How would you change Ceroc if you were the Boss

[Ghost]

Ok bear in mind this is people's livelihood so play nice..... :flower:

But hey, you never know, some of the ideas might inspire the powers that be :wink:
Take care,
Christopher

[ChrisA]

Ok bear in mind this is people's livelihood so play nice..... :flower:

But hey, you never know, some of the ideas might inspire the powers that be :wink:
Take care,
Christopher
Get rid of the semi-circle.

I can't understand why they haven't, since the current boss never taught it anyway. :confused:

[KatieR]

Get rid of the semi-circle.

:yeah: :clap:

They canned it in Australia too. :clap:

[David Bailey]

Oh, what a good idea for a thread :)

OK, three suggestions:

1. Standardised dancer development
Recognise that there are a large core of intermediate-plus dancers, almost all created by the Ceroc business, who are poorly-catered for, or who go elsewhere to develop. Create a standardised strategy to provide products and resources aimed at these dancers; a "career path" for them in effect. De-emphasize learning all the moves, and provide more emphasis on technique, for regular venues.

2. Diversify to other forms
Use the proven success of the Ceroc teaching model (i.e. moving on, taxi dancers, standardisation, etc), with adjustments, branching out to teach other dance forms. In fact, I suspect this may happen soon anyway - nosequins was an early attempt at this.

3. Names
Get rid of silly move names. 'Coz they're dumb. :whistle:

[Ghost]

Oh, what a good idea for a thread :)
What can I say, I was inspired :wink:


2. Diversify to other forms
And as if by magic....
http://www.ceroclondon.com/ballroom_latin.htm

How's that for a response from the powers that be? :whistle:

Oh and :yeah: to banning the semi-circle. :clap:

Take care,
Christopher

[TiggsTours]

I'd insist that everybody has to wear pink fluffy clothes, with silver sparkly shoes, and they all have to smile all the time. At the end of each class, I'd insist the everybody turned to the person on their right, kissed them on both cheeks and told them how fabulous they are. At the end of the night, everybody would have to stay for prayers, to thank the resident DJ (or god, as he would thereon be called) for a wonderful evening's entertainment.

:D

What can I say, its Friday, and I' haven't been allowed to dance all week!

:whistle:

Funky Lush on Saturday! :drool: :clap:

[David Bailey]

And as if by magic....
http://www.ceroclondon.com/ballroom_latin.htm

How's that for a response from the powers that be? :whistle:

Indeed, and that's what I meant with my comment

nosequins was an early attempt at this.
I'd love to see this continuing though, rather than just depending on one couple to run it. Surely there are more ballroom dancing teachers out there?

[fletch]

I'd insist that everybody has to wear pink fluffy clothes, with silver sparkly shoes, and they all have to smile all the time. At the end of each class, I'd insist the everybody turned to the person on their right, kissed them on both cheeks and told them how fabulous they are. At the end of the night, everybody would have to stay for prayers, to thank the resident DJ (or god, as he would thereon be called) for a wonderful evening's entertainment.

:D

What can I say, its Friday, and I' haven't been allowed to dance all week!

:whistle:

Funky Lush on Saturday! :drool: :clap:

I'm quite happy to share mine, but can I just establish which cheeks before I play:whistle:

:clap:

[Ghost]

Indeed, and that's what I meant with my comment

I'd love to see this continuing though, rather than just depending on one couple to run it. Surely there are more ballroom dancing teachers out there?

:blush: Opps, I read nosequins as one word like harlequins. Wondered what you were on about?

Sorry, good point. :cheers:

Christopher

[Paul F]

..... Surely there are more ballroom dancing teachers out there?

Loads but if they are anything like the ones I had they would refuse to teach such a big class. They didnt really like the idea of bulk tuition. I mentioned that I taught MJ to over 150 people every Wednesday. The first thing they said was
"how on earth can so many people learn in that environment"!
(then again, many of them didnt seem to like MJ)

I have found that with a fair number of ballroom teachers. :confused:

[Ghost]

Loads but if they are anything like the ones I had they would refuse to teach such a big class. They didnt really like the idea of bulk tuition.

I have found that with a fair number of ballroom teachers. :confused:

It depends
a) How exacting your art is
b) How protective of it you are

Some styles / teachers don't mind their students bouncing around, bashing each other, while ignoring the music :blush: . Others need to lie down in a quiet, darkened room at the mere suggestion :tears: .

Take care,
Christopher

[Lee]

Ok bear in mind this is people's livelihood so play nice..... :flower:

But hey, you never know, some of the ideas might inspire the powers that be :wink:
Take care,
Christopher

I assume you have some ideas as well, care to share them?

I will if you will :wink:

:cheers:

[Jenni]

Get rid of the semi-circle.

:yeah:

And getting the no bouncing idea over early on :nice:

Jenni :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Recognise that there are a large core of intermediate-plus dancers, almost all created by the Ceroc business, who are poorly-catered for, or who go elsewhere to develop.Is it really a large core, or is it just a small but very mouthy core most of whom are found on the Forum being so rude about Ceroc that there's really no incentive to do anything for them because they (at least sound like they) are too stuck-up to have anything to do with any orange-branded dance event?

By the way, did you notice that the Jive Bar on Wednesdays will have intermediate and advanced classes only from next year, and that Amir Giles was teaching for Ceroc at Fulham yesterday?

[Ghost]

I assume you have some ideas as well, care to share them?

I will if you will :wink:

:cheers:
"The map is not the territory" applies heavily to my ideas. They're all really starting places which would then need to be evolved when they met reality.

While I'm all for people making a living, I do view teaching as one of the sacred paths so I get grouchy about people calling themselves teachers and then not teaching.

But....

Change the whole format of teaching, especially beginners. Ladies learn how to follow. Period (as the americans say). They don't learn specific moves. Guys learn how to lead specific moves. I have some ideas how to do this, but they'd need some serious experimenting to get them to actually work - it's probably best if I never become a Taxi :blush:

Make more sense of the beginners / intermediate / advanced levels.

Specific themed classes on dance concepts - see Franck's latest idea

Safety - see Gus' posts. In particular drastically reduce the number of drops / dips that are taught in intermediate classes. Have taxi dancers keep an eye out for dangerous / inconsiderate dancers and have specific ISO 5000 method of dealing with them

Fence off seperate areas for "beginners only" and "people who want to practice aerials etc only"

Put limits on the class sizes based on the amount of space you have so that people aren't jammed in.

Teachers and demos must dance with the students in freestyle. Happy to give them a commensurate raise.

Free iced water

Pay taxi dancers (there's a trend here which will upset the economists, oh well)

Rip out the bad habits embedded in the moves

Higher standards for teachers and annual re-evaluation & random spot checks

Not bad for a beginning...

So what are your ideas?

Christopher

[Bangers & Mash]

Take it to Europe as well. :wink:

[Lee]

So what are your ideas?

Christopher

Offer more for beginners to encourage them to return, thus giving Ceroc their required sustained income rather than doing quick hit busking sessions when time are quieter.

Provide intermediates with more opportunity to learn, musicality, spatial awareness, style etc but not just by offering workshops at the weekend.

Advanced level classes where new intermediates & beginners don’t attend, oh they are starting this in Jan at Jive bar.

Hygiene & Safety reminders seem to have slipped away since I first started.

Put limits on the class sizes, yes I agree.

Free iced water – yes we’ve already debated this before.

I'll think about this a bit more.........

[Lee]

By the way, did you notice that the Jive Bar on Wednesdays will have intermediate and advanced classes only from next year?

Beat you to it :na:

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7027

[Lee]

By the way, did you notice that Amir Giles was teaching for Ceroc at Fulham yesterday?

Damm, if i'd known :tears:

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: Amir :drool: (in a non gay manner)

Lee

[TiggsTours]

Take it to Europe as well. :wink:
What, like France, Spain & Italy, you mean? Perhaps you'd think about going to the States after that?

[MartinHarper]

Shorter moves. Nothing over eight counts (16 beats)

More co-operation with competitors, where they are amenable to it.

"Martin's move".

[Ghost]

Shorter moves. Nothing over eight counts (16 beats)
:clap: Or at least only for the advanced


"Martin's move".
Which would be...?

(I'm picking up new moves left, right and centre here :cheers: )

Take care,
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

:clap: Or at least only for the advanced

Especially not for the advanced.

[David Bailey]

Is it really a large core, or is it just a small but very mouthy core
Well, Ceroc's been teaching, err, Ceroc, for 20+ years now. It makes sense that, over that time, the relative percentages (overall) of beginners vs. intermediates / advanced will have changed. Or at least, that there will be a core of experienced dancers.

How big that core is - who knows. Big enough to support a reasonably-active forum, at least, which you couldn't have said maybe 10 years ago. Big enough to support quite a few weekenders a year (there's what, 6 - 10 major weekenders annually now?). Certainly as big as the potential Ceroc market was 15-20 years ago...

Say there's 10,000 MJ dancers in the Greater London area (rough guess). There must be at least 1,000 experienced dancers out of that total, who'd be immediately interested in proper standard structured training "beyond intermediate" level.

And potentially, the 9,000 other dancers could also be interested given time.

Ceroc does a superb job of retaining beginners - I can't see how they can improve that area much more than they already do. So to me, now seems to be the time to focus on the undeveloped markets, that's where potential growth is. The only alternative is to lose that market to rivals (other dance forms, Jango etc.), and I can't see Ceroc too keen to give business to its competitors.

OK, it's all potential, and OK, I'm biased 'coz this is very much what I want for myself - but I also think that's what's happening already; from anecdotal evidence, there are lots of little tentative "advanced" classes springing up. It's what people want, the trick now is to develop a viable business model for it.


What, like France, Spain & Italy, you mean? Perhaps you'd think about going to the States after that?
:rofl: Whoa, let's not go crazy here...

[Ghost]

Especially not for the advanced.
I'm trying to think what moves I'd have to give up, but like Ducasi I sooo ignore the number of counts so I'm struggling :blush: . But I like the essence of your point.

I'd also like Ceroc to be more Gadgetised with the components taught and then shown how to string them together rather than the prefab versions we get. That would probably let me keep the moves I like too, within your framework.

Take care,
Christopher

[Lynn]

Take it to Europe as well. :wink:Bring it to Northern Ireland. :whistle: Oh yes, that's happening next year! :clap:

[Lynn]

... be more Gadgetised... :worthy: Great word!:rofl:

[ducasi]

I'm trying to think what moves I'd have to give up, but like Ducasi I sooo ignore the number of counts so I'm struggling :blush: . But I like the essence of your point. That's a cunning way to get me to post!

So let's look at this...

The longest, most complex moves taught to beginners (excluding the return on the end) (from what I can remember, or work out) never has anything above 8 counts, right?

I don't think anyone would have beginners learning longer moves. Anyone?

During intermediate class when long moves are taught, I either tend to break them into manageable bits that I can then choose to use or not, or else I just forget them.

So, I'd argue against teaching long moves to intermediates. (Though once broken up they're useful, so I'd not argue it strongly.)

But then there are some rather clever, complex moves which take forever to do – like some of the "mangle" moves.

If you can't teach them to beginners, and they're too complex for intermediates, then teaching them to advanced dancers is the only thing left.

OK, so some advanced dancers, as is fashionable round these parts, will tell you that they're only doing a limited set of fairly simple moves, just mixing them up in interesting ways... But these complex moves exist for a reason – because at some time someone created them to add to their dance. There must be people out there who appreciate being taught them.

I think that dancers planning to enter competitions would particularly like to learn them. (I wonder if this will draw the predicable response?)

[David Bailey]

But then there are some rather clever, complex moves which take forever to do – like some of the "mangle" moves.

If you can't teach them to beginners, and they're too complex for intermediates, then teaching them to advanced dancers is the only thing left.
Fair enough - they do have their place, and learning sequence-type moves can be useful. For example, if you can lead the man and lady Tunnel, in succession, that teaches you a lot about how to lead without using force - because you don't have the leverage to use force. Similarly, First Move tango ocho thingy - it's impossible to force a lady to do a backwards ocho, it has to be led.

But "teaching complex moves" is pretty much the only thing that most "advanced" classes do now - that's probably one reason why people whinge so much about them.


I think that dancers planning to enter competitions would particularly like to learn them. (I wonder if this will draw the predicable response?)
No, I've no problem with learning complex moves. But if I were boss (going back on-topic), I'd want to try to change the "move monster" mentality of most advanced classes, to say "look, there's much more to it than moves, OK?" as part of a standard curriculum.

So a standard advanced class could have just one move, either complex or simple, then break down that move. explore variations, demonstrate good and bad leading techniques, and so on.

[Dizzy]

What, like France, Spain & Italy, you mean? Perhaps you'd think about going to the States after that?

I was actually speaking to a guy last week who owns a Ceroc franchise in New York :eek: .

[ducasi]

...

But "teaching complex moves" is pretty much the only thing that most "advanced" classes do now - that's probably one reason why people whinge so much about them.

...

No, I've no problem with learning complex moves. But if I were boss (going back on-topic), I'd want to try to change the "move monster" mentality of most advanced classes, to say "look, there's much more to it than moves, OK?" as part of a standard curriculum.

So a standard advanced class could have just one move, either complex or simple, then break down that move. explore variations, demonstrate good and bad leading techniques, and so on.I agree with you, but besides the tricky move of the week, what else would you teach advanced dancers that they don't already know?

You've also got the problem that many advanced dancers are going to be as good as, or better than the person trying to teach them. There aren't enough really great teachers to teach a broad-spectrum advanced class in every Ceroc venue.

[David Bailey]

I agree with you, but besides the tricky move of the week, what else would you teach advanced dancers that they don't already know?
God, I wouldn't know where to begin listing the stuff they don't teach in Ceroc regular classes, but off the top of my head:
- Frame and hold
- Compression
- Anatomy (yes, seriously!)
- Top 10 leading mistakes
- etc.

i.e. a lot of the stuff Franck's doing in his special style and technique classes, but done as standard.

And again, I think this is already happening, but I'd like to see more of it, more standardised, and more transparent - i.e. doing it the Ceroc Way, rather than individual teachers / franchisees taking it on themselves to advance the classes.


You've also got the problem that many advanced dancers are going to be as good as, or better than the person trying to teach them. There aren't enough really great teachers to teach a broad-spectrum advanced class in every Ceroc venue.
Well, so what? The teachers don't have to be better dancers than the students, they just have to be able to teach. I'm sure many of the students in your average intermediate class are better dancers than the teachers, but they get enough out of it.

And advanced students should be (hotshots aside) more able to grasp advanced concepts - in fact, that's almost the definition of an advanced student...

[ChrisA]

Well, so what? The teachers don't have to be better dancers than the students, they just have to be able to teach.
Even if this is true, I think you missed Ducasi's other point which was that


There aren't enough really great teachers to teach a broad-spectrum advanced class in every Ceroc venue.
Do you not agree with this?


And advanced students should be more able to grasp advanced concepts
And although this is certainly true, there is a certain credibility gap in the cases where teachers are attempting to teach advanced concepts, while clearly not really getting it right, or being able to demonstrate the point they're making, clearly and consistently.

Of course it's true that the more advanced the student, the more able he or she will be to extract learning from poor teaching, but that's not a good basis for establishing widespread teaching that's billed as advanced.

[ducasi]

God, I wouldn't know where to begin listing the stuff they don't teach in Ceroc regular classes, but off the top of my head:
- Frame and hold
- Compression
- Anatomy (yes, seriously!)
- Top 10 leading mistakes
- etc.

i.e. a lot of the stuff Franck's doing in his special style and technique classes, but done as standard. Much of this stuff belongs in intermediate or even beginners' classes – as an advanced dancer you've already learnt or figured out a lot of it.

The only thing in your list that I think is exclusively an advanced topic is anatomy – a very good suggestion.

And again, I think this is already happening, but I'd like to see more of it, more standardised, and more transparent - i.e. doing it the Ceroc Way, rather than individual teachers / franchisees taking it on themselves to advance the classes. And maybe not just to advanced dancers?

Well, so what? The teachers don't have to be better dancers than the students, they just have to be able to teach. I'm sure many of the students in your average intermediate class are better dancers than the teachers, but they get enough out of it. Then why then do the students and organisers pay the big bucks to get the best teachers/dancers at workshops?

Are we paying for the name or the talent?

[David Bailey]

Even if this is true, I think you missed Ducasi's other point which was that


There aren't enough really great teachers to teach a broad-spectrum advanced class in every Ceroc venue.
Do you not agree with this?

I do indeed - and that's why I want resources put into this - e.g. a CTA-like teacher training programme which doesn't just focus on complex moves - leading to standardisation of this type of thing. Which was why I may have mentioned standardisation once or twice.

I'm not (quite) dumb enough to believe it's as simple as setting up a time slot in each class for "advanced class" and saying to the teacher "OK, teach advanced now".

Like dancing, no-one starts off as an "advanced teacher" - that's where training and of course discipline comes in. But if I were boss, I'd put resources to support and promote such teacher-training, in order to create a standard system. Did I mention that before? :innocent:


Much of this stuff belongs in intermediate or even beginners' classes – as an advanced dancer you've already learnt or figured out a lot of it.
Hmmm, I'm not so sure - I wouldn't have been able to define this list, say, a couple of years ago and that was after quite a few years' dancing. Again, don't assume the Forum is representative of even experienced dancers; most of them just make it up as they go along in MJ.

I believe there's a market for this sort of thing - dunno whether you'd call it "advanced", admittedly, that has connotations. Maybe "back to basics", or "Doing it right" :)


Then why then do the students and organisers pay the big bucks to get the best teachers/dancers at workshops?
I've desperately tried biting my lip to avoid mentioning hype, but couldn't... :blush:

[Ghost]

One distinct benefit of teaching even say framework for a whole advanced class is that the students can really focus on it and ignore the whole "where does my left hand go now?" feeling. It's the "There's always deeper levels" thing. I'm amazed at people dropping the beginners' classes or just walking through them in a daze. It's a great opportunity to practice 'advanced' concepts. And you often get much clearer indications from beginners because the move will noticably flow better when you get a better grasp of the concept.

I agree with the pitfalls inherent in teaching advanced classes doing this though.

Take care,
Christopher

[ducasi]

Hmmm, I'm not so sure - I wouldn't have been able to define this list, say, a couple of years ago and that was after quite a few years' dancing. Again, don't assume the Forum is representative of even experienced dancers; most of them just make it up as they go along in MJ. I'm definitely not "advanced", but I have a basic understanding of all the concepts you list except anatomy, and I don't know what the "top 10" leading mistakes are. Maybe once I have a much better understanding of them I might be able to call myself "advanced".

I believe there's a market for this sort of thing - dunno whether you'd call it "advanced", admittedly, that has connotations. Maybe "back to basics", or "Doing it right" :) See, this is the thing... It's about the advanced mentality. Would people who consider themselves to be advanced feel that they need to go to a class called any of these things? Aren't both your suggested titles asking people to admit their failings before they can attend?

In my little niche of my profession, I have "advanced" knowledge. I wouldn't be interested in any training course which doesn't make it clear it's targeting me. Strangely enough there aren't many of them. This is probably because the holes in my knowledge are unusual to me, and probably also blind to me.

The ones I do see I sometimes wonder who they are actually targeting when they use the word "advanced"? Real advanced people, or wannabes?

Back to dance classes... There definitely is a market for "advanced" classes, but I'm not sure it's in truly advanced dancers. It's in people who've got bored with the intermediate classes but want to improve their dancing. Or maybe that's what people mean when they say "advanced"?

[MartinHarper]

The ones I do see I sometimes wonder who they are actually targeting when they use the word "advanced"? Real advanced people, or wannabes?

In this context, I think folks are asking for "advanced" classes that teach stuff that's more advanced than Ceroc intermediate classes. Advanced in a relative sense, not an absolute sense. Something slightly more sophisticated than "FUN!".


then there are some rather clever, complex moves which take forever to do – like some of the "mangle" moves.

Yeah, but I think they look ugly. Much as I appreciate tying a woman up with her own arms in other ways, it doesn't look much like dancing.

[ducasi]

In this context, I think folks are asking for "advanced" classes that teach stuff that's more advanced than Ceroc intermediate classes. Advanced in a relative sense, not an absolute sense. Something slightly more sophisticated than "FUN!". So that's not classes for advanced dancers, it's just more advanced classes.

OK, that's cool, but I thought we were talking about classes for advanced dancers?

Yeah, but I think they look ugly. Much as I appreciate tying a woman up with her own arms in other ways, it doesn't look much like dancing. I agree entirely.

[David Bailey]

I'm definitely not "advanced", but I have a basic understanding of all the concepts you list except anatomy, and I don't know what the "top 10" leading mistakes are. Maybe once I have a much better understanding of them I might be able to call myself "advanced".
See, this is why I hate using the word "advanced", it's so connotation-heavy. I can live with "experienced", but "advanced", no-one seems to have a clear definition of what this means, it's so subjective.

So can we avoid the A word?

[robd]

I'm amazed at people dropping the beginners' classes or just walking through them in a daze. It's a great opportunity to practice 'advanced' concepts. And

Different debate I guess but is it more useful to beginners if an advanced/intermediate/experienced dancer follows the move in beginner's class exactly as the teacher is teaching it or as they believe it could/should be done? For example, I always use my right hand on the ladies left shoulder blade during a first move when turning my partner out. Ceroc gospel is hand to waist. I probably end up doing a bizarre mix of both during beginner's class but in freestyle I always, always use the shoulder blade (as I suspect do many leaders). Would it be more useful to show beginners what they can expect to experience in freestyle or just to go with what the teacher is showing up on stage??

Robert

[robd]

See, this is why I hate using the word "advanced", it's so connotation-heavy. I can live with "experienced", but "advanced", no-one seems to have a clear definition of what this means, it's so subjective.

So can we avoid the A word?

I attended an intermediate-improvers workshop a while back. I was told it used to be advertised as an Advanced workshop but no-one would sign up as they thought it would be beyond them.

Robert

[Ghost]

Different debate I guess but is it more useful to beginners if an advanced/intermediate/experienced dancer follows the move in beginner's class exactly as the teacher is teaching it or as they believe it could/should be done?
Robert
:yeah: Good question. :cheers:

In particular do you do the dreaded "semi-circle and step back"?

I think in fairness, it's not my class, I'm not teaching so I won't mess with the set-up.

There's enough to take in as a beginner without having to deal with strange variations too.

If I'm good enough to do variations, I'm good enough to do the moves "to the letter" without it affecting my dancing.

However, when I realise I'm partnered with an intermediate in beginners class or vice versa, then yes, variations are good :clap:

I don't think there's any harm in doing 'invisible' differences with a beginner though ie things which are subtle enough that they won't notice.

As for freestyle, Sometimes it's kinder to do the moves "to the letter" with beginners until they relax a bit more / get more experience.

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

I attended an intermediate-improvers workshop a while back. I was told it used to be advertised as an Advanced workshop but no-one would sign up as they thought it would be beyond them.

Robert
So why focus on the level of dancer, if that's problematic?

Why not focus on the topic being discussed primarily, and put a "this is aimed at experienced dancers" bit in the description?

[ChrisA]

See, this is why I hate using the word "advanced", it's so connotation-heavy. I can live with "experienced", but "advanced", no-one seems to have a clear definition of what this means, it's so subjective.
"Experienced" does not mean "good", though. It might be "dreadful".

[David Bailey]

"Experienced" does not mean "good", though. It might be "dreadful".
Oh sure, and in my case it probably does.

But at least it's not subjective, and you're not asking dancers to attempt to rate themselves - which, in Ceroc, has always been historically problematic, I guess everyone's too modest or something.

(Contrast with salsa, where I think they assume you're advanced if you can master a cross-body lead sometimes... :rolleyes: )

Putting a bit of text in the relevant flyers saying "This is for experienced dancers, who want to learn more technique, blah..." means that you can explain what you mean, and also that "experienced / advanced" is not the first thing people see; the topic is the first thing.

[ChrisA]

"This is for experienced dancers, who want to learn more technique, blah..." means that you can explain what you mean, and also that "experienced / advanced" is not the first thing people see; the topic is the first thing.
I've come across plenty of people that would have benefited from an advanced workshop a week after they started.

And plenty of experienced dancers that have (in the absence of a serious attitude readjustment) reached their ceiling, and who are incapable of taking in new material, because of their entrenched attitudes and unwillingness to listen to or recognise feedback.

I agree that "advanced" is an imperfect term at best, and at worst, plain divisive, but "experienced" is just meaningless.

So I'd rather work on defining "advanced" than count years that often mean nothing.

[MartinHarper]

"experienced" is just meaningless

I agree that experience is no guarantee of ability, though there is some correlation. So I wouldn't advertise a class that required "at least six weeks experience" (eg) in the hope of achieving a minimum ability level.
On the other hand, "at least six weeks experience" would allow the teacher to say things like "lead a first move push spin", and get something resembling a first move push spin, rather than a blank look. This can then be used to teach more advanced concepts, without having to start from first principles.
Experience also gives an idea of how much baggage the students will come with. A class for folks with no experience can zip along quite quickly. A class for folks with years of experience will normally grind down in fixing lots of hideous bad habits and suchlike.


There are plenty of experienced dancers that have (in the absence of a serious attitude readjustment) reached their ceiling, and who are incapable of taking in new material, because of their entrenched attitudes and unwillingness to listen to or recognise feedback.

Sure, but you can keep them away easily enough with labels like "fundamentals" or "back to basics". Or just run your workshop against one entitled "Lickable Leans, Devilish Dips, and Smoochy Seducers".

[Ghost]

Haven't a clue how the economics would work, but 'by invitation only' for whatever you want to call advanced classes?

Or must be vetted by the people sitting at the front of the stage first....:whistle:

A more formal ranking system would be interesting, but a whole basket of monkeys' worth of problems to sort out.

Or..... you could get really good teachers who would use such simple techniques to demonstrate the concepts that beginners could attend and move monsters won't want to. :worthy:

Always had trouble with advanced = complicated. Surely advanced = simple?

(Arrrghh the drawbacks of the English language :tears: . Shibumi. If you know what it means great. If not, oh well, simple will have to do :blush: )

Take care,
Christopher

[Jeremy]

Always had trouble with advanced = complicated. Surely advanced = simple?


I think its more advanced = makes it look simple

[TiggsTours]

I was actually speaking to a guy last week who owns a Ceroc franchise in New York :eek: .
I know, I was being ironic.:confused:

[David Bailey]

I know, I was being ironic.:confused:
Maybe we need an irony icon, wouldn't that be ironic?

BTW, when you said

What, like France, Spain & Italy, you mean? Perhaps you'd think about going to the States after that?
Wasn't aware of Spain - is that a new one? And you missed out UAE as well in your list...

So far, then, that's:
- Britain
- N.I. (next year)
- France
- Italy
- USA
- Australia
- NZ
- UAE
- Spain (?)

Any countries I've missed out?

[TiggsTours]

Maybe we need an irony icon, wouldn't that be ironic?

BTW, when you said

Wasn't aware of Spain - is that a new one? And you missed out UAE as well in your list...

So far, then, that's:
- Britain
- N.I. (next year)
- France
- Italy
- USA
- Australia
- NZ
- UAE
- Spain (?)

Any countries I've missed out?
I didn't mention UAE because whoever I was quoting (can't remember, sorry) had said they would take it to Europe, and UAE isn't in Europe, I also didn't mention Aus or NZ. I only mentioned the European countries its currently in, or moving to (sorry, missed NI), and the States as thats the next one its moving to.

As for Spain, this programme that the BBC has been invading our dance space to film for is all about the launch of Ceroc in Spain.

[Lynn]

...(sorry, missed NI)..., How could you? :tears:

:clap: :clap: I'm getting excited. I've been waiting for a proper regular night for 2 years (since I first saw MJ). At last when people say 'where do you dance' I will be able to say 'Belfast' (instead of having to try to explain over and over again about no venues..). A regular class! Dancing every week! Proper freestyles! OK, I'll shut up now.

[Ghost]

I think its more advanced = makes it look simple
That's definitely part of it. :clap:

Most advanced concepts can be expressed in a single sentence. A lot can be expressed in a single word. It's the experimenting with them and understanding all the nuances wihich takes the time, but I don't believe that the process has to be either difficult or complicated. It can be, but that's the whole point of a teacher ( to make it easy, not complicated :whistle: )

Be Well,
Christopher

[Chicklet]

Wasn't aware of Spain - is that a new one?
my ma and pa winter in Spain and attend a regular class....they have, however, noticed that it is the teachers who are orange, rather than the logo, so perhaps it's some kind of knock off??:eek:

[Gadget]

Change the whole format of teaching, especially beginners. Ladies learn how to follow. Period (as the americans say). They don't learn specific moves. Guys learn how to lead specific moves. I have some ideas how to do this, but they'd need some serious experimenting to get them to actually work - it's probably best if I never become a Taxi :blush:
No; for ladys to learn how to follow, they have to know where they should be when they get a specific lead - how can they know that if they are not learning the move? For guys to lead, they need a follower to be able to lead and knows where they should be so that they can correct the lead to compensate.
Asside from that, how could you do this and keep interest?

Make more sense of the beginners / intermediate / advanced levels. there is no sense to them: there is "beginner" where you don't know how to lead/follow. There is then "improver" where you learn how to listen, move to the music, lead, follow, and execute some more moves. Is there anything after that? You can improve in many, many, many, many different directions, and no two people will follow the same path.
Should specific workshops require prior knowledge?


specific themed classes on dance concepts - see Franck's latest ideahappening now, happens on just about every "special" weekend. Workshops where there is a closer enviroment for stuff to be taught.


Safety - see Gus' posts. In particular drastically reduce the number of drops / dips that are taught in intermediate classes. Have taxi dancers keep an eye out for dangerous / inconsiderate dancers and have specific ISO 5000 method of dealing with them :confused: If you havn't heard it, you weren't listening. I don't know of any teachers that fail to give safety advice before doing these moves. Any specialist workshops concentrating on them normally devote a large chunk of time to safety. What more could be done?


Fence off seperate areas for "beginners only" and "people who want to practice aerials etc only":what: Nooooooo!!!! beginners will only improve by dancing with more experianced dancers. More experianced dancers should be able to improve by dancing with beginners. Why segregate? The only difference between a beginner and yourself is knowledge - you don't corral the ignorant and lable them 'dumb'.
As to the "people who want to practive aerials" - they should arrive early, stay late or find a private studio/venue rather than dissrupt a normal night. I think that most folks do. If they want to practice, don't fence off a valuable peice of dance-floor real-estate for them - let them find space themselves.


Put limits on the class sizes based on the amount of space you have so that people aren't jammed in. better: live feed from cameras to screens further back. Not sure I agree with limits either; if you turn down a new face, what's the likleyhood of them coming back?


Teachers and demos must dance with the students in freestyle. Happy to give them a commensurate raise. must? Most do this for the love of it and do anyway - I don't think that this even needs to be stated.


Free iced waterBar staff are paid hourly - they select a glass, fill it, add ice, and collect the glasses after you are finished. You are using a little bit of their time - is it so much hardship to pay them for it?


Pay taxi dancers (there's a trend here which will upset the economists, oh well)Payment in terms of what? they get benifits that, if equated to a fiscal sum, would be quite generous!


Rip out the bad habits embedded in the moves like? how?


Higher standards for teachers and annual re-evaluation & random spot checksHigher than what? what is being done poorly that needs addressed? There is an anual meeting of (Ceroc) teachers... with (fairly) regular updates and sharing of ideas. Each franchisee I assume knows the teachers under their umbrella - what would/could 'spot checks' reveal that they would be unaware of?


The original question: advertising. But it's a big outley with no guarantee on return.
I would also put together a "cabaret" team and 'teaching' squad of taxis and dancers that could be used for corporate events, games, gatherings, exhabitions, etc. (any event that there is a "stall" or "marquee") Like a more structured busk - on stage. Perhaps with a short class and cabaret spot in amoung some freestyle. Perhaps a tie-in with local radio stations to provide some sounds and share the costs.

[bigdjiver]

One of the first steps I would make would be to try and understand my customers better. The vast majority of the populace has almost no experience of dance classes. There are some that have tried other dance classes and then try MJ. Knowing how well Ceroc appeals to those two categories is fundamental. The membership form does not ask about previous experience. The membership form does not even ask if you have previously been a member of Ceroc. As a result it is impossible to determine accurately how well Ceroc appeals to each category of "new" member. Comparisons between venues, policies and personnel are subject to unnecessary error. Ceroc cannot answer funamental questions like "How many members do you have?". They can say how many membership cards they have sold, but so many people have two or more, and an unknown number of those are not identified. Ceroc really should be able to tell, accurately, what their retention rate of complete novices is, and how successful they are in converting dancers from other styles. They should be able to compare venues, and learn from the successful, and provide training to those falling behind. Some of the huge advantages a large organisation has is being able to collect a large amount of significant customer data, and in being able to exploit it widely, and the ability to disperse the costs of learning from it widely.

[Ghost]

:wink: See, I said my ideas would need to change when faced with reality


No; for ladys to learn how to follow, they have to know where they should be when they get a specific lead
:confused: Lost me there. Can't follow be taught abstractly without specific moves? I lead like this and you move like that - backwards, forwards, turns, moving arms. Basically teaching frame.


For guys to lead, they need a follower to be able to lead and knows where they should be so that they can correct the lead to compensate.
Ok I've got to be reading this wrong because it sounds like you're advocating the follow backleading if she thinks the lead isn't leading properly. :confused:


Asside from that, how could you do this and keep interest?
Ah now we agree again. It's a good question. Don't know.


there is no sense to them:
Well I'd at least make this clearer then


Should specific workshops require prior knowledge?
Good question. I think the word is specific. It appears that all advanced workshops at the moment require prior knowledge. I think that having some that don't would be a good thing - but it's just a thought.


:confused: If you havn't heard it, you weren't listening.
Hmm, I don't think my hearing's that bad that I'd keep missing something I was actually listening for.


I don't know of any teachers that fail to give safety advice before doing these moves.
My point is more the ability of Ceroc students to ignore the advice. Limit the dips / drops to a few safer ones that would also repeat more often and so hopefully be safer.


Any specialist workshops concentrating on them normally devote a large chunk of time to safety. What more could be done?
Ah now workshops are a different animal I'll grant you. :cheers:


:what: Nooooooo!!!! beginners will only improve by dancing with more experianced dancers. More experianced dancers should be able to improve by dancing with beginners. Why segregate? The only difference between a beginner and yourself is knowledge - you don't corral the ignorant and lable them 'dumb'.
The good news is I agree, just expressed it badly. Experienced dancers would be encouraged to dance with the beginners, it's just that there would be a safer area to do it in and everyone would know where they stood. I've seen the idea used in Ice Rinks. Someone (sorry can't remember who you were :flower: ) mentioned beginners stickers as a simialr idea. I think people have also mentioned that there's usually a quieter area of the dancefloor (away from the stage) where it's safer to dance with beginners. (Well safer to dance period)


As to the "people who want to practive aerials" - they should arrive early, stay late or find a private studio/venue rather than dissrupt a normal night. I think that most folks do. If they want to practice, don't fence off a valuable peice of dance-floor real-estate for them - let them find space themselves.
Yep that's better. I let economics cloud my judgement. No aerials on the dance-floor. Actually I disagree with the come early / stay late approach, but would like to know why I'm wrong. I've watched people practicing aerials they obviously haven't got the hang of unaided on a wooden floor. This seems like a truly bad idea to me. What am I missing?


better: live feed from cameras to screens further back.
Cool


Not sure I agree with limits either; if you turn down a new face, what's the likleyhood of them coming back?
Catch 22. Ceroc seems to have a really high turnover of people. I'd rather try and hang onto the ones I've got, but I might be climbing the wrong mountain. It would certainly be more pleasant if the numbers were limited.


must? Most do this for the love of it and do anyway - I don't think that this even needs to be stated.
I was expecting the opposite response to this idea. There's a thread somewhere basically saying that down South a lot of teachers don't do this (matches my experience). Sassenachs - whatcha gonna do? I would add though that this is in addition to everything else. ie they'd be dancing with a smaller number of people who were hopefully more considerate, better trained dancers - oh and be paid more for it too.


Bar staff are paid hourly - they select a glass, fill it, add ice, and collect the glasses after you are finished. You are using a little bit of their time - is it so much hardship to pay them for it?
Ah you're a gentlemen. not everyone sees it that way though and I think the extra PR would be worth it. But then I don't drink water anyway....


Payment in terms of what? they get benifits that, if equated to a fiscal sum, would be quite generous!
deja vu - conversation with someone else about 'helpers'. Yeah I'd forgotten about the taxman. :blush:


Higher than what?
The norm.

what is being done poorly that needs addressed?
That's what the checks would find out. It's more about keeping things running smoothly.


Each franchisee I assume knows the teachers under their umbrella - what would/could 'spot checks' reveal that they would be unaware of?
Personally I'd like to be aware of what someone under my umbrealla was doing on a regular basis.


The original question: advertising. But it's a big outley with no guarantee on return.
I would also put together a "cabaret" team and 'teaching' squad of taxis and dancers that could be used for corporate events, games, gatherings, exhabitions, etc. (any event that there is a "stall" or "marquee") Like a more structured busk - on stage. Perhaps with a short class and cabaret spot in amoung some freestyle. Perhaps a tie-in with local radio stations to provide some sounds and share the costs.
Intersting ideas :clap:

Be Well,
Christopher

[Missy D]

If I have repeated anything said on the thread I apologise but, my computer is having a breakdown and keeps switching itself off:-

First thing I would do in a lesson is a 5 minute warm up with small stretches. Sometimes i find i am so stiff after travelling or going dancing straight from work that i really need to this. After all we wouldnt go to the gym and jump on the tread mill at full speed without warming up. Ceroc is some peoples only form of excersize.

The next thing i would have both the teacher and the demonstrator with microphones. I have watched many lessons over the past year and it seems that where the lady teaches the women learning the lesson pick it up but the men do not and visa versa. I used to go to Victor and Lydias lessons and both used to demonstrate everything from positioning of feet to the style of hands. There was hardly anyone that didnt understand the lesson. I went to Ceroc last night and spent time with 2 men walking through moves. Clearly the lesson taught did not demonstrate stepping back which is important and gripping the ladies hand. The lady that teaches at this venue, teaches well, if you are a lady but, her demonstrator needs to be able to show the men more.

I would also change the colour of the taxi dancers t shirts as I couldnt find one taxi dancer myself last night to help these men. Everyone wears black these days. Does Ceroc not realise this.

I could go on and on..

[David Bailey]

Re: specialist classes:

happening now, happens on just about every "special" weekend. Workshops where there is a closer enviroment for stuff to be taught.
I'm going to be heretical here and say that I've not learnt anything life-changing at a weekender class, despite the A-list teachers - how could you, with 200+ other people in the class? It's actually amazing that you can even learn a new move in that environment...

Come on Minnie, where's this advanced weekender?

Re: water:

Bar staff are paid hourly - they select a glass, fill it, add ice, and collect the glasses after you are finished. You are using a little bit of their time - is it so much hardship to pay them for it?
For me, it's not so much the money as the quality - e.g. at Ashtons, you pay £1 for a glass of tepid water. At Hammersmith, you have to queue for, well, ever. Free water is appearing more and more at venues, and I think that's a good thing. I buy other soft drinks, and I've no problems with paying a "water surcharge", but I don't want to queue or to be ripped-off.

Re: taxi / demo "remuneration":

Payment in terms of what? they get benifits that, if equated to a fiscal sum, would be quite generous!
As we've discussed before, some do, some don't. Some get the soon-to-be-phased out Admit Ones, some just get free entry to that venue.

And an Admit One voucher (value, £7?), is not a huge amount of pay for 2+ hours' work. Assuming a cash equivalent of maybe £5, it's even less.

[ducasi]

First thing I would do in a lesson is a 5 minute warm up with small stretches. Sometimes i find i am so stiff after travelling or going dancing straight from work that i really need to this. After all we wouldnt go to the gym and jump on the tread mill at full speed without warming up. Ceroc is some peoples only form of excersize. Doesn't your Ceroc class do a "Ceroc Essentials" warm-up?

The next thing i would have both the teacher and the demonstrator with microphones. ... No, the teacher's job is to teach, the demo is there simply as a body. Only when both people are teachers should both teach.

I would also change the colour of the taxi dancers t shirts ... what colour do you fancy? Orange? :D

[Missy D]

Doesn't your Ceroc class do a "Ceroc Essentials" warm-up?
No!

No, the teacher's job is to teach, the demo is there simply as a body. Only when both people are teachers should both teach.
Yes but if the teacher is clearly not showing what the demo is doing then the lesson is badly taught. Maybe the lady teacher should also show the mans part (no rude jokes please) and visa versa. Watch a lesson and maybe you will see what I mean.

what colour do you fancy? Orange? :D
Any colour just not black!

Also taxi dancers! Do they go on a training workshops?

[TiggsTours]

Also taxi dancers! Do they go on a training workshops?

Different franchises work in different ways.

When I first started taxiing, many moons ago, our franchise did try to start off a training course for taxi dancers, I think we all met twice, and it was really helpful, but not any more. There has been talk of starting it up again, over the years, but nothing's ever happened.

I do think taxi dancers should do a training course, and they should also go on a refresher course once a year. Things have changed so much since I first started taxiing, and I've seen so many taxi dancers who start for all the wrong reasons, doing a course first would show a dedication to the role, not just a dedication to lots of free dances!

The other night I saw a new male taxi dancer standing right next to a whole table of beginner girls, he'd just finished dancing with a good dancer, and was looking round for another one, in the end, Dale asked each of them to dance, I would too, if they'd known me as a taxi dancer (even though it was my night off), but it doesn't get taken too kindly by some girls being asked to dance by another girl she doesn't know, so it was difficult. If this guy had been through a training course, it would have shown he had genuine reasons for wanting to be a taxi dancer, there are alot who do it now as some type of status symbol thing!

[Missy D]

Different franchises work in different ways.

When I first started taxiing, many moons ago, our franchise did try to start off a training course for taxi dancers, I think we all met twice, and it was really helpful, but not any more. There has been talk of starting it up again, over the years, but nothing's ever happened.

I do think taxi dancers should do a training course, and they should also go on a refresher course once a year. Things have changed so much since I first started taxiing, and I've seen so many taxi dancers who start for all the wrong reasons, doing a course first would show a dedication to the role, not just a dedication to lots of free dances!

there are alot who do it now as some type of status symbol thing!

I agree there should be a training course. There is one woman that is so bad at showing the beginners moves (I think you may know who i mean). This woman bounces so badly yanking the men around. She also dances with her elbows out which i have felt many a time in my back and head.

I am sure that some people use the taxi t shirt as a pulling device. and like you say a status symbol thing. Dont get me wrong there are many good taxi dancers around..

[ducasi]

Yes but if the teacher is clearly not showing what the demo is doing then the lesson is badly taught. Maybe the lady teacher should also show the mans part (no rude jokes please) and visa versa. Watch a lesson and maybe you will see what I mean. You're right – if the teacher is not clearly instructing both males and females then they are not doing their job properly. The demo probably may not have sufficient experience taking the opposite role, and so the teacher should not swap around as a matter of course. It can also be confusing, rather than helpful.

As a beginner almost all my teaching came from a lady teacher, and she very rarely had to take the man's part to teach a move (she does more often in the intermediate class.) She normally has a pretty good demo, so that probably helps.

[David Bailey]

No, the teacher's job is to teach, the demo is there simply as a body. Only when both people are teachers should both teach.
Yes, I think this is sensible for MJ teaching, in the most part, simply because the relevant moves / footwork are usually easy enough so that the teacher can describe it from both sides - in fact, that's most of what Ceroc teachers learn in their training I believe, to be able to describe these.

However, I don't think it works so well for other dance forms, or when you're teaching more complex moves, or more advanced concepts - in these cases, it's very helpful for both the man and the woman to run through each component.

Re: taxi training:

I do think taxi dancers should do a training course, and they should also go on a refresher course once a year.
Absolutely :yeah: - this is crucial. I can't believe I forgot this originally - if I were boss, I'd implement the whole "stretch limo" super-taxi thing I occasionally bang on about - i.e. taxi dancers for the intermediate and advanced classes, with more training and greater experience.

As a bonus, this would also offer a bit of a "career path" for taxi dancers.


there are alot who do it now as some type of status symbol thing!
Nothing new there - hell, there are a lot of male ceroc teachers to whom the status symbol thing is one of the main motivations. But I agree that a bit more vetting and training might help weed some of the glamour-boys out :)

[TiggsTours]

I agree there should be a training course. There is one woman that is so bad at showing the beginners moves (I think you may know who i mean). This woman bounces so badly yanking the men around. She also dances with her elbows out which i have felt many a time in my back and head.

I am sure that some people use the taxi t shirt as a pulling device. and like you say a status symbol thing. Dont get me wrong there are many good taxi dancers around..
Think I might have a vague idea, yes!

[dee]

I do think taxi dancers should do a training course, and they should also go on a refresher course once a year. Things have changed so much since I first started taxiing, and I've seen so many taxi dancers who start for all the wrong reasons, doing a course first would show a dedication to the role, not just a dedication to lots of free dances!


I'm with you on this one, i did taxiing a few years back, i was given a sheet of all the moves to practise at home which was very difficult trying out moves on a 6 year old :sad: i would of rather had gone to a training course so i knew what i was doing properly rather than make a fool of myself in front of beginners. I did get most of them in the end but unfortunately the venue closed down maybe it was me :blush: hope not

[dee]

There is one woman that is so bad at showing the beginners moves (I think you may know who i mean). This woman bounces so badly yanking the men around. She also dances with her elbows out which i have felt many a time in my back and head.


Are we talking about the "chicken" woman with the flappy wings, legs everywhere and bounces

[Missy D]

Are we talking about the "chicken" woman with the flappy wings, legs everywhere and bounces

Clearly she must be there as an example on how not to dance Ceroc:rofl:

[dee]

Clearly she must be there as an example on how not to dance Ceroc:rofl:

She has to be the worst i have seen, makes mothball man and corpse look fantastic maybe ceroc should ask them :whistle:

[Missy D]

And Mr Harper if you have anything to say on this then say it! Dont just bad rep!:devil:

[Will]

And Mr Harper if you have anything to say on this then say it! Dont just bad rep!:devil:
Don't forget to vote HarperLink (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6705&page=4&highlight=martin+harper)

[TiggsTours]

And Mr Harper if you have anything to say on this then say it! Dont just bad rep!:devil:
:yeah: Not that I've had any, but I've given you some positive rep, to counterbalance, for your honesty.:worthy:

[Ghost]

Hmm, how about both the demo and teacher are trained teachers and so both have mikes? I've seen that work.

(And the costs keep rising)

Just as an aside regarding my other thoughts.
a.) They're motivated strongly by the "build a better mousetrap and people will come theory" which may not be correct.
b.) Mainly because of the orignial genesis of the idea it's kind of a "If I ruled the world" (Now there's a thread that could be interesting) thinking rather that a logical well contructed business model.

Lot of cool ideas being suggested though :clap:

Take care,
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

For your honesty

An honest person would insult people to their faces, not their backs.

[WittyBird]

An honest person would insult people to their faces, not their backs.
*sits back with popcorn waiting for the entertainment to begin* :rofl:

[Chef]

An honest person would insult people to their faces, not their backs.

OK. I am interested now. I have read back through the posts and I have my suspicions about who was insulted by who and over what but I would rather hear the bona fide version straight from Mr Harpers Mouth.

Who was insulted?

By whom?

Why do you consider it to be an insult rather than a fair comment?

If you disagree with something (I am assuming that is why you neg repped) why not just disagree in public?

At least let us all know along which lines you are thinking.

[ducasi]

OK. I am interested now. I have read back through the posts and I have my suspicions about who was insulted by who and over what but I would rather hear the bona fide version straight from Mr Harpers Mouth. Like (I presume) Martin, I don't like it when forumites start slagging off a fellow dancer who is not here to hear and respond to the insults.

I wouldn't go as far as negative repping someone for it – the rep system on the forum is ultimately flawed, but we all have our own opinion of the people on it.

[El Salsero Gringo]

No, the teacher's job is to teach, the demo is there simply as a body. Only when both people are teachers should both teach.Speaking as an ex-demonstrator, there have been a fair few times in the more 'interesting' intermediate moves where I know there's a trick to getting a move to work - a particular lead from the fore-arm again the lady's back, or a half step to the left, or something non-obvious that I'm sure the teacher doesn't know and certainly hasn't mentioned on stage. But if that kind of thing becomes a formal part of Ceroc finding a demonstrator is going to be even harder for most teachers than it is already.
it would have shown he had genuine reasons for wanting to be a taxi dancer, there are alot who do it now as some type of status symbol thing!I respectfully submit that anyone who thinks being a taxi-dancer is a status thing has a lot to learn about the actual status of taxi-dancers.

[CJ]

– the rep system on the forum is ultimately flawed,

Il Duco,

everything, ultimately, is flawed.

What is it, IYO, that the rep system is trying to achieve and why is it not doing so?

Interesting...

[Ghost]

Il Duco,

everything, ultimately, is flawed.
Um, being pedantic - if everything is flawed then the statement is flawed and you get a circular mess a la the statement "I'm lying". Actually, it's not so much pedanticness as a dislike of latin phrases on my part.... :blush:


What is it, IYO, that the rep system is trying to achieve and why is it not doing so?

Interesting...
I asked this a while back and didn't get an answer. Yes it's straying off-topic, but it's my thread and I don't mind :wink:


What was negative rep originally intended for? Specifically as we can pm, post comments on the forum, or report a bad post. and it seems to cause such bad feelings - what's the point? Presuambly the moderators would notice someone who was say, consistently abusive, or Forumites would point them out?

What was positive rep originally intended for?
Still like to know.

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

OK. I am interested now.
Unfortunately finding out will probably involve getting this thread taken outside and it's freezing down here, let alone Scotland!!!

Please pm each other if you really want to know.

I think Tiggs, Dee and Missy Dee are just about on the edge here and haven't quite crossed over (yet). :flower:

Their point is that some Taxis are rather poor and that better training is good. (I believe). Seems reasonable. There's still plausible deniability as to who exactly the taxis are and I'd rather it was left that way. I have a certain sympathy for whoever the "Corpse" is though. Hmm a Ghost dancing with a Corpse, now there's an image :wink:

I'm sure if any of the fine ladies want to go and tell these taxis to their face that their dancing is terrible, they will do so. I would suggest that the Forum really isn't the place for it.


An honest person would insult people to their faces.
Like me :blush:

Take care and play nice, please :flower:

Christopher

[Ghost]

Someone (sorry can't remember who you were :flower: ) mentioned beginners stickers as a similar idea.
I remember now; Trish :worthy:
Be Well,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

I asked this a while back and didn't get an answer. Yes it's straying off-topic, but it's my thread and I don't mind :wink:
OK, here comes the mutations... IMHO the -ve rep system is flawed because most people don't use negative rep except in the last resort - or, to take an extreme example (me), never - because it generates too much flak, and causes too much grief, often to both the sender and the recipient.

Mostly, negative rep causes too much grief - Martin is the only person I know of who uses the -ve rep system the way it "should" be used, which is (I presume) to mark disapproval of a post, or to send a warning. Martin's taken a lot of flak himself for this, but he is at least consistent in his usage, whereas most people use it only when massively-annoyed and therefore less rational.

So, there's no "casual" way to say privately "I don't agree".

But ... hmmm ... I think that's more a cultural thing than a systemic thing; we're all too nice and fluffy to each other, in other words.

[Ghost]

good points
Um, good points :wink:

So, there's no "casual" way to say privately "I don't agree".
PMs?

No casual way to say "I disagree" anonymously though

But ... hmmm ... I think that's more a cultural thing than a systemic thing; we're all too nice and fluffy to each other, in other words.
Oh well, I can live with that. So as a general rule, if
a) Martin neg reps me I should assume it's well intentioned advice :cheers:
b) Someone else neg reps me I should assume I've really upset them? :blush:

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

So as a general rule, if
a) Martin neg reps me I should assume it's well intentioned advice :cheers:
b) Someone else neg reps me I should assume I've really upset them? :blush:
That's the way I'd take it, but you'll have to ask Martin for his views - I'd be very interested to hear his slant on this.

Martin?

Oh, Martin?

Anyone there?

[Chef]

Their point is that some Taxis are rather poor and that better training is good. (I believe). Seems reasonable. There's still plausible deniability as to who exactly the taxis are and I'd rather it was left that way.

Christopher

Like you I also thought there was plausable deniability as who the actaul person was (and I too would want it left that way). Just the fact that there really was a person (an not just an untracelable anecdote), who happened to be a taxi dancer, that flapped their arms and legs around like a chicken while dancing was interesting.

Mr Harper can neg rep if he disagrees with someone without his opinion being valid if he so chooses. I just wanted to get a clearer view of his thoughts. I am sure he will PM me , or make it public if he feels able to subject his views to the scrutiny of the forum as he chooses.

On the subject of Taxi dancers. Some are very good. Some are OK. But some are utterly dreadful and the dreadful ones are not always the ones that are new to the job. Over the past few months we have seen some of them who seemed barely capable of intermediate moves themselves being leaders of consolidation classes. I winced as a I watched a taxi dancer of 2 years experience push and pull a beginner so violently that she fell to the ground.

I do know that taxi dancers have refersher training courses (because I met the people that run them) but something somewhere is just not having the desired affect.

How can we look to the learner dancers being able to lead and follow, stay on time, perform a rockstep without falling backwards, turn on the spot ect if the people most closely involved in their early training cannot do it themselves.

Taxi dancer training is an area that Ceroc is currently falling down on, at least in the places that I have seen.

[ducasi]

What is it, IYO, that the rep system is trying to achieve and why is it not doing so? The ultimate failure is that the number is meaningless.

It's trying to put an absolute value on someone's reputation. Unfortunately this can lead to facile comparisons. There are so many other factors you need to take into account.

It also ignores the two-way aspect of reputation. Just because someone has a high reputation within a community, for each individual that respect must be earned.

That's not to say I don't enjoy playing the game – I love getting rep, and try to give it for every post that touches me in some significant way. But I can't take it seriously, especially not when I've got a higher rep than many other regular posters who are (IMHO) so much more deserving of it.

[Ghost]

The ultimate failure is that the number is meaningless.

Good points, but er where's the little guy?

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

The ultimate failure is that the number is meaningless.
:eek: What? Don't say that! :tears: :tears: :tears:

Yeah, actually I agree. I'm fairly sure my opinion isn't worth, say, twice as much as Franck's. (Although obviously it's worth much more than yours. :innocent: )

Seriously, I'd love to see a "rep reset" at the end of the year - I believe this happened before a while back, and people don't seem to have been emotionally scarred by that. Too much rep inflation around.

Hmmm, anyone want to start a poll on this?

[dee]

Are we talking about the "chicken" woman with the flappy wings, legs everywhere and bounces

I got neg repped for this post, not sure who from but i can only guess :whistle:

[dee]

:eek: What? Don't say that! :tears: :tears: :tears:

Yeah, actually I agree. I'm fairly sure my opinion isn't worth, say, twice as much as Franck's. (Although obviously it's worth much more than yours. :innocent: )

Seriously, I'd love to see a "rep reset" at the end of the year - I believe this happened before a while back, and people don't seem to have been emotionally scarred by that. Too much rep inflation around.

Hmmm, anyone want to start a poll on this?

Wasn't until a couple of months ago i even noticed this rep thing. I would love to see the "rep reset" too.

Come on DJ start that poll :clap:

[David Bailey]

I got neg repped for this post, not sure who from but i can only guess :whistle:
Well, if you're too cheap to cough up the £15 subscription fee...


Wasn't until a couple of months ago i even noticed this rep thing. I would love to see the "rep reset" too.

Come on DJ start that poll :clap:
I will if you rep me :rofl:

[ducasi]

Good points, but er where's the little guy? Sorry, he was in the bath... http://ducasi.org/images/smilies/bath.gif

[dee]

Well, if you're too cheap to cough up the £15 subscription fee...


I will if you rep me :rofl:

DJ i would rather you say i was "tight" than cheap :innocent:

[bigdjiver]

:devil: Why would the boss want to read this intercine .... ?

[Ghost]

I got neg repped for this post, not sure who from but i can only guess :whistle:

Not that I've had any, but I've given you some positive rep, to counterbalance
:rofl: Pre-emptive repping, love it. :clap:
So there's three of you. If you each rep each other that's +2. Loose 1 for the anonymous neg repper and you still come out +1 ahead. Had there been no threat of neg rep, you'd actually have lost out. :rofl:

This system's great, no?

Take care, :flower:
Christopher
< Quietly checking I can afford to loose some rep. Yep. Gonna take a while to whittle that down one point at a time especially if you have to 'spread it around'. Besides it'll just encourage me to write good posts to get some more. Or wait for the rep reset. :whistle: >

[Robin]

Speaking as an ex-demonstrator ....

Shall I let Tezi know or will you ???? :(

[Robin]

Get rid of the semi-circle.

I can't understand why they haven't, since the current boss never taught it anyway. :confused:

Ermm - if you're talking about Mr Ellard than you stand corrected ... back in the dim hallways of time, Mike did indeed teach the "small semi-circle" etc we all know and love so well; at the YWCA - Great Russell St.

For some years in fact.
:wink:

[Gadget]

BTW: older thread...
If I owned Ceroc (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1393)

[Ghost]

BTW: older thread...
If I owned Ceroc (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1393)
Thanks
I did a double take when I saw I'd made the second entry!

Be well,
Chriistopher

[ChrisA]

Ermm - if you're talking about Mr Ellard than you stand corrected ... back in the dim hallways of time, Mike did indeed teach the "small semi-circle" etc we all know and love so well; at the YWCA - Great Russell St.

For some years in fact.

Fair enough... I only go back to about '97 and it wouldn't have been for a year or two after that, that I first saw him teach.
Thanks for correcting me! :cheers:

[David Bailey]

Ermm - if you're talking about Mr Ellard than you stand corrected ... back in the dim hallways of time, Mike did indeed teach the "small semi-circle" etc we all know and love so well; at the YWCA - Great Russell St.

For some years in fact.
:wink:
Whew, thank God for that - I thought my memory was going even faster than I feared for a moment there.

Yes, I definitely recall Mike saying "Semi-circle with your left and step back" - in fact, I think those words are now imprinted on my DNA or something.

[TiggsTours]

An honest person would insult people to their faces, not their backs.
Meaning?

[TiggsTours]

I respectfully submit that anyone who thinks being a taxi-dancer is a status thing has a lot to learn about the actual status of taxi-dancers.Couldn't agree more, bad sadly there are a few who think it is something of a status symbol, poor, misguided souls that they are!

[TiggsTours]

I think Tiggs, Dee and Missy Dee are just about on the edge here and haven't quite crossed over (yet). :flower:

Hang on just one minute!

All I've said is that some taxi dancers do it for the status symbol thing, and free entry to dance nights, which alot have openly admitted on other threads, I personally believe this is the wrong reason to do it, and that a training course at the beginning will mean that only really dedicated taxi dancers will stick with it, rather than those who only do it for what they get out of it (not what they want to put in).

The only part where I singled someone out was about a male taxi dancer who was ignoring a whole table of female beginners, how do you know I haven't said anything to him, directly, about this?

[TiggsTours]

I do know that taxi dancers have refersher training courses (because I met the people that run them) but something somewhere is just not having the desired affect.
In some franchises, not all, I have to say, not in the one I taxi for, but I think they should!

[lindyloo]

Well I wouldn't change a thing as Mike is doing a fine job, things take time, he's owned the company 2 years, works 24/7 and has already worked wonders I believe (but I guess I am slightly biased!) xx

[MartinHarper]

Mike ... works 24/7

Wow.
Is it true that lack of sleep causes carelessness, hallucinations, and megalomania?

[ChrisA]

Well I wouldn't change a thing as Mike is doing a fine job, things take time, he's owned the company 2 years, works 24/7 and has already worked wonders I believe (but I guess I am slightly biased!) xx
How long would it take to send an email round, saying "Ok guys, no more semi circles"?

:innocent:

xx

[lindyloo]

We like the semi-sircles - as long as they are little ones.:clap:

Well ok I slightly exaggerated 15/7 is more like it:)

[ChrisA]

We like the semi-sircles - as long as they are little ones.
:tears:

Ok, well here's my question. I've been corrected, and now understand that in the good old days, Mike taught semicircles.

However, in the dozens of Mike's Casbah lessons I've been in over the years, not once has it been anything except "One and step back", with an occasional "Bold and step back".

So - and it's a genuine question - why do you keep it?

[lindyloo]

:tears:

So - and it's a genuine question - why do you keep it?


Because we like it - now stop thinking so much Chris and go and get some sleep and dream of lots of little semi-circles. Nite xx

[ChrisA]

Because we like it - now stop thinking so much Chris and go and get some sleep and dream of lots of little semi-circles. Nite xx
Bah !

:flower: :hug:

[bigdjiver]

Well I wouldn't change a thing as Mike is doing a fine job, things take time, he's owned the company 2 years, works 24/7 and has already worked wonders I believe (but I guess I am slightly biased!) xxI know Phil, the franchisee of Ceroc Central also works all hours. I guess that Franck does too, and that that is the pattern. I suspect that they are all too busy running the business to grow the business to its potential. That is why I suggested a MLM model might be better. IMO the large franchisees should be aiming to become super-franchisees, and training newcomers to take over parts of their area.

[stewart38]

Get someone to proof read the national web site (not me !)

so when venues close at 11.30am they mean 11.30pm etc etc

[CJ]

Because we like it - now stop thinking so much Chris and go and get some sleep and dream of lots of little semi-circles. Nite xx

*in the voice of the Count from Sesame Street*

Von..... Von little semi-ceercle
Two..... Two little semi-ceercles
Tree..... Tree little semi-ceercles
Tree little semi ceercles... I love to count.... ha..ha..ha..ha..ha..ha

[dee]

*in the voice of the Count from Sesame Street*

Von..... Von little semi-ceercle
Two..... Two little semi-ceercles
Tree..... Tree little semi-ceercles
Tree little semi ceercles... I love to count.... ha..ha..ha..ha..ha..ha

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[El Salsero Gringo]

*in the voice of the Count from Sesame Street*]

Von..... Von little semi-ceercle
Two..... Two little semi-ceercles
Tree..... Tree little semi-ceercles
Tree little semi ceercles... I love to count.... ha..ha..ha..ha..ha..haCeroc's full of such little gems:

-Teacher: "And now we'll do that move to a count"
-Me, under my breath: "A...ha...haaaa"

Or my personal favourite:

"Von lady on... two ladies on... tree ladiez on... A...ha...haaaa!"

You wouldn't believe what wierd looks that last one has earned me over the years. But I still find it funny. Ho hum.

[Gadget]

:yeah::blush:

{:rofl:}

[Barry Shnikov]

Couldn't agree more, bad sadly there are a few who think it is something of a status symbol, poor, misguided souls that they are!

Hmm. Here I sit, living breathing proof...

[Barry Shnikov]

an ex-demonstrator

:tears: :tears: :tears: :tears: :tears: