View Full Version : when no means no
DianaS
5th-November-2005, 03:50 PM
After having my head banged during a drop last Saturday I refused the next drop the guy offered. He complained saying there was space:mad:
and I pointed out reasonably that it the split second that he looks and sends me down another person can be sent into the same space.
He then remonstrated that he was keeping an eye and I would be safe so I said humourously "if you want to do drops thats fine, I'll drop you" he didn't take me up on the offer but smiled the point was made and we had a fine enough dance.
Somewhat later a chap I was dancing with signalled an arial which I refused. He complained about this despite the fullnesss of the floor and so for the first time in my dancing career I walked off the floor and didn't complete the dance.
I have had two whiplash injuries due to martial arts injuries and have worn a neck collar for up to two months taking painkillers. no one should be expected to know this but if I say no then I mean it, and if another lady says no then don't complain. It's rude.
Yes the second guy was a forumite I hope that you read this and change your attitude. If you have the courage to post your own point of view it may encourage healthy debate over the issues.
My point of view is that no body has the right to put other people at risk or to complain when the person politely refuses the risk. However perhaps you have a different perspective that will give me more understanding. But please don't PM me, I feel public discussion is appropriate and don't want at this stage want to engage in with you personally
I am angry, and I also feel quite hurt over the episode. I don't know why but somehow the idea of mutaul consent seemed to be missing in two people I danced with last night. It felt quite unpleasant
Gus
5th-November-2005, 04:04 PM
but if I say no then I mean it, and if another lady says no then don't complain. It's rude.Yeeeahhhhh .... another old favourite topic comes round again. Can't find the links but this debate comes up on a regular basis. I think the conclusion was that anyone doing aerials or drops without consent should be battered with a large, wet haddock! You provide the club and the dancer's details and we'll send round the Enforcer with the Fish.
Heather
5th-November-2005, 04:42 PM
After having my head banged during a drop last Saturday I refused the next drop the guy offered. He complained saying there was space:mad:
and I pointed out reasonably that it the split second that he looks and sends me down another person can be sent into the same space.
He then remonstrated that he was keeping an eye and I would be safe so I said humourously "if you want to do drops thats fine, I'll drop you" he didn't take me up on the offer but smiled the point was made and we had a fine enough dance.
Somewhat later a chap I was dancing with signalled an arial which I refused. He complained about this despite the fullnesss of the floor and so for the first time in my dancing career I walked off the floor and didn't complete the dance.
I have had two whiplash injuries due to martial arts injuries and have worn a neck collar for up to two months taking painkillers. no one should be expected to know this but if I say no then I mean it, and if another lady says no then don't complain. It's rude.
Yes the second guy was a forumite I hope that you read this and change your attitude. If you have the courage to post your own point of view it may encourage healthy debate over the issues.
My point of view is that no body has the right to put other people at risk or to complain when the person politely refuses the risk. However perhaps you have a different perspective that will give me more understanding. But please don't PM me, I feel public discussion is appropriate and don't want at this stage want to engage in with you personally
I am angry, and I also feel quite hurt over the episode. I don't know why but somehow the idea of mutaul consent seemed to be missing in two people I danced with last night. It felt quite unpleasant
:worthy: :worthy: :yeah: :worthy: :worthy:
GOOD FOR YOU !!!!
NO-ONE has the right to make you do anything you want to do ON or OFF the dance floor!!
I have had similar experiences in the past, notably down in London in Chiswick, just before the champs a few years ago.
I noticed this guy dancing , obviously thinking he was God's gift to dancing, every woman he danced with was thrown into a drop or seducer of some description.Eventually I was asked for a dance and eventually he tried to put me into a drop! I told him in NO uncertain terms that I did not do drops with people I did not know but he persisted and tried again!!
At that, I stopped dancing altogether, asked him was he deaf or what part of NO did he not understand, and promptly walked off the dancefloor .
All this in full view of Scot, a dance teacher from Scotland, and your very own Viktor. When Scot later asked what was wrong, I explained and was told 'Good for you'. Apparently Viktor knew the guy to be in the habit of this throwing his partner about ( and he was a teacher, to boot!)
So I say 'Good on Ya Girl!!!'
:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
xx
wicked blue
5th-November-2005, 07:03 PM
After having my head banged during a drop last Saturday I refused the next drop the guy offered. He complained saying there was space:mad:
Somewhat later a chap I was dancing with signalled an arial which I refused. He complained about this despite the fullnesss of the floor and so for the first time in my dancing career I walked off the floor and didn't complete the dance.
Good on ya for doing the walking thing, Diana! :clap: This whole issue about drops and aerials on the dancefloor when it is crowded is a serious one! Guys just don't seem to think about the consequences - only the other night a guy whirled me into a drop, i actually ended up with my head between the couple dancing next to us! :eek: Fortunately i was lucky on that occasion, but its just not worth it - and no bloke has the right to tell you otherwise! I know other friends that have also done the walking thing - sometimes its the only way to get these guilty parties to understand 'no'!!
Speaking of crowded dance floors, i have to say that Fulham is often extremely busy, and it always surprises me the amount of guys that don't seem to have any kind of awareness of this when dancing. I have lost count the number of times that i have been spun into others on the dancefloor. :mad: Somewhat ruins the dance!
Yet other guys have got it spot on for ensuring the womans safety!:worthy:
Lynn
5th-November-2005, 07:08 PM
Dancing shouldn't turn into a battle of wills. Sometimes walking away is the only option to avoid this.
Yet other guys have got it spot on for ensuring the womans safety!:worthy: :yeah:
For those guys who do - :hug: . It not only makes dancing on a crowded floor more enjoyable from a safety point of view but its also an indication that the lead is concerned about your enjoyment of the dance, which is always nice.:flower:
MartinHarper
5th-November-2005, 07:17 PM
After having my head banged during a drop last Saturday I refused the next drop the guy offered. [...] Somewhat later a chap I was dancing with signalled an arial which I refused.
Just out of interest, was this a verbal offer and a verbal refusal? Or, did these guys lead/signal the drop/aerial, and you refused to follow?
obviously thinking he was God's gift to dancing, every woman he danced with was thrown into a drop or seducer of some description.
In the anonymous guy's defence, behaviour like this isn't always simply arrogance. For many of them, it's just the way they've been taught: intermediate routines consisting of three moves and a drop, no talk about consent from the stage, and a local culture where most dances are ended with a drop of some kind.
Lucy Locket
5th-November-2005, 07:30 PM
Just out of interest, was this a verbal offer and a verbal refusal? Or, did these guys lead/signal the drop/aerial, and you refused to follow?
Excuse me but does it matter?? This forumite (i was there) had a strop & knowing him he simply moved on to his next victim. He should be named & shamed so other lady's are forewarned & he should apologise publicly to DianaS. He knows who he is!!
If a man dances with a lady he's never danced with before he should ask at the beginning if she is ok with drops & aerials & back bends. For whatever reason a lady has the right to say no & no matter what his abilities he should respect her wish. No excuses & certainly no strops.
I recently had a back injury & said to the leads at the beginning of the dance what I couldn't do & with all due respect they were careful with their moves. Unfortunately there's always one or two who aren't gentlemen.
Good on you DianaS
:clap: :clap: :clap:
DianaS
5th-November-2005, 08:03 PM
Just out of interest, was this a verbal offer and a verbal refusal? Or, did these guys lead/signal the drop/aerial, and you refused to follow?
.
hi there Martin,
Sorry if it's not clear I'll explain the context a little more...
The first guy led a drop and when I had my head banged he apologised. It wasn't an issue it happens but when he led another drop I refused by not going for it and saying "no more drops" he then stopped dancing and remonstrated saying that he had checked the space and it was clear. I then explained that even if was clear the moment he checked when I was dropped someone could move into it. It was in the middle of the floor so there was no control over where other couples danced. But basically I hadn't danced with the guy before and didn't feel that I wanted to trust him again. He only continued the dance when I offered to do drops with him if it was drops that he was interested in. He gave me a wry smile and continued...
The second guy signalled to lead an ariel and I shook my head and said no staying well back. He then said "oh, why not?!" and I felt him start to make a scene so I replied "if thats how you feel" and walked away..
It was embarrassing, but I felt outraged that any one would dare try and put me under pressure. I still can't believe it, so perhaps there is another side that I should listen to
I'm waiting.
DianaS
5th-November-2005, 08:08 PM
In the anonymous guy's defence, behaviour like this isn't always simply arrogance. For many of them, it's just the way they've been taught: intermediate routines consisting of three moves and a drop, no talk about consent from the stage, and a local culture where most dances are ended with a drop of some kind.
You may have a point here Martin, I hadn't considered that angle. It was at a totally different venue Bedford, in an area that I haven't danced in before so there may be an issue with the teaching.
I have noticed that different areas have different moves, cultures and customs.
:flower:
David Bailey
5th-November-2005, 08:38 PM
Excuse me but does it matter?? This forumite (i was there) had a strop & knowing him he simply moved on to his next victim. He should be named & shamed so other lady's are forewarned & he should apologise publicly to DianaS. He knows who he is!!
I've just spent a minute frantically trying to remember when I last danced with DianaS - OK, it's not me, by all means n&s him :whew:
Seriously, DianaS, good on you for your actions, you did exactly the right thing. Injuries are only too common, and I've seen some really horrendous ones even over the past year, to A-list dancers - you really can't be too careful.
Unfortunately, it seems the leaders who do the most damage are the ones with enough experience (at least in their mind) to do these moves, but not enough experience to realise how bloody dangerous they can be.
And yes, we've discussed this many times even in the short time I've been on the forum, but so what - it's always worth repeating; Take Care Of Your Partner.
One tip: leaders, if you do drop a lady, make sure your hand is at the back of her head for support - so an impact occurs, it's with your hand first, rather than her cranium.
(Plus, of course, that allows extra hair-pullage :drool: - ahem)
Tiggerbabe
5th-November-2005, 08:52 PM
(Plus, of course, that allows extra hair-pullage :drool: - ahem)
You tarting for negative rep too now Mr J? :whistle:
Lucy Locket
5th-November-2005, 09:07 PM
You may have a point here Martin, I hadn't considered that angle. It was at a totally different venue Bedford, in an area that I haven't danced in before so there may be an issue with the teaching.
I have noticed that different areas have different moves, cultures and customs.
:flower:
I know this guy & he's been taught dance ettiquette (i've been to the same classes in the past). I avoid him like the plague & I don't mind admitting it. Worst of all he'll dance the same with a beginner. Does someone have to get hurt before it gets through.
ASK PERMISSION FIRST
:clap:
David Bailey
5th-November-2005, 09:10 PM
You tarting for negative rep too now Mr J? :whistle:
Interesting idea...
As I've said many times, I only do that on request. Generally repeated request at that, as I keep on forgetting it, silly me. References available on, err, request... :whistle:
Heather
5th-November-2005, 09:18 PM
In the anonymous guy's defence, behaviour like this isn't always simply arrogance. For many of them, it's just the way they've been taught: intermediate routines consisting of three moves and a drop, no talk about consent from the stage, and a local culture where most dances are ended with a drop of some kind.
Am I missing something here? Since when have Ceroc teachers been taught that's its OK to incorporate drops ad nauseam into their dancing with unknown partners?
I am led to believe that drops are 'red' moves or is that just a myth?
This guy, I was told at the time, was a Ceroc teacher.
He didn't know me,I may have had a back or some other injury.
As it was I made a judgement call from observing his many 'near misses' with other partners. I did not want to put myself under any uneccessary risk.
And who cares if that's local culture or not , as far as I'm concerned, NO means NO.
If it was part of local culture to blow smoke in someone's face would that be acceptable too ? ( Comments from Mr McGregor please:whistle: 0
The Vikings local culture was to rape and pillage , did that make it acceptable?
That's a bit extreme but, the point is NO-ONE has the right to make you do anything you don't want to. Up here in Scotland, it has always been part of our dancing culture to ASK if a person is up for drops and seducers. Luckily, our dancing community is small enough that we generally know when we are in safe hands or not.
Yes we have serial droppers, airmovers up here too, but anyone with any sense either avoids them or puts them straight. And they are certainly NEVER taught by any Ceroc teacher up here that it's OK to do them!!:angry:
Diana, you did the right thing in walking off the floor!
:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
xx
Wouter
5th-November-2005, 09:29 PM
A drop can be dangerous in many ways
- risk of injury to your partner
- space on the dance floor: some people move out of their slot - so drops are OUT on a crowded dance floor
- a lady should NEVER do a move she is not comfortable with
- a leader should never take a No as an offence
Lynn
5th-November-2005, 09:38 PM
Up here in Scotland, it has always been part of our dancing culture to ASK if a person is up for drops and seducers. That's interesting, as I find I am rarely actually asked about drops and seducers, but I was asked when over at the BFG when dancing with a stranger. So its clearly effective!
Gadget
5th-November-2005, 11:36 PM
The second guy signalled to lead an ariel and I shook my head and said no staying well back. He then said "oh, why not?!" and I felt him start to make a scene so I replied "if thats how you feel" and walked away..
{my emphasis} So, you have no idea if he was asking you "Why Not?" out of concern for you? You didn't bother with a civilised reply, just assumed that he would strop and decided to strop out first?
Have you done this move with him before?
Mary
6th-November-2005, 12:04 AM
Whilst I think small dips can be executed perfectly safely on a crowded dancefloor and I don't think checking with a partner first is entirely necessary as they require the same balance and technique on the ladies part as any other basic move. Drops and laybacks on the other hand are a different matter. Not all teachers go through safety chat, and courtesy issues, but maybe there is also a certain onus on the lady to mention before a dance if she has an injury or is not happy about deep drops or back-bending.
I agree there are some extremely 'flashy', arrogant leads out there - this does not mean to say they are good leads, but I don't think we should entirely put the blame on the guy. I am not defending these perpetrators but maybe the ladies should take a certain responsibility by forewarning of old injuries, phobias etc.
If I have a sore arm, foot, leg or whatever and I am asked for a dance I say something along the lines of 'I would love a dance, but you'll have to be gentle with me as I have a sore/tender whatever'. I find the lead then is always very accommodating and kind, if maybe a little frustrated at times.
There are a couple of drop-happy a**holes out there, but c'mon girls, let's be fair to the guys and give some warning if certain things may be a problem.:flower:
M
MartinHarper
6th-November-2005, 04:18 AM
Excuse me but does it matter??
Not really. I was curious. Sometimes a question is just a question.
Sorry if it's not clear I'll explain the context a little more...
(snip)
The first guy led a drop and when I had my head banged he apologised. It wasn't an issue it happens but when he led another drop I refused by not going for it and saying "no more drops"
(snip)
The second guy signalled to lead an ariel and I shook my head and said no staying well back.
Thanks Diana.
It's interesting (to me, at least) that what annoyed you wasn't that these guys hadn't asked prior permission, but how badly they handled it when you didn't do what they'd lead/signalled, out of self-preservation.
It's also good to read a woman saying that she was able (in these cases, anyway) to abort a move that she's not comfortable doing.
Since when have Ceroc teachers been taught that's its OK to incorporate drops ad nauseam into their dancing with unknown partners?
If you quickly re-read my post, you'll notice that I didn't say that they did.
Who cares if that's local culture or not, as far as I'm concerned, NO means NO.
I completely agree. Some things are different in different cultures, such as whether to ask permission in advance. Other things are the same, and "NO means NO" is one of them.
'I would love a dance, but you'll have to be gentle with me as I have a sore/tender whatever'.
I always find it very helpful when my partner notifies me of such injuries before the dance starts.
Nessa
6th-November-2005, 09:09 AM
*snip* I noticed this guy dancing , obviously thinking he was God's gift to dancing, every woman he danced with was thrown into a drop or seducer of some description. */snip*
This was an interesting contrast I noticed after my recent tour of the UK - that while the dancers in the UK (specifically Scotland cause that's where I did most of my dancing) do lead small dips and leans, there is a general absence of big dips, seducers and drops.
Oddly enough this didn't really come strongly to my attention until the BFG, when I got a couple of the bigger dips, and then when I got home to Sydney and noticed that EVERY DANCE contained 3 close encounters with the ground.
Considering I'd only had a 2 month break from what used to be my usual dance culture, and the weirdness I felt at being thrown around like this, I can just imagine how someone who has NEVER been exposed to this style of Ceroc would feel on encountering leads who EXPECT to be able to do drops at... ahem... the drop of a hat.
But Heather - and all - on the flip side, these guys really are used to expecting to dip and drop. It's not (always) just showing off. And it's not that they aren't taught to ask first.... but there is a bit of a social expectation that for the girls to improve past a certain level you really need to be willing to do these moves.
Just for my tuppence worth, the two months I spent with you guys were the most pain-free my poor neck has had in over a year, and I personally loved the less dramatic but more... um..... stylish (?) style of Ceroc that was led at me!
It also gave me more of a reason to continue trying to develop my dancing, in the knowledge that I CAN still improve and be relatively partnerable without being keen on doing the splits or handstands midair....
David Bailey
6th-November-2005, 10:33 AM
But Heather - and all - on the flip side, these guys really are used to expecting to dip and drop. It's not (always) just showing off. And it's not that they aren't taught to ask first.... but there is a bit of a social expectation that for the girls to improve past a certain level you really need to be willing to do these moves.
:what: :mad: I'm sorry, but that's just dumb.
Improvement isn't about moves, it's about style.
OK, maybe it's because we're a slightly older crowd than the dancers down under that we get concerned about injuries (although I suspect Anna is living refutation of that), but that "you've to to jump around to be good" mentality just gets on my nerves... grrr,
Just for my tuppence worth, the two months I spent with you guys were the most pain-free my poor neck has had in over a year, and I personally loved the less dramatic but more... um..... stylish (?) style of Ceroc that was led at me!
It also gave me more of a reason to continue trying to develop my dancing, in the knowledge that I CAN still improve and be relatively partnerable without being keen on doing the splits or handstands midair....
:clap: good for you!
I also suspect Adam in NZ won't be teaching too many lifts / drops as "must-do" style, and who knows, his recent win in the competition in Australia may help change the culture there.
Minnie M
6th-November-2005, 10:35 AM
.... a lady should NEVER do a move she is not comfortable with......
:yeah:
I am a little confused here - I often have smart alec blokes who reckon they can do drops and especially those 'back breaking thingies over their knees' with me and without warning ...........
Most and it is most drops have some kind of signal, or you can tell my the lead what they are about to do - just stop ! yes stop dancing and say "I don't do drops" - it does work, and often makes them feel stupid
Yes, I agree they should ask first and in the class they are taught this should be emphasised - but if you see one come, be assertive and say NO !!! We are women are NOT mice (well some of us maybe :whistle: )
DianaS
6th-November-2005, 11:00 AM
{my emphasis} So, you have no idea if he was asking you "Why Not?" out of concern for you? You didn't bother with a civilised reply, just assumed that he would strop and decided to strop out first?
Have you done this move with him before?
Thanks for raising this a Gadget its one of the reasons that I posted it up cas there are always two sides to things and its useful to have another side presented to you.
I used the word "felt" advisadly because this is how I interpreted his raised voice, facial expression and body language. However just as he didn't know the context to my refusal (therefore its here for him to read) I don't know the context for his raised voice and body language.
I felt he was making a scene however his intentions could be entirely different:-
Gosh, whats happened to you? I feel angry too
Don't you feel safe with me, I haven't done any thing!
Or god I'm having a crap night this is the last straw, the dogs just died and I can't even get a good dance!
I actually don't know the guy, I danced with him once around a year ago so the rest is up to him
CeeCee
6th-November-2005, 12:33 PM
originally posted by DianaS
After having my head banged during a drop last Saturday I refused the next drop the guy offered. He complained saying there was space
and I pointed out reasonably that it the split second that he looks and sends me down another person can be sent into the same space.
He then remonstrated that he was keeping an eye and I would be safe…
You have my sympathy as the whole experience sounds dreadful.
I am however, surprised that the two of you had time during your dance to refuse, complain, point out and remonstrate.
If dancing is a conversation yours was quite an unpleasant one.
Why waste time having this interraction?
originally posted by DianaS
I am angry, and I also feel quite hurt over the episode. I don't know why but somehow the idea of mutaul consent seemed to be missing in two people I danced with last night. It felt quite unpleasant
It is a real shame that you met two thoughtless dancers in the same night, that's life, some people are thoughtless, some are not.
There is no reason why we shouldn't expect a modicum of respect, care and consideration from our dance partners.
Is it too much to for us to ask or just too much for some to give?
djtrev
6th-November-2005, 01:51 PM
At one of our recent class nights during freestyle a guy who has been dancing for a fair while was dancing with an absolute beginner(I think it was her first night) and he was throwing the poor girl around like a rag doll.He was going thro practically his whole repertoire of moves;she didnt know whether she was on this earth or Fullers.I was feeling really sorry for the poor girl when suddenly he put her into a drop-well that was the final straw.Fortunately it was at the end of the track so I announced over the mic that it was important that leads always ask their partners if they wish to do drops.
Thats the first time I have felt the need to remind people of their need for safety and comfort of their partner.
Lucy Locket
6th-November-2005, 02:17 PM
I once witnessed a beginner, it was her first/second time there, being put into an intermediate move she clearly had no idea about & heard her cry out in pain. The man involved knew she was a newbie, which made it worse.
I also know of another man who loves pretty young beginners & he will do a drop or something sleazy on their first night. Sick!
The person involved needs to say something so that action can be taken but unfortunatley it's the beginners & new lady's who 'experience' this & they aren't going to say anything.
I have (when i took the refresher class) made a point of saying to the ladies if a man does a drop or move he shouldn't & they feel uncomfortable to tell me & I would do something about it. Unfortunately I don't think many teachers etc. make it clear enough that newbies are to be treated gently & they have the right to complain & so do us oldies.
:clap:
DianaS
6th-November-2005, 02:20 PM
You have my sympathy as the whole experience sounds dreadful.
I am however, surprised that the two of you had time during your dance to refuse, complain, point out and remonstrate.
If dancing is a conversation yours was quite an unpleasant one.
Why waste time having this interraction?
Hi Cee Cee
I must admit I thought that too which is why the second time around I just left.
robd
6th-November-2005, 02:41 PM
I think the majority experience (at least where I have danced) is that leaders have an expectation that followers will do drops unless explicitly informed otherwise. I base this on the fact that, following my reading of earlier threads on this topic, my personal approach is to try and ask whether a follower is comfortable doing drops before I actually attempt one. The response is often one of surprise that I have bothered to ask permission (but usually pleasant surprise) which indicates to me that most other leaders aren't bothering to ask. I regret to say that for a variety of reasons I sometimes forget to ask a person with whom I have not danced before if she is comfortable doing drops but I wouldn't ever demand an explanation if the follower didn't follow the dip, seducer, whatever. I would just apologise for not having the courtesy to ask beforehand and continue dancing a repertoire without LDS. I suppose I should note that my limited repertoire isn't exactly overflowing with drops and dips anyway unlike the styles of some leaders I see familiarly so it's not too much of a problem for me to curtail them whereas if your style is based on big drops you're pretty stuffed if the follower doesn't want to do it.
I suppose there is a grey area of sorts in the fact that a leader may have seen someone he hasn't danced with before doing LDS with a.n.other and make the assumption from that observation that the follower will have no qualms about doing the same moves with him. I feel this is a dangerous assumption - my partner is willing (I am not sure about happy :whistle: ) to do a half moon with me but I think she would be horrified if another lead tried it on her.
Robert
ducasi
6th-November-2005, 02:53 PM
I have little sympathy for your first partner, and as for the second guy, I wasn't there, so perhaps he was about to make a scene to try to embarrass you into doing the moves he wanted you to do. Then I don't blame you at all for walking away and leaving him.
But is it fair to say that if you hadn't experienced the first dancer, you might have given the second one more of a chance? If so, and assuming the second dancer didn't know what happened to you earlier, do you think you might have caught him a bit by surprise?
I've never tried a drop or an aerial move during a social dance, so I've never faced a refusal, but when I ask someone that I think I know fairly well to dance, and I get a refusal, I'll usually ask "why not?" – I'm not trying to make a scene, just wondering if there are any factors I should be aware of that would allow me to ask later, or to allow me to feel better about being refused.
I'm not disagreeing with your point that "no" means "no", but sometimes an explanation is helpful. :flower:
Gus
6th-November-2005, 09:57 PM
I think the majority experience (at least where I have danced) is that leaders have an expectation that followers will do drops unless explicitly informed otherwise. That is one of the most disturbing statements I have ever read on this Forum. Lets go back to basics.
The majority of dancers do drops wrong
Few dancers have taught drops properly by a competent teacher
Given the age/fitness profile of MJ dancers, a fair percentage have joint/back problems
...and a fair few guys have an unrealistic opinion of their own strength, reactions and technique
The vast MINORITY of music and dancefloors cry out for a drop
OK ... think my view point is clear:angry: Drops are NOT part of the central Ceroc teachers moves, they are all 'caution' or red moves (though I may be out of date on this). If they are taught, they should be taught with an alternative SO guys, if you want to do a drop with your partner you should always offer you an alternative.
The sad reality is that far too many Ceroc (and Blitz) teachers teach drops ... because it makes them look good. It ammetrs not what safety points you give, the punters will ignore most of it anyway, men and women.
Ages ago Peter Phillips produced a list of Dos and Dont about drops ... if you want to do drops, read this pamphlet and then OBEY THE RULES.
Seriously, I was talking to a lad at a freestyle last night ... the time IS coming when we need the dance police with a yellow and red card ... either that or we take the offending herberts outside and slam them into a drop and see how they like it :mad:
Heather
6th-November-2005, 11:40 PM
That is one of the most disturbing statements I have ever read on this Forum. Lets go back to basics.
The majority of dancers do drops wrong
Few dancers have taught drops properly by a competent teacher
Given the age/fitness profile of MJ dancers, a fair percentage have joint/back problems
...and a fair few guys have an unrealistic opinion of their own strength, reactions and technique
The vast MINORITY of music and dancefloors cry out for a drop
OK ... think my view point is clear:angry: Drops are NOT part of the central Ceroc teachers moves, they are all 'caution' or red moves (though I may be out of date on this). If they are taught, they should be taught with an alternative SO guys, if you want to do a drop with your partner you should always offer you an alternative.
The sad reality is that far too many Ceroc (and Blitz) teachers teach drops ... because it makes them look good. It ammetrs not what safety points you give, the punters will ignore most of it anyway, men and women.
Ages ago Peter Phillips produced a list of Dos and Dont about drops ... if you want to do drops, read this pamphlet and then OBEY THE RULES.
Seriously, I was talking to a lad at a freestyle last night ... the time IS coming when we need the dance police with a yellow and red card ... either that or we take the offending herberts outside and slam them into a drop and see how they like it :mad:
:worthy: :worthy: :yeah: :yeah:
Thank You Gus!! It was only after a 'Safe drops ' workshop that you and Helen did in Glasgow, many moons ago that gave me the courage to say NO !!
:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
xx
Kev F
7th-November-2005, 06:51 AM
After having my head banged during a drop last Saturday I refused the next drop the guy offered. He complained saying there was space:mad:
You are a woman I truly admire :worthy:
We are all social dancers who enjoy our dancing with a passion and anything that impairs that enjoyment should be eliminated as far as possible...either that or venues will need to start issuing crash helmets at the door. :flower:
TiggsTours
7th-November-2005, 10:15 AM
Well done Diana, for doing the right thing! Although, perhaps you should have stayed on the floor to explain just exactly why you wouldn't do aerials on a crowded dance floor, perhaps ask where he learnt aerials, and whether or not the people who taught him explained the dangers of doing such moves on a crowded floor. If they didn't, they shouldn't be teaching them!
I have personally had whiplash & concussion from being dropped when there is no space, and I've seen someone knocked out cold from dancing next to a couple doing aerials (its not just the couple doing the aerials who are at risk), and someone with a dislocated shoulder from drops! These can be really dangerous moves, when not performed with due care, and guys who insist on leading them against the girls wishes, or in the wrong locations, need to be told, as do the girls who agree to follow them! As for drops, the guys know nothing about the girls medical state, maybe she has a bad back? Is recovering from an operation? Just doesn't like them?! If a girl says no, that should be respected, in any area of life!
Last week, when I was taxiing, I was dancing with a guy who'd done about 6 classes in Australia, then moved over here. I told him to just try what he knows, and he tried leading me into a drop. I explained that drops aren't taught to beginners here, that maybe he needs to learn the basics before trying something more adventurous, and that the lead he was giving was unidentifiable from the basket, so girls over here wouldn't follow it anyway (I was trying to use a nice way to say that his lead was too weak for a drop, and there was no support for the girl anyway), and he kept insisting on trying to teach me the move! I can see that in a years time, he will be exactly the kind of guy we're taking about here!
jivecat
7th-November-2005, 10:39 AM
Last week, when I was taxiing, I was dancing with a guy who'd done about 6 classes in Australia, then moved over here. I told him to just try what he knows, and he tried leading me into a drop. I explained that drops aren't taught to beginners here, that maybe he needs to learn the basics before trying something more adventurous, and that the lead he was giving was unidentifiable from the basket, so girls over here wouldn't follow it anyway (I was trying to use a nice way to say that his lead was too weak for a drop, and there was no support for the girl anyway), and he kept insisting on trying to teach me the move! I can see that in a years time, he will be exactly the kind of guy we're taking about here!
This is a classic scenario. I've frequently been "taught" the drop, often by people with lots more than 6 weeks experience but who still can't lead them accurately and smoothly. I accept I might be a bit slow on the uptake where complex moves are concerned but the rule should be, if the lady isn't following it you shouldn't be leading it.
DianaS
7th-November-2005, 10:42 AM
I have personally had whiplash & concussion from being dropped when there is no space, and I've seen someone knocked out cold from dancing next to a couple doing aerials (its not just the couple doing the aerials who are at risk), and someone with a dislocated shoulder from drops! These can be really dangerous moves, when not performed with due care, and guys who insist on leading them against the girls wishes, or in the wrong locations, need to be told, as do the girls who agree to follow them! As for drops, the guys know nothing about the girls medical state, maybe she has a bad back? Is recovering from an operation? Just doesn't like them?! If a girl says no, that should be respected, in any area of life!
Absolutely When you have a whiplash its because the head is thrown backswards quickly, the first time it was due to the force of impact of one of my blows on a compantant (we were doing full contact he was a black belt wearing body armour) it was excruitating. For months and I stopped training as it was explained that because my neck is long and slender its more succeptible to this kind of injury.
I really enjoy my sport though so four years later I was in a fight and had a direct blow again to the head. The neck is like a hose pipe once it has a kink in it it will kink again and again in the same place. Again I was in agony and I promised myself I wouldn't fight again. Too great a risk too much to lose.
I haven't carry on with martial arts (and this is my first love) but do carry on with dancing..
However, any blow to my head risks another whiplash and also osteo-arthritus. It needn't be a high velocity impact just an awkward one. You'll find I usually dance on the side of the room and avoid the crowded areas. I don't however expect to have to explain why I don't want to do drops with a guy or why I choose not to do an arial. It's good manners to accept a person's preferences without entering into unnecessary debate.
and I'm here to dance, and try to give as much pleasure as I receive.
After reading this through and reflecting on the number of guys that this isn't an issue for, I'm starting to think that any one who insists or remonstrates is a total b!stard.
Diana
stewart38
7th-November-2005, 11:12 AM
At one of our recent class nights during freestyle a guy who has been dancing for a fair while was dancing with an absolute beginner(I think it was her first night) and he was throwing the poor girl around like a rag doll.He was going thro practically his whole repertoire of moves;she didnt know whether she was on this earth or Fullers.I was feeling really sorry for the poor girl when suddenly he put her into a drop-well that was the final straw.Fortunately it was at the end of the track so I announced over the mic that it was important that leads always ask their partners if they wish to do drops.
Thats the first time I have felt the need to remind people of their need for safety and comfort of their partner.
this happen with a beginner I took to Fulham and a Taxi dancer there that still teaches
Its a pity really as she hasnt been to ceroc since :sad:
CJ
7th-November-2005, 11:21 AM
Have been reading this with interest. And thank you, Di, for posting this.
Am glad you took the stand, but at least you have (*a modicum of*) a choice.
Have been in agony for a while now. Having led a dip, I found myself in a full-head-at-feet-level drop before I knew what was happening.
Could be worse... It might have impinged on my band life, my dancing, my ability to sit at a PC for long periods and do my job properly without taking breaks, my ability to drive distances, or my playing football.:angry: :angry:
That said, having read this thread, it worries me that I've become a serial dipper.:eek: A few of the ladies that have posted (either here or the other thread) have danced with me and I've been (too) presumptious and led dips/drops without asking.:worthy: :blush: :blush: :flower:
mmm, quiet reflection period, required is...
DianaS
7th-November-2005, 11:32 AM
Could be worse... It might have impinged on my band life, my dancing, my ability to sit at a PC for long periods and do my job properly without taking breaks, my ability to drive distances, or my playing football.:angry: :angry:
You know there is no excuse
fancy a rewrite of that number?
I'll supply the lyrics
Yes the fear of that is very real. I promised myself never to fight again if only the pain went away. I felt guilty about putting the kids in such a position where they see their Mum icing her neck hourly, unable to move, unable to drive (you can't look over your shoulder) unable to turn her had without turning her entire body.
Having to lie flat on her back with her neck supported by a pillow, and not knowing if it would ever go away. Sometimes the damage can be permanent. That is very scary.
Doing it to accidentally to your self is one thing, having someone else do it to you is quite another.
Hows the band matey great gig the other night:cheers:
MartinHarper
7th-November-2005, 12:14 PM
Am glad you took the stand, but at least you have (*a modicum of*) a choice.
Have been in agony for a while now. Having led a dip, I found myself in a full-head-at-feet-level drop before I knew what was happening.
I recommend letting go.
David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 01:43 PM
I recommend letting go.
I've been there (as we all have I suspect). Yes, in hindsight you might let them throw themselves at the floor, but there usually isn't the time to make that kind of judgement, it's a split-second thing and most good leaders should (hopefully) instinctively try to minimize injuries to their partners.
Despite how dumb this may be for their own health. :rolleyes:
Ghost
7th-November-2005, 04:51 PM
I recommend letting go.
I've been there (as we all have I suspect). Yes, in hindsight you might let them throw themselves at the floor, but there usually isn't the time to make that kind of judgement, it's a split-second thing and most good leaders should (hopefully) instinctively try to minimize injuries to their partners.
Despite how dumb this may be for their own health. :rolleyes:
It's one of those things to work out where you stand in a nice, quiet time and place. Personally I have dived after people who've tripped on the pavement, falling down stairs (that was fun), lost their balance on the tube, tripped up the seats in the Royal Albert Hall etc. But, I've had a bit of practice at this sort of thing so I haven't been hurt - if the choice is you being seriously hurt or the lady who's thrown herself at the floor of her own volition :tears: Well admittedly I'd still throw myself even if it meant being hurt, but that's my choice and probably why I get asked about dancing with ladies coated in contact venom.... It's also probably why I don't dance a lot of drops. And I fully reserve the right to walk off and never dance with them again if a lady leads her own drops.
Take care,
Christopher
MartinHarper
7th-November-2005, 05:19 PM
Having two younger sisters, my instincts are to stand well clear when women want to do something that I naively think might not be a fantastic idea... :)
TiggsTours
7th-November-2005, 05:41 PM
On another line of thought on this, girls are always taught in classes not to throw themselves into drops, as they may not have interpretted the lead right, they should not put themselves or their partners at risk by doing so, and they need to support their own weight. Mutually, they can let the guy take their weight, so long as both parties are happy with this. Nobody ever disputes that the lady has responsibility for how she drops, why then is there even a debate as to whether or not that should work the other way round? If the guy doesn't want to do drops etc. he's leading, he doesn't have to lead them, if the lady doesn't want to do them, she's following, why shouldn't she refuse to follow them (if she's already told the guy she doesn't want to do them?) Why do some guys get so much pleasure out of throwing the girl into a drop she obviously doesn't want to do, and spoiling her pleasure of the dance? Are these the same boys that used to pull our pig tails at school, and cut the legs off our barbies?
Ann
7th-November-2005, 07:31 PM
I realise I have joined this thread incredibly late but would like to congratulate the lady in question on taking a stance. I have taught Ceroc for about 9 years in Newcastle and rarely teach lifts and drops for safety reasons. With 120 people in the room it can only be asking for trouble if a proportion of them start to lift and drop their partners! Someone once said to me "but if they were taught properly in the first place..." Would that I could apply that nice little requirement!!! ALL of our moves are TAUGHT properly - so why don't people DANCE them properly????
As I'm quite a small person men seem to be of the opinion that it's okay to throw me around; I weigh 8 stone but can behave like I weigh 16 stone when I feel something dangerous coming on! Try it ladies. I once had a man stand behind me and say 'fall back'. WHAT??
Finally, men and ladies, (as they wave their spare legs around showing all to the watching crowds!) should maybe consider that they would look more graceful, glamorous, elegant, in control etc etc if they stayed upright and allowed their partner to do so...
robd
7th-November-2005, 07:48 PM
Perhaps we should wear coloured handkerchiefs to indicate one's preference in this area? I have heard it is a useful distinguishing mechanism for other sections of the population.
RogerR
7th-November-2005, 09:10 PM
It should be possible for men to invite a partner onto the dance floor expressly for lifts/drops etc and she should have the opportunity to accept or decline that invitation.
Likewise when nursing an injury an advance request to take care of.... is fine as a response to an invitation to dance.
Having a battle in the middle of the floor is one way to make fiends and influence people.
The biggest problem lies always in the definition of the big bad moves. Is a double spin a bad move as some girls dont balance well on the second turn.
Each woman in the room will have a different idea of acceptable moves.
DianaS
7th-November-2005, 10:04 PM
I've been there (as we all have I suspect). Yes, in hindsight you might let them throw themselves at the floor, but there usually isn't the time to make that kind of judgement, it's a split-second thing and most good leaders should (hopefully) instinctively try to minimize injuries to their partners.
Despite how dumb this may be for their own health. :rolleyes:
YEP I think I know how you feel here most guys just couldn't let their partner fall, its a very human thing that element of trust.
After a good fight some martial artists embrace 2 guys, 2 girls, a guy and a girl its a very human thing. I've also seen a guy fall short of a punch when he saw his sparring partner in trouble. It's the herd instinct. Most of us aren't out for ourselves but will protect the weaker ones. I've been hugged by a black belt after he put me through my paces for over ten minites prior to a competition.
I've also fought a European black belt champion who let me win because he realised how scared I was. This didn't do his reputation any good, but in the dojang you aren't allowed to turn down a fight, and when I was called I went
He hugged me because I did well, I met his challenge and fought him with integrity which is why I feel so outraged by these guys behaviour. I've fought with the best and don't shy away from challenge but these guys seemed to me to lack honour, and that's what I found appauling.
To be honest they would be disciplined in a dojang. The master would take them to one side and give them a taste of their own medicine. They would learn quickly and either leave or behave more appropriately.
You know though that in 2 years of dancing this is the only time I've left. I've had some lovely dances with lovely guys and most of you don't even need to read this, so I'll stop my rant here SilverFox and other forumites gave me lovely dances that night. I'll keep them in my dreams:cheers: :hug:
Gary
8th-November-2005, 12:36 AM
...Somewhat later a chap I was dancing with signalled an arial which I refused. He complained about this ...
That's just not on. Whatever makes the lady uncomfortable, you just don't do (and you certainly don't pout about it). I've had dances where the lady has asked for "no dips", or "nothing strenuous" or (more challengingly) dances where the girl has an injured left arm or right arm. Part of the guy's job is to adjust to what the girl likes/doesn't like. I've never had a girl ask for "no aerials" because I don't do them except with my dance partner.
bigdjiver
8th-November-2005, 01:18 AM
...The second guy signalled to lead an ariel and I shook my head and said no staying well back. He then said "oh, why not?!" and I felt him start to make a scene so I replied "if thats how you feel" and walked away...I rather suspected that DianaS had a very bad night. She was not alone. I did not really dig most of the music, and most times a track came on I started to head for the stage end but found myself being asked by ladies that I could not dance with as I liked.:(
I found myself on the other end of such a situation. I asked a lady to dance, and almost instantly recognised the track (though I cannot name it). It has three sections in it that go one, two, three, four .....up to ten. It is one of the rare tracks that I have choreography for. I sit the lady on my lap three times during the "numbers section, and then shake her during the "Rock on" section. Some ladies love it. There is/was a picture of a lady laughing her head off doing just this move on the blues dance site. Anyway I did the slap my thigh :devil: signal:devil: and she said "I don't do them." Unable to hide my disappointment I said "Aaaaah" as I tried to work out what to do instead - and was abandoned. Obviously I am very sorry that I was not able to hide my disappointment. My brain does not work that quick. In my case there was no attempt to change the ladies mind, no conversation, just "Aaaaah". I have always championed the ladies right to say no, and I am no hypocrite on the dance floor.
I dashed around the dance floor, and picked another lady. I had danced with a couple of times, though never anything fancy. I managed to get my little mini routine in on the last chorus. Tonight that lady said that she had never done anything like that before, but had liked it, and I had three dances with her, including a superb "Fire".
People are allowed to say "No". They are allowed to leave uncomfortable situations. They are allowed to show disappointment, though sometimes it is better to hide it. I am very sorry that DianaS had a bad night.
Ickle Chick'n
8th-November-2005, 02:04 PM
Firstly :worthy: well done girlie! There have been times I should have walked away and didn't... needless to say it usually ends in tears!
I have to say it is deffinately the ladies choice to be or not to be dropped as it's usually her that is likely to be thrust into the path of others or hurled towards the floor, chairs etc.
In guy's defense there are some I have done drops with that have been fine so I'm usually happy with them again but some occasionally have a bad day and aren't so safe/carefull, trouble is guys, if they do ask, only do it the first time they dance with you usually and how do you know until you're dancing if it's gonna be a good day or bad...?! Therefore guys should ask prior to a drop or should give a clear signal in time to abort if you need!
We are not taught drops in classes here that often, if we are it's a simple 1st move seducer and even that shows ladies not listening to rules about keeping feet on the floor and guys not bending backs. Our teacher's very hot on this and stops everyone to re-enforce issues if this happens. To do drops mostly you have to do a specific drops and seducers class where he can watch closer in smaller groups and target problems before they start!
To guys who disrespect the choice of the ladies not to drop, and there are quite a number out there who get stroppy... you are obviously not as experienced as you think so stop doing drops or go to a refreshers workshop! Ladies... keep both feet on the floor where possible that way you have some control, if not dig your nails in somewhere painful (but make sure you have a good grip so if he lets go of you in pain you don't hit the floor, stick on nails might not be a hot idea either incase they come unstuck!
:whistle: ) :flower:
bigdjiver
6th-December-2005, 04:22 AM
A light has come on (at last) and I am correcting an error.
When my partner refused the invitation to do a move I first found and alternative - The first move - then I tried to work out a new strategy. I asked myself "Why not?" Was it too UCP or was it because it was a mini-arial? I got two answers. "Didn't she post something about an injury, and avoiding arials?" and "It does not matter why, just keep it simple." I then tried to work out which move to do next, but never found out, because my partner walked off at that moment.
... My brain does not work that quick.:yeah:
In my case there was no attempt to change the ladies mind, :yeah:
no conversation, :confused: I now realise that, with the brain over-stretched, without realising it, must have articulated the question. I wrote "No conversation." because I did not talk to her, (I was talking to myself) and did not hear any reply. (combination of loud DJ, and her having her back to me?)
I have always championed the ladies right to say no, :yeah:
I have always also said that the person refusing deserves the assumption that they have a good reason, and has no duty to give it.
Diana : Sorry. :blush: :tears: :flower: (+ some rep)
Trish
8th-December-2005, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by robd
I think the majority experience (at least where I have danced) is that leaders have an expectation that followers will do drops unless explicitly informed otherwise.
Originally posted by Gus
That is one of the most disturbing statements I have ever read on this Forum. Lets go back to basics.
I tend to dance in some of the same venues as Robd, and I would agree with him - mostly you don't get asked if you want to do drops, and it's presumed that if you don't want to you'll say so. This may of course be because I know a heck of a lot of the dancers at the regular night and freestyles I go to, and they know I generally like drops. I do however, have a niggly shoulder, and if this is playing up or the dancefloor is excessively crowded, I will sometimes ask guys, in advance not to do drops on that particular night. Usually they are fine about this, and on the one or two occasions they've questioned it, it's mainly because they're interested in an explanation of why. Occasionally I have danced with men that I don't feel very safe with, and I will also ask them not to do drops, and generally tell them that I don't feel safe (I'm pretty blunt really!)
In answer to what you said Gus, whether or not drops are "red moves" some CCentral teachers do teach them fairly regularly, and do tend to stress the safety aspects, but that doesn't mean everyone is listening all the time. It may have been said but I can't remember anyone tell people explicitly to ask before doing drops in the venues I go to - I shall listen out for that and try to see. I definitely have heard warnings from the stage against doing drops/aerials when it's crowded.
Rob himself is very thoughtful, but some others aren't, I think if DianaS felt like she didn't want to do this, and said so, then the guys should respect that, and she did the right thing walking away rather than arguing for ages on the dancefloor. But most people like an explanation.
bigdjiver
8th-December-2005, 04:13 PM
... I think if DianaS felt like she didn't want to do this, and said so, then the guys should respect that, and she did the right thing walking away rather than arguing for ages on the dancefloor. But most people like an explanation.I think that it should be assumed that if a lady refuses a dance or style of dance or a move it should be assumed that she has a good reason, and that it may be a private one, so no explanation should be asked for or expected. I do not ask why a lady refuses. In this instance I asked myself "Why not?", and in my confusion it appears I verbalised it without knowing it.
More than once I have solved very heated, and sometimes disasterous, arguments, by assuming that both parties, who seem to be telling opposite tales, are telling the truth as they saw it. I only eventually worked out what happened here because of fortunate coincidences - me telling a "they are both right" tale, a PM that led me to this thread, and somebody not realising that they were singing when dancing to a track.
MartinHarper
9th-December-2005, 12:38 AM
Given bigd's revelations, and his and Diana's earlier posts, there is a splendid opportunity here to morph this "guys are evil" themed thread into a "signals are evil" thread. Who wants to start?
Asif
9th-December-2005, 11:55 PM
What a great thread DianaS. As Gus said, this is one of those things that people will continually talk about but i totally agree with you, 100 percent. I have a few of stories that i would like to share (apologies in advance if i bore anyone).
Story One
========
I was dancing with one of my beginners last Monday and, at the end of the track, went to do a very gentle dip just to finish the dance. I could tell immediately that she had no idea what i was going to do, so i did not continue trying to do the dip. She asked me what i had tried to do and i explained it to her. She asked me why i just didn't do it (previous other guys had just "made" her do dips). I explained that i never do dips (or aerials) on people that either do not want to or do not know what they are doing, as it is not fair on them (as well as being a potential danger to all). She thanked me, asked me to show how to do dips and then had a go.
Story Two
========
A very good friend (and very competent dancer), who likes doing aerials a lot, was doing them on relative beginner at the venue where i taxi. Without hesitation i went over and told him off and asked him not to do it again because a) it was a crowded evening and the other "not-so-good" dancers around him, with their lack of spacial awareness, could injure themselves as well as just not enjoying dancing near him, and b) what he thought was fun might be a bit frightening for his partner (he hadn't danced with her before) and should think of her enjoyment just as much as his, instead of just possibly scaring her.
Story Three
=========
I danced with a lady one time who, before we started dancing, told me not to do any kind of dips on her because she had a back injury and had also had some bad experiences from other guys, so had been completely put off doing dips anymore. I didn't do any dips with her but i asked her at the end of our dance if she actually liked dips - she said yes. I asked her if i could show her a couple of "light" dips where she could keep some control - she obliged. After that, she asked me for another dance and i put a couple of these dips in ... and her face just lit up!
Story Four
========
I was dancing with a friend once and went to do a simple/slow ballroom drop. She threw herself into it and bashed her head on the ground. I was mortified and apologised but she told me not to as it was totally her fault. She "thought" i was doing something else and decide to threw herself into that move, hence the accident.
The Moral of the Stories .........
Guys - please exercise complete safety towards your partner when doing dips/aerials (during, before AND after).
Guys - please show due courtesy to everyone else when doing dips/aerials.
Most importantly though, it is the the girls perogative to say No (even if she just "physically" stops you trying to do a drop/aerial) - please respect her wishes.
Sorry for the rant/lecture/diatribe/moan........end of !!
WittyBird
10th-December-2005, 03:01 AM
What a great thread DianaS. As Gus said, this is one of those things that people will continually talk about but i totally agree with you, 100 percent. I have a few of stories that i would like to share (apologies in advance if i bore anyone).
you are obviously some sort of God :worthy:
Asif
10th-December-2005, 05:42 PM
you are obviously some sort of God :worthy:
Thanks honey ... (i'll pay you later :wink: )
I've been dancing for what seems an eternity (you'd think after all this time i'd be a better dancer then :eek: ) and it really gets my goat when i hear of stories like this. I won't start another rant (trying reeeeeeally hard to bite my lip) otherwise everyone WILL get bored.
On a side note - for those guys who REALLY insist on doing drops/aerials on a crowded dance floor with no consideration to everyone else let alone their dance partner - i'm going to phone the Dance Police and tell them about you. :mad:
Lory
10th-December-2005, 06:05 PM
On a side note - for those guys who REALLY insist on doing drops/aerials on a crowded dance floor with no consideration to everyone else let alone their dance partner - i'm going to phone the Dance Police and tell them about you. :mad:
I nearly had to call them last night :angry:
Cruella
12th-December-2005, 05:42 PM
I nearly had to call them last night :angry:
Yes at Chesham, i wonder if it was the same guy that threw his partner into a drop whilst i was dancing with SF. All of a sudden the ladies head appeared inbetween us it was an extremely close call. She nearly got sandwiched between two groins!!:mad:
TiggsTours
12th-December-2005, 06:06 PM
I was dancing with a guy a few weeks ago now who decided to do a ballroom drop on me. There was nothing technically wrong with what he did, and although he did it on quite a crowded floor, at the edge, there was plenty of space around us so I decided to allow him to lead it (keeping a close eye around me, and maintaining enough contol that I could pull myself out of it at any time). Problem is that when he did the drop he had me angled so that my head was pointing in towards the floor.
We finished the dance, we both thoroughly enjoyed it, and as we were leaving the floor I said something. All I said, in a very polite way, was "I hope you don't mind, can I give you a little bit of advice" to which he said yes. I then went on to explain to him that, when doing the ballroom drop, and any other drops, especially on a crowded floor, it is best to ensure the girls head is pointing away from other dancers as it reduces the possibility of her getting kicked in the face. He took the advice really well, said that it had honestly never occurred to him, and thanked me. I have seen him doing the ballroom drop a few times since, and he always has his partner facing away from danger.
Everybody takes criticsim well, when it is offered in the correct manner, and with the best intentions.
Lucy Locket
12th-December-2005, 10:15 PM
Some time ago i was led into a drop, too many people of the dance floor, and the couple next to us were doing the same. Well my head & the other lady's head met as we both went down at the same time. NOT very nice.
David Bailey
13th-December-2005, 10:13 AM
Some time ago i was led into a drop, too many people of the dance floor, and the couple next to us were doing the same. Well my head & the other lady's head met as we both went down at the same time. NOT very nice.
I've said it a few times, but I'll repeat it: guys, if you do drops in a crowded floor, it's a good idea to put your hand on the back of the lady's head, to support and protect it.
Rhythm King
13th-December-2005, 02:06 PM
I've said it a few times, but I'll repeat it: guys, if you do drops in a crowded floor, it's a good idea to put your hand on the back of the lady's head, to support and protect it.
Better yet - don't do drops or aerials on crowded floors :rolleyes:
David Bailey
13th-December-2005, 03:31 PM
Better yet - don't do drops or aerials on crowded floors :rolleyes:
OK, good point, let me re-phrase that:
"Guys, if you're dumb enough to do drops in a crowded floor, please at least be considerate enough to put your hand on the back of the lady's head, to support and protect it."
How's that?
ducasi
13th-December-2005, 03:51 PM
I'm curious how you do drops and support the girl's head at the same time – do you have a really long third arm?
David Franklin
13th-December-2005, 03:58 PM
I'm curious how you do drops and support the girl's head at the same time – do you have a really long third arm?If you're looking for the innuendo thread, you need to go over there (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7103).
Being serious, I'm guessing the confusion is over exactly what is a drop v.s. a dip v.s. a seducer. There are obviously a lot of drops (e.g. Ballroom drop) where supporting the girl's head is impractical...
David Bailey
13th-December-2005, 04:21 PM
Being serious, I'm guessing the confusion is over exactly what is a drop v.s. a dip v.s. a seducer. There are obviously a lot of drops (e.g. Ballroom drop) where supporting the girl's head is impractical...
Yes - but I'm not amending it again, I'd get into a "What have drops ever done for us?" scenario.
TiggsTours
14th-December-2005, 10:47 AM
I'm curious how you do drops and support the girl's head at the same time – do you have a really long third arm?
To true, and when doing some drops I'd prefer it if you (the plural, directed to all guys who do drps) were to use both hands to support the various parts of my body that need it more! Like holding both hands in the ballroom drop or supporting my back properly when doing the neck drop or the one where you hold the girl under one arm. Generally, in most drops, my arms are free, and I can quite stylishly protect my own head with them.
But better still, as RK said, just don't do drops with me on a crowded floor!
Asif
16th-December-2005, 06:49 PM
OK, good point, let me re-phrase that:
"Guys, if you're dumb enough to do drops in a crowded floor, please at least be considerate enough to put your hand on the back of the lady's head, to support and protect it."
How's that?
Well, if they're dumb enough to do drops on a crowded floor, i wouldn't want to take bets on them even thinking about the dangers let alone actually being considerate enough to support/protect the ladies heads either! :eek:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.