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robd
24th-November-2005, 09:20 AM
As my dancing experience progresses I am attempting to increase my range of musical interpretation and 'hit the breaks' more often and, last night, I am pleased to report, I managed to stop at just the right point more often than not. Unfortunately the effect of this was then lost as I couldn't manage to kick back into action in time with the beat restarting (or even in time to the beat after it had restarted :( ).

Does anyone have any hints or tips on how I can improve my reconnecting to the beat?

Robert

Feelingpink
24th-November-2005, 09:33 AM
You could dance with followers who like to play and let them take the lead, at least in the short-term. The chances are, they will make some movement, perhaps very small, at the 'right' time - you know when to start moving again and everyone is happy. After a while, you'll be leading the move yourself. I think it is Nigel who says to guys that if you want to know where the break is in music, just watch the lady.

Gojive
24th-November-2005, 11:23 AM
As my dancing experience progresses I am attempting to increase my range of musical interpretation and 'hit the breaks' more often and, last night, I am pleased to report, I managed to stop at just the right point more often than not. Unfortunately the effect of this was then lost as I couldn't manage to kick back into action in time with the beat restarting (or even in time to the beat after it had restarted :( ).

Does anyone have any hints or tips on how I can improve my reconnecting to the beat?

Robert

Hi Robert,

A little exercise I used to do at home a lot, was to pick a few tracks that I knew had breaks in them. Then, I'd simply play them to death, but finger tap my way through them, practising getting both the break and 'restart' perfect. It worked for me :)

Btw, suggested tracks:

Wade in the Water
King of the Road
Business of Love

The above tracks are slow enough to give you time to hear the breaks an restarts. I find I can now do it almost instinctively.

HTH :)

Rhythm King
24th-November-2005, 11:30 AM
Hi Robert,

A little exercise I used to do at home a lot, was to pick a few tracks that I knew had breaks in them. Then, I'd simply play them to death, but finger tap my way through them, practising getting both the break and 'restart' perfect. It worked for me :)

Btw, suggested tracks:

Wade in the Water
King of the Road
Business of Love

The above tracks are slow enough to give you time to hear the breaks an restarts. I find I can now do it almost instinctively.

HTH :)

:yeah:

Listen to music. Lots of music. At first, you can count the beats between the breaks, because they tend to follow a pattern. After a while you'll tend to develop a sixth sense of how the music is structured. Then when you hear new stuff, you'll find you can frequently predict where a break will come and definitely pick it up after a full verse, or so. I listen to music in the car all the time and listen out for the breaks, the length of the break comes with knowing the music, or following the tempo and pattern to make an inspired guess. And of course, watch your partner - she'll probably know before you :wink:

Of course this all goes for a box of frogs when the DJs are playing with us and freeze the track during the break :devil:

Ghost
24th-November-2005, 01:45 PM
Does anyone have any hints or tips on how I can improve my reconnecting to the beat?

Robert
Not sure if this will make sense, but rather than 'stop - restart', do 'pause - continue'. Try this. Lead the first half of a first move and pause at the furthest part of the sweep-back (turn-out). It should feel fairly natural to continue at any point with a sweep forward. The next step is to do two complete moves (whatever you want). Now do the same two moves, but pause in between and then continue.

It's the feeling of continuation that's important rather than the actual moves. You have to maintain the energy in the pause; it's like a cat curled up waiting to pounce. This way you never actually lose the connection to the beat. You're still feeling it when you're paused.

If you stop a move on a break it can mentally jar you and you then have to re-start dancing. It's like when the DJ cuts the track early at the end, you thank the lady for a lovely dance and then he re-starts the thing again, you can get a :confused: , brain freeze, mental scramble trying to get back into the music :tears: .

I'm fond of Alan Quartermain's quote from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
"The secret is that you've got all the time in the world". Relax, don't rush and it'll flow easier. If all else fails, move your hand. Something will happen :wink:

Hope that helps,
Christopher

MartinHarper
24th-November-2005, 02:31 PM
So, suppose the music restarts on a "1", with no lead-up, and I want to start with a semi-circle and step back.

In order to step back on "1", I would have to semi-circle in silence, which doesn't seem very musical. So I don't see a problem in getting the step-back after the music has restarted, provided that it's roughly on beat.

Gadget
24th-November-2005, 02:31 PM
Similar to Ghost's post above, but when you stop on a break, you normally stop for X counts yes? just stretch the next movement to last these counts and you will be ready to continue.
Eg on the first move, if you break on the turn out, spend the next three counts getting back into the side-to side position - whether you move or your partner does.

{Semi-circle ?? :what: just lead her to step back!}

ducasi
24th-November-2005, 03:17 PM
you need to start leading just before the music comes back in, so that you're both ready to move on the next beat.

Chef
24th-November-2005, 05:53 PM
Dealing with breaks becomes a little bit tricky if you and your partner has different expectations of how to handle breaks. Most Ceroc people charge right through them as if nothing different has happened in the music, so that is what most ceroc dancers expect. So when a leader leads a stop there is a brief moment of confusion when the follower is being asked to do something they have rarely been asked to do before. Restarting after a break is also uncharted territory for them. Vice Versa when a follower in their frustration that their leader is persistantly charging through nice music does the evil thing of trying to back lead a break.


The most important thing (apart from the leader actually knowing or feeling when the restart after a break will occur) is that the follower is paying attention to the leader about 2 beats before the restart point.

Sometimes things go wrong on the restart after a break because the follower either is

a) completely dumbfounded. They have the rabbit in a headlight stare. Why has their leader stopped? He is looking at me. What should I do? I know, I will either waggle about here uselessly or I will charge at his right hand side and he will do one of those first move things. The follower is no longer paying any heed to the leader (assuming they had been at any other time) and so the leader has no way of initiating a rock step to restart after the end of a break.

b) Really looking forward to breaks because it is their chance for some serious play time. They get into their slinky hip wiggling, hair flicking, foot shine patterns any nothing will stop them until they are good and done. In the meantime the music has restarted and the leader is standing there like a lemon desperately trying to get an active connection with his “follower” all in vain because the hand is there but there is nobody home.

In case a) there is nothing you can do at the time on the dance floor. No connection exists between leader and follower during that time when the follower finds themselves in the unfamiliar territory of breaks. The followers just need training in lead and follow, musicality and breaks and hesitations. Unless they go to the workshops in Stirling held by Franck the only hope for them is to stop doing ceroc and go to dance classes where these subjects are taught, and then used relentlessly in freestyle until they find themselves cured.

In case b) the follower is a good enough dancer to hit a break in response to their leader (because they are listening to the music and have an expectation that the leader is not going to just drag them through the break) but they get so self absorbed during their play time that they stop listening to the music and don’t pick up on the musical clues that a break is about to finish. The only cure for this is for the followers to pay attention to their leader and the music at all times.

The leader needs between one and two beats to ensure that his follower is balanced, make the connection between them active again (if it had become passive to allow the follower to do their thing), lead a weight change in their partner so that when he leads the rock step so that the foot land on beat one it is the foot that he wants her to rock step on.

So the sum up is that if your follower is not paying attention to the leader two beats before the end of a break you haven’t got a hope in hell of restarting after a break because no matter what the leader does she will be late and there is nothing you can do about it.

Daisy Chain
24th-November-2005, 06:04 PM
I have become so obsessed with hitting the breaks that I have found myself inadvertently stopping dead on the Power Jogger at the gym. This is a bit of a shock as the machine continues to roll along at 15.8 kph. I guess it's my own fault for putting my favourite jive music on my iPod

Daisy

(A Fit Little Flower) - that's fit in the active sense, not the other...

LMC
24th-November-2005, 06:04 PM
Sorry Chef, but you're coming across as a bit harsh on us less experienced followers there. Icey puts that dilemma perfectly here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/guiderjo/DISC006.HTM)

One of the most important things I learnt recently (but I forget whether it was from Franck or Adam, sorry :blush: ) was the need to maintain connection during a break - even if it's only eye contact - so that you can 'pick up' the lead again.

MartinHarper
24th-November-2005, 06:31 PM
Icey puts that dilemma perfectly here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/guiderjo/DISC006.HTM)

In the Bing Bank?

LMC
24th-November-2005, 06:39 PM
Thanks for pointing that out Martin - note to self: check copy/paste has worked properly for links before it is too late to edit the post :blush: - apologies all, particularly to Icey, whose insightful remarks are in fact HERE (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=173572&postcount=26)

Ghost
24th-November-2005, 09:58 PM
Dealing with breaks becomes a little bit tricky if you and your partner has different expectations of how to handle breaks.
:yeah: to well, everything really, not just breaks. :cheers: If my partner's expecting a slow dance and I'm expecting to rock 'n roll there'll be trouble ahead... :blush:


Most Ceroc people charge right through them as if nothing different has happened in the music, so that is what most ceroc dancers expect. So when a leader leads a stop there is a brief moment of confusion when the follower is being asked to do something they have rarely been asked to do before.
I just cheat. :wink:
Either - I buffer in a second lead. If I lead a break that the follow was aware of, she normally relaxes slightly as she realises it's playtime. If I lead a break that the follow wasn't aware of, that relaxation isn't there. In effect the tension of going into the next move stays put (and can build into panic - the rabbit in the headlights look). As I lead the break, I'm concentrating on the feedback. No relaxation and I'm bailing into something else, hopefully without the follow even realising :whistle: A nice alternative is similar to riding a roller-coaster. It's that slight pause at the top just before the plunge. You just hint at the existence of the break and then flow into the next thing. Or as Gadget says, slow down part of the move. A good strong frame, eye contact and a smile to reassure the lady "I'm doing something a little different but it's all good" goes a looong way :wink:

Or, I lead something more subtle before I get to the break. Sways are good. Do it gently and I can learn several things.
1. A lot of playful ladies can't help themselves - lead a sway and that'll add in walks, stepbacks, snuggles, one lady requested a lean :wink: So it's a good bet that if I catch the break, they'll be happy to do stuff.
2. I can also lead a couple of steps with the bail-out of just push forward and turn. If they can follow steps easily, it's another good sign, they'll follow what I lead in a break.
3. And to finish I can lead out of the sway into a freeze, again with the turn bail-out. Similar info to No 2 above.

As to the more enthusiastic ladies...



b) Really looking forward to breaks because it is their chance for some serious play time. They get into their slinky hip wiggling, hair flicking, foot shine patterns any nothing will stop them until they are good and done. In the meantime the music has restarted and the leader is standing there like a lemon desperately trying to get an active connection with his “follower” all in vain because the hand is there but there is nobody home.
Hmm musicality vs a lady having fun and (hopefully) looking cool - easy choice for me:whistle:

I also view this slightly differently than most. I give beginners leeway and indeed expect some myself when learning something new. If a lady is still in the learning stage of "how to play" then it's reasonable for them to do it too short, too long, not really in keeping with the music etc. As they gain more experience, they'll improve and then guys, we'll look amazing as she struts her stuff in the break and perfectly re-engages in time for us to lead our next wonderful move :clap:

It's also worth noting that occassionally the chemistry of playfulness will totally overide the musicality. If a sexy lady wants to flirt with me on the dance floor for longer than the break - oh well, I'll try and bear it :whistle:


So the sum up is that if your follower is not paying attention to the leader two beats before the end of a break you haven’t got a hope in hell of restarting after a break because no matter what the leader does she will be late and there is nothing you can do about it.
:yeah: so either don't let it happen, or give in gracefully :wink:

Take care,
Christopher

MartinHarper
25th-November-2005, 01:56 AM
Does anyone have any hints or tips on how I can improve my reconnecting to the beat?

One useful trick is to consider a short freeze to be just another move, and lead it at random points in the music. That'll give you lots of practice at actually leading its entrance and exit, and leading it without disconnecting from the beat in the first place.

Rhythm King
25th-November-2005, 11:59 AM
Earlier this year I danced with a particular lady for the first time, to one of my favourite tracks. I hit the first break and she looked at me, raised one eyebrow and said "Oh, you're one of those, are you..." :rofl:

KatieR
25th-November-2005, 12:02 PM
she looked at me, raised one eyebrow and said "Oh, you're one of those, are you..." :rofl:


What... a good dancer? :wink:

Rhythm King
25th-November-2005, 12:17 PM
What... a good dancer? :wink:

Aw shucks! :blush:

R-K :hug:

ChrisA
25th-November-2005, 12:52 PM
Earlier this year I danced with a particular lady for the first time, to one of my favourite tracks. I hit the first break and she looked at me, raised one eyebrow and said "Oh, you're one of those, are you..." :rofl:
I had a very similar experience...

I asked for a dance, and on the break, she said "oh yes, you do those starty-stoppy things don't you".

Chef
25th-November-2005, 12:56 PM
Sorry Chef, but you're coming across as a bit harsh on us less experienced followers there. Icey puts that dilemma perfectly here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/guiderjo/DISC006.HTM)


I don't think that I was coming across harsh on less expereinced followers or for that matter more experienced follwers that get a bit self absorbed during the break. I was just stating the case.

If doing things with the breaks is not part of the mindset of the follower (experienced or not) the likely hood is that she will just flounder uselessy being confused. It's not her fault, just not something she has been exposed to much in the past. In terms or being able to successfully restart after a break, on time, you are pretty much on a losing bet. You can't teach these sorts of things on the dance floor and you can't force the issue with an overpowering lead. Just let it go. They may later feel that they want to learn more about breaks and hesitations and they will go and find a suitable teacher. If they are not interested then they won't. Such is life.

The experienced follower that is good enough to get into breaks without panic but gets a bit self absorbed while playing is doing what she has to do - playing. She is experimenting and sometimes in that process she loses track of what the music and leader is doing. When leaders are learning their craft they can be concentrating so much on the mechanics of the step that they can't concentrate on the beat. People learn in layers. Once they master one aspect of something so that it can run on autopilot in their heads they can concentrate on another aspect. In the case of our hypothetical experienced follower they have sorted out the layer of hitting the break and are working on the bit of doing something intereting during the break. The next layer is to be paying attention to the leader just before the restart point so that they can both make an orderly restart to the break. So leave her alone to go through this phase of her learning period. If she is not actively connected to her leader and paying attention to him with two beats to go to the restart then the leader trying to force the issue is just going to push her off balance. It will not help her learning process.

So if your follower is not actively connected to and paying attention to the leader with two beats to go to the restart then your chances of a sucessful restart are slim. Give in gracefully and don't let it worry you.

Trish
29th-November-2005, 04:17 PM
As my dancing experience progresses I am attempting to increase my range of musical interpretation and 'hit the breaks' more often and, last night, I am pleased to report, I managed to stop at just the right point more often than not. Unfortunately the effect of this was then lost as I couldn't manage to kick back into action in time with the beat restarting (or even in time to the beat after it had restarted :( ).

Does anyone have any hints or tips on how I can improve my reconnecting to the beat?

Robert

Hi Rob - if you're at Peterborough this week, I can try to help you with this practically. The best way I've found (I'm sure some people are going to disagree with me here, but here goes!) is backleading! If you can get the first break (say in a song like "Sway"), I can backlead you out of it for the first one, nudge you a bit for the second break and if there's a third break in the song leave you to get it yourself. If it helps I can also listen out for the breaks for you and hint very hard! The other thing I should be able to help you with is counting/listening. You can do this on your own of course, but sometimes it helps if someone points out what you're listening counting for - I went to one of Amir's musicality workshops which really helped with this (I'd recommend it if you can find one), but I should be able to tell you what Amir told us.

I agree with the people that said keep the connection going though, if you keep a bit of tension then it's easier to reconnect, as you haven't lost the connection in the first place.