

If you'll forgive a newbie to this forum (although far from a newbie to dancing)
Ok, we want to know who this guy is.

Anyone care to let on? (PM fine if you like...) Too much sense talked to just let it go...

[Andybroom]

Ok, we want to know who this guy is.

Anyone care to let on? (PM fine if you like...) Too much sense talked to just let it go...


It's no secret and I'm nobody special. Well, not that special, anyway:grin:

I'm someone with about 15 years of dancing under my dance shoes at reasonable sorts of levels (if you see what I mean). So I think I can manage to string the odd few dance moves together on the floor. Not a competitive type so I rarely enter dance competitions (also too old really to compete in anything other than the OAP catagories) and not really interested in teaching so I basically don't in any formal way.

I live and mainly dance in Bristol - most of the Bristol people here will know me.

Andy

[under par]

Ok, we want to know who this guy is.

Too much sense talked to just let it go...

]



:yeah: :yeah:

[marty_baby]

...Just don't get Andy talking about drops... unless you are willing to get to grab a large coffee and the physics books out! :rofl:

[Andybroom]

Now be fair .... you have to go us science/technical bods some opportunity to talk about things .... you wouldn't have all the good things in the world like er ... umm ...

without us! :devil: :D

Andy