Rhythm method?

[Swinging bee]

No it's nothing to do with contraception!


Looking round the dance floor I see people who have been on th MJ scene for years gavorting about in the most ugainly fashion. Their partner has a look of abject terror on their face quickly followed by elation as the dance ends...You know what's coming next don't you!...Yup, it's one of the "rhythmless" people :eek: They have all the moves don't they.! they are usualy totally dedicated and generally very nice people.
But how on earth do you teach them how to dance to a beat? is this something that should have been sorted out in their early days? should it have been spotted and dealt with ? or is it inherent! is it possible to sort out ? would it be unkind to broach the subject? is it too late, or doesn't it matter so long as they are having fun! Does it make a difference which gender they are, because there are both! (although you can sometimes lead a lady to the beat sometimes) Anyway you get the picture:yeah:

[jivecat]

But how on earth do you teach them how to dance to a beat? is this something that should have been sorted out in their early days? should it have been spotted and dealt with ? or is it inherent! is it possible to sort out ? would it be unkind to broach the subject? is it too late, or doesn't it matter so long as they are having fun!

Yes, it does matter because they would have more fun if they could do it properly. And their partners would have more fun.

I think some people can't hear the rhythm easily, or pick out the beat in a complex track. And some people have poor physical coordination so can't respond to it easily. Lots of beginners are so overwhelmed by the mechanics of the move that they have no free attention to pay to the rhythm. And many beginners only get limited personal attention from taxi-dancers and teachers so the problem goes uncorrected.

I think it's not worth broaching the subject with people whose motivation to improve is limited. Others may well be very grateful, though. Trouble is, how do you tell which is which? It's also a lot more embarrassing if the person has already been dancing for years. Any suggestions for tactful ways to mention it?

[LMC]

If they have been dancing for years I just grin and bear it. And only dance with them if they ask me (i.e. I never ask them).

If it's a beginner, then I will tell them (nicely) to relax, slow down (normally it's trying to rush moves that gets them off beat) and recommend an arm-jive or the "5,6,7,8" step to pick the beat up again - and count at them if necessary.

If it's a favourite track of mine, then I will turn them down and sit it out (wouldn't be so rude as to find someone else and would rather "sacrifice" a favourite than dance it with someone who makes my smile a bit fixed). If it's a beginner, I go and find them for another track, if it's someone who's been dancing longer than me then I'm sorry to say that they have to come and ask me again :blush: (and if that makes me evil I don't care, I have a right to a good time just as much as they do)

[ducasi]

There's a girl that I like to dance with who's a bit like that... She only has one speed – fast! So when it's a fast song, she's really fun to dance with...

But the last couple of time I asked her to dance it was for much slower tracks with lots of breaks. By trying to control her much more during these tracks – holding her back for a break where normally she'd be well into the next move before me – I think she's gained an awareness of the problem and as a result the second time we danced was much better than the first.

Oh, I also mentioned to her something that Amir told us, that in Tango the best compliment you can give a lady is to say how well she waits. (Or words to that effect!) That got her to wait for my lead some more.

So that might be how to help a follower who's not following the music. Don't know what you'd do with an out-of-time leader... Maybe just refuse to be led at the wrong speed? Can't be easy though...

[David Bailey]

But how on earth do you teach them how to dance to a beat?:
I dunno - but it is possible for even an apparently-rhythmless person to get it in the end.

Some time ago, I used to dance with a lady who literally had no rhythm. But she was lovely, she followed well and she did marvellous slow dips / drops / seducers / whatever we're calling them now... So I tried to focus mainly on moves which didn't require a specific beat count to work, such as the aforementioned moves. Lots of pauses, in other words.

I then danced with said lady a few months ago - this is with a gap of about 10 years in between - and she's got it, totally rhythmic, absolutely on the beat, and of course even better at the things she was good at back then.

So, it's possible to learn rhythm, and it's possible to lead a non-rhythmic partner, if she can follow.

However, what to do with a non-rhythmic leader, I dunno, I think that's much more difficult to handle.

[Lory]

I'm absolutely sure that a major part of it is inherent but I think a lot depends on how your brought up.

If you live in a house that's devoid of any musical influences, I think that part of the brain can simply shut off. :sad:

To the opposite extreme, in parts of the world where music and rhythm play an enormous part of everyday life, in the spiritual and social sense, this part of the brain becomes very tuned in.

I'm sure, if people really wanted to learn, they could be taught to listen more effectively, even if it's just to tune into the 'Main beat';)

I know lot's of people who are great at dancing to the 'main beat' but often can't hear any of the underlying beats and rhythms within a piece of music, they also fail to pick up on the any phrasing, it's not that they can't hear it, they're just not tuned/tuning into it.

One year I accompanied one of my kids classes on a school trip to 'Acloa' a mock up of an African village, in Essex. All the kids (and parents:na: ) were given a percussion instrument, and one by one, each of us was given a simple but different rhythm to tap out, once that was in full swing, the experts joined in and played about creating very very complex rhythms:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: , it was amazing, very enjoyable, very LOUD:really: and quite a moving experience!:cheers:

[CeeCee]

Originally posted by Swinging Bee
But how on earth do you teach them how to dance to a beat
This is a difficult one. They can’t dance to the beat if they can’t hear the beat.


Originally posted by Lory
…in parts of the world where music and rhythm play an enormous part of everyday life, in the spiritual and social sense, this part of the brain becomes very tuned in.
On more than one occasion I have spent an entire record clapping the beat with a newbie who simply cannot hear the difference between the ostinato and the melody. Some people have a particular difficulty with this but it can be overcome with practice.

Originally posted by jivecat
And some people have poor physical coordination so can't respond to it easily.
This was noted on Saturday night at a local Christmas freestyle which offered free glasses of bubbly on arrival. During the first half an hour, I danced with a chap whose dancing went from slow to even slower, his eyes began to close and his head lowered. The poor chap couldn’t dance to the beat because the booze made him tipsy.
He did apologise, which I thought was sweet.
.

[frodo]

...
So, it's possible to learn rhythm, and it's possible to lead a non-rhythmic partner, if she can follow.

However, what to do with a non-rhythmic leader, I dunno, I think that's much more difficult to handle.
Perhaps it is even useful exercise for a leader.

I can only think of a couple of ladies I've danced with regularly who clearly IMO had less rhythm than I did, and it seemed to make it much more apparent where the lead was inadequate.



...
... ostinato ...
.
That's my new word for the day ( month really ) :). In the unlikely event someone else also wondered from Hutchinson:-

- "Musical pattern that is continuously repeated during a section or throughout a complete piece of music.
The repeating idea may be a rhythmic pattern, part of a tune, or a complete melody."-

[MartinHarper]

Don't know what you'd do with an out-of-time leader... Maybe just refuse to be led at the wrong speed? Can't be easy though...

In my experience, refusing to be led at the "wrong" speed is easy. The hard thing is to follow what is actually being led, even if I think that it is incorrect.

[Trish]

If they have been dancing for years I just grin and bear it. And only dance with them if they ask me (i.e. I never ask them).

If it's a beginner, then I will tell them (nicely) to relax, slow down (normally it's trying to rush moves that gets them off beat) and recommend an arm-jive or the "5,6,7,8" step to pick the beat up again - and count at them if necessary.

If it's a favourite track of mine, then I will turn them down and sit it out (wouldn't be so rude as to find someone else and would rather "sacrifice" a favourite than dance it with someone who makes my smile a bit fixed). If it's a beginner, I go and find them for another track, if it's someone who's been dancing longer than me then I'm sorry to say that they have to come and ask me again :blush: (and if that makes me evil I don't care, I have a right to a good time just as much as they do)

This is similar to what I do. Although I'm blunt enought to tell anyone once. There's one guy who has been dancing for ages and never dances to the rhythm at all, I told him "did you realise the music's faster than this?" and he got quite funny with me, which is his perogative, but he's never asked me to dance again. I see him quite often although never dance with him, and I can't say I'm really too upset, as the experience of dancing with him was pretty excrutiating. From what I gather he's just as bad as he ever was. Perhaps telling him makes me cruel, but if I don't do it, who the hell else is going to? - and it might have worked it's has sometimes :) . Sometimes I can backlead guys and they'll get it eventually but the only way generally I can dance with people like that is to phase out the music in my head and pretend I'm dancing to something else completely or concentrate just on the movement of the following.

With beginners I'm generally very patient, and tell them to try to lower what they're concentrating on to the baseline - either the drums or base guitar, or cymbals if this is where the beat is and get them to clap. If you can get them to tune into this, and stop dancing to the beat of the melody that often works. I also tell them to practice this at home or in the car or whatever.

[Rhythm King]

I had a dance with a certain lady at Hammersmith once, a refusal row-er no less. It was one of those tunes that has an intro at one speed, a break and then goes off at a different tempo. I was trying something vaguely interpretational, to get the dance going when she said "actually I like dancing in time", with a bit of an attitude, and she started bouncing her hand at the tempo of the main tune, which was about to start. Funny thing was she was actually bouncing on the half beat! I said nothing, but gave her a dance of repeated beginners moves :devil: .

In beginners classes, ladies often find it easier to pick up the beat than beginner men, partly because the guys are using a lot of their available mind to cope with remembering moves, moving themselves, trying lead the lady, who is often doing the move herself anyway (frequently ahead of the guy :rolleyes: ), and feeling extremely self-conscious about it all. Come freestyle, they also tend to repeat the move at the speed it was done in the class, regardless of what tune is being played (Oh yeah, and they have to remember to breathe too). Listening to the music comes fairly low down the list unfortunately, but most guys get there eventually. Ladies please be patient with them.

As to terminal, chronic lack of rhythm, who knows what the answer is? If being slapped with a wet haddock is the cure for excessive bouncing, perhaps the percussive application of another fish in 4/4 time could be the solution. The rainbow trout of rhythm perhaps?

[Kev F]

No it's nothing to do with contraception!


Yup, it's one of the "rhythmless" people :eek: They have all the moves don't they.! they are usualy totally dedicated and generally very nice people.
But how on earth do you teach them how to dance to a beat?

Another issue is with certain types of music. Sometimes syncopation can create a dilema to the correct beat of a piece of music. I must admit there are occasional tracks which can catch out even the most experienced dancers. These are ones with a faint beat but a strong rhythmic melody. Difficult to explain so I've found the following site in defence of all beginners and me :innocent:

http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/rhythm/syncopation/syncopation.htm

[Gadget]

This thread has some relevant information and discussion in it:
Who Can't Dance? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5088)

[Nessa]

This thread has some relevant information and discussion in it:
Who Can't Dance? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5088)You know, Gadget, you have WAY too much time on your hands.
I can barely keep up with the CMJ Forum, and it's been pretty quiet lately...

[David Bailey]

This thread has some relevant information and discussion in it:
Who Can't Dance? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5088)
Oh yes; I was thinking that myself, but I couldn't remember what the thread was called - thanks.

I started out with that thread, thinking there were some people who were never going to get it. But, partially because of the discussions there, I've now changed my mind, I now think it's possible to teach anyone rhythm, but that some people take a very looong time to teach.

[ducasi]

This thread has some relevant information and discussion in it:
Who Can't Dance? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5088)
Thanks for digging that thread back up – bit of a flashback moment there... :wink:

Don't think I've changed my mind greatly in the past 8 months... :whistle:

[Andreas]

There's a girl that I like to dance with who's a bit like that... She only has one speed – fast! So when it's a fast song, she's really fun to dance with...

But the last couple of time I asked her to dance it was for much slower tracks with lots of breaks. ...

I usually say in these cases, at least when they are persistently too fast "slow it down please, I can't dance that fast at my age". :D

[Andreas]

... I've now changed my mind, I now think it's possible to teach anyone rhythm, but that some people take a very looong time to teach.
I agree. With some people it is a lot of hard work though, similar to teaching people 50 moves when their retention is only good for 5.