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Ghost
3rd-November-2005, 03:28 PM
From the "Competitions are Evil" thread

"Now how this new emerging dance (call it "Competition Jive") is going to co-exist with Modern Jive is an interesting question. I think increasingly people are going to see them as related but separate - a bit like Lindy and Modern Jive are now. Already most Ceroc competitors don't actually go to Ceroc classes (unless they teach/taxi at them!)."
and


Also the judges don't seem to reward musical interpretation enough to make it worth competitors concentrating on that instead of flashy, choreographed moves. I've spoken to several competition winners, and they all say that if you're preparing for a big trick and you realise there's a break coming, you should complete the trick and ignore the break, rather than aborting for something simple that fits the music better.
Ok, personally I'm not going to enter any competitions. To each their own, :cheers: they're just not for me.

I was considering getting a dvd of one of the Champs or something similar to look at how the more advanced chain moves, interpret etc. Basically the same idea as when I sit out a dance to watch, only with (presumably) more skilled dancers and the bonus of being able to pause / rewind.

But based on David's comments I'm wondering if this would lead me off in the wrong direction (for me). :confused:

I've only seen one couple practicing a routine at a venue under the watchful eye of a teacher, but frankly they looked miserable. :tears:

So any recommendations for dvds which clearly show a couple having fun, freestyling rather than routining and dancing really well (in your opinion - I don't really care what the judges gave them). Or should I just avoid the whole thing?

Thanks
Christopher

David Franklin
3rd-November-2005, 04:06 PM
From the "Competitions are Evil" thread

"Now how this new emerging dance (call it "Competition Jive") is going to co-exist with Modern Jive is an interesting question. I think increasingly people are going to see them as related but separate - a bit like Lindy and Modern Jive are now. Already most Ceroc competitors don't actually go to Ceroc classes (unless they teach/taxi at them!)."What idiot posted that?

Oh. :blush:

From recent experiences (i.e. BFG :worthy: ), I think I was more than a bit hasty with the above. (I must have been in a bad mood!) At least in Scotland the "mainstream" MJ movement does seem to be moving in the same direction as the competitors. I'm not sure why Ceroc in London seems to be lagging behind; maybe it's just the venues I go to.


I was considering getting a dvd of one of the Champs or something similar to look at how the more advanced chain moves, interpret etc. Basically the same idea as when I sit out a dance to watch, only with (presumably) more skilled dancers and the bonus of being able to pause / rewind.You just need to be aware there's a different emphasis, and don't blindly look at what the winners do and think "I ought to look like that when dancing socially". Pick what you like and discard what you don't, and remember that (a) they've probably practiced together for ages, (b) they only have to dance for 4 minutes, not all evening, and (c) they've got a lot more space than you'll have at a free style night.

ChrisA
3rd-November-2005, 04:23 PM
So any recommendations for dvds which clearly show a couple having fun, freestyling rather than routining and dancing really well (in your opinion - I don't really care what the judges gave them). Or should I just avoid the whole thing?

Any recent competition footage of Simon and Lisa would be worth watching. They've got big moves, and they do them musically too.

Anything with Clayton and Janine in, or Will and Kate too, the same thing applies to, mostly.

It's been discussed endlessly before (so much so that I don't even have the energy to find a Harperlink to the thread), but mostly, even in competitions where the competitors have some big moves that look pretty choreographed, it is not the same as the showcase where the whole performance is choreographed. I don't know any competitors that actually do the same routine to a substantial part of a track, regardless of the music.

That said, if the moves you do fit the phrases, quite a lot of things can be made to fit quite a lot of music. But the real greats don't seem to do this.

Ghost
3rd-November-2005, 04:45 PM
Any recent competition footage of Simon and Lisa would be worth watching. They've got big moves, and they do them musically too.

Anything with Clayton and Janine in, or Will and Kate too, the same thing applies to, mostly.
Ok this is harder than I thought it was going to be :tears:

Where can I get dvds with footage of the above? I've found sites selling the Champs '03 and '04 but they don't give any real info as to who's in them.

Thanks,
Christopher

ChrisA
3rd-November-2005, 05:16 PM
Ok this is harder than I thought it was going to be :tears:

Where can I get dvds with footage of the above? I've found sites selling the Champs '03 and '04 but they don't give any real info as to who's in them.

Well Simon & Lisa won the Britrock Open a few weeks ago, so if there's a DVD of that there'll be lots of them in that.

http://www.jivelive.com/britrock/ will get you some contact details.

In fact there's no Blackpool 2005 or Ceroc Champs 2005 DVD AFAIK, at least not officially, and I don't think they were competing together before this year. So the BritRock one may be your best bet for them.

Simon and Keeley (well known at Advanced and Open level in the last few years) have done pretty well too and they always look like they're having fun.

There'll be lots of Clayton and Janine and Will and Kate in the '03 and '04 ones, and also in the Blackpool ones from the last few years.

Contacts for the Blackpool comp at http://www.achance2dance.co.uk

HTH

drathzel
3rd-November-2005, 09:09 PM
My dance partner and i (Jammy) really enjoy dancing together and even when were were practicing for the Scot Champs, we still had lots of fun and really enjoyed ourselves!

I always said i wasnt going to compete, but i had so much fun that i would consider it in the future but thats not the reason i dance!

baldrick
6th-November-2005, 07:29 PM
For my opinion type thing,
the competitors seem to concentrate on the crowd/judges. They are dancing for other people, to be watched. Any life, spontiaity, mistakes are avioded.

the social dancers are concentrating on each other (and the space around them) and having fun, with all the entertaining possibilities for perfect moments and disasters that that can lead to.

I'm not sure you can learn to have fun. Its one of those things that happens when you're not looking.

ChrisA
6th-November-2005, 11:08 PM
Question:

Are there any people out there that have competed, that now believe that competitions are evil?

If so, I'd love to hear from them.

Because to date, I haven't seen a single example of anyone that actually knows anything about it, slag off competitions and those that compete.

Whereas lots of people that don't compete, are staggeringly willing to talk a load of complete cobblers about it.

:flower:



My dance partner and i (Jammy) really enjoy dancing together and even when were were practicing for the Scot Champs, we still had lots of fun and really enjoyed ourselves!

Careful, Danielle, you'll be making people's heads explode with all this talk of competing *and* having fun.

Goodness, anyone would think you're still capable of social dancing, after this departure to the dark side... :whistle:

MartinHarper
7th-November-2005, 12:18 AM
Whereas lots of people that don't compete, are staggeringly willing to talk a load of complete cobblers about it.

Compare and contrast premier league football, where nobody ever expresses an opinion except those who are capable of playing football at that level.

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 12:40 AM
Compare and contrast premier league football, where nobody ever expresses an opinion except those who are capable of playing football at that level.
You seem to be agreeing with me :innocent:

drathzel
7th-November-2005, 01:00 AM
Careful, Danielle, you'll be making people's heads explode with all this talk of competing *and* having fun.

Goodness, anyone would think you're still capable of social dancing, after this departure to the dark side... :whistle:
Oops, :blush: I will never mention it again! Wouldnt want people getting confused!!:rofl:

MartinHarper
7th-November-2005, 02:26 AM
You seem to be agreeing with me :innocent:

Perhaps.
Still, I don't criticise the millions of football fans and thousands of football pundits who express an opinion on football without being quite as good as Mr. Rooney.
It seems that you don't share my reticence.

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 09:34 AM
Still, I don't criticise the millions of football fans and thousands of football pundits who express an opinion on football without being quite as good as Mr. Rooney.

Mostly the football fans do watch the matches though. They don't just have a kick about with their friends and then announce that the premiership is evil.

jivecat
7th-November-2005, 09:58 AM
Classic sparring from Messrs. A and Harper. Keep it up lads, this much more fun than boring old competitons. It's a bit like watching a game of tennis. I think we should have a new BFG award, for the longest continuous volley. (?)
Could be called the Love-all award.

Gus
7th-November-2005, 10:23 AM
Question:

Are there any people out there that have competed, that now believe that competitions are evil?

If so, I'd love to hear from them.Yup ... me. Happy now?

TA Guy
7th-November-2005, 10:27 AM
I brought the 2005 Ceroc champs DVD.

If your looking for musicality, forget it, one of the advanced songs in the final had several breaks, not one couple got a single break, I wouldn't say it was exactly packed full of advanced or original moves either. LOL. Whether that is because there is a kind of 'play it safe' thing going on, or a knowledge of what the judges want, I have no idea, but I would describe it as 'bland' :)

David Franklin
7th-November-2005, 10:57 AM
I brought the 2005 Ceroc champs DVD. :what: I thought Ceroc had said they were not releasing the DVD this year.

MartinHarper
7th-November-2005, 11:20 AM
Keep it up lads, this much more fun than boring old competitons.

That's obviously because it's freestyle and unchoreographed.
Or maybe it's because we're in front of an audience, and being awarded scores.
One or the other, anyway.


Mostly the football fans do watch the matches though.

Ahh, my mistake. I thought you were criticising "people that don't compete" who are "staggeringly willing to talk a load of complete cobblers about it".
Now I see that it's those who criticise competitions without ever watching one who have attracted your ire.
Please forgive my confusion.

David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 11:43 AM
That's obviously because it's freestyle and unchoreographed.
Or maybe it's because we're in front of an audience, and being awarded scores.
One or the other, anyway.
2.9 for presentation, 5.3 for word interpretation and 5.9 for use of sarcasm. :blush:


Ahh, my mistake. I thought you were criticising "people that don't compete" who are "staggeringly willing to talk a load of complete cobblers about it".
Now I see that it's those who criticise competitions without ever watching one who have attracted your ire.
Please forgive my confusion.
It's not unreasonable to ask that people are informed when expressing an opinion - and watching, participating in, or judging competitions is certainly one way to be informed about them. Although the fact that someone takes part in a competition mya be seen as a bias when discussing the merits of competing (and vice versa, of course).

But IMO it becomes unreasonable when "being informed" is equated with "having done competitions". The obvious analogy here is current affairs / politics; to take a reductio-ad-absurdum example, do we have to be soldiers to express an opinion about the war in Iraq?

LMC
7th-November-2005, 11:45 AM
*settles into back row with popcorn*

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 11:58 AM
Yup ... me. Happy now?
Ok, so why do you think so?

David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 12:06 PM
OK, getting back to the original question - Ghost, I don't think you need to worry about damaging your social style by watching competition DVDs, it won't make you go blind or anything. :innocent:

And it's certainly a valid way to help learning. Obviously, techniques developed by competitors will be specific to their own preferences, strengths and characteristics. But it should certainly give some good pointers.

The only caveat, again obviously, is not to rely on it (or for that matter anything) exclusively to develop your style and technique; there are no shortcuts to working it out for yourself IMO.

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 12:14 PM
*settles into back row with popcorn*
Why is it that every time anyone starts to actually discuss something on this forum, people with no interest in the thread have to appear and mock those that are participating?

And in particular, why do they have to pretend there's a fight going on when there isn't?

Has the normal supply of intelligent conversation to be had on the singleton's sofa run out or something?

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 12:35 PM
But IMO it becomes unreasonable when "being informed" is equated with "having done competitions". The obvious analogy here is current affairs / politics; to take a reductio-ad-absurdum example, do we have to be soldiers to express an opinion about the war in Iraq?
Clearly not, and I agree with you here.

"Being informed" covers a wide spectrum though.

You could form a view of whether you'd enjoy competitions by being present at one and watching, perhaps.

Whereas to become informed about what practising for, and actually participating in, competitions is like, probably does need some actual experience.

Other views can only come about by misinformation or speculation, though. For instance, this notion that "competition dancing is bad for social dancing" - where does that come from? I would expect the vast majority of those that actually had some experience, to find that their social dancing is enhanced by the competition practice.

Then there are those that allege that lead and follow isn't needed for competition dancing, which is simply nonsense - it's just as necessary as it is socially. Again, where do they get this view from? Not through doing it, obviously.

So although you don't have to compete in order to be able to form some valid views about the scene, I would still say that for other aspects, you certainly do need some experience to be able to comment sensibly.

Gus
7th-November-2005, 01:22 PM
Ok, so why do you think so? .... tried to remember all the points made during the 27 times this subject has been debated

OK ... some of the bad things that come to mind are;

Ego-mania
Couples putting each other through hell to get up to scratch
Focus on shapes/flash moves rather than dancing
Egos
Plethora of courses taught by someone who once got placed in a competition with 3 people
Movement away from just 'enjoying dance'
Diminution of focus of musical interpretation
Competitive spirit can counter 'friendly' spirit
Egos


Actualy, there are some very good things about competitions, but they would take away the fun bit of the debate.

David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 01:30 PM
Clearly not, and I agree with you here.
:eek:


Whereas to become informed about what practising for, and actually participating in, competitions is like, probably does need some actual experience.
Weeell... if you rephrased it as "it will help to have some experience", I'd agree. I might even go as far as "it will help a lot", 'coz I'm a generous soul.


Other views can only come about by misinformation or speculation, though. For instance, this notion that "competition dancing is bad for social dancing" - where does that come from? I would expect the vast majority of those that actually had some experience, to find that their social dancing is enhanced by the competition practice.
I've got some views on this - not quite as simplistic as "competition dancing is bad for social dancing", but more like "competition dancing is different to social dancing, requires different skills and techniques, which sometimes don't translate into social dancing settings".

Not exactly catchy, I'll admit, but that's my misinformed and speculative view.


Then there are those that allege that lead and follow isn't needed for competition dancing, which is simply nonsense - it's just as necessary as it is socially. Again, where do they get this view from? Not through doing it, obviously.
Dunno - I can't remember anyone arguing this though, and I certainly wouldn't. Good lead-and-follow is definitely vital to both disciplines - caveats as stated above, however.

CJ
7th-November-2005, 01:32 PM
Why is it that every time anyone starts to actually discuss something on this forum, people with no interest in the thread have to appear and mock those that are participating?

And in particular, why do they have to pretend there's a fight going on when there isn't?

Has the normal supply of intelligent conversation to be had on the singleton's sofa run out or something?

Does this happen every time?

Some participants are more worthy of mockery than others.

Did anyone allude to a fight? Is it inconcievable that someone could eat popcorn whilst watching two tennis greats (McEnroe/Borg) swing it out in epic style? When is a discussion no longer an argument and when does it become a fight?

An interesting take on another thread. One could wager you were looking for a fight. One could also ponder:

Why is it that every time anyone starts to actually discuss something on this forum, people with no interest in the thread have to appear and mock those that are participating?
with a pertinence to The Singletons' Sofa thread.

LMC
7th-November-2005, 01:43 PM
Why is it that every time anyone starts to actually discuss something on this forum, people with no interest in the thread have to appear and mock those that are participating?
As it 'appens, I am interested. But I can't contribute sensibly due to lack of knowledge. In a pub, you'd be able to see that I was being both informed and entertained by listening in and keeping quiet (for a nice change). Here, you can't see who is 'listening'.

The popcorn comment might be slightly malicious and rather childish, but is a mark of respect rather than mockery - looks like this could become a truly great debate.

The only thought I have on the matter is that it seems to me that DJ is making sense in his differentiation between the skills. Being able to perfectly execute a routine does not necessarily make you a good social dancer: someone once said to me that a competition winner they danced with was a rather poor follower - in his opinion, she was unused to freestyle. When I'm a bit more informed I might even have a clue what questions might be sensible. Until then, I'll continued to be entertained :D

Gus
7th-November-2005, 01:47 PM
Did anyone allude to a fight? Is it inconcievable that someone could eat popcorn whilst watching two tennis greats (McEnroe/Borg) swing it out in epic style? When is a discussion no longer an argument and when does it become a fight?OY BU**ER OFF AND FIND YOUR OWN THREAD!

Urrrrrr what I meant to say is that you may be somewhat off thread ..... but if you want a fight, Only GIRLS wear skirts :na: :na: :na:

David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 01:50 PM
The only thought I have on the matter is that it seems to me that DJ is making sense in his differentiation between the skills.
Yay! I'm making sense! :innocent:
Oh hold, on - LMC thinks I'm making sense... :eek:

OK, anyway, some different (non-transferrable) competition-specific skills could be:

Emphasis on visually-striking dancing (big moves)
Selection of costumes and other presentational matters
Doing specific moves, techniques and style with your specific partner (e.g. aerials, and knowing your partner’s strength and weaknesses)
“Judge-attention-grabbing” techniques and tricks (dancing the flashy stuff when being watched)

In the interests of fairness, you'd also have to say that some social dance skills also don't transfer well.

So, social-specific skills could be:

Floorcraft on a very busy floor (e.g. no aerials)
Adaptation to your partner’s style, lots of different times in one evening
Adaptation to your partner’s level, again lots of times
Emphasis on enjoying the dance above all - focussing on your partner's enjoyment rather than on any observers

David Franklin
7th-November-2005, 01:54 PM
I've got some views on this - not quite as simplistic as "competition dancing is bad for social dancing", but more like "competition dancing is different to social dancing, requires different skills and techniques, which sometimes don't translate into social dancing settings". I don't think you'd see ChrisA arguing with that. But I also don't see that as any kind of argument for your oft-repeated claim that competitions are evil.

Then there are those that allege that lead and follow isn't needed for competition dancing, which is simply nonsense - it's just as necessary as it is socially.

I can't remember anyone arguing this though, and I certainly wouldn't. Good lead-and-follow is definitely vital to both disciplines - caveats as stated above, however.I seem to be having trouble with the forum search engine at the moment (every search seems to bring up 200 threads completely unrelated to my queries), but there have been tons of posts along the lines ChrisA mentions. Maybe not quite saying "competition doesn't require lead/follow", but certainly saying "competition has very little to do with lead/follow", when IME most competitive dancers are superb leads or follows.

CJ
7th-November-2005, 02:02 PM
Urrrrrr what I meant to say is that you may be somewhat off thread ..... but if you want a fight, Only GIRLS wear skirts :na: :na: :na:

To be fair, Gus, what you say is accurate.

However, I was replying to someone else's off topic posting.

Also, it may be only girls wear skirts. But only girls' blouses think about wearing skirts then bottle out of it.:D

David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 02:03 PM
But I also don't see that as any kind of argument for your oft-repeated claim that competitions are evil.
Ahh, that's because they're two different discussions.

Discussion 1: competitive dancing is different technically from social dancing - which is mainly what this thread is about, and whether learning one will help or harm the other.

Discussion 2: competitive dancing is just Evil(TM) - which is not IMHO what this thread is about, but see Gus's views, I'm pretty much in agreement with all of his points there, although I'd add "Ego" to his list :)

There's no real room in this thread for the latter discussion (although it may be too late now...), so I've tried to keep in focus. One windmill at a time, that's my motto for today.


but there have been tons of posts along the lines ChrisA mentions. Maybe not quite saying "competition doesn't require lead/follow", but certainly saying "competition has very little to do with lead/follow", when IME most competitive dancers are superb leads or follows.
I'd agree - lead-and-follow is vital in both, it's one of the overlap skills as I said, and I'd defend that point-of-view. But blimey, don't expect me to remember other people's rantings, prejudices and opinions, I can barely keep track of my own most days...

Oh, and "IME"? Wossat mean then?

David Franklin
7th-November-2005, 02:14 PM
The only thought I have on the matter is that it seems to me that DJ is making sense in his differentiation between the skills. Being able to perfectly execute a routine does not necessarily make you a good social dancerThis sounds logical, but in fact the number of people in MJ who can perfectly execute a routine without being excellent freestyle dancers / competitors is vanishingly small. In fact, I can't think of anyone.

(From personal experience, you would have to be awesomely, gobsmackingly good at your routine to be able to do it without lead/follow. Possibly the likes of David/Lily, Will/Kate, Clayton/Janine, Phil/Yuko are that good. But they all are superb leads/follows, so...)

doc martin
7th-November-2005, 02:45 PM
That's obviously because it's freestyle and unchoreographed.
Or maybe it's because we're in front of an audience, and being awarded scores.
One or the other, anyway.
3606

:whistle:

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 03:37 PM
I'd agree that the competition skills you mention are different from social skills.

But I would say that, the allegedly social-only skills that you mention here are very transferable:



So, social-specific skills could be:

Floorcraft on a very busy floor (e.g. no aerials)
Adaptation to your partner’s style, lots of different times in one evening
Adaptation to your partner’s level, again lots of times


Floorcraft is just as important on the competition floor - since people are dancing bigger than they would socially, you still have to be very aware of what the others are doing.

And as for adapting to your partner's level and style, you've obviously not had to cope with the competition nerves that can mean that both partners respond quite differently to different situations - and that this can change during the day as the competition proceeds and you both get tired.

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 04:00 PM
.... tried to remember all the points made during the 27 times this subject has been debated

OK ... some of the bad things that come to mind are;

Ego-mania
Egos
Egos


I haven't encountered much of this. What do you mean, exactly? All the competition dancers I know are really nice, friendly, dance with anyone... I can only think of one person I'd put in the "snotty" category...




Couples putting each other through hell to get up to scratch


This doesn't have to be the case. Were you really horrible to Helen, or something? :devil: It did take a little getting used to things before Jayne and I worked really well together, but we achieved it. It's an emotional thing, the whole competition thing - it's not surprising that it takes some time to acclimatise.




Focus on shapes/flash moves rather than dancing


Oh come on... since when are shapes and flash moves not dancing??? You'd rule out practically the whole of ballet that way.. :confused:



Plethora of courses taught by someone who once got placed in a competition with 3 people


Plethora????? There are hardly any competition workshops. Is this claim rather exaggerated?

In any case, it not just competition-related courses that leave one thinking about the credentials of the teacher. But equally, plenty of courses are very good, taught by people without any competition success. The two aren't really connected, surely?




Movement away from just 'enjoying dance'


Rubbish. You can "just enjoy dance" any time, and all the competition dancers I know do exactly that.




Diminution of focus of musical interpretation


Now this I agree with. I wish it was much more at the forefront of things. This is a judging issue, of course, nothing to do with the intrinsic pros and cons of competitions.




Competitive spirit can counter 'friendly' spirit


This is a theoretical issue, not a real one, in my limited experience. People at competitions are very friendly, I find.

David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 04:17 PM
I'd agree that the competition skills you mention are different from social skills.
Look, if you're going to keep on agreeing with me, I'm going to get annoyed.


Floorcraft is just as important on the competition floor - since people are dancing bigger than they would socially, you still have to be very aware of what the others are doing.
To an extent, but I doubt most competitions are as crowded as (say) Hipsters or Hammersmith. Also, it's probably mainly different emphasis for floorcraft - ie. "Dance round the edges", "Don't get boxed in", etc etc. Rather than "Don't damage your partner, and watch out for the nutter dancers. Hopefully not too many competition dancers are nutters...


And as for adapting to your partner's level and style, you've obviously not had to cope with the competition nerves that can mean that both partners respond quite differently to different situations - and that this can change during the day as the competition proceeds and you both get tired.
Yeah, but they're not going to suddenly change height and weight, are they? And they're not going to vary to the same degree or level of ability and preferences as at a social event - I doubt you'll discover that your partner suddenly develops an intense dislike of drops, to give a topical example (well, not often, anyway).

jivecat
7th-November-2005, 05:03 PM
Why is it that every time anyone starts to actually discuss something on this forum, people with no interest in the thread have to appear and mock those that are participating?

And in particular, why do they have to pretend there's a fight going on when there isn't?

I think it would be far more dignified and befitting to your towering intellect to just ignore us. No, I really mean that!



Has the normal supply of intelligent conversation to be had on the singleton's sofa run out or something?

Oh, now that's cruelly barbed.

ChrisA
7th-November-2005, 05:25 PM
Look, if you're going to keep on agreeing with me, I'm going to get annoyed.

Well stop talking sense then, and I'll stop :D

If you just get back to making nonsensical assertions about why competitions are evil when in fact they are just one way of allowing people that like that kind of thing to measure themselves against their peers, in addition to (rather than instead of) all the social freestyle stuff that we all like, then I'll be happy to start disagreeing with you again.

The facts that, as is probably the case, a small minority of people are too up themselves and their competition thing for their own good, and that occasionally the friendly competition isn't as friendly as it might be (not that I've seen any of that myself), and that occasionally a competition couple might dance more with one another than with others, in the run-up to the comp, is neither here nor there.

If the accusations you level were the norm, then you'd have a point, but they aren't.

It's not fair to judge the whole scene by the worst that you can find in it. If you did that with the social dance scene it would be just as easy to argue that social dancing is evil...

TA Guy
7th-November-2005, 05:52 PM
:what: I thought Ceroc had said they were not releasing the DVD this year.

I got it from Jellybean.

David Bailey
7th-November-2005, 05:54 PM
Well stop talking sense then, and I'll stop :D
Give me a couple of minutes.


If you just get back to making nonsensical assertions about why competitions are evil ... blah...
I would, happily, but that's not what this thread is about - it's about whether learning by watching competition DVDs is a Good Thing, and what you can learn from both disciplines (social and comp dancing).

Admittedly, there are some minor disagreements, but I haven't really seen much to challenge my assertion that these are different disciplines. There's clearly some overlap, and we can dispute the amount of overlap, but that's about it.

So, going back to Ghost's original post:

So any recommendations for dvds which clearly show a couple having fun, freestyling rather than routining and dancing really well (in your opinion - I don't really care what the judges gave them). Or should I just avoid the whole thing?
IMO, I think it's useful to do this, but with a pinch of salt. Bear in mind, this is what that couple think looks good for them, and may not suit you, or social dancing at all for that matter.

That caveat aside, why not? It's always nice to watch dancing, if you're not in a position to actually do dancing.

DavidB
7th-November-2005, 07:13 PM
I haven't really seen much to challenge my assertion that these are different disciplines. There's clearly some overlap, and we can dispute the amount of overlap, but that's about it.They are the same discipline, just with a different emphasis.

In social dancing the emphasis is more on feel, irrespective of whether it looks good or not. In competitive dancing the emphasis is more on the visual side. It doesn't matter how much you like your favourite move - if it doesn't look good then what is the point.

Other differences are minor. Social dancing can be more selfish - most of the time the leaders have no idea what sort of moves each follower likes, so he just ends up doing what he likes. But in competitions you start getting significant feedback from the ladies.

In social dancing you get a choice when you hear a track - find a particular partner, just grab anyone, or sit out. In competitions you don't get that choice. You have to do the best you can, even if it is your least favourite track in the whole world.

You probably get to see more musical interpretation in competitions - for all people talk about 'feeling the music' in social dancing, you wouldn't guess it by watching people dance.

Other than that.... not much difference. You still lead & follow. You still dance to the same timing. You will see as many aerials and drops in one Hammersmith freestyle as you will get in an open final. The egos are the same no matter what the environment.

And anyone who has seen Clayton & Janine off the floor will know that the smiles aren't fake.

Gadget
8th-November-2005, 12:02 AM
Re: competition DVD's...
I discovered (while re-winding to look for a specific move that someone did that I thought "cool - how'd he do that?") that most moves look roughly the same going forward as they do going backwards... in fact several of the moves look much smoother and better backwards - got me wondering why and looking more closeley. {*}

I think that competitons allow partners a chance to work together and develop "new" stuff that can inspire the social dancer. I think that the practice, devotion and feedback gained in training for a competition is what improves dancers - the actual "competition" element is secondary to the skills learned.
If a "Social" dancer spent as much practice, had as much devotion and got the equivelent feedback, then they would improve dramatically. But then again, the "training" involved is not that 'social', and that's why they want to dance in the first place: it sort of eliminates the motivation.

{* I figured out that it's the 'slowdown' and gradual deceleration into a move BTW}

Nessa
8th-November-2005, 09:04 AM
Gosh, so many opinions, so little space to reply!

I very much like watching competitions, and have thoroughly enjoyed the ones I have participated in, but since my personal favourite categories are Dance With A Stranger and Battle Of The Sexes, you might like to take that into account when interpreting the following....

I like dancing with someone who shows awareness of lines and how our bodies look together when I am dancing. It gives me a lot of satisfaction knowing the dance looks good as well as feels good. And this is a skill picked up largely (though not entirely) through competition dancing and workshops.

I also think that musicality, in it's early stages, is more easily learned/ practiced/ what-have-you with someone who has similar goals, and that is often a competition partner too.

Personally I have known a few dancers, both male and female, whose lead/follow style is warped by almost constant practice with the one partner. Not to say they're not superb dancers, but that they are so used to the style of their partner, and know what to expect from each particular eyebrow shift, that their skills aren't so... transferable. Kind of like Twin-language.

I've also been known to state on the CMJ Forum my opinion that DWAS is the highest expression of Ceroc ability, in that there is no way you are performing choreographed moves and the only way to impress the judges is to dance well. Which means not leading your partner into moves you aren't sure she can perform. Which keeps it more ground-based and music-based. And fun. It's practically social dancing with an audience!

Um. Run out of opinions. Over to you guys (you should be waking up by now! :innocent: )

timbp
8th-November-2005, 09:40 AM
I like dancing with someone who shows awareness of lines and how our bodies look together when I am dancing.

I'm always aware of your body Nessa, and I often imagine how it looks with mine.

David Bailey
8th-November-2005, 10:27 AM
Personally I have known a few dancers, both male and female, whose lead/follow style is warped by almost constant practice with the one partner. Not to say they're not superb dancers, but that they are so used to the style of their partner, and know what to expect from each particular eyebrow shift, that their skills aren't so... transferable. Kind of like Twin-language.

I've also been known to state on the CMJ Forum my opinion that DWAS is the highest expression of Ceroc ability, in that there is no way you are performing choreographed moves and the only way to impress the judges is to dance well. Which means not leading your partner into moves you aren't sure she can perform. Which keeps it more ground-based and music-based. And fun. It's practically social dancing with an audience!
:yeah: X many.

I've found my soulmate - join with me, and we can unite the Galaxy... :flower:

Gadget
8th-November-2005, 02:16 PM
Naaa - I prefer to untie the Galaxy; much more fun :devil:

Stuart M
8th-November-2005, 02:36 PM
Question:

Are there any people out there that have competed, that now believe that competitions are evil?

If so, I'd love to hear from them.

Because to date, I haven't seen a single example of anyone that actually knows anything about it, slag off competitions and those that compete.

Count me as one. However, my opinion of competition dancing was formed by events that had nothing to do with whether I competed or not. Nor would I consider myself to be slagging off competitions, which are indeed good fun. I'd still consider them *evil, however.

No, my opinion was formed by the disproportionate number of times muggles and newbies asked me whether I competed, or how well I did in comps.

Thing is, I'd love to see Modern Jive become a mainstream activity. By mainstream, I mean that if you said to someone you were going dancing, then they'd assume you meant partner dancing, not shuffling around in a nightclub. However, for as long as competition dancing is seen as some sort of "ultimate objective" of partner dancing, it'll be very difficult for it to become mainstream. Huge numbers of people in society can be put off trying something, because of the pressure put on them to be good at it. The prominence of competitions in MJ suggests (to a muggles) that lots of MJers are very concerned about being good at it. Now you and I, being initiated, know this is generally untrue. The fact that in a Forum with thousands of members, only a few harp on about competitions proves that. But the casual observer, the person we want to see learn the basic moves, frequently doesn't see that.

So my view of competitions being *evil has nothing to do with the nature of competitors/organisers/organisations, who are all great :worthy: . Nor does my having competed make this viewpoint any better informed, because it's a viewpoint about the perception of competitions, not the competitions themselves. I try explaining to muggles that most MJers don't really give a toss about competitions - then off the BBC goes, revives SCD and oops, there's a whole new lumpen proletariat thinking partner dancing = competitions...


It's not fair to judge the whole scene by the worst that you can find in it. If you did that with the social dance scene it would be just as easy to argue that social dancing is evil.Which is sort of my point. Apologies if I appear to be quoting out of context.

Anyway, said all this before - just wanted to contribute it to this new debate :grin:

* Evil = A hindrance to the expansion of social dancing

ChrisA
8th-November-2005, 04:20 PM
No, my opinion was formed by the disproportionate number of times muggles and newbies asked me whether I competed, or how well I did in comps.
This is interesting. I don't think I've ever been asked by a muggle or a newbie whether I compete.

Can we get a view from others as to whether this is a frequent occurrence?



I try explaining to muggles that most MJers don't really give a toss about competitions - then off the BBC goes, revives SCD and oops, there's a whole new lumpen proletariat thinking partner dancing = competitions...

What's been the actual effect of all the TV coverage of partner dancing? Has it put people off, or have lots of people taken it up that might not have done otherwise?


Anyway, said all this before - just wanted to contribute it to this new debate :grin:

Thanks for adding a new slant to all this.

Your perspective is completely the opposite of mine, though - my feeling is that the existence of competitions, and the availability at least of seeing people that can do it well, is just as likely to attract some as it is to put off others. I remember very well when I started, how much I wanted to be good like the ones that were - and it spurred me on a great deal.

Similarly now... I see the competition dancers that are better than I'll ever be, and even knowing that, it still makes me want to get better than I am.

Ghost
8th-November-2005, 04:47 PM
This is interesting. I don't think I've ever been asked by a muggle or a newbie whether I compete.

Can we get a view from others as to whether this is a frequent occurrence?

I think that who you are has a big effect on this. People who know me would assume that I'm not interested in entering competitions.

As for beginners, I do occassionally get asked if I'm an Expert :rofl: which is very sweet :flower: and I think a reflection on how easy it is to look good doing Ceroc to someone who doesn't know it :clap: . I don't really have conversations with beginners though, just dance with them, and I'd expect "Do you dance in competitions?" to come a way into a conversation rather than in the short gap you have after you've introduced youself in the beginners class and are waiting for the teacher to start shouting out moves.

Take care,
Christopher

Franck
8th-November-2005, 04:51 PM
Question:

Are there any people out there that have competed, that now believe that competitions are evil?

If so, I'd love to hear from them.

Because to date, I haven't seen a single example of anyone that actually knows anything about it, slag off competitions and those that compete.

Whereas lots of people that don't compete, are staggeringly willing to talk a load of complete cobblers about it.You can add me to that list too. Not sure if taking part in competitions, supporting dancers, judging or helping out organizing has radically changed my views though as I've pretty much always thought that 'Competitions are evil'. I might even be the first person to bring it up in here.
Competitions have a detrimental effect on social dancing and sadly will put some people off from taking up any social dancing if they perceive that the dancing scene is geared towards competitions
I agree with many points made by DavidJames and StuartM.
Some of the techniques will be transferable, and at the top level (Open and Advanced winners / placings) dancers are probably accomplished Social as well as Competitive dancers, and able to do both superbly, but dancing outwardly is very different from dancing for your partner and for the feel of the dance rather than how it appears to an audience or a panel of Judges.
Competitions create bad feelings amongst those who take part, and don't do as well as they (or their friends) expected. This can have a detrimental effect on social dancing when people have fallen out as a result!

This is interesting. I don't think I've ever been asked by a muggle or a newbie whether I compete.

Can we get a view from others as to whether this is a frequent occurrence?I regularly get asked that question by 'Muggles', and the expectation is clearly that if I'm any good I must have competed and placed highly.

Your perspective is completely the opposite of mine, though - my feeling is that the existence of competitions, and the availability at least of seeing people that can do it well, is just as likely to attract some as it is to put off others. I remember very well when I started, how much I wanted to be good like the ones that were - and it spurred me on a great deal.I believe that there are (at least) 2 types of people, those that get motivated by the idea of competition and want to be able to measure progress against their peers, and those who are put off by competitions, and will then stay away from dancing as a result.

Whilst I enjoy a good show and display of expert dancing, and have always supported any dancers at all the competitions they have entered, I will always fight to the best of my abilities to make sure that competitions remain a small, easily avoidable part of the MJ scene, a fun distraction

LMC
8th-November-2005, 05:02 PM
< snips good stuff > Competitions have a detrimental effect on social dancing and sadly will put some people off from taking up any social dancing if they perceive that the dancing scene is geared towards competitions < snips more good stuff >
I thought Stuart M's post was excellent as well.

IMO, it partly 'hinges' on how you are introduced to dancing - i.e., whether you know anything about the 'scene' from friends or whether something else has triggered your decision to give it a go. The first few times I went to any dance classes, I went on my own - having decided to give it a go for my own reasons rather than friends' persuasion.

At that time, I was under the impression that it was all about getting good enough to compete - whether at local or national level - in the same way as many other sports are about competition - e.g. some people play tennis, football, whatever, for fun, but it can't be denied that the competitive element is far greater than in dancing (or is that just my muggle perception?...).

Of course I know now how wrong I was - and very pleased to be so. :nice:

DavidB
8th-November-2005, 05:32 PM
I've been asked the following over the last 20 years:

So what is Ceroc - hundreds of times
Where do you go - hundreds of times
Where can I go - hundreds of times
Are there many girls there - hundreds of times
Do you do drops - maybe a hundred times
Do you teach - tens of times
Do you perform - tens of times
Do you do aerials - tens of times
Do you do competitions - maybe ten times

In my opinion, dancing is not considered by the general public to be a sport, and they are surprised that there are any competitions outside of ballroom dancing.

I have not seen any change at all in this at any point in those 20 years.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2005, 05:47 PM
I suspect that it works like this:

when you start Ceroc, everyone looks like a god. Gradually you discern shades of ability and style amongst the dancers. At around the same time you hear whispers about competitions, and 'the Champs' and so on. It's not a great leap of imagination to go from "the dancers in competitions are good" to "all good dancers enter competitions". I think it takes a while for that notion to wear off.

Stuart M
8th-November-2005, 05:51 PM
This is interesting. I don't think I've ever been asked by a muggle or a newbie whether I compete.

Can we get a view from others as to whether this is a frequent occurrence?

My personal experience is that I've been asked "Do you compete?" (or "So how well do you do in competitions?" or something similar) straight out on four occasions. Straight out, as in it was the first thing they asked when I said that I do partner dancing, or they saw me dancing in a muggle environment.

On some other occasions people have said something like "What, like Come Dancing stuff?" when I explained what Ceroc was: their only point of reference to partner dancing was, therefore, a celebrity competitive dance TV programme. They had no idea that there was a social scene existing behind it, and that that social scene was much larger than the world of competitions.

Similarly now... I see the competition dancers that are better than I'll ever be, and even knowing that, it still makes me want to get better than I am.
I'd suggest that your attitude here, whilst being admirable, is not typical. If it were, a far higher proportion of dancers would compete regularly, I think?

LMC
8th-November-2005, 05:59 PM
As someone for whom everyone else looking like a god is really very recent - "what ESG said".

David Franklin
8th-November-2005, 06:10 PM
My personal experience is that I've been asked "Do you compete?" (or "So how well do you do in competitions?" or something similar) straight out on four occasions. Straight out, as in it was the first thing they asked when I said that I do partner dancing, or they saw me dancing in a muggle environment.It's probably happened close on 100% of the time I've danced in a muggle environment over the last few years. But surely all this does is tell you about muggle perceptions about dancing - they don't even know what Ceroc is, so they can't reasonably be affected by what competitions we hold.

LMC
8th-November-2005, 06:21 PM
As I was a muggle less than 6 months ago, I would tend to agree with David F - it's perception, it's unreasonable - but seems that 'tis there nonetheless.

And I thought the way my mind worked was weird... I'll just have to try harder :grin:

Will
8th-November-2005, 06:40 PM
I've been asked the following over the last 20 years:

So what is Ceroc - hundreds of times
Where do you go - hundreds of times
I meant for dancing dancing - hundreds of times
Where can I go - hundreds of times
Well there's no need to be like that - hundreds of times
Would you like fries with that - hundreds of times
David, why is the house looking like a bomb site - hundreds of times
David, what time did you come to bed last night - hundreds of times
David, why are there empty pizza boxes and beer bottles everywhere - hundreds of times
David, are you going to take those off before you go outside - hundreds of times
David, can you pick me up from the airport please - hundreds of times
Who's eaten all the pies - hundreds of times
Are you a Leeds Utd fan - hundreds of times
Are there many girls there - hundreds of times
Apart from on the pitch - hundreds of times
Do you do drops - maybe a hundred times
And roughly what percentage are intentional - maybe a hundred times
Do you teach - tens of times
Do you perform - tens of times
Do you do aerials - tens of times
Do you do competitions - maybe ten times
Do you sing - once


Perhaps you could now furnish us with the answers you typically gave to the above questions....

DavidB
8th-November-2005, 07:23 PM
Perhaps you could now furnish us with the answers you typically gave to the above questions....

So what is Ceroc - a type of drinking game
Where do you go - to the pub
I meant for dancing dancing - you can't dance and drink - you spill the beer
Where can I go - To buy an iron
Well there's no need to be like that - I'm trying to solve the worldwide crease epidemic centered on Wembley
Would you like fries with that - no, I would prefer another burger
David, why is the house looking like a bomb site - so that was where I left the Semtex
David, what time did you come to bed last night - I was waiting for the bed to come to me
David, why are there empty pizza boxes and beer bottles everywhere - full pizza boxes would be a waste of food
David, are you going to take those off before you go outside - I have to keep TwK's shirt company
David, can you pick me up from the airport please - Can I finish these Tim Tams first
Who's eaten all the pies - shouldn't that be "who has cooked all the pies"
Are you a Leeds Utd fan - of course
Are there many girls there - all the sexiest girls carry Leeds United sports bags
Apart from on the pitch - We haven't played Man City yet
Do you do drops - I'm not an Australian cricketer
And roughly what percentage are intentional - I'm not a South African cricketer
Do you teach - I deny all responsibility for that lift you attempted last night
Do you perform - not a question for polite company
Do you do aerials - yes, the ones you can't do
Do you do competitions - just to annoy David James
Do you sing - that is the most stupid question ever

Lory
8th-November-2005, 08:27 PM
This is interesting. I don't think I've ever been asked by a muggle or a newbie whether I compete.

Can we get a view from others as to whether this is a frequent occurrence?



Interestingly, hardly anyone's ever asked me if I compete when I tell them I do/dance Ceroc or modern Jive.

But, as soon as I mentioned that i've started Ballroom lessons, everyone's first question seems to be...Are you planning to compete :confused:

David Bailey
8th-November-2005, 08:52 PM
IBut, as soon as I mentioned that i've started Ballroom lessons, everyone's first question seems to be...Are you planning to compete :confused:
Well, are you? :innocent:

Lory
8th-November-2005, 09:13 PM
Well, are you? :innocent:
:rolleyes: Yes, can't you picture me? :devil:




Coughs... sensible answer, I have absolutely no plans to that conclusion yet!

Gadget
8th-November-2005, 09:39 PM
This is interesting. I don't think I've ever been asked by a muggle or a newbie whether I compete.

Can we get a view from others as to whether this is a frequent occurrence?
It is for me: I don't dance that much, and I would say I get asked that about once every month or two.

ChrisA
8th-November-2005, 09:53 PM
Interestingly, hardly anyone's ever asked me if I compete when I tell them I do/dance Ceroc or modern Jive.

But, as soon as I mentioned that i've started Ballroom lessons, everyone's first question seems to be...Are you planning to compete :confused:
Very interesting.

This very much supports Stuart M's comment to the effect that



then off the BBC goes, revives SCD and oops, there's a whole new lumpen proletariat thinking partner dancing = competitions...


It may well be that the publicity does make the public associate the dancing with the competitions.

But to make the jump to "Evil", in other words, a hindrance to the development of social dancing, is a big step indeed, and not at all substantiated.

I have yet to see any actual evidence at all, that comps are evil in this sense. There are plenty of unsubstantiated assertions and assumptions, but not much more, as far as I can see.

Various people (this one's Franck's, but there are quite a few like it) have asserted things like


Competitions have a detrimental effect on social dancing and sadly will put some people off from taking up any social dancing if they perceive that the dancing scene is geared towards competitions
... on several occasions, but I'd be interested if there is any actual evidence that this is the case, and even if there is, if the people that are put off really do outnumber the ones that are attracted by the sense of occasion, the assembled quality, and maybe even the possibility of being able to get good enough to have a go themselves.

Mostly, of course, I'm quite sure that beginner Cerocers don't think much about competitions at all. They go to the classes, do the freestyle, and have fun, and good luck to them. And by the time they're hooked, they're hardly going to give up just because they discover that competitions exist, now are they?

By the way, I don't mean for a moment that everyone should compete - far from it. To each his own, and if you don't fancy the effort/reward balance, there should never be any pressure to compete. It's the evangelical sense that comes over when people try and convince me that it's more than just "not their thing" but actually that it shouldn't be my thing either. Like happy-clappy religion, or the Mac. It's an evangelicalism that grates somehow.

Gadget
8th-November-2005, 10:27 PM
I have yet to see any actual evidence at all, that comps are evil in this sense. There are plenty of unsubstantiated assertions and assumptions, but not much more, as far as I can see.
I have yet to see any evedence supporting the fact that the music puts peple off, or that some 'close' moves put people off, or that letching and sharking put people off... it's all unsubstantiated assertions and assumptions, but not much more: We can't ask people why they aren't there because they are not there to ask!

So we look at what people who do come say, and extrapolate that since they had some preconceptions {:what:} then others may have had the same. It's just that those who have stayed have now been "enlightened".

clevedonboy
9th-November-2005, 01:21 PM
When Saxylady & I became regarded as "good dancers" at my first little learning pond, I was asked by many ladies if we were going to start entering competitions. i have no idea why - as far as I know nobody from that class ever has, but something made them think that "good dancers enter competitions". I've also been asked by some people who enter competitions, WHEN I'm going to start entering - they seem to think that I will change my mind when I tell them I'm not interested in the slightest.

Nessa
9th-November-2005, 01:42 PM
I'm always aware of your body Nessa, and I often imagine how it looks with mine....
......umm....

Sorry Franck, your Forum is deficient. There s NOTHING aong your smilies that shows just how shocked and bright red I am! :blush: doesn't even BEGIN to cover it.


*snip*
I've also been known to state on the CMJ Forum my opinion that DWAS is the highest expression of Ceroc ability, ....... */snip*

:yeah: X many.

I've found my soulmate - join with me, and we can unite the Galaxy...
Excellent! Now where were you when I was pining at the side of the dance floor at Southport, knowing only 3 faces in the place.....????


Naaa - I prefer to untie the Galaxy; much more fun.
Oh Gadg....:flower: ..... If I'd known you liked untying so much I'd have brought my corset along for you to puzzle out (perhaps it would look as good on you as CJ's skirts??) Next year then.....

Gadget
9th-November-2005, 02:04 PM
Oh Gadg....:flower: ..... If I'd known you liked untying so much I'd have brought my corset along for you to puzzle out (perhaps it would look as good on you as CJ's skirts??) Next year then.....
:devil::drool:
:( Torn now - do I look forward to dancing with you or untying you... decisions, decisions, decisions....

...:ping:.. both :D:devil: that would be interesting :devil:

PS: I've got my own "skirt" thanks - hmmm.... I think that I may give it an airing in a couple of weekends time.

David Bailey
9th-November-2005, 02:37 PM
Excellent! Now where were you when I was pining at the side of the dance floor at Southport, knowing only 3 faces in the place.....????
Hiding in the Latin room.

All the Cool Dancers were in the Blues Room, apparently. Or "The Cage", as I shall now call it...

Jeremy
18th-November-2005, 12:47 AM
I very much like watching competitions, and have thoroughly enjoyed the ones I have participated in...

And it was a delight to compete with you :nice:

I dance social much the same way I dance performance. Just less nerves :sick: Obviously some of the bigger moves cant be done till the floor is almost empty at the end of the night but I still dance to a front, interpret the music, insert freezes, and style things up. Its good practise for comps and it also feels good.

Jeremy
18th-November-2005, 12:51 AM
I believe that there are (at least) 2 types of people, those that get motivated by the idea of competition and want to be able to measure progress against their peers, and those who are put off by competitions, and will then stay away from dancing as a result.


I also think there are those who enjoy being on stage and who dont measure progress against their peers. Much like theatre actors who act in front of an audience for the love of it.

MartinHarper
18th-November-2005, 01:19 AM
I dance social much the same way I dance performance. [...] I still dance to a front, interpret the music, insert freezes, and style things up. Its good practise for comps and it also feels good.

Ok, interpreting the music, freezes, styling - I can absolutely see that they're valuable in both performance and social dancing. I wonder - would you do these things differently in social dancing? For example, I figure that people are more able to take musical risks in social dancing - messing up is a brief inconvenience, rather than contest-losing. Any truth to that?

Dancing to a front in social dancing, on the other hand, I struggle to understand. What are the benefits of dancing to a front, rather than dancing to my partner? If I was a good enough dancer to get an audience when social dancing, that audience is going to be scattered round me, not all in the same direction. In that circumstance, would dancing to a front make our dancing look better or worse?

Jeremy
18th-November-2005, 01:35 AM
Ok, interpreting the music, freezes, styling - I can absolutely see that they're valuable in both performance and social dancing. I wonder - would you do these things differently in social dancing? For example, I figure that people are more able to take musical risks in social dancing - messing up is a brief inconvenience, rather than contest-losing. Any truth to that?

I dont think I do them differently (other than lack of nerves). And just like in Social dancing you try to cover up/make use of/adjust from mistakes (missed leads etc) it is even more important in comp dancing.



Dancing to a front in social dancing, on the other hand, I struggle to understand. What are the benefits of dancing to a front, rather than dancing to my partner? If I was a good enough dancer to get an audience when social dancing, that audience is going to be scattered round me, not all in the same direction. In that circumstance, would dancing to a front make our dancing look better or worse?

Dancing to a front is really making sure when I open out a move (often when slowing it down or freezing) or doing a dip/drop that it is to an imaginary audience. I am still very much dancing to my partner just like 'normal' dancing but some moves, or ummm adjusted/interpretted moves i guess, have a definite front. Figure Eight Freeze, Wurltizer, most dips/drops etc (all Australian names - not sure if they are the same as the UK names)

It doesnt change the feel of the dance at all but it is good practise for the comps and if you do have some people watching you then you can dance to them.

David Franklin
18th-November-2005, 10:03 AM
Dancing to a front is really making sure when I open out a move (often when slowing it down or freezing) or doing a dip/drop that it is to an imaginary audience. I am still very much dancing to my partner just like 'normal' dancing but some moves, or ummm adjusted/interpretted moves i guess, have a definite front. Figure Eight Freeze, Wurltizer, most dips/drops etc (all Australian names - not sure if they are the same as the UK names)I've never seen you dance, so obviously have no idea whether this applies to you, but even very good dancers can take the "dance to the audience" approach too far. The #1 comment from Skippy Blair about the 2002 US Open (Swing):

Mugging the camera and the audience - Swing dancing is an "intimate conversation" between two people. It is a mini-drama, where the audience gets an inside peek at the interaction between two people playing a fascinating game with music. He tries something - She tries something - each reacting to the other's creativity. They laugh between themselves. We laugh with them. We are caught up in the interplay. We appreciate this connection between the music and these two people as they play their game - and we even get to hear the same music. FACT? Several performances included at least one partner who was looking straight ahead - or at the camera - or at the audience - and left us with a feeling that their partner was just not important. (This usually comes from inexperience - fright - or simply misguided direction.) - but the result is the same. Inappropriate focus can even put your "center" in the wrong place - actually lessening the impact of the performance.
In fact, if you do it right, "facing each other" can draw the audience in just as much or more so than facing front. It's similar to a speaker whispering to get an audience to be completely silent and attentive.

A really good example of this is the routine that won the 2003 US Open. Brent and Kellese are engrossed with each other and hardly look to the front during the whole song - as the audience, the feeling is we're 'eavesdropping' on their private conversation. And of course like any eavesdropper, we're completely drawn in and attentive. Contrast this with Jordan/Sarah who came second with a very "face front" routine.

N.B. I'm not saying "face front" is wrong - just that it's not the only way.

cerocmetro
18th-November-2005, 11:10 AM
Any recent competition footage of Simon and Lisa would be worth watching. They've got big moves, and they do them musically too.

Anything with Clayton and Janine in, or Will and Kate too, the same thing applies to, mostly.

It's been discussed endlessly before (so much so that I don't even have the energy to find a Harperlink to the thread), but mostly, even in competitions where the competitors have some big moves that look pretty choreographed, it is not the same as the showcase where the whole performance is choreographed. I don't know any competitors that actually do the same routine to a substantial part of a track, regardless of the music.

That said, if the moves you do fit the phrases, quite a lot of things can be made to fit quite a lot of music. But the real greats don't seem to do this.

This is not a mindless off thread plug in any way. So if you are reaching for the neg rep thingy, STOP it, no really I mean it this time:rolleyes:

I believe I can steer you in the right direction. The JiveMasters Video 2003 and DVD 2004 should be able to fit the bill on all of the above.:whistle:

You should also be able to order one tonight at Cheshunt. No need to rush the doors don't open til 8.15 when there will be a Salsa Class. If you are late don't panic, the venue now goes on to 12.45am. Lots of time to order you JiveMasters DVD or video so you can watch all of the above:flower:

Adam

Mary
18th-November-2005, 12:02 PM
Going back to the first post by Ghost which started this thread (yawn), I watch stuff from the US WCS competitions and get loads of inspiration from them, and helps remind me of posture, technique, and cool little accents one can do with simple embelllishments (I use the word 'simple' guardedly). I think this in conjunction with the classes and the odd private lesson really helps my, unsteady, progress.

As a result, I now have more frequent WCS social dances where I feel 'wow, that was a fantastic dance'. So for WCS anyway, I do feel that watching competition stuff can help one's progress in social dancing.

I don't think MJ competitions here really compare at all with the WCS competitions in the US, but it is worth taking a look at this year's Britrock competition where I feel that Simon and Lisa, and Simon Bowker and Keely are really bringing together the elements of fun, musicality, and good-looking moves, and doing it in such a way that they are sharing their dance with you rather than performing it at you.:worthy: :worthy: I really hope this comes across when I see it on DVD.
M

robd
19th-November-2005, 08:18 PM
I suspect that it works like this:

when you start Ceroc, everyone looks like a god. Gradually you discern shades of ability and style amongst the dancers.

:yeah: More donkey wisdom. I remember my first night at Ceroc - 19th Jan 2005 but, by god, it seems a lot longer ago now - and when the first freestyle started everyone else looked fantastic. My goal for the first 6 weeks was just to do one of those two handed moves I saw lots of men leading. In reality it was actually a simple teapot. Now, further down the line and freestyle is painful to watch sometimes. It just looks like carnage. Now, ok, this is a provincial ceroc night and you don't expect it to look like the lower room at Camber (where just about everyone did look like a god to me :worthy: ) but it does tie my experience to ESG's observation. By the way, I am sure my dancing looks just as awful as that I observe when sitting a track out so I don't say it as feeling superior, just in a Catchphrase 'if you see it say it' kind of a way.

Coming back to the topic of competitions I did ask one of the better young ladies at my local whether she had considered entering competitions. To this day, I am not sure why I asked.

Robert