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JonD
10th-December-2005, 04:01 AM
How do people avoid the "Dance Meat" phenomenon? I mean those occasions when a leader just can't get off the floor and you feel like you're just some kind of machine for whooshing women around to music. You're being grabbed for a dance all the time; you're dancing with someone and can see two other women circling ready to pounce as soon as the track finishes; you escape to the bar and someone comes up and asks you to dance when you are sitting chatting. Partners who don't look at you, offer you no connection and only seem interested in their own dance gratification leave you feeling like a piece of meat. I'm sure it's more an emotional reaction than reality but it can ruin an evening all the same.

It only happens to me at a local level and certainly not all the time. Nonetheless, a month or so ago I really got quite disenchanted with MJ because of it. I know that a couple of the guys who dance locally, and who I respect and admire, are feeling the same thing at the moment - it's taking the fun out of their dancing and making it feel like a treadmill. I know you can decline a dance on the grounds that you've promised it to someone else or are resting, but when you've got 10 women on your "I've promised" list and they start looking hurt and disappointed every time you walk by them it can really take the edge off the evening. Plus, you start to feel you are spending a huge amount of time dancing with women who aren't interested in improving their own dancing and do precious little to improve and challenge your own.

When I'm coaching, normally every other week, I commit the whole night (apart from the last 2 tracks) to dancing with beginners or people who ask. As far as I can gather I have a reputation for being approachable and dancing with people of all standards and of making my partners feel good about their dancing so please don't accuse me of being a "hotshot". That debate really doesn't need re-hashing and won't go anywhere.

Guys, what techniques do you use to avoid being dance meat? I've tried draping my towel over my shoulder but that doesn't seem to work and I've even had a woman pull it off and chuck it onto a seat as she asked me to dance. One friend says avoiding eye contact when not on the floor and generally adopting "closed down" body language works for him but that's not my natural state and I'm there to have fun.

Ladies, what signals should we give out to avoid becoming dance meat? Is there some magic trick which will say "Please be considerate and give me a chance to chose my own partners" without giving any offence?

philsmove
10th-December-2005, 10:14 AM
Last night I when to my first Milonga ( tango party)
I was very very nervous and tried to hide in a corner along with several other male beginners
I am very please to say we were pestered all night by ladies wanting to dance with us
We all had a wonderful evening
So ladies don’t let John comments put you off asking us to dance

Most of us love it

Lory
10th-December-2005, 10:36 AM
Ladies, what signals should we give out to avoid becoming dance meat? Is there some magic trick which will say "Please be considerate and give me a chance to chose my own partners" without giving any offence?

The trouble is, some women seem to have no 'shame', 'sensitivity' or feeling,

I always try to make eye contact before asking and it only takes a second to work out if the guys 'up for it' or not, so if I don't detect that glint of interest, I wouldn't venture to ask. :blush:


That split second facial expression can say a thousand words...:clap: or ;) or :grin: or :sick: or :what: or :rolleyes: or :tears: or :o or :eek: or my favorite :D

For me, there could be nothing worse than dancing with a guy who'd rather not! :sad:

So sorry Jon, I don't have an answer, other than making yourself big sign saying 'RESTING' :confused:

El Salsero Gringo
10th-December-2005, 11:05 AM
I mean those occasions when a leader just can't get off the floor and you feel like you're just some kind of machine for whooshing women around to music. You're being grabbed for a dance all the time; you're dancing with someone and can see two other women circling ready to pounce as soon as the track finishes;A PM to Dancing Teeth (Viktor) might get you a helpful reply - sounds like the two of you have a lot in common.

JonD
10th-December-2005, 11:30 AM
A PM to Dancing Teeth (Viktor) might get you a helpful reply - sounds like the two of you have a lot in common.
Nah - I'm a plain old pork chop. Viktor is fillet steak!

under par
10th-December-2005, 11:47 AM
If comparing oneself to the JIVEMASTER Champion, Mr Dancing Teeth, I am a reconstituted chicken nugget.:blush:

Lory
10th-December-2005, 11:52 AM
If comparing oneself to the JIVEMASTER Champion, Mr Dancing Teeth, I am a reconstituted chicken nugget.:blush:
Your so wrong on this one, I'm almost tempted to neg rep you! :devil: :rolleyes: :flower:

WittyBird
10th-December-2005, 12:07 PM
Your so wrong on this one, I'm almost tempted to neg rep you! :devil: :rolleyes: :flower:

Ditto :worthy:

TheTramp
10th-December-2005, 12:30 PM
Your so wrong on this one, I'm almost tempted to neg rep you! :devil: :rolleyes: :flower:

True, true. But he will get better!

What are you suggesting then? Half a mouldy carrot? :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
10th-December-2005, 12:50 PM
Nah - I'm a plain old pork chop. Viktor is fillet steak!In that case, just dance where he dances. The women will being queueing up for him and leave you alone.

Simple, eh?

under par
10th-December-2005, 12:59 PM
True, true. But he will get better!

What are you suggesting then? Half a mouldy carrot? :devil:


Re: Dance Meat
I considered all manner of meat products......(come on Trampy stay on thread for once!) but I do hope to get better thanks............... I am just a beginner you know..:innocent:

Lynn
10th-December-2005, 01:00 PM
The trouble is, some women seem to have no 'shame', 'sensitivity' or feeling,
I think Lory has identified the problem here - these sound like ladies who won't take a hint (avoiding making eye contact as you walk off the floor, carrying a towel etc) so I don't know what you can do other than saying 'I need a break'.

I always try to make eye contact before asking and it only takes a second to work out if the guys 'up for it' or not, so if I don't detect that glint of interest, I wouldn't venture to ask. :blush:

That split second facial expression can say a thousand words...:clap: or ;) or :grin: or :sick: or :what: or :rolleyes: or :tears: or :o or :eek: or my favorite :D

For me, there could be nothing worse than dancing with a guy who'd rather not! :sad: OK, so I rarely ask, but when I do I use these methods. I would never ask a guy who looks like he wants a break, is heading off the dance floor in a determined manner, has picked up a towel etc. I ask guys who look like they want to dance again.

So sorry Jon, I don't have an answer, other than making yourself big sign saying 'RESTING' :confused: Might be worth a try!

I did once try the 'stalking' method, hovering round, looking for an opportunity to ask - and yes it was Viktor, and I had no chance of sucess - all the other women were much better at it than me!

Andreas
10th-December-2005, 02:08 PM
It is a tough job being in demand, isn't it? :rofl:

If you really can't help it I'd go with ESG's recommendation, seek the venues Viktor dances at ;)

JonD
10th-December-2005, 02:15 PM
other than making yourself big sign saying 'RESTING'
Thanks Lory! Unfortunately the "resting" thing doesn't work because if I say that then I can't, in all conscience, dance with someone else for a few tracks. That's why I tend to say that I've promised the dance to someone else and then go and seek out the person I really want to dance with.

I know some people could assume that I'm being big-headed and rate myself as some kind of "super dancer" but I assure you that I'm not. I'm just an ordinary "pot-roast" kind of dancer but I do smile, make eye contact, am told I have a light but clear lead, play with the music and never tut! I'm sure it happens to loads of other leaders all over the country and I'm sure good followers sometimes feel the same. As I said, for me it is a local phenomenon - for great dancers like Dancing Teeth it is a national thing and must become a nightmare at times.

Maybe we should castigate "Dance Carnivores" in the same way as we castigate "Hotshots". I'm a great fan of the MJ ethos - it's incredibly welcoming and creates a fabulous atmostphere at most venues. But, as with all things, there is a downside and the Dance Meat phenomenon is one of them. I guess it's just something that people have to put up with. Still, I hate it when some of the best local leaders I know (considerably better than me) stop coming to classes regularly because they're fed up with being on the Dance Meat carvery all evening - that doesn't help anyone.

Mary
10th-December-2005, 02:17 PM
It is a tough job being in demand, isn't it? :rofl:

If you really can't help it I'd go with ESG's recommendation, seek the venues Viktor dances at ;)


Excellent idea! Or go to somewhere where there are a lot of other 'in demand' male dancers - like Funky-Lush. That way everyone gets a chance to ask and be asked, and take a breather - except David Barker of course.:devil: :wink:

M

El Salsero Gringo
10th-December-2005, 02:29 PM
I've tried draping my towel over my shoulder but that doesn't seem to workPut the towel over your head instead. If they're really persistent you may need to do the funcky chicken walk and make clucking noises for a bit until they get the message.

You know, for a moment there I was living in a nightmare world in which the question at the top of this thread was supposed to be taken seriously.

Cruella
10th-December-2005, 02:40 PM
:devil:
I so wish i was a man sometimes! I would love to be in this situation just once to see if it's really that bad! I get sick of sitting around missing out on some favourite song because i can't find a man to dance with. As a woman the down side to MJ is the complete opposite to your complaint. I want to find a venue where there are only half as many women as men.;) Dream...........
The only answer is obvious, to encourage more men to dance! So what incentive do we need to get more men into MJ? Come on men give us some ideas PLEASE!!!

David Bailey
10th-December-2005, 02:52 PM
JonD, I know exactly what you mean - trouble is, it's very difficult to articulate it without sounding all "Ooh, look at me, I'm so popular" (and no, I know that's not what you were trying to say - just that this is easy to misunderstand).

Because there are usually more women than men, sometimes (e.g. Camber weekenders) a lot more, and because MJ is a "anyone can and does ask anyone to dance" culture (which is a good thing of course), there'll always be times when a reasonably competent male dancer will be, basically, mobbed.

I don't think I've ever been mobbed, but I've occasionally noticed someone hanging around clearly wanting to dance with me next. And, yes, it's flattering and yes, it's ego-boosting. But it also removes the element of choice - and yes, sometimes it does feel like you're being passed around, and that it'd be nice to be able to take a rest, chill out, maybe find some people you want to dance with - that sort of thing.

However, as I said, trying to articulate this sometimes comes out as whinge-y. Not that I've got anything against a whinge of course - it's what I live for - but if it's bad for the men in that situation, it's even worse for the women. They have to do the queueing, hang around, grab men who are closest, etc. So it's unlikely this whinge will get much respect from the forumettes...

To me. the key to this problem is the uneven male-female ratio. If there were even numbers, we'd all take our chances. Which is why I have respect for organisers of events (e.g. Greenwich) and weekenders (e.g. Southport and Storm) who are prepared to put the effort and time into arranging the numbers this way.


It only happens to me at a local level and certainly not all the time
One obvious solution is to change venues for a while - if people don't know you so well, they're less likely to mob you. Hardly an ideal solution, because presumably you like your local...


Guys, what techniques do you use to avoid being dance meat?
Honestly, the only realistic technique is to not be anywhere near the dance floor. If you're there, you should be available to dance...


Is there some magic trick which will say "Please be considerate and give me a chance to chose my own partners" without giving any offence?
Not that I know of - if you find one, please let me know though :)


Last night I when to my first Milonga ( tango party)
Ooh, I went to my first one on Weds with a group of fellow-beginners. We weren't mobbed at all though, strange that :tears:

DavidB
10th-December-2005, 02:53 PM
Don't knock it - most of the alternatives are far worse (eg wanting to dance, but everyone refuses you)

Having said that, I know what you mean. My preference would be to dance to half the tracks played in a night. I like a break, I like to watch other people dance, and occasionally would like to finish my beer before it has gone warm.

The trick is avoiding being asked in the first place.

One way of doing that is to go outside the room. You have to make sure you dance near an exit to the room, so you can get out when you want to.

Walk like you are going somewhere, and don't look round. If you are going to the bar, then always get 2 drinks - even if one is just a glass of tap water. Some people will expect you to put your own drink down, but won't stop you taking a drink back to someone else.

But the best thing to do is ask ladies to dance, rather than always wait for them to ask you. If you get a reputation for never refusing a dance, but never asking in the first place, then the ladies will realise this. They will take their opportunity whenever they can.
But if they know you will ask them at some point, they will wait. It is far nicer to be asked by a good dancer than to have to ask them yourself

David

Andreas
10th-December-2005, 02:57 PM
Does your husband dance? :whistle: :yum:

Lory
10th-December-2005, 03:02 PM
but I do smile, make eye contact, am told I have a light but clear lead, play with the music and never tut!
I think you've identified the problem here....they're all convinced you love dancing with them, you make them ALL feel comfortable and welcome to ask, they get eye contact and a smile, which gives out the message that 'you've' enjoyed the dance no matter how negative their body language was;)

There is a solution....:cool: only send the 'above' signals to the ones you like dancing with BUT I doubt you'll be able to do this, cos basically, youre a nice bloke:)

I'd never ask someone to dance again who I didn't get positive body language from the first time. :sick:

Similarly, I have a stupid little rule i've made for myself, I'll ask a man to dance on two, maybe three occasions but never more, if they don't ask me back, I simply assume they don't enjoy dancing with me enough to ask me! :(

Maybe i'm a bit too sensitive but I do need a bit of reassurance.

I did get told off once though....
A guy said, Hey, why don't we dance anymore? and I said, that's cos you don't ask and it's your turn, he looked terribly upset :sad: and said, Listen, I just don't get the chance... please rescue me occasionally, cos I 'do' love dancing with you... :flower:

but how was I supposed to know:confused:

Andreas
10th-December-2005, 03:03 PM
I like to watch other people dance

Yeah, I never managed to do that in NZ. I do have improved on my rejective looks somehow since coming to the UK. Perhaps I only found spots where to park myself for a short while before being discovered. But I definitely at long last manage to watch other dancers every now and again. :flower:


The trick is avoiding being asked in the first place.

One way of doing that is to go outside the room. You have to make sure you dance near an exit to the room, so you can get out when you want to.

Walk like you are going somewhere, and don't look round.

We appear to have read the same book. :rofl:


If you are going to the bar, then always get 2 drinks - even if one is just a glass of tap water. Some people will expect you to put your own drink down, but won't stop you taking a drink back to someone else.

Now THAT is sneaky! :worthy: :rofl:


But the best thing to do is ask ladies to dance, rather than always wait for them to ask you. If you get a reputation for never refusing a dance, but never asking in the first place, then the ladies will realise this. They will take their opportunity whenever they can.
But if they know you will ask them at some point, they will wait. It is far nicer to be asked by a good dancer than to have to ask them yourself

That must be my fault. :blush:

David Bailey
10th-December-2005, 03:17 PM
Similarly, I have a stupid little rule i've made for myself, I'll ask a man to dance on two, maybe three occasions but never more, if they don't ask me back, I simply assume they don't enjoy dancing with me enough to ask me! :(
:eek: :blush: :tears:

We've all got those rules I reckon. My main one is, if I'm refused, I won't ask that person again on that night - I figure if she wants to dance, she'll ask me.

Maybe we should have these rules printed on T-shirts or something :)

I also like the sneaky "Two glasses in hand" trick - I wonder how many more guys we'll see holding two glasses at venues from now on, maybe it'll be the new mark of a hotshot. :rofl:

under par
10th-December-2005, 03:20 PM
:eek: :blush: :tears:



I also like the sneaky "Two glasses in hand" trick - I wonder how many more guys we'll see holding two glasses at venues from now on, maybe it'll be the new mark of a hotshot. :rofl:


I suppose the message for "Fcuk Off I really don't want to dance! " would be 3 or more glasses of drink:whistle:

MartinHarper
10th-December-2005, 03:24 PM
How do people avoid the "Dance Meat" phenomenon? I mean those occasions when a leader just can't get off the floor and you feel like you're just some kind of machine for whooshing women around to music.

I dance badly.

If only guys like yourself had Freedom of Refusal (http://72.232.2.194/~fpauly/forum/showthread.php?t=4756).

Lory
10th-December-2005, 03:25 PM
I suppose the message for "Fcuk Off I really don't want to dance! " would be 3 or more glasses of drink:whistle:
Surely a true Hotshot would have a tray! :D

TheTramp
10th-December-2005, 03:36 PM
Surely a true Hotshot would have a tray! :D
And be able to balance a drink on their head while walking back to their seat too!

Lynn
10th-December-2005, 04:11 PM
Walk like you are going somewhere, and don't look round. I once found myself in that situation - main floor at Southport - I really wanted a drink of water, I tried walking purposefully to the edge of the floor after a dance, not looking round - but it still took me about 3 attempts. (I didn't mind at all, it was lovely being asked.) And that was as a woman at a balanced event. It must be like that all the time for men at an event where there are a lot of extra ladies.

But if they know you will ask them at some point, they will wait. It is far nicer to be asked by a good dancer than to have to ask them yourselfI don't mind waiting till I'm asked, in fact I much prefer it. Especially the good dancers who I know are in demand, its so nice when they ask and I'm not very likely to ask them as I know so many other women are. But they have to get a chance to be allowed to ask.

Cruella
10th-December-2005, 04:38 PM
Does your husband dance? :whistle: :yum:
I have to presume this question was to me (as there was no quote) In fact he is coming dancing tonight with me and he can manage enough moves to get through a track. The frustrating thing is he would be good if he was interested, as he picks up the moves very quickly and has good rythmn. But he just isn't that bothered, trust me i've tried for years to get him into it as i would love to have a permanent dance partner that i could do any move with without my inhibitions getting in the way.:sad:

ChrisA
10th-December-2005, 05:30 PM
Partners who don't look at you, offer you no connection and only seem interested in their own dance gratification leave you feeling like a piece of meat. I'm sure it's more an emotional reaction than reality but it can ruin an evening all the same.

Going back to Jon's original point, there's a big difference between being rushed off your feet by a stream of great partners that give as well as receive on the dance floor, and what he describes here.

But either way, you have to decide whether you dislike the situation enough to change it.

All these 'techniques' that people describe are all very well, but you'll have to maintain the pretence that you'd like to dance but can't, because of all the drinks you're carrying or whatever, and that will also take effort and erode the enjoyment you get out of the evening.

It sounds to me as if you have to decide whether what you want is an evening of nice dances, with enough breaks to drink, change, watch, or whatever, or whether it's a reputation for always accepting a dance, and being seen as "nice". I'm not entirely sure it's possible to have both, unless somehow you have a constitution that doesn't require breaks, and find all dances nice, regardless of what the partners are like.

One thing, though: if you spread yourself too thinly, even what you give won't be as good as if you don't.

Andreas
10th-December-2005, 07:59 PM
I have to presume this question was to me (as there was no quote) In fact he is coming dancing tonight with me and he can manage enough moves to get through a track. The frustrating thing is he would be good if he was interested, as he picks up the moves very quickly and has good rythmn. But he just isn't that bothered, trust me i've tried for years to get him into it as i would love to have a permanent dance partner that i could do any move with without my inhibitions getting in the way.:sad:

Tell me some :D

Mind you, my girlfriend does dance but the last time I taught her was before we started going out. It is always difficult to motivate your own partner to work, they (I presume we too) generally take it better from a stranger ... :whistle:

Baruch
11th-December-2005, 11:50 PM
The only answer is obvious, to encourage more men to dance! So what incentive do we need to get more men into MJ? Come on men give us some ideas PLEASE!!!
Free beer?

Actually, I haven't the foggiest. I only started dancing because my better half wanted to dance together at our wedding reception (she'd been doing Ceroc for years, so I joined a local MJ class and got addicted). If it hadn't been for her, nothing would have persuaded me to start dance lessons. It's just got such an unmacho, almost effeminate image among muggles.

If anyone finds the answer to this one, let me know so I can persuade a few of my mates to come dancing. I've tried and failed many times.

Lynn
12th-December-2005, 12:22 AM
It sounds to me as if you have to decide whether what you want is an evening of nice dances, with enough breaks to drink, change, watch, or whatever, or whether it's a reputation for always accepting a dance, and being seen as "nice". I'm not entirely sure it's possible to have both, unless somehow you have a constitution that doesn't require breaks, and find all dances nice, regardless of what the partners are like. We keep coming back to this don't we? We expect people to take the second course of action 'always accepting a dance' - and if they don't we might brand them as a 'hotshot'... (I'm not saying there aren't real hotshots who have bad attitudes, but there probably aren't as many as some people think.) And if people, esp guys, do try to be nice and accept every dance, they then have to start trying to find ways of getting a break, pacing themselves, or run the risk of coming home from a dance feeling a bit fed up. (Though I think the problem really being highlighted in this thread isn't simply being innundated with dance requests, but those requests being from women who just want to dance with an available and willing partner, rather than who engage fully in a 'dance conversation'.)

Gadget
12th-December-2005, 02:15 AM
It sounds to me as if you have to decide whether what you want is an evening of nice dances, with enough breaks to drink, change, watch, or whatever, or whether it's a reputation for always accepting a dance, and being seen as "nice". I'm not entirely sure it's possible to have both, unless somehow you have a constitution that doesn't require breaks, and find all dances nice, regardless of what the partners are like.
So what you do is try to up the chances of the latter conditions being met:

Constitution that dosn't require breaks: not healthy. You need to have some fluid to replace what you are loosing on the dance floor. Most partners will accept "Let me just take a drink" before demanding your preesence on the dance floor. If you need/want to take a break - as DavidB suggests; step outside - or at least out of sight of the dance floor.

Find all dances nice: Possable, but I understand that not everyone can, so why not see what can be done to improve each dance?
Be slightly bias about your selection of partners so that you try not to have too many of the 'same sort' consecutivly?
If they are just "going through the motions", use them as practice dummies; do stuff you would normally be trying to work out in a class or off to the side; use them to see how well you can listen to the music; try new things or see if you can remember old things;... normally as soon as something "unusual" happens I find my partners 'wake up' a bit. :devil:
Or if you find someone that's really relxing and plesant to dance with, ask them for another? Treat this as your 'break' - even if you explain to your partner that you just want to relax and take it easy, I'm 95% sure they will still appreciate the dance (or perhaps appreciate it more).

I think that both sides do not need to be exclusive, and that it could be woresened by how a lady parts from the lead: Rushing off to find the next victim or acknowledging your next partner while still 'attahed' to you or "pimping" you to others at their table can all give the poor lead a feeling of being an object of possession or slave rather than an individual.


One thing, though: if you spread yourself too thinly, even what you give won't be as good as if you don't.I'm not sure I understand this comment: Are you suggesting that you should limit the number of dances so that you can put more into each? So it would follow that if you have lots of dances, none of them will be as good as the ones from the limited 'method'?

Yes; if you are exhausted, physically can't dance as well later on in an evening (bad knes, hips, back...), dehydrated, etc... then that will affect the quality of your dancing. But is this the same thing as "spreading yourself too thinly"?

Personally, I have found that with the right music and the right partner, I suddenly have some extra reserves I didn't know I had. This can sustain me for a few tracks with more 'energy' and 'quick thinking' than I think I would have if I had missed that dance. {Unfortunatly I can never predict what this combination of partner/music will be, or when it will be :rolleyes:}

David Bailey
12th-December-2005, 09:56 AM
Re: getting more men dancing...

I only started dancing because my better half wanted to dance together at our wedding reception (she'd been doing Ceroc for years, so I joined a local MJ class and got addicted). If it hadn't been for her, nothing would have persuaded me to start dance lessons. It's just got such an unmacho, almost effeminate image among muggles.
I do agree, especially for men who grew up in the 70's and 80's.

But I always found this puzzling, even when growing up... In my youth, I used to look at the dance floor in a disco and think "Hold on, there's dozens of women there, all the men are standing around the floor with beer glasses, am I missing the purpose of a nightclub here or something? Isn't there supposed to be some kind of contact at some point?"

To me, it was: "Here are the women; they're dancing. Surely a man who can dance would be more attractive than a man who can barely stand up due to vast amounts of alcohol?" (well, it seemed logical to me at the time).

I've no idea what club culture is like now, but I think it's still the case that most men in the UK will happily say "Sorry, I've got two left feet", as if this is something to be proud of. Whereas I can't see them so readily saying "Sorry, I've got a small pen%s" :devil:

So the problem is that, in general, most men don't rate dancing well as a desirable characteristic. Which is surprising, because most women do rate it as a desirable characteristic. In other words, men are stupid.

Popular culture takes a while to change - but if people like Darren Gough can evangelise about partner dancing, perhaps we'll get back to emphasizing dancing in men. I wonder if the average ratios at beginner classes are changing now?

Cruella
12th-December-2005, 10:00 AM
Tell me some :D

Mind you, my girlfriend does dance but the last time I taught her was before we started going out. It is always difficult to motivate your own partner to work, they (I presume we too) generally take it better from a stranger ... :whistle:
This is one of our disagreements, he said that he wants me to teach him whereas i've suggested he goes to our local venue, which is just 5minutes away. He's insistent that he wants to learn from me but i am reluctant as i believe it's a bit like teaching your other half to drive:sick: I think it will result in arguments because i won't have the patience with him that i do with others. I've explained he needs to dance with a variety of ladies to help him acheive a good lead. I have said that we'll start with an hour of me teaching him every wednesday, hopefully that will get him interested enough to want to go occasionally to the local venue. All presuming that we don't end up killing each other first:innocent:

David Bailey
12th-December-2005, 10:03 AM
This is one of our disagreements, he said that he wants me to teach him whereas i've suggested he goes to our local venue, which is just 5minutes away. He's insistent that he wants to learn from me but i am reluctant as i believe it's a bit like teaching your other half to drive:sick:
Totally agree it'll be a nightmare, and that your way is the best way.

On the other hand, if it's you or no-one, I'm sure you're better than no teacher. Or maybe you could book a teacher for private classes?

Cruella
12th-December-2005, 10:05 AM
Popular culture takes a while to change - but if people like Darren Gough can evangelise about partner dancing, perhaps we'll get back to emphasizing dancing in men. I wonder if the average ratios at beginner classes are changing now?
Did you see the clips during fridays programme on BBC 2, they asked some male members of the public about whether it's changed their view about men dancing and it was all positive . One guy even said he'd started doing Ceroc :clap:

Cruella
12th-December-2005, 10:08 AM
, if it's you or no-one, I'm sure you're better than no teacher.
Oh, you flatterer. :rolleyes:

senorita
12th-December-2005, 10:33 AM
:devil:
I so wish i was a man sometimes!
REALLY!!! :really: :confused:
Gosh your red lipstick would look scary then! :hug: :flower:

Cruella
12th-December-2005, 10:37 AM
:devil:
I so wish i was a man sometimes!
REALLY!!! :really: :confused:
Gosh your red lipstick would look scary then! :hug: :flower:
No scarier than a man in a PVC miniskirt, (cough cough):whistle:

senorita
12th-December-2005, 10:42 AM
[QUOTE=senorita]
No scarier than a man in a PVC miniskirt, (cough cough):whistle:

who's that then?? oh I know who your talking about..that strange one....gosh he did look funny,.. I thought he had something on his skirt between his legs in the picture ...:rofl: :rofl:

Anyway,.. now you put me off my meeting this morning....cant concentrate on my notes now :rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
12th-December-2005, 10:51 AM
All these 'techniques' that people describe are all very well, but you'll have to maintain the pretence that you'd like to dance but can't, because of all the drinks you're carrying or whatever, and that will also take effort and erode the enjoyment you get out of the evening.I know I'm terminally stupid, but really, what's wrong with saying "Thanks very much but I'm enjoying a break at the moment"? It only sounds a bit odd if the very next second you're seen flinging your bits around the floor with a different dame...

LMC
12th-December-2005, 10:57 AM
:yeah:

Even my precious little ego can cope with a guy telling me he needs a rest - as long as I don't see him shaking his stuff with another woman immediately afterwards, then even if he's dancing with someone else (not me) at the next track I don't jump to the conclusion that he a) is evil and/or b) hates me. Which means that any woman should be able to cope with a guy needing a rest...

KatieR
12th-December-2005, 10:59 AM
Im not sure if I am posting this under the right thread but it seemed to have a similar inflection.

With guys being worried about being dance 'meat' so to speak. I think DavidB definately has some good techniques for avoiding dances.

Im not a confident 'asker', so I wouldnt be one of the ladies stalking you around the floor, however, there is one thing I have noticed quite a bit lately and I wondered why and if anyone can offer reasoning.

More often than not I find myself in a venue with quite a lot of very good dancers. They know who I am yet seem to really not want to dance with me. Case in point, Saturday night it was one of the last tracks to be played, and I was standing with someone who is very popular on the dance circuit (because she is an awesome dancer - even if she doesn't think so :wink: ) and she had THREE top of the range lads all ask her to dance. As she had already accepted a dance from someone else she had to say no.

One might think that seeing I was standing right next to this person, that one of these men might have asked me to dance, but they all just walked off until I said 'will I do?' or words to that effect and was accepted for a dance. I have never felt more like chopped liver in my life.

At the urging of someone I did also eventually go and ask one of said men to dance and was almost turned down with an excuse, but thought better of it at the last moment and did in fact dance with me. Cant say this really did much for my dancing confidence.

This is one of the main reasons I am quite apprehensive about asking guys to dance. If I actually felt that they did actually want to dance with me then I might not feel so terrified a lot of the time.

David Bailey
12th-December-2005, 11:15 AM
One might think that seeing I was standing right next to this person, that one of these men might have asked me to dance, but they all just walked off until I said 'will I do?' or words to that effect and was accepted for a dance.
From a man's point-of-view, it's very difficult to ask someone next to someone who's just refused you - no matter what the reason. You're doubly scared that your ego will take yet another knock back, and you also don't want it to look like "Oh, you're obviously second-best, I guess you'll have to do". So I rarely ask a neighbour of a refusee.

I've no idea whether that's the rationale these guys used, but it's certainly one possibility.


At the urging of someone I did also eventually go and ask one of said men to dance and was almost turned down with an excuse, but thought better of it at the last moment and did in fact dance with me. Cant say this really did much for my dancing confidence.
Well, if you will go to Hammersmith... :whistle:

Seriously, the whole "acceptance / refusal" thing seems to me to be so emotionally-ridden for everyone; I think if you don't want to dance, it's best to avoid having to refuse, by simply not being near the dance floor.

MartinHarper
12th-December-2005, 11:22 AM
At the urging of someone I did also eventually go and ask one of said men to dance and was almost turned down with an excuse, but thought better of it at the last moment and did in fact dance with me. Cant say this really did much for my dancing confidence.

What made you feel that he was about to turn you down, and thought better of it at the last moment?

KatieR
12th-December-2005, 11:22 AM
From a man's point-of-view, it's very difficult to ask someone next to someone who's just refused you - no matter what the reason. You're doubly scared that your ego will take yet another knock back, and you also don't want it to look like "Oh, you're obviously second-best, I guess you'll have to do". So I rarely ask a neighbour of a refusee.

I've no idea whether that's the rationale these guys used, but it's certainly one possibility.

I guess thats one way of looking at it, but from a girls perspective it just feels like a huge brush off.



Well, if you will go to Hammersmith... :whistle:

Seriously, the whole "acceptance / refusal" thing seems to me to be so emotionally-ridden for everyone; I think if you don't want to dance, it's best to avoid having to refuse, by simply not being near the dance floor.

Wasnt at Hammersmith!

I have said before I will very rarely refuse a dance unless someone is stepping over the boundary of decency.

JonD
12th-December-2005, 11:28 AM
Firstly, thanks to everyone who has provided useful tips. DavidB's two drink technique is just inspired!

I guess the reality is that the only way to avoid being Dance Meat is to be less approachable. That's a shame because I love dancing and, when I'm enjoying myself, I tend to smile a lot, be animated and want everyone else in the world to feel the same. I'll have to adopt the "walk with purpose" technique, leave the dance floor rather than watch the dancers when I'm resting, avoid eye contact and lie more about having promised dances to other people. That's a bit sad but, on balance, it's better than ending the evening feeling used up.

The problem isn't really about justifying a rest, it's about avoiding spending too much time dancing with followers who give you nothing in the dance. I enjoy dancing with beginners as they are normally keen to learn; I enjoy dancing with women who smile, look at me, like the fact that I tend not to lead "pure moves" and enjoy contributing to the dance no matter what their standard. I also love dancing with really good followers who challenge me, teach me and inspire me. I love learning - it is one of the huge pleasures of dancing and I need time to indulge myself. So, saying I'm resting doesn't work because I might be dancing with someone else within a minute; it's going to have to be "I've promised someone else" routine.

The one thing I won't do is stop smiling and "engaging" with my partner when I'm dancing. I subscribe to the "create a frame in which your partner can be beautiful" school of leading and I can't imagine being able to do that without trying to create a connection.

I have great sympathy with women who want to dance but can't due to a lack of leaders. I was talking to two very good followers on Saturday night and they were bemoaning that very fact - and the fact that we never seem to get an opportunity to dance together!

On the encouraging men to dance issue, we might get an idea if SCD has had an effect if all the taxis/coaches on here monitor the male/female ratio of beginners from January onwards - just a rough estimate. My sense is that there is already a greater percentage of male beginners but that might just be because the ladies are all late night Christmas shopping!

ChrisA
12th-December-2005, 11:30 AM
what's wrong with saying "Thanks very much but I'm enjoying a break at the moment"?
Nothing, in my view, although I think some people are so steeped in the "you always have to say yes" mentality that they can't bring themselves to do it.

It's just that this thread wasn't about just taking a break - it was about a constant stream of people that seemed not to engage in the dance.

And turning them down, but accepting the ones that do engage, rather than using their partner as something on the end of their arm to use for a bit of aerobic exercise, is to run the gauntlet of the anti-hotshot brigade.

David Bailey
12th-December-2005, 11:50 AM
I guess thats one way of looking at it, but from a girls perspective it just feels like a huge brush off.
There's always two perspectives...

killingtime
12th-December-2005, 12:05 PM
From a man's point-of-view, it's very difficult to ask someone next to someone who's just refused you - no matter what the reason. You're doubly scared that your ego will take yet another knock back, and you also don't want it to look like "Oh, you're obviously second-best, I guess you'll have to do". So I rarely ask a neighbour of a refusee.

Yep. I've asked the person next to someone a couple of times before and always worried that's the feeling they've got. I wouldn't mind being referred, that is, for one woman to say that she is resting or that she's already been asked but said "Katie would probably like to though" but actually maybe that would feel weird. It's happened to me once but then the woman in question referred me to her husband :o.

More on topic though I do find that there as some nights (generally the ones with a large ratio imbalance) that I don't get to ask many women. Lynn said earlier that she likes to be asked (and most people do) and I worry that sometimes women think I don't enjoy dancing with them because I rarely ask them rather than, the actual reason, the fact I don't get to pick who I dance with. It reminds me a bit of the issues talked about in the How to Get a Look In (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6535) (temp url (http://72.232.2.194/~fpauly/forum/showthread.php?t=6535)) thread. I haven't found a way to stop being asked to give me a chance to pick my own partners occasionally.

MartinHarper
12th-December-2005, 12:37 PM
Have you considered asking these women to look at you when they're dancing with you?

El Salsero Gringo
12th-December-2005, 12:41 PM
From a man's point-of-view, it's very difficult to ask someone next to someone who's just refused you - no matter what the reason. You're doubly scared that your ego will take yet another knock back, and you also don't want it to look like "Oh, you're obviously second-best, I guess you'll have to do". So I rarely ask a neighbour of a refusee.Agreed. I've been slammed by women in the past for asking them as a "second choice". ("Aren't I good enough that you have to ask her first...?" Luckily I don't have an ego, so it didn't trouble me to answer them "No - you're not - now do you want to dance or not?")

KatieR
12th-December-2005, 12:44 PM
Agreed. I've been slammed by women in the past for asking them as a "second choice". ("Aren't I good enough that you have to ask her first...?")

The way I see it, Im under no illusions that there are girls that are better than me that the guys would prefer to dance with and that will only ask me if they get turned down if they ask me at all.

Im not concerned as to what order Im asked in, just as long as I do get asked from time to time.

Im pretty sure I engage the person that Im dancing with, there are guys out there that dance with their eyes closed. how are us girls supposed to deal with that?

LMC
12th-December-2005, 12:45 PM
B****y hell, they should get over themselves! I'm just happy to be asked rather than having to do the asking.

Talking about ratios - Stevenage has had a huge influx of beginners recently and the numbers of men to women seem to be relatively even - mainly couples. Perhaps I'll do a quick straw poll next time I'm taxi-ing to ask what got them to come along.

Trish
12th-December-2005, 03:46 PM
Firstly, thanks to everyone who has provided useful tips. DavidB's two drink technique is just inspired!

I guess the reality is that the only way to avoid being Dance Meat is to be less approachable. That's a shame because I love dancing and, when I'm enjoying myself, I tend to smile a lot, be animated and want everyone else in the world to feel the same. I'll have to adopt the "walk with purpose" technique, leave the dance floor rather than watch the dancers when I'm resting, avoid eye contact and lie more about having promised dances to other people. That's a bit sad but, on balance, it's better than ending the evening feeling used up.

The problem isn't really about justifying a rest, it's about avoiding spending too much time dancing with followers who give you nothing in the dance. I enjoy dancing with beginners as they are normally keen to learn; I enjoy dancing with women who smile, look at me, like the fact that I tend not to lead "pure moves" and enjoy contributing to the dance no matter what their standard. I also love dancing with really good followers who challenge me, teach me and inspire me. I love learning - it is one of the huge pleasures of dancing and I need time to indulge myself. So, saying I'm resting doesn't work because I might be dancing with someone else within a minute; it's going to have to be "I've promised someone else" routine.

The one thing I won't do is stop smiling and "engaging" with my partner when I'm dancing. I subscribe to the "create a frame in which your partner can be beautiful" school of leading and I can't imagine being able to do that without trying to create a connection.

I have great sympathy with women who want to dance but can't due to a lack of leaders. I was talking to two very good followers on Saturday night and they were bemoaning that very fact - and the fact that we never seem to get an opportunity to dance together!

On the encouraging men to dance issue, we might get an idea if SCD has had an effect if all the taxis/coaches on here monitor the male/female ratio of beginners from January onwards - just a rough estimate. My sense is that there is already a greater percentage of male beginners but that might just be because the ladies are all late night Christmas shopping!

I agree with Martin Harper - ask these women to look at you/interact with you, and be persistant (if humourous) in asking them. And maybe even teach them things. It might be that they're very shy or feel uncomfortable with eye contact etc, or unsure of their dancing. If you ask them to look at you and give them tips to improve their dancing this will have one of two effects. Either their eye contact etc will improve in which case you'll enjoy dancing with them more, or they'll hate the idea as they don't want to learn and stop asking you to dance. Either way it's a win/win situation for you. The only other thing you can do is be very blunt, and tell the women that you're having a night of trying to pick your own partners. If you explain to them that you keep missing out on various girls that you'd like to dance with because you're in demand, and that you'll be back to normal service the next time you see them I'm sure they'd sympathise, as they probably have noticed that this is true, but would still like to dance with you.

I still think you doing the asking might be one of the best thing to do though.

Good luck with it.

Trish

Edit: oh, yes, and learn doubles - that way you can dance with two ladies at once and get through to the ones you do want to dance with twice as quick!

David Bailey
12th-December-2005, 04:11 PM
oh, yes, and learn doubles - that way you can dance with two ladies at once and get through to the ones you do want to dance with twice as quick!
You know, I think that's the way forward? I don't see ratios changing much, but one way of coping with this at the teacher level is to teach and support more double-follower-oriented classes.

Of course, this is useful only on non-crowded dance floors, seen any of them recently? :whistle:

LMC
12th-December-2005, 04:38 PM
Yeah, but there's some men that you want all to yourself :drool:

No, I'm not saying who...

JonD
12th-December-2005, 04:44 PM
ask these women to look at you/interact with you, and be persistant (if humourous) in asking them.
I have tried - in some cases it works as you predict but in most cases you just get a blank look and that is all. I'm not a teacher and I don't particularly like the idea of trying to teach/coach anyone other than beginners in a freestyle situation when on duty as a coach - although I don't mind helping anyone if they ask and I'm competent to help. I'd only make an unsolicited offer of help to anyone other than a beginner if I knew them well or we were at a workshop/practice session.

The vast majority of people who offer no engagement in the dance appear to have no desire to improve their dancing beyond the point of basic competence. They only ask me to dance because they know they won't get their arms ripped from their shoulders, I don't smell and will make them feel reasonably good about their dancing. I should think that they'd brand me a "dance snob" if I started trying to lecture them.

I think that telling people I'm "dancing for me tonight" might work - I'll give it a go on Thursday and report back (hopefully not from hospital)!

I don't like "doubles" I'm afraid - I tend to get tied in knots. And anyway, I'm not as young as I was!

El Salsero Gringo
12th-December-2005, 07:15 PM
I think that telling people I'm "dancing for me tonight" might workI think the suggestion that dancing with a woman is a chore and therefore not something you'd do 'on your own time' is more likely to give offence than anything else I can think of.
- I'll give it a go on Thursday and report back (hopefully not from hospital)!Brave man. Have the ambulance standing by. I think you might need it.

JonD
12th-December-2005, 07:43 PM
I think the suggestion that dancing with a woman is a chore and therefore not something you'd do 'on your own time' is more likely to give offence than anything else I can think of.
You're right - not the most sensitive choice of words! I'll dream up something rather more tactful. Thanks for pointing it out - life could have got interesting.

bigdjiver
12th-December-2005, 09:04 PM
If asking a lady in a group I try to approach from an angle so that it is the nearest I ask first. If refused I can then ask the second, and offer the explanation "It would have been rude to walk past her to ask you.".

jivecat
12th-December-2005, 09:39 PM
It's just that this thread wasn't about just taking a break - it was about a constant stream of people that seemed not to engage in the dance.

And turning them down, but accepting the ones that do engage, rather than using their partner as something on the end of their arm to use for a bit of aerobic exercise, is to run the gauntlet of the anti-hotshot brigade.

I find that when I have a plentiful supply of competent leaders I enjoy myself so much that I don't notice tiredness, sore feet or thirst. But on nights where I spend a lot of time dancing with clumsy, rough leaders who don't dance to the music, or even the rhythm, I feel exhausted by 10 o'clock.

I will almost always dance with anyone who asks - but I have to confess that I will now often choose to sit out my favourite tracks if I can't find anyone who will IMO do them justice (though if asked I will always dance them). So I have some sympathy with Jon D. But then, as a follower I need to spend at least 20% sitting out anyway.

I can only remember a few nights when for some reason I could only get a few seconds sitting down before I got asked up again. It was such a pleasant novelty that I did my best to comply - a few times I postponed the dance but made sure I found the person later and danced with them.

The refusals I have found the rudest are when the guy has said "Later", or "I'll come back in a minute" when clearly he has no intention of doing so. Obnoxious. I'd rather someone said in a straightforward way that they need ed a rest - as long as they don't then accept or make another offer. I think staying off the dance floor during rest periods is the best solution! Having several dances in succession with a chosen follower would also keep you out of circulation and unavailable to casual askers. I think dancing in a corner away from the seating area might make a difference as ladies would be less able to get at you there and would have to cross the floor in order to ask you!

Gadget
12th-December-2005, 10:29 PM
From a man's point-of-view, it's very difficult to ask someone next to someone who's just refused you - no matter what the reason. You're doubly scared that your ego will take yet another knock back, and you also don't want it to look like "Oh, you're obviously second-best, I guess you'll have to do". So I rarely ask a neighbour of a refusee.I've been ribbed a few times because I ask the 'next' person once the "first choice" has declined (*) but I would prefer to do this rather than ignore them and make way for somone else: Just looking into their face will tell you that they are eager to dance.

In general I "ask" from the dance floor with eye contact, a smile, and an offer of hand: I think that getting passed the tables to the people, then back to the dance floor again is time I could have dancing with them. Unfortunatly this sometimes goes astray and I unwittingly end up dancing with someone I didn't intend to and that person feels snubbed - in which case I always make a point of seeing if I can find them for the next dance.

(* just changed/not changed shoes, promised a dance to someone else, or prefer to postpone for a better track and have chance to recover from the last one are about the only reasons I have been given for refusal: the last one only by a couple of partners that know me well.)

bigdjiver
13th-December-2005, 01:09 AM
I've been ribbed a few times because I ask the 'next' person once the "first choice" has declined (*) but I would prefer to do this rather than ignore them and make way for somone else: Just looking into their face will tell you that they are eager to dance... I have tried "Would you have mercy on a miserable reject?" on the second lady, but only twice. It worked, but I am not convinced. I am still looking for a more obviously jokey version of that idea.

Trish
13th-December-2005, 10:26 AM
...
The vast majority of people who offer no engagement in the dance appear to have no desire to improve their dancing beyond the point of basic competence. They only ask me to dance because they know they won't get their arms ripped from their shoulders, I don't smell and will make them feel reasonably good about their dancing. I should think that they'd brand me a "dance snob" if I started trying to lecture them.

I think that telling people I'm "dancing for me tonight" might work - I'll give it a go on Thursday and report back (hopefully not from hospital)!

I don't like "doubles" I'm afraid - I tend to get tied in knots. And anyway, I'm not as young as I was!

I understand your reluctance to be branded a dance snob, but I think given your obviously friendly attitude this is unlikely - surely instructing people on how to dance better (in a kind way), is a nicer thing to do than refusing to dance with them in an offhand manner, or avoiding eye contact if you don't like doing that. If they don't like suggestions of how to improve being given to them, I still don't see how they can be really offended, and if they are really offended, then they must be a slightly over sensitive type anyway! All it takes is a bit of smiling and encouragement along with "it would be nice if you looked at me once in a while, I can't tell if you're enjoying the dance"

Hope the second tactic works for you (although I'd be careful not to do it too often, or you'll lose your friendly reputation). And that you find a tactful way of saying it!

DavidJames - I'm sure you're right about doubles taking up more space, but I tend to lead them in the corner of the room, so's not to bump into too many people, and try to keep quite a tight reign on the girls I'm dancing with (I've only got little arms anyway, so they can't go too far without it hurting!)

Zuhal
13th-December-2005, 10:36 AM
Great Thread Jon D

I sympathise and have similar experience at my local.

Go somewhere new where you are not known and have an evening anonymous dancing. I did the Greenwich party and had a very relaxed evening because although it was full of excellent dancers, the numbers were balanced and there was plenty of better known and more desirable males than me.

At my local there is a lady who has had a posture and attitude as black as thunder for nearly a year. Despite her demeanour I asked her for a couple of dances. She refused eye contact, tutted all the way through and held herself away. I gave up and watched as she sat out for a few months. She has now got enough nerve to ask men to dance with her but the experience is awful. What she really needs is a friend to explain a few things. I am not that brave. I might even make my first ever refusal

Zuhal

Trish
13th-December-2005, 03:28 PM
Great Thread Jon D

I sympathise and have similar experience at my local.

Go somewhere new where you are not known and have an evening anonymous dancing. I did the Greenwich party and had a very relaxed evening because although it was full of excellent dancers, the numbers were balanced and there was plenty of better known and more desirable males than me.

At my local there is a lady who has had a posture and attitude as black as thunder for nearly a year. Despite her demeanour I asked her for a couple of dances. She refused eye contact, tutted all the way through and held herself away. I gave up and watched as she sat out for a few months. She has now got enough nerve to ask men to dance with her but the experience is awful. What she really needs is a friend to explain a few things. I am not that brave. I might even make my first ever refusal

Zuhal

Is she like that with everyone then? I can't imagine she gets asked much (actually I think it's nice of you to ask her at all)!

Maybe if you do refuse her you should just say to her that you like the ladies you dance with to enjoy the experience and that as she so clearly isn't enjoying it, you wouldn't like to inflict yourself on her. She might not like it much, but it might make her think! There used to be a guy I saw occasionally with a similar demeanor, and I asked him once why he asked me to dance, as he always looked like he hated every minute of it. He then actually smiled, and said that it wasn't that he hated it at all, but that he tended to be nervous, and that he was concentrating on trying to get it right. I did say to him that I'm glad he did enjoy the dance, but it might be nice if he smiled once in a while to show it. He is still slightly frowny, but getting better slowly and he'll tend to smile if you smile at him.

David Bailey
13th-December-2005, 03:39 PM
There used to be a guy I saw occasionally with a similar demeanor, and I asked him once why he asked me to dance, as he always looked like he hated every minute of it.
That sounds like me for my first 2-3 years dancing MJ ... :blush:

(OK, yes, probably now too, alright, I'll change the avatar, happy? )

Yes, it occurred to me that the lady in question might just be nervous, few of us are aware of the expressions we pull whilst concentrating. And it takes a long time to feel natural enough whilst dancing to relax (smile, chat, look around, make a cuppa, that sort of thing).

killingtime
13th-December-2005, 04:30 PM
make a cuppa, that sort of thing.

When do you get to do a Making Hot Drinks While Dancing workshop. Is it advanced?

David Bailey
13th-December-2005, 04:37 PM
When do you get to do a Making Hot Drinks While Dancing workshop. Is it advanced?
I'd imagine it's in the Ten's Curricula, but I wouldn't know.

spindr
13th-December-2005, 04:48 PM
I'd imagine it's in the Ten's Curricula, but I wouldn't know.
Are you sure -- you've got the stirring down to a tea :)

robd
14th-December-2005, 06:38 PM
If comparing oneself to the JIVEMASTER Champion, Mr Dancing Teeth, I am a reconstituted chicken nugget.:blush:

Which is, I imagine a very POPULAR meal if not particularly healthy one :nice:

robd
14th-December-2005, 06:58 PM
There used to be a guy I saw occasionally with a similar demeanor, and I asked him once why he asked me to dance, as he always looked like he hated every minute of it. He then actually smiled, and said that it wasn't that he hated it at all, but that he tended to be nervous, and that he was concentrating on trying to get it right. I did say to him that I'm glad he did enjoy the dance, but it might be nice if he smiled once in a while to show it. He is still slightly frowny, but getting better slowly and he'll tend to smile if you smile at him.

Not me by any chance Trish :o

Trinity
14th-December-2005, 09:14 PM
I think it works both ways... sometimes I have to hide in the bar just to rest :eek:

JamesGeary
15th-December-2005, 02:27 PM
Partners who don't look at you, offer you no connection and only seem interested in their own dance gratification leave you feeling like a piece of meat.

Plenty of people want a connection and aren't interested in the dancing. Some go because its social, some go because they enjoy the dancing (the actual dancing rather than the reactions from the person they are dancing with). Some like moving to the music and thats why they go.

killingtime
15th-December-2005, 02:29 PM
Some like moving to the music and thats why they go.

Why go to a partner dance to effectively dance by yourself though?

Gadget
15th-December-2005, 03:01 PM
Why go to a partner dance to effectively dance by yourself though?
It took me many years to stop thinking of my partner as an extension to my own dancing and use her as such :blush:

ducasi
15th-December-2005, 03:06 PM
It took me many years to stop thinking of my partner as an extension to my own dancing and use her as such :blush:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean Gadget, but it sounds interesting. Can you elaborate? :flower:

robd
15th-December-2005, 03:45 PM
I am not in the same situation as Jon describes - I am not a 'must-grab' dancer but I know there are ladies who do like to dance with me and, like Jon, being a familiar face as well as a non-yanker tends to make one reasonably in demand almost by default. Generally I welcome any request to dance but there are times when I either want to rest, have a drink or get to my preferred partner ("these are the last 2 records :nice: ") and on these occasions I have to say I resort to a determined walk off the dance floor staring straight ahead and avoiding eye contact. I also keep myself well away from the fringes of the floor (which isn't too easy when the venue is as small as Cambridge). This tends to deter requests well but is, I agree, no too social an approach.

For partners with whom I feel no connection I generally will not ask them again but, if asked by them, will dance with them. However using the techniques listed above it is reasonably easy to avoid being asked by them should I wish that to be the case. However, I have been told frequently that I look very serious when dancing even though I don't feel it myself and I wonder what feeling that gives to my partners - they may well feel that there is little connection there without me even realising it. When I first started dancing (well, sort of 10 lessons in) there were two reasonably good intermediate girls whom I asked to dance. Both seemed completely detached and as a consequence I decided never to ask the for a dance again even though they are regular attendees. 6 months or so later one of them asked me for a dance, I accepted and we had a good dance. The other one has yet to ask me (but then I have never seen her ask anyone) and maybe never will. However I do now wonder if my perception of them (detached from the dance) matched their perception of me without me realising it?

Robert

Cruella
15th-December-2005, 05:47 PM
For partners with whom I feel no connection I generally will not ask them again but, if asked by them, will dance with them. However using the techniques listed above it is reasonably easy to avoid being asked by them should I wish that to be the case. Robert
You do realise that now we know this, we'll be waiting to see if you ask us or avoid our eye contact Rob!:sick: (that's the royal we)

robd
15th-December-2005, 05:59 PM
You do realise that now we know this, we'll be waiting to see if you ask us or avoid our eye contact Rob!:sick: (that's the royal we)

Depends if you are still drinking Diet Coke Cruella! (I am addicted I am afraid)

More seriously, I still don't feel confident asking you and a few others because I feel that I can't offer anything near to the standard that I see other leaders can reach with you. Therefore dancing with less experienced dancers sometimes means I can be confident of giving a more proportionately satisfying dance as it were even if the moves and the way I lead them is identical. Not sure that makes much sense but football is calling and it's time to go :flower:

Trish
15th-December-2005, 06:08 PM
Not me by any chance Trish :o

No, not you mate - you always smile! :D

Gadget
15th-December-2005, 09:44 PM
It took me many years to stop thinking of my partner as an extension to my own dancing and use her as suchI'm not sure I understand what you mean Gadget, but it sounds interesting. Can you elaborate? :flower:
I don't know about interesting, but I will elaborate:

When dancing, I used to think "Brilliant: I can dance to the music and a partner!" And off I would go - flailing and taking my partner into a malstrom of limbs and spins. {OK, so that's not changed that much :rolleyes:}

I was dancing to the music, keeping the beat, throwing in some moves and showing my partner off. (and perhaps showing off myself a little bit :whistle: ) But the styling was mine, the musicality was mine, and I was only letting my partner in on the dance when I wanted to. Other than that, she was just an extension to me and my moves.

Now, I think I am a bit more aware of my partner; how they are moving to the music, and how they respond to what I am doing. I look for physical feedback and use it to influence what to do next. If I feel them looking for space within a track I try to give it to them. If/when I give them space, I watch what they are doing and 'play' up to it/with it... or at least I try to.

My dancing has changed from Killingtime's Why go to a partner dance to effectively dance by yourself though? where I was dancing by myself - just with my partner as a fancey, animated prop that responded to whatever buttons I pressed. To what it is now; I actually try to engage with my partner, react and dance with them.
Took me a while to see it, and a while to address it, but I think it's worth it.

ducasi
16th-December-2005, 01:04 AM
I don't know about interesting, but I will elaborate ... Thanks for the elaboration. :nice:

I'd certainly like to think I that I dance "with" my partner, but I reckon I've got a lot to learn to really accomplish that, in all that it means. Perhaps it was the same for you – there was stuff you needed to get your own head round before you even realised there was a problem, and then some more before you could solve it.

Thanks again... definitely interesting, and something for me to think about.

JonD
16th-December-2005, 11:30 AM
I'll give it a go on Thursday and report back (hopefully not from hospital)!
Well, I'm not in hospital and have no visual scars - but it was an interesting exercise with rather mixed success. Sadly, I didn't have an opportunity to try the "2 drinks technique" but the concept did meet with universal approval from all those I told about it.

Walking off the floor with purpose, avoiding eye contact had about a 75% success rate. However, I needed a fast follow up technique to cope when someone grabbed my arm from behind and swung me towards the dance floor.

I moderated the "I'm dancing for me" message and used "I'm having a night of dancing with all those people I never usually get to dance with - like Rosalie, Keeley, Sarah (pick the names of a number of the best lady dancers in the venue - and it's true that I don't get to dance with them from one month to the next). The explanation works fine if you've got time to deliver it and I got no sense of people resenting it. However, this is far too wordy to deal with the "grab and drag" method of being asked. I fell back on the "Sorry, I'm promised" line.


I still think you doing the asking might be one of the best thing to do though.
You're dead right! I only asked 5 women to dance all evening - as I approached the ladies I really wanted to dance with they generally asked me before I could speak. So, other than by beginners, I guess I'm thought of as an "askee" rather than an "asker". I'm going to make a real effort to to change that perception - it'll take a little time but will give me much more control over who I dance with.

It was an interesting experiment and a really good night. I suppose I had about 4 "dance meat" dances all night and the rest were with people, of all standards, that I wanted to dance with and had real fun with. I made a point of doing 2 or 3 dances in a row with most people and my only regret is that I only managed to grab the lovely Rosalie for the last track (Julie has a horrid cough/cold so was tucked up in bed with a port & brandy).

By the way, thanks for all the feedback - without the advice on here I'd probably have blundered in and upset people unnecessarily.

KatieR
16th-December-2005, 12:22 PM
I needed a fast follow up technique to cope when someone grabbed my arm from behind and swung me towards the dance floor.
.

This is one of my most hated aspects of the whole asking someone to dance. Personally I cant think of anything ruder than just grabbing someones arm and dragging them to the floor.

I have had this happen to me on the odd occassion, and I often turn around and comment that I dont take kindly to being dragged onto the floor and refuse the dance.

Call me rude or whatever, but a little bit of respect goes a long way IMO.

Trish
16th-December-2005, 02:22 PM
This is one of my most hated aspects of the whole asking someone to dance. Personally I cant think of anything ruder than just grabbing someones arm and dragging them to the floor.

I have had this happen to me on the odd occassion, and I often turn around and comment that I dont take kindly to being dragged onto the floor and refuse the dance.

Call me rude or whatever, but a little bit of respect goes a long way IMO.

Yes, I know what you mean there - a dirty look goes a lot way in that situation too!