How much lead and follow can be taught in a standard weekday class?

[Magic Hans]

Premise 1: Lead and follow ability is fundamental to Modern Jive - even at a beginners level!

Premise 2: Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading [I would point to SCD's Colin Wright & Darren Gough on the one hand, and the chap from Casualty on the other as anecdotal evidence]. Hence some women have a hard time learning to follow and some men, a hard time learning to lead.

[Please feel free to disagree - with reasons]

I've been in 'standard' weekday classes where certain aspects of lead and follow have been presented and taught, and wonder at how effective this is.

I fully accept that 99% if not 100% of teachers have the best of intentions. However, in some classes, I have heard the teacher calling out "pull" and "push" at various times in the routine, in order to give the leader a cue as to how he is supposed to be leading, and other classes teachers talking about tension, and being able to feel a partner's tension.

Playing Devil's Advocate, in the first instance, I have a worrying image of the leader treating their follower like a rag doll; in the second, both lead and follow leaning back against eachother for every step back, resulting in joint damage to both.

Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone? What aspect of feeling that lead/follow is important, or vital? If important, what can be effectively learned/taught mechanical without that feel?

How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this? How much lead/follow can be learned, when the follower knows what's happening next?

.... I'll keep quiet for a bit now!!

Please discuss!

Ian

[Gadget]

Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone?
Without a partner? The paths the hands(/lead) take and the positions the bodys should be in can be taught, but the level of guidance and the forces that need to be applied to actually make this a reality need a partner. (And to learn properly, need several partners of varying ability/resistance/flaws)

Amar mentioned that this was the way that he learned: practiced the movements and positioning without a partner, then worked out how to do it with one. Personally I work the other way round and work out how to get the follower to go where I want before working out where I should be... perhaps one of the multitude of reasons that he's such a better dancer.


How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this? How much lead/follow can be learned, when the follower knows what's happening next?The teaching model lays down the basics: you can pick up on these basics however you want to - they are presented in such a way that either style of learning works.
What you need to do is get the followers following, then the leads have to lead. The only way to do this {I have seen that works} is to introduce some random element that the leads have to decide on their own:
- hold at one count untill the lead is ready to continue.
- Don't finish with a 'return and step back': encourage a different way to return to the starting spots (men spin, shoulder slide, step accross being the most obvious
- on a repetative element (like the sway steps in a 'slo comb' or 'side-to-side' "bumps" in the move of the same name), repeat untill board.

What I try to do is lead the beginner moves as smoothly as I can so that each count of the move just happens to coincide with the position you should be in at that point - instead of moving A and B and C. it's A through B to C. This forces the follower to actually move with me rather than the necessary stacatto movements from the stage.

[Ghost]

Premise 1: Lead and follow ability is fundamental to Modern Jive - even at a beginners level!
Yes. The only way to dance without lead and follow in freestyle I can think of is for both of you to do the moves by rote and follow the same order of moves taught in the class. I suppose this could also work for dancing a set piece.


Premise 2: Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading [I would point to SCD's Colin Wright & Darren Gough on the one hand, and the chap from Casualty on the other as anecdotal evidence]. Hence some women have a hard time learning to follow and some men, a hard time learning to lead.
Hmm interesting. I don’t know. So are you saying women who are more inclined to lead are more likely to backlead?


Playing Devil's Advocate, in the first instance, I have a worrying image of the leader treating their follower like a rag doll; in the second, both lead and follow leaning back against eachother for every step back, resulting in joint damage to both.
Seems plausible. “now put your hands on their chest” has made me do a double take when I haven’t been playing attention :blush: . (And I’m not the only one. Why do they call this out in the beginners class when women are paired up together? :confused: )


Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone?
To a limited degree. I use silk hankerchiefs. It’s a clear way to see how smooth and fluid your movements are and where the clunky bits are. I’ve also used wooden staffs and a giant teddy bear. You can also to an extent practice leading yourself. Ultimately though, like many things, it’s much better with a good woman :whistle: .


What aspect of feeling that lead/follow is important, or vital?
Connection :hug: , fluidity.


If important, what can be effectively learned/taught mechanical without that feel?
The physical movements. Timing, musicality. Actually most stuff. It’s just that you’re handicapping yourself if you don’t have those two elements


How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this? How much lead/follow can be learned, when the follower knows what's happening next?
Not terribly. In my experience ladies are noticeably better when they haven’t done Ceroc for a while and have forgotten the moves. Their body still remembers how to follow. :flower:

Oh and :yeah: to Gadget’s comments

Take care,
Christopher

[ducasi]

Amar mentioned that this was the way that he learned: practiced the movements and positioning without a partner, then worked out how to do it with one. Personally I work the other way round and work out how to get the follower to go where I want before working out where I should be... perhaps one of the multitude of reasons that he's such a better dancer. I understood something different from what Amir said, which sort-of matches my own behaviour – but instead of putting words in his mouth, I'll describe what works for me.

When I'm learning a complex move in class, I need to know what both my partner and I should be doing before I can fully lead my partner through the whole move.

So, if we're doing a particularly tricky move and I just can't get it and nor can any of my partners – I will be relying on them to step through the move "right" mostly without my lead – then we're in trouble. Even if I am doing the move right, if the girl can't then I end up confused. But what tends to happen is that either it eventually clicks with me what we should both be doing, or more often I end up with a partner who knows what she's supposed to be doing and it makes it easier at that point for me to know that my movements are rights, or to get them right.

Once both my partner and myself are able to do the move, then I am going to be able to concentrate on leading it properly. I should then be able to lead subsequent partners through the move even if they don't know what they are supposed to be doing.

So I learn the move first, then I learn how to lead it. I don't think I could do either without a partner – at least not the more complex moves.

I remember an instance where with the right partner I'd just figured out how a move is supposed to work. She said something like "you're doing the move right, but you're not leading me." I replied "well I've only just got it, now let's see if I can lead it..." ... step, step, step, ... "That's better!"

I don't know if any of this answers the original question.

[David Bailey]

Can't believe I missed this...


Premise 1: Lead and follow ability is fundamental to Modern Jive - even at a beginners level!
:yeah: In fact I'd strengthen it to say " Lead and follow ability is fundamental to any partner dancing activity, at any level, at any time."


Premise 2: Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading [I would point to SCD's Colin Wright & Darren Gough on the one hand, and the chap from Casualty on the other as anecdotal evidence]. Hence some women have a hard time learning to follow and some men, a hard time learning to lead.
Err.... what's your premise based on? Detailed psychological studies? 'Coz much as I like SCD, I wouldn't call it a thorough piece of scientific research.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can't take gender entirely out of the lead-follow debate...


Can leading/following be taught mechanically alone? What aspect of feeling that lead/follow is important, or vital? If important, what can be effectively learned/taught mechanical without that feel?
I've learnt more about lead-and-follow in 8 Argentinian Tango classes than in any 80 MJ classes I can name. So yes, I think it can be taught "mechanically", IMO.


How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this?
Diabolically bad. Possibly even worse-than-useless at some times. But that's not what the Ceroc model is about - it's about raising beginner retention levels by making partner dancing look and feel easy to learn.

Anything that says "Actually, it's quite difficult, and there's a lot more to it..." is contrary to that model, as it could put beginners off.

[Lynn]

In fact I'd strengthen it to say " Lead and follow ability is fundamental to any partner dancing activity, at any level, at any time." :yeah: Its the main thing that I look for now in any dance classes of any sort - do they show the moves and how to do them or do they show the moves and how to lead and follow them. There is a difference.


I've learnt more about lead-and-follow in 8 Argentinian Tango classes than in any 80 MJ classes I can name. So yes, I think it can be taught "mechanically", IMO. Oh, this is encouraging. I'm going to start doing Argentinian Tango classes in January, good to know it might help improve my following in general.

[Trish]

Irrespective of gender (approx) half the population has a personality that is condusive to following, and half condusive to leading

Err.... what's your premise based on? Detailed psychological studies? 'Coz much as I like SCD, I wouldn't call it a thorough piece of scientific research.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can't take gender entirely out of the lead-follow debate...

I agree with Magic Hans on this one - some men are better followers than they are leaders, some women are better leaders than they are followers - If I knew anything about Sociology/Psychology I would go away and study it - could be facinating. My guess is it's to do with personality types or homone levels or something. I would say it often goes with gender, but some women have more masculine brains, and some men more feminine. And no, I haven't really got much evidence, but I have danced lead and follow with a variety of men and women. I don't mean anything offensive by this BWT, if I did I'd be saying I was masculine, which I'm not particularly :wink: .



How effective is the CEROC model at teaching this?

Got to agree with David on this one, I also think it's generally pretty bad. But then again when I have seen people like Marc try to teach good lead/follow technique to people, unless it is dancers that are interested in the technical side of things, they just switch off. Is this really the fault of the teacher? Most average Ceroc dancers are not interested in listening, or really interested in technique, only in learning more moves to wrestle their way into. There - feel free to flame me!! :devil: I would think the people on this forum however are interested in technique, or why are they reading about it for hours?!

[Gadget]

But then again when I have seen people like Marc try to teach good lead/follow technique to people, unless it is dancers that are interested in the technical side of things, they just switch off. Is this really the fault of the teacher?
Yes.
The teacher's job is to pitch the lesson at the level of the class. If the teacher wants to introduce good technique as well as the fun and easy to pick up aspects, then they have to pitch it right.
What tends to happen is that the teaches stands and talks and talks while the class get restless. Talk, demo, talk some more, demo, talk demo....etc. you need to show the class what you are doing and get them involved - avoid takling too long about this, that and the next.
If it needs further explanation then give it to the class in peicemeal format: "Next time, we are going to do it while..."

{all IMHO of course}

[MartinHarper]

What tends to happen is that the teaches stands and talks and talks while the class get restless.

This is largely because it's so pointless. I know the words that can describe a good lead. That's easy. The difficult part is making my actions resemble those words. For me, at least, that means exercises rather than lectures.

[Magic Hans]

I generally agree with the consensus that, certainly for effective freestyle dancing, lead/follow ability is fundamental. I understand that classic type sequence dancing does not rely on lead/follow, and I have a memory of dancing jive with one lady who only ever jived with her partner. It was almost impossible to lead, since she seemed to be used to back-leading her partner.

Further, the little AT that I've done has focussed far more on lead/follow than moves. In fact the first lesson had little more than walk, rock and side-together-side steps, simply using the music as a framework for this. That manner of subtle lead is, I believe, an incredibly useful experience for any sort of lead/follow freestyle dance.

Personally I don't believe that any significant aspect of lead/follow can be learned purely mechanically. It is fundamentally a skill involving feel and feedback. Specific moves, of course, are the mechanical counterpart of this.

The tenet of this thread really comes from my own experience. Having started Salsa-ing in 94 (fairly on and off) it took me little short of 5 years to become a comfortable lead. [Probably about 200-300 hours] And yet, although I have had no real practice, I am fairly comfortable at following. I believe that I am a more natural follow than lead .... hence an extended learning curve.

It seems a shame to me that leading (in particular) is not effectively focussed on more. The scene is generally short of men, and those (like myself) who are not natural leads, are more likely to give up, since the learning curve for us is that much steeper, requiring that much more effort and persistence.

I wonder if there is a better male/female ratio in Scotland, where there seems to be a little more work done on lead/follow? [unless I'm mistaken!]

[jivecat]

But then again when I have seen people like Marc try to teach good lead/follow technique to people, unless it is dancers that are interested in the technical side of things, they just switch off. Is this really the fault of the teacher? Most average Ceroc dancers are not interested in listening, or really interested in technique, only in learning more moves to wrestle their way into.

Sadly, I have to agree with this. :mad: It irritates the hell out of me in such classes to have listen to drongo, yanking apes moan about "What a waste of time the lesson is today". No, it's not the fault of the teacher. I've never quite hit upon the right retort - maybe "If the teacher's such a waste of time, how come he can dance a trillion times better than you???"

Sorry, rant mode overtook me for a few seconds there.

In salsa classes lead/follow is taught far more explicitly than in most ceroc classes. The teacher has spelt out explicitly to the followers that they must not anticipate - catchphrase- "If you don't feel it, don't fake it"!! The class is small enough that offenders can be detected and corrected.

I had thought that he'd taught how to lead fairly clearly until I asked one fellow level 2er to dance. He stood in front of me with a helpless puppy dog expression and waited for me to start leading. Sweet!

The "taught routine" format of Ceroc beginner classes stands in the way of teaching lead and follow because it is so hard for the ladies not to just go through the memorised steps. But it doesn't have to be like this. I've been to WCS classes where a limited number of basic moves were taught but leaders had to decide in which order to put them in, giving them confidence and preventing the followers from anticipating.

[David Bailey]

The "taught routine" format of Ceroc beginner classes stands in the way of teaching lead and follow because it is so hard for the ladies not to just go through the memorised steps. But it doesn't have to be like this. I've been to WCS classes where a limited number of basic moves were taught but leaders had to decide in which order to put them in, giving them confidence and preventing the followers from anticipating.
Very good point.

In the AT classes I've done, I've always made a point of (attempting to) lead any move when practicing, as if it were part of a freestyle - i.e. I'll do a bit of messing around, then attempt to lead that move, rather than follow the exact sequence the teacher has shown.

It's gotten me a few weird looks, but at least I trained my partners not to anticipate, and I think it helped both of us.

It wouldn't be easy to do that in a Ceroc class, but neither would it be impossible - given enough preparation, a routine could be devised so that any moves can be in any sequence, or the dancers could be asked to mix it up a little, maybe?

[Gadget]

I think that you need the routine in sequence; it's a good method, it's easy to follow and it works. But I did hear of one venue (an independant, or austrailian I think) that encouraged the class to finish the move just taught with a random move.

Personally, I have started adding in a random return method to get the follower back to their 'spot' during classes (or adding in an extra spin/turn/man-turn if it's the same side): It dosn't disrupt anything, takes the same amount of time as shuffling round into position again and helps me understand how I can use the move in freestyle better.
It may also be of benifit to the followers in terms of anticipating and getting them 'ready' for freestyle - but I wouldn't know for sure.

[ducasi]

The "taught routine" format of Ceroc beginner classes stands in the way of teaching lead and follow because it is so hard for the ladies not to just go through the memorised steps. But somehow people taught this way manage in freestyle when the ladies don't know what move is coming next...

[MartinHarper]

Somehow people taught this way manage in freestyle when the ladies don't know what move is coming next...

I can't count the number of times that I've been taught a move, felt that I had it absolutely fine in class, and it's remained resolutely unleadable in freestyle.
Of course, this also happens to me when lead/follow is taught properly... but not as often.


I did hear of one venue (an independant, or austrailian I think) that encouraged the class to finish the move just taught with a random move.

That's the culture in the JazzJive classes I've been to. I'm not sure how it was introduced. It works well, though I guess it's scary for the beginners. It's not mentioned from the stage.

[LMC]

Somehow people taught this way manage in freestyle when the ladies don't know what move is coming next...
From a follower's point of view, even in freestyle, it's too easy to assume you know what's coming next - "oh, it's a yo-yo"... "now there'll be a return..." I really try hard not to anticipate, but dancing with a Really Good Dancer who doesn't necessarily "do moves" shows me that I am sometimes not as good a follower as I would like to be :sad:

And when dancing with beginners, I sometimes find it difficult to find the balance between "just standing there" and *making* them lead (which has gone down so badly the very few times I've tried it) and helping them out a bit - if I'm taxi-ing then calling the moves over the music is my preferred option, but is not easy!


I can't count the number of times that I've been taught a move, felt that I had it absolutely fine in class, and it's remained resolutely unleadable in freestyle.
:devil: It's funny, the number of guys that feel they need to ask you if you were in the intermediate class... the look of consternation on some faces when I say with a wicked grin "No, but carry on, it'll show if I can follow you" - or if it's someone I know reasonably well - "No, but carry on, it'll show if you can lead 'em properly" :devil:

[ducasi]

I can't count the number of times that I've been taught a move, felt that I had it absolutely fine in class, and it's remained resolutely unleadable in freestyle.
Of course, this also happens to me when lead/follow is taught properly... but not as often. My comment was in the context of beginners, and beginners' classes.

Despite the apparent lack of teaching lead and follow in Ceroc, somehow :what: these beginners when they are dancing manage (eventually) to lead their partners.

They must be getting that from somewhere...

[LMC]

For leads, possibly from dancing with follows who are even more beginner-ish than they are?

[MartinHarper]

My comment was in the context of beginners, and beginners' classes.

My comment applies to both beginner and intermediate classes.

[DundeeDancer]

When I'm learning a complex move in class, I need to know what both my partner and I should be doing before I can fully lead my partner through the whole move.

So, if we're doing a particularly tricky move and I just can't get it and nor can any of my partners – I will be relying on them to step through the move "right" mostly without my lead – then we're in trouble. Even if I am doing the move right, if the girl can't then I end up confused. But what tends to happen is that either it eventually clicks with me what we should both be doing, or more often I end up with a partner who knows what she's supposed to be doing and it makes it easier at that point for me to know that my movements are rights, or to get them right.

Once both my partner and myself are able to do the move, then I am going to be able to concentrate on leading it properly. I should then be able to lead subsequent partners through the move even if they don't know what they are supposed to be doing.

So I learn the move first, then I learn how to lead it. I don't think I could do either without a partner – at least not the more complex moves.

I remember an instance where with the right partner I'd just figured out how a move is supposed to work. She said something like "you're doing the move right, but you're not leading me." I replied "well I've only just got it, now let's see if I can lead it..." ... step, step, step, ... "That's better!"


Last night at my local club night we were trying to learn a few complex moves and I wasn't getting it. The chap next to me had it licked so I thought I would just copy him. So I was watching what he was doing then trying to do the same with my partner. This meant I was half a second behind what the teacher was calling out, so my partner just kept going ahead and at 1 vital point they always lead themselves in completely the wrong direction. 3 to 4 partners in a row just muddled round the moves doing what they thought was right and not taking to much notice of my weak lead and just doing there own thing. So I just didn't get the move at all.

So fustrating! and this is not the first night this has happened. Infact it's about the 4th week in a row we've had difficult twisty moves to lead. If it continues I'll need to use some tactics to get any enjoyment out the class.

One thing I have in mind would be to pick a good follower and only dance with her throughout the class, take ourselves out the rotation.

Think I might need to have a word with the teacher but as a beginner to the intermediate class I get the feeling there attitude will be, everyone else manages with the system the way it is so get on with it. :sick:

[killingtime]

One thing I have in mind would be to pick a good follower and only dance with her throughout the class, take ourselves out the rotation.

Or you might just learn how to lead that follower into that move. I tend to only fix partner where I'm following and/or I'm dancing with another guy, I'm not really convinced about stepping out of rotation in a regular class.

I'll often start with more complex moves that way, start with partners I know are good followers and try working out how I can lead it clearer for less strong followers as well.

[Twirly]

Think I might need to have a word with the teacher but as a beginner to the intermediate class I get the feeling there attitude will be, everyone else manages with the system the way it is so get on with it. :sick:

You might want to be patient with yourself too! The step from beginners to intermediate is a big one - especially for leads. Don't fret if you don't get every move that's taught in the class. Most leads seem to say that they don't remember them beyond that evening anyway. If you can get one move right, and remember it, you'll be doing brilliantly.

And do have a word with the teacher. Am sure that you won't be the first person to have done it, and I doubt that you'll get the reaction that you fear.

I do sometimes think that classes get moved on too quickly. It would be nice to have 2-3 repetitions of something with someone so that you can iron out any problems (whether you're a lead or a follow). Have often been in the middle of being helped/helping someone else, only to have to dessert them :rolleyes:

[straycat]

Have often been in the middle of being helped/helping someone else, only to have to dessert them :rolleyes:

I'm getting this strange mental image of you smothering someone in cream and chocolate sauce in the middle of a class, then putting strawberries in their hair.

How often, exactly? And is this common practice in your part of the world? :whistle:

[Twirly]

I'm getting this strange mental image of you smothering someone in cream and chocolate sauce in the middle of a class, then putting strawberries in their hair.

How often, exactly? And is this common practice in your part of the world? :whistle:

:rofl: I must be hungry! The Knickerbocker Glory move anyone? :wink:

actually, you've given me ideas for the weekend...

[spindr]

Hmmm, get on the floor quickly when the class starts -- so that you get a good view of the teacher, rather than relying on a potentially "chinese whispered" version (as it gets copied from leader to leader all the way down the row :) )

SpinDr

[DundeeDancer]

I think the next time I go to the intermediate class I will ask the dance instructor to say something to the followers along the lines:-

During class followers should relax :waycool: and not worry about keeping up with instructions as they are for the lead to action.

The followers should only try to follow which is being lead and therefore try not to anticipate the moves but wait for a lead to be given and in most circumstances the lead will pick up the moves faster if the follower just follows what is being lead even if it is wrong.

If nothing is being lead then it totally acceptable just to stand still and smile :D until the lead decides to lead something.

I think that's probably the best approach as my worst experiences in class so far have been when followers have wrongly anticipated the moves and have spun quickly in the wrong direction :( and we have got in a complete tangle.:o

Any one any opinions if this is going in the direction for making learning in class easier? :confused:

Cheers, DD.

[timbp]

During class followers should relax :waycool: and not worry about keeping up with instructions as they are for the lead to action.

The followers should only try to follow which is being lead and therefore try not to anticipate the moves but wait for a lead to be given and in most circumstances the lead will pick up the moves faster if the follower just follows what is being lead even if it is wrong.

If nothing is being lead then it totally acceptable just to stand still and smile :D until the lead decides to lead something.

Is that supposed to be a new, exciting innovation in ceroc teaching?

I thought it was standard teaching practice. Certainly it is here (Sydney), with the additional constraint that the teacher, while explaining what is right, never mocks or humilitates in any way those who make mistakes.

[DundeeDancer]

Is that supposed to be a new, exciting innovation in ceroc teaching?

I thought it was standard teaching practice. Certainly it is here (Sydney), with the additional constraint that the teacher, while explaining what is right, never mocks or humilitates in any way those who make mistakes.

Well out the 15 lessons I've had 7 beginner and 8 intermediate. The teachers have never said anything on following, they just keep going on about having a strong lead. Thats fine for freestyle but in class when your just learning the lead is most likely going to be weak or non-existant so I think the followers in class should give the lead a bit more time to think and not just do something for the sake of doing something as that helps no one.

Just wanting some support from the forum that my thinking is right before I say something to the teacher, so then the teacher can say the right think to the class and then I can hopefully have a better learning experience in class.

[Twirly]

Well out the 15 lessons I've had 7 beginner and 8 intermediate. The teachers have never said anything on following, they just keep going on about having a strong lead. Thats fine for freestyle but in class when your just learning the lead is most likely going to be weak or non-existant so I think the followers in class should give the lead a bit more time to think and not just do something for the sake of doing something as that helps no one.

Just wanting some support from the forum that my thinking is right before I say something to the teacher, so then the teacher can say the right think to the class and then I can hopefully have a better learning experience in class.

DD – just be careful how you word this. Asking for help is one thing, criticising the teacher’s abilities, which is how this could come across, is another! And don’t forget, your teacher could well be on this forum, either an active poster, or a lurker.

I would suggest that you talk to the teacher about your experience and what you find difficult. Say that you find that follows are inclined to do what they think the teacher is telling them, rather than waiting for the lead from you. Ask if there is anything you can do about this. Then depending on the teachers response, maybe suggest, very gently, that it might be helpful for you for the teacher to say something to follows about being patient.

Also, you may find that there is a difference between the more and less experienced follows. When I first started intermediates, I used to think that I was supposed to do what the teacher said, rather than waiting for the lead always – and I used to get annoyed if I couldn’t get it, or my lead couldn’t. :mad: Learning how to be lead in class takes time and experience. There is another thread around here somewhere where timbp gave me some advice on how I follow in class, and how I can be of use to the less experienced lead. I had to go away and analyse what I was doing, as I think I’d become rather passive in class - now I seem to be of more help to leads. So do remember that not only are you learning to lead, but the follows are also learning to follow, often with very little advice (I’m lucky to have a female teacher, and I think that’s helped me). And then they need to learn to be helpful to the leads in the way that you are looking for.

Also, remember there is a big difference between a strong lead and a clear lead. A clear lead can be given with a flick of the wrist or one finger. Too strong lead will pull me off balance at the least, and cause me injury at the worst. A clear lead will be able to state their intentions to the follow cleanly and gently (and this is the sort of lead I love :drool: :respect:). That will come in time though. :nice:

[firefly]

~snip~ lots of good advice ~snip~

:yeah:
I couldn't have put it nearly as well as Twirly, but I'd definitely second her advice. It's very tempting to blame your partner/other people when something doesn't seem to be working; I know because I sometimes still have the same initial reaction before I stop and look at what I might/might not be doing that could be improved. A bit of understanding on all sides goes a long way :waycool::clap:

[timbp]

Just wanting some support from the forum that my thinking is right before I say something to the teacher, so then the teacher can say the right think to the class and then I can hopefully have a better learning experience in class.

I think my previous post was a bit patronising. I've been dancing long enough to know the teachers in Sydney and choose my classes, so it's a long time since I've had a class with a bad teacher (although they do exist here).
(On the other hand, as I wrote, what you asked for is pretty much standard in the classes I go to. That doesn't mean followers always follow, but it does mean teachers always tell followers to follow.)

I think there should not be a problem if you ask a teacher before the class to emphasise the role of the follower during the class.

But it is really in freestyle that you learn how to lead (and a woman learns how to follow) any particular move. The class gives you the shape of the move, let's you know where you have to move your body, where your partner's body needs to move.
In class she may well just step through the move, whatever you lead. But that teaches you where she is meant to be (assuming she is right in where she moves). Later, in freestyle, you can focus on how to make her move there.

Also, as you do more classes you willl get to know more partners. You'll soon find the ones you can ask to let you find your way through the move. During the rotation do what you can with the other partners, and look to the ones you trust to really help you.

And if a move goes wrong, dont' see it as a disaster. Just look at where you and your partner are, and keep dancing from that position.

[David Bailey]

I think the followers in class should give the lead a bit more time to think and not just do something for the sake of doing something as that helps no one.

Just wanting some support from the forum that my thinking is right before I say something to the teacher, so then the teacher can say the right think to the class and then I can hopefully have a better learning experience in class.
Mmmm, I'd also be dubious at your stage of suggesting "improvements", especially based on the waffle us lot come up with, at your stage. It also sounds like what you want is simply not what Ceroc does (or any MJ class, really), in terms of teaching people to follow.

[DundeeDancer]

Mmmm, I'd also be dubious at your stage of suggesting "improvements"

Yeah I am a bit nervous about saying anything. Thats why I'm bringing it up in the forum where I think...certainly hope!! I'm fairly anonymous...:whistle:

They always did say in the review classes, "any questions then just ask because someone else might have the exact same problem but might just be scared to say anything".

Still I feel I would be like the messenger who got shot.

As luck would have it I'll be down London next week so I will have the opertunity to try a different venue and see if they have a different approaches.

Also going to try a workshop when down, so think that will help me a good bit.

So it will be a while till my next regular class, maybe my feeling of having to say something will go away.


especially based on the waffle us lot come up with

Wafflle, I thought you guys were the experts with decades of experience :respect: I take everything you say as gospel :worthy:


It also sounds like what you want is simply not what Ceroc does (or any MJ class, really), in terms of teaching people to follow.
O wasn't timbp saying 5 posts earlier that "what I was asking for" is standard teaching practice in Sydney? Sounds like we need another opinion on that! Otherwise I've just found ANOTHER reason to emigrate.

[David Bailey]

Wafflle, I thought you guys were the experts with decades of experience
Decades of experience of waffling, definitely :grin:

[straycat]

Decades of experience of waffling, definitely :grin:

Sounds a bit like Twirly's desserting approach, but with maple syrup and waffles instead of chocolate sauce and strawberries, yes?

I assume this is a regional variation.

[spindr]

Just wanting some support from the forum that my thinking is right before I say something to the teacher, so then the teacher can say the right think to the class and then I can hopefully have a better learning experience in class.
:yeah:
There's no way you can learn to lead if the ladies won't let you -- so if the teacher's got any interest in teaching you how to lead well, then they need to explain that the ladies need to follow you (and in fact do the routine wrong if you lead it wrong).

SpinDr