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Clive Long
28th-October-2005, 09:35 AM
With the triumphant introduction of "Land of a 1,000 dances" and "Geeks' Corner" to the CerocScotland Forum, should we not introduce a Pedants' (nice use of apostrophe there Clive) Corner?

Some suggested topics for endless debate
*******************************

Do you feel safe when you use Fabulous or Fantastic?

Correct use of:


Loose/lose
Affect/Effect
There/their
Uninterested/disinterested

Should we revert to the spelling of Chaucer or Beowulf?

Use of the semi-colon. Is it a relic of empire?

Is semi-colon hyphenated?

Punctuation marks in direct speech, In or Out?

Split infinitives.

Prepositional phrases. A lost art.

The comma. Why is it so small?

The subjunctive. Should we use it or is it best left ignored lest it do us harm?

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 09:42 AM
I'm afraid it wouldn't work Clive. For you to perform your pedal antics you need a straight man (or woman). It would be like Morecambe without Wise. Sad, sad,sad.

LMC
28th-October-2005, 09:46 AM
Correct use of:


Loose/lose
Affect/Effect
There/their
Uninterested/disinterested





too/to
off/of
bear/bare


although I don't know why I'm posting... I'm so pedantic that I've been known to take a biro to shop signs. But life's too short, I normally can't be a**ed any more.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-October-2005, 09:52 AM
...I've been known to take a biro to shop signs....She's like a clockwork bunny - just wind her up and let her go.

Also

less/fewer
compliment/complement
your/you're
its/it's

ducasi
28th-October-2005, 10:27 AM
Good thread Clive!! :D

Some suggested topics for endless debate Thank-you for this opportunity...

Do you feel safe when you use Fabulous or Fantastic?Pretty much. But the word literally... That's a bug-bear.

Correct use of:

Loose/lose
Affect/Effect
There/their
Uninterested/disinterested

Should we revert to the spelling of Chaucer or Beowulf? Spelling is as the world makes it. Although there is a standard "correct" way to spell most words, I try hard not to frown too much when I see a word spelt incorrectly.

Use of the semi-colon. Is it a relic of empire?

Is semi-colon hyphenated? In a cartoon in the Metro last week two guys were saying how they never realised at the time, but once they left school they never used the semicolon again.

I will use it occasionally, hopefully correctly. As to the hyphen... It doesn't greatly matter, but my shorter oxford dictionary spells it as semicolon, and doesn't offer the hyphenated form as an alternative.

Punctuation marks in direct speech, In or Out? Depends on context, logic and aesthetics. No hard and fast rules here for me.

Split infinitives.Not to ever be sniffed at. Just so long as it doesn't feel awkward.

Prepositional phrases. A lost art.

The comma. Why is it so small?

The subjunctive. Should we use it or is it best left ignored lest it do us harm? Whatever...

Looks like I'm losing the will to be pedantic. Maybe it's too early in the morning.

David Franklin
28th-October-2005, 10:54 AM
Some suggested topics for endless debate
*******************************Chains - gold, silver or platinum?
Crosses - only for Christians?

Oops! You said pedants... Never mind... :blush:

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 10:54 AM
Looks like I'm losing the will to be pedantic. Maybe it's too early in the morning.
Right, let me try to liven you up a bit then. :grin:

Good thread Clive!! Two exclamation marks? It may be cool, but it isn't English and it is superfluous, unless the sentence ends with a name such as Yahoo!.

Thank-you for this opportunity... Is a hyphen appropriate here? I think not.

That's a bug-bearNor here.

opportunity...
literally...
hyphen...
Whatever...An ellipsis at the end of a sentence requires a full stop, making four dots.

Well I reckon that's enough to get you kick started this morning. If you need your blood pressure raising at any other time, please feel free to contact me.

LMC
28th-October-2005, 11:05 AM
Right, let me try to liven you up a bit then. :grin:

It's working! :clap:


Two exclamation marks? It may be cool, but it isn't English and it is superfluous, unless the sentence ends with a name such as Yahoo!.

They
they aren't

and

they are

surely? :devil:

I would also argue that two exclamation marks following a sentence written in English are also English - just not correctly construed English.

Pedantry... I love it really.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-October-2005, 11:23 AM
My turn.
I would also argue that two exclamation marks following a sentence written in English are also English - just not correctly construed English.It's correctly construed. It's incorrectly constructed.

LMC
28th-October-2005, 11:35 AM
Same Latin root, same difference, surely? Grammar is usually spoken of as being construed rather than constructed. (Yes, I know, that last sentence wasn't correctly construed either.)

Don't care quite enough to Google for it today, it's Friday (hooray)!

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 11:36 AM
It's working! :clap:
I tried to stop this before it got started. Somehow I knew it wouldn't work :sigh: .

They
they aren't

and

they are

surely? :devil:

I would also argue that two exclamation marks following a sentence written in English are also English - just not correctly construed English.

Pedantry... I love it really.
Let me clarify. In using 'it' I was referring to the use of two exclamation marks. So what I meant was ....

The use of two exclamation marks may be cool, but it isn't English and it is superfluous....

I would plead guilty to bad writing as my meaning was not made clear, but innocent of bad grammar (in this case, he says quickly, just in case).

Also

* less/fewer
* compliment/complement
* your/you're
* its/it's
And

* where/there
* under/the stair
* under/the stair
* right/there

LMC
28th-October-2005, 11:44 AM
AAARGH, I'm going to have that going through my head all day now!

Whitebeard
28th-October-2005, 12:02 PM
..... a**ed .....



English?

David Bailey
28th-October-2005, 12:05 PM
Here's a good one - the rules of sarcasm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4384734.stm).

Hah, yeah, like I'd ever listen to that.

Dreadful Scathe
28th-October-2005, 12:07 PM
hear / here

I would have corrected the sign next to a collection tin inside starbucks in Edinburgh if it hadn't been behind plastic - "collection for the [insert name here] handicapped center"

loose/lose and your/you're are the most annoying I think :)
gah! :)

Clive Long
28th-October-2005, 12:11 PM
<< snip >>
And

* where/there
* under/the stair
* under/the stair
* right/there
A little mouse with cloooogs on.

Well I declare,

Going clip, clippity clop on the stair,

That's Where?

Right there.

Oh yeah.
***************

Simple pleasures
***************
Had enough LMC? Tell us where you hid the money. Eh? Eh?

ChrisA
28th-October-2005, 12:11 PM
AAARGH, I'm going to have that going through my head all day now!
Vastly preferable to

"If I had a million dollars...."

Oops... :eek:

ChrisA
28th-October-2005, 12:14 PM
Dunno if it's still there, but the Fulham Ceroc noticeboard, usually to be found around the bar area, used to have a poster at the top saying:

Ceroc New's

ChrisA
28th-October-2005, 12:18 PM
to be found around the bar area
.. and before anyone gets on my case, of course, I meant

"to be found in the bar area".

By the same token, "under the circumstances" gets my goat. I think I deserve an award for that, since you need to know a little Latin even to understand why it's wrong ...

LMC
28th-October-2005, 12:19 PM
Ah, the grocer's apostrophe

I thought the general rule for apostrophes was "if in doubt, leave it out", not "if in doubt, put it in".

I'll let someone else pick up the innuendo, I'm busy

Lynn
28th-October-2005, 12:31 PM
A little mouse with cloooogs on.

Well I declare,

Going clip, clippity clop on the stair,Oh! That brings back memories - my first dancing performance was to that song. I was one of those little mice - pink tutu, pink satin mouse ears - aged 4!

(And I know there is a risk that my sentence will now be dissected for mistakes. :blush: Do I care? :whistle: )

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 12:51 PM
Oh! That brings back memories - my first dancing performance was to that song. I was one of those little mice - pink tutu, pink satin mouse ears - aged 4!

(And I know there is a risk that my sentence will now be dissected for mistakes. :blush: Do I care? :whistle: )
Well,this is not so much a dissection for mistakes, more a complaint that the post was off topic. I mean, is it appropriate to discuss dance in the Pedant's corner?:confused:

You could, of course, make up for this by posting a picture of yourself in said costume. It's OK if you haven't got the original, a reinactment would be fine :whistle:

Icey
28th-October-2005, 12:55 PM
a reinactment would be fine :whistle:

Would that be a re-enactment?
Oh dear, have I got the hypen in the right place?

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 12:58 PM
Here's a good one - the rules of sarcasm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4384734.stm).

Hah, yeah, like I'd ever listen to that.
Excellent article DJ. I particularly liked the bit in the opening paragraph....

The trick is to use sarcasm intelligently, and sparingly.
I suppose that, as in dance, when you are an expert you know when you can safely ignore the rules? :whistle:

Lynn
28th-October-2005, 12:58 PM
Well,this is not so much a dissection for mistakes, more a complaint that the post was off topic. I mean, is it appropriate to discuss dance in the Pedant's corner?:confused:I asked for that! :rofl:


You could, of course, make up for this by posting a picture of yourself in said costume. It's OK if you haven't got the original, a reinactment would be fine :whistle: I was hoping no-one would say that. :blush: There is photographic evidence somewhere and I do still have the tutu (I think), but its probably a bit small.:whistle:

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 01:00 PM
Would that be a re-enactment?
Oh dear, have I got the hypen in the right place?
It would be, unless I have a little something about reins. :devil:

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 01:03 PM
I was hoping no-one would say that. :blush: There is photographic evidence somewhere and I do still have the tutu (I think), but its probably a bit small.:whistle:
And the problem with that is...? What do have to lose? Except your dignity, sanity, self respect....

Lynn
28th-October-2005, 01:05 PM
I think I shall leave the wearing of a pink tutu to UP - he does it with so much more flair!


What do have to lose? I take it you meant 'What do you have to lose?'?

Back on thread! I'm a pendant! :rofl:

doc martin
28th-October-2005, 01:37 PM
I think I shall leave the wearing of a pink tutu to UP - he does it with so much more flair!

I take it you meant 'What do you have to lose?'?

Back on thread! I'm a pendant! :rofl:
You see the things I do to make you happy?

I'll leave the comment about the pendant hanging.

Baruch
29th-October-2005, 03:50 AM
Excellent article DJ. I particularly liked the bit in the opening paragraph....
I'm sure you meant to use a colon after the word 'paragraph', didn't you?

Anyway, things could be.
Worse and we could all.
Be putting full stops in.
At the end of every single.
Line like some of the children.
I've taught have been in.
The habit of doing.

So, does anyone fancy being pedantic about the punctuation in my sig?:devil:

Piglet
29th-October-2005, 04:11 PM
הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים אָמַר קֹהֶלֶת, הֲבֵל הֲבָלִים הַכֹּל הָבֶל

Well I will query the use of that comma where it is - but it depends which planet you come from I guess?:wink:

El Salsero Gringo
29th-October-2005, 06:55 PM
There's certainly no comma in the original - but then there's no punctuation in the original at all.

Baruch
29th-October-2005, 10:05 PM
Well I will query the use of that comma where it is - but it depends which planet you come from I guess?:wink:
That particular quote is from a 'planet' called Israel. True, it was written several thousand years ago, and as ESG so rightly said, there was no punctuation in it at all originally, so a case could be made for omitting it. However, the comma does make sense there. :yum:

DavidY
30th-October-2005, 11:09 AM
Question:

I suspect it's not correct to say (as I did on another thread) "Marc DJ'd for some of the time"? Since DJ is an abbreviation I might get away with an apostrophe but perhaps not... :blush:

What's the correct way to write this?

*awaits people answering the above question with "this" ...*

ChrisA
30th-October-2005, 11:54 AM
What's the correct way to write this?

*awaits people answering the above question with "this" ...*
I trust, on this thread, no one would make such a trivial error.

Had you written "What's the correct way to write 'this'?", then obviously, the answer would have been:

this

However, you didn't, so the correct answer to your question is:

"What's the correct way to write this?"

I think "DJ'd" is Ok. Once you've gone as far as to allow "to DJ" as a verb, and it would be truly anal not to, there has to be a way of forming the participle.

DJd and DJed both look a bit weird to me, so I'd stick with DJ'd. As you say, it is an abbreviation...

Baruch
30th-October-2005, 12:03 PM
I think "DJ'd" is Ok. Once you've gone as far as to allow "to DJ" as a verb, and it would be truly anal not to, there has to be a way of forming the participle.

DJd and DJed both look a bit weird to me, so I'd stick with DJ'd. As you say, it is an abbreviation...
DJ'd, DJd and DJed all look wrong to me. The term would be acceptable in colloquial speech, of course, but in written English all the above forms are incorrect.

"DJ" is an abbreviation of "Disc Jockey", which is certainly not a verb.

It would be more correct to say that someone "acted as DJ" or "was the DJ".

ChrisA
30th-October-2005, 01:25 PM
DJ'd, DJd and DJed all look wrong to me. The term would be acceptable in colloquial speech, of course, but in written English all the above forms are incorrect.

"DJ" is an abbreviation of "Disc Jockey", which is certainly not a verb.

It would be more correct to say that someone "acted as DJ" or "was the DJ".
"Jockey" is given in the COD as a noun, obviously, but also as a verb, meaning "handle or manipulate in a skilful manner".

So if you want to object to "disc jockey" as a verb, then presumably the debate has to become one about split infinitives, as in "to disc jockey", as opposed to "to jockey the discs".

Can you split an infinitive with a noun, as well as with an adverb?

I guess I have... :eek:

ducasi
30th-October-2005, 10:00 PM
I suspect it's not correct to say (as I did on another thread) "Marc DJ'd for some of the time"? Since DJ is an abbreviation I might get away with an apostrophe but perhaps not... :blush:

What's the correct way to write this?
Using apostrophes in this manner is standard practice, although in your case it is showing that it is attaching a suffix to an abbreviation, and at the same time standing in for the missing "e". I'd write: DJ'ed.

Baruch
31st-October-2005, 12:50 AM
Using apostrophes in this manner is standard practice, Actually, it's not. It may be common practice, but it's certainly not standard.

ducasi
31st-October-2005, 01:04 AM
Actually, it's not. It may be common practice, but it's certainly not standard.
Standard is as standard does.

DianaS
1st-November-2005, 10:45 AM
Standard is as standard does.
I agree, and would just like to add that had it not been for a certain Dr Johnson there wouldn't be this sad state of affairs... he was of course not only misguided but actually mentally ill and quite deranged, incombant on an advanced state of syphilis I believe which was precipitated by an unhealthy interest in both prepositions and the positioning of that accursed comma.

Healthy minds don't dwell too deeply in these matters:)

Baruch
1st-November-2005, 06:16 PM
Healthy minds don't dwell too deeply in these matters:)
I've never claimed to have a healthy mind. I'm a teacher, for goodness' sake! An unhinged mental state is a prerequisite for the job!

DianaS
2nd-November-2005, 11:04 PM
I've never claimed to have a healthy mind. I'm a teacher, for goodness' sake! An unhinged mental state is a prerequisite for the job!

get a grip:mad: :rofl:

Ghost
2nd-November-2005, 11:22 PM
Split infinitives
A friend got docked 5% from his write up of a science experiment for this.
"The liquid was slowly poured into the beaker"
instead of "The liquid was poured slowly into the beaker"

Science - not English! :eek: Scientists can barely spell properly (except biologists), let alone do pedantic grammar :angry:

We (quietly) asked the rest of the class and no-one had a clue what split infinitives were. I can only remember which way around the quote was thanks to Star Trek "boldy going"

Take care,
Christopher

ChrisA
2nd-November-2005, 11:34 PM
Take care,
Christopher
Ok, you've done it...

You've posted on the Pedants' thread.

So I can ask now...

Why do you keep telling us all to take care?????????????????????

Pedantically speaking, I'd bet you don't really care one way or the other whether the entire forum population takes care or not.

If you don't, then stop it!!!!!

(but you should still stop using signals :devil: )

Ghost
2nd-November-2005, 11:56 PM
Ok, you've done it...

You've posted on the Pedants' thread.

So I can ask now...
:rofl: Really, you could have asked any time, I wouldn't have minded :cheers:


Why do you keep telling us all to take care?????????????????????

There are basically three ways I sign things.
Take care
Be Well
Dance in Beauty

I'm fond of "Go your way in safety" but have only ever used it once.


Pedantically speaking, I'd bet you don't really care one way or the other whether the entire forum population takes care or not.
Cool, what did you bet? I'm a really mellow guy. You know when someone says "Make a wish"
I always go with "World Peace" :cheers:

So yes, I actually do care about all of you. It's unconditional too ~ Neg rep me till my ears bleed and I'll still "wish you well" (http://www.yogabasics.com/meditation/metaMeditation.html)



If you don't, then stop it!!!!!
But I do so...


(but you should still stop using signals :devil: )
If it helps any, the only signals I use are for the Pretzel and Neckbreak and I'm working on ways to transition straight into them from other moves. Any suggestions are welcome, but it's probably safer to pm me..


Well,this is not so much a dissection for mistakes, more a complaint that the post was off topic. I mean, is it appropriate to discuss dance in the Pedant's corner?
Dance in beauty,
Christopher

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-November-2005, 12:01 AM
Split infinitives
A friend got docked 5% from his write up of a science experiment for this.
"The liquid was slowly poured into the beaker"
instead of "The liquid was poured slowly into the beakerHow on earth can it be a split infinitive, when it's not an infinitive? It's a past participle being used to form a past historic verb form in the passive voice. Dock that science teacher a month's pay and tell him to stick to science and leave the English lessons to someone else.

ChrisA
3rd-November-2005, 12:03 AM
If it helps any, the only signals I use are for the Pretzel and Neckbreak and I'm working on ways to transition straight into them from other moves.

Well you're making progress.... :wink:

But I promise you that neither move requires a signal.



Dance in beauty,

Er thank you. You will, maybe, when you stop using the stinkin' signals...

:D

Ghost
3rd-November-2005, 12:06 AM
How on earth can it be a split infinitive, when it's not an infinitive? It's a past participle being used to form a past historic verb form in the passive voice. Dock that science teacher a month's pay and tell him to stick to science and leave the English lessons to someone else.
Pity I didn't know you back then. The last I heard she'd moved to France... heaven help them.
Take care,
Christopher

Ghost
3rd-November-2005, 12:09 AM
Well you're making progress.... :wink:

Good to know :cheers:


Er thank you. You will, maybe, when you stop using the stinkin' signals...

:D
:rofl:

Be Well,
Christopher

Baruch
3rd-November-2005, 01:30 AM
get a grip:mad: :rofl:
:mad: and :rofl: ? I'm confused.

Maybe I should have put a :whistle: or a :wink: with my earlier post.

DianaS
3rd-November-2005, 10:51 AM
:mad: and :rofl: ? I'm confused.

Maybe I should have put a :whistle: or a :wink: with my earlier post.
Your talking to an ex-lecturer in psychology
Put what you like, I'm just barking wroooof wwwwwrooooooooof!!!

DianaS
3rd-November-2005, 03:59 PM
Help. Is criteria single or plural?
ie this there one criteria and many criterion?

David Bailey
3rd-November-2005, 04:23 PM
Help. Is criteria single or plural?
Plural, technically.


ie this there one criteria and many criterion?
The other way round. Although technical usage and common usage differ, and I think people now use "criteria" for single and plural.

And I still wince when I hear people say "referendums" - and this is on Radio 4... :mad:

DianaS
3rd-November-2005, 04:27 PM
Thanks David:flower:
It doesn't seem to say in my online dictionary!:nice:

DavidY
3rd-November-2005, 07:31 PM
Our corporate style guide is now insisting that "data" should be treated as a singular.

So we should say "the data was accurate" instead of "the data were accurate". :sick:

I believe the latter is technically correct but not common usage.

El Salsero Gringo
4th-November-2005, 01:41 AM
Plural, technically.


The other way round. Although technical usage and common usage differ, and I think people now use "criteria" for single and plural. They do? Slap them down with a kipper. What's wrong with 'criterion'? It's a beautiful word.
And I still wince when I hear people say "referendums" - and this is on Radio 4... :mad:Wasn't that part of Greg Dyke's influence? Or Birtism? One loses track.

David Bailey
4th-November-2005, 09:06 AM
What's wrong with 'criterion'? It's a beautiful word.
Yes, sounds all science-fictiony doesn't it :)

But, it's a dying usage.


Wasn't that part of Greg Dyke's influence? Or Birtism? One loses track.
Don't ask me, I just listen to the stuff.

I only really noticed it a few months ago with all the kerfuffle about the European referenda on the EU constitution - and the most depressing thing from that I remember is that they were interviewing a Dutch politician who said "referenda" and all the British interviewees said "referendums". :tears:

As for the "data" thing, I'm not quite so pedantic (am I in the right place?), simply because it sounds weird to me, to say "the data are...". I know, it's subjective, but you have to go with the flow with a language like English. Also, you could just about make a case that "data" is short for "a group of information", so can be used in the singular.

Oooh, maybe I am in the right place after all :)

Saxylady
4th-November-2005, 07:43 PM
Also, you could just about make a case that "data" is short for "a group of information", so can be used in the singular.


That's how I'd see it. But what would I know, having been educated in the 60's and 70's, with no formal grammar teaching, I have to go by what feels right - wouldn't dare be pedantic about anything without looking it up first (at least someone taught me how to do that!).

And Data on Star Trek was quite singular.

Baruch
4th-November-2005, 11:51 PM
having been educated in the 60's and 70's, with no formal grammar teaching, I have to go by what feels right
I can relate, and isn't it annoying? Most of what I know about grammar and spelling is despite my education, not because of it. For someone from my generation, I think I have a fairly good grasp of both, but I'm in the minority. In fact, even among primary school teachers I think I'm in the minority, which is a bit worrying!

Whitebeard
5th-November-2005, 12:03 AM
I can relate, and isn't it annoying? Most of what I know about grammar and spelling is despite my education, not because of it. For someone from my generation, I think I have a fairly good grasp of both, but I'm in the minority. In fact, even among primary school teachers I think I'm in the minority, which is a bit worrying!
But you and Saxylady are both well into "self-expression", right????

Baruch
5th-November-2005, 12:10 AM
But you and Saxylady are both well into "self-expression", right????
Eh? Not sure I follow you.

Whitebeard
5th-November-2005, 12:17 AM
Also, you could just about make a case that "data" is short for "a group of information", so can be used in the singular.

How about a 'data-set' ? Invariably in discussions, treatises, etc., the subject is the conclusions which can be drawn from a data-set, not the individual pieces of information (datum) within that data-set. Thus, singular reads much more easily and colloquialically (?). I hope those mad scientists can be so persuaded and abandon their pedanticism.

Whitebeard
5th-November-2005, 12:27 AM
Eh? Not sure I follow you.
A bit like the pretended absence of footwork in Ceroc. Young minds, unencumberred by rules of spelling and grammar, could be creative and express themselves in their own way.

No matter that the absence of structure meant that others didn't know what on earth they were on about.

Baruch
5th-November-2005, 12:34 AM
A bit like the pretended absence of footwork in Ceroc. Young minds, unemcumberred by rules of spelling and grammar, could be creative and express themselves in their own way.

No matter that the absence of structure meant that others didn't know what on earth they were on about.
That never actually seemed to be the case, in my experience. Children (and adults) need to know the framework in which to express themselves in order to do so fully.

Think of it like learning Modern Jive. At first you learn the basic stuff like arm tension, leading/following and moves, moves, moves. That's like learning spelling and grammar. It's only when you've been through all those things that you eventually learn to dance expressively. True, you could just do your own thing, but with a proper grounding in the basics it looks and feels a lot better.

Whitebeard
5th-November-2005, 12:56 AM
That never actually seemed to be the case, in my experience. Children (and adults) need to know the framework in which to express themselves in order to do so fully.

Think of it like learning Modern Jive. At first you learn the basic stuff like arm tension, leading/following and moves, moves, moves. That's like learning spelling and grammar. It's only when you've been through all those things that you eventually learn to dance expressively. True, you could just do your own thing, but with a proper grounding in the basics it looks and feels a lot better.
I agree with you on all this. But wasn't there a period, which Saxylady alludes to, when basic learning went by the board and the emphasis was on the child's 'self-expression'. Employers are still bemoaning the lack of basic skills in many graduates. You, yourself, said, "Most of what I know about grammar and spelling is despite my education, not because of it."

Anyway, my feet have now learnt their own bad habits which no amount of 'post-training' is likely to alter.

Baruch
5th-November-2005, 01:07 AM
But wasn't there a period, which Saxylady alludes to, when basic learning went by the board and the emphasis was on the child's 'self-expression'.
Yes, and people my age are still paying the price for it.

Every so often in education a new fad comes in and everyone jumps onto the bandwagon, only to realise eventually, in some cases, that it's not really all that good. Either that, or it is useful, but not the "cure-all" solution that we were promised it would be.

Phonics schemes and other ideas to teach children how to read come and go all the time. The one I personally hate the most (and I'm sure many primary teachers would agree) is Letterland, in which every letter was drawn as a cartoon character with a stupid name. I still get children calling the letter K "Kicking King", and they haven't been subjected to Letterland for five years or more. Aaaargh!

Saxylady
5th-November-2005, 10:06 AM
Yes, and people my age are still paying the price for it.

The one I personally hate the most (and I'm sure many primary teachers would agree) is Letterland, in which every letter was drawn as a cartoon character with a stupid name. I still get children calling the letter K "Kicking King", and they haven't been subjected to Letterland for five years or more. Aaaargh!


Yes - I had to use that in my brief spell (!) as a primary teacher. Wasn't that the one that had Dippy Duck? Quarrelsome Queen?? (Oh no! It's like realising you can remember all the lyrics to a bad song.) And did it help them to read any better? No more effective than Roger Red-Hat and friends (or Peter Purple-Head as one child would insist on calling him).

Ooh - that got me in rant mode.

David Bailey
5th-November-2005, 11:26 AM
How about a 'data-set' ?
Technically, fine, but let's face it, the English language will go in its own sweet path despite any reservations or problems we may have with its development.

One of the hardest things to learn as a professional writer is that there are no real rules for English grammar, or even English vocabulary for that matter - just common and uncommon usage, relevant to different audiences and times. And the language evolves and changes rapidly, and you need to keep up with it if you want to communicate effectively.


colloquialically (?)
Despite my above-stated flexibility, I'm kind of hoping that one never escapes into the wild... :rolleyes:


Think of it like learning Modern Jive. At first you learn the basic stuff like arm tension, leading/following and moves, moves, moves. That's like learning spelling and grammar. It's only when you've been through all those things that you eventually learn to dance expressively. True, you could just do your own thing, but with a proper grounding in the basics it looks and feels a lot better.
I think (and I'm sure I've stated) that dancing Modern Jive is like using English - fluid, evolving, adaptive and grabbing many of the best bits from other dances (languages).

But learning to dance with Modern Jive is like learning to communicate by talking to your friends - you'll get the basics, but it's really no substitute for a proper grounding in the key disciplines.

Boy, I knew I should have stayed clear of this thread...

Baruch
5th-November-2005, 01:10 PM
Yes - I had to use that in my brief spell (!) as a primary teacher. Wasn't that the one that had Dippy Duck? Quarrelsome Queen?? (Oh no! It's like realising you can remember all the lyrics to a bad song.) And did it help them to read any better? No more effective than Roger Red-Hat and friends (or Peter Purple-Head as one child would insist on calling him).
Yes, that's the one. I hate it with a fiery passion. My wife, who is a classroom assistant, still has to use it at her school. She, needless to say, isn't impressed.

Maybe we should rename some of the Letterland letters: Empty Education, Konfused Kid, Fallible Fad or Pointless Prattle, anyone?

Saxylady
5th-November-2005, 02:10 PM
But learning to dance with Modern Jive is like learning to communicate by talking to your friends - you'll get the basics, but it's really no substitute for a proper grounding in the key disciplines.

Boy, I knew I should have stayed clear of this thread...

Hmm, I read that grammatical rules were imposed on English at at relatively late stage, but presumably it makes it easier for mass-communication to function.

After getting quite confused about the 'correct' footwork for the First Move (let's not go there...) I find a reassuring security in the stricter footwork required for swing dancing.

Saxylady
5th-November-2005, 02:17 PM
Maybe we should rename some of the Letterland letters: Empty Education, Konfused Kid, Fallible Fad or Pointless Prattle, anyone?

Ready for your next OFSTED??

(Do you have Nervous-Breakdown-Week in Wales?)

ducasi
5th-November-2005, 02:56 PM
Hmm, I read that grammatical rules were imposed on English at at relatively late stage, but presumably it makes it easier for mass-communication to function.Grammar is derived from any language by observation of how it works. As a child you don't learn English by learning the grammar, and you can be an expert without actually knowing all the so-called rules.

Saxylady
5th-November-2005, 03:11 PM
Grammar is derived from any language by observation of how it works. As a child you don't learn English by learning the grammar, and you can be an expert without actually knowing all the so-called rules.


Ar...

Baruch
5th-November-2005, 09:15 PM
Ready for your next OFSTED??

(Do you have Nervous-Breakdown-Week in Wales?)
We don't have OFSTED, but we do have Estyn, the Welsh equivalent. We were inspected in November last year, and came out with a very good report at the end of it. :clap:

Mind you, the inspectors ripped us apart before they told us we were good, and we felt very demoralised. They certainly didn't seem to have much of a concept of professional courtesy. :angry: Contrast that with my last inspection (in a different school) when we came out with a similarly glowing report, but the inspection team were the model of professionalism and courtesy. Attitude really does matter.

(And no, we didn't do Letterland in either school!)

LMC
23rd-December-2005, 11:02 AM
I've seen this so many times recently that I can't take it any more.

It's "would HAVE" and "could HAVE".

NOT 'of'.

Ah, that's better.

ducasi
23rd-December-2005, 11:14 AM
It's "would HAVE" and "could HAVE".

NOT 'of'.
Yeah, that annoys me to, though it's understandable in that they're really saying "would've" and "could've", with the "'ve" pronounced pretty much the same way as "of".

Doesn't make it any less wrong though.

azande
23rd-December-2005, 11:16 AM
While we are at it, it is "you are" or "you're" not "your".

doc martin
23rd-December-2005, 12:41 PM
While we are at it, it is "you are" or "you're" not "your".
You're assessment of this common error is masterful :worthy:

LMC
23rd-December-2005, 12:43 PM
Yeah, that annoys me to, ...

When it means "as well/also", it's too :innocent: :wink:

Icey
23rd-December-2005, 12:56 PM
The one that always gets to me is the incorrect use of their, there or they're.

ducasi
23rd-December-2005, 12:59 PM
When it means "as well/also", it's too :innocent: :wink:
Yeah, that annoys me two. :blush:

Clive Long
6th-February-2006, 04:48 PM
When to capitalise?

Opinions anyone?

If I use the adjective (?) "european" when do I make the first letter a capital (upper-case) letter?

I'm feeling

the European Community

and

european car manufacturers


are correct, but I don't know, and I don't know how to choose between them? Except perhaps only capitalise Proper Nouns/Names and lower-case for all other uses.


Help anyone?


Thanks,

Clive

David Bailey
6th-February-2006, 05:00 PM
I'm feeling

the European Community
Yep. Or European Union, now of course. :)


european car manufacturers
Don't think so - "Europe" is capitalised, so "European" should be. It's the same as other location names - e.g. London.

Baruch
6th-February-2006, 08:09 PM
If I use the adjective (?) "european" when do I make the first letter a capital (upper-case) letter?
I believe you should use a capital letter for "European" on all occasions. You wouldn't use lower case letters for such examples as "british beef" or "english rose" or "welsh rugby" would you?

ducasi
6th-February-2006, 08:41 PM
I believe you should use a capital letter for "European" on all occasions. You wouldn't use lower case letters for such examples as "british beef" or "english rose" or "welsh rugby" would you?
I would. :devil:

In particular I tend to prefer "the english language" to "the English language", and keep the capitalised "English" when I'm actually talking about the people, rather than some (semi-)related concept.

David Bailey
6th-February-2006, 09:00 PM
In particular I tend to prefer "the english language" to "the English language", and keep the capitalised "English" when I'm actually talking about the people, rather than some (semi-)related concept.
Well, each to their own. And it being English, rather than say, French, there's no single Academy to tell you you're wrong. Creativity is inherent in the language.

But let's just say, you're in a small minority there... :whistle:

Alice
7th-February-2006, 09:14 AM
I would. :devil:

In particular I tend to prefer "the english language" to "the English language", and keep the capitalised "English" when I'm actually talking about the people, rather than some (semi-)related concept.
Nah, that's for the French:) :wink:
In English I capitalise both the adjective and the name of the people who live there (English rose, the English).
In French I don't cos they don't- then again, they don't capitalise names of days/months either:whistle:

ducasi
7th-February-2006, 09:20 AM
Nah, that's for the French:) :wink:
In English I capitalise both the adjective and the name of the people who live there (English rose, the English).
In French I don't cos they don't- then again, they don't capitalise names of days/months either:whistle:
The French are clearly more advanced than the english. :wink:

Alice
7th-February-2006, 09:22 AM
The French are clearly more advanced than the english. :wink:
No comment:whistle:

And no, I'm so not a French major:wink:

Baruch
7th-February-2006, 05:16 PM
And no, I'm so not a French major:wink:
Ah, a mere lieutenant, eh? :whistle:

Barry Shnikov
7th-February-2006, 07:16 PM
Ah, a mere lieutenant, eh? :whistle:

That's majorette, I think you'll find...

Alice
8th-February-2006, 12:12 AM
Ah, a mere lieutenant, eh? :whistle:
:rofl: :rofl:

TA Guy
8th-February-2006, 10:06 AM
Spelling ? Who cares. Life's too short, but I really hate posts written in (mobile phone) 'text' language. 'R u coming 2day' kind of stuff. Sometimes they are unreadable, at least by any known human lifeform.
I have yet to see a post on here like that, but I occasionally frequent the BBC's 606 football forum, and if you think the spelling and grammer could do with improvement here, that site will blow your cotton socks off.

Barry Shnikov
8th-February-2006, 02:01 PM
Spelling ? Who cares. Life's too short, but I really hate posts written in (mobile phone) 'text' language. 'R u coming 2day' kind of stuff. Sometimes they are unreadable, at least by any known human lifeform.
I have yet to see a post on here like that, but I occasionally frequent the BBC's 606 football forum, and if you think the spelling and grammer could do with improvement here, that site will blow your cotton socks off.

No!? Football fans can't write good english? Whatever next!!!!

TheTramp
8th-February-2006, 02:15 PM
but I really hate posts written in (mobile phone) 'text' language. 'R u coming 2day' kind of stuff. Sometimes they are unreadable, at least by any known human lifeform.

I have yet to see a post on here like that, but I occasionally frequent the BBC's 606 football forum, and if you think the spelling and grammer could do with improvement here, that site will blow your cotton socks off.

Keep looking. They happen. And there's also been several discussions about it too.

I sometimes go on the BBC's forums (mostly rugby and cricket though), and it's just sad.

Dreadful Scathe
8th-February-2006, 04:34 PM
Yes, that's the one. I hate it with a fiery passion. My wife, who is a classroom assistant, still has to use it at her school. She, needless to say, isn't impressed.

Maybe we should rename some of the Letterland letters: Empty Education, Konfused Kid, Fallible Fad or Pointless Prattle, anyone?

Arsehole Administrators are responsible. I hadn't heard of letter land letters, it sounds less than useful



Yeah, that annoys me to, though it's understandable in that they're really saying "would've" and "could've", with the "'ve" pronounced pretty much the same way as "of".

too..ahem

would've, could've etc.. are horrible contractions but it's down to ignorance if people use 'could of' instead.

ducasi
8th-February-2006, 04:51 PM
too..ahem

would've, could've etc.. are horrible contractions but it's down to ignorance if people use 'could of' instead.
So sue me! :rolleyes:

Baruch
8th-February-2006, 10:23 PM
would've, could've etc.. are horrible contractions
Agreed, but surely forms that would be unacceptable in writing are normal and even acceptable in colloquial speech.


but it's down to ignorance if people use 'could of' instead.
On that we agree. It's annoying whatever the cause, though.

Alice
9th-February-2006, 12:02 AM
Spelling ? Who cares. <snip>

spelling and grammer
Oh, so you won't mind me picking you up on yours then:whistle:

Whitebeard
9th-February-2006, 12:38 AM
Agreed, but surely forms that would be unacceptable in writing are normal and even acceptable in colloquial speech.

Perfectly acceptable too, I would say, in the conversational style of writing to be found on the forum and also, of course, in novels.