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ducasi
13th-December-2005, 04:40 PM
I thought I had this sussed, what the difference between a dip, a drop and a seducer is, but then someone comes along and says or does something which means I've got to go away and re-think this...

E.g., I've been taught "seducers" that look mightily like a dip, and I've seen what looks like a dip to me described as a drop. Then when I see what I think is a seducer, it's called something else again! :eek:

So, in your mind, what is a drop, what is a dip, and what is a seducer? Are there any similar moves which don't fit with one of these three names?

I suppose leans could be counted in here, but I'm fairly sure I know the difference between a lean and all the others... I think! :confused:

Cheers! :flower:

under par
13th-December-2005, 04:55 PM
I don't know the difference either in the technical sense.

Leans are fairly obvious.( I think!)

The body of follower connects with the body of the leader who then moves his/her body balance slightly away from the follower, maintaing the body contact as the follower leans on him /her, usually followers feet fixed on the floor for duration.

There I have tried with the easy one whos next:wink:

spindr
13th-December-2005, 04:59 PM
I think it's a somewhat artificial exercise to classify them too much:
http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/acrobatic_moves.html

SpinDr

David Franklin
13th-December-2005, 05:10 PM
I thought I had this sussed, what the difference between a dip, a drop and a seducer is, but then someone comes along and says or does something which means I've got to go away and re-think this...

E.g., I've been taught "seducers" that look mightily like a dip, and I've seen what looks like a dip to me described as a drop. Then when I see what I think is a seducer, it's called something else again! :eek:

So, in your mind, what is a drop, what is a dip, and what is a seducer? Are there any similar moves which don't fit with one of these three names?I think MJ is unusual in even trying to make these distinctions. Most other dances call pretty much everything along those lines a drop. In a lot of ways, I'm more comfortable with that than expecting people to know the difference between a dip and seducer. Especially as everyone defines the terms slightly differently, and the moment when your partner is hurtling to the floor is a really bad time to get into such minutae. If pressed, I'd say something like:

"dip" - the woman is lowered, but retains control of her balance. If the man were to let go, she wouldn't fall.

"seducer" - the man holds the woman by "cradling her body to him", rather than by hand holds. The woman is typically lowered beyond the point where she retains control of her balance, but not necessarily. (i.e. a seducer-dip is not an oxymoron).

"drop" - the man holds the woman using hand holds - either hand-to-hand, or hand to body. By the nature of the hold, it is often awkward to only do a drop to a point where the woman can control her balance - it may be better to try and abort the move early.
Also, a "full drop" would be a drop taken as far as is reasonably possible (where safety is a criterion as to reasonableness!) - either to a few inches off the floor, or to full extension in terms of the arms etc.

under par
13th-December-2005, 05:13 PM
I think it's a somewhat artificial exercise to classify them too much:
http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/acrobatic_moves.html

SpinDr


SpinDr I was hoping with the comment elsewhere from Feelinpink that there not more dance topics discussed that this thread could generate a bit of gentle discussion without going to the theory books that are available and the ineviatable Harperlink.:flower:

It doesn't do any harm.:innocent:

Whos gonna try dips then!!!:clap:

David Bailey
13th-December-2005, 05:19 PM
I don't know the difference either in the technical sense.
Thank God, I thought it was just me who always got them confused... :whew icon:

My impression is that drops are when the lady, err, drops down, dips are when the lady just kind of dips (!), and seducers are slow dips.

EDIT: hell, too slow - ignore this, look at Mr Franklin's post for Real Information

spindr
13th-December-2005, 05:24 PM
Generally in leans, both partners are side by side with the follower braced against the leader, so that when the leader steps out to the side their follower will move to the side with them, so that the follower is supported by and leans against the leader's side.


There is no definitive classification of what is a dip and what is a drop, but for the purposes of discussion it is assumed that in a dip the following apply:

1. The follower will support most of her own weight.
2. The leader will be supporting the follower's body.
3. The follower's head will remain at or above the leader's waist height.

Otherwise, the move will be considered to be a drop.

And of course a seducer is a specific move http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/seducer.html, but no one dances it like that any more :)

The above's an artificial categorisation...

SpinDr

Tessalicious
13th-December-2005, 05:25 PM
So, in your mind, what is a drop, what is a dip, and what is a seducer?I've always been confused by this too. I thought that a drop was where the lady is not taking the majority of her weight - but then I realised that it is actually possible to take a large amount of your weight when in a ballroom drop (or at least it will be when I can practise doing it :tears: ).

Can this be defined similarly to aerials, where the distinction is about where the lady's head is (above or below the guy's, um, belt) rather than her feet?
E.g., I've been taught "seducers" that look mightily like a dip, and I've seen what looks like a dip to me described as a drop. Then when I see what I think is a seducer, it's called something else again! :eek:Just because a teacher describes a move as a dip/drop/lean/sit, doesn't mean that is what they are teaching, I'm afraid.
Are there any similar moves which don't fit with one of these three names? Not that I can think of, but the Shoulder Drop has the name but not the move...

EDIT: Ok, me too slow too, guess that's what happens when people at work are inconsiderate enough to disturb me in the middle of writing a post...

Gadget
13th-December-2005, 07:16 PM
Harper-link overload... I was looking for a post I made where I gave a definition so I could copy it again {:whistle:} and found these old threads of mine:
Leans (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3954)
Exiting dips/drops/seducers (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3007)
Drop Avoidance Tactics (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330)

David Franklin
13th-December-2005, 07:30 PM
I was hoping with the comment elsewhere from Feelinpink that there not more dance topics discussed that this thread could generate a bit of gentle discussion without going to the theory books that are available and the ineviatable Harperlink.
Harper-link overload... I was looking for a post I made where I gave a definition so I could copy it again {:whistle:} and found these old threads of mine:
Leans (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3954)
Exiting dips/drops/seducers (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3007)
Drop Avoidance Tactics (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=330)
And adding insult to injury, none of those links actually address Ducasi's original question. :tears:

ducasi
13th-December-2005, 09:19 PM
"dip" - the woman is lowered, but retains control of her balance. If the man were to let go, she wouldn't fall.

"seducer" - the man holds the woman by "cradling her body to him", rather than by hand holds. The woman is typically lowered beyond the point where she retains control of her balance, but not necessarily. (i.e. a seducer-dip is not an oxymoron).

"drop" - the man holds the woman using hand holds - either hand-to-hand, or hand to body. By the nature of the hold, it is often awkward to only do a drop to a point where the woman can control her balance - it may be better to try and abort the move early. Want to thank you David for posting the fullest definitions...

It's interesting though that other posts later on have that their own definitions that don't fully tie up with yours, which is, I guess, why I asked the question in the first place – as I'm not the only person confused about all this!

Your definitions seem to three levels of severity to the drop, which seems like a good way to split it up...

Here's what I had historically though...

A dip was the girl mainly supporting her own weight, but the guy would have at least one hand/arm behind her back and she would also typically hold on to the guy's neck/shoulder for extra support and stability. Thus the "drop" could be no more than a single arm's length.
A drop is exactly that – in that if the guy lets go, the girl would drop to the ground, no matter how much of her weight she is taking, she's relying on the guy to keep her up. I'm thinking of the ballroom drop, and similar things.
A seducer is a different class of move where the lady will dip away from the guy, like on the front of the Ceroc beginner's DVD:
http://www.network.ceroc.com/images/shop/thumb_34modernjivebeginners.jpg

So these sort-of match up with what you said, apart from the seducer, which is the one I'm most confused by.

I've been taught a "first move seducer", and a "first move safe dip", and they were identical. I'd have thought the seducer would be less "safe", based on your definitions.

I'm still confused. :confused:

Oh, and Tessalicious, talking of moves with the name that isn't... "First Move Basic Dip" – was I disappointed when I saw this one?!

David Franklin
13th-December-2005, 09:40 PM
Want to thank you David for posting the fullest definitions...

It's interesting though that other posts later on have that their own definitions that don't fully tie up with yours, which is, I guess, why I asked the question in the first place – as I'm not the only person confused about all this!Given just about the first thing I said is "most people outside MJ just call everything a drop and be done with it", this is hardly surprising.


Your definitions seem to three levels of severity to the drop, which seems like a good way to split it up...No, and I hoped I'd made this reasonably clear (obviously not!). In my terminology (and I make no claim to speak for anyone else!), "dip" is a measure of severity, but drop and seducer describe the way the man holds the woman. I explicitly said that you could have a "seducer-dip" where the man holds the lady as for a seducer, but doesn't lower her to the point where she cannot control her weight.

A seducer is a different class of move where the lady will dip away from the guy, like on the front of the Ceroc beginner's DVD:
That looks like some kind of layback to me, not a seducer. Again, in terms of how I see things, this bit is completely wrong (sorry). In general, any weight support move is easier the closer the lady's center is to the man's center. In a seducer, rather than holding the lady up, you are essentially holding her to you - which makes it one of the easiest ways of taking her weight.

To talk ancient history, David Barker posted this on usenet (http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.arts.dance/browse_frm/thread/ad21e03ef71d547c/11399831d9062a0f?lnk=st&q=rec.arts.dance+drop+hand+barker&rnum=1#11399831d9062a0f) back in '99:

I would rank the different types of aerials/drops as follows

Drop with both mans hands on the lady's body
Drop with one hands on the lady's body, the other holding the hand
2 handed, hand-to-hand drop
1 handed drop, with the hand on the body
1 handed, hand-to-hand drop *
Waist level lift
Shoulder level lift

Note the emphasis on the hand hold, rather than the depth of the drop. Simply put, for most people, the way you hold the woman is far more important in terms of difficulty than how far you lower her.

[N.B. as you may guess from my emphasis, these things tend to be somewhat personal - different body types will find different things hard or easy. Some of what I've said is based on what I think most people will find to be the case, not actually what works for me. For example, as a strong but not particularly large guy, these days I find I'm much happier doing drops than seducers with larger ladies. Drops may require more strength, but I don't usually find that a problem, and drops generally keep their center of mass more favourably positioned than seducers do. I would say this is not at all typical, however].

ducasi
13th-December-2005, 10:20 PM
Cheers David, I think I've got you now...

Just need to work on my seduction technique, now I know where I was going wrong. :wink:

Gadget
14th-December-2005, 12:49 AM
And adding insult to injury, none of those links actually address Ducasi's original question. :tears:
picky, picky, picky... I just thought that those links would be of relevance and give more insight.

From the glossary section of my Forum FAQ (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3458)

Aerial or Air-step - when both a dancer's feet leave the floor. Think 'ice-skating'. There is discussion on this forum about what is and is not an aerial, aerials in competition etc. Note: "Arial" is a washing powder; try not to confuse the two.

Dip or Seducer - Where the follower is dipped in the lead's arms; in these moves, the person being dipped supports most of their own weight and uses the partner for balance more than support.
{My take on the difference between the two is the lead's body position and how/if they follow the follower down}

Drop - A move where the follower must trust the lead to take most of their weight. Normally lower than a Dip and the follower "Freefalls" into it.

David Franklin
14th-December-2005, 09:08 AM
Drop - A move where the follower must trust the lead to take most of their weight. Normally lower than a Dip and the follower "Freefalls" into it.I really don't like part of this definition. As a general rule, the follower should not free fall in any kind of dip or drop.

Gadget
14th-December-2005, 01:36 PM
I put it in quotes because it's the closest single word I could think on without expanding it by another couple of sentances: in this context the intention is...
... that momentum and direction are maintained with the follower's upper body while the feet remain in place. The lead guides as they brace to cushion the follower's momentum into the lowest point of the drop.

Better? :flower:

David Franklin
14th-December-2005, 01:56 PM
I put it in quotes because it's the closest single word I could think on without expanding it by another couple of sentances: in this context the intention is...
... that momentum and direction are maintained with the follower's upper body while the feet remain in place. The lead guides as they brace to cushion the follower's momentum into the lowest point of the drop.

Better? :flower:Not really. Momentum is, I suppose, better than "free fall", but I think drops should involve as little momentum as possible; your description implies the momentum is a desirable thing. (once you're good at drops, you can decide you want to use momentum to make them faster and more dramatic. But at that point you don't need glossarys...)

Rhythm King
14th-December-2005, 02:29 PM
For what it's worth, here's my take: -

I divide these moves into Dips, Drops and Leans.

A Dip: The lady maintains her own weight and balance and mostly keeps her back vertical, ie her balance is centred over her feet. The variation in height is made by both partners bending the knees and may be accompanied by a rotating motion. It is possible to add variation and style by the lady laying back somewhat to give a sweeping motion, but not so far as to compromise her balance and being counterbalanced by the man doing likewise. Any further and it becomes a drop.

A Drop: The lady should support most of her weight, usually by keeping one leg bent under her and relying on the man for balance, by various handholds, according to the type of drop. A drop may be shallow - the lady keeps all of her own balance, or deep - she relies on the man completely for support. A drop is a mutual move - the depth of it is led by the man offering and the lady accepting. Personally I don't want a woman to throw herself uncontrolled at the floor (I have a bad back) and similarly I don't expect to force a deep drop on someone who doesn't want it, for what ever reason they might have (bad back, or unsuitable clothing etc). I won't do a deep drop with someone I a) don't know, b) don't trust, or c) know doesn't like them.

A lean: The lady's weight is partially supported against me in close contact, but in such a way that she can balance if necessary, by stepping acroos/forward with one foot if necessary. Both partners side by side, facing either the same way, eg comb lean, or opposite ways eg Astaire lean. A lean can be used as a lead into a drop.

I consider a seducer to be a style of drop, with variations, in the way that there is a ballroom drop, with variations, or a hook drop, with variations, rather than a type of move in its own right.

Hope this helps

R-K

Minnie M
14th-December-2005, 03:05 PM
I still like calling them "Drips and Drops" - named after a lot of the guys who attempt them on the dance floor :whistle:

ChrisA
14th-December-2005, 03:35 PM
but I think drops should involve as little momentum as possible;

....... :yeah:


once you're good at drops, you can decide you want to use momentum to make them faster and more dramatic.
Not without risk though.

Earlier this year after Blackpool Jayne and I thought we'd take the five or so drops we used in comps, and do exactly that for Hammersmith - establish a more "slam dunk" entry for dramatic effect.

I had a very minor tendon injury (caused, ironically, by a little over-enthusiastic strength training), which I'd had before, had always cleared up in about a week, and didn't really affect anything. Then in practice, I got the entry into a simple ballroom drop (accelerated so as to hit the break) a little bit wrong, and most of Jayne's weight, travelling at some speed, went through the slightly weakened tendon connecting my right bicep to the forearm.

The air went blue, and we virtually couldn't practice at all until about a week before the comp. So if you saw us and thought we were rubbish, that was why... :tears:

... and it took months to get better. It's still not quite 100%.

So a big NO, as Dave says, to any significant momentum going into a drop, especially with a social partner, without being extremely aware of the risks.

Even with someone with whom you know exactly what you're doing, it can go perfectly 20 times, and then f*** up on the 21st, and do some real damage.

DavidB
14th-December-2005, 04:31 PM
I have no idea what the difference between a seducer and a drop is. I suspect it has more to do with marketing than dancing.

To me, a dip is something the lady could do by herself. She doesn't need the man for support.

A drop is where the man provides support to stop the lady falling. A lean is a type of drop where the man supports the lady with his body, rather than his arms.

By my definition, only a dip is leadable. You cannot lead/follow a drop or a lean via a connection.

ChrisA
14th-December-2005, 06:21 PM
By my definition, only a dip is leadable. You cannot lead/follow a drop or a lean via a connection.
Drops can be refused though, can they not?

So something has happened for the lady to know that there's one coming, and in enough time for her to refuse it in such a way that the guy should not force the issue.

A tad narrow to refuse to allow that as a "lead", perhaps?

Although social dance floors would be safer if more people restricted themselves to that definition of lead and follow.

DavidB
14th-December-2005, 06:28 PM
So something has happened for the lady to know that there's one comingYou mean a signal? :devil:


A tad narrow to refuse to allow that as a "lead", perhaps?I was careful to say "Lead /Follow via a connection". It all comes down to your definition of that.

ChrisA
14th-December-2005, 07:02 PM
You mean a signal? :devil:

Touché :nice:

I suppose I do. Though obviously not in the conventional sense. I'm thinking now about how I "lead" a simple ballroom drop. Unlike moves like the pretzel where I rather unpopularly insist that it's leadable with the lady blindfolded (provided she leaves her hand in a nice catchable position), I'm not at all sure the ballroom drop (and by analogy, other drops, particularly harder ones) is in the same category, except maybe very slowly.

There's the hand-hold for a start... and the raising of the arms... and the stabilising of the guy's weight... they all add up to "there's a drop coming" - which the lady can then either be up for or not.

I guess that's more like a signal than a lead through a connection as we would use the term.

Though if you think about the moment of refusal, if it happens, there's certainly a resistance there, which the guy would be ill-advised to ignore.

Would you allow that as "connection"?



I was careful to say "Lead /Follow via a connection".
I know you were, hence my second comment about safety on social dance floors.

Gadget
15th-December-2005, 01:34 AM
Not really. Momentum is, I suppose, better than "free fall", but I think drops should involve as little momentum as possible;
Appologies - my mistake; I was using the term "Momentum" in relation to kinetic energy and the laws of conservation of momentum.

Thinking about it more, I would probably completley change my definitions {IMHO of course...}:
Drops are where the follower is supported by hand holds where both partner's bodys/cores are at a distance
Dips/seducers are where the lead could support their partner's body/torso.
Leans are perfectly described by DavidB: your partner being supported by your body rather than your hands.
Laybacks/lean aways are kind of an inverse lean where the force keeping partners together is tension rather than compression

All these moves are 'grouped together' because they involve a large element of trust from the follower to the lead (that the lead can actually do the move and not land them on their back) and from the lead to the follower (that they are going to actually follow and not throw themselves into it)
If this trust is missing, then the move should be refused.

{BTW any move can be refused - that's what hi-jacking is :wink:}


By my definition, only a dip is leadable. You cannot lead/follow a drop or a lean via a connection.If you define "Leadable" and "connection" to only involve hands, then perhaps...
If you further define "Lead" as something that the follower may conceously choose to follow and have input into {rather than just going allong for the ride}, then perhaps...
But I'm still to be convinced. Especially about leans.

MartinHarper
15th-December-2005, 01:37 AM
You cannot lead/follow a ... lean via a connection.

Via a connection, I can lead my partner to tranfer all her weight onto her left foot. Sometimes.
Via a connection, I can lead my partner to translate her torso to her left.

If I lead my partner to transfer her weight onto her left foot, and then lead her to move to her left, she'll normally follow the lead by doing a right-left shufflestep of some kind.

If I place my body to her left, with my right foot directly next to her left foot, and apply the same lead, then she is unable to shufflestep. If she wishes to follow my lead, she therefore has to go into some form of lean.

So, I guess I don't understand.

ChrisA
15th-December-2005, 02:01 AM
then she is unable to
There you go.

You could do it with a fencepost, and it would have to go with you as well. No lead/follow there either.

David Franklin
15th-December-2005, 09:11 AM
Appologies - my mistake; I was using the term "Momentum" in relation to kinetic energy and the laws of conservation of momentum.OK, consider me officially confused. Momentum isn't normally related to KE outside of discussions of Einstein's theory of relativity. I really don't want to see a drop fast enough that relativistic effects are significant!

For that matter, and being slightly less pedantic - clearly momentum isn't conserved during a drop (well, it's transfered to that great big momentum sink called the Earth). So I'd be very cautious about any argument about drops based on conservation of momentum.

ducasi
15th-December-2005, 10:10 AM
By my definition, only a dip is leadable. You cannot lead/follow a drop or a lean via a connection. I think the point that David is making is that only in the dip is the lady fully in control of her own weight, and so she is able to follow a lead into the dip.

All the others require the lady to give up control at some point to the man who will then "manhandle" (sorry, not a good word!) the lady through the move. During this time there is no lead and follow.

(The alternative when the lady tries to execute the move without the help of the man is when accidents happen.)

David Bailey
15th-December-2005, 10:27 AM
I think the point that David is making is that only in the dip is the lady fully in control of her own weight, and so she is able to follow a lead into the dip.
That sounds sensible - to me, a dip involves less weight-transfer than a drop, in so far as I've ever considered the differences. And to me, a seducer is a slow dip. Or possibly a slow drop. :devil:


All the others require the lady to give up control at some point to the man who will then "manhandle" (sorry, not a good word!) the lady through the move. During this time there is no lead and follow.
Again that seems to make sense - hence arials and drops can be classed similarly, in that it's difficult for the follower to hijack a move if she's being held above the man's head. Not impossible of course... :innocent:

MartinHarper
15th-December-2005, 06:13 PM
... then she is unable to shufflestep.


There you go.

You could do it with a fencepost, and it would have to go with you as well. No lead/follow there either.

If I lead my partner to place all her weight on her left foot, and then lead her to step backwards, then she is unable to step back on her left foot, and must therefore step back with her right foot. There's lead/follow there too.


(a lean) requires the lady to give up control at some point to the man who will then "manhandle" (sorry, not a good word!) the lady through the move. During this time there is no lead and follow.

So, the initial lean is leadable, but once the girl is leant past the point of no return, and is not in control of her own weight, there's then no lead/follow going on until the exit to the lean. Ok, I agree with that.

Similarly, in a Cerocspin, once my partner is spinning, and we're not touching each other, and she's not looking at me, then for that brief period of time, there's no lead/follow going on.

PretzelMeister
17th-December-2005, 04:18 PM
....... :yeah:

Not without risk though.

Earlier this year after Blackpool Jayne and I thought we'd take the five or so drops we used in comps, and do exactly that for Hammersmith - establish a more "slam dunk" entry for dramatic effect.

I had a very minor tendon injury (caused, ironically, by a little over-enthusiastic strength training), which I'd had before, had always cleared up in about a week, and didn't really affect anything. Then in practice, I got the entry into a simple ballroom drop (accelerated so as to hit the break) a little bit wrong, and most of Jayne's weight, travelling at some speed, went through the slightly weakened tendon connecting my right bicep to the forearm.

The air went blue, and we virtually couldn't practice at all until about a week before the comp. So if you saw us and thought we were rubbish, that was why... :tears:

... and it took months to get better. It's still not quite 100%.

So a big NO, as Dave says, to any significant momentum going into a drop, especially with a social partner, without being extremely aware of the risks.

Even with someone with whom you know exactly what you're doing, it can go perfectly 20 times, and then f*** up on the 21st, and do some real damage.

Hi Chris,

Sorry to hear your arm was a bit sore but a more worried about Jayne's head! Was it a case of your arm packing-in but you still managed to safely save from Jayne's POV, or was it total wipe-out and Jayne hit the deck at speed?

I also sometimes will really try to accelerate my partner into a drop (ballroom and various others) to nail a fast break. And, especially as the ladies' can feel their hair on the floor at the low-point of the drop, the potential for serious injury to the lady does come in to mind from time to time. I'm glad to say (other than a single incident incident when practising a new aerial in a workshop - sorry BeeBee :blush: ) I've not (yet!) let anyone hit the floor - although admittedly I've only been dancing for just over a year and a half.

So while I'm acutely aware of the potential for screw-up, I try not to actually think about that when I'm dancing / in a dance venue - as I'm sure if I've got thoughts in my mind of the lady's head hitting the floor then there's a higher chance that's exactly where it would end up! [Now I come to think about it, that's why the single incident I referred to happened: we were doing the Swan Dive, and I was so worried about Linda hitting her head off the floor on the 'dive thru the legs bit' than I bent over to look down and see there was enough ground clearance. And doh! Looking down while I had my arms wrapped-around her waist with her upside down did, of course, lower her head closer to the floor! Thankfully, we were doing it very slowly, it sounded like quite a bad dunt but she was abolutely A-ok, and we carried on practising a few minutes later.]

Have you heard of many instances of serious injuries (esp. to ladies) from accelerated entries to drops - as opposed to general drop-gone-wrong horror stories?

PM

David Franklin
18th-December-2005, 10:25 AM
Have you heard of many instances of serious injuries (esp. to ladies) from accelerated entries to drops - as opposed to general drop-gone-wrong horror stories?Depends what you call serious - wrenched shoulders and minor whiplash aren't uncommon. (Often it's as much the lady not having quite enough time to prepare herself as the sudden deceleration - but the combination isn't good).

ChrisA
18th-December-2005, 01:27 PM
Sorry to hear your arm was a bit sore but a more worried about Jayne's head! Was it a case of your arm packing-in but you still managed to safely save from Jayne's POV

Exactly that. Jayne wasn't hurt at all - I didn't let her hit the floor.

Gadget
18th-December-2005, 08:53 PM
I'm glad to say (other than a single incident incident when practising a new aerial in a workshop - sorry BeeBee :blush: ) I've not (yet!) let anyone hit the floor - although admittedly I've only been dancing for just over a year and a half.
If I look back on how my dancing was after a year and a half of dancing, I would cringe at some of the things I did. Not that they were "Wrong" as such, but over-enthusiastic, lack of discapline and self-controll, lack of true understanding of my partner and leading...
Don't get me wrong, I think I was still an OK dancer; but I don't think that I would have been able to do aerial's with the attentiveness I think should be applied.

PretzelMeister may be an excelent dancer and pick it up quickly. As posted, it may only be in workshops that these moves are done, but should there be some sort of "criteria" or "test" before learning these moves?
Should there be a guideline of how long you have to have danced for or what other workshops you have done?... ??