Swing, Jive or Salsa?

[Tessalicious]

I was reminded by Minnie's post about WCS teachers of something I noticed at a couple of smallish weekenders I've been on. This is that while most of these events offer a course of classes in both West Coast Swing and Lindy-hop, only the really big weekenders ever have a Salsa class, and then usually only one or two, and often by familiar teachers such as Viktor, and never for that matter any Ballroom Jive or R'n'R.

Since our beloved Ceroc is widely proclaimed as 'a salsa-jive fusion', why might it be the component dances are not being taught at these events? In my experience, if you have a Ceroc background, these dances are more possible to pick up in the course of a few lessons over a weekend than are the swing dances, and that what you learn in these is more easily used to advantage in dancing MJ itself. So given that one of the reasons behind the weekenders is to help people to improve their MJ dancing, it seems counterintuitive not to teach them.

I have a couple of possible theories, but am really interested to hear what others more in the know might have to contribute before I spout them.

[clevedonboy]

I've no input on the Salsa side of this. If it is badly under represented compared to Swing then this may be something that people should look at - i think variety is what weekenders should be about

WRT the "other half" of MJ. I'd pretty much say Lindy is THE way to learn it but really most of the swing variants use the same basic structure so perhaps the more generic "Swing Dance" would be a better way to describe early lessons. Swing dancing encourages good technique in body control, lead / follow & connection if nothing else and people can learn 6 count swing pretty quickly, so people can achieve quite a lot in just a few lessons.

Many Lindy shapes will be familiar to anyone who dances MJ, Turns, returns, change places, lady spin, catapult, basket, sway are all found in the original Lindy moves, so "all" you have to learn is that pesky moving your feet thing. Losing your inhibitions is probably the hardest thing.

WCS is very much a left field swing variant but it's brand recognition factor will make it a ready target for people attending weekenders.

[dancefiend]

I dance salsa, marangue and ceroc - I think there's more relationship between salsa and cha cha then it is to ceroc. For one thing the foot work - the guy moves with his left foot first whereas ceroc is the right foot.

You can also dance salsa to rock & roll music easier than you can dance ceroc to rock & roll.

I'm not sure why ceroc is called MJ, if jive consist of styles like Lindy Hop - they work on 6 counts - if I'm correct, whereas ceroc works on 4.

The closest proximity to ceroc is probably manangue - that works on 2 count where the stepping pattern is constant. The main difference is that marangue does not have the expansion & contraction of tension - but other than that it's quite similar.

[ducasi]

I dance salsa, marangue and ceroc - I think there's more relationship between salsa and cha cha then it is to ceroc. For one thing the foot work - the guy moves with his left foot first whereas ceroc is the right foot. :confused: In Salsa, in the basic step I step back left. In Ceroc, in the step back, I step back left. But then there's more to the dance than which foot you start with.

You can also dance salsa to rock & roll music easier than you can dance ceroc to rock & roll. Even more :confused:. I guess it depends what you mean by "rock & roll", but to my mind, Salsa to rock & roll would just look all wrong. MJ is derived from the dance that went hand-in-hand with R&R, and in my experience works quite well with it.

I'm not sure why ceroc is called MJ, if jive consist of styles like Lindy Hop - they work on 6 counts - if I'm correct, whereas ceroc works on 4. I would say that Lindy Hop is a different dance than Jive. I don't know what counts Jive requires, but I don't think Ceroc works on 4, 6 or any number. Every move has a its own count and you don't need to start any move on any particular count.

Does anyone know how "2-step Jive" relates to this?

The closest proximity to ceroc is probably manangue - that works on 2 count where the stepping pattern is constant. The main difference is that marangue does not have the expansion & contraction of tension - but other than that it's quite similar. Merengue has moves that are similar to Ceroc, but I think the style and timing is very different.


On the more general question... I went to a weekender a wee while back that as well as teaching some MJ and WCS (or as I like to call it WCBS ;)), taught some Mambo, Cha Cha, Belly Dancing, and Salsa, plus a wee bit of Line Dancing.

I don't know if any of that has influenced my Ceroc, but I found them all (or at least the ones I went to) very interesting.

[Andreas]

For quite some time (and possibly even now) Ceroc in particular was always afraid of 'advertising' the other dance styles. Ceroc is a business and it takes a lot of confidence to promote a competition that may (or may not) lure some of your punters away.

Down-under Ceroc opens slowly up to providing 'access' to the other styles during major events.

However, you only want to have a small number of workshops of other styles in your event because at the end of the day the emphasis is on Jive or it'd not be a Jive event :D

[clevedonboy]

:yeah: mostly

Don't think too deeply about what Jive is or your head will explode - we're talking about swing steps at the end of the day, have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Jive

The root is still Swing (Lindy)

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think Salsa differs from Ceroc in ways that the other dances mentioned dont:

The music is very different and inaccessible to people who's native culture includes Frank Sinatra style swing, modern pop and Hip Hop.

Not stepping on a beat (the four and the eight) in Salsa is very different from Ceroc and swing, where you add extra steps into the basic count (triple steps) rather than missing them out.

Cuban Salsa especially has a much closer feel than most people are comfortable with; Ceroc is more similar to Lindy I think in terms of your physical distance from your partner. Ditto WCS.

The biggest reason though I think is the difference in the music.

Not sure about Jive though.

[Jenni]

I think there's more relationship between salsa and cha cha then it is to ceroc.

:yeah:

You'd probably be easier dancing Lindy or Jive to rock'n'roll music than Salsa or Ceroc - friends of mine are rock'n'rollers and while as a cerocer I can follow their lead they find it very difficult to follow ceroc cause they don't have specific moves as such - more emphasis on turns and spins and not much on a step back between moves


:confused: In Salsa, in the basic step I step back left.

:confused: Do u mean forward on the left?

Thinking about it going back/forward on the left as a leader seems to be quite common certainly in most ballroom dances and WCS.
Ladies generally move off with the right foot - though I wasn't really taught footwork when I started MJ I've found thru doing other dances that's now normally the foot I use.

Jenni :flower:

[ducasi]

Do u mean forward on the left? Dunno. In the "Guapea" move, which we have been taught as a basic move, it starts with the guy stepping back left, and the girl stepping back right for the 1,2,3. Then on the 5,6,7 I step forward on my right, and the girl on her left.

I suppose other moves involves stepping forward first, but no matter what direction, it's always my left first.

In Ceroc I step back left, and I expect the girl to step back right as that's what the lead is telling her to do. (In my few goes at following I was worried I'd be stepping back left, as that's what I'm used to doing as a lead, but when I'm being led backward through my right arm it seemed perfectly natural to step back with my right foot.)

[Whitebeard]

Since our beloved Ceroc is widely proclaimed as 'a salsa-jive fusion', .....
I haven't heard it introduced from the stage in those terms for a little while now.




In Ceroc, in the step back, I step back left.
Do you? Really? Is that the Scottish way?

Whether it's Ceroc Essentials, or the first step (back) of the First Move, I have always been taught to step back Right and I would find it very counterintuitive to do otherwise.




You can also dance salsa to rock & roll music easier than you can dance ceroc to rock & roll.
I just don't know Salsa but find that hard to believe in view of the disparity in the music and the common origins of R & R and jive in its various forms. It has become a tradition (whether wise or not) at a local venue that, towards the end of the beginner class where the four moves are repeated twice to music, it is done a couple of times to music of R & R speed. That can be quite a challenge, but it is possible and indeed enjoyable, given the right partner.

The idea is to illustrate the use of smaller steps to faster music.

[TiggsTours]

I'm not sure why ceroc is called MJ, if jive consist of styles like Lindy Hop - they work on 6 counts - if I'm correct, whereas ceroc works on 4.
6 & 8 beat for Lindy.

Ceroc really doesn't work on any beat! There are 6 beat moves, 8 beat, 4 beat, even 2 beat, 3 beat, 12 beat, 73 beat! Its all a bit all over the place on structure really!

I think the only reason that Ceroc was suddenly called a "Jive Salsa Fusion", was because, at the time that came in, Salsa was so popular, whereas now its done a bit of a turnaround! I think that Ceroc is a mixture of all sorts of things, Jive, Rock & Roll, Salsa, Lindy, all mixed together and spat out in a big blob!

Don't get me wrong, I love the way Ceroc is, I love the fact that its big mixture of everything, with very little structure, so you can make whatever you want out of it, but I think if you're serious about dancing as an art form, not just a way to have fun and keep fit, then you need to learn something else.

But I do think that Ceroc & MJ have the best people, the best social scene, and is definately the most fun, welcoming and friendly of all the dance forms! :clap:

[Tessalicious]

Hey peeps, thanks for replying, and some interesting comments.

I have to say first that part of my conspiracy theory was that which Andreas mentioned, of Ceroc not wanting to introduce its members to 'the competition'. I can understand that this is an issue, and that they might think that certain types of people would be more attracted to the meat-market-type social ethic of Salsa clubs. One thing I'm curious about is why this doesn't apply to, for example, WCS, which can be a very sexy dance but doesn't seem to have this kind of image (in this country, yet :rolleyes: ).

I'm fascinated that you guys don't agree with the salsa part of the fusion statement. Ok, so the footwork is more precise, but the only real difference is that rather than stepping apart and then back in, the partners step in the same direction - in many of these new-fangled 'Ceroc essentials' warm-up sessions, the get-your-feet-moving footwork patterns are in salsa rhythm.

Not only that, but every time I go to a salsa class, I recognise at least one move as a basic or classic Ceroc move by another name - the pretzel, the basket, the octopus and the crucifix to name but a few. I agree that the timing of Ceroc is more similar to merengue, but the look of the dance is so different!

The only other thing I can think of is that the dances are actually too similar, so the average basic intermediate might get confused, whereas they don't think this is a problem with the more disparate swing dances?
But I do think that Ceroc & MJ have the best people, the best social scene, and is definately the most fun, welcoming and friendly of all the dance forms! :clap:Couldn't agree more!

[David Bailey]

Re: ceroc being a salsa / jive fusion:

I haven't heard it introduced from the stage in those terms for a little while now.
Well, that's what it says in the first sentence of the first page of the ceroc.com website :whistle:

It's rubbish, of course - just a marketing ploy to add some "sexiness" to the dance. Apparently Latin is sexier than French, I don't know if Franck wants to comment on that? :innocent:


Whether it's Ceroc Essentials, or the first step (back) of the First Move, I have always been taught to step back Right and I would find it very counterintuitive to do otherwise.
Please God, not this again.


I just don't know Salsa but find that hard to believe in view of the disparity in the music and the common origins of R & R and jive in its various forms.
I do know salsa, and I agree with you, it's difficult to believe.

OK, technically you can dance salsa to anything which has a 2-beat rhythm, but it'll look and feel very weird...

[Zebra Woman]

Of all the combinations of dances to have in an eveing I find modern Jive plus Salsa the most incongruous. I have only ever experienced it once at Cheshunt. It seemed really wierd to warm up , do a class, another warm up ....

and then not dance any salsa at all - all night.

I couldn't really see the point of doing a class in a dance form which would not be catered for by the DJ. Not that I would have wanted a salsa track to be played, as there were so few dancers who would have enjoyed it.

Dancing Salsa to ceroc music is extremely hard work as the whole dance has to be slowed right down and loses it's punch completely. To me it also feels completely wierd to dance salsa to non-salsa music.

IMO a Cha Cha (Cha? :confused: ) class would be infinitely more useful. I would expect at least 5 probably more chances to do that dance during a normal ceroc evening. You even hear real cha cha music at Ceroc freestyles. The cha cha step can even be blended into the middle of any MJ dance.

Like wise simple Lindy Hop steps too. They are a fab way of slowing down a fast track and adding musicality

Of all three Salsa is the worst fit with Ceroc IMO, purely because of the music.

Not to mention the fact that Salsa clubs are in direct competition with Ceroc nights. I don't think that is a huge factor, as IMO people will always gravitate towards their ideal dance in the end. It's kind of unstoppable.

ZW

[Gadget]

OK, technically you can dance salsa to anything which has a 2-beat rhythm, but it'll look and feel very weird...Gorillaz: "a' got sunshine" is brilliant to salsa to :D

[MartinHarper]

Not stepping on a beat (the four and the eight) in Salsa is very different from Ceroc and swing, where you add extra steps into the basic count (triple steps) rather than missing them out.

Outside the basic rhythm, there are plenty of fairly common footwork patterns in Lindy that involve not stepping on a particular beat. Different thing having it in the basic, I guess.

[ducasi]

Re: ceroc being a salsa / jive fusion:

Well, that's what it says in the first sentence of the first page of the ceroc.com website :whistle:

It's rubbish, of course - just a marketing ploy to add some "sexiness" to the dance. Apparently Latin is sexier than French, I don't know if Franck wants to comment on that? :innocent: Are there moves in MJ that also exist in Salsa? Do these moves exist in "traditional" jive (whatever that is)?

I know the answer to the first question, but would be interested in hear what the answer to the second question is.

If it's "no", then there must have been some sort of inclusion process which got these salsa moves into MJ. Let's call this process "fusion". :nice:

Of all the combinations of dances to have in an eveing I find modern Jive plus Salsa the most incongruous. Does MJ and Tango make sense? You can't switch between the two easily in the same dance, and much of the music for tango is too slow for normal MJ.

But a fusion exists, where lots of the moves of Tango have been taken and given a MJ make-over to make them fit the rest of the dance.

Is the same process not possible with Salsa and Jive? Isn't it possible that some of this claimed fusion actually did happen?

I'd be interesting in hearing a historical perspective, from anyone who actually knows the history of Modern Jive from experience.

[frodo]

Hey peeps, thanks for replying, and some interesting comments.

I have to say first that part of my conspiracy theory was that which Andreas mentioned, of Ceroc not wanting to introduce its members to 'the competition'. I can understand that this is an issue, and that they might think that certain types of people would be more attracted to the meat-market-type social ethic of Salsa clubs. One thing I'm curious about is why this doesn't apply to, for example, WCS, which can be a very sexy dance but doesn't seem to have this kind of image (in this country, yet :rolleyes: ).

Perhaps WCS (like Lindy, and perhaps even AT) is always going to be a minority thing, so it represents no real competition.

Even elsewhere doesn't WCS have an older demographic than Salsa.




I'm fascinated that you guys don't agree with the salsa part of the fusion statement. Ok, so the footwork is more precise, but ....
...
The only other thing I can think of is that the dances are actually too similar, so the average basic intermediate might get confused, whereas they don't think this is a problem with the more disparate swing dances?...!

Certainly a problem for me, though less so in Salsa where you have the distinctive music, and the speed to remind you, whereas with the slower jive it is far too easy to switch to Salsa if not concentrating.

Maybe others find it an issue the other way around ?

[David Bailey]

Are there moves in MJ that also exist in Salsa?
Certainly - most of them in fact. For example, I've seen a Tunnel done in salsa - in fact, it can look very nice in salsa, whereas of course it's the Move From Hell in MJ.

And, of course, cross-body-lead moves have recently been ported (and renamed "Latin Jive" by teachers such as Adam and Holly) from salsa. In fact, ZW, I'm sure you noticed that the recent Cheshunt salsa class was deliberately designed to be portable to MJ by focussing on cross-body moves, so :na:


I know the answer to the first question, but would be interested in hear what the answer to the second question is.
Hell, that'll teach me to reply before reading all of a post :tears:


Does MJ and Tango make sense? You can't switch between the two easily in the same dance, and much of the music for tango is too slow for normal MJ.
Actually, you can - you can dance AT to anything I believe. But again, it's much better to dance it to proper tango music, of course. I'll certainly admit that AT influence on MJ is very limited, with the honourable exceptions of a few teachers and venues such as Jango.


Is the same process not possible with Salsa and Jive? Isn't it possible that some of this claimed fusion actually did happen?.
Oh yes - MJ has definitely grabbed moves from salsa, jive, lindy, tango, you name it; it's an eclectic beast all right. Again I return to the language analogy - think of MJ as English, and other dances as other languages.

But the thing is, I don't believe salsa is or was the dominant influence on MJ / ceroc moves, certainly not when most of the moves were created in the 80s - as salsa wasn't a big deal in the UK until, ooh, the early 90's I'd say. So I think other dances have as much or greater input than salsa, and the description of MJ as a jive-salsa fusion is just a marketing ploy.

[dancefiend]

6 & 8 beat for Lindy.

Ceroc really doesn't work on any beat! There are 6 beat moves, 8 beat, 4 beat, even 2 beat, 3 beat, 12 beat, 73 beat! Its all a bit all over the place on structure really!

I think the only reason that Ceroc was suddenly called a "Jive Salsa Fusion", was because, at the time that came in, Salsa was so popular, whereas now its done a bit of a turnaround! I think that Ceroc is a mixture of all sorts of things, Jive, Rock & Roll, Salsa, Lindy, all mixed together and spat out in a big blob!

Yes ceroc footwork has a lot less structure. Those dances that you mention start with the first step with the left leg. Just wondering how the combination of all the dances result in the first step with the right leg (as a guy) in ceroc.



Don't get me wrong, I love the way Ceroc is, I love the fact that its big mixture of everything, with very little structure, so you can make whatever you want out of it, but I think if you're serious about dancing as an art form, not just a way to have fun and keep fit, then you need to learn something else.

But I do think that Ceroc & MJ have the best people, the best social scene, and is definately the most fun, welcoming and friendly of all the dance forms! :clap:

The opposit in sydney - salsa has really taken off and there are heaps of cut-price / free salsa nites though out the week Ceroc seems to have quietened down a little - still lots of ppl but doesn't seem to be as big from say 3 yrs ago.





Oh yes - MJ has definitely grabbed moves from salsa, jive, lindy, tango, you name it; it's an eclectic beast all right. Again I return to the language analogy - think of MJ as English, and other dances as other languages.

But the thing is, I don't believe salsa is or was the dominant influence on MJ / ceroc moves, certainly not when most of the moves were created in the 80s - as salsa wasn't a big deal in the UK until, ooh, the early 90's I'd say. So I think other dances have as much or greater input than salsa, and the description of MJ as a jive-salsa fusion is just a marketing ploy.

There's actually alot of cross pollination between dance styles. even within salsa - the cuban variety doesn't have much arm movements and neither does Potorecan. But LA style seems to have gotten its influence from ball room. You see alot of similar arm movements in salsa as in ceroc - sometimes it's the mirror image. Timing is usually different because of the difference in footwork. Entry & exit points might also be different.

[Zebra Woman]

Does MJ and Tango make sense? You can't switch between the two easily in the same dance, and much of the music for tango is too slow for normal MJ.

But a fusion exists, where lots of the moves of Tango have been taken and given a MJ make-over to make them fit the rest of the dance.

Is the same process not possible with Salsa and Jive? Isn't it possible that some of this claimed fusion actually did happen?

I'd be interesting in hearing a historical perspective, from anyone who actually knows the history of Modern Jive from experience.


I don't know the history of Modern Jive Ducasi even though I am probably old enough :blush: . But I have some opinions on fusion dancing. I like mixing dances, I have even enjoyed a polka fused with MJ (there was a lot of space OK?).

Salsa/Jive Fusion :sick:

It's great that moves are being shared between the dance forms, but I have to be honest and say no matter how good a Salsa move feels in Jive, when it
is done to Salsa music it feels 10 times better. Salsa moves make sense when they are danced with the Salsa foot work and the hesitations/accents that the footwork forces onto you IMO.

But I don't want to talk about that, If we ignore the move mixing/sharing that has gone on between Jive and Salsa, and just talk about dancing both dances:

I don't believe it's possible to comfortably fuse Salsa and Jive. I speak from some small experience as I have been trying to do it on and off for 5 years with a partner who knows about 6 salsa moves. The footwork patterns we do are the same as Cha Cha moves without the Cha Cha Cha...I cannot tell you how much easier it would be if we did the cha cha cha steps rather than the huge ponderous pause with very slow weight transfer. In fact it's more like a very bad rhumba in some ways (I think). The speed differential between salsa and jive music is so enormous that I don't see a fusion as even being desirable.

Some music makes me dance salsa, other would make me want to jive. I cannot think of a single song that I could do both to...except Mambo No 5. Only one problem I would have left the room already...:whistle: Another song with a salsa tempo Holly Valance's Kiss Kiss, (sorry JB) we all know that's too fast to jive to.


A long time ago I did Rock and Roll and encountered songs that were too fast for Jive and too slow for Rock and Roll and found them unpleaseant to dance to, I didn't know about Lindy then...

IME Salsa music is fast like Rock and Roll so tempo wise there will never be an overlap with Jive. But Cha cha cha (having the triple step just like Lindy) can easily plug the gap between jive and salsa music.

Speeding up from Modern Jive I can see two easty routes:

Jive - Cha Cha Cha - Salsa
Jive - Lindy - R&R


Tango/Jive Fusion :drool:

Amir has shown how it is possible and very enjoyable to fuse Tango and Jive. With the right music and precise leading it is possible to lead the transition from smooth jive into Tango. I know a lot of us followers adore doing this, and if we miss the first invitation to do ochos or whatever we will often apologise and ask for another chance. IMO The right music is key here, this is one reason I seek out the slower music. It offers the option for a different kind of dancing.....Lush.


Sorry have I droned on a bit here?

ZW

[Trish]

I think looking at Strictly come dancing recently, and especially the "American Smooth" they were doing on Saturday in the Results show, that a lot of Ceroc moves were taken from Ballroom. Most of the moves in Ceroc seem to be nicked, and then simplified, so they can be difficult to recognise - ie the arms might be the same in Salsa and Ceroc for an Octopus for example, but the footwork would be different. Or some of the seducer type moves might come from Ballroom but the pattern getting in and out of them would be simplfied. Some of the aerials have even been taken from ballet. This is part of the beauty of Ceroc though, something for everyone, depending on what you like and what the music is doing. As I've recently been learning ballroom with a couple of the guys from Ceroc, last night I was dancing bits of Cha Cha Cha to Sway, and then dancing bits of Ballroom jive to something faster (I think it was The Snake).

I agree with ZW though, as far as the music goes, Cha cha is the best fit and there are only a very few tunes that Salsa would really fit with (not that I really know much Salsa, but I've done little bits here and there).

[David Bailey]

I think looking at Strictly come dancing recently, and especially the "American Smooth" they were doing on Saturday in the Results show, that a lot of Ceroc moves were taken from Ballroom.
Hah! That's weird - I looked at it and thought "That looks like Ceroc, they're using Ceroc moves" !

(I think your view is almost certainly more correct, by the way)

[frodo]

I think looking at Strictly come dancing recently, and especially the "American Smooth" they were doing on Saturday in the Results show, that a lot of Ceroc moves were taken from Ballroom. Most of the moves in Ceroc seem to be nicked, and then simplified

I understood the origin of American Style Ballroom was in making the dances more immediately attractive to beginners, and less strict.

If so it wouldn't be surprising if they'd picked up the same sort of things as Ceroc independently though.

[Trish]

I understood the origin of American Style Ballroom was in making the dances more immediately attractive to beginners, and less strict.

If so it wouldn't be surprising if they'd picked up the same sort of things as Ceroc independently though.

Yes, I would guess that is what they have done, and I think from the little I've read about it, that is what the American Style is. I think the film influence also comes in there though, you get the impression they're really proud of the heritage of Astaire and Rogers, or Gene Kelly, Cyd Charisse etc, so the moves may be made to look like the moves from the movies to appeal to the public. This could possibly be why things like sways/wraps/walkrounds have been used in Ceroc (maybe?). I like it anyway!

[Dorothy]

Not sure I totally agree with the "fusion" between styles such as modern jive and salsa/tango.
Vive la difference!

[David Bailey]

Not sure I totally agree with the "fusion" between styles such as modern jive and salsa/tango.
It's not a real fusion, of course - for example, MJ and salsa music are so totally different that you couldn't really fuse them. In fact, tango music is closer to MJ in beat I reckon, but I don't know enough about it to be confident in that.

What happens is that MJ, being such an ecletic beast, "imports" (or steals) some moves and style from other dances, in the same way English uses words from, say, Spanish. Doesn't mean that Spanish isn't still a lovely language, of course.

As far as I know, other dances haven't imported anything from MJ, I'd be interested if anyone knows any differently?

[Lynn]

What happens is that MJ, being such an ecletic beast, "imports" (or steals) some moves and style from other dances, in the same way English uses words from, say, Spanish. Doesn't mean that Spanish isn't still a lovely language, of course. I like that 'imported words' analogy!

[dancefiend]

It's not a real fusion, of course - for example, MJ and salsa music are so totally different that you couldn't really fuse them. In fact, tango music is closer to MJ in beat I reckon, but I don't know enough about it to be confident in that.

Yes the music is different - such that you won't use the 123..567.. foot work timing in MJ. But you can certainly incorporate the L/L hand lead, cross body leads and what ever varients they contain into MJ. You can also use guy step back left on 1 in MJ instead of back on the right foot.

[David Bailey]

Yes the music is different - such that you won't use the 123..567.. foot work timing in MJ. But you can certainly incorporate the L/L hand lead, cross body leads and what ever varients they contain into MJ.
You can indeed, and if you've been to or seen any of the "Latin Jive" classes taught at weekenders, you'll notice that, oh yes, they're teaching cross-body leads :)

(in fact, my very first post on this Forum was about cross-body leads, ahh, the nostalgia....)

But that's not (to me) "fusion" - you're just importing NY salsa moves into MJ, which is easy because MJ is so unstructured. But you're still dancing MJ, albeit stylish, cool and quite Latin-y MJ.

Trying to teach salsa moves to an MJ audience isn't too tricky - hell, I can do it, how hard can it be? - but trying to get them up to even medium-speed salsa is tricky. I put on a standard salsa romantica track on (OK, admittedly by mistake) for the warm-down a few weeks ago, and it freaked most of them out. Warmed them down nicely though :)

Anyway, the point of all this rambling is that I can't really see any "fusion" between salsa and MJ, mainly because the speeds of the two types of music are generally so different. The more I try it, the more I think it's actually easier to do Argentinian Tango to MJ than salsa. :what:

Of course, we could be simply quibbling about what "fusion" means :grin:



You can also use guy step back left on 1 in MJ instead of back on the right foot.
Argh! Not the "step back on the left" debate :eek: :tears: :)

[dancefiend]

Trying to teach salsa moves to an MJ audience isn't too tricky - hell, I can do it, how hard can it be? - but trying to get them up to even medium-speed salsa is tricky. I put on a standard salsa romantica track on (OK, admittedly by mistake) for the warm-down a few weeks ago, and it freaked most of them out. Warmed them down nicely though :)

Argh! Not the "step back on the left" debate :eek: :tears: :)

I agree, doesn't feel right to dance ceroc to salsa music. This was the main reason why I learned salsa because ceroc doesn't work and salsa was getting popular - I didn't want to miss out on the dance scene!

If it had worked I would have been too lazy to learn another dance. Why spend time studying when you can dance and have a good time.

I wasn't aware of the debate regarding step back with the left foot. Didn't think there was that much in it for a debate!!!!

[David Bailey]

I wasn't aware of the debate regarding step back with the left foot. Didn't think there was that much in it for a debate!!!!
:eek: :tears: Oh no, not again...

[Whitebeard]

:eek: :tears: Oh no, not again...

Think that's now a taboo subject.

It's either the thought police or the ten.

[Mr Cool]

Anyway, the point of all this rambling is that I can't really see any "fusion" between salsa and MJ, mainly because the speeds of the two types of music are generally so different. The more I try it, the more I think it's actually easier to do Argentinian Tango to MJ than salsa.




Why would anyone want to try to dance MJ to salsa music?
The truth is most salsa dancers ignore the music any way.
There are plenty of slow to medium pace latin tracks played at MJ events that people can dance salsa or rumba or a combination of salsa rumba MJ including WC and swing if they like, even AT fits.
Do salsa dancers get tired of the same old fast music? :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[dancefiend]

Do salsa dancers get tired of the same old fast music? :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

I like the fast but not super fast LA salsa music. It's great to be able to do a million things in 1/2 a song. Because salsa doens't have as much expansion and contraction - u don't lose time to do the next thing. It's possible to go straight from one thing to the next way way cool.

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I did salsa for about 2 years and while I was able to blend many salsa moves and styling into Ceroc I found it really hard to blend the dances. However they also had Street Latin Cha Cha Cha classes which I really enjoyed.

They said that 90% of salsa moves can be done in the Cha and there are Latin Cha rthymns. So seeing that lots of people are saying that the Cha can be done within MJ and that Cha music is played at MJ events is it possible that Cha is a link between the two dances?

Also is there a Cha Fusion style dance in the UK?...Cha Jive...Chive...Chave...Jive Jive Jive...ok I will stop now!

[Whitebeard]

..... Because salsa doens't have as much expansion and contraction - u (you?) don't lose time to do the next thing. It's possible to go straight from one thing to the next way way cool.

That explains, rather nicely, a question that was in my mind. Not that I want to go there, smooth and silky (maybe even sultry) is where I want to go.

[dancefiend]

That explains, rather nicely, a question that was in my mind. Not that I want to go there, smooth and silky (maybe even sultry) is where I want to go.

One of the tricks i use to "save time" in ceroc is to step forward and chase the girl after a "move" instead of stepping back and having that expansion before doing something else. I find going into the "manhatten step" creates a continuous connection with a similar feel to salsa. U'r maintaining the same distance to your partner.

[Rhythm King]

One of the tricks i use to "save time" in ceroc is to step forward and chase the girl after a "move" instead of stepping back and having that expansion before doing something else. I find going into the "manhatten step" creates a continuous connection with a similar feel to salsa. U'r maintaining the same distance to your partner.

Amir teaches the lead to "follow the follower" in both his first move and manhattan variations. It works really well and helps to develop a smooth style.

[dancefiend]

Amir teaches the lead to "follow the follower" in both his first move and manhattan variations. It works really well and helps to develop a smooth style.

Cool. does Amir do salsa as well. This is not something I learned from ceroc. rather its an adaption from salsa.... kind of figured it out during free style.

[Rhythm King]

Cool. does Amir do salsa as well. This is not something I learned from ceroc. rather its an adaption from salsa.... kind of figured it out during free style.

I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does. He's just spent a month in Buenos Aires working on his tango though. Apparently it was hot there...

[David Bailey]

Going back to the original post:

Since our beloved Ceroc is widely proclaimed as 'a salsa-jive fusion', why might it be the component dances are not being taught at these events?
I've had a good think about this, and I have a strong suspicion that both "pure" salsa and "pure" jive are both seen as competitors to MJ by some elements of the Ceroc hierarchy / franchisees.

So promotion of both of these dance forms is not encouraged at many places.

I think it's a shame, as I think there's a big potential market for Ceroc to go into, teaching salsa in a proper organised and structured fashion - possibly also for jive, although I'm not familiar with the jive scene.

[MartinHarper]

I like mixing dances, I have even enjoyed a polka fused with MJ (there was a lot of space OK?).

I do love a fusion of Very Bad Polka and MJ. Bouncy, spinny, speedy - what's not to like. :)
Very Bad Polka is nicely demonstrated on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh2FYcTQuIg

So I'm practicing. With slow Ceroc I can only ruin the atmosphere in a small part of a Blues Room, but Very Bad Polka carries the potential to ruin the atmosphere throughout the entire Blues Room. Plus it finally kills off the old floorcraft advice about the edges of the room being safest.

[mikeyr]

Cha cha cha and salsa share the same heritage, so when at a salsa club and a slowish salsa number is played I like to cha cha, some of the cross body leads are the same and some of the basic moves are the same. When at an MJ night and a cha cha comes on I like to either cha cha or salsa, I find that in either case its the footwork that confuses people not the upper body moves.

The one thing I find when going to a Salsa class or club is there is almost no cross over from modern jive:confused: Anyway check this salsa link, see what you think.

http://www.vidiac.com/video/20955e43-e5e4-41b5-ad4d-e4e1aa626200.htm