What is Aussie Style? [Archive] - Ceroc Scotland Forum

cerocmetro

7th-November-2005, 04:42 AM

OK, it's probably a silly question, but I've done a search and I can't find any details of what this actually is. I know Simon Borland's done a few workshops on it, but I don't know if he's defined it? And whether his definition is accepted?

From reading posts from people such as Nessa and Adam, it seems there's a definite difference in MJ dance styles and cultures in Oz (and NZ) to the culture in the UK.

From these, I would assume that Aussie style / culture differs from UK style (whatever that is) in that it has:
- More emphasis on energetic moves (aerials, drops, etc.)
- Lots of sequences
- Typically younger crowd
- Competitive environment (boo)

But these are basically wild guesses and assumptions - does anyone have any facts or a link to a definition of "Aussie style"?

Good question:worthy:

Firstly Oz is a huge country, and I mean HUOOOGE. At the Champs in Sydney, i met and danced with people from many parts of OZ and the styles are pretty varied over there. We tend to be more exposed in the UK to the "Sydney" style.

Ok so staying with the Sydney style. Precise is an understatement. I was watching some of the earlier rounds at the champs, the beginners and intermediates. My jaw dropped when I saw the moves the intermediates were doing, our advanced dancers would struggle with many of them.

However I want to be as diplomatic as possible. I saw move followed by move followed by move. The "music Interpretation" was word related, ie they would try and mimic the words of the songs, not the feelings envoked by the songs. This is of course a generalisation and there were a few brilliant natural dancers. I am going to stick my neck out here though and suggest that some of the natural dancers looked as though they were conforming to a more rigid structure and complying with the perception of what Ceroc is in Sydney, which is big moves done for effect and fitted in as often as your muscles permitted. Musicality is pushed into second place to making sure you got the big ones in.

The dancing however is incredibly showy and that is why it does so well at competitions especially in the UK. As an example, Ceroc were and are able to hire a theatre in Sydney and sell tickets to the public to watch showcase after showcase and Team routine after Team routine.

One thing that hits you immediatly in Sydney and Auckland are the Ballroom style facial expressions they all have. The big fixed grins that very rarley again have anything to do with the passion that is going on in the music.

OK I am not knocking their style. If that is what Ceroc is there then they are very good at it, very good indeed. In the UK, maybe because it has been around longer, maybe because here we have much more exposure to exogenous factors Ceroc evolves faster and we have gone closer to saying I cant be bothered to learn big moves that I have to work out for and practice 10 hours a day to a lazier more laid back approach. I think the music is also a very strong factor here.

The Ozzies have had Trampy and a few other Local dancers bring new music styles into OZ. At the moment, they are not quite sure what they should be doing with them and where the big moves fit in but they will and they will do it brilliantly I am sure.

Also with people like Clayton and Janine returning to OZ and Vicktor threatening to shift there, it will not take to long for them to dramaticaly influence the styles.

OK here's the important bit though, HOW TO SPOT AN OZZIE COUPLE ON THE DANCE FLOOR FROM 100 PACES"

1) They will both extend their arms fully when turning out fro each other.:(
2) They will never into each others eyes.:sad:
3) They will never look at you watching they will look through you.:what:
4) They will fumble around terribly if the ceiling is low or the girl will be head butting the ceiling tiles.:devil:
5) They guy will be wearing a T-Shirt with no arms. It may be a sparkley T-Shirt:eek:
6) The Guy will have muscles that will allow him to wear a sparkly T-Shirt with no arms as he knows no one would be stupid enough to argue with him.:worthy:
7) The girl when spun around the guys neck at least 3 times and then accelerated to the floor stopping just millimeters away from the floor before be whisked through the guys legs and back up over his head will have a fixed smile the whole time and never look as though she is going to be sick or pass out:sick:
8) They will both be highly suntanned, probably fake tan:waycool:
9)They will perform many many many set pieces that involve the girl not wearing out the soles of her dance shoes:really:
10) and perhaps a dead give away, the guy will be wearing a peculiar yellow rubber hat neatly tied under his chin.:D

Adam

David Bailey

7th-November-2005, 10:40 AM

Firstly Oz is a huge country, and I mean HUOOOGE. At the Champs in Sydney, i met and danced with people from many parts of OZ and the styles are pretty varied over there. We tend to be more exposed in the UK to the "Sydney" style.
Yes, I know - and I realise it may be silly to define a style for an entire country, let alone two. And I'd be extremely pushed to define "UK style", hell I couldn't even tell you what "Finchley style" is for that matter :rofl:

{ snip massive and informative answer }
That's great, pretty much what I'd thought. In short: flashy, visual, energetic, with lots and lots and lots and lots of precise moves.

HOW TO SPOT AN OZZIE COUPLE ON THE DANCE FLOOR FROM 100 PACES"
Nice one :grin:

Also, can I just say, that's the most comprehensive and coherent post I've ever seen posted at such an ungodly hour in the morning :clap:

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 10:47 AM

That's great, pretty much what I'd thought. In short: flashy, visual, energetic, with lots and lots and lots and lots of precise moves.

I think pretty much most of what has been said on this thread is true (except for the whole fake suntan thing... hey we cant help it if we actually get sun there!! :whistle: )

What I am hoping, given that I will be going back to Adelaide and not Sydney where they aren't really influenced that much by what is happening anywhere else, that when I go back in January, I can introduce some of what I have learnt here, ie musical interpretation and finding the breaks and using them. I myself cant stand it when a guy dances right through a wonderful break. They will often find themselves getting dirty looks from myself... :whistle:

Paul F

7th-November-2005, 11:07 AM

That's great, pretty much what I'd thought. In short: flashy, visual, energetic, with lots and lots and lots and lots of precise moves.

:what: Oh no. Apart from the precision, which is good in any dance, it sounds like everything I dislike about some MJ dancing :rolleyes:

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 11:17 AM

:what: Oh no. Apart from the precision, which is good in any dance, it sounds like everything I dislike about some MJ dancing :rolleyes:

Is that why you never dance with me? :whistle: :wink:

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 11:19 AM

David Bailey

7th-November-2005, 11:20 AM

:what: Oh no. Apart from the precision, which is good in any dance, it sounds like everything I dislike about some MJ dancing :rolleyes:
Well, it's not to my tastes either - but that's probably because I'm old with creaking joints, etc. :tears: 20 years ago, I'd probably have loved that sort of style...

Paul F

7th-November-2005, 11:23 AM

Is that why you never dance with me? :whistle: :wink:

:really: I am hurt :sad:

Unless you start throwing yourself over my head I would class you as a dancer rather than an acrobat :flower:

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 11:25 AM

OK, I don't like Aussie Ceroc, so I'm a little biased:

1. More emphasis on "flash" moves, like drops, dips & lifts
2. Teaching beginners such "flash" moves, regardless of either party's personal safety.
3. Winning competitions, with "Miss World grins"
4. Very little attention to musicality, and paying attention to your partner

Might I just ask a question.... no harm or offense intended, Im just curious to know, but have you been to Australia and been to the classes (and not just certain venues in Sydney where sometimes things arent as standard as they perhaps should be)?

Im mainly interested from the perspective that people think that the teachings are dangerous and there is little attention to musicality etc... Yes, there are a few hotshots (teacher or no) but you get them everywhere... (I probably came across more of them here).. what evidence do they have to support these claims? other than just seeing our top level dancers?

The difficulty rating is definately higher, but the beginner classes I found were always acceptable, never boring, the teachers (YAY to Adrian and Aisha) always wary of who was in the class, always able to take the time to go through things and I always felt safe.

Paul F

7th-November-2005, 11:29 AM

Well, it's not to my tastes either - but that's probably because I'm old with creaking joints, etc. :tears: 20 years ago, I'd probably have loved that sort of style...

I wouldnt consider myself THAT old and I still hate it. Again though its all personal taste. :rolleyes:
I generally dont like aerials although I have to qualify that by saying I dont like badly worked aerials. Seeing the pros doing it is great as they have smooth entry and exit points and it just seems to, well, flow!

With all due respect to most that do them in MJ it doesnt flow :sad:
Cant say I could do much better though :(

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 11:37 AM

Might I just ask a question.... no harm or offense intended, Im just curious to know, but have you been to Australia and been to the classes (and not just certain venues in Sydney where sometimes things arent as standard as they perhaps should be)?

Im mainly interested from the perspective that people think that the teachings are dangerous and there is little attention to musicality etc... Yes, there are a few hotshots (teacher or no) but you get them everywhere... (I probably came across more of them here).. what evidence do they have to support these claims? other than just seeing our top level dancers?

The difficulty rating is definately higher, but the beginner classes I found were always acceptable, never boring, the teachers (YAY to Adrian and Aisha) always wary of who was in the class, always able to take the time to go through things and I always felt safe.

Urm, yes, I have. I spent 3 months in Australia last year, danced in Brisbane & Sydney, and attended the champs, where I danced with people from all over Australia.

Also going on the people who have come to the UK from Australia, beginners who have learnt drops in beginners classes, really badly, and advanced dancers who looked like Barbie and Ken when they first arrived, and after a few years over here, now look fantastic! I have to say that the combination of Aussie drops & lifts, with the UK sense of fun and musicality does make a fabulous look.

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 11:47 AM

Urm, yes, I have. I spent 3 months in Australia last year, danced in Brisbane & Sydney, and attended the champs, where I danced with people from all over Australia.

Also going on the people who have come to the UK from Australia, beginners who have learnt drops in beginners classes, really badly, and advanced dancers who looked like Barbie and Ken when they first arrived, and after a few years over here, now look fantastic! I have to say that the combination of Aussie drops & lifts, with the UK sense of fun and musicality does make a fabulous look.

Thanks, I appreciate that.. I totally agree with what you said about the combination of the two. Im always the first to admit that maybe the Aussies do go over the top a bit which is why when I go back to Adelaide to a relatively un-influenced area and perhaps introduce some of the UK style. I will probably head over to Sydney and Melbourne as well as I want to get as wide an influence as possible rather than just one style all of the time.

David Franklin

7th-November-2005, 12:00 PM

Might I just ask a question.... no harm or offense intended, Im just curious to know, but have you been to Australia and been to the classes (and not just certain venues in Sydney where sometimes things arent as standard as they perhaps should be)?
OK, I've only danced in Sydney, but that isn't going to stop me putting an oar in...

Im mainly interested from the perspective that people think that the teachings are dangerous and there is little attention to musicality etc...Dangerous teaching? Don't know I'd go that far, but there's far more expectation that people will be happy with doing drops and have correct basic technique. And everyone I danced with did have good technique, so there wasn't a problem. But I'm not clear how it works in Sydney when you do get someone who has problems (either physical or technical) with drops; I don't remember much talk of alternative moves etc.

In general dancing / freestyle, people were prepared to do drops/aerials much closer to people than I am. I don't know how often collisions occur, but with those margins, I'd be amazed if they never happen.

I didn't see much musicality taught, but then I think I've seen it taught about twice in 6 years of doing Ceroc classes in the UK, so let's not do the pot/kettle thing here. I actually thought a lot of dancers showed a lot of musicality in Sydney - I particularly remember Gary's dancing with his partner. :worthy:

Yes, there are a few hotshots (teacher or no) but you get them everywhere... (I probably came across more of them here).. what evidence do they have to support these claims? other than just seeing our top level dancers?It's rarely the "top" dancers who cause problems. It's more the person (usually male) who comes over, can do 20 aerials (usually with strength rather than technique) and maybe 20 normal dance moves (usually off beat and too fast for the music), and then starts complaining publicly about the women over here not knowing how to do drops and aerials... Sadly, such specimens are not uncommon.

Finally, to segue with another thread, from the DVDs I've seen, it seems the competition style in Oz is a caricature of the differences between our styles. The only way I can explain what I saw is that there's a genuine belief that the couple with the "most content" wins. So everyone is just cramming moves into their two minutes of dancing, doing moves at double speed just so they can fit more moves in, doing mini-routines so they don't waste a beat in between their flash moves, etc... And you can bet no-one wants to miss out on doing an aerial just because it doesn't fit the music!

I'm not sure competitions are evil, but they can certainly push the dance form in evil directions... :devil:

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 12:06 PM

I didn't see much musicality taught, but then I think I've seen it taught about twice in 6 years of doing Ceroc classes in the UK, so let's not do the pot/kettle thing here.
You're right, I apologise, I've not seen it taught at Ceroc here, although I have seen it taught in plenty of dance weekenders, not run by Ceroc, and I have seen many latin/blues/swing style masterclasses taught at Ceroc, all of which improve musicality. I also see an awful lot more of it on the dance floor over here, including at Ceroc, I hardly saw any down under, it was all about which fantastic move can be put in where, regardless as to whether or not it fitted the style of the music, the partners ability, or the number of people on the floor, and as for using the breaks, and the changes in tempo in the music? Don't think I saw any of that at all.

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 12:10 PM

In general dancing / freestyle, people were prepared to do drops/aerials much closer to people than I am. I don't know how often collisions occur, but with those margins, I'd be amazed if they never happen.

I think it could be that in Australia there is a rule that states He/she that does the dropping buys he/she that got dropped a bottle of alcohol. This can often reduce the number of collisions/drops, especially if you are on a budget. Maybe this should be introduced here?

I didn't see much musicality taught, but then I think I've seen it taught about twice in 6 years of doing Ceroc classes in the UK, so let's not do the pot/kettle thing here.
:yeah:

Finally, to segue with another thread, from the DVDs I've seen, it seems the competition style in Oz is a caricature of the differences between our styles. The only way I can explain what I saw is that there's a genuine belief that the couple with the "most content" wins. So everyone is just cramming moves into their two minutes of dancing, doing moves at double speed just so they can fit more moves in, doing mini-routines so they don't waste a beat in between their flash moves, etc... And you can bet no-one wants to miss out on doing an aerial just because it doesn't fit the music!

it is unfortunate that competitions and the like do give the majority of Australian 'Ceroc' dancers (I use the term loosely given the many different variations that now influence the dance) a reputation.

I would define myself as an Australian dancer, yes I do like well executed drops and the odd flashy move BUT only if incorporated within the music I am dancing to and I also like to interpret the music (I thank J**** for giving me that). I like to think I am a combination of the two...

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 12:13 PM

I think it could be that in Australia there is a rule that states He/she that does the dropping buys he/she that got dropped a bottle of alcohol. This can often reduce the number of collisions/drops, especially if you are on a budget. Maybe this should be introduced here?

Don't drink much, usually drive when I go dancing, so don't drink at all, not much compensation for being put out of dancing, due to the whiplash/concussion/broken ankle/torn ligament/slipped disc/dislocated shoulder, all seen by me (first 2 obtained by me, and seen on others too) in cases where drops/lifts have gone wrong. I prefer the idea that such moves don't get led on crowded dance floors, or by people who have not learnt how to lead them properly, with someone who the leader is not certain has learnt how to follow them properly.

David Franklin

7th-November-2005, 12:23 PM

You're right, I apologise, I've not seen it taught at Ceroc here, although I have seen it taught in plenty of dance weekenders, not run by Ceroc, and I have seen many latin/blues/swing style masterclasses taught at Ceroc, all of which improve musicality. The point is that it's hard to draw conclusions from what is taught in the standard Ceroc/MJ class - the format doesn't really lend itself to teaching musicality. I don't know what specific workshops they do, but I think the choreographed routines they do in Oz help with musicality as long as the dancers are open to the concepts.

I also see an awful lot more of it on the dance floor over here, including at Ceroc, I hardly saw any down under, it was all about which fantastic move can be put in where, regardless as to whether or not it fitted the style of the music, the partners ability, or the number of people on the floor, and as for using the breaks, and the changes in tempo in the music? Don't think I saw any of that at all.Conversely, all I can say is I saw a fair amount of musicality, including use of breaks and changes in tempo. Of course, I was probably paying most attention to the good dancers.

There's also a lot of discussion of musicality on the other forum (http://www.cerocforum.com/); a lot do seem to be at the "musical interpretation = freezing on the breaks" stage, but it's better than nothing!

ChrisA

7th-November-2005, 12:42 PM

4. Very little attention to musicality, and paying attention to your partner
Although Adrian and Louise were amazingly musical in the Jivemasters '04 final.

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 12:46 PM

Although Adrian and Louise were amazingly musical in the Jivemasters '04 final.
I wouldn't know. Don't know who Adrian & Louise are, and I wasn't there. Do you mean the Jivemasters champs in Walthamstow? In which case, surely that's in the UK, so Adrian & Louise may well be Australian, but obviously dance over here.

My impression in Aus was that the teaching of Ceroc was at the same standard as it was over here 10 years ago, but then, we've had Ceroc over here for about 10 years longer, so I don't think its really a criticism that the level isn't as high.

David Bailey

7th-November-2005, 01:09 PM

Just a caveat: I think it's a bit patronizing to say that Aussie style is worse or less advanced than UK style (whatever that is).

Sure, it's clearly different - and sure, that difference is not to my personal tastes - but that doesn't mean it's wrong, or "basic". Simon's classes are always well-attended, so I assume people are interested in the approach he brings. And I don't think the Ceroc scene was like that in the UK 10 years ago - or ever, even.

I am interested in how a culture affects the dance style though. Here we have an extremely well-regimented dance teaching system, but simply changing it to another country means that the style developed in that country has distinct differences, despite being taught in (presumably) a very similar way. So it seems there's a powerful cultural impact on a dance scene.

I'd be interested to see what develops as "French style" in a few years' time, assuming that Ceroc France takes off.

Lynn

7th-November-2005, 01:25 PM

I'd be interested to see what develops as "French style" in a few years' time, assuming that Ceroc France takes off. Or Northern Irish style?! :rofl: :whistle:

Gus

7th-November-2005, 01:30 PM

My impression in Aus was that the teaching of Ceroc was at the same standard as it was over here 10 years ago, but then, we've had Ceroc over here for about 10 years longer, so I don't think its really a criticism that the level isn't as high.My Dear TiggTours, can I nominate this for the LEAST informed statement for the BFG Awards 2006.:flower:

It think there are a whole host of NZ/Aussies teachers/dancers that could absolutely blow you away. As DJ said, not better/worse but different! Have you not seen any of them? I remember joining a class at Auckland years back when I was teaching workshops there. It was the usual mid-week clas (Beginner/Int/Advanced) ... and I made the mistake of joining the advanced class. It was WAY above anything I'd done in the UK and came out of it feeling (and looking) like a compete beginner. I wouldn't ever dare to accuse our convict friends of being behind us after that!

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 01:37 PM

Although Adrian and Louise were amazingly musical in the Jivemasters '04 final.

Nicky and Robert also have excellent musical interpretation, IMO they use the music and incorporate their moves around the music. :worthy:

MartinHarper

7th-November-2005, 01:50 PM

despite being taught in (presumably) a very similar way.

They teach footwork, though.
Footwork leads to drops(?), and drops lead to competitions, and competitions lead to aerials, and so forth.

Dizzy

7th-November-2005, 01:52 PM

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 01:59 PM

I am not saying that this is definitive 'Aussie Style' but this is the kinds of things that I have been taught in Simon's classes and my dancing has improved so much since becoming a regular at ISH :clap: :clap: .

Yes, Simon is Australian, and he is a teacher, however, IMO can sometimes overdo his 'Australianness' for enjoyment of the people (eg we all know Steve Irwin right?? :eek: ) I dont deny that Simon is a great motivational teacher and can get the people in, but I have stood cringing in the corner on more than one occassion watching people try and do lifts and drops that they clearly arent ready for.

You can still teach in an Australian Style but need to keep it safe as well...

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 02:11 PM

My Dear TiggTours, can I nominate this for the LEAST informed statement for the BFG Awards 2006.:flower:

It think there are a whole host of NZ/Aussies teachers/dancers that could absolutely blow you away. As DJ said, not better/worse but different! Have you not seen any of them? I remember joining a class at Auckland years back when I was teaching workshops there. It was the usual mid-week clas (Beginner/Int/Advanced) ... and I made the mistake of joining the advanced class. It was WAY above anything I'd done in the UK and came out of it feeling (and looking) like a compete beginner. I wouldn't ever dare to accuse our convict friends of being behind us after that!
A personal impression left on someone through their own personal experience can not possibly be "uninformed". I have seen plenty of Australian, and NZ dancers, both over there and over here, and have not been overly impressed by any of them. The only ones I've seen that I do like are Clayton & Janine, however that is now that they have had a couple of years experience of dancing in the UK, I didn't like them at all when they first came over, thought they were all flash moves and Miss World teeth.

As for the advanced class, you are right, and I haven't disputed the level of the moves taught down under, quite the contrary, they teach some truly spectacular moves, I just, personally, believe that there is more to dancing than a series of flash moves! I don't think drops should be taught at beginner stage, I think they are something you should progress to, and I think that, before you move on to learning spectacular moves, you need to learn the basics of lead and follow, musicality, and dancing with your partner. Anyone can learn how to do a flash drop, but learning to do it well? That's another matter!

David Bailey

7th-November-2005, 02:12 PM

Yes, Simon is Australian, and he is a teacher, however, IMO can sometimes overdo his 'Australianness' for enjoyment of the people
Well, his main selling-point at the weekenders etc. is "Aussie Style", so it's not unreasonable to look at his, err, style for an indication of what this thing is.

(eg we all know Steve Irwin right?? :eek: )
Errr.... :blush:

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 02:41 PM

Well, his main selling-point at the weekenders etc. is "Aussie Style", so it's not unreasonable to look at his, err, style for an indication of what this thing is.

it is just unfortunate that a lot of people look at Simon Borland and go to his classes and all of a sudden become experts on what Australian dancers are like. I do not think that he is an accurate representation of Australian Ceroc as a whole.

I am nothing like Simon to dance with, yet people sometimes avoid dancing with me purely based on the fact that they dont like the 'Australian style' yet their only exposure to Australian ceroc is Simon Borland.

Errr.... :blush:

You know... the Crocodile Hunter??? Gee Crikey isn't she a bewdy?
like we actually say that... sheesh!

David Franklin

7th-November-2005, 02:42 PM

As for the advanced class, you are right, and I haven't disputed the level of the moves taught down under, quite the contrary, they teach some truly spectacular movesYou don't think:

the teaching of Ceroc was at the same standard as it was over here 10 years ago implies anything about the level of the moves? Or that the content of the advanced class was stuff we did 10 years ago in the UK?

Actually, I'm quite sure you didn't mean that, but it requires a certain reading between the lines to avoid those conclusions.

The thing is, when two dance styles emphasise different things, they will have different strengths and weaknesses. It's important to recognize both of them. There's no doubt people in the UK are striving to copy various technical aspects of Oz Ceroc, so in many ways, we're years behind Austrailia, while still being years ahead of them in terms of musicality. But I'm not sure you ever get "the whole package" outside of the very top dancers - everyone trades off strengths for weaknesses.

In my experience (IME) the best thing about the Australians is that they are prepared to work hard on their dancing, and yet so willing to accomodate varying points of view and accept that other styles have a lot to offer. Oh yes, and you can use the 'C' word (competitions) without a popcorn fight breaking out...

spindr

7th-November-2005, 03:02 PM

And there was me thinking that Australian style meant shouting in to the head mic'. :whistle:

SpinDr

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 04:18 PM

You don't think:
implies anything about the level of the moves? Or that the content of the advanced class was stuff we did 10 years ago in the UK?

Actually, I'm quite sure you didn't mean that, but it requires a certain reading between the lines to avoid those conclusions.

The thing is, when two dance styles emphasise different things, they will have different strengths and weaknesses. It's important to recognize both of them. There's no doubt people in the UK are striving to copy various technical aspects of Oz Ceroc, so in many ways, we're years behind Austrailia, while still being years ahead of them in terms of musicality. But I'm not sure you ever get "the whole package" outside of the very top dancers - everyone trades off strengths for weaknesses.

In my experience (IME) the best thing about the Australians is that they are prepared to work hard on their dancing, and yet so willing to accomodate varying points of view and accept that other styles have a lot to offer. Oh yes, and you can use the 'C' word (competitions) without a popcorn fight breaking out...
That all depends, what is your idea of a high standard of teaching? Somewhere that you are taught to do really fantastic moves, but no thought is put into whether or not that level of class should really be learning those moves, or how to do the move safely, both from a lead and follow perspective, so that neither partner is at risk of injury, or somewhere that teaches a far simpler move, and concentrates on how to lead and follow it properly, with style and to the music?

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 04:20 PM

That all depends, what is your idea of a high standard of teaching?

well, as stated before on this thread... I wouldn't exactly call some of the people that teach in the UK up to a high standard either. Problems such as these are found anywhere, not just in Australia.

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 04:26 PM

well, as stated before on this thread... I wouldn't exactly call some of the people that teach in the UK up to a high standard either. Problems such as these are found anywhere, not just in Australia.
Thing is, I'm not sure who moved this on to teaching, I was actually talking about social dancing, not the teaching, and now I'm getting all flustered! Its all gone terribly off the thread of what I was saying, and now it sounds like I'm criticisng Aussie teachers! I'm not, I can't, I only went to one lesson! All I know is that, when I was in Aus, I had more people trying to lead me into aerials and complicated drops that didn't fit the music than I ever have over here, and far less experience of people listening to the music, and dancing WITH me, rather than just trying to throw me around. It may be that this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the teaching, and admitedly their flash moves look great in competition, but in social dance I just feel there is still a long way to go, and nobody is ever going to convince me that teaching drops in the beginners class is acceptable!

David Bailey

7th-November-2005, 04:30 PM

it is just unfortunate that a lot of people look at Simon Borland and go to his classes and all of a sudden become experts on what Australian dancers are like. I do not think that he is an accurate representation of Australian Ceroc as a whole.
Hence my question - which I think has been reasonably well-answered already, so we're just gassing now (nothing new there of course).

I certainly didn't want to imply that everyone dances the same style as Simon, but he's probably the highest-profile "Aussie Style" proponent in the UK at the moment.

But as you mention it, what do you think is the difference between his style and "general Aussie style"? Again, I'm genuinely curious, I have little knowledge of this area.

You know... the Crocodile Hunter??? Gee Crikey isn't she a bewdy?
like we actually say that... sheesh!
Errr... :blush:
OK, I'm still in the dark, but I'll take your word for it - I thought you were talking about a dancer there, that's why I asked.

7th-November-2005, 04:53 PM

They teach footwork, though.
Footwork leads to drops(?), and drops lead to competitions, and competitions lead to aerials,

aerials leads to suffering, suffering leads to pain, and forever the dark side shall rule your destiny

David Franklin

7th-November-2005, 04:54 PM

That all depends, what is your idea of a high standard of teaching? Somewhere that you are taught to do really fantastic moves, but no thought is put into whether or not that level of class should really be learning those moves, or how to do the move safely, both from a lead and follow perspective, so that neither partner is at risk of injury, or somewhere that teaches a far simpler move, and concentrates on how to lead and follow it properly, with style and to the music?But those are two extremes, neither of which I've actually experienced in the Ceroc classes of either country. To repeat, my experience of the Sydney follows was that they were very technically proficient, and certainly much safer doing drops than a typical class in the UK. And there was far more information about safety, lead, tension, weighting, etc. than I ever got in Ceroc over here. So if their teaching is so bad, what does that say about the UK?

All I know is that, when I was in Aus, I had more people trying to lead me into aerials and complicated drops that didn't fit the music than I ever have over here, and far less experience of people listening to the music, and dancing WITH me, rather than just trying to throw me around.
Probably fair comment. But as you say, I think this has far more to do with what's regarded as "good dancing" than the teaching. The teachers do bear some responsiblity for deciding (e.g. by judging competitions) what is "good dancing", however. I don't get the impression many of them really believe you can dance well while only dancing basics.

Nobody is ever going to convince me that teaching drops in the beginners class is acceptable!Intuitively I'd agree with you, but the Oz way of teaching drops does seem to work remarkably well. I wonder if it's partly that beginners are still much more ready to listen and ask questions, so they actually learn the correct technique.

Or maybe the men don't learn correct technique, so in self-defense all the women get to be really good at taking their own weight. That would explain both our observations! :wink:

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 05:00 PM

Probably fair comment. But as you say, I think this has far more to do with what's regarded as "good dancing" than the teaching.
Exactly, and my original comment was only in relation to the dancing, not the teaching, as (as I said) I'm not in a position to comment on that. I presumed (rightly of wrongly) that the dancing was a direct result of the teaching, and as at home I will happily do drops with people I don't know, as they are led well, and while there I found very few men that I as happy doing drops with, that leads me to believe that the drops are not actually taught well. Having danced with someone here who had learnt a drop in Australia in a beginners class on his third week, which gave absolutely no support to the girl whatsoever (support is nothing to do with taking her weight, its just about helping her to balance so that she can safely drop, whilst supporting her own weight, in such a way that she is not putting any undue strain on her back or any joints) just serves to support my belief that they are not being taught well.

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 05:12 PM

But as you mention it, what do you think is the difference between his style and "general Aussie style"? Again, I'm genuinely curious, I have little knowledge of this area.
.

I dont want to go on a Simon Borland slating rant, its just not cricket. but I do think he perhaps teaches moves that are too difficult and says that if you were in Australia thats what you would be doing. When in fact it isn't the case. (we are also quite aware that it ins't necessary to scream into the head mic :whistle: ) I have recently spoken with my Australian teacher in Adelaide they have just introduced an Intromediate type class to assist beginners in the jump to intermediate. (these classes are pretty standard in Sydney, Melbourne and I think Perth too) They have also started up an Advanced class but do keep in mind that in Adelaide there might only be about 5 - 10 people even ready for advanced so there is still a lot of work to be done.

I cant find which post it was, but it mentioned about teaching drops etc in beginners classes. That, my friends, is an urban myth. In Australia, we never learnt difficult drops in a beginners class. I think the hardest thing we ever did even remotely close to that kind of move was the Astaire lean. I think the difference comes in the distinct jump between beginners and intermediate.

It is unfortunate that they don't pay more attention to styling and musicality but I think they use the workshop format for these areas.

David Bailey

7th-November-2005, 05:20 PM

I have recently spoken with my Australian teacher in Adelaide they have just introduced an Intromediate type class to assist beginners in the jump to intermediate. (these classes are pretty standard in Sydney, Melbourne and I think Perth too)
One of the (many) good things I've heard about teaching in Australia is the emphasis on helping new intermediates, with a recognition that there is a need to teach at this level, and to differentiate more than just "beginners" and "intermediates".

IMO, Ceroc UK is woefully inadequate in this area; workshops aside, the intermediate classes are mostly poorly-supported - for example, no taxi-dancers in intermediate classes. And I definitely wish Ceroc UK took a lead from Ceroc Oz in that respect.

It is unfortunate that they don't pay more attention to styling and musicality but I think they use the workshop format for these areas.
Hah - as I'm sure you know, almost no teachers in the UK pay much attention to those areas in classes either, so I wouldn't worry. :whistle:

Blues Dancer

7th-November-2005, 05:24 PM

I'm sorry. For a moment there, I thought that this thread had the words "Aussie" and "Style" in one sentence!?! :devil:

Just kidding :whistle:

TiggsTours

7th-November-2005, 05:26 PM

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 05:27 PM

I'm sorry. For a moment there, I thought that this thread had the words "Aussie" and "Style" in one sentence!?! :devil:

Just kidding :whistle:

1 fluffy bunny... 2 fluffy bunny.... :(

David Bailey

7th-November-2005, 05:45 PM

I'm sorry. For a moment there, I thought that this thread had the words "Aussie" and "Style" in one sentence!?! :devil:
Dead man walking...

Just kidding :whistle:
Yeah, like that'll save you.

DavidB

7th-November-2005, 05:52 PM

The difference between Aussie followers and UK followers when they step back:

An Aussie follower will immediately step forward and wonder why you havent led the next move yet.

A UK follower will step back, stop, and complain about the music.

DavidB

KatieR

7th-November-2005, 05:53 PM

Dead man walking...

Yeah, like that'll save you.

Its alright DJ, I am one with the world, I have found inner peace... :rolleyes:

David Franklin

7th-November-2005, 05:57 PM

I cant find which post it was, but it mentioned about teaching drops etc in beginners classes. That, my friends, is an urban myth. In Australia, we never learnt difficult drops in a beginners class. I think the hardest thing we ever did even remotely close to that kind of move was the Astaire lean.

Any chance of expalining the Aussie beginner then who tried a drop on me last Wednesday, insisting he'd learnt it at a beginners class in Australia, in week 3? And you talk about not learning difficult drops in beginners, how about taking a leaf out the UK book, going one better, and not learning any at beginner level! Even in a simple drop or lean there is the danger of substaining injuries, if not done correctly!I'm not sure if we're just having arguments about leans v.s. drops; on the one hand I saw a basket-lean taught in a beginners class in Sydney that sounds similar to what you describe. On the other hand, given the drops in intermediate weren't particularly huge, I can well believe Katie that full drops aren't taught in beginner classes. And of course, there's a very obvious reason why a poor but arrogant dancer might say "I was taught this in a beginners class" - he's lying or mistaken.

As far as drops/leans in beginners class: as I said before, I can see an argument for teaching them in beginners class; there's maybe more chance of beginners learning correct technique (given the high teacher/pupil ration, lots of teacher / taxi dancer support) than there is people in an intermediate class. Of course the counterargument is they won't be able to dance in/out of them safely. But certainly the UK model isn't working terribly well.

mooncalf

7th-November-2005, 05:58 PM

hmmmm

Gadget

7th-November-2005, 09:39 PM

IMO, Ceroc UK is woefully inadequate in this area; workshops aside, the intermediate classes are mostly poorly-supported - for example, no taxi-dancers in intermediate classes. And I definitely wish Ceroc UK took a lead from Ceroc Oz in that respect.FWIW, I think that the reverse is probably closer to the truth: the intermediates are very well supported, but you have to look hard to find much beyond that.
My perception of it from what people are saying here (and in the other forum) is that the "intermediate" is closer to what we would call "Advanced/intermediate" - we teach stuff on the basics and gradually progress it so there is time to explore and get into the musicality side of things. In Oz, it seems that there is more of a focus to get people 'up there' rather than enjoying the journey.

timbp

7th-November-2005, 11:08 PM

nobody is ever going to convince me that teaching drops in the beginners class is acceptable!

20 months dancing, 2 to 4 classes a week, and I have never seen a drop taught in a beginners' class in Sydney.

And I'm pretty sure the only dip I've seen taught in beginners' classes is a First Move Safe Dip.

timbp

7th-November-2005, 11:11 PM

Any chance of expalining the Aussie beginner then who tried a drop on me last Wednesday, insisting he'd learnt it at a beginners class in Australia, in week 3?

I take it the UK has no people who believe they know everything after 2 to 3 classes?

MartinHarper

8th-November-2005, 12:27 AM

We teach stuff on the basics and gradually progress it so there is time to explore and get into the musicality side of things.

Is this the same as saying that we teach stuff badly, so people stay intermediate for several years?

Gary

8th-November-2005, 01:15 AM

... I actually thought a lot of dancers showed a lot of musicality in Sydney - I particularly remember Gary's dancing with his partner. :worthy: :blush: Thanks. I try really hard, so it kinda bugs me to hear people saying stuff which sounds like "no Australians have any musicality" :sad:

Finally, to segue with another thread, from the DVDs I've seen, it seems the competition style in Oz is a caricature of the differences between our styles. The only way I can explain what I saw is that there's a genuine belief that the couple with the "most content" wins. So everyone is just cramming moves into their two minutes of dancing, doing moves at double speed just so they can fit more moves in, doing mini-routines so they don't waste a beat in between their flash moves, etc... And you can bet no-one wants to miss out on doing an aerial just because it doesn't fit the music!I've probably been a bit guilty of some of that (but I'm getting better).

Any chance of expalining the Aussie beginner then who tried a drop on me last Wednesday, insisting he'd learnt it at a beginners class in Australia, in week 3?He's an idiot? I've got the full syllabus of beginner moves/routines (for CMJ) and there ain't no drops.

...All I know is that, when I was in Aus, I had more people trying to lead me into aerials and complicated drops that didn't fit the music than I ever have over here, and far less experience of people listening to the music, and dancing WITH me, rather than just trying to throw me around....Sorry you had a not-so-great time :sick: . I hope I wasn't part of that problem.

I am nothing like Simon to dance with, yet people sometimes avoid dancing with me purely based on the fact that they dont like the 'Australian style'Are you serious? :really: I could imagine girls not wanting to dance with Aussie guys if they fear they'll be immediately thrown to the ground or in the air, but why would a guy not want to dance with an Aussie girl? :yum:

Ronde!

8th-November-2005, 02:39 AM

It's been very interesting to read about the perceived differences between MJ in the UK and Oz. I've danced in Australia for about three years now, and have just started dancing in competitions. While I'm an enthusiastic dancer, I have never owned a franchise or even taught, so I'm not posting here with any kind of vested interest, just as an enthusiastic and interested participant. :)

I feel it necessary to first clear up any misconceptions people have about dancing here in Australia.

Beginners are never, ever, taught dips and drops. Performing dips and drops on beginners is taboo, and frowned upon by most experienced dancers. And dips and drops are always taught with utmost regard to safety. All of the teachers I've experienced here go through feet positioning for safety and stability, how to hold the lady securely, and how to execute such moves precisely.

That said, dips and drops can be a lot of fun. Most of the girls I know really enjoy them, and that is why I do them. If that situation was to change, doubtless as gentlemen, we would also change our dancing style. But the fact remains, at the moment, the girls here like being dipped.

Aerials are something of a black art. Major aerials are never taught in classes to my knowledge; some baby "lifts" are sometimes taught at Intermediate-Advanced level. Again, safety is paramount. We use spotters when attempting to learn difficult aerials, and I have also seen aerials techniques taught in a pool. The importance of technique over strength is always stressed.

While freestyling with dips and drops is common, experienced dancers are generally aware of "floorcraft," that is, adapting their dancing to their surroundings to keep it safe and fun. Dips and drops would only be executed by most experienced dancers when there is sufficient space to exucute these moves safely. And while I've seen many aerials performed in competitions, and all of our advanced dancers are capable of executing major aerials, I've almost never seen a major aerial performed in the context of freestyle social dancing.

Australia is full of dancers who exhibit excellent musicality. Reference was made previously to Adrian and Louise, who are, in fact, Australian dancers residing in Melbourne, Victoria. We have classes in styling and musicality, and indeed, there was one here in my home city of Canberra just three days ago. We also have fairly regular classes in "Close Moves" - which to my mind provide participants with an opportunity to feel, and interpret, the sensuality of music in their dancing. I think the lessons learned in these classes in particular are valuable for dancers here in learning interpretation, musicality, and blues styling.

Perhaps there is less eye-contact between partners in Australia, but I feel that this is, perhaps, something to do with current cultural expectations in Australia. Just as the girls here seem to enjoy dips and drops, there has been a recent discussion on the Australian forum where some girls expressed that they found extended eye-contact offensive or at least uncomfortable. As gentlemen, we are bound to provide only so much eye-contact as our ladies wish; doubtless the same could be said in the UK.

I think our energetic, exuberant participants very much enjoy dancing in a celebratory, youthful sense, just as much as a sensual and musical sense. I therefore found it surprising to see one poster surmise that Australian dancing has less "light and shade". I would think, if anything, it has more! We love to dance slow, sensual songs. With the right partner, we very much enjoy a gentle and lightly-led dance gazing into their eyes. But we also have a sense of fun that comes through in faster more upbeat songs, and the flashier interpretation and correspondingly more acrobatic moves are simply a reflection of that.

I'm sorry to hear if some UK ladies haven't agreed with the musical choices, interpretation or repertoire of the Aussie MJ scene while visiting us here, but I for one will be more aware to dance more gently, connectedly and interpretively with any future guests we might be lucky enough to share our humble hospitality with. I hope we will have many such opportunities in future!

I did particularly like the post that said that the dancing was "different" in Australia - not better or worse. I think that's very true, and particularly in light of what I tell beginners taking their first faltering steps: when it comes to dancing, something's seriously wrong only if you're not enjoying yourself. :) With understanding, I hope we can all maximise that enjoyment. :)

Yliander

8th-November-2005, 03:05 AM

They teach footwork, though.
Footwork leads to drops(?), and drops lead to competitions, and competitions lead to aerials, and so forth.sorry but I can't find/follow the logic of foot work = drops = competitions = aerials

Yliander

8th-November-2005, 03:17 AM

*snip*I have recently spoken with my Australian teacher in Adelaide they have just introduced an Intromediate type class to assist beginners in the jump to intermediate. (these classes are pretty standard in Sydney, Melbourne and I think Perth too) They have also started up an Advanced class but do keep in mind that in Adelaide there might only be about 5 - 10 people even ready for advanced so there is still a lot of work to be done. *snip* Ceroc Perth has consolidation classes for beginners - 1-12 weeks or as long as they wish to attend them - they have introducted an intromediate workshop about every 8-12 weeks to assist people moving up to intermediate - no regular intromediate classes

Ceroc Melbourne - does intromediate classes as part of their normal nights

timbp

8th-November-2005, 03:38 AM

And while I've seen many aerials performed in competitions, and all of our advanced dancers are capable of executing major aerials, I've almost never seen a major aerial performed in the context of freestyle social dancing.

I agree. Aerials do appear on the social floor, but very rarely, and I've not seen one that I would have said was performed close enough to other dancers to be unsafe.

But every week or two on this forum there is yet another post complaining about people performing aerials/lifts on the social floor in an unsafe manner, or about guys trying to lead them when the lady doesn't want to do them. It gives me the impression aerials are much more common on the UK social floor than the Australian one.

Unless we're all using different definitions...

Robert Winter

8th-November-2005, 04:14 AM

What interesting reading.

Personally, I don’t like labelling anything on a national basis because people have a nasty habit of experiencing a small area and then assume that everywhere else must be like that. Kingscoss in Sydney full of Strip Clubs, Brothels and rowdy backpackers, but to say that every suburb in OZ is full of them would not be even close to accurate.

Second, why should doing aerials and “flashy moves” preclude one from being musical? I agree that in social dancing the first thought is for your partners safety and because of this musicality can sometimes take a back seat, but only among the less gifted dancers. But this lack of musicality among the less gifted applies equally truly to the UK as it does to OZ.

Having said that, there use to be a “forklift truck” mentality among many Australian Ceroc/MJ dancers. But times change (it is only a shame that some perceptions don’t) and this is steadily vanishing.

Any chance of expalining the Aussie beginner then who tried a drop on me last Wednesday, insisting he'd learnt it at a beginners class in Australia, in week 3?

He's an idiot? I've got the full syllabus of beginner moves/routines (for CMJ) and there ain't no drops.I will have to agree with Gary’s assessment on this. CMJ works very hard on teaching dance first and moves second. We focus on lead and follow, encourage the lady not to carry her momentum forward and wait until she feels the lead. We also take a very strong line with anyone who leads “big” moves on a crowded floor or on people who do not wish to dance them.

My impression in Aus was that the teaching of Ceroc was at the same standard as it was over here 10 years ago, but then, we've had Ceroc over here for about 10 years longer, so I don't think its really a criticism that the level isn't as high.You certainly had a rough trip. Which venue(s) did you go to?

Don’t forget that there are good and bad teachers. To only experience the bad ones and then tar the whole county with that brush is a little unfair.

cerocmetro

8th-November-2005, 04:26 AM

This thread has really moved since i last posted on it :eek:

There needs to be a bit of clarification and I would also like to expand my previous post.

I was really reffering to competition dancing. The top couples in OZ sem to train very hard and learn aerials themselves either through experts in lifts not always from dance tutors to teachers who specialse in big lifts like Nicky Haslam.

Personally I loved dancing with the OZi girls. Who would turn one down because she is an Ozzi, certainly no one in my venues I hope, if they did I would certainly have something to say.

I taught a various Ozzi classes. They ran a very good beginners class and there were no lifts. It was extremely professional and no better or worse than any top UK class.

I also think the beginners and intermediates I saw at the champs (where I was also judging) as above taught themselves the lifts.

I take great pride in the fact that I DO teach lead and follow, special attention to hand hold and posture and tension in EVERY beginner class I teach in the UK and in NZ. My teachers in the UK and NZ do likewise. If no other tecahers are then shame on them but please do not say that these are never taught in the UK.

I also teach musicality. Explaing even at a beginner level how adding extra beats into a move can make it flow better and help the move work better with the music. At a beginner level regular class that is plenty but they are subjected to very intensive lead and follow etc etc etc in every beginner workshop I teach and same goes for my teachers.

I run musicallity workshops in the UK VERY regularly.

So having established I feel that these moves and types of moves are actually not taught in regular classes at least not below advanced level it brings us back to the OZZie style.

Again this really has to come down to competitions, which I too fail to see the link from footwork:really:

Where did the style for the champs come from. I would suggest the original organisers of the champs in each of the countries.

I may be guessing here and I am sure I will be corrected if wrong. In the UK Robert Austin ran the first MJ competitions. I know I helped run it. It was laid back, casual. Thi was reflected in the costumes, or lack of. The dancers were also very casual many wore jeans etc etc.

In OZ I believe it was Nicky who ran the first Champs. Nicky is very showy and has always been into big spectacular moves. She set the style for what you have in OZ now. In Roberts Champs a little known couple set the scene for the direction we were going to head. Nigel and Nina came out and danced brilliantly in a way we had never scene. They played with asome wonderful tunes and and showed us what musicallity was. Nina is a proffesional dance ballet jazz teacher and I dont think had done much if any Ceroc. that showed and was perhaps lucky for us in musicallity terms. They were different, they flowed.

At the time and in mnay UK venues is still the case, Ceroc is taught with big jerky movements. This was the original way and I guess was why OZ and NZ where the founders both learnt in London continued that style. So when we say the Ozzie style perhaps we should also say the old more traditional Ceroc style.

So Nigel and Nina led the way for competitions. From what I remember they wore al black, very uninspiring costumes. So from then on not many people bothered with glitter and glam. I remember also at the first Ceroc champs again Nigel and Nina shne but we were also introduced to another new direction with Dan and Lisa. They wore combats and danced hip hop or funk. They were disqualified but were the crowd favs. They were acknowldeged as the crowds favs and were asked to perform again in recognition. This further enforced the casual dress and also enforced the need or passion for musicality.

Now this is where I guess. The Oz champs would have had Nicky clones or people who performed what Nicky loves doing most big moves. Nicky performs in a very Ballroom style. Huge grins always eyes fixed on the audience and very much a stage show dancer. From oold Ozzi viedoes I have seen most acts and they were acts were similar well at least the ones that won. There were plenty of good dancers not complying to this style, they did not win. The pack follow the winners so to win in OZ you had to have big moves and the right look.

You also have to look at cultures. look at the population of the UK to that of OZ, yet the ozzies except for the rugby and the cricket:whistle: usually win in percentage terms much much more than us brits. It is OZi pride that makes them work so hard. It would be insulting to say that the BRITS don't. some eg Dave and Lily just for one spend hours in the gym and working out new moves, but they are the minority. They also very rarley compete. I have judged 2 comps in NZ/OZ there were the same faces and speaking to people they spoke of the champs circuit. It is really serious out there and they train hard for it, yes I would say much harder than the Brits.

Musicalty:
Ozzies have plenty of musicality just as much as anyone here BUT, they risk being hammered if they compete using the wrong style.

I competed in OZ AND WON, because i decided to dance very styly with lots of MI NO, because i cant do the bloddy big moves and just had to do what i was capable of. The fact I won was i am not sure due to the fact i was so different in a comp or everyone happened to be doing the same big moves this year.

I taught an MI workshop in Sydney. Everyone thought it was brilliant they had never heard of breaks or any of the stuff i taught. Now before you go running off and go there proves it, i taught the same workshops in London and guess what, same reaction, why because the people who tend to do workshops are the people who want to learn not the ones who either know it already or think they do.

OK I need to conclude I can't sleep no idea which time zone I am in, I thouhgt I was heading back to NZ on wednesday now turns out i was wrong, It was wednesday but wednesday NZ so tuesday here so what the hell am I doing on here I need to pack.

Anyway. In OZ and NZ and the UK there are great teachers and dancers and there are also really bad ones.

It is the competitions that you seem to be basing these styles of dancing on, not the classes or the average or perhaps more accurately the social dancing

Night or morning whatever it is.
Adam

Nessa

8th-November-2005, 07:11 AM

Okay, and having entered the caveat that the following post does in no way reflect the dogmatic views of the poster.......

I have to say how surprised I was when attending dance parties in the UK how terribly bouncy and off the beat the great majority of the dancers were. The couple who won a DWAS compatition at one of the parties I attended was in my opinion the only couple who DIDN'T do this, so it's obvious that the punters can appreciate the difference in style......
Having a previous injury to my elbow and ongoing neck and shoulder problems, I honestly think more care should be taken on the part of teachers to get rid of this bounce as it's terribly painful to partner someone who appears to be trying to lead you with a steel spring in their hand and a trampoline under their feet.
Safety first!

Now honestly, that was a fair assessment of most of the dancers at most of the dance events I got to! But there's no way I'm going to say that is the UK style, especially since I came home to Sydney and raved about the cool style of the dancers who partnered me over in Scotland and England. (loved the Blues room at Southport, if I die and go to Heaven can it be there please???)
But for a certain level of social dancer that is going to be what they're used to, what they feel is safe, and what they will repeat. Likewise for our dips. Time to cross-fertilize, guys!

Now I'm going to go back and read the other 2 pages of posts I haven't had time to get through here at work :blush: ......

David Franklin

8th-November-2005, 09:45 AM

I agree. Aerials do appear on the social floor, but very rarely, and I've not seen one that I would have said was performed close enough to other dancers to be unsafe.Well, in the 2 or 3 times I went to Ceroc in Sydney, one guy did an aerial close enough to me that I "felt the wind" as he spun his partner. And one guy did an aerial on my wife when we were "warming up" in lines during an extremely crowded class. Both were too close in my opinion.

But every week or two on this forum there is yet another post complaining about people performing aerials/lifts on the social floor in an unsafe manner, or about guys trying to lead them when the lady doesn't want to do them. It gives me the impression aerials are much more common on the UK social floor than the Australian one.

Unless we're all using different definitions...Largely the latter. I'm not sure you guys even consider small (lower than waist height) lifts as aerials. But by our definitions, I saw far more aerials in Sydney than I see over here. In fact, by UK definitions, there were probably 20 "naughty" aerials every evening in Sydney. (Not objectively bad, but too close by our standards).

Of course, the other side of things is the proportion of people who can do lifts properly here is tiny, so the odds are if someone does a lift in freestyle they're doing it badly and without control. And the more considerate dancers are all indoctrinated that you don't do lifts in social dancing. So you end up that pretty much the only people putting girls into lifts have bad technique and poor manners.

TiggsTours

8th-November-2005, 10:14 AM

I take it the UK has no people who believe they know everything after 2 to 3 classes?
Sure they do, but the don't have any teachers who teach drops in a beginners class!

David Bailey

8th-November-2005, 10:18 AM

OK, first of all, I'm noticing a disturbing "We're better than them", "No you're not", "Yes we are" tendency here. Can we just agree that there are useless and superb dancers everywhere, and leave it at that?

I don't know or care whether Australian dancers are "better" or "worse" than UK ones - I only care what my current dance partner is like. And I asked the question because I wanted to know, not because I wanted to pick a fight.

Personally, I don’t like labelling anything on a national basis because people have a nasty habit of experiencing a small area and then assume that everywhere else must be like that.
It's a point - but perhaps you should tell Aussie teachers like Simon Borland not to teach workshops entitled "Aussie style"... :whistle:

Don’t forget that there are good and bad teachers. To only experience the bad ones and then tar the whole county with that brush is a little unfair.
To be fair (well, there's always a first time), I don't think TiggsTours was quite going that far, she was simply relaying her personal experiences and viewpoint. She's an experienced (and good!) UK dancer, so I think her feedback is valuable, albeit necessarily subjective.

Ceroc Perth has consolidation classes for beginners - 1-12 weeks or as long as they wish to attend them - they have introducted an intromediate workshop about every 8-12 weeks to assist people moving up to intermediate - no regular intromediate classes
That's the one I was thinking of, I knew I'd seen it discussed before - welcome back Yliander!

Is this the same as saying that we teach stuff badly, so people stay intermediate for several years?
Ouch - harsh but fair :tears:

{ snip even more comprehensive post }
OK I need to conclude I can't sleep no idea which time zone I am in, I thouhgt I was heading back to NZ on wednesday now turns out i was wrong, It was wednesday but wednesday NZ so tuesday here so what the hell am I doing on here I need to pack.

:rofl:

TiggsTours

8th-November-2005, 10:45 AM

You certainly had a rough trip. Which venue(s) did you go to?

Don’t forget that there are good and bad teachers. To only experience the bad ones and then tar the whole county with that brush is a little unfair.
As I said later, I know I said teaching, but that wasn't really right, I meant freestyle dancing (which I equated to the standard of teaching, this may have been unfair). I danced at a number of venues around Sydney, and once in Brisbane, and I went to the champs in Sydney and danced with people from clubs from all over the country. The freestyle I had was always with guys who didn't listen to the music, wouldn't know a break if it slapped them in the face, and insisted on trying every flash drop and mini-aerial they knew, and because I didn't do drops & aerials on crowded floors with people I've never danced with, went on to tell me that the standard in the UK obviously wasn't as high!

Maybe I was unlucky enough to pick every single bad lead to dance with, and never a good one. I couldn't honestly say I've never had a night like that in the UK, but I can honestly say I haven't ever had a run of nights like that lasting 3 months either!

As I said to people while I was there, I think the level of competition dancing in Aus is higher than it is in the UK, but I think the level of social dance is higher in the UK. I'm lucky enough though that all my dancing is in London, where the level is really high, certainly other parts of the UK (not all, and I'm not naming any) aren't as high. I'm spoilt, about 70% of all my dances are with superb dancers. Maybe both sides of the world have something to learn from each other. Personally though, I far prefer social dance to competition dance. Even when watching competition, I'd far rather see a couple keeping it simple, and really communicating, than doing outstanding moves, with fantastic precision, and Miss World smiles. I find that all just a little to clinical for my taste.

KatieR

8th-November-2005, 11:02 AM

Its actually really good to get the perspectives of some really highly respected dancers. Im doing my best to fly the flag for the Aussies and cant wait to get back there for a bit in January! (Even if it is only for a little while :wink: )

I think we have had good reflection on both sides of the discussion.

Are you serious? I could imagine girls not wanting to dance with Aussie guys if they fear they'll be immediately thrown to the ground or in the air, but why would a guy not want to dance with an Aussie girl?

I was told that I had been avoided by certain people because knowing that I was Australian they were concerned that I would expect all these big moves and be disappointed with the dance.

I go by the rule of never turning down a dance (except in the case where the guy abuses his right to dance with me by trying to feel me up) and I always dance to the music not to the notion that I am Australian only like big flashy moves.

timbp

8th-November-2005, 11:09 AM

with guys who didn't listen to the music, wouldn't know a break if it slapped them in the face, and insisted on trying every flash drop
I hope that wasn't me!

I don't know when you visited, I'm not naturally musical, but I'm trying to learn to dance and I hope experts like you will take time to help me.

TiggsTours

8th-November-2005, 11:16 AM

I hope that wasn't me!

I don't know when you visited, I'm not naturally musical, but I'm trying to learn to dance and I hope experts like you will take time to help me.
I'm no expert, never claimed to be, but I am a taxi dancer, and spend plenty of time helping beginners, but the guys I was dancing with had been dancing for a few years. As I said, maybe I was just unlucky. I know alot of people like Aussie Ceroc, I just personally don't, I find it to clinical, and I hate big flashy moves, they tend to look like they've just been done for the sake of it. They look great in gymnastics, but not dancing, but thats just my opinion. That doesn't make me or anyone else, right or wrong, just differences in opinion.

Robert Winter

8th-November-2005, 11:36 AM

...Maybe I was unlucky enough to pick every single bad lead to dance with, and never a good one...Not at all. I think that some Aussie dancers should not be let loose on the dance floor.

It's a point - but perhaps you should tell Aussie teachers like Simon Borland not to teach workshops entitled "Aussie style"... :whistle:Interesting point. Sometimes I don't express myself very well, so I apologise for any misunderstanding.

I did not mean that there is no such thing as a national style, but that one should be cautious in using a too broader brush when it comes to painting that style.

For me a good dancer is first and foremost versatile. They should not focus so intently on one aspect of dance (be it aerials, musicality etc) to the exclusion of others.

I think her feedback is valuable, albeit necessarily subjective.I could not agree more. I like to hear feedback (especially negative) on what people think of Aussie dancing. I am just concerned that such strong comments may lead to unnecessarily harsh impressions of Australian dancing and are perhaps not indicative of what the dance scene in Australia is really like.

And in case people think I am being alarmist I will give a small illustration.

A couple of years ago, a dance championship was held in Australia. Almost no one from New Zealand came over. When inquires were made as to why, we were told that many New Zealanders had a very negative attitude to Australian Competitions because a NZ contingent was treated very rudely at a particular Australian event.

In Australia there are 12 + dance companies that run Ceroc/Modern Jive competitions. All of whom ended up on the negative end of comments and attitudes because of the actions of one company at one competition.

Australian dance companies have worked on this situation and it has since been amicably resolved (some NZ dancers have even said that if they knew it was this much fun in OZ they would have come over sooner), but it highlights the problems that arise from a generalised national criticism. Both the guilty and innocent parties suffer.

David Bailey

8th-November-2005, 11:41 AM

In Australia there are 12 + dance companies that run Ceroc/Modern Jive competitions.
Good God :eek: That's (way) more than in the UK...

I understand your point about simplifying a situation, but it does seem clear there is something called Aussie style, so I'm happy my question's been answered. I have knowledge :cool:

So, for my next trick, what is NZ style? :innocent:

Robert Winter

8th-November-2005, 11:44 AM

So, for my next trick, what is NZ style? :innocent:And you thought the question about Aussie style was contentious. :wink:

TiggsTours

8th-November-2005, 11:51 AM

Robert Winter

8th-November-2005, 11:56 AM

And many people (you just have to read countless other threads) agree that these moves should not be used on the social dance floor.I fully agree. Though, we do tend to have more room on our dance floors as we tend to hire venues which have a total capacity larger than the number of people we expect to attend. Which seems to be in contrast to the UK where the fire restriction seems to list 50 as the maximum capacity and 500 turn up.

Personally I seldom ever lead dips in social dancing. I can probably count the number I have used in the last year on one hand. To the extent that one girl I danced with in Sydney called me boring and asked if I could lead some more advanced moves on her.

cerocmetro

8th-November-2005, 12:19 PM

Good God :eek: That's (way) more than in the UK...

I understand your point about simplifying a situation, but it does seem clear there is something called Aussie style, so I'm happy my question's been answered. I have knowledge :cool:

So, for my next trick, what is NZ style? :innocent:

Again David you do have a habit of coming up with great questions.
NZ style is simple.

Both the dancers in NZ are very talented dancers. One dances a bouncy fun and energetic dance the other a smooth easy laid back style.

To be honest us KIWIS :wink: don't care.

BUT, ceroc NZ is NOT as controlled as OZ or UK. It tends to change from class to class area to area. We are currently trying to work out ourselves what it is. Recently whilst trying to put a dvd together for beginners it was realised that no teacher taught any move the same. So please do not get into NZ style. There isn't one:grin:

Amir is Kiwi, James Geary is a Kiwi they are very different dancers and both come from I believe the same classes.

Damn I love Ceroc:waycool:

Actually thinking about all these different styles reminds me of why I do love Ceroc. There are no rules. You can dance how you want, you can do what you want.

But if you want guidelines, try these;

1) Don't hurt your partner by either pulling pushing too forcefully
2) don't do any move on your partner they takes their own weight balance away unless you either know them very well or have asked to do it. Just doing a move coz a guy has signalled it is just like pulling out into another lane of traffic just coz you have indicated, nothing to do whether it is clear or not.
3) enjoy it and for the time you are dancing with your partner that is your world
4) listen to the music and see what happens. I dont mean oh yeah theres a beat but really listen and dance like you are on your own with your eyes shut.
5) stop attacking other dancers, we are all different, shape weight height etc and we will all have our own style. Add to that our style will change depending on who we are dancing with. If your partner is taller, shorter etc and of course if you connect and you can connect in many different ways.

So to come back to the original question, What is Ozzie style? dunno? :rofl:

"am I bovered?" (for ozzie friends this is not an insult but from a UK TV comedy :flower:

Adam

Robert Winter

8th-November-2005, 12:29 PM

BUT, ceroc NZ is NOT as controlled as OZ or UK.I was not aware that Ceroc in Australia was controlled.

There is a consistency of teaching techniques at Ceroc & Modern Jive Venues (BTW that is the name of Nicky's dance company) and I suspect that Mark at Ceroc Australia (once again his companies name) insists on his teachers using a certain formula. But both CA and CMJ have different teaching techniques, as does Le Bop, Ceroc Melbourne, Le Step etc. etc. So I don't know that we are that controlled.

DavidB

8th-November-2005, 12:41 PM

So, for my next trick, what is NZ style?The first ever Ceroc demonstration team was composed entirely of NZers. Although no record of their performances remains, their impact is still evident in two fundamental ways. They defined the standard dress code for ceroc men (all black), and the way the start of the dance is taught (the semi-circle) originally derived from their haka.

LMC

8th-November-2005, 12:48 PM

So it was the re-enactment of that before a sporting event a few years ago?

I've only danced with a few guys from Australia/NZ, and have found them all to be very strong leads - sometimes almost to the extent of yanking - sorry. Maybe that's because I'm too weak, but even these few seem to indicate to me that there is a difference in style between dancers from Down Under and those here in the UK.

timbp

8th-November-2005, 12:53 PM

the way the start of the dance is taught (the semi-circle) originally derived from their haka.

Please explain further.

It's no longer taught in Australia, but if it's derived from the haaka, we Australians need to know before the next world cup.

cerocmetro

8th-November-2005, 01:02 PM

I was not aware that Ceroc in Australia was controlled.

There is a consistency of teaching techniques at Ceroc & Modern Jive Venues (BTW that is the name of Nicky's dance company) and I suspect that Mark at Ceroc Australia (once again his companies name) insists on his teachers using a certain formula. But both CA and CMJ have different teaching techniques, as does Le Bop, Ceroc Melbourne, Le Step etc. etc. So I don't know that we are that controlled.

I meant controlled within each organisation as you say above. Yes there is a consistency of teaching techniques if you are lucky but again every teacher is different. Their body will move in a different way etc etc. and thank god for it otherwise whats the point of us being individuals.

Also just to further confirm that things are different everywhere, you say Robert you "suspect" Mark uses a formula. Well if you live in the same town and your venues to be honest are yards from eachother and you can only suspect, then how can we say there is an OZZie style or any other style come to that.

We are still talking about classes and social dancing I still think the thread, although I am of course assuming, was refering to the competition styles which I refer back to my previous posting earlier in this thread which must have some of the longest postings on the forum by the way.

Maybe just maybe controlled was the wrong word, I don't think it was. Nicky has control over her classes and what is taught, Mark his and every other or maybe every other organisation controls in this way. Believe me in NZ this is not the case, yet. The franchisees train their own teachers. They teach them if I may say that, the watered down version of what they know. There is NO control. Is this good or bad I have no idea and personally dont care. I teach how I teach and I am responsible for my teachers. I take severval months to train my teachers. An un-named franchise in NZ recently took an hour to train theirs.

I have 24 beginners moves in NZ, other franchisees and teachers have anything up to 87.

Now again please there are some brilliant franchisees there and they do an awesome job, but there are others who should not be and their teachers reflect this.

No we are not controlled in NZ and yes you are in Sydney, albeit by Nicky or the Franchise owner. However, I am controlled in the UK and TBH am grateful for that.

Now by coincidence do Marks dancers and Nickys dancers enter the same comps, of course and do you see the same judges, yes. Also were Mark and Nicky not partners in the same business until it split. Yes.

Therefore they are probably teaching a very similar product and the dancers still have a perception of what is required to win in a Sydney Champs which as per my list in my first posting in the thread.

Again I am most definitley NOT knocking any one in any way at all. The Ozzies do big moves in comps. They look great when done well. They are boring when done all the time. The Brits don't. OK so turn it round and say they are boring again "wha-eva" (same TV programme).

As regards the social dancers, I will enjoy a dance just as much with any good dancer anywhere around the world. It may be their first night. I will enjoy a dance with a not so good dance a little less, they may have been dancing for years. I will not enjoy a dance with a really bad dancer and I know some who have been dancing longer than me. These categories of dancer exist everywhere in every venue in every dance class in every country.

I think:sick:
Got to pack,, still
Adam

Yliander

8th-November-2005, 01:17 PM

Personally I seldom ever lead dips in social dancing. I can probably count the number I have used in the last year on one hand. To the extent that one girl I danced with in Sydney called me boring and asked if I could lead some more advanced moves on her.dancing with you dear can be disconcerting :wink: but never boring :)

Robert Winter

8th-November-2005, 01:23 PM

dancing with you dear can be disconcerting :wink: but never boring :)
Disconcerting. Why thank you... I think???

Yliander

8th-November-2005, 01:30 PM

Well I must say this thread has made for interesting reading

having read a lot of this forum and watched a number of clips of uk dancing and having had the occasional pleasure of dancing with uk leads my personal thoughts on the difference between uk style and aussie style is more to do with dance influences than an Aussie attraction to larger moves - what can I say we are an athletic nation :)

UK modern jive seems to have had much more influence from swing, lindy hop, wcs and the like than Aussie Modern Jive. Here I would say the influence has been more from latin dances (ballroom and street) and more recently funk.

Although I do believe we will be seeing some wcs influence coming out of Sydney given Roberts love affair with the style

Competition dancing in Australia is different to social dancing - which is not surprising really - its true for most dance styles - when i'm in a competition although my focus is my partner I know that to engage both the audience and the judges that I have to look out to them occasionally.

Yliander

8th-November-2005, 01:32 PM

Disconcerting. Why thank you... I think???Yes it's a compliment darlin

JamesGeary

8th-November-2005, 01:50 PM

JamesGeary

8th-November-2005, 02:01 PM

I have stood cringing in the corner on more than one occassion watching people try and do lifts and drops that they clearly arent ready for.

How can you be not ready for lifts/aerials/drops? Ability to do a lift has nothing to do with time spent or ability at dancing.

Its is a completely seperate skill, and the only measure of readyness for lifts would be what condition your body is in.

In fact I learnt the aerial "around the world/fly by night" at a party before I learnt anything about dancing.

Of course they will look crap the first time they try. Thats why its called the first time. Everyone will, you can't learn and do an aerial perfectly the first time.

ads

8th-November-2005, 02:05 PM

Gadget

8th-November-2005, 02:14 PM

Yliander

8th-November-2005, 02:27 PM

How can you be not ready for lifts/aerials/drops? Ability to do a lift has nothing to do with time spent or ability at dancing.

Its is a completely seperate skill, and the only measure of readyness for lifts would be what condition your body is in.
you can be ready for a lift/aerial/drop by having been taught proper technique - body condition/strength is second to technique if someone has not been taught proper technique for lift/aerial/drop then it is all going to end in tears sooner or later

TiggsTours

8th-November-2005, 02:34 PM

I think this thread has been allot about bitching,bravardo and sour grapes and not so much about dancing! People complain about flashy moves being part of the Aussie way in social dancing I say that these people are the ones fixated with moves!
If someone has proper dance technique and it is lead and followed correctly(non signiture moves) then it does not matter what you do it is all just movement. If you are worried about this then take some private lessons and lighten up!
How right you are, if someone has proper dance technique and lead and follow is carried out correctly, and there is appropriate room on the dance floor for the moves being carried out, I'll happily do anything that is led. However, having sustained, and seen, some quite serious injuries where this is not the case, yes, I think its safe to say that I am obsessed with the moves, or more like moves which should not be attempted by someone who is not aware of the risks of not carrying out the move correctly. For example, someone who is a beginner, and has been taught the move in a group beginner class.

David Franklin

8th-November-2005, 02:36 PM

you can be ready for a lift/aerial/drop by having been taught proper technique - body condition/strength is second to technique if someone has not been taught proper technique for lift/aerial/drop then it is all going to end in tears sooner or laterYes and no. You have to start somewhere, so at some point everyone learns lifts without knowing any technique. And the main prerequisites to learning how to do lifts are physical.

Of course, you try to build on the technique, but lifts are individual enough that you're often back to square one when it comes to learning a new one. And the technique is not terribly related to what you do in normal dance - 10 years of dance training are not going to help nearly as much as a year of sports acro.

[N.B. I think James is interpreting "ready" as "ready to learn", not "ready to perform on the social floor" etc...]

cerocmetro

8th-November-2005, 02:39 PM

you can be ready for a lift/aerial/drop by having been taught proper technique - body condition/strength is second to technique if someone has not been taught proper technique for lift/aerial/drop then it is all going to end in tears sooner or later

Actually and this could contradict a few things, I taught a lifts a drops workshops two weeks ago in London and yes I have to agree with Yliander technique is first. Many of the lifts which seem impossible are actually quite easy. Hey if I can lift someone up then anyone can. :rofl: total time spent in gym this year 0 hours. Total time spent eating healthily etc etc 0.

but anyway back on to thread, any volunteers for Jive Masters 2006? and of course there will be a DVD :whistle: An Ozzie won it first year, and I seem to recal seeing as I made the rules up that they only did 2 lifts, Robert & Nicky and then last year Vicktor won with smooth moves and silky smiles.

Both very different styles. The audience loved both, they must have done, they were the judges. But and heres the point they were all brilliant dancers doesn't matter what style.

so there it is, JiveMasters 2006 DVD n'll. Its official you heard about it here first. Also we are running the first JiveMasters down under. Watch out for details. We have been graced with the presence of the most amazing dancers from OZ be nice if we had a couple of Brits come out there.

Adam

cerocmetro

8th-November-2005, 02:53 PM

So, for my next trick, what is NZ style? :innocent:

Just realised something, Amir who everyone loves and tries to emulate is a Kiwi, is that becoming UK style?:eek: :waycool:

Putting Kiwi hat on, yeah us:clap:

David Franklin

8th-November-2005, 02:56 PM

Actually and this could contradict a few things, I taught a lifts a drops workshops two weeks ago in London and yes I have to agree with Yliander technique is first.Lift technique might be, but not dance technique. There are people doing sports acro who've never done a dance class in their lives and can do lifts way beyond anything you've seen in Ceroc.

http://membres.lycos.fr/asap/saph2000/fatswgb1.jpg

(And that picture is nothing compared with some of the moves DavidB has told me about!)

cerocmetro

8th-November-2005, 02:58 PM

Lift technique might be, but not dance technique. There are people doing sports acro who've never done a dance class in their lives and can do lifts way beyond anything you've seen in Ceroc.

http://membres.lycos.fr/asap/saph2000/fatswgb1.jpg

(And that picture is nothing compared with some of the moves DavidB has told me about!)

And I said no cameras at my workshop:angry: :rofl:
By the way this move was followed by a return and an armjive

David Franklin

8th-November-2005, 03:04 PM

By the way this move was followed by a return and an armjive[Sesame Street]
And brought to you by the letters 'T' and 'K'.
[/Sesame street]

If you look at the shapes the gymnasts are making and squint you can see why I picked those letters...

Minnie M

8th-November-2005, 03:16 PM

This thread has really moved since i last posted on it.........../big snip the whole post(No.62)/ .........Adam
wot a good post :cheers: :yeah: :worthy:

David Bailey

8th-November-2005, 03:18 PM

I don't know about different countries having that much of a different 'flavour' to their dancing; but I know for a fact that different venues and different teachers, even in the same city, have different flavours. Some of this has to do with the teaching, some to do with the music being played and some to do with the charicters attending.

Why should it be surprising or curious that dancing is different distance of 10,000 miles when it's different in a distance of 10??
Sure - in fact, I'm actually quite surprised how much of a distinct and uniform "Aussie Style" there apparently is. I too was sceptical if such a thing existed, I thought it was a marketing ploy, but I was wrong (!). There is an Aussie style, and it is distinct from the UK style; that seems clear from the posts made by People Who Know,

I think this thread has been allot about bitching,bravardo and sour grapes and not so much about dancing!
I disagree - I think this has mainly been a constructive, informative and useful discussion. I can now at least bluff my way through by dropping "But of course, if you're dancing Aussie style, then..." into my conversation :)

Minnie M

8th-November-2005, 04:03 PM

doc martin

8th-November-2005, 05:05 PM

Typically younger crowd

Well, it's not to my tastes either - but that's probably because I'm old with creaking joints, etc. 20 years ago, I'd probably have loved that sort of style...
DJ has brought up the question of age early in this thread and a couple of posters have alluded to it, but most people seem to be sidestepping it as an issue in the differences in styles.

This could just be an example of the younger posters not wanting to rub the noses of us senior (moments) members in the fact of our lost youth, but I think it may have more relevance than much of the discussion about it being 10,000 miles from London to Sydney (actually it is 10562 miles: membership of pedants club maintained :) ).

From what I can read into the posts, the average age of dancers in Australia is significantly lower than in the UK. From my own personal experience of getting older, I think that the way I would approach social dancing would have changed as I have aged. I say "would" because I didn't dance when I was in my 20s, but I do still remember what I was like :whistle: .

When I was in my 20s I would have seen the main point of dancing with someone as making myself look good. I would have been very concious of onlookers and of wanting them to watch me. I may also, as an item of secondary importance, have wanted look good to my partner. I may even have wanted my partner to look good as that would reflect on me. OK, so I was a show off and I doubt many are/were as self-centred as I was.

Nowadays the main point of the dance to me is in how it feels. And for it to feel good for me I have to know that it feels good for my partner too. For me to know how my partner is feeling I have to have a good connection. I don't find I can maintain that when doing complex moves. Plus many ladies have stated on various threads that feeling good in a dance requires first feeling safe and have made it abundantly clear that they do not feel safe doing drops/arials during social dancing.

Maybe I am getting more boring as my style evolves towards less moves and more interpretation and maybe I should start dancing in a cardie and slippers, but I do find that the ladies respond better to my current style than my "move monster" style of a few months ago.

Now, I know that I am generalising from my non-existent experience of 20 years ago to my current limited experience but I feel that the differences discussed in much of this thread could easily be attributed to the mellowing of age with no reference to where in the world you are.

I would be interested to hear the views of younger UK MJers and older Oz MJers in this context. These views might, to some extent, be influenced by the attitudes of those they dance with, but also might show that, for instance, younger UK followers would like to be doing more high energy moves than they generally get a chance too.

I know that this thread was originally about competition dancing and that people involved in competition dancing in the UK are probably more likely to be younger than the average freestyler at most venues, so apologies for again moving the thread towards discussion of social dancing.

David Bailey

8th-November-2005, 05:27 PM

I know that this thread was originally about competition dancing and that people involved in competition dancing in the UK are probably more likely to be younger than the average freestyler at most venues, so apologies for again moving the thread towards discussion of social dancing.
No, I think (from what I dimly recall of so long ago) this thread was about "style of dancing" - I didn't really define whether I meant competition dancing or social dancing.

But as I've been assured they're the same thing :innocent:, you're not moving the goalposts at all :whistle:

Minnie M

8th-November-2005, 05:36 PM

1) They will both extend their arms fully when turning out fro each other.:(
2) They will never into each others eyes.:sad:
3) They will never look at you watching they will look through you.:what:
4) They will fumble around terribly if the ceiling is low or the girl will be head butting the ceiling tiles.:devil:
5) They guy will be wearing a T-Shirt with no arms. It may be a sparkley T-Shirt:eek:
6) The Guy will have muscles that will allow him to wear a sparkly T-Shirt with no arms as he knows no one would be stupid enough to argue with him.:worthy:
7) The girl when spun around the guys neck at least 3 times and then accelerated to the floor stopping just millimeters away from the floor before be whisked through the guys legs and back up over his head will have a fixed smile the whole time and never look as though she is going to be sick or pass out:sick:
8) They will both be highly suntanned, probably fake tan:waycool:
9)They will perform many many many set pieces that involve the girl not wearing out the soles of her dance shoes:really:
10) and perhaps a dead give away, the guy will be wearing a peculiar yellow rubber hat neatly tied under his chin.:D

Adam
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Decided to go back to the beginning to read this thread

Lory

8th-November-2005, 05:43 PM

I think the main difference is, they seem to count to 10?..... and breath alot! (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=1900):whistle: :wink:

Whitebeard

8th-November-2005, 05:48 PM

........I have to say how surprised I was when attending dance parties in the UK how terribly bouncy and off the beat the great majority of the dancers were. The couple who won a DWAS compatition at one of the parties I attended was in my opinion the only couple who DIDN'T do this, so it's obvious that the punters can appreciate the difference in style....../snip/.....Now honestly, that was a fair assessment of most of the dancers at most of the dance events I got to! ......

- most of the Aussie leads I have danced with take a little getting used to, then they are fine - maybe it is you and not the lead that is giving you that impression ....
I'm not so sure about off the beat (part of musicality after all is playing with the music) but, out here in the sticks, even from my (low) ability level, I'd certainly agree with Nessa that there's far too much bounciness around and some beginners either arrive with it or somehow pick it up very very quickly. Up to a point I can put up with it but some followers are so bad as to really compromise the lead/follow and leave me quite mentally and physically exhausted by the end.

It all starts in the lesson line-up. Time to do a move to music and during the countdown we "go with the music to impress your partner". I am not impressed if, while I and my hand sway from side to side, my partner and her hand bounce up and down.

Minnie M

8th-November-2005, 06:01 PM

..... I'd certainly agree with Nessa that there's far too much bounciness around and some beginners either arrive with it or somehow pick it up very very quickly. ..../snip/..It all starts in the lesson line-up. Time to do a move to music and during the countdown we "go with the music to impress your partner". I am not impressed if, while I and my hand sway from side to side, my partner and her hand bounce up and down.
maybe it is regional, I haven't found THAT (the majority was mentioned) much bounciness down south and certainly didn't find much in Scotland :flower:

DavidB

8th-November-2005, 06:06 PM

David Franklin

8th-November-2005, 06:23 PM

The first ever Ceroc demonstration team was composed entirely of NZers. Although no record of their performances remains, their impact is still evident in two fundamental ways. They defined the standard dress code for ceroc men (all black), and the way the start of the dance is taught (the semi-circle) originally derived from their haka.

Please note - this is not a serious post.
You know, I thought that demo crew had suspiciously poor floorcraft! And some of the follows looked a bit, um, butch.

Mind you, that aerial they did where they all got in a line and lifted one man right up in the air was pretty cool... :whistle:

LMC

8th-November-2005, 06:24 PM

So it was the re-enactment of that before a sporting event a few years ago?
Please note - this is not a serious post either

:non-existent deadpan guy:

David Bailey

8th-November-2005, 08:01 PM

Please note - this is not a serious post.
:rofl: I dunno about Aussie style, but I suspect British Irony is still supreme :innocent:

Gary

9th-November-2005, 01:20 AM

...
Also we are running the first JiveMasters down under. Watch out for details.
For the last few years there has been a "Masters" section in most of the major comps over here (basically if you've won/placed in some number of Advanced finals, you have to move up to Masters).

We haven't had the JiveMasters format though (as I understand it: invite only, judged by audience instead of "professionals").

Very keen to hear more details.

We have been graced with the presence of the most amazing dancers from OZ"some of the most amazing dancers"
be nice if we had a couple of Brits come out there.

:yeah:

Something to consider: if there are big cultural differences between the UK and Aussie scenes, does that make for a big disadvantage for UK couples competing in Australia, particularly for an audience-judged event? Nicky/Robert and Louise/Adrian seemed to do OK in the JiveMasters format over there, though.

ads

9th-November-2005, 05:48 AM

I disagree - I think this has mainly been a constructive, informative and useful discussion. I can now at least bluff my way through by dropping "But of course, if you're dancing Aussie style, then..." into my conversation :)
I think that at an advanced level of that dance different styles do not matter because you adapt and blend and it is all just dance. All of this discussion is just to come to the conclusion that there is no definitive answer and it is about theory not true dancing! Honestly if you can lead/follow properly what does any of this matter anyway!

David Bailey

9th-November-2005, 08:31 AM

I think that at an advanced level of that dance different styles do not matter because you adapt and blend and it is all just dance. All of this discussion is just to come to the conclusion that there is no definitive answer and it is about theory not true dancing!
Maybe - I don't doubt that the top dancers in MJ are top dancers anywhere.

But, err, most of us aren't top dancers - and so it matters for the 99%+ of us who aren't at that level, because it affects us. For example, if I were to travel to Australia, I'd know a bit more about the style of dancing, and I might adjust what I laughingly call my technique to fit. Similarly, Aussie dancers coming over to the UK may perhaps have gained an idea of some of the style differences, and can maybe adjust their styles better.

I'm just a walking breathing public service to humanity, me :innocent:

Honestly if you can lead/follow properly what does any of this matter anyway!
I dunno, what does anything matter?

doc martin

9th-November-2005, 12:32 PM

..it is about theory not true dancing!
In theory, practise and theory are the same. In practise they are not.

MartinHarper

9th-November-2005, 03:28 PM

it is about theory not true dancing!

The various anecdotes and experiences posted here by people who have danced in both the UK and Australia are hardly theoretical, nor things I would wish to dismiss as "not true dancing".

Robert Winter

10th-November-2005, 02:04 AM

I think the main difference is, they seem to count to 10?..... and breath alot! (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=1900):whistle: :wink:Well how could we not end up breathing heavily with such hot girls like you to dance with.:flower:

ads

10th-November-2005, 06:04 AM

I think the main difference is, they seem to count to 10?..... and breath alot! (http://www.cerocforum.com/showthread.php?t=1900):whistle: :wink:
We are not always good at this though because as everyone knows Cerocers can only count to 8:tears:

adss

10th-November-2005, 11:22 PM

Something to consider: if there are big cultural differences between the UK and Aussie scenes, does that make for a big disadvantage for UK couples competing in Australia, particularly for an audience-judged event? Nicky/Robert and Louise/Adrian seemed to do OK in the JiveMasters format over there, though.

I'm not sure that the UK Jive Masters is a comp to refer to in this topic, as competitors can dance any style they liked. Simon S, for example, in the finals he danced tango, jive, swing/lindy hop .... to display his interpretation of the played music/songs - fantastic by the way!! So from that comp, I certainly could not stereotype a UK dance style. Especially if I looked at some of the other dancers as well: i.e Viktor - not many in the UK dance (that I witnessed) as he does.

Not having a go at you Gary .... although ..... you did tell me I got a big nose :rofl:

adss

10th-November-2005, 11:34 PM

Similarly, Aussie dancers coming over to the UK may perhaps have gained an idea of some of the style differences, and can maybe adjust their styles better.

I can attest to this, as two weeks in the UK had a fantastic ripple effect in my dancing. Your (UK) passion for Blues was inspiring and I have been working on it since I got back. Your packed dance floors made me more cautious about my spacing even when on a big empty floor. Before someone takes this as OZ dancers having no awareness of other dancers around them, let me add that my learning was based on the fact that others often danced into me. At one venue - Hipsters - I did an experiment with a girl , resulting from a comment that someone made that OZ dancers have no space awareness, and just rocked from side to side and counted how many dancers would collide into us - ..... we stopped counting after the first minute as we declared it a dodgem cars venue :rofl: -

David Bailey

11th-November-2005, 08:54 AM

I did an experiment with a girl , resulting from a comment that someone made that OZ dancers have no space awareness, and just rocked from side to side and counted how many dancers would collide into us - ..... we stopped counting after the first minute as we declared it a dodgem cars venue :rofl: -
It's weird, but it's much more difficult for me to avoid a couple who aren't moving much (or worse yet, standing still, grrr), than ones who are moving "normally".

I think it's because, if they're moving normally, they'll be creating spaces I can use, but if not, they're just an obstacle to avoid; in fact, I have to give them a wider berth than normal in case they do suddenly decide to move in one direction or another.

Is that just me, or do others find that as well?

KatieR

11th-November-2005, 10:29 AM

Similarly, Aussie dancers coming over to the UK may perhaps have gained an idea of some of the style differences, and can maybe adjust their styles better.

I think that I will be going home with a different style adjustment, I think my dancing will be more stylish and my interpretation of the music will be a lot better, however this could also just be that because I have improved quite a lot since I was there in January (when I started) and it is just the natural progression of a persons dancing...

MartinHarper

11th-November-2005, 10:32 AM

Is that just me, or do others find that as well?

I always figured it was due to the way peripheral vision is keyed off movement. If someone's not moving, it can be hard to spot them out of the corner of my eye.

It's a good excuse for wearing sparkly tops, anyway.

MouthoftheSouth

13th-November-2005, 11:01 PM

So, for my next trick, what is NZ style? :innocent:

Whatever we bloody well want it to be! :yum: :clap: :cheers:

you got a problem with that?:innocent:

A ceroc teacher over here was recently heard to comment that no 2 franchises taught the same thign the same way - even (or especially??:rolleyes: ) when they are in close proximity to each other.

David Bailey

14th-November-2005, 09:33 AM

Whatever we bloody well want it to be! :yum: :clap: :cheers:

you got a problem with that?:innocent:

A ceroc teacher over here was recently heard to comment that no 2 franchises taught the same thign the same way - even (or especially??:rolleyes: ) when they are in close proximity to each other.
So, another way of putting that, is that there is no such thing as "NZ style", is that what you're saying? :innocent:

MouthoftheSouth

15th-November-2005, 01:52 AM

Of course not - what I'm saying is that we're stylish any way we want to be:waycool:

doc martin

15th-November-2005, 01:57 AM

Of course not - what I'm saying is that we're stylish any way we want to be:waycool:
Which is another way of saying that there is no such thind as an NZ style, which is another way of saying that each person has style in their own way, which is... hang on... I'm getting deja vu again.:eek:

David Bailey

15th-November-2005, 09:21 AM

Of course not - what I'm saying is that we're stylish any way we want to be:waycool:
Monk of Cool, are you?

Which is another way of saying that there is no such thind as an NZ style, which is another way of saying that each person has style in their own way, which is... hang on... I'm getting deja vu again.:eek:
:rofl: :yeah:

No, seriously, I am interested in this stuff - as you can tell from this thread. It's difficult to identify the style of your own area, because you're so used to it.

And it sounds like there isn't (yet?) a clearly-identifiable NZ style, in the way (it seems) there is a clearly-identifiable Aussie style.

(Possibly NZ style will be "Adam-style", now there's a scary thought... :whistle: )

pjay

15th-November-2005, 09:26 AM

:rofl: :yeah:

No, seriously, I am interested in this stuff - as you can tell from this thread. It's difficult to identify the style of your own area, because you're so used to it.

And it sounds like there isn't (yet?) a clearly-identifiable NZ style, in the way (it seems) there is a clearly-identifiable Aussie style.

(Possibly NZ style will be "Adam-style", now there's a scary thought... :whistle: )

I suspect that in order to get a hold on NZ style we probably need to get someone who is deeply involved in NZ to take a look and compare to something else...

I'm from NZ orginally and have been dancing in Australia for 6 years now, but can't for the life of me figure out what NZ style is (obviously too long since I visited)....

A friend who was recently in NZ talked about Kiwi's dancing more around each other rather than "performing to a front" (which was their comparison with Aussie style).

Another friend who had moved over from NZ talked about the Kiwi guys being more focused on their partner and less on themselves that Australians.

Disclaimer: I'm just passing on what people have said to me... I think I'll be in Auckland sometime early next year... I'll see if I can come up with some kind of comparison...

dancefiend

15th-November-2005, 02:13 PM

Performance dancing is quite different from social dancing. If all you've seen is dacing at competition with big moves / sequences and all - it is nothing like 99.9% of the dancing we do.

i think a lot of us have our individual style. Those who are into swing have brought alot of that in.

I do quite a bit of salsa - which makes my ceroc quite latin american like. Different continent but south nonetheless :D

David Bailey

15th-November-2005, 02:22 PM

Performance dancing is quite different from social dancing. If all you've seen is dacing at competition with big moves / sequences and all - it is nothing like 99.9% of the dancing we do.
Actually, I think the consensus for Aussie style is that the difference between competition and social dancing is less than it is in the UK.

i think a lot of us have our individual style. Those who are into swing have brought alot of that in.
Yeah, but that's not the issue - in the same way that no-one seriously expects all Aussies to dance exactly the same way, or all UK dancers for that matter.

The question is whether there's an underlying "national style" - and from the responses, it seems that there is for Australia, but that there isn't for NZ, at least not yet.

Martin

15th-November-2005, 08:10 PM

Sure they do, but the don't have any teachers who teach drops in a beginners class!

I am still reading through this thread, and will reply more fully, but I have to say, as have Robert and Gary - drops are not taught in beginners classes here.:angry:

Maybe one dick-head teacher did one at one stage sometime ago - who knows... What was the drop taught? Who was the teacher?

pjay

15th-November-2005, 09:03 PM

Actually, I think the consensus for Aussie style is that the difference between competition and social dancing is less than it is in the UK.

This is what I was referring to - although I must admit that the comment was made based on a competition this friend did in NZ - and probably refers more as a comparison in competition styles - regardless the comparison was that the kiwi's were more to each other, and Aussies more to an audience - I think primarily based on the competition - (but of course the person had done parties etc when there too).

Also I would note that while there is a difference between social dancing and competition dancing I think that in the same country we tend to see similarities... I think that competition dancing tends to be "take the way that we think dancing looks best, and perform that", and social dancing tends to be "take that way that we think dancing is best, and do that." I, for one, think that there is only a very subtle difference between the two (But hey, maybe that is part of why I've never done well in competitions).

Yeah, but that's not the issue - in the same way that no-one seriously expects all Aussies to dance exactly the same way, or all UK dancers for that matter.

I think this is a very important statement in relation to this entire thread, or to any "general" comments about a large (or even a relatively small) group of people.

The question is whether there's an underlying "national style" - and from the responses, it seems that there is for Australia, but that there isn't for NZ, at least not yet.

I think that there probably is some kind of 'underlying national style' in NZ, I think that that style is probably "whatever we want to to be" (we referring to people dancing in NZ), but that it has probably been significantly influenced by Angelique. I think we (on this forum) have just not yet found words to describe what that style is.

I think to find those words it would be valuable to get someone who can compare 'Kiwi dancing' to that of other countries and then some discussion of exactly what is meant, all the time keeping in mind that a countries style is made up of the huge range of individual styles that exist within that country and trying to extract what is common in the range - not necessarily something that is "liked" by either the participants or the observer (in fact usually in the first instance these comment are things that the observer doesn't like - because they are different from what s/he is used to).

(right I feel like I've written a lot of babble now!)

Whitebeard

15th-November-2005, 09:10 PM

(right I feel like I've written a lot of babble now!)

Don't worry about that. As DavidJames himself would say, that's what the forum's all about.

pjay

15th-November-2005, 09:20 PM

Don't worry about that. As DavidJames himself would say, that's what the forum's all about.

It's not so much that I'm worried... just know that often I see a long post from someone and end up not reading it (sorry girls/guys, I'm sure you have wonderful things to say, and I'm sad that I miss out on your pearls of wisdom).

David Bailey

15th-November-2005, 09:33 PM

It's not so much that I'm worried... just know that often I see a long post from someone and end up not reading it (sorry girls/guys, I'm sure you have wonderful things to say, and I'm sad that I miss out on your pearls of wisdom).
It was a great post, pjay, very nice to read.

Practice the speed-reading, that's my advice. :)

pjay

16th-November-2005, 08:33 AM

It was a great post, pjay, very nice to read.

Practice the speed-reading, that's my advice. :)

Yeah, I have been trying to speed it up for years, but still find myself a long way behind friends... oh well...

Time to go dance some Lindy...

doc martin

16th-November-2005, 10:53 AM

I am still reading through this thread, and will reply more fully, but I have to say, as have Robert and Gary - drops are not taught in beginners classes here.:angry:

Maybe one dick-head teacher did one at one stage sometime ago - who knows... What was the drop taught? Who was the teacher?
Given that the guy definitely said he had been taught the drop in a beginner classs and that drops are never taught in beginner classes, I think there is only one conclusion.

He was lying. Why? Perhaps he realised the person he tried the drop on was angry that someone of his inexperience/ineptitude had attempted a drop and was trying to justify why he had attempted it.

It's the sort of thing people say on the spur of the moment to someone who couldn't know whether they are lying and who they will probably never see again.

pjay

16th-November-2005, 12:09 PM

Given that the guy definitely said he had been taught the drop in a beginner classs and that drops are never taught in beginner classes, I think there is only one conclusion.

He was lying. Why? Perhaps he realised the person he tried the drop on was angry that someone of his inexperience/ineptitude had attempted a drop and was trying to justify why he had attempted it.

It's the sort of thing people say on the spur of the moment to someone who couldn't know whether they are lying and who they will probably never see again.

Or on the other hand he may have been legitimately confused, or maybe once upon a time some teacher decided that he or she would teach a drop in a beginners class (not saying that this is the norm - and s/he would probably have gotten in trouble for it, but it could have happened even though the policy is that is doesn't).

doc martin

16th-November-2005, 12:47 PM

Or on the other hand he may have been legitimately confused, or maybe once upon a time some teacher decided that he or she would teach a drop in a beginners class (not saying that this is the norm - and s/he would probably have gotten in trouble for it, but it could have happened even though the policy is that is doesn't).
Well I can't see someone being confused about whether they have been taught a drop or not, particularly as after three classes they wouldn't have too many other moves to get it confused with. But, yeah, maybe an overenthusiatic teacher is a possibility, albeit a rather scary one.

I still prefer my explanation (then again I usually do :whistle: ).

cerocmetro

17th-November-2005, 01:03 AM

I suspect that in order to get a hold on NZ style we probably need to get someone who is deeply involved in NZ to take a look and compare to something else...

Well guess I might as well take this one on :rofl:

A friend who was recently in NZ talked about Kiwi's dancing more around each other rather than "performing to a front" (which was their comparison with Aussie style).

Ozzie comp style is very much to the front. All the OZ champs I have seen have the judges sat down in front of the dancers. In the UK champs the judges sit around the floor and also move around the floor so I think that explains the one dimension OZ and omni directional UK and Kiwi style which also had moving judges.

Another friend who had moved over from NZ talked about the Kiwi guys being more focused on their partner and less on themselves that Australians.
Maybe the Kiwi girls are better to look at. :rofl: :whistle:
But more likely the Ozzie style is not just competiton driven but very performance driven. Therefore the audience is possibly a priority focus. Recently we had Haimish teach in Wellington. Although a Kiwi he is living in Sydney and dances with Deanna who is a brilliant Ozzie dancer/teacher. It was noted that his freestyle dancing at the Ball was very different to his performance dancing. In performing he focused on the audience, had over exaggerated moves and set facial expressions. When dancing freestyle he focused on his partner.

But and I have mentioned this already albeit a few people got a little defensive about it so I will try and re-phrase, IN Ceroc UK the teachers are all trained over a whole week just to teach beginners. The moves are extremely well defined and you can now go to any class in the UK and the moves are taught the same way using similar words and style.

Ceroc OZ has two Ceroc camps (now). Both are very well led from the top and the moves defined clearly and the teachers trained well. In some cases the teachers have a rota of what to teach even for the intermediate classes.

It follows that in both countries a style is easy to create because of this uniformity. Additionally both Nicky Haslam and Mark Harding have travalled a lot to the UK, taught and performed there. They are bound to have picked up some UK style and taken it back with them Ange however I don't think has been back to the UK for a very long time and so has had not external influences on her style. Therefore nothing new to pass on to her teachers in Auckland let alone the rest of NZ nolt that the teachers around the country ever get together like for example the annual updates in the UK.

In NZ as Mouth of the South said, we have no set style. Every area/franchise dances a different way, call moves different things uses very different music. This is beacuse there is NO centralised teacher training. A local franchisee takes, I heard about an hour to train her teachers. I started training 3 last night and we have a 5 week programme just for beginners.

The Wellington style was when I arrived very aggresive. The posture was for both partners to lean back when stepping back which pulled on the shoulders and arms. This is now changing dramatically with the girls becoming more upright and the men having their weight forward so as not pulling the girls off balance and using a lot more weight transferance to dictate move transition. We also have the girls dancing more in a slot. The main reason I pushed this was to stop the girls anticipating moves and giving the guys more of a chance to lead moves more accurately.

Obviously I am influencing the style here in Wellington. Right or wrong who knows or even cares, I just want people to enjoy dancing and not end up in physio everyday.

So to conclude, Ozzie style performance driven well organised, UK style social driven well organised, NZ style, we have a great rugby team.:clap:

Adam

doc martin

17th-November-2005, 11:14 AM

*snip on thread stuff* ...we have a great rugby team.
I was just about to give you some +ve rep, then I read the last sentence. You couldn't leave it could you? You couldn't even wait until after Saturday when the grand slam will be in the bag (yes, I am ignoring the Scotland game).

It was a well considered post though. I am sure that some who know more about NZ ceroc will pick on some of your points, but your conclusions seemed very logical.

cerocmetro

17th-November-2005, 12:38 PM

I was just about to give you some +ve rep, then I read the last sentence. You couldn't leave it could you? You couldn't even wait until after Saturday when the grand slam will be in the bag (yes, I am ignoring the Scotland game).

:blush: :rofl:

dancefiend

18th-November-2005, 10:19 AM

Actually, I think the consensus for Aussie style is that the difference between competition and social dancing is less than it is in the UK.

Yeah, but that's not the issue - in the same way that no-one seriously expects all Aussies to dance exactly the same way, or all UK dancers for that matter.

The question is whether there's an underlying "national style" - and from the responses, it seems that there is for Australia, but that there isn't for NZ, at least not yet.

I don't think there is a national style in Australia for social dancing. Influences on our ceroc come from west coast swing, rock & roll and over the last few years - latin stuff like salsa and cha cha.

There is probably a consensus approach if you are into point scoring at a comp but social dancing nah, its individual.

David Bailey

18th-November-2005, 11:18 AM

I don't think there is a national style in Australia for social dancing. .
Weeell, I hesitate to express too strong an opinion ( :rofl: ), as I've not encountered many Aussie dancers, and not been to Australia.

But the majority of posters on this thread seem to disagree with you - and most of them have had such experiences. And, again, I go back to the point that Simon Borland explicitly teaches "Aussie style", so presumably he also thinks there is a distinct national style.

Of course, it's difficult to define that style except in comparison with other national styles, I imagine. So I wouldn't have a clue what "UK style" is, for example. But I think it probably exists...

dancefiend

18th-November-2005, 12:23 PM

Weeell, I hesitate to express too strong an opinion ( :rofl: ), as I've not encountered many Aussie dancers, and not been to Australia.

But the majority of posters on this thread seem to disagree with you - and most of them have had such experiences. And, again, I go back to the point that Simon Borland explicitly teaches "Aussie style", so presumably he also thinks there is a distinct national style.

Of course, it's difficult to define that style except in comparison with other national styles, I imagine. So I wouldn't have a clue what "UK style" is, for example. But I think it probably exists...

There're many many more dancers in aust who don't come to the forum. My take is that - the style depends alot on the skill level. Intermediate levels may be just developing their own style. Even when we reach advance level our style continues to evolve. How I approached ceroc 3 yrs ago is quite different to now.

I've danced with UK ppl afew times. Attendend 1 class when I was in London. That class they didn't do many dips. But then again I danced with a visitor from UK who does hip hop - now her style is very differnt to anything I'd come across. Adapting to what she does - our dance looked very non ceroc.

Perhaps you can find greater distinction between individuals than between geographic regions.

David Bailey

18th-November-2005, 03:00 PM

There're many many more dancers in aust who don't come to the forum.
Oh sure - the Forum is a very unrepresentative collection, and I'd not assume otherwise. Bunch of remour-mongering repbrobates, basically. :innocent:

My take is that - the style depends alot on the skill level. Intermediate levels may be just developing their own style. Even when we reach advance level our style continues to evolve. How I approached ceroc 3 yrs ago is quite different to now.
Again, no problem with this, that's how it should be.

I've danced with UK ppl afew times. Attendend 1 class when I was in London. That class they didn't do many dips. But then again I danced with a visitor from UK who does hip hop - now her style is very differnt to anything I'd come across. Adapting to what she does - our dance looked very non ceroc.

Perhaps you can find greater distinction between individuals than between geographic regions.
Quite likely - I too was fairly sceptical at the start (read the first post) whether any differences in national style could actually be discerned, above individual dance styles for different people. I half-thought "Aussie style" was a marketing ploy, in fact.

But I've been persuaded that it exists by the consistency of descriptions from people in this thread, that there is indeed a difference in styles, at social-dancing level.

Also, I want to re-iterate, I don't believe in any values of "Good" or "Bad" for comparisons, they're just different. From what I've heard, the style isn't what I'd like, but that's purely personal preference.

dancefiend

19th-November-2005, 01:29 AM

"Oh sure - the Forum is a very unrepresentative collection, and I'd not assume otherwise. Bunch of remour-mongering repbrobates, basically."

There's a ceroc forum in Aust. and even then it is only a handful of ppl who posts there. Most ppl I know don't even post on the australian ceroc forum - let alone the one at scotland.

Because dance style is "personal", if you see it through their eyes and not danced with enough ppl in Aust - it'll be hard to daw a conclusion.

ads

19th-November-2005, 05:18 AM

Hard to define style but I try and teach people to be smooth and not bounce, to blend there moves, hit the breaks and capture the mood of the music, engage their dance partners and occasionaly the crowd and encourage the ladies to play. I think our dancing is dynamic and always changing as we strive to improve and incorporate different dance styles.

Noteable differences are that we do dips and multiple spins.

RogerR

19th-November-2005, 01:04 PM

Having counted Nicky Haslam among my dancing partners before she emigrated, and danced with her since; My understanding of Australian Style is that it is another derivative from the '80s Busby's club style. Which is hardly surprising as Nicky Haslam and Simon de Lisle were both leading lights there.

There were very advanced dancers who did routines to particular tunes, and fitted the dance and the tune together well. There were many people who would practise airsteps on the carpeted bits for taking onto the dance floor later. This was the end of an era of a show team who actually performed at Sadlers Wells, and the beginning of "taking it out to the masses". Some of the moves were originally choreographed to face the front for display purposes, and some of these have evolved to face partner for social dancing.

The standard of dance classes then seemed higher, The inter class was a big leap from the beginner's and the advanced was a further huge leap and only by personal invitation and invitation fron James Cronin. However there were only in the region of 2 - 300 ceroc dancers then, one club -Busby's - first one night then mtw&t 4 whole nights. Oh and parking was free after 6.30 on Tottenham Court road.

The Bringing ceroc to the masses required a model change and the class standards had to be brought together to minimise leakage losses

dancefiend

20th-November-2005, 04:20 AM

Roger,

I was one of the earlier dancers in Ceroc when it started in Aust. That time it was taught by Mark & Nicky before they went separate ways. I think Nicky's dancing has evolved from the early days. At that time there was a lot more emphasis on spinning and doing rotational moves.

Areals have probably gotten even more extreme but over the last 3 years I would think it has platued off. There's probably more diversity in "australian ceroc" now then there was in the past.

RogerR

20th-November-2005, 11:58 AM

Nicky has always been stunningly good at spinning! So spins and rotational moves are to be expected! At a ceroc event at Busby's there would be people on the carpeted sides either rehearsing bits from the class routine or developing the moves further, including upwards and downwards

There was an "incident" in London and several of the best and best looking dancers were made unwelcome at ceroc. Most of them left the dance or area, not all by that many miles though.

After this ceroc matured and became less dance orientated and more business orientated. Growth, venues, advertising, attraction and retention of new members, and risk avoidance and disclaimers alll came to the fore. At the same time the move against airsteps & lifts etc partly for rik avoidance on the promoters part and partly because with bulk beginners arriving there was no longer the skill base or fitness level, hence the hazard and risk increased greatly.

The Australian style as demonstrated by Nicky Haslam is a development from the early London style with lots of excitement and an expectation that beginners will progress (also if they haven't made the grade they do NOT get to intermediate classes!)

The current UK style is developed from the same stock, BUT with a restricted requirement to progress ( intermediate in 6 classes or less) so that beginners will stay in commercial quantities (and clog an inter class -holding it back to beginners 2 -) While avoiding risk and hazard by removing moves where the UK's declining standard of fitness would be challenged.

Andreas

25th-November-2005, 09:16 PM

While avoiding risk and hazard by removing moves where the UK's declining standard of fitness would be challenged.

This can indeed be a major reason for the direction UK MJ has taken. However, as you stated earlier, I'd also call it 'maturity'. Changing the emphasis from 'just (stunning) moves' to music and partner is something that enriches the dance. Admittedly, attitude w/o moves lacks just as much as moves w/o attitude. though, I'd say that it is a higher level of dancing if you can 'master' musicality and 'emotion' than executing moves of extreme difficulty.

A non-dancer audience will also appreciate a musical and emotional dance much more than an impressive dance. Impressive moves can only catch the attention of the audience, e.g. in a pub, for perhaps two or three tracks. Then they will actually turn towards the people that work with music and give a feel to the dance. I have seen that often in the past, in Sydney and Melbourne jsut as much as in New Zealand. So obviously either the step of 'evolution' over there has not reached that in the UK or (more likely) the evolution has taken a turn that simply made MJ a sport rather than an entertainment venture. (Not saying that we dance to entertain others, though.)

dancefiend

26th-November-2005, 02:44 AM

So obviously either the step of 'evolution' over there has not reached that in the UK or (more likely) the evolution has taken a turn that simply made MJ a sport rather than an entertainment venture. (Not saying that we dance to entertain others, though.)

It's probably the latter - because Ceroc in Sydney has been around for around 15 yrs. The dancers you see today performing are not usually the original dancers from 15 years ago - they're a new generation of dancers.

There's also a big difference in performing for a audience and social dancing with partners. Althoght there is a sweet spot where being a good social dancer also looks good to an audience - to be a stunning performer is certainly a different evolutionary objective.

In Sydney we have dancers who take one route and some who take the other. Unfortauntely the photos you see on the Sydney websites are the performers - because they look good on still shots.

RogerR

26th-November-2005, 10:15 PM

dancefiend

27th-November-2005, 02:47 AM

The reported (I've never been there) Australian "permit to pass out of beginners" seems to allow a higher standard of teaching and dancing in Inter and Adv classes. Here in the UK beginner classes attract beginners ( as intended ). BUT without a separate beginners2 class, the beginners join the inter class long before they can master the basics and the genuine inters have to make do with a beginners2 class. -Limiting the standard achievable.

I would say that some of that also goes on in classes in Aust. It's inevitible when you have a large class. Its also partly on the responsibility of the teacher not to pitch the class to the lowest common denominator.

No problems with having some ppl struggling in the class - as long as they are not dangerous moves. A lot of how I'd learned is working things out in free style.

The problem is actually having beginners who prefer to sit on the sidelines during free style session instead of taking the initiative and practicing.

Jeremy

28th-November-2005, 06:16 AM

I would say that some of that also goes on in classes in Aust. It's inevitible when you have a large class. Its also partly on the responsibility of the teacher not to pitch the class to the lowest common denominator.

Very little happens over here (AUS). There are a few thread on the other forum about it. Generally Beginners stay in the Beginner Progression class for at least 8-10 weeks. Some MJ venues test a student before allowing them into the intermediate class.

I guess the main difference is that the beginners have somewhere else to go besides the intermediate class, and after watching the intermediate demo most feel quite happy to stay in the BP class for a while yet.

The problem is actually having beginners who prefer to sit on the sidelines during free style session instead of taking the initiative and practicing.

We get that here too. It included me too when I was a beginner. I would dance quite happily with other beginners but not with more experienced ladies.

Jeremy

28th-November-2005, 06:22 AM

In Sydney we have dancers who take one route and some who take the other. Unfortauntely the photos you see on the Sydney websites are the performers - because they look good on still shots.

Sometimes we will be dancing quite happily socially and notice these white flashes. Look around and there is a camera! Oh, they want some good looking shots. Okay - here is a nice dip for the camera. FLASH! Blink blink, back to social dancing :nice:

I guess it comes back to whether social dancing and performing to an audience are mutually exclusive.

Most of the Sydney 'performers' are also excellent social dancers. They know how to feel the music, interpret it and also how to do so in a way that can look good to an audience.

Yliander

28th-November-2005, 08:59 AM

A non-dancer audience will also appreciate a musical and emotional dance much more than an impressive dance. Impressive moves can only catch the attention of the audience, e.g. in a pub, for perhaps two or three tracks. I have to disagree with this - non dance audiences don't have an appreciation for more technical performances - they want flash and show - an audience of dancers on the other hand does.

One performance I was part of we did lovely technical stuff and while it was enjoyed - the request from the organsiers was for something a bit more dramatic - lifts etc

David Bailey

28th-November-2005, 09:55 AM

I have to disagree with this - non dance audiences don't have an appreciation for more technical performances - they want flash and show - an audience of dancers on the other hand does.
:yeah: I'd like to be able to disagree with you and agree with Andreas, but I think it takes time and experience to learn to appreciate the non-flashy stuff. Dance appreciation is like wine appreciation, you need to train and develop your "palate".

And for the general public, yes, it's always the aerials that get the biggest claps; Dirty Dancing's got a lot to answer for. :mad:

Andreas

28th-November-2005, 01:32 PM

dancefiend

28th-November-2005, 02:41 PM

Sometimes we will be dancing quite happily socially and notice these white flashes. Look around and there is a camera! Oh, they want some good looking shots. Okay - here is a nice dip for the camera. FLASH! Blink blink, back to social dancing :nice:

I guess it comes back to whether social dancing and performing to an audience are mutually exclusive.

Most of the Sydney 'performers' are also excellent social dancers. They know how to feel the music, interpret it and also how to do so in a way that can look good to an audience.

Yes I agree and see what you mean - you can be good at both if you train in both. I was saying that if you train in one it doesn't mean you'll be good at both.

For example when you dance in a routine - the moves are scripted - the necessity of lead and follow is a lot less important. Plus you're training with one partner to perfection as opposed to adapting to many partners to smooth out the errors. The things we do for performance can be cheorograped whereas social dancing has to be led / followed.

But having said that at some point the 2 overlaps - eg. dipping for the camera

dancefiend

28th-November-2005, 02:47 PM

I'd agree with you if your audience would only see you dance three or four tracks. They will certainly get bored of flash moves if you keep doing them for hours. The simple reason for that is that the wow factor wears off and yields to the 'how do they do it' factor. They simply can't comprehend too difficult moves and it starts to strain. Whereas, even if they are not able to interpret music themselves, they are actually able to UNDERSTAND what you are doing if you place breaks in the appropriate parts f the music and translate the emotion of the music.

At least that is what I have witnessed numerous times. Again, I am talking about dancing for hours rather than for just a few tracks. :flower:

A reason for the big move = wow factor is because the audience is sitting some distance from the dancers. Any change in height looks dramatic. Like in ballet jumping around and all that.

Even in performance martial arts like caporera or Jackie Chan kung fu does all the high kicks and cartwheels because it looks good not because it fights.

It's much harder to pickout the finer details of led and followed. Actually it is something that is felt by your partner - not necessarily seen at all. The best things are actually hidden!!!!!!

Robert Winter

2nd-December-2005, 12:53 AM

Ozzie comp style is very much to the front. All the OZ champs I have seen have the judges sat down in front of the dancers. In the UK champs the judges sit around the floor and also move around the floor so I think that explains the one dimension OZ and omni directional UK and Kiwi style which also had moving judges.Nice play on words. But I think you meant to say one directional Aussie style not one dimentional.

Having judges all around is a great excuse for dancers who can't dance to a front.

Take any couple from your local venue and just watch them dance socially. They will generally not have a front, ie they will dip, freeze pose and strut to every corner of the room.

Then ask that couple of dance to a front and present everything to a fixed audience. You would be amazed how many people struggle with it and do man breakthrough (UK man spin) again and again try to line their front up.

I believe it is a challenge for a dancer to be aware of a front and have to dance to it. I don't have a problem with judges roving around, but think the dancers should be told "that is the front, dance to it. You will loose marks if you keep showing the audience your ass when you dip."

Andreas

2nd-December-2005, 08:25 PM

Having judges all around is a great excuse for dancers who can't dance to a front.

I agree! It is a great excuse for people who either cannot dance to a front or don't actually think of it.

However, having judges move around the floor should not actually influence that at all. In a competition (or demonstration) one dances to the audience, not the judges. I back the call for moving judges because they simply get a 2D impression, rather than a 1D, if you want to say so.

:flower:

dancefiend

3rd-December-2005, 02:57 AM

Having judges all around is a great excuse for dancers who can't dance to a front.

I believe it is a challenge for a dancer to be aware of a front and have to dance to it. I don't have a problem with judges roving around, but think the dancers should be told "that is the front, dance to it. You will loose marks if you keep showing the audience your ass when you dip."

Not really. I see this as being different rules in different comps. And its just a matter of training for the set of rules you'll be performing under.

MartinHarper

3rd-December-2005, 03:15 AM

Competition and performance dancers should dance to wherever the audience is. If that's all on one side, then they should dance to a front. If the audience is on several sides, they should dance to those sides.

Clive Long

3rd-December-2005, 11:36 AM

Msfab

3rd-December-2005, 02:49 PM

Went to the Melbourne class on Thursday - young crowd - everyone smiling.

What question was I asked?

"What competitions have you won?"

NO

Yes, the very same question was asked by 7 out of 10 dancers. What difference does it make whether youve done any competitions? :sick:

Oh did you met Kelvin Corbett? A rather large Kiwi! He's been in competition you know!:really:

Tiggerbabe

3rd-December-2005, 03:28 PM

What difference does it make whether youve done any competitions? :sick:
None at all :wink: when the question they actually asked Clive was whether or not he knew Trampy :whistle: :blush: :hug:

pjay

3rd-December-2005, 04:33 PM

Andreas

3rd-December-2005, 04:50 PM

Yes, the very same question was asked by 7 out of 10 dancers. What difference does it make whether youve done any competitions? :sick:

Oh did you met Kelvin Corbett? A rather large Kiwi! He's been in competition you know!:really:
:rofl:

Well, as Tiggers mentioned they didn't actually ask that question. But I too have been asked numerous times re competitions. Second question was where I am from and as nobody would have believed I am from the UK or NZ I just told I am German. That usually led to the third question, which was 'they dance jibe there, too?' And I had to answer NO, which was actually funny hehe (Well, there is MJ in Germany these days, not very well developed, though.) It may have been my incredibly talkative personality that kind of killed these conversations. Need to work on that :rofl:

TheTramp

3rd-December-2005, 05:01 PM

It was, "Do you know Steve Lampert" :rofl:

Unfortunately, I had to say "No, I don't know him".

And in what way is that unfortunate!! :rofl:

Andreas

3rd-December-2005, 05:04 PM

And in what way is that unfortunate!! :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: I presume because it inserted a 'non-strategic' break in the conversation, breaking the flow. The typical 'err new topic, right, just what?' part. :D

dancefiend

4th-December-2005, 12:27 AM

Yes, the very same question was asked by 7 out of 10 dancers. What difference does it make whether youve done any competitions? :sick:

They might have thought you're a good dancer so they asked. I think asknig someone about what competitions they have done is valid, or like how often you've go dancing and how long have you been dancing for. I get these 3 questions quite alot.

Yliander

4th-December-2005, 10:50 AM

David Bailey

4th-December-2005, 10:51 AM

They might have thought you're a good dancer so they asked. I think asknig someone about what competitions they have done is valid, or like how often you've go dancing and how long have you been dancing for. I get these 3 questions quite alot.
I think this probably illustrates the different cultural approach - or, in fact, demonstrates one of the key differences of "Aussie Style".

Without (hopefully) going off on a rant, the fact that there's an inbuilt strong assumption that "competitions are what good dancers should do" in Aussie style is, I think, a definite difference to the culture in the UK, where I don't believe such a strong assumption exists.

Yliander

4th-December-2005, 10:52 AM

Yes, well, being the asker... I don't care that much what comps someone has won, but I do care about whether or not someone knows a friend :) - besides at the time, we were trying to figure out where you may have heard my name...And you knew he was there and didn't introduce him?!?!? *grrrrrrr* you are in trouble mister!

Anna

4th-December-2005, 10:59 AM

Aussie style? Aerials... lots and lots of Aerials ;)

Then again im a NZ'er so I'm biased... yes I do still resent you for taking over our 2005n champs!!! :whistle:

David Franklin

4th-December-2005, 11:10 AM

Aussie style? Aerials... lots and lots of Aerials ;)I thought David and Lily had cured them of that... :devil:

Andreas

4th-December-2005, 11:10 AM

And you knew he was there and didn't introduce him?!?!? *grrrrrrr* you are in trouble mister!
Yeah, show him! :rofl: He is a bit reckless like that, just hogging Clive all for himself :yum:

Yliander

4th-December-2005, 11:25 AM

Yeah, show him! :rofl: He is a bit reckless like that, just hogging Clive all for himself :yum:well at least he didn't hog you!

Oh and Clive you are in a little bit of yourself for not introducing yourself!!!

Andreas

4th-December-2005, 11:59 AM

well at least he didn't hog you!
I know! At the ball he came to our table, chatted up Manisa, persuaded her to abandone me for the duration of a few dances and didn't even introduce himself to me. How rude! Bl***y elitist! Clive, you will have to tell me your secret when you get back. :rofl:

Clive Long

4th-December-2005, 01:32 PM

well at least he didn't hog you!

Oh and Clive you are in a little bit of yourself for not introducing yourself!!!
This is very strange.

I met with a very nice dancer called Yliander at Melbourne and asked if she posted on the Ceroc Scotland Forum. I got a very strange look in response. Anyway, you are in Perth, no? A bit far for the Melbourne classes?

Clive

pjay

4th-December-2005, 04:10 PM

And you knew he was there and didn't introduce him?!?!? *grrrrrrr* you are in trouble mister!

Hang on a tick, I met Clive there, for the first time, and talked briefly just before he walked out the door...

pjay

4th-December-2005, 04:13 PM

I know! At the ball he came to our table, chatted up Manisa, persuaded her to abandone me for the duration of a few dances and didn't even introduce himself to me. How rude! Bl***y elitist! Clive, you will have to tell me your secret when you get back. :rofl:

Yeah, how incredibly rude to chat up Manisa and not introduce myself... obviously i'm a complete prick and you should have nothing to do with me...

but really, my apologies - I was distracted by the chance to dance with Manisa... Can you blame me?

Andreas

4th-December-2005, 04:15 PM

Yeah, how incredibly rude to chat up Manisa and not introduce myself... obviously i'm a complete prick and you should have nothing to do with me...

but really, my apologies - I was distracted by the chance to dance with Manisa... Can you blame me?

:rofl: :rofl: Nah, can't blame you. :wink:

dancefiend

5th-December-2005, 01:41 PM

I think this probably illustrates the different cultural approach - or, in fact, demonstrates one of the key differences of "Aussie Style".

Without (hopefully) going off on a rant, the fact that there's an inbuilt strong assumption that "competitions are what good dancers should do" in Aussie style is, I think, a definite difference to the culture in the UK, where I don't believe such a strong assumption exists.

But here you are making an assumption that wouldn't exist if you take the question at face value.

More precisely, it is possible for dancers who look good to have entered into competitons but then again it need not be the case. If there was an inbuilt assumption, then a statement would have been made as opposed to a question being asked - correct?

David Franklin

5th-December-2005, 02:09 PM

If there was an inbuilt assumption, then a statement would have been made as opposed to a question being asked - correct?Not to my understanding. In normal speech, I would interpret "strong assumption" to mean "I think this is likely, but not certain".

They might have thought you're a good dancer so they asked. I think asknig someone about what competitions they have done is valid, or like how often you've go dancing and how long have you been dancing for. I get these 3 questions quite alot.
It's strange, but inside UK Ceroc, competing really doesn't come up on the radar for most people. I think most people over here would find it strange to be asked about competitions. I find I am far more likely to get asked about competitions when I'm at non-Ceroc dances or muggle events.

N.B. I make no value judgements about whether competitions are a good thing.

MartinHarper

5th-December-2005, 02:56 PM

If there was an inbuilt assumption, then a statement would have been made as opposed to a question being asked - correct?

In conversation, people prefer to ask questions to which they expect a positive answer.

David Bailey

5th-December-2005, 03:38 PM

But here you are making an assumption that wouldn't exist if you take the question at face value.

More precisely, it is possible for dancers who look good to have entered into competitons but then again it need not be the case. If there was an inbuilt assumption, then a statement would have been made as opposed to a question being asked - correct?
Errr... dunno, head hurts...

Let me rephrase that:
- In the UK, it's unusualy to be asked about competitions - I certainly almost never have asked nor been asked. Maybe once a year - if that.
- In Australia, it seems much more common to be asked.

That's the difference, and I think that's a key indication of the answer to the original question that started off this thread.

pjay

5th-December-2005, 04:07 PM

All I can say about Aussie style is that it is fun.

Went to the Melbourne class on Thursday - young crowd - everyone smiling.

What question was I asked?

"What competitions have you won?"

NO

It was, "Do you know Steve Lampert" :rofl:

Unfortunately, I had to say "No, I don't know him".

Clive

I just want to check something here because it seems to me that my reading of this post is a little different from the reading that a conversation seems to be based on...

On reading Clive's post it seems to me that he expected to be asked about competitions where as all he was asked was whether or not he new the Tramp.

Just wanting to clarify a little because there seems to be talk based on this that is saying that you're likely to get asked about comps if you're in Australia, and to be honest I'd concur with the sentiment about being much more likely to be asked about competitions when talking with non-dancers, than in dancing circles.

David Franklin

5th-December-2005, 04:58 PM

I just want to check something here because it seems to me that my reading of this post is a little different from the reading that a conversation seems to be based on...You're not wrong there. I thought Clive's post was both informative and hysterically funny (sorry Steve!). The follow on discussion has been somewhat disconnected...

I would say that knowledge of Australian Ceroc (visits to Sydney, Australian dancers I've known over here, and www.cerocforum.com), I get the impression a much higher percentage of people over there are involved in competitions. But there are obvious reasons why those sources might be biased. Certainly over here it's only a very small proportion who compete.

TheTramp

5th-December-2005, 06:38 PM

Have to say that when I was in Australia, I can't actually remember being asked about what competitions I've been in at all. Maybe I was just so bad that they assumed that I've never been in any! :sick:

Oh, and David, I found it pretty funny too. So no need to apologise :cheers:

David Franklin

5th-December-2005, 07:00 PM

Oh, and David, I found it pretty funny too. So no need to apologise :cheers:Thought you might! It reminded me of this story...

Steve was bragging to his boss one day, "You know, I know everyone there is to know. Just name someone, anyone, and I know them." Tired of his boasting, his boss called his bluff, "OK, Steve how about Tom Cruise?"

"Sure, yes, Tom and I are old friends, and I can prove it." So Steve and his boss fly out to Hollywood and knock on Tom Cruise's door, and sure enough, Tom Cruise, shouts, "Steve! Great to see you! You and your friend come right in and join me for lunch!" Although impressed, Steve's boss is still skeptical. After they leave Cruise's house, he tells Steve that he thinks Steve's knowing Cruise was just lucky. "No, no, just name anyone else," Steve says.

"President Clinton," his boss quickly retorts.

"Yes," Steve says, "I know him, let's fly out to Washington." And off they go. At the White House, Clinton spots Steve on the tour and motions him and his boss over, saying, "Steve, what a surprise, I was just on my way to a meeting, but you and your friend come on in and let's have a cup of coffee first and catch up." Well, the boss is very shaken by now, but still not totally convinced. After they leave the White House grounds, he expresses his doubts to Steve, who again implores him to name anyone else.

"The Pope," his boss replies.

"Sure!" says Steve. "My folks are from Poland, and I've known the Pope a long time." So off they fly to Rome. Steve and his boss are assembled with the masses in Vatican Square when Steve says, "This will never work. I can't catch the Pope's eye among all these people. Tell you what, I know all the guards so let me just go upstairs and I'll come out on the balcony with the Pope." And he disappears into the crowd of thousands headed toward the Vatican. Sure enough, half an hour later Steve emerges with the Pope on the balcony.

But by the time Steve returns, he finds that his boss has had a heart attack and is surrounded by paramedics. Working his way to his boss' side, Steve asks him, what happened?"

His boss looks up and says, I was doing fine until you and the Pope came out on the balcony and the man next to me said, "Who's that on the balcony with Steve?"

pjay

5th-December-2005, 10:57 PM

I would say that knowledge of Australian Ceroc (visits to Sydney, Australian dancers I've known over here, and www.cerocforum.com), I get the impression a much higher percentage of people over there are involved in competitions. But there are obvious reasons why those sources might be biased. Certainly over here it's only a very small proportion who compete.

You may be right about that - it is quite possible either way, I don't really feel that I can comment on it, but I certainly know there is encouragement given to compete, and maybe there are some cultural differences that lead more Australian (and those living here) to get excited about competing at things, or maybe it's just a small sample size that gives the impression, I certainly don't know.

I do know that there is recognition given to people for competition victory, and I do think that that is quite reasonable to do, but people do get recognition for non-comp stuff too - it's perhaps just not a quick recognition because it doesn't tend to get heard about as quickly or by as many people.

I know of a person recently who was told by someone who is quite new to the competition/performance scene "I love watching you dance, it's amazing - it's not competition stuff, but it is beautiful" (but then that could just be an isolated incident).

dancefiend

6th-December-2005, 10:27 AM

It's strange, but inside UK Ceroc, competing really doesn't come up on the radar for most people. I think most people over here would find it strange to be asked about competitions. I find I am far more likely to get asked about competitions when I'm at non-Ceroc dances or muggle events.

In sydney, there's very little inhibition when it comes to dancing. Even at non ceroc clubs, when the musc comes on cerocers are first to be on the floor.

Most of my dancing friends are happy to dance in front of a small crowd, large crowd or no crowd at all. I know it doesn't faze me one way or the other. To me competition is just another opportunity to dance. I don't treat it as anything special.

Nessa

15th-December-2005, 12:06 PM

Oh dear it's been a while sice I looked over this thread hasn't it!!

:mad:
- most of the Aussie leads I have danced with take a little getting used to, then they are fine - maybe it is you and not the lead that is giving you that impression :whistle:
I have this terrible feeling that my earlier comment was misinterpreted there!

I was trying to make the point that you can dance with 7 out of 10 Ceroccers in any venue, anywhere in the world, and that their level and style and choice of moves will not meet with your level and style and choice of moves.
Those of us who dance at a venue/in a country regularly know the people whom they like dancing with, and tend to dance with them. I expect you are much the same Minnie!
Then when we are out of our comfort zone and don't know who we would enjoy dancing with, we have a 70% chance of having a less than fantastic dance.

With regards the bouncing, I brought that up not only because I had bad experiences when dancing in UK with unknown dancers, but also an experience I had in Oz. One guy I hadn't danced with for ages, who had been one of my favourite partners as a beginner, turned up at my venue one night and I snaffled him for a dance. Well at the very first move he bounced so energetically I really hurt my elbow (twice broken, twice repaired, riddled with steel pins) and wouldn't go near him with a barge pole any more. Same dancer, same style - but a year of development in my style that led to the difference in my interpretation of what was "good" or "comfortable"

So I guess your comment above was perfectly valid - it was almost certainly my interpretation of the lead that made it seem dangerously bouncy. (And as I somehow missed dancing with you in Glasgow in October I guess we can't make any personal assessments.)

Or of course you could go back and READ my original post (http://72.232.2.194/~fpauly/forum/showpost.php?p=168965&postcount=63)and think about the bit that says "the following post does in no way reflect the views of the poster".... :what:

"Some seemingly irrelevant quote from Ceroc Jock"

MartinHarper

15th-December-2005, 05:49 PM

Same dancer, same style - but a year of development in my style that led to the difference in my interpretation of what was "good" or "comfortable"

I don't see how becoming more stylish can make one more prone to an injured elbow.

Gadget

15th-December-2005, 08:51 PM

More sensative - less resistance in the connection; expecting to feel the lead and react to it rather than have the lead given to you with no room for deviance.
I "tighten up" my lead and become a bit more domineering when dancing with novices if I find that their connection is quite strong and they are moving about too much. I lead bigger and clearer for novices that have a really weak connection: If I danced with experanced ladies (who could follow with just the feeling of fingertips) like this, I would probably cause some harm. :what:

Nessa

15th-December-2005, 09:37 PM

I don't see how becoming more stylish can make one more prone to an injured elbow.
Yeah... wot Gadget said.:grin:

And I've seen quite a few advanced dancers on this Forum complain that such and such a beginner has hurt them...whereas quite often other beginners accept this lead/response as fairly normal, due to a more limited experience, and protect against injury automatically by being less sensitive. Dancewise :what: .

Yliander

16th-December-2005, 02:08 PM

This is very strange.

I met with a very nice dancer called Yliander at Melbourne and asked if she posted on the Ceroc Scotland Forum. I got a very strange look in response. Anyway, you are in Perth, no? A bit far for the Melbourne classes?

Cliveoooo someone hijacking my name!!!! how dare they!!!!

Actually I moved to Melbourne in August so Melbourne classes are now only an hours drive from my front door.

Thetruth

15th-August-2007, 12:58 AM

1)Ok so staying with the Sydney style. Precise is an understatement. I was watching some of the earlier rounds at the champs, the beginners and intermediates. My jaw dropped when I saw the moves the intermediates were doing, our advanced dancers would struggle with many of them.
However I want to be as diplomatic as possible. I saw move followed by move followed by move. The "music Interpretation" was word related, ie they would try and mimic the words of the songs, not the feelings envoked by the songs. Musicality is pushed into second place to making sure you got the big ones in.

2)One thing that hits you immediatly in Sydney and Auckland are the Ballroom style facial expressions they all have. The big fixed grins that very rarley again have anything to do with the passion that is going on in the music.

3)OK I am not knocking their style. If that is what Ceroc is there then they are very good at it, very good indeed. In the UK, maybe because it has been around longer, maybe because here we have much more exposure to exogenous factors Ceroc evolves faster and we have gone closer to saying I cant be bothered to learn big moves that I have to work out for and practice 10 hours a day to a lazier more laid back approach. I think the music is also a very strong factor here.

4)The Ozzies have had Trampy and a few other Local dancers bring new music styles into OZ. Also with people like Clayton and Janine returning to OZ and Vicktor threatening to shift there, it will not take to long for them to dramaticaly influence the styles.

Adam

1)All too often musicality is sacrificed for big aerial moves.

2)Totally agree with this comment. It would seem smiling and presenting to the audience is more important than connecting with your partner or telling a story. Connection between partners is rarely established. However, some are great at connecting with the audience.

3)Not sure I agree here.............not everybody is into aerials or big moves. Some of the easy moves can look just as good as the big moves. In Latin american competitions aerials are not allowed at any level.

4)I love the cabaret style of Clayton and Janine and there presentation. Had the pleasure of seeing them perform in Oz a few years ago. Vicktor moving to Oz would be awesome and his style would undoubtly influence many Aussie dancers as he did mine.