Lead - invite or command?

[Ghost]

For the sake of simplicity, two styles of lead can be considered
Command – the moves are lead unequivocally
Invite – the lead suggests possibilities for the lady to chose from

I’m interested in the viewpoints of people who lead using either style (or a blend of the two) as to why they like it. I'd also like to know what followers think of the styles. I’m not however saying that one is better than the other. Just interested in different perspectives.

Thanks,
Christopher

[TiggsTours]

For the sake of simplicity, two styles of lead can be considered
Command – the moves are lead unequivocally
Invite – the lead suggests possibilities for the lady to chose from

I’m interested in the viewpoints of people who lead using either style (or a blend of the two) as to why they like it. I'd also like to know what followers think of the styles. I’m not however saying that one is better than the other. Just interested in different perspectives.

Thanks,
Christopher
I think you'll find that, as with life, women prefer to be asked what they would like to do, as opposed to being ordered around! However, if the guy asks nicely enough, we will generally always do what is really wanted, although we all like to use the element of surprise occassionally.

[Chef]

As a leader I work towards the invitational style. Different followers react to the invite at different speeds but it is never really productive to yank a woman around just because she is unable to react in time to stay on the beat of the music. You would just end up pulling the woman off balance and that gives her even more to worry about rather than reacting to my lead. I am always reflecting on what my lead is doing (am I offering the invitation at the right time, is it as clear and unambigous as it could be....big list....) I only rarely come across other dancers who really think about what they are doing and why (the forum is not representative of the dance scene in general).

I see many times a week how the command style of leading just creates a wrestling match that is unproductive for either party.

As long as leaders yank and crank follwers then the follwers will yank and crank back. As long as followers yank and crank the leaders and the leaders put up with it then it will all persist.

The yank and crank stuff seems to be the biggest barrier to relaxing dancing that I have come across.

I have no idea how to break the cycle though.

[Chicklet]

variety is the spice of life for me! some of each please, because command doesn't have to mean off balance yank and crank

[LMC]

The yank and crank stuff seems to be the biggest barrier to relaxing dancing that I have come across.

I have no idea how to break the cycle though.
Unfortunately, not an option for a leader, but as a follower, I've found the best way to deal with yank & crank is to go spaghetti-armed - maintaining just enough tension that I don't get my shoulder dislocated. And I refuse eye contact. The look of disgust I got from one guy at Hammersmith after a dance like this was priceless :rofl: - but he also didn't "bother" me again. Sorted.

Of course, what I should have done was tell him. But sometimes life is just too bloody short.

Unfortunately, it's not always made clear in classes that the lead should be an invitation - which means that some guys get really cross when you improvise.

[Ghost]

I see many times a week how the command style of leading just creates a wrestling match that is unproductive for either party.

Interesting points. :cheers:

What about at higher levels of skill though? ie where the leader is perfectly matching the follow's motion, balance etc, but is definitely leading move X, with incredible smoothness and aplomb?

I've noticed that a lot of (all?) the taxi followers I've danced with seem to prefer the command style in freestyle after they've just finished taxiing, provided it's done smoothly.

Be Well,
Christopher

[ducasi]

Unfortunately, not an option for a leader, but as a follower, I've found the best way to deal with yank & crank is to go spaghetti-armed - maintaining just enough tension that I don't get my shoulder dislocated. And I refuse eye contact. The look of disgust I got from one guy at Hammersmith after a dance like this was priceless :rofl: - but he also didn't "bother" me again. Sorted.

Of course, what I should have done was tell him. But sometimes life is just too bloody short. An inspiration to taxi dancers everywhere!

Just kidding (again!) :hug:

Invite – the lead suggests possibilities for the lady to chose from My understanding of an invitational lead is that it shouldn't be leaving the lady possibilities to choose from beyond "yes" or "no".

Sure the lady can always at an appropriate moment choose to do her own thing, but then it should be by the lady very deliberately stealing the lead, and not because the guy's lead leaves her guessing what to do next.

[tsh]

For the sake of simplicity, two styles of lead can be considered
Command – the moves are lead unequivocally
Invite – the lead suggests possibilities for the lady to chose from


This reads to me as if you've mis-understood the way these terms have been used. A lead should always be an invitation to the lady, but that does not mean that there needs to be any uncertainty about what you wish her to do.

To me, the invitation is initiating the movement - and then allowing your partner to move themselves to the desired location, where you invite her to stop - rather than forcing her to move in a specific way.

Sean

[ducasi]

I've noticed that a lot of (all?) the taxi followers I've danced with seem to prefer the command style in freestyle after they've just finished taxiing, provided it's done smoothly. So following beginners turns good followers into masochist followers who need a strict lead?

Who'd be a taxi dancer?

[tsh]

So following beginners turns good followers into masochist followers who need a strict lead?

Who'd be a taxi dancer?


Who said they were good to start with??? A firm lead isn't the same as a harsh lead though - they may just prefer a much stronger connection, which is better for some moves.

Sean

[David Bailey]

MJ does allow a leader to pretty much "force" a move - which is possibly one of the worst things about MJ - py pulling and pushing. And, OK, sometimes in a class situation you need to do this; you've got to do a set series of moves after all, so there's not much invitation involved.

But in a freestyle, surely a lead has to at least aim to be invitational? Dance is a conversation, so I've heard (like, 2,400 times), not a set of military orders. Where's the fun in just ordering a person around all the time? (OK, let's not go upstairs on that one :innocent: )

[Andreas]

Invitation ... just sometimes you have to be more persistent than other times :wink:

Suggestion would be another word, perhaps more appropriate than invitation. As you are trying to suggest to the follower that the move you have in mind is the natural thing for her to do. :whistle:

[Ghost]

(LMC) An inspiration to taxi dancers everywhere!
:yeah: Taxi's everywhere rise up and burn the t-shirts :clap: ( and stop confusing me over this whole dancer / driver business :wink: )


My understanding of an invitational lead is that it shouldn't be leaving the lady possibilities to choose from beyond "yes" or "no".
An example I was shown was a travelling return, where the lady had the option of doing a body ripple rather than spinning - so more an A or B rather than yes / no.


Sure the lady can always at an appropriate moment choose to do her own thing, but then it should be by the lady very deliberately stealing the lead,
Ah, that would cover my above point wouldn't it :blush:

It’s still an option though, whereas I think the command style doesn't allow / want choice of moves on the ladies part? What I was thinking of was along these lines
Man to lady “Look I’ll give you the dance of your life, but you have to let me lead the whole thing. I’ll do it gently, smoothly and it’ll be great, {but you’ll mess it up if you start doing your own thing *}. Just trust me and enjoy the dance” and for it to actually be true.

*Ok if he’s got any sense he won’t actually say this part.

Invitational (I knew I should have used a thesaurus, but suggestive dancing seemed even worse :blush: ) would be more along the lines of having a conversation, allowing the lady options and ‘space / moments’ which she can use how she wants eg the travelling return / body ripple .

I think that the ‘drawback’ of the invitational style is that you give up possibly the greatest advantage you have – your lead. Imagine a game of cards where you could chose exactly what cards went to who. Depending on your mind set this is either wonderful, boring, or somewhere in between. The invitational style is inherently riskier – you don’t know what TiggsTours ‘surprises’ are :wink: . I guess it depends where you stand on surprises.

I was also thinking that it might actually be relaxing for a lady to just have a dance where's she's simply led. Particularly if they're tired, or not too confident, or you know just want to :flower: ?

Be Well,
Christopher

[Ghost]

But in a freestyle, surely a lead has to at least aim to be invitational? Dance is a conversation, so I've heard (like, 2,400 times), not a set of military orders. Where's the fun in just ordering a person around all the time? (OK, let's not go upstairs on that one :innocent: )

Ok I'm gonna either have to learn how to use the search engine without geting 20 pages of answers or start taking notes when I read the archives. I'm sure some people were saying that the whole "Dance is a conversation" metaphor was wrong (for them).

As for the fun in ordering someone around - well if you think it'll be a better* dance, why not? :wink:

* for a given value of better

Be Well,
Christopher

[ducasi]

An example I was shown was a travelling return, where the lady had the option of doing a body ripple rather than spinning - so more an A or B rather than yes / no. At the hijacking workshop I was at yesterday, Franck told us the two easiest places for a woman to "do her own thing" was during a free spin – there's no connection to tell her anything different – and during a turn, e.g., a travelling return – as at this point the lead cannot be commanding or else you'll end up breaking fingers. So, I'd say that during every travelling return the lady has options, no matter how commanding the guy is. The speed of the track probably matters more – how easy it is to stop in mid flow to do something clever.


It’s still an option though, whereas I think the command style doesn't allow / want choice of moves on the ladies part? I think it's always an option, as no matter how commanding the lead, there's always times where the connection is weaker which will allow "options".

What I was thinking of was along these lines
Man to lady “Look I’ll give you the dance of your life, but you have to let me lead the whole thing. I’ll do it gently, smoothly and it’ll be great. Just trust me and enjoy the dance” and for it to actually be true. I defy this guy to have a dance with {insert name of your favourite hijacker} and stop her hijacking. Of course, if it really is a fabulous dance then maybe the lady won't want to hijack. (I think I've found as I've got better, some ladies have been less inclined to do their own thing, though some have become more so... :D)

Invitational (I knew I should have used a thesaurus, but suggestive dancing seemed even worse :blush: ) would be more along the lines of having a conversation, allowing the lady options and ‘space / moments’ which she can use how she wants eg the travelling return / body ripple . I try to make every dance I have "invitational", but at the same time I don't ever expect my follower to do anything other than what I led them to do. And I hope that in my lead I'm only ever inviting one particular move, while at the same time allowing the lady to ignore my lead and lead herself to do something different.

I think that the ‘drawback’ of the invitational style is that you give up possibly the greatest advantage you have – your lead. Imagine a game of cards where you could chose exactly what cards went to who. Depending on your mind set this is either wonderful, boring, or somewhere in between. The invitational style is inherently riskier – you don’t know what TiggsTours ‘surprises’ are :wink: . I guess it depends where you stand on surprises. While losing the lead can be frustrating, especially as occasionally (I think) I'm in perfect time to execute some fancy flourish bang on with the music, and the lady knocks me out of this – but more often than not the girl is doing something even better than I had thought of (and no wonder, she doesn't have as much to think about.)

But maybe you're right – I like nice surprises.

I was also thinking that it might actually be relaxing for a lady to just have a dance where's she's simply led. Particularly if they're tired, or not too confident, or you know just want to :flower: ? Even in an invitational lead, there should be no thinking required. The intended lead should always be clear and if she doesn't want to take any of the other open doors, then that's fine. In fact, I'd guess the majority of dancers wouldn't even see the other possibilities (they're almost always a surprise to me!)

But I think we need to be clearer in our terms. There's strong leads and weak leads. (And a range of possibilities in between.) And then there is the range of confusing leads up to clear leads.

Leads should always be clear. Confusing leads require guess-work from your follower, and can lead you into unexpected positions. But the strength of the lead can vary according to the (current) mood of the song, your partner, how tired you are, how confident you are. I usually aim somewhere in the middle between "assertive, but not over-powering" and "gentle, but not weak".

Would you say that your invitational vs. commanding leads fit into these factors, or do you see it as a third factor?

[Ghost]

At the hijacking workshop I was at yesterday,Franck told us the two easiest places for a woman to "do her own thing" was during a free spin – there's no connection to tell her anything different – and during a turn, e.g., a travelling return – as at this point the lead cannot be commanding or else you'll ending breaking fingers. So, I'd say that during every travelling return the lady has options, no matter how commanding the guy is. The speed of the track probably matters more – how easy it is to stop in mid flow to do something clever.
Useful to know. :cheers:

In my example, either
a) it would be understood that the lady would just do what was implied by the move eg just do one free spin – possibly because they know each other
b) the commanding lead would avoid moves that the lady could hijack

I believe it’s possible to lead a traveling return that the lady has to follow regardless. It’s beyond my ability to explain how it works – sorry :blush: . Effectively you make her forget that any other moves exist for a moment.



I try to make every dance I have "invitational", but at the same time I don't ever expect my follower to do anything other than what I led them to do.

Sounds like you need to dance with TiggsTours then...:wink:


And I hope that in my lead I'm only ever inviting one particular move, while at the same time allowing the lady to ignore my lead and lead herself to do something different.

That's pretty much what I had in mind for "Invitational" dancing


– but more often than not the girl is doing something even better than I had thought of (and no wonder, she doesn't have as much to think about.)

But maybe you're right – I like nice surprises.

Me too. :clap:


Even in an invitational lead, there should be no thinking required.
Sorry ‘thinking’ is a bad choice of word. What I mean is that compared to a pure follow, if she wants to improvise and play there can be a greater demand on her as she has to partly lead herself (does that make sense?). Of course playing can be quite relaxing too :wink:


The intended lead should always be clear and if she doesn't want to take any of the other open doors, then that's fine. In fact, I'd guess the majority of dancers wouldn't even see the other possibilities (they're almost always a surprise to me!)

But I think we need to be clearer in our terms. There's strong leads and weak leads. (And a range of possibilities in between.) And then there is the range of confusing leads up to clear leads.

Leads should always be clear. Confusing leads require guess-work from your follower, and can lead you into unexpected positions. But the strength of the lead can vary according to the (current) mood of the song, your partner, how tired you are, how confident you are. I usually aim somewhere in the middle between "assertive, but not over-powering" and "gentle, but not weak".

Would you say that your invitational vs. commanding leads fit into these factors, or do you see it as a third factor?

So tempting just to go “Third factor”. :whistle:

Ok I’ll have a go,
Leads should be clear – definitely.
Confusing leads. They’d need to be an extremely good leader / dancer for it to work. It’s a similar mindset to using the false pretzel on someone who doesn’t know it. I suspect they’d have a pretty limited range of follows to chose from if the entire dance was confusing. Ceroc as a challenge – “what is he trying to lead me to do?” Could be fun for advanced followers, I suppose?

As to the strength of the lead, I think the commanding style at high levels isn’t about force and instead is more about precision. The move is led so cleanly that there’s nothing else it could be. I guess it would feel assertive, but in reality is over-powering, the lady just wouldn't realise.

For the invitational style, I'd go with your description of your dancing. :clap:

I guess the commanding style is more about the lady trusting the man, whereas the invitational style is more about mutual trust? Or possibly the commanding style is more about the man having the responsibilty whereas in the invitational style it's shared? Or both.

Great concepts, Ducasi :cheers: Looking forward to your reply,

Take care,
Christopher

[ducasi]

Great concepts, Ducasi :cheers: Looking forward to your reply,Um... :blush: I was going to wait until a knowledgeable female had her say... :blush:

I'll have a go...

You seem to be saying that the difference between invitational and commanding is along the axis of strength of lead, somewhere around the two points I try to keep my lead within: "assertive, but not over-powering" and "gentle, but not weak", with the commanding lead slightly more strong than I would normally use. Yeah?

I'm told my lead these days is a lot stronger than it was a few months ago, so maybe in another few months I'll be able to use a more commanding lead and be able to impress the girls a new way. :wink:

When I think of a confusing lead, I don't think of something like a false pretzel, which is still lead clearly, but can surprise the lady... I'm thinking more of the confusion of "is this a hatchback or a yo-yo"? :confused: – as the result of not being able to signal (sorry to use that word!) the difference properly. I sometimes find dancers confuse my yo-yos for hatchbacks. Hopefully they never mistake my hatchbacks as yo-yos, or something's going really wrong – I do lead them very differently, but I guess I need to be clearer in my handhold for the yo-yo.

Going way back to the travelling return example... It you're leading it with a greater "stir", I guess it becomes harder to break out of that, but there's also a greater danger you'll unbalance your partner.

Anyway, what was the question???

Oh yeah, preferences... Well anything that takes the pressure off me, I'm all in favour of! That said, some music just doesn't lend itself to interruption. Up-tempo, really kicking songs that you've just got to go for, there's no time for the girl to do much different without phasing me totally – every time the girl does something different I may have to re-work my next few moves from scratch and I won't have that much time!

(For the techies in the audience, it's like an unpredicted branch in a processor – the current execution queue has to be flushed and re-filled.)

As for trust... it makes me think of the sort of "lead" needed to do drops and dips. Without a strong connection your partner will not trust you to go into the dip. I don't think I have enough experience of following to comment further though.

Anyway... hope that reply wasn't a disappointment. :flower:

[Ghost]

Um... :blush: I was going to wait until a knowledgeable female had her say... :blush:
Opps.


I'll have a go...
That's the spirit :clap:


You seem to be saying that the difference between invitational and commanding is along the axis of strength of lead, somewhere around the two points I try to keep my lead within: "assertive, but not over-powering" and "gentle, but not weak", with the commanding lead slightly more strong than I would normally use. Yeah?
Kinda. It's also a mindset. You seem to want the lady to be able have the choice to lead her own thing - this to me is invitational. Commanding would be if you didn't.


I'm told my lead these days is a lot stronger than it was a few months ago, so maybe in another few months I'll be able to use a more commanding lead and be able to impress the girls a new way. :wink:
Always nice to have options :cheers:


When I think of a confusing lead, I don't think of something like a false pretzel, which is still lead clearly, but can surprise the lady... I'm thinking more of the confusion of "is this a hatchback or a yo-yo"? :confused: – as the result of not being able to signal (sorry to use that word!) the difference properly. I sometimes find dancers confuse my yo-yos for hatchbacks. Hopefully they never mistake my hatchbacks as yo-yos, or something's going really wrong – I do lead them very differently, but I guess I need to be clearer in my handhold for the yo-yo.
Gotta love the irony of our being confused over confusing leads. :whistle: I get what you mean though and in that case, no I don't think either of the styles want it. The only difference is that an invitational dancer would probably be less annoyed if it happened (I think).


Going way back to the travelling return example... It you're leading it with a greater "stir", I guess it becomes harder to break out of that, but there's also a greater danger you'll unbalance your partner.
That'd work I guess. Presumably the truly skilled have better ways....


Anyway, what was the question???
:rofl:


Oh yeah, preferences... (Ok you get to be the first person who's reply I actually snip - it's all good useful stuff :clap: )


Anyway... hope that reply wasn't a disappointment. :flower:
Not only worth waiting for, but cheered me up from the rather dark post I've just done. :cheers:

Thanks,
Christopher

[robd]

Unfortunately, not an option for a leader, but as a follower, I've found the best way to deal with yank & crank is to go spaghetti-armed - maintaining just enough tension that I don't get my shoulder dislocated.

I have to say that from my very limited experience of dancing with you LMC that your arm tension has been among the lightest I have experienced :clap: . This feels great if, as a lead, you prefer the Jill Gascoigne approach but if a leader is used to applying a stronger lead he may confuse your lightness of touch with spaghetti arms and try to force a response from you which, in turn, leads to you really going for the spaghetti arm approach. Not saying that this is a reasonable approach from the lead, just that it may happen and that it may be more beneficial to tell someone that they are leading too strongly to see if they will adjust their approach. But then this is easy for me to say without ever having followed a lead myself.

Robert

[Cruella]

But then this is easy for me to say without ever having followed a lead myself.

Robert
Sorted, i'll lead you in the lunch break on sunday.:D I like to fulfill wishes where possible!

[robd]

As long as leaders yank and crank follwers then the follwers will yank and crank back. As long as followers yank and crank the leaders and the leaders put up with it then it will all persist.

The yank and crank stuff seems to be the biggest barrier to relaxing dancing that I have come across.

I have no idea how to break the cycle though.

:yeah:

I don't like yank and crank - who does? - and this is one of the reasons I prefer slower music. Faster tracks seem to end up with a lot more push pull between follower and I than I would prefer which is probably an indictment of my leading more than the music's tempo but the end result is still not pleasant.

I have knowingly yanked foillowers a couple of times in the past and am ashamed to recall both situations.
1 - A regular partner was completely off the ball, disengaged, backleading, etc, etc and frustration got the better of me. Only for 10 seconds or so but still inexcusable
2 - A beginner who was very sweet and clearly keen to learn but who had the strongest grip I have yet experienced. Because I had been nice to her during our first dance and told her she must ask people to dance or risk being left on the sidelines she subsequently asked me about 3 times that night, none of which I refused. However she was painful to dance with and I kept pointing out to her that she really needed to relax herself and her grip. Improvement for 2 or 3 seconds then back to before. To try and illustrate the problem I gave her a taste of her own medicine so to speak and really yanked her through 3 or 4 moves. Again, inexcusable and of course it didn't have the desired effect. I haven't seen this lady since (it wasn't a regular venue of mine) but have decided now that if we dance together again I will simply play musical statues if her hold becomes overpowering. No idea if this will work any better but certainly will be less painful for both of us.

Robert

[LMC]

At my private lesson with DavidB (on lead & follow of course) one of the major improvement points I identified for my dancing was to "match the pressure". Rob - I found you to be a light lead :nice: - which meant that my following was equally light. But IMO, and from memory, the connection was good because our respective frames were sufficient. I certainly enjoyed our dances :flower: (& thanks for feedback, always appreciated).

There is so much on other threads on frame that I'll shut up now... because others have put it so much better than I can - where IS DavidB when you need him?

Oh, and :blush: Perhaps I should have clarified that my appalling behaviour at Hammersmith was with an obviously experienced dancer - I'd be much nicer to an obvious beginner, honest

[Trish]

For the sake of simplicity, two styles of lead can be considered
Command – the moves are lead unequivocally
Invite – the lead suggests possibilities for the lady to chose from

I’m interested in the viewpoints of people who lead using either style (or a blend of the two) as to why they like it. I'd also like to know what followers think of the styles. I’m not however saying that one is better than the other. Just interested in different perspectives.

Thanks,
Christopher

As a lead, I think I fit more into the "Command" category than then "invite" - although I don't yank and crank, I do tend to like to be precise and directional so the lady knows where she's supposed to be going. This probably comes from dancing with beginner ladies, who often get worried if they have to make it up as they go along rather than following. However, I am very open to the lady taking over, I dance with a lot of girls who take over altogether, and one or two who just decide they want to do something else at a particular point in my leading, in which case I'll just let them get on with it until they decide to let me lead again. I think if any lead was completely invitational the dance wouldn't go anywhere at all - and I also like to try to work on my musical interpretation, so therefore need to lead specific things.

As a follow, I like a good "commanding" (but gentle) lead. If the lead is neither good nor commanding, then I will start to muck about and do my own thing, as otherwise the dance doesn't go anywhere. I love it for example when some guy (often my friend DJ :worthy: - no, not David James - I've never met him as far as I know) leads the dance beautifully with the music, using interesting moves, which fit in with the tempo/style of the song etc. Occasionally I have danced with guys who have invited you to "play" when they want you to, but I often don't like this, as I need inspiration rather than being told to play - if that bit of the music doesn't inspire me, then I can't think of anything to do and feel uncomfortable! However if they lead gently and are open to me taking over for a bit when I do get inspiration, then this is great.


A beginner who was very sweet and clearly keen to learn but who had the strongest grip I have yet experienced. Because I had been nice to her during our first dance and told her she must ask people to dance or risk being left on the sidelines she subsequently asked me about 3 times that night, none of which I refused. However she was painful to dance with and I kept pointing out to her that she really needed to relax herself and her grip. Improvement for 2 or 3 seconds then back to before. To try and illustrate the problem I gave her a taste of her own medicine so to speak and really yanked her through 3 or 4 moves. Again, inexcusable and of course it didn't have the desired effect. I haven't seen this lady since (it wasn't a regular venue of mine) but have decided now that if we dance together again I will simply play musical statues if her hold becomes overpowering. No idea if this will work any better but certainly will be less painful for both of us.

Have had this experience many times when taxiing. I will tend to tell them I'm going to remind them every time they are gripping too hard, and get them to focus soley on that, rather than worrying about the steps etc. This works about 90% of the time if you do it like a game, and challenge them not to grip etc. I have occasionally showed them what gripping hard feels like, very quickly, but often even when they understand this, they are so nervous it doesn't really help. If they are back leading, then I will definitely stop, and wait till they've finished (sometimes a whole move!), and then ask them politely if I can lead now?! This does tend to stop them! It's a difficult thing, and I have met ladies (and guys come to that), that however many times you tell them will probably never stop gripping. I've never felt yanked by you Rob - I always found you pleasant to dance with. Oh, and if you want to practice following, let me know next time you're in Peterborough :cheers: .

[David Bailey]

I love it for example when some guy (often my friend DJ :worthy: - no, not David James - I've never met him as far as I know)
You're not missing much.


Occasionally I have danced with guys who have invited you to "play" when they want you to, but I often don't like this, as I need inspiration rather than being told to play - if that bit of the music doesn't inspire me, then I can't think of anything to do and feel uncomfortable! However if they lead gently and are open to me taking over for a bit when I do get inspiration, then this is great.
As a leader, if I do offer "playtime" (and normally I don't, I'm too stingy), I try to always ensure I have a Plan B, so if my offer is ignored I can carry on with that move, without it looking too obvious.

I generally want to avoid "standing looking at each other waiting for someone to do something" moments if possible.

Which is why I generally only offer with dancers I feel completely confident with - i.e. I know they will take the offer, play, then clearly hand back control to me, without any loss in smoothness.

[Ghost]

Occasionally I have danced with guys who have invited you to "play" when they want you to, but I often don't like this, as I need inspiration rather than being told to play - if that bit of the music doesn't inspire me, then I can't think of anything to do and feel uncomfortable! However if they lead gently and are open to me taking over for a bit when I do get inspiration, then this is great.

Sounds like you'd enjoy dancing with Ducasi :wink:

Interesting insights, thanks.:flower:

Which brings me to the concept of switching styles. Eg say the lead starts off from a very invitational style, invites to play etc and it becomes clear the lady isn't interested and may even be getting uncomfortable, then the lead could switch to Ducasi's style of invitational which would seem to suit Trish. Or if the lady was defintiiely "No, I just want to be led", they could go further to commanding style. I think.

Take care,
Christopher

[Icey]

As a leader, if I do offer "playtime" (and normally I don't, I'm too stingy), I try to always ensure I have a Plan B, so if my offer is ignored I can carry on with that move, without it looking too obvious.

I generally want to avoid "standing looking at each other waiting for someone to do something" moments if possible.

Which is why I generally only offer with dancers I feel completely confident with - i.e. I know they will take the offer, play, then clearly hand back control to me, without any loss in smoothness.

I've had the lead handed over a few times and I'm only just starting to get the hang of it. There's usually a moment of Eh? What? Ermm? Oh OK! and then I don't know what to do anyway so it all goes a bit pear shaped.

I hope to get better at this but there's not too many leaders out there that will give me the oppotunity. It's that vicious circle thing, I find it difficult to develop my own 'play' style when I don't get much oppotunity. I suppose it goes back to the 'dance is a conversation' thing as it's not that much fun being talked at and not having the chance to reply if you're having a great dance. Make any sense whatsoever? Or am I just rambling?

[MartinHarper]

variety is the spice of life for me! some of each please, because command doesn't have to mean off balance yank and crank

That's pretty much how I feel when I follow. The great thing is that I can get that variety across the evening, by dancing with several people. So, if individual guys/gals are always "commanding", or always "invitational", that's fine by me.

I reckon the difference is to do with what happens when the girl lags behind a lead to, say, move forwards. This might be because she's off balance from a spin, or because the lead was given too early. It might be because she's following "actively". This will normally result in slightly increased pressure. An invitational lead will react to this by cancelling the lead. A commanding lead will react to this by matching pressure.
A good commanding lead won't match pressure indefinately, though, because that would risk yanking and injury.

[Magic Hans]

I've noticed that a lot of (all?) the taxi followers I've danced with seem to prefer the command style in freestyle after they've just finished taxiing, provided it's done smoothly.

Be Well,
Christopher

As a taxi in Nottingham, I feel that this can be tricky. Take an inexperienced follower, who is, perhaps, on her 1st or 2nd night, and is struggling.

I suggest that one of the big weaknesses in the CEROC learning model is that leading/following is taught, at best inadequately, at worst, not at all. As a result, this is left up to taxis (and 'pseudo taxis'!) and for the beginners to pick it up themselves.

When dancing with a more experienced follower, I can metaphorically 'mumur' or 'whisper' my lead, which will, then, ellicit a response.

The same strategy with an inexperienced follow will generally result in them stopping, and giving a quizzical "did I do something wrong?" look. This achieves nothing.

[controversial mode on!]

As a result, I occasionally find myself having to very nearly 'bully' my follower (sometimes with my spare hand) into where I want them to go (hopefully without any undue pressure to joints in particular.

My intention is for their body to learn the various moves and sequences that are being lead, in order to become more familiar and comfortable with them. And hopefully to learn to 'listen' more to the lead.

On occasions where I have had to 'bully', I always try to illustrate a simple aspect of lead/follow by getting them to spin me.

To date, unless people aren't being totally straight with me, I generally get thanked for my time.

[robd]

I have knowingly yanked foillowers a couple of times in the past and am ashamed to recall both situations.

2 - A beginner who was very sweet and clearly keen to learn but who had the strongest grip I have yet experienced. ..... I haven't seen this lady since (it wasn't a regular venue of mine) but have decided now that if we dance together again I will simply play musical statues if her hold becomes overpowering. No idea if this will work any better but certainly will be less painful for both of us.


Went back to the same venue last night and am very pleased to report that the individual mentioned above is significantly lighter of touch now and much, much more pleasant to dance with. It must be the wonderful taxis at that venue....:worthy:

Robert

[LMC]

[QUOTE=Icey]Spookily familar stuff...QUOTE]
:yeah: :rofl:

I'm just starting to get to grips with not feeling like a complete lemon if the leader invites me to play - but I'm not very inventive yet :blush: My wiggling has improved no end though :D - I'll think of something else after another 12 or so style workshops...