The judges decision is final! [Archive]

Bill

3rd-February-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by TheTramp

Personally, I think that the judges votes should be made available for every round, for every competitor. If they aren't, how are people supposed to know where to improve for next time?

Steve

Good point Steve but the problem is that knowing your marks ( or possibly lack of them !!) won't help you improve. It'll tell you either that you didn't dance well or that there were several couples who were better than you. And I've seen rounds which are 'better' than others because the standard seems to be higher but still only 3 coupes or so can go through.

As mentioned elsewhere by Dadivb some written feedback from a judge would be very helpful but with so many competitors how would they have the time ?

But I do think marks should be available - even if not on the day. They can always be posted on the websire a week or so afterwards. When I was watching the Ceroc comp form a couple of years ago I was still amazed at soem of the decisions in the lucky dip. Even on the day I thought there were couples dancing really well together who didn't progress and a few who were not as good who got through. Ce'st la vie I suppose eh ! :what: :rolleyes:

Gadget

3rd-February-2003, 03:27 PM

A majority want to protect the anonymity of the judges; can I ask why?
I would think that knowing the markings of particular judges would help form a picture of how they score, and so help in any future competitions where they are judging.

If you think they should be kept anonymous, wouldn't it just be better to see an agrigate of the scoring, rather than each individual judges opinion?

Dreadful Scathe

3rd-February-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Gadget
A majority want to protect the anonymity of the judges; can I ask why?
I would think that knowing the markings of particular judges would help form a picture of how they score, and so help in any future competitions where they are judging.

If you think they should be kept anonymous, wouldn't it just be better to see an agrigate of the scoring, rather than each individual judges opinion?

I think its the scoring thats important not the way individual judges scored - anonymity would ensure no one would bare a grudge or complain of bias against particular judges. I think thats important as its the competition organisers who decide what is being judged on, not the judges themselves. As for aggregates etc.. the more statistics the better for most people I imagine as you're bound to look better in one set of statistics than another so it'll please more people some of the time. I always score highly in the brunette 6'1 Scottish Males with blonde partners catagory ;)

Lindsay

3rd-February-2003, 05:12 PM

I think the scoring/comments sheet should be made available for competitors, should they wish feedback, but not put on public display, i.e. notice board/website.

As for not protecting the anonymity of judges, I suspect that in the dance community this might lead to grudges/bias as DS says.

Sandy

3rd-February-2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by TheTramp

Personally, I think that the judges votes should be made available for every round, for every competitor. If they aren't, how are people supposed to know where to improve for next time?
Steve

I don't compete but I agree with Steve on this. Some kind of feedback should be made available.

Sandy:cheers:

Bill

3rd-February-2003, 07:41 PM

and I think it's difficult to avoid bias completely as has been said before. We all have styles we prefer and possibly even moves so some folk might prefer a latin 'feel' while others might opt for a more lindy style.

And of course it can be a negative bias as well. With the dance 'world' being quite small some judges may well find themselves judging a person/people they don't actually like very much and being only human it could be difficult getting that out of your head ( I would imagine!). With a number of judges this should be less of a problem ( Unless none of them like you :sick: ) but one poor mark could be enough to prevent a couple getting through a round.

At the top competition level almost everyone knows everyone else so perhaps it all evens itself out but at least if the marks for each judge were posted it might help - but no doubt there would still be debates and differences of opinion and threads like this one
:D :wink:

TheTramp

3rd-February-2003, 07:59 PM

Cant you wear some sort of a disguise. A big moustach for exampleThey might still recognise me. Unless I can find some way to disguise my stomach!! I turned up at Adams 'Masked Ball' last year, in full Mask (the film) outfit, complete with head covering rubber mask. Adam just looked at me, and said 'Hello Mr. Lampert'. :tears:

Is there an exhaustive list anywhere? Ive no idea what competitions there are!Well. Listing the 'The is a competition' events (rather than the dance events that have a competition attached to them - like the CerocMetro Masked Ball (see above)), there is Blackpool, London Ceroc, Scotland Ceroc, Bristol LeRoc, and a new one being held for the first time this year in Brighton in October. If I can help anyone with details about any of the above, send me a PM.

Good point Steve but the problem is that knowing your marks ( or possibly lack of them !!) won't help you improve.Sorry Bill, but I disagree. If you know that you scored 4/5 for musicality, but only 2/5 for technicality, then you know that you need to work on some bigger, more complex moves next time, but that your musicality is needing less work etc. It may not help you get better, but you'll have an indication of where the work needs to be.

I agree that on the day would be hellishly difficult to organise. But these days, I can't see any reason why all the results wouldn't be put on the web site fairly soon after the competition. Even the people who don't have a computer themselves, will know someone who does.

The reason I think that all rounds should be posted (rather than just the final), is that the people in the final are generally scoring pretty highly in all categories, so they don't really need a great deal of feedback. That would be mainly for everyone to see why a certain couple won. It's the people who go out in earlier rounds that might be able to use their marks to improve and go further next time.

I'm a little torn (after Gus' post about what happened to Anne in Bristol) about the whole anonimity. But, my general feeling is that the judges should be held accountable - especially since it seems that some people are turning judging into their thing, and seem to be judging at a number of the competitions. If one particular judge seems to mark you lower all the time, then you may wish to re-consider entering a competition that he or she is judging, if you know that it's going to be difficult to progress (if you're entering in a serious competative way, rather than just to have fun). (This also brings us back to Gus' point of publishing the names of the judges as soon as they're known). It should be made clear though, that anyone hassling a judge about the marks that they've been awarded will not be welcome at further competitions.

If there's any other form of competition with judges, where the judges marks are kept secret, I'd be interested to hear about it. Makes me wonder how/why it all started with secret marks in the first place. You'd think that, following the trend (ice dance, Eurovision song contest etc.), the marks would have just been automatically given out. Who made the initial decision to keep them hidden (which is presumably where following competition organisers have followed on from).

Damn. This was longer than I intended. I hope I didn't bore you too much :D

Steve

Bill

3rd-February-2003, 08:08 PM

Good reply again Steve and I see what you mean now about the marks helping although all they may do is reinforce what the dancer already knows eg I can dance pretty well to a beat but technically I'm very poor and my spinning is very limited but I don't actually do very much about it. :sad:

Might also help to have someone around who can give some advice on those areas you feel need some attention apart from Ceroc ( and other ) workshops.

Also agree absolutely about the marks being posted and it shouldn't really be a problem in the main comp categories and if they appeared on a site a few weeks later ( as the finalists do now) then that could be helpful.

Wonder if any of the current judges would stop judging if their marks were to be published :confused: :rolleyes:

TheTramp

3rd-February-2003, 08:14 PM

Wonder if any of the current judges would stop judging if their marks were to be published Well, you'd hope not, because if they're doing the job to the best of their abilities, then they have nothing to worry about.

However, I did hear (from several sources), of one person who has judged in the past, who is alleged to have openly said on several occasions that he or she judges on reputation as much as on performance on the day.

I really, really hope that isn't the case, and that the person who said that was merely practising to take over Gus' role of ODA, or has merely been misquoted (several times).

Steve

Dance Demon

3rd-February-2003, 10:50 PM

Who would want to be a judge eh?

I think that the world of dance is no different from any other pastime or sport. I was a qualified boxing referee and judge for many years, and regardless of how well I felt I had judged a competition, there was always someone who felt different.
Humans by their very nuture are competitive animals. Some more than others, granted, but they will often feel agrieved by a judges decision if it goes against them. However, different judges look for different things. To use the boxing example again, some juges, if the bout is close, go for the more aggressive man, whereas another may prefer the more technically gifted man. Neither is wrong, they just see things differently.
In the case of dance, some judges may look for technical excellence, whilst others may look more at style. Re the judge who goes on reputation, I am sure that there may be others who, in the event of a close contest, would go for the underdog. Things tend to even themselves out I think.
DD
:devil:

Gadget

4th-February-2003, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Dance Demon
<snip>In the case of dance, some judges may look for technical excellence, whilst others may look more at style.
this is why anonimity is not necisaraly a good thing; if you see your marks are poor for technical, you would want to know if that particular judge was one who was more bias towards the technical aspect - the marks from them in their 'field' would hold more weight than others.

Re the judge who goes on reputation, I am sure that there may be others who, in the event of a close contest, would go for the underdog.
Not in dancing I admit, but I have come across a perticular style of judging that seems to reflect this: If the judge considers themselves as experianced as the competitor, they may judge on the moves that they think the competitors were trying instead of what they were actually doing.

I have also seen vested interests work against competitors; the judge knows the move performed and having seen it performed by (or has taught it to) the competitors, knows how it should be done and all the minor flaws will be marked down.

Gus

4th-February-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by Gadget
I have also seen vested interests work against competitors; the judge knows the move performed and having seen it performed by (or has taught it to) the competitors, knows how it should be done and all the minor flaws will be marked down.

Interesting allegation .... where :confused: Many moves, especially at advanced level, come from (slight) variation sof other moves, modified to suit the style of the dancing couple or the musical interpretation. I would be dismayed if any judge marked down a couple for performing a move that was not done the 'correct' way ... for example, even Ceroc has changed how the first move has been taught quite significantly over the last 5 years. Given the time available to jusge couples, most judges (unless they have an ulterior motive) will judge the dnacers principlay on their overall musical interpretation and how complex the moves look ..... or do you think otherwise?

Jayne

4th-February-2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by Gadget
this is why anonimity is not necisaraly a good thing; if you see your marks are poor for technical, you would want to know if that particular judge was one who was more bias towards the technical aspect - the marks from them in their 'field' would hold more weight than others.

But you don't need to "name and shame" judges to achieve this - results could simply be posted as "judge 1", "judge 2" etc for all the competitors. That way if one particular judge marks you harshly on technical aspect you'd exoect them to be marking harshly on technical aspect for all/most competitors. That way you'd still find out if it was just your poor technical ability or a harsh judge of technical ability whilst still offering some degree of protection to the judges.

J :nice:

TheTramp

4th-February-2003, 10:04 AM

But you don't need to "name and shame" judges to achieve this I don't think it's about 'shaming' judges. If they are being paid (I'm assuming that they are) for doing a job, which they are then presumably doing to the best of their ability, why should they be shamed by having the results of their paid employment being published? The only reason for 'shaming' would be if they weren't doing the job to the best of their ability. And I wouldn't even think of suggesting that to be the case.

Steve

Gus

4th-February-2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by TheTramp
If they are being paid (I'm assuming that they are) for doing a job, which they are then presumably doing to the best of their ability, why should they be shamed by having the results of their paid employment being published
Steve

The judges are being paid by the Organisers and so I would suggest that the organisers should be the judge of the 'quality' of the judging. The unfortunate reality is that there are far too many egos in Modern Jive (and that is not confined to the better dancers) and these egos are more than likely to take personal issue with someone who has marked them down.

TheTramp

4th-February-2003, 11:29 AM

The unfortunate reality is that there are far too many egos in Modern Jive I'm gonna play at being ODA here....

I'm not sure that Modern Jive differs from any other competative area in this - and from what I hear of the ballroom and possibly salsa 'scenes', which are far more developed in the competition stakes - people who do Modern Jive are, in the main, less likely to be as competative.

However, still in my ODA role, I still feel that if you are going to hold competitions which cost a reasonable amount of money to take part in (the cost of entry, plus the travel, plus the accomodation - and in most cases, the outfits, etc.), and have quite large amounts in prizes, then there should be some feedback on how well you've done. I know that no-one is being forced to attend the competition, and that a lot of people are doing it for the 'fun' element, as well as meeting up with friends from all over the country.

I hope that I'm not giving out the wrong impressions in my arguements in this thread. I do strongly feel that judges marks should be made available - and while I am competing, I would feel the same if I wasn't. If I am ever (as unlikely as that seems) asked to judge any competition, the marks I award will be available to anyone who wants to see them, whether or not they are made public, and I would be willing to discuss why I thought as I did - although, I would not let anyone harass me over it.

I have chosen to attend the competition in Blackpool, totally to have a good time and enjoy myself and see all my friends from around the country who I may only get to see at events like this. While, as previously said, I do strongly believe that the marks should be public, I won't be letting that affect my enjoyment of the day, and while I'm sure that I won't agree with all the judges decisions, the judges decision is final, and that's the end of the story.

I'll shut up now. Probably to huge sighs of relief :D

Steve

horsey_dude

5th-February-2003, 11:00 AM

I have a real gripe about the way that competitions are judged (possibly because I have never won anything). Our competitions are often judeged by non cerocing outsiders (possibly to be more impartial) and in my opinion it is often the best looking couples that win, rather than the best dancers, or the ones who do the flashiest moves (never mind timing, rythym, style, interpretation) the look hard to the ignorant but are just boring if they don't suit the music.

As I said this may be sour grapes but I would like to see whether there is any kind of consistancy between judges.

DavidB

8th-February-2003, 11:18 AM

As well as looking at what the judges mark, you should also think about how they mark, and how these marks are collated.

For example if you look at the judging criteria for Blackpool

Form Chance 2 Dance Website (http://www.chancetwodance.co.uk/judges_2003.htm)
SECTION DESCRIPTION MARKS
COSTUME / PRESENTATION- Dress, co-ordination with partner 1 - 3
and overall presentation.

MUSICALITY / INTERPRETATION- Showmanship, personality, poise, 1 - 5
The ability to dance to the rhythm, and character of the music.

TECHNIQUE - Floor craft, good pattern and direction, 1 - 5
Good use of the floor, consideration to fellow competitors, Style.

VARIETY COMPLEXITY – Variation, difficulty and execution of moves. 1 - 5

KEY
1 = Poor
2 = Below Average
3 = Average
4 = Good
5 = Excellent

COSTUME / PRESENTATION KEY
1 = Poor
2 = Average
3 = Excellent

Whether or not you agree with what they are looking for, they have made an effort to publish this in advance.

It is not very clear how they mark. Does each judge award marks in each category, or are some looking for different things.

You have to assume a judge can give decimal marks (eg 4.8), otherwise virtually everyone in the final would get the same marks.

Assuming each judge awards marks in each category, are they then just totalled to find the overall mark for that judge? That would mean that an excellent costume can make the difference between an average and an excellent musical interpretation.

Then given the scores for each judge, how do you combine them. If you just total the scores, then you are assuming each judge awards marks in a standard way by deducting marks for mistakes (as in gymnastics or diving). You also give an individual judge a lot of power to affect the marks of a couple.

The alternative is to use each judges marks to rank all the couples (ie judge A says who is 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. Judge B does the same) and combine these rankings to produce an overall ranking. This is the way Ballroom, West Coast Swing, and Ice Skating work. It still has its problems - it is not as obvious to the spectators, or the dancers, and it does not reflect how much better a judge thinks one couple is compared to another.

Given that other dance competitions use some sort of Relative Placement scheme, I would do the same. It gives an easy way out if anyone complains (as they probably will in a few years time...)

But however it is done, if you publish the marks, you should explain how you have turned them into an overall result.

David

Sheepman

1st-October-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Gus
The judges are being paid by the Organisers I'm not sure this is always the case, or even if they are paid, it can be pretty much of a token payment. Not that this really affects this debate, but I think highlights the fact that some people are willing to put themselves up as judges more for the love of the art (and maybe to enhance their own reputation?) rather than for monetary reward.

Consider the Blackpool competition, and how many hours of work the judges are doing there. I'm sure they don't get paid a sum that would even get me out of bed in the morning, but if someone ever asked me (some chance!) I'd be willing to do my best at it.

Perhaps we needed a voting category that the results should be published, and judges identified, providing they agreed to be identified. I have asked judges for feedback after comnpetitions, but have never asked them to tell me what scores they gave.

Regarding David Bs comments, it looks like we're heading for the McGregor judging method debate again, there is plenty on this on other threads

Greg

Gus

2nd-October-2003, 05:34 PM

Well, with the Ceroc Scotland competition coming up .... what will be the level of transparency about judges scoring? Dont know who all the judges are ... or whether the majority will be local again. Seemed general agreement last year but with things getting a bit more serious this year will that change?

Bill

3rd-October-2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Gus
Well, with the Ceroc Scotland competition coming up .... what will be the level of transparency about judges scoring? Dont know who all the judges are ... or whether the majority will be local again. Seemed general agreement last year but with things getting a bit more serious this year will that change?

Let's hope not. I think with the Open category there will be more experienced dancers from down south entering. Hope it is fun again and I'm certianly looking forward to doing more watching and less competing this year :D

Having talked to Steve I know he hasn't danced with his partner for ages and Fran and I haven't met up to practice at all so so not as prepared as we would like.

Hope to see last years winners back and especially looking forward to what should be a very good Intermediate comp - especially as Elliot and Dela are mulitple comp winners and will be in the Advanced :D .

There was pretty much unanimous agreement over the results last year and I hope that this doesn't change. Mind you a little bit of controversy can be fun :na: :wink:

Lounge Lizard

3rd-October-2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
As well as looking at what the judges mark, you should also think about how they mark, and how these marks are collated.

For example if you look at the judging criteria for Blackpool
KEY
1 = Poor
2 = Below Average
3 = Average
4 = Good
5 = Excellent

COSTUME / PRESENTATION KEY
1 = Poor
2 = Average
3 = Excellent

Whether or not you agree with what they are looking for, they have made an effort to publish this in advance.

David
It is good that this is published in advance, but with this system it seems thst an average dancer with an excellent costume gets same marks as an excellent dancer in a poor costume.

I think the costume should not rank so highly in a 'dance' competition.

On the judging a number of judges expect competitors to direct their dance towards them, I always prefer dancers that just dance together and focus on each other.
This seemed evident at Blackpool where big music, big costumes and big cheesy grin were often the order of the day. The two girls dancing the socks off the rest were IMHO the best there.

Bill

3rd-October-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard

I think the costume should not rank so highly in a 'dance' competition.

On the judging a number of judges expect competitors to direct their dance towards them, I always prefer dancers that just dance together and focus on each other.
This seemed evident at Blackpool where big music, big costumes and big cheesy grin were often the order of the day. The two girls dancing the socks off the rest were IMHO the best there.

At some comps I've seen couples dancing well in very plain outfits so they can't be too important at least at some events.

As for 'cheesy' grins........I have to agree. There are some dancers I've seen who are obviously very good at the 'competition smile' and in some cases they look very artificial. I much prefer to see a couple dancing for each other and having fun ( if at all possible at a comp :sick: ). It can look just too affected but..............some people win because of this so who am I to say anything !! :rolleyes:

Sheepman

6th-October-2003, 11:56 AM

I got into a debate recently on a topic I'd never given much thought. The judging of DWAS/take a chance competitions. There seem to be 2 methods employed here.

1. The tap on the shoulder from a judge and you're out.

2. The tap on the shoulder from the judge and you're through to the next round.

The main argument was over how you can be sure you've even been looked at by a judge. With either method you can't be sure, but with method 2 it is more drastic, because if you weren't noticed, you're out!

I've competed under both these methods, and have to say I prefer the first one. OK I know there is the theory about it being too "negative" being picked to leave, but I say if you're not performing well enough, let's clear the floor for those that are. With method 2 there is the panic towards the end of the record, "Oh no, only 45 seconds of this track to go, and no one has even looked at us yet." So you start leaping around like a mad thing in front of the judges nose! (And yes, it did work for me & my partner!)

Now I know these DWAS competitions are supposed to be a bit of fun (aren't they all??), but they should still be fair. So our theory went on to say that the only fair way to do it is for each competitor to be given scores in the same way as other categories, and for results to be totted up and announced afterwards. Is this practical? With up to 50 couples on the floor at the same time, I don't see how, though I suppose judges could pair off and work on allocated quadrants of the floor. Though this could lead to those on the fringes of each quadrant being missed out.

I haven't checked out how this is going to be judged at the up coming Britroc competition, but looking at the effort made generally regarding the judging of this competition, I reckon it should be as good as any, but how about a debate before it sounds like sour grapes?

Greg

Bill

6th-October-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Sheepman
I got into a debate recently on a topic I'd never given much thought. The judging of DWAS/take a chance competitions. There seem to be 2 methods employed here.

1. The tap on the shoulder from a judge and you're out.

2. The tap on the shoulder from the judge and you're through to the next round.

but how about a debate before it sounds like sour grapes?

Greg

I think this has been touched on before and it is very difficult as there are so many people on the dance floor at once. last year I was on the edge of the floor for the first round in Blackpool and was caught quite heavily in the chest by another man's elbow - and it hurt !:sick:

The only way to do this 'properly' would be to have a handful of couples on at a time but that would take forever. As it's supposed to be more fun than the 'serious' comp then I think it's less important who gets through but it does mean that judges will inevitably see a few familiar faces and perhaps be swayed by those they know - unless you are jumping up and down in front of their noses.:D

TheTramp

6th-October-2003, 04:31 PM

Well. Quite agree that DWAS aren't really to be taken all that seriously. Although, it's probably the best test of lead and follow - if they could somehow arrange it so that it was a 'stranger' you were dancing with.

I do prefer the tap on the shoulder and you're out method - for the first round anyhow. That way you could eliminate all the couples who don't really gel together. After the first round though, I think that it should be judged in the same way as the rest of the competitions.

Or you could just limit the number of entries in the first instance, as to make it a 'proper' competition. Though, I think that this defeats the objective.

Of course, an even better way, would be to do the same as the Aussie competitions, and split the competition into a beginners DWAS, an intermediate DWAS and an advanced DWAS, and then the rounds should be small enough to judge 'properly'. As well as giving those people who haven't been dancing as long more of a chance as well.

Steve

Sheepman

7th-October-2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by TheTramp
do the same as the Aussie competitions, and split the competition into a beginners DWAS, an intermediate DWAS and an advanced DWAS, and then the rounds should be small enough to judge 'properly'.
Interesting idea, though this must completely change the nature of the competition. Plus you get into the old debate about who is eligible for each category. (I presume you'd stick with the beginners? :wink: ) And doesn't this end up with just this competition taking up the whole day?

Greg

TheTramp

7th-October-2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Sheepman
Interesting idea, though this must completely change the nature of the competition. Plus you get into the old debate about who is eligible for each category. (I presume you'd stick with the beginners? :wink: ) And doesn't this end up with just this competition taking up the whole day?

Greg Well, the usual way over there, is that the teachers tell them who is ready for which category (I think). Though, over there also, I think that people are pushing to be in the highest category - they'd prefer to be in the advanced, than do well in the intermediate. Because, lets face it, everyone in the advanced competition should be better than everyone in the intermediate (and down to the beginners). So, even if you come no-where in the advanced, you can still say that you did better than the winners of the intermediate - and with the prizes not being of any value, there's no incentive there (although, I'd guess that it doesn't always happen this way).

As for taking longer, possibly. Not sure. Because there's so fewer people in each category, it's a lot quicker to organise. The time it took to partner 150 couples up at Blackpool and Ceroc, you could probably have had a couple of rounds of dancing. They partner all the couples up prior to the competition in Oz (presumably by random draw :D ), and publish all the couples at the desk where you register, which speeds up that process. Then, there were a couple of heats at each level, straight into the final. I don't recall it taking that long to get out of the way.....

Steve

Gadget

7th-October-2003, 02:44 PM

I remember a wile ago that someone was complaining that since they got through to the finals {in a "tap and you're out" system}, it meant that they had danced the whole song of every heat, therefore they were knackered by the time they reached that stage and the performance wasn't up to the standard it could have been.

The "tap and you're through" system allows for the 'good' competitors to have more of a rest before the next round.

TheTramp

7th-October-2003, 04:32 PM

It's exactly the same for all the competitors though. They all have to dance to the end of the songs. If they did a tap to go through, then you could say that some competitors who get tapped through first, have an unfair advantage over those who only get tapped through right at the end of the songs.....

Steve

Divissima

7th-October-2003, 05:12 PM

Just to add a thought about the Australian DWAS competition. (DavidB has also posted up some interesting comments on the recent Australian competition in the Sydney Comp thread.) Mark Harding tried a new system this year which involved judging the leaders and followers separately with each round having three one-minute excerpts from different songs and having to rotate to a new partner within the heat for each song. Anyone who had danced with their new partner on a regular basis was asked to declare the interest and was swapped to a new partner. Once you got into the final, you were then judged as a couple for the places.

The major advantage of this was that it seemed to be a very fair system. The disadvantage was that it did take much longer to get through each round.

As the Tramp has commented, you could have smaller numbers of competitors in each round (and limit numbers overall) or you could allow a larger number of competitors and the competition to run for much longer. DavidB observed that in Sydney there was hardly any freestyle during the day (by my recollection, there was no more than 45 minutes (and possibly even less) during the event where you could freestyle - until the post comp party!) so by making it a fairer competition, you lessen one of the elements which makes competitions so popular as social events.

As with so many things, there is an element of trade-off.

Bill

8th-October-2003, 10:36 AM

Whatever system is adopted there will always be some difficulties.

At Blackpool the only problem is that too many people are packed into the first round heats. It wouldn't take that much time to have an extra two heats to have fewer dancers on the floor - if everything started dead on time.

I do prefer the Ceroc system of posting the results after the heat so everyone gets to stay on for a whole record. It was obvious ( according to some viewers) that some dancers were being given the nod very very quickly and perhaps because their faces were already known to the judges.

I suppose the advanatage of a tap and you're off method is that it clears the floor and the judges can look more closely at the couples left but it is worrying knowing the end of the song is approaching and it looks as if you're staying on till the end. :sick: :sad:

DavidB

8th-October-2003, 01:05 PM

I'm not too sure of exactly how the 'tap on the shoulder' works. Either they come to a collective decision, or they each get to select one or two couples to go through.

I've never liked the idea of the judging by committee, where the judges come to some form of result between themselves. I particularly don't like it when they have to tap people through/out during the round itself. There is so little time to look at the couples anyway - making time for a group discussion in the middle of a heat just reduces their chance to see what people are doing. As a result, if you don't gel instantly with your partner, you have no chance. After the first minute, the judges have to start their discussion, and have enough time to tap the right people.

The alternative is to give each judge one or two 'taps' each. This has problems too. A judge may have selected his two couples after watching most of the heat, but find they've already been tapped by the time they get there. They might then have to make a quick decision based on whatever time is remaining.

I'd rather see it scored as any other category, with each judge coming to an independent decision, and the overall results posted after the heat. But if you stick with tapping, then tapping through is better. The couples have paid to enter - they should at least get chance to dance to a whole song.

BUT...
All this assumes the DWAS is a serious category, and in just about all the events it is run as a fun category. If it is run just for fun, then the tapping on the shoulder can add to the fun element. Give each judge 2 'taps' and wait for the last judge to be running around the floor trying to find someone to tap...

However I would like to see one event where there is a DWAS category run as a serious competition - after all it has to be the true test of 'lead and follow' dancing.

David

Geordieed

8th-October-2003, 01:59 PM

:D It is ironic how we all dance the elements of DWAS when we are out doing our social dancing. For many it is what we do most of the time and are not locked away practising for a competition. Even when dancers practise at a social gathering they will have a break with their partner to dance with someone else.

No one seems to have found the ideal way to incorporate are basic dance habits in this country to one of the growing competitions.

Lounge Lizard

8th-October-2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
BUT...
All this assumes the DWAS is a serious category, and in just about all the events it is run as a fun category. If it is run just for fun, then the tapping on the shoulder can add to the fun element. Give each judge 2 'taps' and wait for the last judge to be running around the floor trying to find someone to tap...

However I would like to see one event where there is a DWAS category run as a serious competition - after all it has to be the true test of 'lead and follow' dancing.

David I agree it is also the most popular and probably the most lucrative - Say 100 dancers x £6 with no prize money!!!

Sheepman

8th-October-2003, 04:54 PM

DavidB

8th-October-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Divissima
Mark Harding tried a new system this year which involved judging the leaders and followers separately with each round having three one-minute excerpts from different songs and having to rotate to a new partner within the heat for each song. Anyone who had danced with their new partner on a regular basis was asked to declare the interest and was swapped to a new partner. Once you got into the final, you were then judged as a couple for the places. This got discussed (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40&perpage=10&highlight=stranger&pagenumber=1) last year on this board. The general opinion seemed to be that it might take the fun out of it. I'm starting to think that if the DWAS is a fun event, then you keep it simple as possible. Swapping partners might be nice for a more serious DWAS.

It was interesting to see a DWAS competition run like this in Australia. It seemed to work pretty well, but they had done it before at a different competition. The only glitch seemed to be what 'regular partner' meant. One couple got switched because they both came from the UK!

On a slightly different track - how about a DWAS version of the Jive Masters? The audience judges the best man and lady, but you get separate prizes for
- the best man according the men
- the best man according the ladies
- the best lady according the men
- the best lady according the ladies

David

Gary

9th-October-2003, 01:17 AM

Originally posted by Divissima
Just to add a thought about the Australian DWAS competition. ... Mark Harding tried a new system this year which involved judging the leaders and followers separately with each round having three one-minute excerpts from different songs and having to rotate to a new partner within the heat for each song.

Not a big deal, but I believe this system was first trialled by Deb Cantoni's LeBop comp last year.

I like the system -- I was very insecure about competing in the advanced category, but could tell myself that each partner I got would get two other shots at a "real" advanced dancer. Plus I got to dance with three groovy girls instead of one!

I believe the system could be made to work faster when folks get more used to the rotation. I also think that if you've got three rotations, it's probably not a big enough deal to worry about if one of them is with a regular partner, which would also speed things up.

DavidB

9th-October-2003, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by gcapell
Not a big deal, but I believe this system was first trialled by Deb Cantoni's LeBop comp last year. I'd never heard of this system being used in Modern Jive before this, but it has been used in other forms of dancing for a long time.

The whole Dance With A Stranger concept was invented by Jack Carey (http://www.streetswing.com/histmai2/d2jcary1.htm) in the States back in the '50s. They call it 'Jack and Jill'. I'm not sure when they started swapping partners during a heat, but they were doing it at the first comp we went to in the US in 1998.

The Jack and Jill is the most serious category for non-professionals. They have plenty of different levels - Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, All-Star, Champions, and Masters (ie seniors). They use a national points system (http://www.swingdancecouncil.com/library/wsdcpointsregistry.htm) to works out which level you are at. A 'serious' dancer who might enter the intermediate or advanced freestyle in the UK would enter the Jack and Jill in the US, not the freestyle. (My definition of serious is anyone who practices.)

For the very best dancers, the Showcase (choreographed with lifts) and the Classic (choreographed without lifts) are the main events. But they still have a Champions Jack And Jill category for them, and is run primarily for entertainment of the audience (and the competitors!) It is one of the highlights of the weekend

One of the biggest competitions of the year is held in Phoenix (http://www.gpsdc.org/july4th.html). It is only Jack and Jill - nothing else. It is very difficult to get tickets because so many people want to go and watch.

I wouldn't advocate anything like this at every comp in the UK. The existing DWAS format is too popular, and I think people appreciate a real 'fun' category. But maybe one competition could try it for a change.

David

Geordieed

9th-October-2003, 09:57 AM

DWAS is a fascinating concept. It has the potential to be a good test to a dancers' ability. What do people think of DWAS pitched at different levels. Beginner, intermediate and advanced. Yes I know some may automatically express the opinion that a guy should lead a partner well at any level. If you are good enough to win then you should make even a beginner look like a princess at the ball.

From the other end of a lead many women have complained that they have ended up with a less experienced lead when they have entered DWAS and only lasted a couple of rounds although their ability should progess them alot further.

Sheepman

9th-October-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by DavidB
On a slightly different track - how about a DWAS version of the Jive Masters? The audience judges the best man and lady, but you get separate prizes for
- the best man according the men
- the best man according the ladies
- the best lady according the men
- the best lady according the ladies
I think this is a fab idea, and before anyone says that all those top dancers have danced together loads anyway, looking at the Jive Masters final, the finalists were spread both geographically and stylisticly, so it wouldn't be a problem.

Where can I get my ticket to see this?!

Greg

ChrisA

9th-October-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Geordieed
DWAS is a fascinating concept. It has the potential to be a good test to a dancers' ability. What do people think of DWAS pitched at different levels. Beginner, intermediate and advanced. Yes I know some may automatically express the opinion that a guy should lead a partner well at any level. If you are good enough to win then you should make even a beginner look like a princess at the ball.

I guess I should never say never, but DWAS is the only type of competition I'd contemplate these days - I had my fill of the rest of it competing in ballroom and latin at uni, and although it was fun, there was too much stress and aggro for me to want to get all competitive again at my advanced age :)

But I love DWAS as a concept. As a Ceroc taxi I am frequently in a situation where beginner ladies are telling me how cr*p they think they are, having been led badly throughout the beginners' class. And then I dance with them, just simple stuff but led with care, and their eyes light up when they discover that they're fine after all. I tell them that any non-beginner guy should never lead a move they can't follow, since a dancer worth his salt will know in the first 10 seconds what level his lady is at.

And of the many ladies that are much better dancers than I am, sometimes I'll dance with one who is also highly skilled at sensing my level, and dances with me there, or (to challenge me a little) slightly above.

Nina and Lydia for example, are fine exponents of this art - I've seen them dancing with virtually complete beginners, just doing some basic moves well; then I've had dances with them where I'll attempt a bit more than that and not only do they not humiliate me when it doesn't quite come off, but I come away encouraged and inspired...

... and then I see Nina dance with Nigel, or Lydia with Viktor, and their status is truly revealed.

Sorry to ramble on like this, but it's this connection thing that I find so exciting to discover on the dance floor. I wouldn't deny that it can be taught, learned and developed, but I do think that the ability to connect with anyone, at any level, in this way gets right to the heart of the measure of a dancer.

Chris

Martin

7th-November-2003, 04:11 PM

What an interesting thread, just read it through...

Firstly having been at both ends regularly :D Both Judge and competitor, I would like to see the results available to the competetors if they request it (which was done this year at Canberra)

My first competition at advanced level (1997) I got marked by one judge on presentation ZERO, I only knew as the judge sitting next to her questioned her and let me know why I did not make the top 3 in the finals, this helped me as I was then aware that a smile as well as hand movements, style etc. was required by some.

I favour rankings, 1,2,3,4,5 etc. as apposed to a 0-10 system, as some judges mark 0-10 to try to effect the marks, others mark mid-way 5-9.

I am in danger of reaching for my soap box, to keep it short I will finish on DWAS.

My first comp, I only did DWAS as I considered it "fun" and "safe"
I would love to see DWAS just for those who are not taking part in any other category, to add fun to otherwise spectators. This keeps it smaller, I also love the Aussie idea (started by Debs in Melbourne I think) this saves getting stuck with a lemon.

Marty

Tiggerbabe

7th-November-2003, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by Martin
this saves getting stuck with a lemon.

Marty

What on earth is that supposed to mean?
If it means what I think it does, then so much for the competition being for fun (I'm sure I was awful when I first started ceroc but people still didn't seem to mind dancing with me) ................if it doesn't :confused: please clarify!!!!

Martin

9th-November-2003, 02:04 PM

So "Lemons" causing a problem, luckily we have lots of lemon trees here in Australia. Anyone who knows lemons, knows they are yellow, oval and have pointy bits at both ends...

In the UK the dance with a stranger is truely a fun "lucky dip" event. 100% fun and seen as such. :D

In Australia there is fun in competition also they do seperate between beginner, intermediate and advanced for the "lucky dip" where people who do not have a regular partner hope to do well. They also try a lot harder to suceed (in my opinion from what I have seen so far). :waycool:

If I entered DWAS in the UK I would do so in the spirit of the event and hope to have some great fun with whoever I was partnered with.

In Aussie or USA (quote from David) - "The Jack and Jill is the most serious category for non-professionals. They have plenty of different levels - Novice, Intermediate, Advanced, All-Star, Champions, and Masters (ie seniors). They use a national points system to works out which level you are at. A 'serious' dancer who might enter the intermediate or advanced freestyle in the UK would enter the Jack and Jill in the US, not the freestyle. "
It is far more a case of upper level competition.

My point was that by changing partners 3 times you get to 'show your stuff' across a range of partners who are new to you which gives a fairer reflection of your ability to dance with total strangers regerdless of the ability of one specific dancer.

One of the problems being that you might be matched with someone who does not suit your particular 'dance style'.

There is no right or wrong - mix a swing dancer with a 'smoothy' and things do not gel. Bit like watching a Kangaroo dancing with an ice skater.

In Australia we have had some fun challenges - a 'girl' with an adams apple and taller than the regular male dancers in "advanced" competed, who could not do a simple dip. Maybe as a "he", reached advanced so advanced was the catogory applicable. :sorry

Hope you can get past he one word "syndrome" and view the rest of the mail as intended.

Marty

Tiggerbabe

9th-November-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Martin
Anyone who knows lemons, knows they are yellow, oval and have pointy bits at both ends...
Yes, I do believe I've seen them in the supermarket - have even been known to purchase them - but can honestly say I've never seen any at a dance competition.

In the UK the dance with a stranger is truely a fun "lucky dip" event. 100% fun and seen as such. :D

Absolutely, and for many people - for whatever reason - probably the only competition they'll ever enter.

My point was that by changing partners 3 times you get to 'show your stuff' across a range of partners who are new to you which gives a fairer reflection of your ability to dance with total strangers regerdless of the ability of one specific dancer.

One of the problems being that you might be matched with someone who does not suit your particular 'dance style'.

Hope you can get past he one word "syndrome" and view the rest of the mail as intended.

Marty
I agree that changing partners would definitely be more of a challenge :waycool:
however, I would suggest that there must have been a better way of describing someone whose style doesn't click with yours - you could maybe just have said "it saves you getting stuck with someone who does not suit your particular dance-style".

I'm sure you would be less than pleased if you heard yourself referred to in a similar manner :sad:
I think all dancers, regardless of anyone's perception of their ability or style deserve some courtesy.

Martin

9th-November-2003, 03:48 PM

I am truely sorry if you have been refered to as a lemon in the past as this must have hit a nerve.

I would never want to go head to head with you (certainly not in a dark ally)

Did you have any comment on the rest of the mail which refered to the original thread of dance comps?

Marty

Tiggerbabe

9th-November-2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Martin
I am truely sorry if you have been refered to as a lemon in the past as this must have hit a nerve.
Not that I'm aware of, Marty - but maybe - have we danced? :wink::rofl: sorry, couldn't resist it! :D

Did you have any comment on the rest of the mail which refered to the original thread of dance comps?
Marty
The point of marking people on rankings is certainly one I would agree with, but then some people like to know exactly why they've been placed 3rd as opposed to 2nd and so on. Also as you say there may be the odd time when politics enter the equation but doubt you can eliminate this whichever system you opt for.

I'm glad I'm not a judge, we got the opportunity to try it recently at the Jive Masters heat and I think it made people realise that it's not as easy as it seems to be.

Re the alley - I'm frightened of the dark, I'm just 5ft 6" and weigh 9stone 4lbs - only dangerous when roused :devil:

Martin

9th-November-2003, 04:36 PM

Glad to have had the intellectual reparse, hope to dance with you soon.

Any further comments please do feel free to PM me.

Otherwise do tell about your comp adventures.

Marty

Daisy

27th-November-2003, 01:55 AM

It is precisely Martins view that prompted me to pull out of the DWAS comp. in Sydney in Sept. I soon realised that the Aussie blokes, in the advanced section, would not be too pleased if they were paired with a Pom that doesn't do big arials!

I'm sure I would have been called several names.....'lemon' being one of the kinder ones.:sad:

Give me the UK version any day. DWAS should be fun as well as a test of the mans ability to lead and the womans to follow. Forget big fancy moves and look at the way the guy takes care of his partner, whatever level dancer she is, gives her the opportunity to look good and most of all.........feels relaxed enough to smile and enjoy it!

One of the nice things, in my oppinion, is the way partners build up a report throughout the rounds and you can see them dancing better together as they progress.

I and others didn't enjoy watching the Aussie version as it was bitty and muddled. One Australian female dancer complained at two Brits being paired up together, even though they rarely danced together when all the other contestants were Aussies from regular venues, and she ended up in the final with a guy she dances with regularly....and won! Some people lose perspective when they got too serious!:really:

Nothing personal Martin...just making a point.

Gary

27th-November-2003, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Daisy
It is precisely Martins view that prompted me to pull out of the DWAS comp. in Sydney in Sept. I soon realised that the Aussie blokes, in the advanced section, would not be too pleased if they were paired with a Pom that doesn't do big arials!

That's a shame :sad: I would hope that it would be unusual for a guy to pout about any move his DWAS partner doesn't know -- that's part of the point of DWAS, you can only go with stuff that's lead/follow-able (generally). It'd be crazy to try big aerial moves with someone you haven't practiced with anyway. I must confess I did a couple of little aerial moves in the DWAS, but only after checking with the girl that she knew them and was OK with them. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have wasted time pouting or name-calling if the girl hadn't known them.

Give me the UK version any day. DWAS should be fun as well as a test of the mans ability to lead and the womans to follow. Forget big fancy moves and look at the way the guy takes care of his partner, whatever level dancer she is, gives her the opportunity to look good and most of all.........feels relaxed enough to smile and enjoy it!

Firstly, haven't danced in UK (yet), so maybe I can't comment.

Secondly, I had major fun in the DWAS, and so did everyone else I talked to about it. "Challenging" needn't mean "not fun".

Thirdly, "big" and "fancy" are in the eye of the beholder, I imagine. I see some advanced couples doing moves in normal freestyle that I think are fancy, but it's just normal to them. I guess in DWAS the couple has to quickly find the level/moves that are comfortable for the couple (but a bit challenging/interesting).

I and others didn't enjoy watching the Aussie version as it was bitty and muddled.

I suspect that this was partly the "avoid regular partners dancing together" thing. If I were running it I would just do a random rotation, and if people end up getting one minute with their regular partner, don't worry about it. If you wanted to be fancy you could arrange the draw so that regular partners were not in the same heat (assuming you're using a computer for the draw here).

One Australian female dancer complained at two Brits being paired up together, even though they rarely danced together when all the other contestants were Aussies from regular venues,

I would guess that she was joking?

DavidB

27th-November-2003, 03:46 AM

I think the two versions of DWAS are so different they shouldn't be compared.

You enter the UK version for fun and to meet someone new. You don't enter with any hope or expectation of getting to the second round, let alone the final or winning. The chance that a beginner can get to dance with one of the top dancers is generally said to be one of the attractions of this format, but these pairings never do well. The judges can only judge in absolute terms - a beginner dancing out of their socks will not look as good as an advanced dancer. So the finals always have the few intermediate/advanced dancers who were lucky enough to get drawn together. But winning is not the point - neither is competing. It is more of a social dance than a competition.

The Australian version is still fun, but in a different way. You enter knowing that the best dancers on the day will make the final, and the hope that you are one of them. You have this chance as an intermediate, an advanced or as a professional dancer. It is not a social dance - it is a competition that tests social dance skills. People enter to see how good they are at leading and following, etc. Marking the individuals and not the couple means that you get more credit for how well you treat your partner, and not less.

I don't think one is better than the other to take part in - they are just different competitions. I'd just like the chance to do both types without having to travel to the other side of the planet.

I didn't like everything about the Aussie version. I don't think aerials should be allowed in any type of DWAS. And if you swap partners a couple of times in the heats, then don't worry if people draw their regular partner. Only worry about it in the final, when you don't swap.

Similarly I don't like everything about the UK version - particularly that by the time the final comes around it is anything but 'Dance with a Stranger'. Some couples will have spent most of the day practising together, and the moves have become too choreographed. If people want to take it that seriously, then they should enter the freestyle instead.

As a spectator I found the Aussie version more interesting to watch than the UK version. I rarely watch the a UK DWAS until the final.

David