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View Full Version : Where are they now? - JAMES CRONIN



Gus
29th-November-2005, 08:40 PM
For those who weren’t around, James Cronin is the guy who developed Ceroc in the UK … The guy who the vast majority of us owe a great debt of gratitude. However, to many peoples surprise, about a year or so ago he sold the whole business and, as far as the dance world was concerned, vanished.

I was lucky enough to see him on Sunday talking to an understandably enthusiastic congregation about the work he and his team were doing (he was back for the weekend on a flying visit). This evangelic church develops Church 'plants' … a new concept to me, but its appears to be a process of sending a team out from the UK to develop a new Church in another country … and they see, to very good at doing this. James was a key member of a team who set up such a Church in Auckland, NZ. He and his wife are now doing a similar project in the Bible belt in the good old US of A. It was nice to hear James speaking with such passion about what they are achieving. I must admit that though they have many obstacles out there, compared to the fight he had to get Ceroc™ established it must be child’s play.

Chicklet
29th-November-2005, 09:08 PM
This evangelic church develops Church 'plants' … a new concept to me, but its appears to be a process of sending a team out from the UK to develop a new Church in another country …
Hmmmm, IIRC, this process was quite big in Africa in the late 1800s.

Gus
29th-November-2005, 09:29 PM
Hmmmm, IIRC, this process was quite big in Africa in the late 1800s.So I see that its much the same, bringing the word of the Holy Spirit to the ungodly and ignorant ... i.e. the Yanks.:wink:

ChrisA
29th-November-2005, 09:35 PM
… and they seem to be very good at doing this. James was a key member of a team who set up such a Church in Auckland, NZ. He and his wife are now doing a similar project
Oh dear, what a waste. :tears:

Gus
29th-November-2005, 09:38 PM
Oh dear, what a waste. :tears:Why? They brought dancing to many thousands which some may see as being a good thing. BUT, I would say that fades into insignificance compared to what a 'good' Church can achieve. Its not just about the direct God stuff, the help these ventures can offer to the community is immense.

ChrisA
29th-November-2005, 09:46 PM
Its not just about the direct God stuff, the help these ventures can offer to the community is immense.
When they give all that help without reference to the "direct God stuff", I'll apologise for accusing you of talking a load of complete b0110cks.

Don't get me started on this one. Trust me, it wouldn't be pretty.

Gus
29th-November-2005, 09:59 PM
When they give all that help without reference to the "direct God stuff", I'll apologise for accusing you of talking a load of complete b0110cks.

Don't get me started on this one. Trust me, it wouldn't be pretty.Share. Interesting to hear one of the oldest and most established religions, that great philosophers, lords and judges have attested to the major elements of fact ... be compares to b0110cks. Forgive my ODA tendancy but I'm interersted in your views. If people like James who have made efforts to bring 'good' to people believe, I think there may be something worth considering.

Almost an Angel
29th-November-2005, 10:01 PM
Oh dear, what a waste. :tears:

Sorry to echo Gus but Why is it a waste??

Just because you don't agree with other people's personal beliefs is no reason to belittle their efforts. James is obviously doing something he feels passionately about it's the same as all of us. I would hope we could all be able or capable of doing something we feel is right be it dancing, competing relating it directly to this forum or even being out there following a cause that we feel needs our support in the wider world.

Have to disagree with you on this one Chris.

Angel xx

ChrisA
29th-November-2005, 10:05 PM
Share. Interesting to hear one of the oldest and most established religions, that great philosophers, lords and judges have attested to the major elements of fact ... be compares to b0110cks. Forgive my ODA tendancy but I'm interersted in your views. If people like James who have made efforts to bring 'good' to people believe, I think there may be something worth considering.

With regret, I have to say, not here.

Ply me with beer sometime and I'll tell you why I think the whole deal is crap. Not the people, lots of them are lovely, although plenty of them aren't. Just the whole deal.

Yuk.

Gus
29th-November-2005, 10:11 PM
Ply me with beer sometime and I'll tell you why I think the whole deal is crap. AOK. First you read Lee Strobel's attempt (and failure) to discredit JC, The Case for Christ,http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid=1133298499/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/202-8093221-7929423, then I look forward to our chat. I was a mite cynical at first but I failed to find a flaw, and far better minds than mine have tried and failed.

lindyloo
29th-November-2005, 10:19 PM
about a year or so ago he sold the whole business .


Over two years ago

ChrisA
29th-November-2005, 10:22 PM
AOK. First you read Lee Strobel's attempt (and failure) to discredit JC, The Case for Christ,http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid=1133298499/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/202-8093221-7929423, then I look forward to our chat. I was a mite cynical at first but I failed to find a flaw, and far better minds than mine have tried and failed.
Is there anything genuinely new in it that isn't in "Who moved the stone"?

If not, the number of beers you have to buy me is going up quite fast.

Lynn
29th-November-2005, 11:12 PM
Hmm, I understand the concept of church planting of course but isn't it usually in places without any existing church? Rather than 'competing' with others? I don't know James Cronin but I wish him all the best in this new venture.

Chris and Gus, sounds like that would be a very interesting conversation...

David Bailey
29th-November-2005, 11:22 PM
Hmm, I understand the concept of church planting of course but isn't it usually in places without any existing church? Rather than 'competing' with others?
Yeah, I was wondering that too - planting a church in the US Bible Belt? :confused:

Did James say why there, particularly?

Gus
29th-November-2005, 11:31 PM
Hmm, I understand the concept of church planting of course but isn't it usually in places without any existing church? Rather than 'competing' with others? I don't know James Cronin but I wish him all the best in this new venture.As abyone who has seen any coverage of US attitude to God, more Churchs, more evangelists and bigger donations do not make you closer to God ... in fact my cycnical view is that I can think of few places on the planet further from a real belief in God. Like fundamentalist Muslims, the American fundamentalist Christians scare the hell out of me. They have far more in common than you would like to believe. I can think that no matter what their 'official' religion, the vision that James has could only be a 'good' thing.


Chris and Gus, sounds like that would be a very interesting conversation...Not really. I found the book convincing but I'm by no means an evangelist ... just curious as to Chris's rather strong views.:o

Lynn
29th-November-2005, 11:46 PM
As abyone who has seen any coverage of US attitude to God, more Churchs, more evangelists and bigger donations do not make you closer to God ... in fact my cycnical view is that I can think of few places on the planet further from a real belief in God. Of course there is a big difference between 'religious' churches and 'Biblical' churches. And the 'Bible belt' might just be a 'religious wristband' these days. (Sorry for the wristband pun, I'm not the biggest fan of the Christian 'merchandising' items.)

Gadget
30th-November-2005, 01:01 AM
Spooky - I was just thinking about posing the question: Is Ceroc (MJ) a religion?
It teaches morality and ethical codes, has places of 'worship', teachers of 'the way', encourages social interaction and friendship, people get enthsed and 'evangelical' about it...

I'm hard pressed to find arguments against it being a religion! :what:

El Salsero Gringo
30th-November-2005, 10:03 AM
Spooky - I was just thinking about posing the question: Is Ceroc (MJ) a religion?
It teaches morality and ethical codes, has places of 'worship', teachers of 'the way', encourages social interaction and friendship, people get enthsed and 'evangelical' about it...

I'm hard pressed to find arguments against it being a religion! :what:er... it doesn't have a deity?

Gojive
30th-November-2005, 10:16 AM
Or enough hymns (according the hers anyway) :) ...

Mary
30th-November-2005, 10:51 AM
er... it doesn't have a deity?

I guess it does - JC - as in James Cronin? But not many of the congregation would know who James is these days, so there goes the 'worship' bit.

M

Lynn
30th-November-2005, 11:54 AM
Spooky - I was just thinking about posing the question: Is Ceroc (MJ) a religion?
It teaches morality and ethical codes, has places of 'worship', teachers of 'the way', encourages social interaction and friendship, people get enthsed and 'evangelical' about it...

I'm hard pressed to find arguments against it being a religion! :what:
Oh, another reference to 'New Religous Movements', sorry, can't resist...

We have had a discussion somewhere about 'is it a cult'... can't remember where.

To be a religious a movement or group really has to have a divinity or higher spiritual being that is worshipped in some form - while there are those who are held in high esteem in MJ, and some see to be able to do dancing miracles, I don't think anyone would actually pray to them as divine! But religious groups also provide people with community, identity and a sense of belonging, and the MJ world does provide this.

stewart38
30th-November-2005, 12:38 PM
er... it doesn't have a deity?


I thought Amir was the god ? Im totally confused now :sick:

Gadget
1st-December-2005, 12:38 AM
To be a religious a movement or group really has to have a divinity or higher spiritual being that is worshipped in some formDo they? Can't an ideal or philisophical concept be worshiped? Does there need to be a specific figurehead?
Can't we jsut say that we worship "Dance"? In the same way that people say they worship "God"?

David Bailey
1st-December-2005, 09:29 AM
Do they? Can't an ideal or philisophical concept be worshiped? Does there need to be a specific figurehead?
Can't we jsut say that we worship "Dance"? In the same way that people say they worship "God"?
I was about to say "no", but then I looked it up on dictionary.com:

Religion
1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


So 3 or 4 would fit I reckon. I don't personally agree with those definitions, however - to me, religion implies worship of a deity or deities, not any of this hippy wishy-washy spirituality stuff.

Lynn
1st-December-2005, 11:34 AM
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.


So 3 or 4 would fit I reckon. But a spiritual leader implies that people are following spiritual teachings. (Hmm, since you are still sweeping, maybe you have some spiritual teachings to impart?:whistle: )

I know sometimes that perfect dance, perfect connection with music and partner can sometimes feel almost 'spiritual' (in the same way I suppose that people in some groups take drugs to try to achieve a 'spiritual' level) but I don't think it is.

And I think the last point would more used to describe someone as being 'religious' about something, rather than referring to a 'religion'. But I could be wrong. I teach about New Religious Movements every week and I'm still often amazed at the extreme things some groups believe in (anyone see the programme last night about the saurin attacks in Japan 1995?).

Personally I think that the majority of 'religion' in the world is man-made, not God-inspired.

David Bailey
1st-December-2005, 12:51 PM
But a spiritual leader implies that people are following spiritual teachings. (Hmm, since you are still sweeping, maybe you have some spiritual teachings to impart?:whistle: )
"For is it not written: 'There's a lot of stuff going on we don't know about' ?" :whistle:

Lynn
1st-December-2005, 12:54 PM
"For is it not written: 'There's a lot of stuff going on we don't know about' ?" :whistle::rofl: Touche!

Great choice :worthy: Might just have to adopt that one for my sig!

David Bailey
1st-December-2005, 01:21 PM
:rofl: Touche!

Great choice :worthy: Might just have to adopt that one for my sig!
I'm sure we can come to a mutually-satisfactory purchase price. :innocent:

Gadget
1st-December-2005, 08:29 PM
But a spiritual leader implies that people are following spiritual teachings. (Hmm, since you are still sweeping, maybe you have some spiritual teachings to impart?:whistle: ) People are following teachings. What elements are needed to make them "spiritual"?


I know sometimes that perfect dance, perfect connection with music and partner can sometimes feel almost 'spiritual' (in the same way I suppose that people in some groups take drugs to try to achieve a 'spiritual' level) but I don't think it is.Why not? You are forming an intemate connection with your partner and the music; the dance god does not exist fully in any of these elements, but in the connection you strive to make between them.


Personally I think that the majority of 'religion' in the world is man-made, not God-inspired.And with dance as your god, you have both.

Lynn
1st-December-2005, 10:03 PM
I'm sure we can come to a mutually-satisfactory purchase price. :innocent:
So what's your going rate for sigs? Be warned, I know how to bargain. :wink:

Payment method...don't tell me...let me guess...rep perchance? :whistle:

Andy McGregor
2nd-December-2005, 07:59 PM
One of our local dancers writes this site. The latest count was that he has only one head.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

bigdjiver
3rd-December-2005, 03:12 AM
FWIW once again tonight I lead a partner into a "surprise" move, and she said "Oh, my God."

LMC
5th-December-2005, 05:04 PM
Being a pedant-in-training I was interested in the ubiquitous Wikipedia's definition of religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion)

Anyway, I thought Ceroc, like Hindu worships multiple gods - Ten innit? :innocent: