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stewart38
25th-November-2005, 12:54 PM
I was dancing with a beginner the other night (been about 3 times) and she told me, she had been told to 'bounce less'.

Now for me she wasnt bouncing and she seem fine ,after I told her 1/6th of the way into the dance 'forget' about trying not to 'bounce' just dance .


I think if a beginner has a death like grip etc we should tell them but i often wonder why so early on we can put them off on vague comments such as bounce less ,your not picking up the rythem, watch what foot your moving etc :sick:

Let them just dance in free style and ENJOY their first few weeks :yeah:

WittyBird
25th-November-2005, 01:29 PM
I completely agree with what your saying on this....

You so motivated me when I first started dancing and not once did you utter the words
'you aint ever gonna get this" or "try moving your hips"

I think you are an inspiration to all and nothing but the best of sarcasm is put into everything you do :D I thank you :worthy:

ChrisA
25th-November-2005, 01:37 PM
I think if a beginner has a death like grip etc we should tell them but i often wonder why so early on we can put them off on vague comments such as bounce less ,your not picking up the rythem, watch what foot your moving etc

Even a death-like grip is likely (at the beginning) to be caused by feeling tense, so it isn't necessarily helpful just to tell them not to grip - it's quite likely to make them more tense, and as soon as they forget, they'll start gripping again.

I agree, eejits giving poor advice is a bad thing on the dancefloor. Particularly since telling people not to do something is often the very worst thing you can do, unless you also tell them what they should be doing instead.

And not all that many people are good enough at knowing what the follower (if they are a leader) should be doing to have any chance of being able to explain it properly.

My feeling is that if you don't have anything helpful to say, the very least you can do is to shut up, and this applies very much to wannabee teachers (aka not very good intermediate dancers) on the dance floor.

El Salsero Gringo
25th-November-2005, 02:09 PM
Even a death-like grip is likely (at the beginning) to be caused by feeling tense, so it isn't necessarily helpful just to tell them not to grip - it's quite likely to make them more tense, and as soon as they forget, they'll start gripping again.Nah - I tell beginners to take their thumbs off the back of my hand, not for their benefit, but for mine: because I find it uncomfortable. As soon as the thumb goes back on - I tell them again. Because I still find it uncomfortable. If the thumb goes back on again - at any stage in the dance - I ask them please to take their thumb away. And so it goes on.

Ditto if they're yanking me: I ask them not to. I'm not improving their dance, I'm making mine more pleasant.
My feeling is that if you don't have anything helpful to say, the very least you can do is to shut up...Promise? :wink:

TiggsTours
25th-November-2005, 03:43 PM
Nah - I tell beginners to take their thumbs off the back of my hand, not for their benefit, but for mine: because I find it uncomfortable. As soon as the thumb goes back on - I tell them again. Because I still find it uncomfortable. If the thumb goes back on again - at any stage in the dance - I ask them please to take their thumb away. And so it goes on.

Ditto if they're yanking me: I ask them not to. I'm not improving their dance, I'm making mine more pleasant. Promise? :wink:
:yeah:

Once bad habits are formed, they are hard to break, best to get into the correct practice right from the start. There's right ways and wrong ways to do it though, tell someone with a smile, demonstrate (carefully) what happens when its done wrong.

The thumb on the back of the hand can cause injuries, so I would always point that out to a beginner, however bouncing, not dancing to the music, getting all flustered when it goes wrong, or looking at your feet all the time don't so I'd never get a beginner all hung up over that, let them enjoy the dancing, then iron out those issues over time, that's my philosphy.

Trish
25th-November-2005, 03:43 PM
Nah - I tell beginners to take their thumbs off the back of my hand, not for their benefit, but for mine: because I find it uncomfortable. As soon as the thumb goes back on - I tell them again. Because I still find it uncomfortable. If the thumb goes back on again - at any stage in the dance - I ask them please to take their thumb away. And so it goes on.

Ditto if they're yanking me: I ask them not to. I'm not improving their dance, I'm making mine more pleasant.

Yes, I'm with you on that really, although I'd try to encourage them at the same time and tell them what would work better. And to some extent if you don't tell them nicely at the beginning, surely they'll then go away with the idea that what they're doing everything perfectly ok? If no-one tells them how are they supposed to know?

stewart38
25th-November-2005, 03:52 PM
Yes, I'm with you on that really, although I'd try to encourage them at the same time and tell them what would work better. And to some extent if you don't tell them nicely at the beginning, surely they'll then go away with the idea that what they're doing everything perfectly ok? If no-one tells them how are they supposed to know?


No the women was told by a man who danced with her 'dont bounce too much'.

She told me this 'ie I must not bounce too much' as we started to dance and she asked two times in seconds am I bouncing ?

So very early on in the dance I said your not 'bouncing' and just enjoy the dance.

Im not talking about the lessons , when she relaxed she danced better , i cant explain it in words :sad:

Trousers
25th-November-2005, 04:47 PM
Bouncing is a difficult one in my book - i don't like leading a bouncer - generally they take tooooooo many steps and thus cant respond to me as fast as I'd like but i would never say anything to a bouncer

I used to dance with a girl in Guildford who, I was told by her friend after she found out the bouncy girls nick name was Skippy! had deliberately perfected the bouncy dance technique because she thought it looked better. When posed against logic like that i just roll over and give in.

But I will stick my two penneth in, if i think it might help and not offend. Example beginner ladies who can spin always always spin as fast as possible even when the track is slooooooooow. I do a quick risk assessment - Do I know this woman - will I see her again - does she look like waynetta slob - is she bigger than me and can i see the exit clearly? Then I will get her in a first move and suggest she takes more time with her spins as the music is slow, then add quickly - you are very good at spinning but this is a slow track and we have lots of time.

Some times it works sometimes I ask the DJ to get the knife out of my back before I go home!

fletch
25th-November-2005, 05:07 PM
One of my friends was told she bounces by a guy at Stockport and she hasn't been since :sad: there is nothing we can say to persuade her to come (shame):tears: people find there own style isn't it all about enjoying dancing and been a bit tolerant,:flower: non of us a perfect, just different.:hug:

stewart38
25th-November-2005, 05:20 PM
Yes, I'm with you on that really, although I'd try to encourage them at the same time and tell them what would work better. And to some extent if you don't tell them nicely at the beginning, surely they'll then go away with the idea that what they're doing everything perfectly ok? If no-one tells them how are they supposed to know?


NOOOOOOOOOOO

Im not talking about the class or with a Taxi dancer or in the lessons

I dont want to tell someone 'what would work better' when its basically her third time and she has ventured on the dance floor

Its not about lying to her or refusing to ans if she says

'The last guy said im bouncing too much'

I could say yes you are try this etc

I could say no forget about that just enjoy the dance , you dont bounce anyway ( I said that and meant it)

or above and mean it

Its meant to be FUN

I think the look on her face when i said stop worrying if you bounce too much would explain it a lot better then I can :sad:

I think if i told her 'hey lads a new skippy here' we may not have seen her again

Trish
25th-November-2005, 05:37 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOO

Im not talking about the class or with a Taxi dancer or in the lessons

I dont want to tell someone 'what would work better' when its basically her third time and she has ventured on the dance floor

Its not about lying to her or refusing to ans if she says

'The last guy said im bouncing too much'

I could say yes you are try this etc

I could say no forget about that just enjoy the dance , you dont bounce anyway ( I said that and meant it)

or above and mean it

Its meant to be FUN

I think the look on her face when i said stop worrying if you bounce too much would explain it a lot better then I can :sad:

I think if i told her 'hey lads a new skippy here' we may not have seen her again

ok, ok I get your point, no need to shout at me! And really no need to reply to me twice, I hadn't had time to read your first reply.

I can see both sides to this, although I have some sympathy with the guy that was trying to get her not to bounce, as bouncy and yanking dancers are what's knackered my shoulders. However I never said I would do this, only that if they were yanking/grabbing and hurting me I would tell them this - it was ESG's post I was replying to, with your circumstance I hadn't decided what I'd do so therefore I hadn't replied! (Surely it would depend on the extent of bouncing to some extent?) And yes, with what I said it's when I'm taxiing that I'm talking about really.

Sorry if I annoyed you, but we're all entitled to our opinions.

Lee
25th-November-2005, 05:45 PM
When is the best time to advise people about things like this, do you assume it's the taxis role, or do you dance with them once but never again because you are too embarrassed to advise without hurting their feelings?

I struggle to understand the best approach, surely we should help and advise everyone we come across? But then what if they turn out to be someone that has danced for years and is just rubbish?

:confused:

Lee

Bangers & Mash
25th-November-2005, 05:47 PM
I think if a beginner has a death like grip etc we should tell them but i often wonder why so early on we can put them off on vague comments such as bounce less ,your not picking up the rythem, watch what foot your moving etc :sick:


Hmmm, Edinburgh used to have a real bopper! It was like dancing with a pogo stick! I used to think it was my bad lead and weak dance that meant I couldn't cope with it until I watched the result when she grabbed both Trampy and Franck for a dance in the same night.

Both remained as polite as possible but their facial expressions were hilarious. I remember she made Trampy look like he was playing basketball. :rofl:

Lee
25th-November-2005, 05:49 PM
Hmmm, Edinburgh used to have a real bopper! It was like dancing with a pogo stick! I used to think it was my bad lead and weak dance that meant I couldn't cope with it until I watched the result when she grabbed both Trampy and Franck for a dance in the same night.

Both remained as polite as possible but their facial expressions were hilarious. I remember she made Trampy look like he was playing basketball. :rofl:

So what do ya do? I would like to see everyones idea of how to handle this situation.

Bangers & Mash
25th-November-2005, 05:51 PM
So what do ya do? I would like to see everyones idea of how to handle this situation.

Let go. Jump up and down as well and say "I wonder if they've got 'Come on Eileen'?" :what:

stewart38
25th-November-2005, 05:58 PM
ok, ok I get your point, no need to shout at me! And really no need to reply to me twice, I hadn't had time to read your first reply.

I can see both sides to this, although I have some sympathy with the guy that was trying to get her not to bounce, as bouncy and yanking dancers are what's knackered my shoulders. However I never said I would do this, only that if they were yanking/grabbing and hurting me I would tell them this - it was ESG's post I was replying to, with your circumstance I hadn't decided what I'd do so therefore I hadn't replied! (Surely it would depend on the extent of bouncing to some extent?) And yes, with what I said it's when I'm taxiing that I'm talking about really.

Sorry if I annoyed you, but we're all entitled to our opinions.

sorry wasnt shouting and it was to a different point you made not the same one :sick:

:flower:

stewart38
25th-November-2005, 06:02 PM
When is the best time to advise people about things like this, do you assume it's the taxis role, or do you dance with them once but never again because you are too embarrassed to advise without hurting their feelings?

I struggle to understand the best approach, surely we should help and advise everyone we come across? But then what if they turn out to be someone that has danced for years and is just rubbish?

:confused:

Lee


Ive lost the will to live and dive out window

As i didnt think she was a bouncer i dont think id tell her she was one :what:

Should I 'help and advise' everyone i meet thats very patronising i think

Id def find her next week and dance with her

I havent explain myself at all well

Ghost
25th-November-2005, 06:03 PM
So what do ya do? I would like to see everyones idea of how to handle this situation.
Ok purely as a "this is what I do" rather than "This is the ultimate answer"

If it's just hand bouncing we're talking about, I let them do it. But I lead smoothly. It's up to them to bounce my hand at the beats. Quite a few people settle down and stop doing it when they realise that I know where the beats are and can lead them so in effect, they don't need to know when the beats are.

I assume one of two things happens - they either evolve a really cool version of the bouncy hands style - I know one such lady :clap: - or they get used to feeling the beat and so don't need to bounce their hands anymore. I tend to think of it the equivalent of counting on your fingers to do maths.

If anyone specifically asks me anything about their dance style, I will answer truthfully and to the best of my ability, but not brutally. The only piece of advice I offer is at the beginning of a dance to someone who's told me they're a beginner or "not very good" and it is this
"All you need to know is this - whatever happens, just relax and keep moving. It'll all be fine"

But that's me.

Take care,
Christopher

Lee
25th-November-2005, 06:10 PM
I do a quick risk assessment - Do I know this woman - will I see her again - does she look like waynetta slob - is she bigger than me and can i see the exit clearly? Then I will get her in a first move and suggest she takes more time with her spins as the music is slow, then add quickly - you are very good at spinning but this is a slow track and we have lots of time.

Some times it works sometimes I ask the DJ to get the knife out of my back before I go home!

I might opt for this option.

Lee
25th-November-2005, 06:12 PM
Ive lost the will to live and dive out window

As i didnt think she was a bouncer i dont think id tell her she was one :what:

Should I 'help and advise' everyone i meet thats very patronising i think

Id def find her next week and dance with her

I havent explain myself at all well

I wasn't just aiming this at you, i just trying to keep the question to the subject matter but it could also be aimed any any person you dance with, do you try to help when you see a problem in the dancing or walk away and leave it for someone else to deal with.

MartinHarper
25th-November-2005, 06:21 PM
I've always been grateful for the folks willing to give me help and advice when dancing, including those who did it in my first few weeks. I've not knifed anyone for it yet, though it can sometimes be hard to hear something I don't want to hear.

bigdjiver
26th-November-2005, 03:35 AM
I danced Trad Jive long before I discovered MJ. It has a very skippy, bouncy style. I loved it, and still do. If the music says "bounce" to me, and partner likes to bounce too, I bounce, and love it.

As for beginner ladies gripping, I never have that problem. Despite the wisdom of the sages I will, when appropriate hold a beginner ladies hand. If I am holding hers, she does not need to hold mine. The advantage is that this makes the lead even clearer for a beginner, and I know when to hold and when not to. One example is leading a catapult to a lady that has never done one before. It only needs the gentlest of grips to ensure that the lady takes the offered hand with her correct one. I make a point of dancing with beginners, and one problem that I have not seen at my regular venues is ladies gripping.

ChrisA
26th-November-2005, 11:37 AM
So what do ya do? I would like to see everyones idea of how to handle this situation.
If it's not quite as extreme as the situation you describe, I might lead a bounce out of phase. One consistent thing about people that bounce is that they kinda have to get into it... so if you disrupt the rhythm (and it doesn't take much force to provide the damping) they can't.

This technique is also useful in the class when they grab your hand and drag you violently from one side to the other during the bit before the move starts.

On bouncing, there's nothing wrong with a bit of bounce in the knees when the track is bouncy. It's only when it's in the arms that it's a real problem.

If I'm taxiing at the time, then I would quite likely say something about the bouncy hands, and how much harder it makes it to lead and follow. But this would also be combined with actual tips on how to follow, how to step, how to spin, if that's what she wanted. As I've said, there's no point telling people not to do something if you don't tell them what to do instead.

I actually agree with BigD in that it's quite often helpful to take the girl's hand and hold it. This business about "no thumbs" is just a simplification of "no violently gripping thumbs", which recognises that at the beginning, being tense will lead to grips that are harder than you think.

Caro
26th-November-2005, 06:43 PM
I started dancing ceroc last year and I would quite agree with people who say that you shouldn't give too much advise (DO... and DON'T...) to a beginner in their first few weeks - unless she/he asked for it. I remember those dreadful first times on the dancefloor when I ventured to ask somebody to dance, and coudn't quite get the beat or the moves, and didn't know what to do when the music was slow etc....:what:
So unless it's a real lifethreatening issue, I think it's better to help beginners relax and enjoy the dance rather than starting telling them what they do wrong. I think this can totally put off many people; then your confidence -which wasn't high anyway - totally drops and you feel real stupid and don't dare to dance anymore. :sick:

When they start to enjoy the dance and want to improve, then they'll ask more experienced dancers what do they wrong and how can they improve etc.
And at this time only (I think) you can tell what's wrong or not so good. I remember after a couple of months I used to kind of kick when I stepped back because I enjoyed that and thought it looked good. Then I asked a very experienced dancer (BBTC actually :wink: ) how I could improve and he showed me what effect that kick had on his lead and how it felt 'heavy' for him. Well it wasn't especially nice to hear that I was heavy but I understood why and was very grateful that he told me, so that I could work on it. It was very good for me to hear that, but only because I had asked for it and was ready to receive the answer. If any dancer would have told me at any time, out of the blue, 'you're heavy when you dance' this would have really affected my confidence and may have put me off dancing - at least in the early stages of my ceroc.
Throughout the last year, I've asked many dancers much more advanced than me what I should do to improve, to follow better etc, and I've received their feedback very gratefully.

So hey that were my thoughts on the subject; and by the way a big thank you to all those dancers who have helped me, and especially BBTC :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: MERCI!!!! :kiss:

Whitebeard
26th-November-2005, 10:24 PM
This technique is also useful in the class when they grab your hand and drag you violently from one side to the other during the bit before the move starts.

(My emphasis.)

But that's exactly what I do, though gently, to try to smother the vertical arm movement (bounce) present in some followers and try to put over the fact that I wish the dance to be mainly in a horizontal plane.

Of course those ladies don't just start to bounce spontaneously, there must be many leads quite willing to teach them this bad habit.

MartinHarper
27th-November-2005, 05:00 AM
Of course those ladies don't just start to bounce spontaneously

Folks bounce when walking or running, so it's not wildly surprising to see that they bounce when dancing. The MJ dogma is fairly unnatural, in that respect.

Ghost
27th-November-2005, 02:00 PM
Of course those ladies don't just start to bounce spontaneously, there must be many leads quite willing to teach them this bad habit.

I think it's actually the demo / teacher (whoever's the follow). In my experience a lot of them deliberately hand bounce on the counts. I assume that after a while of watching them, some ladies go "Hey, that's a great way to keep track of the beat. Plus she looks stylish. And she's the teacher / demo so it must be right". This also ties in well with the slight, but variable time lag before it happens - different people take different amounts of time to notice and some people either don't at all or decide it's not for them.

I think I'm the closest lead here (at the moment) to encouraging hand bouncing and even I'm only really advocating acceptance.

Any leads want to 'fess up for teaching hand bouncing to beginning follows?

Take care,
Christopher

Ghost
27th-November-2005, 03:08 PM
This technique is also useful in the class when they grab your hand and drag you violently from one side to the other during the bit before the move starts.
Again, I think this is down to ladies emulating the demos and teachers who do what could be described as a "one armed armjive with footwork" during the 5,6,7, bit.

It's not all bad; on another thread Gadget's mentioned using the time to sync up with their footwork for example. It's the violent yanking and / or the follow actually leading the move which is more problematic.

Take care,
Christopher

Whitebeard
27th-November-2005, 05:37 PM
Again, I think this is down to ladies emulating the demos and teachers who do what could be described as a "one armed armjive with footwork" during the 5,6,7, bit.

That's a good thought which I must admit I haven't noticed but sounds very plausible. I'll look out for it when I stop coughing and sneezing and can return to dancing.

Ghost
27th-November-2005, 06:05 PM
That's a good thought which I must admit I haven't noticed but sounds very plausible. I'll look out for it when I stop coughing and sneezing and can return to dancing.

Thanks.

Hope you feel better soon,
Christopher

stewart38
27th-November-2005, 06:13 PM
I wasn't just aiming this at you, i just trying to keep the question to the subject matter but it could also be aimed any any person you dance with, do you try to help when you see a problem in the dancing or walk away and leave it for someone else to deal with.


Is it ever mans role to tell a women what she is doing wrong ?? good question

I see it very different if someone ASKED me or what they were doing was dangerous.

Ghost
27th-November-2005, 06:54 PM
Is it ever mans role to tell a women what she is doing wrong ?? good question

I see it very different if someone ASKED me or what they were doing was dangerous.
:yeah: But yes, if they ask I'll try. If they're being dangerous I'll still try and be polite and gentle because it may be a genuine misunderstanding or blindspot, especially if they're a beginner, but I'll make the point. I once had rather frail old lady on her first lesson who had terrible balance and wanted me to basically manhandle her through the moves with a lot of force to counteract her inability to follow. Eh, no thanks :blush:

I personally think you've got the balance right here.

It is possible to go beyond and give helpful, useful advice that will be taken in a bright and happy manner :clap: , but my personal feeling is that if you're not sure that you can do it, then you probably can't. I'd much rather acknowledge my own limits and not put some poor lady off Ceroc for good because of my well meaning but clumsy "helpful advice". :blush:

:worthy: To those charismatic souls who can and do though.

Take care,
Christopher

MartinHarper
27th-November-2005, 07:18 PM
I'd much rather acknowledge my own limits and not put some poor lady off Ceroc for good because of my well meaning but clumsy "helpful advice". :blush:

Having intermediates and advanced dancers who are happy to dance with strangers, and ask them to dance unbidden, is a great thing. It contributes a lot to the friendliness of a venue, the retention rate, and the speed of learning. Nobody should underestimate the benefits from this attitude.

The downsides of well meaning but clumsy advice are negligible in comparison. I'd question whether it's even possible for one person out of a hall of hundreds to put someone off dancing for good. If Intermediate Ivy gives advice to Beginner Brian, and her advice makes the dance more enjoyable for her, and thus makes her happier to dance with Brian and all his friends, then I wholeheartedly encourage her to do so. If the advice is utter nonsense, so much the better.

If all the intermediates go around treading on eggshells, worrying about putting their partner off dancing, then that's going to make them less happy, and it's probably going to make their partners less happy. That's not helpful for anyone.

Whitebeard
27th-November-2005, 07:21 PM
I think it's actually the demo / teacher (whoever's the follow). In my experience a lot of them deliberately hand bounce on the counts. I assume that after a while of watching them, some ladies go "Hey, that's a great way to keep track of the beat. Plus she looks stylish. And she's the teacher / demo so it must be right". This also ties in well with the slight, but variable time lag before it happens - different people take different amounts of time to notice and some people either don't at all or decide it's not for them.

I do believe you may well be right there and are confirming a seed of suspicion which has been growing in my mind; reluctantly coming to the conclusion that the bouncing hand originates right up there on the stage. Not that it is explicitly taught it's just that, as you say, some teachers emphasize each count with a hand movement. A proportion of beginners', I guess, see this as an integral part of the dance.

Ghost
27th-November-2005, 07:28 PM
Having intermediates and advanced dancers who are happy to dance with strangers, and ask them to dance unbidden, is a great thing.
Sorry obviously wasn't clear. I'll happily dance with beginners see http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7019 entry 4


The downsides of well meaning but clumsy advice are negligible in comparison. I'd question whether it's even possible for one person out of a hall of hundreds to put someone off dancing for good.
Personally I disagree. There's quite a few things you can do of an evening and a lot of different dance styles. It really easy for "You would be better if you stopped bouncing your hand" to come across as "Your dancing sucks" :blush:


If all the intermediates go around treading on eggshells, worrying about putting their partner off dancing, then that's going to make them less happy, and it's probably going to make their partners less happy. That's not helpful for anyone.
No need to tread on eggshells. Just dance :clap: If they ask, helpfully tell them. If they're being dangerous, gently explain why.

But you might be better at giving negative feedback than I am...:whistle:

Take care,
Christopher

Daisy Chain
27th-November-2005, 08:18 PM
Folks bounce when walking or running, so it's not wildly surprising to see that they bounce when dancing.

...only if they aren't wearing suitable undergarments.

Daisy

(A Corseted Little Flower)

Lory
27th-November-2005, 10:59 PM
...only if they aren't wearing suitable undergarments.


:rofl: :worthy: :rofl:

Missy D
27th-November-2005, 11:25 PM
When I first started Ceroc I was told to stop bouncing but, because they were good dancers I listened. I spent hour after hour just walking through moves instead of dancing to them (yes it was boring - but I didnt want to be crap). A year after starting Ceroc my partner entered me into the Blackpool competition in the advanced section where we got 6th place. So I am glad those people pulled me up on the bouncing or I might just be one of those people that no one wants to dance with. Some of the taxi dancers are too blame. I see one girl every wednesday bouncing through every move showing them all wrong. Maybe Ceroc teachers should look properly at their taxi dancers (most are very good) and make sure they are demonstrating the moves properly. I do pull men up on things like gripping my hand and explain why. Also if I do dance with a real confident bouncer I start jumping as well. If they ask what I am doing I just say "following your lead". Most of the time the men do laugh and say "do I bounce"?. I never jump around with beginners though.

Whitebeard
27th-November-2005, 11:41 PM
When I first started Ceroc I was told to stop bouncing but, because they were good dancers I listened. I spent hour after hour just walking through moves instead of dancing to them (yes it was boring - but I didnt want to be crap).
Perhaps the answer is to bounce sideways ;-)

And I'm being pretty serious here.

MartinHarper
28th-November-2005, 01:23 AM
It's really easy for "You would be better if you stopped bouncing your hand" to come across as "Your dancing sucks" :blush:

Sure.

Suppose some woman gets discouraged after that kind of comment, sits the next five dances out, convinces herself that she really does suck, and goes home. Who else didn't dance with our disheartened newbie before she walked out in disgust? Well, every man in the building. Maybe if just one of them had asked her to dance, in those critical 15 minutes, she would have been reassured, and left with her head held high.

It's easy to blame those who act, and screw up, and forget about those who screwed up by not acting.


Just dance

If you'll permit me to drop any pretence at altruism... one of the reasons to dance with beginners is the opportunity to mould them as I see fit, and plant the seeds that will eventually sprout into a fantastic dancer for me. Give me a dancer for her first six weeks, and she is mine for life. I'm not alone in that, either.

Ghost
28th-November-2005, 03:06 AM
It's easy to blame those who act, and screw up, and forget about those who screwed up by not acting.
:clap: Yep. Fair enough. I've also had it when the guy's helpful advice has either been plain wrong or the lady misunderstood and I've reassured them that "No, your dancing doesn't suck. See how wonderfully you're dancing with me? :wink: "


If you'll permit me to drop any pretence at altruism... one of the reasons to dance with beginners is the opportunity to mould them as I see fit, and plant the seeds that will eventually sprout into a fantastic dancer for me. Give me a dancer for her first six weeks, and she is mine for life. I'm not alone in that, either.
Ok now that's just scary :blush: . I take it you know the origins of the phrase and what an effective job they did of ruining something truly beautiful into something corrupt and horrific? :angry:

You do know there's a piano falling right?

(See how good I am at giving unsolicited negative feedback? :blush: )

Take care,
Christopher

MartinHarper
28th-November-2005, 10:33 AM
I take it you know the origins of the phrase and what an effective job they did of ruining something truly beautiful into something corrupt and horrific?

As far as I know, it's from an apocrophal Jesuit saying: "Give me a child until he is seven, and he is mine for life" - or variations on that.

Ghost
28th-November-2005, 03:21 PM
As far as I know, it's from an apocrophal Jesuit saying: "Give me a child until he is seven, and he is mine for life" - or variations on that.
Yep. While the Jesuits have done some wonderful things, this particular concept was embraced by various Christians and lead to some truly messed up stuff. :tears: .

Normally I'd do this all by pm, but if what you say about their being others sharing your view, then frankly I find that appauling and terrifying.

Seriously, do you think there's any ladies on the Forum thrilled at the idea of
being moulded as you see fit?

Have you considered that by extension, some of the ladies you dance with may be moulding you as they see fit?. So if you're being moulded by someone else, that then changes your take on what you should mould someone else into. eg how should they feel about signals?

I would also point out the company you're sharing. Consider historical figures who felt that people should be moulded as they saw fit for their purposes?

Take care,
Christopher

Trish
28th-November-2005, 03:21 PM
sorry wasnt shouting and it was to a different point you made not the same one :sick:

:flower:

No, it was the same one - honestly - have a look! :rofl:

azande
28th-November-2005, 03:28 PM
No, it was the same one - honestly - have a look! :rofl:
...hu ho... :rofl:

stewart38
28th-November-2005, 03:29 PM
No, it was the same one - honestly - have a look! :rofl:

Can we just be friends, I have none left now after me trying to stop the nasty people killing old people .

Misty
28th-November-2005, 03:34 PM
If Intermediate Ivy gives advice to Beginner Brian, and her advice makes the dance more enjoyable for her, and thus makes her happier to dance with Brian and all his friends, then I wholeheartedly encourage her to do so.

Early on in my dancing a guy said to me "you hold on quite a bit with you thumbs". My response was to say sorry, but he said not to worry. I didn't take offence, but did think "hmm obviously I'm not supposed to use my thumbs" and so I concentrated on not doing it. If he'd not said anything then a year later I might still be hanging on, so i'm really glad he did.

I do sometimes give feedback, but am always very careful of what I say and how I say it. I once had a dance with a yanker where I just couldn't think what to say without causing offence so kept quiet and just tried to avoid dancing with him again. However some time later he asked me for a dance and it was no better so I plucked up the nerve. I said to him that he uses his strength quite a bit (on the basis that most men don't mind their strength being commented on!) and that it's not necessary for most ladies, that some of us are quite delicate so there's the risk of injury, and that actually it's easier to follow if the guy uses less strength (or words to that effect). He was obviously very self concious whenever he danced with me in the following intermediate class but he was really trying to be much gentler. I danced with him again in a class a few weeks later and what a transformation! No yanking, much softer and smoother and I'm very happy to dance with him now. He did say that he now gets more apprecation from the ladies and that he finds it smoother so success all round. I think he was a fairly new intermediate so maybe he was at the right stage for something to be said.

So in summary I definitely think it's OK to give feedback provided it's done in a tactful and sensitive way and at the right stage.

Linked with this, many of the classes I go to (leroc) don't have taxi dancers, and though most teachers make an effort to dance with people some never do, so in these instances the only way people will ever get any feedback is from other dancers.

Trish
28th-November-2005, 03:34 PM
Can we just be friends, I have none left now after me trying to stop the nasty people killing old people .

Yes, certainly - no offence meant! Have a flower :flower: and a dance if I ever meet you (somewhere at a weekender perhaps? Well - as long as you don't bounce anyway :rofl: )

MartinHarper
28th-November-2005, 08:26 PM
Have you considered that by extension, some of the ladies you dance with may be moulding you as they see fit?

Sure. Indeed, a few have told me just that. I'm fine with that, not least because I suspect I'm a better dancer as result.
Also, I pay £X a week to various people to mould my dancing, in group sessions that I like to call "classes".

Ghost
28th-November-2005, 09:49 PM
Sure. Indeed, a few have told me just that. I'm fine with that, not least because I suspect I'm a better dancer as result.
And if you’re wrong?

And even then at least they’re telling you. Do you explain to beginners that you’re moulding them to create your own harem of uber-dancers? There’s also the small matter that although beginners might be better for you thanks to your moulding, a lot of us don’t seem to share your value system. Signals and semi-circle leads spring to mind. So potentially you’re wrecking someone’s dancing to suit you.


Also, I pay £X a week to various people to mould my dancing, in group sessions that I like to call "classes".
I suspect your teachers probably don’t view the lessons as
“the opportunity to mould them as I see fit, and plant the seeds that will eventually sprout into a fantastic dancer for me.” Now that would make for an interesting advertising slogan.

It is a truly bad idea to try and deliberately mould someone to your idea of who they should be so that you can use them. I refer you to the concept of cults.

Be Well,
Christopher

jivecat
28th-November-2005, 10:14 PM
There’s also the small matter that although beginners might be better for you thanks to your moulding, a lot of us don’t seem to share your value system. Signals and semi-circle leads spring to mind. So potentially you’re wrecking someone’s dancing to suit you.


I think you've taken the "moulding" remarks way too seriously. I don't know anything about value systems but I don't think the kind of focussed advice that I assume MartinHarper is dishing out is likely to do anyone any harm. Looking back, as a beginner I spent most of my time dancing with arrhythmic, uncoordinated yankers who knew very little more than me. It took the occasional dance with someone halfway competent to give me the confidence to believe I could do it properly and to enjoy dancing. I spent several years figuring out for myself some fairly basic things which should have been taught in the class or by taxi dancers but weren't. People who could be bothered to take me on one side to give a kindly word of advice are now remembered with gratitude. If I'd been fortunate enough to have had quality "moulding" time from a dancer such as Mr Harper I'd have learnt a lot faster and had (even more) fun.

Btw, I think it's "Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man".
Was it Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuits? (It's been a long time since History "A" Level.) Refers to the importance of early experiences in forming the character.

Ghost
28th-November-2005, 10:55 PM
I think you've taken the "moulding" remarks way too seriously.
I'm inclined to agree with you. The problem is the phrase "for me" . He even highlighted it.

I fully get the concept of giving advice to help someone become a better dancer and so you also benefit :clap: . Martin, if that's your point the I've misunderstood and I apologise. But I've re-read his posts on this quite a few times to see if I was seeing something that wasn't there and in this case I believe Martin is actually saying that he and others deliberately "mould them as I see fit, and plant the seeds that will eventually sprout into a fantastic dancer for me."


I don't know anything about value systems but I don't think the kind of focussed advice that I assume MartinHarper is dishing out is likely to do anyone any harm.
Firstly let me be clear, I'm aiming this generally to anyone who actually thinks that this is a good idea. It's the "for me" part. Say a person likes signals. Then they would want to mould the follow to like signals. This doesn't necesarily make them a better dancer.


Looking back, as a beginner I spent most of my time dancing with arrhythmic, uncoordinated yankers who knew very little more than me. And if one of these guys had decided to mould you where would you be now?


I spent several years figuring out for myself some fairly basic things which should have been taught in the class or by taxi dancers but weren't. :tears:


People who could be bothered to take me on one side to give a kindly word of advice are now remembered with gratitude.
:clap: Presumably because they did it well.


If I'd been fortunate enough to have had quality "moulding" time from a dancer such as Mr Harper I'd have learnt a lot faster and had (even more) fun.
Do you have your own style? Would you be happy to give that up?


Btw, I think it's "Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man".
Was it Ignatius Loyola, founder of the Jesuits? (It's been a long time since History "A" Level.) Refers to the importance of early experiences in forming the character.
Yes and no. You are quite correct with your quote. However the version that Martin quoted is the version used by the various Christians I mentioned. It's in my opinion a twisted version. As I said the Jesuits come up with some wonderful stuff. "They'll be mine for life" is not.

Having said all that

Thank you for what you said and I sincerely hope that you're right and I'm wrong about Martin. :flower:

Martin?

Take care,
Christopher

MartinHarper
29th-November-2005, 03:01 AM
Warning: irredeemably long and meandering post coming up.


I think you've taken the "moulding" remarks way too seriously.

Hush, Slave 14 - don't give the game away!
(actually, jivecat started way before me, and is clearly better, so I'd have to be her slave instead).


The problem is the phrase "for me" . He even highlighted it.

This is a big discussion for two little words, even highlighted. I guess I meant a couple of things by that. Firstly, I wanted to re-emphasise the selfish nature of the interaction. Remember, if anyone asks, I dance with beginners because I'm just a fantastically nice guy, and I'd be a great catch for any single woman, above or below 30, and remarkably free of sociopathic tendencies. However, just between ourselves, I guess I can open up, and admit to a bit of self-interest.

Secondly, I wanted to acknowledge my limitations, and my subjectivity. I'd love to be able to mould the women I dance with into fantastic dancers for everyone, in the spirit of Christmas, as a gift from myself to the dancing world.
That's a little optimistic, so I settle for imagining that, occasionally, things I say or do nudge someone in a direction that makes them more pleasant for me to dance with - and maybe others who are like me. Assuming that the folks I dance with get other occasional nudges from other people, and rare snatches of actual dance teaching from da crew, I won't have undue influence.

I will, though, have more influence than random hotshots, which gives me secret pleasure. They won't start dancing with my beginners until I already own their souls. (The souls of beginners, that is, not souls of hotshots. Hotshot souls trade very poorly on the black market, and don't dance as well).

----

I've been dancing for 18 months or so now - a mixture of Modern Jive and Lindy. There are about five to ten teachers who I've had regular weekly classes from, over this time. There are a few dozen more if you include random workshops. I guess I've had something of a mongrel introduction to two mongrel dances.

So, I was dancing with some girl, the other day. I don't think we'd met before. Suddenly, out of the blue, she pipes up: "you learnt to dance with Kim and Gabi, right?". She's right, of course: I learnt almost exclusively from them for the first few months of my dancing. Somehow, after all this time, all these teachers, and another two dance forms, their influence is still visible in my dancing. Funny world.

So, uh, yeah. Early dance experiences are important.

----


Do you explain to beginners that you’re moulding them to create your own harem of uber-dancers?

I wouldn't mind creating a harem of uber-dancers. It'd be kinda cool. Perhaps we could have costumes made, and fight crime. Or something. Sadly, I am entirely incapable of making myself into an uber-dancer, let alone anyone else. If I was capable of creating such a harem, maybe I'd be less casual about the whole thing.

I'd love to be in someone else's harem of uber-dancers. They could tell me what to do, and give me chocolate when I was good, and spank me when I was bad, and I'd become an uber-dancer, and have special powers. Or, failing special powers, I'd be able to give people pleasure. Isn't that every dancer's aim, anyway - to give their partner a pleasurable dance? If it turned out that my maker got the most pleasure out of me, slightly more than everyone else... I don't think I'd mind. Nobody ever became an uber-dancer without making a few sacrifices.

Still, I recognise that most folks don't share my predilictions. It's very rare that I say something like "Bad follower! No cookie!", or smack them on the head with a rolled-up newspaper. There should probably be a smiley here indicating whether or not I'm serious, but I kinda like it like this.

As to whether I tell beginners that their first few weeks of dancing are going to affect them for the rest of their natural lives... I think that would possibly be unnecessarilly scary. Sometimes the general concept comes up in chat, I guess. Rarely.
Does anyone? Everyone who interacts with beginners is going to affect how they develop as a dancer. Sometimes that will be conscious: the teacher who wants his students to actually learn to dance. Sometimes that will be subconscious: the hotshot who becomes a role model showing that good dancers are unfriendly and aloof.
It's just part of life. What would you have me do? "Excuse me, do you have the time, and are you aware that there's a vanishingly small chance that this brief interaction with me will change your life forever?"

----


Signals and semi-circle leads spring to mind. So potentially you’re wrecking someone’s dancing to suit you.

If you consider that signals and semi-circles "wreck" dancing, I humbly suggest that you first assassinate the large number of modern jive teachers who are "wrecking" the dancing of their beginners in order to suit... their franchise agreements? Their attendance figures? Their profits? Their general level of competence? They must have some motive, anyway. My theory is that they believe that it helps teach dancing, but I'm insufficiently cynical.

Besides, It's not like I'd ever have to convince a beginner that semi-circles are a good idea. Frequently, some clown on stage has done that before I even see them. I might try to convince a beginner that semi-circles can be small cute things, rather than a joint attempt to knock out other dancers who may be standing too close.

If you seriously believe that semi-circles can wreck someone's dancing.... why do you dance modern jive? Do you enjoy dancing with a crowd of supposedly wrecked dancers? Doesn't make sense.

----

Jivecat has mighty fine style.
You seem worried that I'm in the business of squashing individual styles, in favour of moulding all women into one big bouncy, swingy, signally, actively styling, obedient, Latin-hating, thigh-high-wearing crowd.
It ain't like that. Dancing is a social activity. It's enjoyable because everyone dances differently, even if they did start with the same teacher. Even if I was capable of churning out clones, which I'm not... why would I want to? What if I take some form of mind-altering drugs, and have a sudden craving for music without swung quavers? So, my desert island harem of uber-dancers will have to have lots of variety.


Say a person likes signals. Then they would want to mould the follow to like signals.

See, you try, but you're not selfish enough. If I mould my beginner to like signals, and hence like dancing with me, then I'm thinking of her pleasure. I'm much more interested in my pleasure, hence I want to mould my beginners to like performing Lindy "twist-twists", because I think they look awesome.

Except that I don't, because I get a regular diet of Lindy twists from, uh, Lindy. Also, there's the variety thing, again. If I have a dancer who does a great-looking mini-kick on her rock step, then why mess around trying to get her to twist? She might not even have the right kind of hips/ass/legs/etc for good twists. Far better to try to get her to keep the cool mini-kick thing, but somehow get her to do it in a way that doesn't involve an attempt to disconnect my left arm from the rest of my body.

----


Your teachers probably don’t view the lessons as “the opportunity to mould them as I see fit, and plant the seeds that will eventually sprout into a fantastic dancer for me.”

I remember my first Lindy weekender. Beginner Lindy classes. One of the teachers explained why they liked teaching Lindy to complete beginners - much more than teaching intermediates. Apparently intermediate come replete with preconceptions and bad habits and are barely teachable. Beginners, on the other hand, offer a blank slate, ready to be filled with great dancing skills. I've heard similar comments from other teachers - it seems a common enough emotion.

Of course, teachers are rather better at moulding than me, and they can attempt to mould someone into what they see as a great dancer across the board - not just a great dancer for them personally. Still, dancing is an art, and the evaluation of great dancing is partly subjective, so the same issues arise. Maybe one teacher believes the secret to great dancing is big aerials, whilst another believes that the secret is big semi-circles.

Personally, I'm far more worried if any of my teachers are not interested in moulding me into a better dancer. After all, that's what I'm paying them for.

Ghost
29th-November-2005, 03:21 AM
Warning: irredeemably long and meandering post coming up.
Cool. I apologise.

In my defense I know a lot of people who will visible tense up at the
"They're mine for life" quote.

So getting back to the orginal point am I right that basically we're saying

"More people should dance with beginners ~ this would allow people to give helpful advice more freely"?

But while limited people dance with beginners, then it's a good idea to give feedback more carefully and if you don't think you can do it well, then it's best left to someone who can?

Dance in beauty,
Christopher

Lou
29th-November-2005, 08:58 AM
Somehow, after all this time, all these teachers, and another two dance forms, their influence is still visible in my dancing. Funny world.
It's even more obvious in Bristol, where we have a number of different independent MJ organisations, each with their own teaching styles. I can more often than not tell where any man spent his formative early months, even many years on.


I wouldn't mind creating a harem of uber-dancers. It'd be kinda cool. Perhaps we could have costumes made, and fight crime. Or something.
I hearby resign from Whitebeard's and pvcDave's harems to join yours. But only if I can push in & jump the queue to get #1. Obviously.
BTW... the cookies & the chocolate are good extra perks, mate! :D


Seriously, Martin - I wish someone had said something to me about my appalling following. I was truly awful for many years, but I didn't know it. I was a backleader & anticipator of the highest degree. And yes, I know I still do it sometimes, but it's hard work to get rid of such entrenched bad habits, especially when I've been doing them for the larger proportion of my dance-life.

So, I agree with you. I'll cheerfully give feedback to beginners. And, ironically, in the form of something like, "It would make it easier for me if we had a looser grip when I turn. I'd find it easier to get all the way around", etc. So I'm obviously moulding them, too. :wink:

David Bailey
29th-November-2005, 10:03 AM
I wouldn't mind creating a harem of uber-dancers. It'd be kinda cool. Perhaps we could have costumes made, and fight crime. Or something.
"Martin And The Uber-Dancers" - it's like a 60's band name, isn't it?


If you consider that signals and semi-circles "wreck" dancing, I humbly suggest that you first assassinate the large number of modern jive teachers who are "wrecking" the dancing of their beginners
Hey, now you're talking. Where do we start? I can nominate a few candidates for the MartinHarper Assassination Squad...


My theory is that they believe that it helps teach dancing, but I'm insufficiently cynical.
My theory is that most MJ teachers teach the way they've been taught, at least when they start out. And the way they're taught is script- and move-based, not dance-based.


You seem worried that I'm in the business of squashing individual styles, in favour of moulding all women into one big bouncy, swingy, signally, actively styling, obedient, Latin-hating, thigh-high-wearing crowd.
Christ, now I'm worried about that too. Except the thigh-high bit of course.

jivecat
29th-November-2005, 11:28 AM
(actually, jivecat started way before me............. so I'd have to be her slave instead).

:nice: You will receive your orders in due course.


[QUOTE]I wouldn't mind creating a harem of uber-dancers. It'd be kinda cool. Perhaps we could have costumes made, and fight crime. Oooh yeah, dressing-up outfits, bags me be in it. Can we have something with lots of diaphanous floating silk & yashmaks? On second thoughts, a head to toe voluminous burka might be more appropriate in my case.



I'd love to be in someone else's harem of uber-dancers.
I think you probably are!



Everyone who interacts with beginners is going to affect how they develop as a dancer.

Most people who learn Ceroc dance with a huge range of partners of all levels. Whilst this feature probably makes it harder to pick up the basics at the beginning, it also irons out the quirks of style that one might pick up from having just a few exclusive partners or teachers. I'd be more concerned about bad habits being passed on through "moulding" if beginners only had one partner.

jivecat
29th-November-2005, 11:57 AM
And if one of these guys had decided to mould you where would you be now?

Not sure. I'm not sure that they could have moulded me - I didn't have much faith in them at the time as some of them were so mediocre that I could spot it even as a raw recruit. Mind you, I do remember wondering why I made so many mistakes with some partners and not others........
I don't know whether overall I'd be a better/worse dancer than I am now if I'd had different training. I do know that then, as now, I am very happy, (even grateful, unpleasant though it may be at the time) to accept advice, as long as I have respect for the person who's giving it.



Do you have your own style? Would you be happy to give that up?
Well, no, not now, because having spent years working it out I now believe I'm on the right track. i.e. how I can best get my body to respond to the music/partner of the moment, and which type I prefer. There are a large number of things I can't do, however, and at each stage of development I've tried to pinpoint them, and work on them. I have begun to gravitate towards a subset of partners whose styles particularly appeal to me i.e. people with a light but clear lead who enjoy being creative with moves, who respond to the music, and who expect me to follow. Partners like MartinHarper, in other words, and it's these features which he will be passing on to his protegees as well as the signals and semi-circles (can't say I've ever noticed them, BTW). They're lucky enough to be getting the benefit of them from the beginning; is anyone going to seriously question whether this is a good thing?

ChrisA
29th-November-2005, 12:04 PM
The notion that by dancing with a beginner, and doing all this moulding stuff, we can create someone so perfectly suited to us that we will love dancing with them as much as seems to have been implied, is similar to the idea of being able to learn from an encyclopaedia that one has written oneself from one's own knowledge.

Which, before Gadget comes in with his usual comment to the effect that advanced dancers can learn by dancing with beginners, is not to say that you would learn nothing by writing down everything you know.

Gadget
29th-November-2005, 01:59 PM
:rolleyes: I was not ... {although it's a good point :whistle:}
No-one moulds me appart from me. I go to teachers to learn - I learn what I see them able to teach me; not necessaraly what they are teaching.
Most of the time, the two cross over - otherwise I wouldn't learn and they would give up on me as a pupil.

I apply the same principles to everyone I dance with: If I can be a good example of dancing and leading, then it's up to them to pick up on why it's better (or worse) and what they are doing differently to make it so. If a move goes completly wrong then I may lead it BIG to get the follower to move where I want them, then lead the same move smaller so they hopefully make the association. Alternativly get them in the same move from a smoother entrance so it seems to be naturally where they would go, then repeat it with a 'normal' lead.

I got an amazing compliment last year allong the lines of "I wish I could dance with you more; my dancing would improve so much!" :blush: great ego trip, but it got me wondering why and attempting to slot some of whatever I was doing into other dances.

To the original topic; I would never verbally tell a follower that they "bounce too much" - I would lead smoothly and try to counter their bounce. Hopefully they would notice a better dance and associate it with a smoother movement. If they don't, then they don't; we still had a good dance.

stewart38
29th-November-2005, 02:06 PM
:
To the original topic; I would never verbally tell a follower that they "bounce too much" - I would lead smoothly and try to counter their bounce. Hopefully they would notice a better dance and associate it with a smoother movement. If they don't, then they don't; we still had a good dance.


One thing i find harder then a bouncer is a women that insists on going around in a circle (around me) ,where is the thread on that

jivecat
29th-November-2005, 02:10 PM
To the original topic; I would never verbally tell a follower that they "bounce too much" - I would lead smoothly and try to counter their bounce. Hopefully they would notice a better dance and associate it with a smoother movement.

Yes, good idea. I also like what Lou and Misty said - how to phrase a suggestion for improvement in positive terms i.e.
Try doing this because...... instead of
Don't do that because.......
as I think it's far less likely to give offence or damage confidence.

Gadget
29th-November-2005, 06:35 PM
One thing i find harder then a bouncer is a women that insists on going around in a circle (around me) ,where is the thread on that
:wink: lead them to your left all the time - should balance out and end up with a fairly slotted dance :whistle: (Actually it's a serious suggestion: compensate your lead for it and lead them further left than 'normal')

David Bailey
29th-November-2005, 11:05 PM
:wink: lead them to your left all the time - should balance out and end up with a fairly slotted dance :whistle: (Actually it's a serious suggestion: compensate your lead for it and lead them further left than 'normal')
Exactly - that's one of the benefits of cross-body leads, they almost force you (and your partner) to dance more slotted.

David Franklin
29th-November-2005, 11:26 PM
One thing i find harder then a bouncerWhat kind of nightclubs are you trying to get into? 'Round here, bouncers are well 'ard, that's the whole point.

While I'm being silly, does anyone else else read the thread title and think of that song by the Specials:


You bounce too much, much too strong,
you're jumping up and down
when you should be dancing smooth with me

jivecat
30th-November-2005, 09:34 AM
While I'm being silly, does anyone else else read the thread title and think of that song by the Specials:


You bounce too much, much too strong,
you're jumping up and down
when you should be dancing smooth with me

No, but I'm sure I will from now on.;) All together now..

da da dadadada WITH ME!

Trish
1st-December-2005, 11:44 AM
:wink: lead them to your left all the time - should balance out and end up with a fairly slotted dance :whistle: (Actually it's a serious suggestion: compensate your lead for it and lead them further left than 'normal')

Good idea, I'll try that. I tend to just let them dance in a circle, and follow them round - although it can make you dizzy. I did tell a friend of mine who is a good dancer in the first place, that she tended to do this. Not as a criticism, I just literally said "do you realise you tend to dance in a circle?". She said she didn't realise it, and has since stopped doing it, which has made her even better to dance with :) !

LMC
1st-December-2005, 08:43 PM
... if I do dance with a real confident bouncer I start jumping as well. If they ask what I am doing I just say "following your lead". Most of the time the men do laugh and say "do I bounce"?. I never jump around with beginners though.

I like this idea and am hereby stealing it :rofl: - thanks D!


On bouncing, there's nothing wrong with a bit of bounce in the knees when the track is bouncy. It's only when it's in the arms that it's a real problem.
:yeah:

Not many people have mentioned bouncy leads? - or maybe I've missed it skim-reading the latter part of this thread. Or perhaps it's worse when a follower bounces their hand? :innocent:

Ghost
1st-December-2005, 08:54 PM
Not many people have mentioned bouncy leads?
I did get an odd look when I did a C-bounce in the middle of an otherwise fluid dance recently - bad habit, unfortunately reinforced by attending the beginners class :blush: . She had really pretty eyes, I was distracted.... :blush:


Or perhaps it's worse when a follower bounces their hand? :innocent:
It's very hard to both bounce together the same amount (I've tried)
If you're both bouncing different amounts it all goes horribly wrong.....:tears:

Take care,
Christopher