Amir's First move & musicality

[ChrisA]

So what do those of you that were there think of the "Amir first move" then? :worthy:



really smooth... really nice!

Cool.



that changes from the 'bouncy' style and I like it a lot! suppose it makes more sense with tango-ish and smoother kind of music... nice to match the style of the track!

Very true, it certainly is smoother. :worthy:

In case it wasn't immediately obvious at the time, it may be of interest, particularly to the leaders, that not only is it smoother, it is also one count shorter. From step back at the beginning, to step back at the end, and not including any return you may do afterwards, the Ceroc first move is 6 counts, whereas Amir's one is 5 counts. Or to look at it another way, since the step back at the end is really the step back at the beginning of the next move, the Ceroc first move (not including the step back at the end) is 5 counts and Amir's one is 4.

Now, this has some interesting consequences for musicality. I'll illustrate it all with beginners moves that hopefully most people will know.

A Ceroc first move, a return, and the last step back (ie the beginning of the next move) adds up to eight counts in all - and stepping back on 8 does not feel anywhere near as natural as stepping back on the 1 of the next 8. Which isn't possible with Ceroc-timing for the first move, with or without a return.

Whereas, an Amir first move takes up four counts. If you then combine this with, say, two octopus exchanges, this is another four counts, and you end up stepping back on the 1 on the next 8.

Or you can do a basket using the same timing as the Amir first move, which, when linked with the Amir first move, again makes an 8 count, and you step back for your next move at the beginning of the next 8-count.

Here's another example... think of an Amir first move, a Manspin, and a return. Eight counts again.

If you dance moves in 8-count combos, it then becomes extremely easy to structure your dancing so that it fits the phrases - cos most tracks have phrases that are the same length as two 8-counts (a lot of pop and swing music has 8-bar phrases - that's 32 musical beats, or 16 counts as we think of them when we're dancing).

And when the dancing fits the phrases, it just feels soooooo much nicer than when it doesn't. :waycool:

Now before DavidB gets on my case and points out as he's done before, that there are other combinations than 4- and 8-counts that allow you to fit your dancing to the phrases, of course this is true.

As an easy example, the octopus with three exchanges followed by a return, exactly as they teach it in Ceroc classes, is 8 counts in total, stepping back for the next move after the return on the 1 of the next 8, so a couple of those would be a phrase.

A more complex example: a Ceroc-timed first move, followed by a manspin and a return adds up to ten counts. Add on another Ceroc-timed first move, and a return, and you have a whole phrase of moves, and you end up stepping back on 17, or the 1 at the beginning of the next phrase.

However, doing all this counting is hard :(. In fact, it's hard enough counting it all out when you haven't got a lady on the end of your arm, and it's much, much harder when you have. :tears:

So for dancers that are just beginning to get into thinking about dancing musically, and who want to fit their moves to the phrases in the music, first moves (and baskets) with Amir timing makes it a lot easier. In fact, if you were to start using the Amir timing for all First Moves and Baskets, you'd probably find that your dancing started to fit the phrases more often just by accident.

:cheers:

[Caro]

well thanks for the big explanation :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:
I guess you just put words on why I thought it felt 'nicer' .... :whistle:
:flower:

[ChrisA]

well thanks for the big explanation :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:
I guess you just put words on why I thought it felt 'nicer' .... :whistle:
:flower:
Ah but that's the great thing about it... it does feel nicer.

I was doing it for a while, and it felt nicer (even to lead), before I ever realised how it made other things easier as well.

All of that stuff I wrote was mostly aimed at leaders, rather than followers. For the real experts, of which I am most certainly not one, it's all so obvious that they probably don't even think about it.

For complete beginners, it probably does a LMC-style "whoosh" as it goes past at 60,000 feet.

But for some of those in-between types, who wonder why it's so difficult to make the moves fit nicely with the music, maybe it will help them.

Anyway, it's Amir's move, not mine, he's the one that deserves the credit. :worthy:

[Piglet]

Thanks for the explanation Chris - I'm just learning to lead and in freestyle my brain is still in the "panic" mode of what move shall I do next? What move have I forgotten to use? And so on... However, if I should ever develop enough to think of musicality in such a way when I lead, then I shall remember this post - thank you!:flower:

I really enjoyed Amir's First Move - in fact a guy up here has been doing it a while and when I told him it was a lovely move he looked amazed initially and said he couldn't understand it but other women had told him the same thing. I called it the Douglas move - until Amir came along that is :rofl:

I thought it was funny in the workshops at the weekend because it was the first move that Amir taught us and I couldn't help but look over at Douglas. I guess he'll have to find another special move now. :wink:

[MartinHarper]

Very true, it certainly is smoother. :worthy:

It's certainly smoother than the first move exit as Ceroc teaches it, with the "twist back" bringing the girl right back in to the man's side, and trashing her frame in the process. I don't find it inherently smoother than the first move exit as it is normally danced, or as I dance it. I guess that's a matter of taste, though.

[robd]

Not strictly related to Amir's first move but a useful way I have found of helping me to try and stop at the right points in the music is just to repeat an element of a move until I am on the beat I need to be on. For example on a first move with the lady turned out just step forward slightly then back (this process happening over 2 ceroc counts) before turning the lady out (or repeating the step forward and back if you have another 2 counts to 'kill'). A yoyo can be similar - From the leader's right hand at chest position push your arm to the right then instead of pivoting to face the follower simply return your right hand to your chest then extend to right, etc, etc until you are ready to pivot. I know this will be pretty obvious stuff to experienced dancers but I know as a new dancer it wasn't something that I considered.

Robert

[Gadget]

:confused: It's as smooth as any other move.
I honestly don't see what the big deal is about it - there are about six exits {rough count} from the first move that I change between depending on the music and what I want to do next; Can I start teaching these as alternatives and call them "The Gadget First Move (variation 1.3a)"?

Returning the follower to the shoulder/side instills a 'repeat' pattern and makes the move more balanced - especially if you use it to break on the twist out bit.
By taking the move back to the side, you have an additional close 'segment' and position that you can insert variations into; with Amar's version, the move is near enough finished from the time they step back on the twist out.

Yes, I use it (and have for years before I even heard of Amar), but I don't think it's any better or worse than several other variations on exiting the move - including the "original".

[MartinHarper]

Can I start teaching these as alternatives and call them "The Gadget First Move (variation 1.3a)"?

The naming of moves after people is hardly a new phenomenon.

[ChrisA]

Can I start teaching these as alternatives and call them "The Gadget First Move (variation 1.3a)"?

Of course you can.

Whether it's useful as a shorthand or not, depends on whether it's likely that anyone other than those in your immediate dancing circle know what you're talking about. I only mentioned it because of Amir's recent class up north.


I honestly don't see what the big deal is about it
There's no big deal. It's a nice alternative that gives rise to some interesting (to me, anyway) options arising for fitting the dancing to the music, in a way that is simple for relatively new music interpreters.


there are about six exits {rough count} from the first move that I change between depending on the music and what I want to do next
Good for you. My post was aimed at people who have one.

[CJ]

The naming of moves after people is hardly a new phenomenon.

Can we have a Harperlink giving an example??

[Chicklet]

no Harperlink I'm afraid but does the "Lydia" count??

male reciprocation widely known as the "Hancock" up here and (I'm guessing) possibly the MacGregor down there

[MartinHarper]

Can we have a Harperlink giving an example??

Afterfive:Archie Spin (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/archie_spin.html)


The Archie Spin is reputedly named after James Archibald Cronin, one of the founders of Ceroc®(tm)(c)(pp)(etc)

[Andy McGregor]

no Harperlink I'm afraid but does the "Lydia" count??

male reciprocation widely known as the "Hancock" up here and (I'm guessing) possibly the MacGregor down thereThe "McGregor move" has been re-named "The Tart" having briefly been called "The Slut". I've no idea why :confused:

[Tessalicious]

The "McGregor move" has been re-named "The Tart" having briefly been called "The Slut". I've no idea why :confused:I'm afraid that isn't allowed, unless it is actually the move called 'The Tart' on grounds that it would be confusing to those of us who frequently use one or the other. Can you go back to calling it 'The Slut' please?

And while you're at it, can you describe 'The Slut' to me so I can, erm, test it's danceability? :devil:

[Zebra Woman]

I'm afraid that isn't allowed, unless it is actually the move called 'The Tart' on grounds that it would be confusing to those of us who frequently use one or the other. Can you go back to calling it 'The Slut' please?

And while you're at it, can you describe 'The Slut' to me so I can, erm, test it's danceability? :devil:

Tess how could you forget??

:tears: :tears: :tears:

I can see I'll have to do it much more memorably for you next time.




mwahahahahaha


ZW:devil:

[Tessalicious]

Tess how could you forget??:what: :blush:

I can see I'll have to do it much more memorably for you next time.Um, OK... I can hardly refuse an offer like that can I? Consider yourself booked for a demonstration dance or three on Saturday :flower: :yum: (oh and almost certainly :drool: ).

[David Bailey]

The Archie Spin is reputedly named after James Archibald Cronin
Personally, I call that one the Move From Hell.

And naming a move after a person is both dumb (because it gives no clue as to what the move looks like) and egotistical.

[Zebra Woman]

Cool.


Very true, it certainly is smoother. :worthy:

In case it wasn't immediately obvious at the time, it may be of interest, particularly to the leaders, that not only is it smoother, it is also one count shorter. From step back at the beginning, to step back at the end, and not including any return you may do afterwards, the Ceroc first move is 6 counts, whereas Amir's one is 5 counts. Or to look at it another way, since the step back at the end is really the step back at the beginning of the next move, the Ceroc first move (not including the step back at the end) is 5 counts and Amir's one is 4.

Now, this has some interesting consequences for musicality. I'll illustrate it all with beginners moves that hopefully most people will know.

A Ceroc first move, a return, and the last step back (ie the beginning of the next move) adds up to eight counts in all - and stepping back on 8 does not feel anywhere near as natural as stepping back on the 1 of the next 8. Which isn't possible with Ceroc-timing for the first move, with or without a return.

Whereas, an Amir first move takes up four counts. If you then combine this with, say, two octopus exchanges, this is another four counts, and you end up stepping back on the 1 on the next 8.

Or you can do a basket using the same timing as the Amir first move, which, when linked with the Amir first move, again makes an 8 count, and you step back for your next move at the beginning of the next 8-count.

Here's another example... think of an Amir first move, a Manspin, and a return. Eight counts again.

If you dance moves in 8-count combos, it then becomes extremely easy to structure your dancing so that it fits the phrases - cos most tracks have phrases that are the same length as two 8-counts (a lot of pop and swing music has 8-bar phrases - that's 32 musical beats, or 16 counts as we think of them when we're dancing).

And when the dancing fits the phrases, it just feels soooooo much nicer than when it doesn't. :waycool:

Now before DavidB gets on my case and points out as he's done before, that there are other combinations than 4- and 8-counts that allow you to fit your dancing to the phrases, of course this is true.

As an easy example, the octopus with three exchanges followed by a return, exactly as they teach it in Ceroc classes, is 8 counts in total, stepping back for the next move after the return on the 1 of the next 8, so a couple of those would be a phrase.

A more complex example: a Ceroc-timed first move, followed by a manspin and a return adds up to ten counts. Add on another Ceroc-timed first move, and a return, and you have a whole phrase of moves, and you end up stepping back on 17, or the 1 at the beginning of the next phrase.

However, doing all this counting is hard :(. In fact, it's hard enough counting it all out when you haven't got a lady on the end of your arm, and it's much, much harder when you have. :tears:

So for dancers that are just beginning to get into thinking about dancing musically, and who want to fit their moves to the phrases in the music, first moves (and baskets) with Amir timing makes it a lot easier. In fact, if you were to start using the Amir timing for all First Moves and Baskets, you'd probably find that your dancing started to fit the phrases more often just by accident.

:cheers:


Excellent post Chris . :worthy:

IMO Amir's first move feels 10 times better than the Ceroc version. Your post explains very well the bit that has always confused me, the counting. Thanks, I can rest easy now.


The whole dance seems to lift a level when it is used, it feels more whoosh more feminine more slotted more musical, better in every way. I have introduced it to a few Ceroc leads and each time been blown away by the instant improvement in the feel of a their first move, I can't get enough of it.
In fact, I would be happy to spend the entire song dancing only Amir's first move, travelling returns, and Manahattans.

Really. Anyone can test me....I won't complain...:innocent:

Go on, try me. :devil:

ZW

[Paul F]

For those of us who have never done an "Amir First Move" could someone explain what the pattern is?

I think I may have done it once in the one and only jango class I have been able to make but i have forgotten now. :blush:

[Ghost]

:confused: It's as smooth as any other move.
I think that's probably more a reflection of your skill as a dancer. :wink:

What might be causing confusion is this:
I believe Amir specifically designed the move as a Gateway technique to smoothly transition from a Ceroc move into a Tango move. It's purpose is to be smooth. It's taught with the emphasis on being smooth and being danced smoothly. On his dvd he demos a truly bouncy Ceroc first move then a smooth and level Amir's first move: it's a serious contrast. But the Ceroc first move can be danced smooth and level as well. I think it's the emphasis on the move being smooth that people are commenting on and that it's perhaps easier to dance smoothly than a normal first move. (Oh and women apparently like it a lot too :whistle: - not sure if that's a reflection on the move or how badly the men are leading the normal first move though :blush: )


I honestly don't see what the big deal is about it - there are about six exits {rough count} from the first move that I change between depending on the music and what I want to do next; Can I start teaching these as alternatives and call them "The Gadget First Move (variation 1.3a)"?
Yep, just edit the "Moves, moves, moves" Online Workshop. :cheers: Just humour me, which version is The Gadget First Move (variation 1.3a)? I would so enjoy dancing it and when the lady says "What's that move called?" answer "The Gadget First Move (variation 1.3a)" :wink:

Take care,
Christopher

[Piglet]

To reply to Paul F's question, I think the following explains Amir's way, but feel free to correct me:

Step away
Step in side by side
Turn the lady out
Raise your left arm and push the lady through with your right hand on her back (not her hip - if I remember correctly)

(Don't think we used a return) :flower: :hug:

[MartinHarper]

Naming a move after a person is both dumb (because it gives no clue as to what the move looks like) and egotistical.

It's only egotistical if I name a move after myself. If I name a move after another dancer, it's more to do with respecting the contribution that people have made to the dance.

[Zebra Woman]

For those of us who have never done an "Amir First Move" could someone explain what the pattern is?

I think I may have done it once in the one and only jango class I have been able to make but i have forgotten now. :blush:

I feel like you already do it Paul, you're so smooth it's hard to judge....


I'm no expert and I don't lead this move. I think this all comes better from someone who leads it...but as I'm here I'll have a go. Correct me if I'm worng please...:sick:




The lady walks forward R (1), pivots on L (2) , and steps back on her R (3) beside you (as normal)

The difference is at this point you reach much further around her back with your R hand, and rather than drawing your L hand across your body to make her face you, you leave your L out in mid-air in front of you and her, and smoothly push her back to where she first came from. In response to your push, she returns the weight to her L (4), then steps forward on her R (5) and pivots on L (6) to face you.

A back step R,L (8) (9), can be inserted at the end, or the beginning.

I can walk it on my own and it adds up to 8. And I like that. I'm sure ChrisA will fill you in on the Mans hands/feet shortly.

Sorry I only know how to follow it. :blush:

[Ghost]

Personally, I call that one the Move From Hell.
Originally known as "Shiho Nage" :wink:


And naming a move after a person is both dumb (because it gives no clue as to what the move looks like) and egotistical.

No smilies ???

"The first move" and "basket" don't help. :tears: I can never remember which one is the shoulder drop and which is the shoulder slide. :blush:

Although I have a liking for "It's the twisty-out one" descriptions, they really don't help me much.

"Cuddles" is good though :wink:

I personally like the ones that are named after things / people, but mainly because it sounds better when you say what the move was a la 'The Gadget First Move (variation 1.3a)' than, well whatever it actually is. :wink:

Also in moderation they can help remembering the moves. I name techniques that I 'discover' in freestyle after the person I first danced it with. eg Rosiesteps and Georgia's Basket of Cuddles. :hug:

But I'm aware that too many oddly named moves just gets confusing so I also agree with you. :cheers:

Take care,
Christopher

[Paul F]

I feel like you already do it Paul, you're so smooth it's hard to judge....


I'm no expert and I don't lead this move. I think this all comes better from someone who leads it...but as I'm here I'll have a go. Correct me if I'm worng please...:sick:




The lady walks forward R (1), pivots on L (2) , and steps back on her R (3) beside you (as normal)

The difference is at this point you reach much further around her back with your R hand, and rather than drawing your L hand across your body to make her face you, you leave your L out in mid-air in front of you and her, and smoothly push her back to where she first came from. In response to your push, she returns the weight to her L (4), then steps forward on her R (5) and pivots on L (6) to face you.

A back step R,L (8) (9), can be inserted at the end, or the beginning.

I can walk it on my own and it adds up to 8. And I like that. I'm sure ChrisA will fill you in on the Mans hands/feet shortly.

Sorry I only know how to follow it. :blush:



To reply to Paul F's question, I think the following explains Amir's way, but feel free to correct me:

Step away
Step in side by side
Turn the lady out
Raise your left arm and push the lady through with your right hand on her back (not her hip - if I remember correctly)

(Don't think we used a return) :flower: :hug:

Thanks for those.

I dont mean this to sound bad but yes i do do that anyway. :blush:
When I used to teach up in Manchester this was one of the variations I taught. Didnt realise it was someone elses move otherwise I would have attributed Amir when I taught it. :blush:

Of course, I didnt teach it with exact footwork. I wouldnt be so nasty :whistle:

[Ghost]

For those of us who have never done an "Amir First Move" could someone explain what the pattern is?
There's a few descriptions of it on the forum, but....

It's one of those moves where you need to get a lot of subtlties right. I discovered a variety of ways to mess it up based on the text descriptions :blush: , and eventually got the dvd. Half an hour later of looping roughly 10 secs of play with considerable use of the pause button and a mirror and I was getting somewhere. :wink:

Probably best to try and get someone patient in the real world to show you and then try and lead it on someone who doesn't know it (gently).

As an aside, in Amir's First move the guy is suppsoed to start stepping back on his left and the girl on her right. If the girl doesn't know this and steps back on her left should I step back on
a) my left
b) my right
c) doesn't matter at all.

(Assuming I know she's going to step back on her left, rather than doing some kind of hop skip to change feet when I realise she's doing it 'wrong')
Thanks
Christopher

[Gus]

When I used to teach up in Manchester this was one of the variations I taught. Didnt realise it was someone elses move otherwise I would have attributed Amir when I taught it. :blush:It sounds like one of the many variations that Viktor used to teach in his style/moves workshops (circa 2001/2003 vintage). No doubt Ceroc may have assimilated the move from there?

Regardless of who originally came up with the goods, the fact remains that Amir's workshops contain material that can have even really good dancers spending the next 6 months trying to assimilate.

[LMC]

I'm still disappointed to have missed BOTH of Amir's last musicality workshops - even though that was for 1) another workshop 2) Southport

Are there any more "Musicality 101" workshops planned please? :flower:

[MartinHarper]

The whole dance seems to lift a level when it is used, it feels more whoosh more feminine more slotted more musical, better in every way.

I think it works very well with a certain style of MJ, based on slow music, walking footwork, smooth movement, a strict slot, and a series of 4 beat patterns to "whoosh" the lady from one end of the slot to the other. Within that style of MJ, the traditional MJ first move feels out of place and awkward.

[Cruella]

Thanks for those.

I dont mean this to sound bad but yes i do do that anyway. :blush:
When I used to teach up in Manchester this was one of the variations I taught. Didnt realise it was someone elses move otherwise I would have attributed Amir when I taught it. :blush:

Of course, I didnt teach it with exact footwork. I wouldnt be so nasty :whistle:
Jive P also teaches the first move like this, but i know he and Amir have swapped a few moves, so i couldn't say who originated it.

[Paul F]

It sounds like one of the many variations that Viktor used to teach in his style/moves workshops (circa 2001/2003 vintage). No doubt Ceroc may have assimilated the move from there?


I dont think I ever taught an official Ceroc move in the intermediate classes :grin:
Much more fun to teach moves that you just make up I think.

This is just one of those moves I do because, well, its just nicer to certain tracks. Im sure its impossible to say who originated it, whether it be this year, last year, 20 years ago or whenever.
As Deb Cantoni said once, she just names moves after the person who showed it to her.
One night at Hipsters I used a move taught to me by Mick Wenger called an 'Arm break'. Deb was quite impressed and asked me what it was called and what my name was. I told her it wasnt my move but she informed me that all she can do is name it after the person who showed it to her.
If you really have to personalise a move then this way makes sense I suppose.

[Paul F]

Jive P also teaches the first move like this, but i know he and Amir have swapped a few moves, so i couldn't say who originated it.

This may sound silly for someone who comes on the forum quite a bit but who is Jive P? :blush:

[Cruella]

This may sound silly for someone who comes on the forum quite a bit but who is Jive P? :blush: Paul Harris, Ceroc Central teacher.

[Paul F]

Paul Harris, Ceroc Central teacher.

Oh yeah, I know him. Only ever spoken to him once which is ashame. Seems like a nice guy.

[spindr]

Oh and women apparently like it a lot too :whistle: - not sure if that's a reflection on the move or how badly the men are leading the normal first move though :blush:
Probably just laziness (*)

SpinDr.

(*) only have to turn 180 degrees c/wise when exit, rather than 180 degrees ac/wise + 360 degrees c/wise :)

[David Bailey]

It's only egotistical if I name a move after myself. If I name a move after another dancer, it's more to do with respecting the contribution that people have made to the dance.
You're right. I apologise.

I should have said "dumb and sycophantic", not "dumb and egotistical". Silly me.

:whistle:

[Ghost]

You're right. I apologise.

I should have said "dumb and sycophantic", not "dumb and egotistical". Silly me.

:whistle:
Shot in the dark but.....
There isn't a move named after you by any chance :whistle: ? I seem to recall something about taking a straight-jacket nice and slowly....:wink:

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

Shot in the dark but.....
There isn't a move named after you by any chance :whistle: ?
Nope, strangely enough.


I seem to recall something about taking a straight-jacket nice and slowly....:wink:
If I ever try to teach a move with my name on it, you have my permission to shoot me.

[MartinHarper]

If I ever try to teach a move with my name on it, you have my permission to shoot me.

I've never heard Amir teach any move as "Amir's Move", or the like.

I suppose folks could call it the "Jango First Move" or somesuch. However, "Amir's First Move" sounds exotic, whereas "Jango First Move" sounds like something from a pantomime.

"Jango Bells, Jango Bells, Jango all the way"
"It's your other left!"
"Oh no it isn't!"
(etc)

[Ghost]

I've never heard Amir teach any move as "Amir's Move", or the like.

Yep, it's just "First Move" on the dvd. Right, hunt down the people calling it Amir's First Move and lock them in a room with DavidJames. :rofl:

Surely though, it's a natural thing in any art for people to evolve names to moves? My rather oblique point about the Archiespin being another name for Shiho Nage was "A rose by any other name". And indeed it's natural for the moves themselves to evolve.

Take care,
Christopher

[David Bailey]

Surely though, it's a natural thing in any art for people to evolve names to moves?
Sure - you need descriptions. But they've got to be descriptive descriptions, which work for everyone, not just everyone who happens to know Archie or whatever.

And I'm not anti-move-names - for example, a real problem in salsa is that (AFAIK) there are no consistent names for moves, apart from the obvious ones like forward basic, back basic, etc. Sometimes Rueda calls are used, sometimes teachers make the names up. A basic global dictionary would IMO be very useful for salsa.

But names have to be useful - and the very fact that everyone keeps asking "What's Amir's First Move again?" seems to indicate that it's not descriptive. So it's a dumb name, in my semi-professional (naming, not dancing) opinion*. There's nothing in that name to differentiate it from the 50-odd other First Moves.

I also think that Ceroc goes way too far with the name thing - creates a Move Monster culture, by implying that the way to improve is to learn lots and lots of moves. I mean, good grief, 600 moves? In an average dance, I doubt if I use more than 5 - 10 "moves", the rest is just freestyle.

And my original rant (about the Archie Hell Spin) was that anyone who'd not known the context would say "Wassat then?". In the case of that move, I'm very happy for it to sink into obscurity however, as all other right-thinking people should be.


I've never heard Amir teach any move as "Amir's Move", or the like.

I suppose folks could call it the "Jango First Move" or somesuch. However, "Amir's First Move" sounds exotic, whereas "Jango First Move" sounds like something from a pantomime.
Jango, for the reasons I've outlined, is also a dumb name, it's too context-sensitive.

But, if you have to have a name, how about "First move 8-beat"? That's short and descriptive, and gives two of the main points about the move - it's a FM variant, and it takes 8 beats. Does what it says on the tin.


* Working in a profession where I regularly have to try to explain dumb names for products, I've experience of what does and doesn't work.

[Zebra Woman]

Alarm bells!!

I have just realised if I am dancing to slower music and dancing in a smooth way, then when I am led Amir's First move I always step back on my right.

BUT if I am dancing with a Cerocer to faster pop music I step back on my left and do that foot thingy...(tiny invisible kick ball change dicussed at length somewhere else) .

Is there something particular the man does to lead me to step back Right instead of Left?

I am thinking yes.

I'm guessing it's a slower definite push back...rather than the quicker back -forward that happens when you 'circle and step back' in the ceroc style.


Don't know about everyone else :confused: , I think I'm consistent though. I will always step back on my left or right.

ZW:flower:

[ChrisA]

Jango, for the reasons I've outlined, is also a dumb name, it's too context-sensitive.

Who cares?

Would you have moaned as much as this if I'd originally just said "the first move variant as taught by Amir"?

It's also taught by Marc, I understand, and probably by others.

I brought it up specifically after some of the Scots had gone on a workshop that Amir had taught, while it would have been fresh in their mind, and just as a shorthand which has proved convenient, since there's some common ground for discussion.

Talk about making mountains out of molehills. :rolleyes:

[KatieR]

Jango, for the reasons I've outlined, is also a dumb name, it's too context-sensitive.


David, David, David. how is it 'too context sensitive' I think you are making stuff up just for the sake of it now. Or do you just like hearing the sound of your own posts?

Jive + Tango = Jango..... where's the problem? What are we supposed to call it?

The-politically-correct-dance-you-do-when-you-arent-doing-ceroc-but-cant-say-its-name-cos-its-toooooo-sensitive?

Or just

The dance that shall not be named...?

[Paul F]

.......
The-politically-correct-dance-you-do-when-you-arent-doing-ceroc-but-cant-say-its-name-cos-its-toooooo-sensitive?

Or just

The dance that shall not be named...?

How about following in the footsteps of a great artist and calling it the symbol


3698


:D

[David Bailey]

Would you have moaned as much as this if I'd originally just said "the first move variant as taught by Amir"?
If you'll check, I think you'll find I originally moaned about the Archie spin; that's an Official Name so I believe it deserves more moan-mileage (moanage?).

But I'm happy to moan about anything of course.


Talk about making mountains out of molehills. :rolleyes:
Names are important; they define the dance in many ways. If you don't believe me, ask CerocTM if you can describe a non-Ceroc dance venue as teaching Ceroc. :whistle:

And how many adherents would be attracted to a dance called "Hot sauce" instead of "Salsa"?


David, David, David. how is it 'too context sensitive' I think you are making stuff up just for the sake of it now.
Maybe, but you'll have to do better than that if you want to catch me at it. :na:

Context-sensitive: an adjective meaning "depending on context" or "depending on circumstances".

So, in this, err, context, the meaning is that the move name only makes sense to people who know Amir. People in Australia (for example :) ) will have no such context to use as an anchor, so it'll just be a meaningless label to them,


Or do you just like hearing the sound of your own posts?
3,600+ posts - yep, of course I do, I love it. It's taken you this long to realise that? Don't you like hearing the sound of yours then?


Jive + Tango = Jango..... where's the problem? What are we supposed to call it?
I didn't say "Jango's a dumb name", I said "Jango's First Move" is a dumb name.

And again, it's dumb because it's context-sensitive. In other words, people may ask, for example, "Who's Jango?", and will find it more difficult to understand and remember the move.

The name "Jango" to describe a concept is quite sensible, however - bit too market-y for me, but it's reasonably effective IMNSHO.

Amazingly enough, in this area I do know of what I speak - and I've had many years of misery trying to explain to users what, for example, some dumb off-the-cuff developer-inspired TLA actually means.


The dance that shall not be named...?
That's line-dancing, innit?

[ducasi]

If you'll check, I think you'll find I originally moaned about the Archie spin; that's an Official Name so I believe it deserves more moan-mileage (moanage?). I like the way in an Archie spin, you and your partner both spin under an arch formed by your arms. :nice:

[David Bailey]

I like the way in an Archie spin, you and your partner both spin under an arch formed by your arms. :nice:
OK then, what's Nigel's Secret? :innocent:

[Ghost]

I also think that Ceroc goes way too far with the name thing - creates a Move Monster culture, by implying that the way to improve is to learn lots and lots of moves. I mean, good grief, 600 moves? In an average dance, I doubt if I use more than 5 - 10 "moves", the rest is just freestyle.

Ok, serious question (or at least as close as I'm likely to get :whistle: )

If you were put in charge of Ceroc, or you started your own version, just focussing on the names aspect what would you do?

Re-name all of them, reduce the number of names etc?

Not a trick question, I'm genuinely interested. I agree with your points about the gotta learn 'em all culture and that 600 abstract names isn't particularly helpful.

I've noticed lately that the teachers aren't actually naming all the moves in the intermediate classes. Not sure why, but it's at more than one venue :confused: . I liked Tara's idea (from Buffy) of re-naming the star constellations because she couldn't remember their proper names. I'll probably end up renaming the Ceroc moves to ones I prefer...


Take care,
Christopher

[KatieR]

So, in this, err, context, the meaning is that the move name only makes sense to people who know Amir. People in Australia (for example :) ) will have no such context to use as an anchor, so it'll just be a meaningless label to them

Not once Im through with them.... :devil:

[ChrisA]

If you'll check, I think you'll find I originally moaned about the Archie spin; that's an Official Name so I believe it deserves more moan-mileage (moanage?).

I always thought it was called an Archie-spin because of the arch that's formed by the outside arms of the dancers as they go through shoulder to shoulder.

I don't think it's made any easier by the way it's taught - all this twisting of the hand malarkey as a "signal" is completely unnecessary.

The way Viktor and Mick Wenger do it (Viktor's archie being slightly more cool than Mick's, IMHO) makes it look difficult, since they kinda jump through it and make it quite spectacular.

But it can be a very smooth, comfortable move, not even very difficult, in fact, without it having to be what they do.

The right handed archie is harder, though, for the guy. For the girl it should feel no different from a travelling return.

[David Bailey]

Ok, serious question (or at least as close as I'm likely to get :whistle: )

If you were put in charge of Ceroc, or you started your own version, just focussing on the names aspect what would you do?
If I ruled the world... :D

OK, I'll bite, although this may mutate the thread beyond recognition.

I'm not sure if it's possible to just focus on move names, because they're all tied in with the Ceroc business model, and the way each class is taught. For example, it may well be part of the business model, explicit or implicit, to appeal to the geek-collector trainspotter ("movespotter" - I like that name) tendency of some men, like me, who want to "collect them all". Or wanted, in my case.

So I can't answer, except to say that I don't think it's possible to "just focus on the names aspect" - I don't believe any renaming exercise can be done in isolation, they affect everything. Which is my point, of course.

I'm happy to contribute to a "How would you change Ceroc if you were the Boss" thread if someone wants to start one though... :wink:


Not once Im through with them.... :devil:
Ah yes - you noticed how I provided an in-context example then? :innocent:

[David Bailey]

Excellent - Archie-spin moanage time!

I always thought it was called an Archie-spin because of the arch that's formed by the outside arms of the dancers as they go through shoulder to shoulder.

Really? I always thought it was called the Archie-spin because it felt like going through the arches of the gates to hell to do it.

Hmm, just goes to show how dumb the name is then, huh? :innocent:

[ChrisA]

If you were put in charge of Ceroc, or you started your own version, just focussing on the names aspect what would you do?

Re-name all of them, reduce the number of names etc?


It makes a lot of sense to name all the beginners moves, and some of the core intermediate moves, since they are the basis for practically all the others - I don't think there's any need for change there.

And for the Ceroc moves manual, it makes sense for there to be something at the top of each page, so that the teachers, bless 'em, can remember what they're doing.

But for the classes, "this is a catapult variation" is probably quite adequate, particularly since they invariably go something like "start like a normal whatever-beginners-move-it's-based-on" <STANDARD move beginners>.... and end up with "now this is where it changes".

No one is going to remember hundreds of names, no matter how the names are dreamed up.

[KatieR]

Ah yes - you noticed how I provided an in-context example then? :innocent:

Touche, Mr James, Touche! :D

[ChrisA]

Really? I always thought it was called the Archie-spin because it felt like going through the arches of the gates to hell to do it.

You can't do it, then, I take it, without it feeling awful? :D

Bless.

If a beginner follower can do a first move (Ceroc or Amir timing :innocent: ), then she can do an archie if it's led well. And a right-handed archie even more easily, since for her, as I say, it's just a travelling return.

[David Bailey]

You can't do it, then, I take it, without it feeling awful? :D

Bless.

If a beginner follower can do a first move (Ceroc or Amir timing :innocent: ), then she can do an archie if it's led well. And a right-handed archie even more easily, since for her, as I say, it's just a travelling return.
A beginner can be led into a Tunnel, a Columbian, a Tango lunge, a Manhatten or anything else with weird and wonderful names. I'll show you how if you want (he started it Miss).

But as to liking it, no, that's beyond even my superhuman powers.

[Ghost]

Good stuff (See LMC, I'm trying :flower: )
:yeah: (Which will annoy Martin if I leave it there, so I'd better add something else - you people are sooo fussy :wink: )

Sorry for mutating the thread - what is the proper term anyway - you mutate strands of DNA but not threads? You can't derail a thread. Tangle doesn't really work. :confused:

Oh, yes I remember now. The original point. Counting. I remember back as a beginner thinking,
a) Why are they making such a big thing over how many counts are in each move?
b) Why aren't there the same number of counts for each move or at least multiples?
c) Base 8. You want me to do maths in Base 8! Are you insane???!

I then got to intermediate classes where some of the moves get into double figures!

I decided that it was just something I was going to pick up subconciously, ie I'd get to a point where I'd just know that if I do an octopus now it'll end just in time for the break.

But that's me, and I can see the benefit of getting your head around dacning to the music using the Octopus and return or the Amir's moves that ChrisA suggested at the beginning :worthy:

Take care,
Christopher
(Wondering if it's too long :whistle: At least the spelling's right (I hope) - not too sure about the grammar though... :blush: )

[Tessalicious]

OK then, what's Nigel's Secret? :innocent:I don't think you're supposed to know that one - you're male, and over 25, after all... :whistle:

[David Bailey]

I don't think you're supposed to know that one - you're male, and over 25, after all... :whistle:
Is it anything like Victoria's? :whistle:

[ducasi]

OK then, what's Nigel's Secret? :innocent:
He wouldn't want me to tell you. :na:

[ducasi]

Oh, yes I remember now. The original point. Counting. I remember back as a beginner thinking,
a) Why are they making such a big thing over how many counts are in each move?
b) Why aren't there the same number of counts for each move or at least multiples?
c) Base 8. You want me to do maths in Base 8! Are you insane???!

...

I decided that it was just something I was going to pick up subconciously, ie I'd get to a point where I'd just know that if I do an octopus now it'll end just in time for the break. :yeah:

I take no notice at all of how many counts each move is, and just hope it all comes right in the end. If Ceroc was always meant to be danced "on the 1" (or 5), then all the moves would be multiples of 4 (or at a push 6) counts. But it's not.

So what if Amir's First Move takes 4 counts? If I'm not on the 1 from my last move, it's not going to help...

Someone else said (and Amir demonstrated at his workshop) you can escape out of a move almost anywhere to go into a break, or even do the break mid-move. Not all breaks need to be at the step back. In fact, they're usually the more boring ones.

[Paul F]

...... you can escape out of a move almost anywhere to go into a break, or even do the break mid-move. Not all breaks need to be at the step back. In fact, they're usually the more boring ones.


Or even use the transition points in a move.
As an example take the beloved First Move. If the guy leads the lady forward and suddenly realises there is a break approaching he can use the lady coming forward and perform a breakthrough. Essentially he will step forward, let go of the ladies hand and allow it to rest on his chest, midriff.....or wherever :blush: and break facing away from each other.
If the lady knows the break is coming too it can create really good imagery........
... man breaks up relationship with lady,
man storms past toward the door
lady is left abandoned with one last stroke of the mans body before he is
gone forever....

Its bringing a tear to my eye :tears:


:rolleyes:

[Zebra Woman]

... man breaks up relationship with lady,
man storms past toward the door
lady is left abandoned with one last stroke of the mans body before he is
gone forever....

Its bringing a tear to my eye :tears:


:rolleyes:


But what happens next Paul?


Does he realise his mistake?
Can she forgive him?
Do they live happily ever after?
Does she find a better dancer near the door and carry on dancing with him?
Dancing with him every week on and on in front of him...
Does he ever get over it?

:tears: :rofl: :tears:

[David Bailey]

Does he realise his mistake?
Can she forgive him?
Do they live happily ever after?
Does she find a better dancer near the door and carry on dancing with him?
Dancing with him every week on and on in front of him...
Does he ever get over it?


- Does she go back on the left or the right?

[clevedonboy]

c) Base 8. You want me to do maths in Base 8! Are you insane???!


Learn to Lindy! The basic patterns are all 6 or 8 counts with your feet doing the counting - the rest just flows from there and will fit the music (well if your feet can do the work on their own, which for some reason mine don't most of the time :blush: ).

One stupid thing I keep doing wrong is forgetting to triple step after a return - the move is complete but you still have to triple to get back onto the correct foot. Such discipline seemed daft to me when I was just dancing MJ but I now understand a bit more.

I don't count beats though when I'm dancing MJ - perhaps i'll start thinking about that now

[azande]

OK then, what's Nigel's Secret? :innocent:
How are we supposed to know if it is a secret? :D

[David Bailey]

Learn to Lindy! The basic patterns are all 6 or 8 counts with your feet doing the counting - the rest just flows from there and will fit the music (well if your feet can do the work on their own, which for some reason mine don't most of the time :blush: ).

The obvious point (but hey, I'll make it anyway) is that most pop music is based around 2-, 4- or 8-beat rhythms, so many moves are based around 8-beats because that's a convenient number of beats to fit a reasonable move into.

The problem I had with salsa was that the music and the dance really didn't fit so conveniently into that rhythm pattern, so it took a long time for me to get used to it. But once you do get used to different styles, you can find that you naturally apply more flexibility to MJ dancing.

Having said that, one of the main benefits (hence my suggested name) of this First Move variation is that it does fit conveniently into 8 beats.


How are we supposed to know if it is a secret? :D
The yaks just keep on coming, don't they :rolleyes:

[JamesGeary]

You're right. I apologise.

I should have said "dumb and sycophantic", not "dumb and egotistical". Silly me.

:whistle:

No way! I used to see someone come up with and master a new move and then I would name if after them whenever I taught it. Credit where credit is due. If the move really was cool then the name would stick and would be how the move was known. I certainly wasn't being syncophantic!! Its because of people who try things and experiment that the dance progresses and evolves! If you were going to call things what they looked like then they would all be called 'Spin' or 'Dip' or 'Step back and then Forward'.

Funniest thing I ever heard was a move X and Y came up with and it got called X's move and was taught everwhere in Australia and NZ. X & Y were in Australia and someone was teaching X's move, and proceeded to tell them they were doing it wrong and how they should do it, not realising they were talking to the originators!! There is definitely something to be said for credit where credit is due!

[David Bailey]

No way! I used to see someone come up with and master a new move and then I would name if after them whenever I taught it.
And you think that helped the hundreds of people who hadn't had your own personal experience of seeing that move done by that person? It's just a label - and attaching a person's name to it makes it much more difficult to envisage that move or differentiate that move from the 449 other moves in the Official Phone Book.

As a teacher, you should try to put yourself in the shoes of your students. And as a student, if you don't know Fred, how on earth are you supposed to remember what "Fred's move" is all about? Or, "First move, Fred's variation"?


Credit where credit is due.
I've no problem with attibuting credit - "I first saw this done by XXX" or whatever. But I'm talking about using nomenclature to make it easier for the punters to understand. And attaching people's names to moves does not do that, in my opinion; it makes it more difficult to learn.

Or in other words, if you don't want people to remember or use a move, put someone's name on it. :devil:


If the move really was cool then the name would stick and would be how the move was known.
Names have inertia, sure. Which is why it's a really good idea to make them useful in the first place, or you're stuck with stupid ones.


If you were going to call things what they looked like then they would all be called 'Spin' or 'Dip' or 'Step back and then Forward'.
Or.. Catapult, Pretzel, Teapot, Cerocspin, Hatchback, Sway, Basket... Face it, most Ceroc moves have names which at least try to present a visual image to the learner in as concise a manner as possible.

And the reason why the vast majority of moves do have descriptive names is because it makes the moves easier to learn - as Ceroc HQ is not being run by a bunch of fools. Ceroc HQ spend a lot of time defining moves and move names - do you really think they don't think about the names with care?

[Yogi_Bear]

The lady walks forward R (1), pivots on L (2) , and steps back on her R (3) beside you (as normal)

The difference is at this point you reach much further around her back with your R hand, and rather than drawing your L hand across your body to make her face you, you leave your L out in mid-air in front of you and her, and smoothly push her back to where she first came from. In response to your push, she returns the weight to her L (4), then steps forward on her R (5) and pivots on L (6) to face you.

A back step R,L (8) (9), can be inserted at the end, or the beginning.[/COLOR]

:
Interestingly, this has made me aware how I have been moving further and further away from leading anything resembling a standard Ceroc/MJ first move for years. I seem to have absorbed moves like this from Nigel and Nina's MJ and blues classes, in particular, and from Lindy Hop, and maybe added my own variations....so mostly I end up leading a slingshot type move or rotate and turn it into a jive swingout or a whip...

[ducasi]

Or.. Catapult, Pretzel, Teapot, Cerocspin, Hatchback, Sway, Basket... Face it, most Ceroc moves have names which at least try to present a visual image to the learner in as concise a manner as possible. Can you explain how a Cleaver looks like a cleaver? Or a Wurlitzer looks like a wurlitzer? Or even how an Octopus resembles an octopus?

Memorable names, sure, but very few are (to me) visually indicative.

I don't see a problem naming moves after people... Looks at Chemistry or Physics – almost everything is named after someone or other and that seems to work for them...

[Gadget]

Can you explain how a Cleaver looks like a cleaver? Or a Wurlitzer looks like a wurlitzer? Or even how an Octopus resembles an octopus?
"Cleaver" is more the long swing with the arm - as if it held a clever and you wanted to chop something off :what:
"Wurlitzer" is about spinning when turning.
"Octopus" is all about arms everywhere.
"Yo-Yo" is about sending out and returning.
"First Move" is based on the natural "Ballroom" hold and the common move with just about every dance there is.
"Comb" combs your head.
"Teapot"... ask Piglett :innocent::rofl:
Most of the rest simply describe what they do.

[ducasi]

"Wurlitzer" is about spinning when turning. But what has that got to do with a Wurlitzer (that any other spinny/turny move doesn't also have?)

[Gadget]

But what has that got to do with a Wurlitzer (that any other spinny/turny move doesn't also have?)
Cos the lady is moving round the man and there are spins in it. There is also the 'wave-like' momentum to the move whiel turning move|block|move|block|move|block|move :shrug: Don't ask me - I didn't make the names up - I'm only trying to understand them. :sick:

{Never did like the wurlitzers on the fairground: all that spinning out of control... give me the dodgems any day: control freak? me? :innocent:}

[ducasi]

Isn't that a waltzer? A Wurlitzer is a jukebox. According to Wikipedia:

Wurlitzer is the common name for band organs or orchestrions, vintage band organs and jukeboxes produced by the Rudolph Wurlitzer Company. Do love waltzers though... All that spinning... :D

[David Bailey]

Cos the lady is moving round the man and there are spins in it. There is also the 'wave-like' momentum to the move whiel turning move|block|move|block|move|block|move :shrug: Don't ask me - I didn't make the names up - I'm only trying to understand them. :sick:

{Never did like the wurlitzers on the fairground: all that spinning out of control... give me the dodgems any day: control freak? me? :innocent:}
Hey, no-one said you have to like the moves :)

For example, the Tunnel is (mostly) a classic Move From Hell - but the name is reasonably evocative, in that the man does indeed create a tunnel with his arms for the lady to go through.

As for the Cleaver, I always think of it as the neckbreak, and to me that's very evocative - OK, not very pleasant, but evocative :innocent:

[Piglet]

"Teapot"... ask Piglett :innocent::rofl:
Not til I've asked Gadget *puzzled*
Unless he's hinting that I'm the handle and he's the spout :rofl: :rofl:

[Gadget]

One Amar's workshops on the sunday?

[robd]

At a standard ceroc night last night one of the intermediate class moves, called either 'First move pull through' or 'First move pull under' was taught. It was v similar to Amir's (or whoever's) first move variant. Step back, Lady to shoulder, turn her out but as you do so man should pivot on his right so he is at approx 10 o clock to the turned out lady. Then simply pull the lady through under a raised left arm as you clear the slot. Of course, being a standard ceroc night a return was added on making it one count longer but the similarities were very strong and I suspect the reason for the pivot was simply to indicate to the lady that she shouldn't come back in to the shoulder following the turn out - not that any ladies would dream of doing this without being lead to do so of course.

Robert

[ChrisA]

One Amar's workshops on the sunday?
Who is this "Amar"?

Is he any good?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Who is this "Amar"?

Is he any good?If you've never heard of Amar, you're clearly not ready to try any of his moves.

When you *are* ready, he will come to you.

[Gadget]

{a distant relation to Amir :whistle:}

[David Franklin]

{a distant relation to Amir :whistle:}Well you know how the song goes:


When he does Modern Jive,
so the first move takes five,
that's Amor

[David Bailey]

I believe Amir specifically designed the move as a Gateway technique to smoothly transition from a Ceroc move into a Tango move.
Yes - I've been working my way through the excellent Jango DVD (full review when I'm finished), and this is the first of three gateway moves he describes.

My description, for what it's worth:

Step away (no semi-circle, just push)
Step in side by side, and turn the lady out as normal - but your right hand is on the lady's right hip (at least, that's.what the DVD says)
Raise your left arm and push the lady under and back (clockwise) to the starting point


The left arm should not be leading - it's simply there as decoration, the main lead should come from the right hand on the lady's hip.

Effectively, the lady is doing a full 360-degree clockwise turn with a pause in the middle - so you could call it "First move continuous" or something if you wanted an action-based description.

I haven't yet got to the bit in the DVD where they actually do Tango from it, so I'm guessing here, but I'd assume one benefit of this is that it "strongly encourages" the lady to go back on her right foot, in slotted way. Which presumably then makes it easier to lead things like tango-y forward and backward walk steps.


At a standard ceroc night last night one of the intermediate class moves, called either 'First move pull through' or 'First move pull under' was taught ... Of course, being a standard ceroc night a return was added on
:rofl: Thus completely invalidating the whole point of the move, which is to get into a slotted tango-ready state..

[Caro]

Step away (no semi-circle, just push)




From what I remember :blush: at the workshop, I think the guy doesn't step away but forward (lady back as usual), hence eliminating that 'elastic' aspect of ceroc as both step away to step back in on the next beat; and giving a 'smoother' aspect to the dance, hence getting ready for a more tango-ish style ...

[Whitebeard]

Of course, being a standard ceroc night a return was added on making it one count longer .........

Interestingly, last night's beginner class started with an Armjive push-spin into a Yo-yo. But, the return was omitted so that the partners' caught R to R after the spin and straight into the Yo-yo. That felt distinctly odd and quite tricky to do cleanly. (I arrived a little late so missed any introductory preamble there might have been.) The return after the Yo-yo was then hijacked to go into the Shoulder drop.

And elsewhere, the other week, 'bouncing' was mentioned from the stage as being undesirable. (Unfortunately from a teacher who, to my eyes, is somewhat guilty of this himself.)

[Lou]

Interestingly, last night's beginner class started with an Armjive push-spin into a Yo-yo. But, the return was omitted so that the partners' caught R to R after the spin and straight into the Yo-yo.

I was going to ask that if you have a push spin, do you need a return? But then I realised that the push spin would be clockwise, so yes, going straight into the Yo-Yo from that would be awkward, especially for a beginner lady. I wonder why they didn't put a return straight after the catch R-R?

[David Bailey]

From what I remember :blush: at the workshop, I think the guy doesn't step away but forward (lady back as usual), hence eliminating that 'elastic' aspect of ceroc as both step away to step back in on the next beat; and giving a 'smoother' aspect to the dance, hence getting ready for a more tango-ish style ...
Hmmm... no, he definitely steps back at the start of the move.

There are three "gateway-to-tango" move variations described in the DVD, and one does involve a mambo-style step forward at the end - maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Admittedly, he specifically states that the guy goes back on left, lady goes back on right - which makes sense given that the weight transferrance should be mirrored as with tango - but the leader definitely steps back at the start.

Buy the DVD! :)


Interestingly, last night's beginner class started with an Armjive push-spin into a Yo-yo. But, the return was omitted so that the partners' caught R to R after the spin and straight into the Yo-yo. That felt distinctly odd and quite tricky to do cleanly.
I'm guessing here, but was that because the follower's hand dropped a bit much during the spin, so you had to fumble a bit to get into a yo-yo position? For a yo-yo, the arm grip and hand position might feel more natural after a return.

[ChrisA]

Hmmm... no, he definitely steps back at the start of the move.

For heavens sake, for one who steadfastly refuses to go to any of Amir's lessons, you set yourself up as a hell of an authority.

Ok, so you've got the DVD, cool.

For the record, Amir teaches his first move both ways, sometimes with a step forward, sometimes with a step back at the beginning. It's very likely that Caro's remembering it quite correctly.

[Night Owl]

Hmmm... no, he definitely steps back at the start of the move.

There are three "gateway-to-tango" move variations described in the DVD, and one does involve a mambo-style step forward at the end - maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Admittedly, he specifically states that the guy goes back on left, lady goes back on right - which makes sense given that the weight transferrance should be mirrored as with tango - but the leader definitely steps back at the start.

Buy the DVD! :)


I'm guessing here, but was that because the follower's hand dropped a bit much during the spin, so you had to fumble a bit to get into a yo-yo position? For a yo-yo, the arm grip and hand position might feel more natural after a return.



Great DVD

but nothing beats Amir giving the work shop in person

Highly recommended:clap:

[Lou]

I'm guessing here, but was that because the follower's hand dropped a bit much during the spin, so you had to fumble a bit to get into a yo-yo position? For a yo-yo, the arm grip and hand position might feel more natural after a return.

No. It's definitely the direction of the follower's spin that makes it awkward.

If you think about where your hand would end up when you catch her after her spin, following her momentum, you're likely gonna find it slightly further across your body, on the left side of your bellybutton. This also means she's very likely to have her weight back on her right foot. And, to catch her after her spin, you'll probably want to offer your palm towards her (although some men grab her hand into a standard "shake hand" hold, which isn't so elegant, IMO). She'll naturally want to unwind, and you'll want to unwind her by moving your hand back horizontally to centre it (before, most likely, raising it to lead her into a return).

However you've instead chosen to go into a Yo-Yo, so you move your hand vertically to your left shoulder. It doesn't return to the centre, which is unexpected! And, if your arm is slightly twisted, due to the way you've offered your hand, you'll need to also twist it to start that Yo-Yo. So, potentially both of these movements are unexpected, so it's very likely to feel quite jarring & tricky to both of you.

[David Bailey]

For heavens sake, for one who steadfastly refuses to go to any of Amir's lessons, you set yourself up as a hell of an authority.
Err, I was referring to the move shown on the DVD - thought that's what we were talking about? I could be definite about what he did on the DVD, of course, because if was open in another window on my PC :)

Sorry if I misunderstood, but the description sounded so much like the one on the DVD, I assumed it was the same. Or did I grasp the wrong end of the stick again?

Are there two "Amir first move" moves then? :confused: of Finchley

But yes, to clarify: he definitely steps back in the first tango-gateway move (no name given) in the Jango DVD. I've no knowledge as to whether he steps back at any other time. Ever.

[robd]

In his Camber workshop he definitely taught that FM variant with a step back for the men too. But, as Chris A says, the chances are he will teach it with different entries on different occasions. It's the exit from it (and its difference to a standard Ceroc FM) that everyone seems to be so excited about.

[Caro]

For the record, Amir teaches his first move both ways, sometimes with a step forward, sometimes with a step back at the beginning. It's very likely that Caro's remembering it quite correctly.

:yeah: thanks :flower:

Doesn't really matter which way it was taught during the workshop or on the DVD though, the more I think of it, the more I believe that if the aim is to achieve a smoother style and try to have a tango-ish style, then it makes more sense for the guy to step forward to go with the lady rather than away from her (ceroc 'elastic' style with a tendency to become bouncy style). no?

[Clive Long]

:yeah: thanks :flower:

Doesn't really matter which way it was taught during the workshop or on the DVD though, the more I think of it, the more I believe that if the aim is to achieve a smoother style and try to have a tango-ish style, then it makes more sense for the guy to step forward to go with the lady rather than away from her (ceroc 'elastic' style with a tendency to become bouncy style). no?
I currently love those walk in same direction / mambo type things - and if the lady cottons on, repeat but with no hand contact, just looking at each other - the most "charged" and intense move I know at the moment - there is nowhere to hide - it's just you and your partner concentrating on each other - scary stuff !

Woger

[ChrisA]

it makes more sense for the guy to step forward to go with the lady rather than away from her (ceroc 'elastic' style with a tendency to become bouncy style). no?
I'm not sure it makes a difference in smoothness. If you had your eyes shut but still provided a little compressive resistance in your arm, so that you didn't move until you felt the lead, I'd suggest that it should feel the same (assuming you didn't get anywhere near the limit of the arm stretch by taking steps that were too big).

Visually, of course, and from Sparkles' thread here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7219), I think there's evidence that even with a good connection, body language adds much to lead/follow, and you wouldn't experience it the same with your eyes open.

But the bounce that people talk about is in an up/down direction, and it should be absent whether the guy steps back or forward.

[Baruch]

Hmmm... no, he definitely steps back at the start of the move.
...one does involve a mambo-style step forward at the end ...
Admittedly, he specifically states that the guy goes back on left, lady goes back on right - which makes sense given that the weight transferrance should be mirrored as with tango - but the leader definitely steps back at the start.
Hang on.... David James discussing which is the correct foot to step back on? Are my eyes deceiving me?

Lou, are you taking note? :whistle:

(He's not quite redeemed yet though - of course men should step back on right, women on left :innocent: )

[ChrisA]

Hang on.... David James discussing which is the correct foot to step back on?
Sorry, I don't understand this particular use of the word "discussing".

[Baruch]

Sorry, I don't understand this particular use of the word "discussing".
OK, perhaps "commenting on" or "mentioning" might be a better term. The point is, he's not rubbishing the very concept, which is new territory for him.

[Gadget]

No. It's definitely the direction of the follower's spin that makes it awkward.
I don't know how it was taught, but I can think on two ways of going from a follower's free-spin (clockwise) into a yo-yo without a return;

- make sure the lead steps in to recover and slow the follower, then lead a step back (so you can dictate where the follower's weight is) to come in again folding the arm. Timing to catch early enough, but avoid being clobbered by a spinning partner is the key to this.
I think that this is the easiest option.

- Catch and step in to the follower's right (lead's left) in the folded position so you eliminate the step, return, step. This requires really good following and a really good lead - there is every chance that the follower will over-rotate and be out of alignment with the lead. The lead also needs to do this without un-ballancing the follower in the latter stages of their spin.


Does Amir teach the yo-yo with elbow above? I'm sure someone mentioned that's where they had seen/learned it.

[David Bailey]

OK, perhaps "commenting on" or "mentioning" might be a better term. The point is, he's not rubbishing the very concept, which is new territory for him.
Blimey, all I did was talk about what I saw on the DVD...

Which, frankly, I actually prefer to a class, because:

I can take it in sections
I can do it at my own time
I can pause / rewind as required
I can practise until I get right
I can do in the comfort of my own home


Anyway, as for the fascinating footwork debate, you're right, I don't care, it's not important. What matters is weight transfer, connection and getting into a tango-ready position. At least, that's what I think, I could be wrong, I haven't managed to get any further with the DVD yet :(

[Baruch]

Blimey, all I did was talk about what I saw on the DVD...
Yeah, but I couldn't resist... :whistle:


Anyway, as for the fascinating footwork debate, you're right, I don't care, it's not important. What matters is weight transfer, connection and getting into a tango-ready position. At least, that's what I think, I could be wrong, I haven't managed to get any further with the DVD yet :(
Actually, I do agree. And isn't the DVD great? No chance of me getting to an actual Jango class in the near future, but the DVD is the next best thing.

[ducasi]

Blimey, all I did was talk about what I saw on the DVD... I think the main problem is you said, without reference to the DVD, that he "definitely" steps back, when in reality, this is not always so.

I, too, have studied this on the DVD, comparing it to what I was taught at Amir's workshop last year...

On the DVD, there's always a step back. At the Beach Ballroom weekend (that both Caro & I attended), in one of his MJ musicality workshops, this was how he taught it. But in the Jango workshop we were taught we could also step forward when we were using his first move variant (in fact, it works for pretty much all moves, I guess.)

The absence of the step forward from the DVD I put down to it being a recent evolution of Jango, but I could be wrong...

[David Bailey]

I think the main problem is you said, without reference to the DVD, that he "definitely" steps back, when in reality, this is not always so.
Yes, that was pretty dumb. I was watching the DVD when I posted, so I was thinking exclusively of that, and didn't make it clear what I was referring to in my post. That'll teach me not to try and walk and chew gum at the same time.


On the DVD, there's always a step back.
Ah, but do you know that for sure? I mean, he might do something different the next time you watch it... :devil:

[ducasi]

Ah, but do you know that for sure? I mean, he might do something different the next time you watch it... :devil:
AFAIK, IMHO, YMMV, E&OE, offer void where prohibited by law.

[Lou]

...two good ways to help the follower...
Good points, Gadget. I never meant to imply the return was mandatory, just to explain why Whitebeard felt that the transition between the moves was awkward. I'd imagine both your alternatives achieve a similar result, but as I'm in the middle of the office, I'm not going to walk them through....

btw.. nice footwork DJ :flower:

[Caro]

I'm not sure it makes a difference in smoothness.

no indeed, if well lead the smoothness is probably the same, but visually if you want to 'look' tango then I still believe it's better for the guy to step forward, with the lady (that's only if a tango style is the aim).


But the bounce that people talk about is in an up/down direction, and it should be absent whether the guy steps back or forward.

yeah I know that's what people refer to when they say bouncy, but sometimes I find that there is also a 'horizontal' bouncy style, i.e. over stretching your arm as you step back (something I have noticed in some beginners / low intermediates but that tend to disparear quickly anyway because it makes the dance so much more difficult/awkward); and stepping back really far away from each other.
I know the basics in ceroc is 'step in, step back' and hence that 'elastic' or 'horizontal bouncy' style is inherent to ceroc; but I must say I like it only to a certain extend - personal taste I guess - and I think when I'm dancing I tend to stay pretty much on the spot rather than doing a real step back (but hey I haven't seen me dancing so I may be totally wrong :rolleyes: ).

[David Bailey]

no indeed, if well lead the smoothness is probably the same, but visually if you want to 'look' tango then I still believe it's better for the guy to step forward, with the lady (that's only if a tango style is the aim).
Well, I very much hope that a tango style is the aim on the Jango DVD (Just to clarify, I'm talking about the DVD, OK? The DVD. Nothing else. Just that.), but he steps back...

I tried it a bit both ways last night, and it felt slightly better to me stepping back - stepping forward made it a bit more awkward for me when bringing the lady back. But it'll need a lot more practice before I can lead either variation smoothly - at the moment, the lady is rotating too much on the finishing bit, so we're a little out of line for entering any tango-y moves.

EDIT: I can't believe I've been sucked into discussing first move footwork :eek:

[ducasi]

Well, I very much hope that a tango style is the aim on the Jango DVD (Just to clarify, I'm talking about the DVD, OK? The DVD. Nothing else. Just that.), but he steps back... As I said, I'm guessing the step forward is a more recent evolution in Jango – I believe that Jango is still officially "under construction"...

I tried it a bit both ways last night, and it felt slightly better to me stepping back - stepping forward made it a bit more awkward for me when bringing the lady back. ... I can't remember the details, but I think there was some subtlety to the step-forward variation which might fix this problem...

[Caro]

Well, I very much hope that a tango style is the aim on the Jango DVD (...), but he steps back...

this can also be a way of making a smooth transition between ceroc and tango... i.e. stepping back as in ceroc but exiting the move differently... :flower:

[David Bailey]

this can also be a way of making a smooth transition between ceroc and tango... i.e. stepping back as in ceroc but exiting the move differently... :flower:
Yep, and that's how it's presented (on the DVD! :rolleyes: ) - as a gateway move from MJ to AT.

I'm now onto West Manhattans on the DVD, 45 minutes down so far...

[Rhythm King]

Yep, and that's how it's presented (on the DVD! :rolleyes: ) - as a gateway move from MJ to AT.

I'm now onto West Manhattans on the DVD, 45 minutes down so far...

I'm a great fan of the West Manhattan, but prepare to be amazed at the number of mid-intermediate Ceroc-ers who effectively throw themselves at the floor as you turn anti-clockwise and start the first promenade. They just leave their feet where they are and lean backwards as you start to walk :what:

I have had this happen on a number of occasions and as a result have studied the way I lead the move minutely. To that end I'm happy with the lead I give, it just seems to come down to misinterpretation (or perhaps anticip








ation :devil: ). It never happens with any of my regular partners, or people who naturally follow well. When room permits, I try to include it when dancing with people I don't know, both as an interesting move and to provide me with a little aid to assessment of their following, for the reason above. If the West Manhattan works well, I know I can start to lead other interesting stuff.

All I'm trying to say is, if you do the move with someone you don't know - watch out for your back and expect the unexpected!

R-K

[David Bailey]

I'm a great fan of the West Manhattan, but prepare to be amazed at the number of mid-intermediate Ceroc-ers who effectively throw themselves at the floor as you turn anti-clockwise and start the first promenade.
Spooky - I got exactly that when I tried it on Wednesday, twice in fact.

(The second time, I felt like yelling "It's not a drop, OK! I never do drops!" :rolleyes: )

Similarly, with the Rumba step, so many followers just canter along whilst you're clearly leading a slow down (at least, I hope I'm clearly leading it, I could just be totally ambigous and fooling myself).

All those moves are great anticipation traps, in fact... :whistle:


All I'm trying to say is, if you do the move with someone you don't know - watch out for your back and expect the unexpected!
Good tip, and I'm glad it's not just me :whew:

I'm now itching to practise my sway-ocho-things on an unsuspecting partner, to see what happens there. :)

[LMC]

:rofl: & :blush: - guilty as charged, I nearly threw myself at R-K at the last FL (does that mean I'm mid-intermediate? :clap: - v. happy with that) Luckily, I am a very good girl and retain control of my own weight :innocent: (so no injury done except to my ego :blush: - but I would have felt worse if I'd broken you R-K, sorry for that hairy second!)

I would love the opportunity to go thru' that West Manhattan with one of you guys and perhaps we can pinpoint why us iggerant followers are mis-reading the lead? - advanced dancers obviously don't, and people who know the move don't. Because I fall into neither category maybe I can throw some light :flower:

[robd]

I'm a great fan of the West Manhattan, but prepare to be amazed at the number of mid-intermediate Ceroc-ers who effectively throw themselves at the floor as you turn anti-clockwise and start the first promenade. They just leave their feet where they are and lean backwards as you start to walk :what:

I like this move also and am feeling more confident in my leading of it now. I have yet to experience anybody thinking it's an L, D or S but a number of people do think it's a zig-zag walk (as I belive it's termed by Ceroc) which has the same intro but instead of walking in the same direction after the initial reverse and face the pattern is reverse-face-reverse-face-reverse-face, etc which can actually be a nice move but not as smooth as a WM and can be a bit 'evening all' as the knees start to bob with the constant changes of facing direction. I suspect it is taught at a few evenings around Ceroc Central (I recall Mick Walker did it as part of a very nice routine at a Neots freestyle a few months ago) as that tends to be where I do all my dancing and that is where the followers who have assumed that is the move I wish to do tend to dance regularly. Of course someone who dances a bit more widely geographically speaking (hello Cruella) follows it perfectly :clap: (assuming I don't **** up the lead :sad: )



...When room permits


Yes, kinda rules it out until the last hour or so of many freestyle nights. That and many other 'walking' moves :(

Robert

[David Bailey]

I wonder if the WM following-problem (OK, possibly the WM leading problem :) ) is that MJ followers just aren't used to taking two steps back in succession?

It seems simple enough in concept; step back on one beat on your left, then step back on your right on the next. But that simple walk backwards tends to throw a lot of MJ-ers off, and requires some serious leading.

Is there a mainstream MJ move that involves a backwards walk for the follower?

[Rhythm King]

but a number of people do think it's a zig-zag walk (as I belive it's termed by Ceroc) which has the same intro but instead of walking in the same direction after the initial reverse and face the pattern is reverse-face-reverse-face-reverse-face, etc which can actually be a nice move but not as smooth as a WM and can be a bit 'evening all' as the knees start to bob with the constant changes of facing direction.

Yup, had that too! It least it's less painful than an unexpected "suicide drop". I try to use gentle finger-tip pressure on the follower's back to smooth this out, but some people don't respond to this and then it comes down to grinning and bearing it and subsequently sticking to mainstream moves. It doesn't make them a bad person...


Is there a mainstream MJ move that involves a backwards walk for the follower?

Michaela has taught a number of travelling moves, such as Colombians and variations, her version of the "Paso Doble" (different to Simon R's lovely move of the same name), but they involve turning as well as stepping. Normal Manhattans go back and forth. You may have hit on something here...


I am a very good girl and retain control of my own weight (so no injury done except to my ego - but I would have felt worse if I'd broken you R-K, sorry for that hairy second!)

You're forgiven - especially as you held your own weight :flower: (But someone got me last weekend, so have kept a low profile for a week :tears: )

Happy to go through some of these evolutions with you

R-K

[David Bailey]

Michaela has taught a number of travelling moves, such as Colombians and variations, her version of the "Paso Doble" (different to Simon R's lovely move of the same name), but they involve turning as well as stepping. Normal Manhattans go back and forth. You may have hit on something here...

Hey - :waycool: - still, if I post enough stuff, I'm bound to be right occasionally :)

Nope, I can't think of any "standard" moves that involve the follower just walking backwards for more than one step. Or forwards, for that matter. I'm excepting cross-body leads and that sort of thing - I don't really see them as being the same sort of thing.

Can anybody else think of any?

[Tessalicious]

Nope, I can't think of any "standard" moves that involve the follower just walking backwards for more than one step. Or forwards, for that matter... Can anybody else think of any?How about the 'First Move Strider'? - that well-known beginner's variation of the first move where the lady has stepped back so far (and the guy doesn't move in) that the lady has to take at least two steps to reach the hip-to-hip position.

Does that count? :devil:

[LMC]

I learned a 7-league* Step Across last night, where a tall guy took his step back so far that I had to take THREE steps forward. Luckily he was such a beginner that it took him three beats to lead it, so the move worked :na:

[Ghost]

I'm a great fan of the West Manhattan, but prepare to be amazed at the number of mid-intermediate Ceroc-ers who effectively throw themselves at the floor as you turn anti-clockwise and start the first promenade.

R-K

I don't yet know if this is a hard and fast rule, but I've found it as a good guideline so far...

At the beginning of the move when you're in kind of Manhatten position but side to side, do a couple of mambo steps forward and back first and watch how much weight the lady puts on her right foot. If she really steps forward, then in my limited experience, she'll follow the turn rather than go for a dip. If she's more tentaive and does more of a Ceroc light step back, light step forward in the mambo stage, I'll bail out at this point with a cw (man's perspective) turn finish as she steps back.

Or lead Amir's first move and see if they follow the exit like they've done it before. If they do, they'll probably do the W Manhatten ok (in my limited experience).

Hope that helps,
Christopher

[LMC]

I'm a great fan of the West Manhattan, but prepare to be amazed at the number of mid-intermediate Ceroc-ers who effectively throw themselves at the floor as you turn anti-clockwise and start the first promenade. They just leave their feet where they are and lean backwards as you start to walk :what:
I have seen the light!

Amir went through West Manhattans last night.

DJ has the right of it IMO: a stronger LH frame from the leader is the answer - a really clear "BACK" signal.

From the follower's POV: if I overturn, the guy's RH in the general region of my shoulder blade, together with his step forward on his left does feel like a drop/seducer lead to the uninitiated. So perhaps for the leader, if you're not sure about your follower, the answer is to provide that really firm LH lead (to prevent overturning) and slightly loosen the RH hand-shoulder connection. Basically, you don't want to end up in the "T" position which screams "drop" to less experienced followers - however that happens :)