Argentinian Tango input into MJ?

[David Bailey]

OK, I know this thread will probably have to include the J-word, but there are hopefully enough of us doing / with experience of Argentinian Tango to make it varied.

From my massive 3 lessons' experience of Argentinian Tango, I can't really see much fusion of moves - ochos and possibly ganchos apart, which could basically be imported almost wholesale as simple move sequences - from AT to MJ. Most of the time, AT "Moves" are very straighforward, it's the execution, timing and style that are difficult.

However, for me, one interesting area of AT is the leading / following "connection" and "leading with the chest" thing - I can definitely feel the use of that, I'm already seeing how much of MJ involves yanking people around, and how little involves invitation.

Another area of interest to me is posture and style - the longer I've done MJ, the less I've moved about, and the less I've been on the balls of my feet whilst dancing. And AT seems to be an extension of this, with the teachers always saying "it's just walking". So I can see areas of development for me as a dancer there.

Anybody else got some experiences of how AT has helped develop their dancing in other areas?

[Franck]

However, for me, one interesting area of AT is the leading / following "connection" and "leading with the chest" thing - I can definitely feel the use of that, I'm already seeing how much of MJ involves yanking people around, and how little involves invitation.Yes, I would agree with that too!
The connection, and not using your arms so much was very inspiring.

Another huge revelation, was an awareness of the importance of balance / weight-distribution. In Tango, you are so close to your partner that you can't see where her feet are in relation to yours, so you have to A- Feel it and B- control her balance / weight distribution much more.
This was one of the areas I asked Stefano and Alexandra (from Tango in Action) to develop when they came over in June at the Beach Ballroom and they were very good at making it accessible to MJ dancers.

Many of the techniques I learnt have since inspired me to dance differently, and the workshops I taught at the BFG (the fingertip leading, and the controlling the frame, ones in particular) used many Argentine Tango techniques. For example, transferring your own weight to your right foot before stepping on the left, so that your partner either sees or feels it and is able to match the weight transfer and will step on her right (either forward or backward depending on the lead / connection).

This worked very well, and really made many people aware that a lot can be communicated without any force or contact provided you have connection and awareness!

[David Bailey]

In Tango, you are so close to your partner that you can't see where her feet are in relation to yours, so you have to A- Feel it and B- control her balance / weight distribution much more.
I'm still in beginnersville in AT, but I know what you mean.

Although that's not unique to tango - salsa does something very similar, that forces followers to feel the beat and follow the music rather than your partner.

[Franck]

Although that's not unique to tango - salsa does something very similar, that forces followers to feel the beat and follow the music rather than your partner.Oh, no, that's not what I was referring to. I'm a fierce proponent of lead & follow first!
Followers should follow the man, and maintain (or not mess with) the connection.
If I understand what you're referring to, in Salsa and Tango, the followers is able to interpret the music independently of the lead, and add many style points and feet movements. Which is great and can look incredible, provided that the styling / musicality is added without breaking the connection (excepting shines of course, where the (physical) connection is interrupted).
We did a little bit of that in the footwork workshop, and in the fingertip leading, trying to isolate body movement from the hand connection (we were jumping like kangaroos at the time)...

What I was referring to was (for starters) an awareness of which foot your partner is balanced on, so that you can step with her (or indeed mirror / parallel her footwork). In tango, if you forget to transfer your partner's weight to the correct foot, you'll end up kicking her and won't get many dances. In MJ, we get away with it as we are much further apart, can see each other's feet, and rarely have to match footwork.

[David Bailey]

Oh, no, that's not what I was referring to. I'm a fierce proponent of lead & follow first!
Followers should follow the man, and maintain (or not mess with) the connection.
Sorry, that's not what I meant - I meant it more simply in that footwork in salsa is pretty much optional, but the rhythm is mandatory - and dancing close in almost forces the followers to listen to the beat and move to the rhythm, rather than mechanically following the man's timing and steps.


What I was referring to was (for starters) an awareness of which foot your partner is balanced on, so that you can step with her (or indeed mirror / parallel her footwork). In tango, if you forget to transfer your partner's weight to the correct foot, you'll end up kicking her and won't get many dances.
Yes, I've seen that already - although it's as often the follower not paying attention as the leader not leading. Admittedly I could be deluding myself here that I'm providing a competent lead...

[Clive Long]

<<snip>>
However, for me, one interesting area of AT is the leading / following "connection" and "leading with the chest" thing - I can definitely feel the use of that, I'm already seeing how much of MJ involves yanking people around, and how little involves invitation.
<<snip>>


{Excellent stuff - will repay thought}

Three things that are prominent for me currently in my exposure to Tango (a.k.a Argentinean Tango)

Frame
Left arm "Compression balance"
Chest lead

Frame - the idea that an ellipse shape (OK, unachievable ideal) should be maintained between the torsoes and arms of the dancers. The arms are at the "pointy" ends of the ellipse. I think in a close embrace the ellipse is smaller and "flatter" but the concept of this shape is maintained. As the alignment between the dancers changes the leader's hand slides "in the ellipse" around the follower's back. I don't know if this has an equivalent in other dances. This approach maintains a constant connection between the dancers that Martin Harper asked about elsewhere (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6727) but probably does not translate to MJ.

"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force". This helps transmit intention from the leader without an explicit "push" from the man. The follower's right hand should aim to remain in the "plane" between the dancers' torsoes. If the follower's right arm "collapses" back this makes a lead difficult and ugly. I have been told about this "springiness" between the partners' arms in some MJ lessons.

Chest lead - this replaces the MJ pushes and signals. I performed an exercise (that I might have described before) with the sainted Pamela yesterday. We just walked, backwards, forwards and sideways at an "open embrace distance". All she had to do was follow and attempt to keep her torso "in the plane" of mine. A good exercise to emphasise clear lead and follow. The strange thing is, I found it a most intimate exercise because, although there was no physical contact I had to pay attention to my partner and relate to her. Most unsettling for a dancer who normally inspects the condition of the floor or the paintwork on the ceiling as he dances.

Clive

[philsmove]

I'm still in beginnersville in AT, but I know what you mean.

Although that's not unique to tango - salsa does something very similar, that forces followers to feel the beat and follow the music rather than your partner.

I’m also very much a beginner at TA

We taught as beginners - the followers must do just that

FOLLOW

[philsmove]

..... I found it a most intimate exercise because, although there was no physical contact I had to pay attention to my partner and relate to her. ....Clive

As my teacher says “you lead with the heart”

[MartinHarper]

"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force".

How does this jive with the idea of using a very "light" lead?


The strange thing is, I found it a most intimate exercise because, although there was no physical contact I had to pay attention to my partner and relate to her.

I had very much the same feeling when this exercise was first introduced to me at Sultans of Swing. The cumulative effect of doing this for just 15-30 minutes was... unsettling, and kinda inspiring. Some day I went to get that feeling in normal dancing.
It also means that I have a legit excuse for staring at my partner's "heart".

[Franck]

How does this jive with the idea of using a very "light" lead?Perfectly as it happens. As the Follower is supposed to match the Leaders' pressure, it's up to the Leader to apply a "light" pressure / lead and the Follower will match that.

In the Lead & Follow basics workshop on Saturday, we spent a lot of time differentiating between 'inner' and 'outer' connection. The former being to do with (mostly follower's) posture and balance, so that any momentum from one part of your body translates in a virtually instant matched momentum from the rest of your body (i.e. your body follows the motion of your hand without delay). The latter was the connection with your partner, i.e. matching any point of contact (be it compression or leverage) and isolating the connection from any extraneous style footwork or body movement you add to the dance.

Once, as a follower, you have a good inner connection, the leader can have a very light touch (or indeed no touch at all if using visual connection) and still lead incredibly complex patterns with no hesitation.

[Clive Long]

"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force".


How does this jive with the idea of using a very "light" lead?
Yep, yep. Good point.

Let me try this ...

In MJ if your partner's "hand/arm tone" is too hard/rigid it feels like you are wrestling with a 600lb gorilla (and I have had a few of those) and makes you push harder to get the gorilla moving

In MJ if your partner's "hand/arm tone" is too soft/flaccid it feels most unpleasant and makes you push harder to get any reaction to the lead. One feels one is wrestling with jelly rather than the gorilla.

In MJ I like the idea of my partner's arms/hands providing a light spring response. So a gentle push will produce a slight movement but her hand will come back to "neutral". A stronger push - but still light in comparison to the wrestling described above - will initiate a move by one's partner - hopefully somewhat approximating the response one hoped for.

In Tango, as I understand, the emphasis is more on maintaining the frame, so if you push harder she will push back. There may be a role for push and pull in Tango but I'm getting the message it is frowned upon. Others with more experience of Tango care to comment?

CRL

[Franck]

In Tango, as I understand, the emphasis is more on maintaining the frame, so if you push harder she will push back. There may be a role for push and pull in Tango but I'm getting the message it is frowned upon. Others with more experience of Tango care to comment?From my (limited) understanding of Tango, there is no 'Push', instead, the connection is so complete that any momentum is imparted by the body moving (i.e. the man shifting his weight, or stepping).

[Clive Long]

From my (limited) understanding of Tango, there is no 'Push',
My understanding too.

In my first post I wrote


"Left arm compression" - the follower should maintain the same force with her right palm against the leader's left palm to match his "applied force". This helps transmit intention from the leader without an explicit "push" from the man.


instead, the connection is so complete that any momentum is imparted by the body moving (i.e. the man shifting his weight, or stepping).
Summarises well what I have been told

CRL

[JonD]

What a great thread!
As you may have worked out, I'm an AT junkie. I've been dancing it for about 3 1/2 years although I've done nowhere near as much as I'd like - some huge gaps in there.

I think AT has made a significant difference to the way I dance Jive. I'd break it down into four areas.

Connection. Tango can generate a very intense connection but I think I've learnt to modulate that to suit my partner and this has carried over into Jive. I've always had a habit of looking at my partner when I'm dancing and that can make some people uncomfortable. (No, not a scary stare, I promise). Dancing Tango in close embrace means that you can't see your partner, you can only feel them and you become much more sensitive to their movement and the tension in their body and frame. That seems to have carried over into Jive and I no longer rely so much on eye contact to maintain a connection. That sounds a bit weird, but I find I'm better at sensing the level of connection at which my partner becomes uncomfortable. Best of all is when there are no limits!

Lead/Follow. The lead in AT demands that you are accurate in your body positioning and I think this makes a huge difference. You can communicate so much by how you position yourself. It also teaches you to disassociate your upper and lower body so you are quite comfortable having your chest facing one direction and your hips another which kind of helps in circular walks and the like. I try to lead with one finger in Jive and I think that using my "presence" helps that considerably.

Followers learn to be "present". To maintain that tension that means, if you have a fingertip against the small of their back and gently take the finger away, they'll walk backwards to retain the connection. That's incredibly helpful in Jive.

Another, rather more esoteric thing that I've learnt is "leading by intention" - if you think it then it will happen. Once you are reasonably competent leading from your centre (or, as Philsmove says, your heart) then try leading without any contact at all. It is, as Clive says, a very intense connection and you'll find that just by thinking where you want your partner to go they'll be there. Sadly, it doesn't work all the time! I first experienced it at a "Tango and Tai Chi" workshop. A good example of the crossover to Jive is being able to lead a Columbian Walk without any physical contact.


Another huge revelation, was an awareness of the importance of balance / weight-distribution. In Tango, you are so close to your partner that you can't see where her feet are in relation to yours, so you have to A- Feel it and B- control her balance / weight distribution much more.
Doesn't that make a huge difference? If you can put your partner on her left foot before turning her out in a First Move you'll get an accurate pivot - if you put her on her right foot you can do all sorts of other things!

Quality of Movement. This is what I'm trying to work on at the moment. In Jive we move so fast that we often don't pay close attention to our balance or the way we get from one foot to the other. Tango, because it can be danced so much slower, gives you the opportunity to really think about the way you are moving. Balance, posture, timing, accuracy, being grounded: just the way you move. Tango encourages me to think of these things and try different ways of achieving them. I then try and bring the lessons into my Jive, no matter that I'm moving more quickly. It's one of the huge differences between the pros and the celebrities on SCD - just the way they move.

Musicality. I find Tango music has many more "layers" than a lot of the stuff I dance Jive to. You can dance to the rhythm or the melody or a particular instrument, it's all OK. You learn to use pauses - not breaks where you stop but pauses where you are still dancing just not moving: you intensify the connection with your partner as the music builds and then just as the connection threatens to overwhelm you, you release it into a step just as the music reaches a crescendo. That sort of thing! (Phew!). At the other end of the scale there are fast secadas, giros, dramatic boleos with which you can play. If you want to use the toys you've got to listen to the music! Tango has made me much more confident about being "brave" in my musical interpretation in Jive although I'm still no good at creating really dramatic moments. (By the way, if I try fast sacadas then I'm quite likely to kick my partner's ankles off).

Sorry, this has turned into something of an essay!

[RogerR]

The trouble seems to be more that MJ followers dont/won't dance that close.

[Rebecca]

I’m also very much a beginner at TA

We taught as beginners - the followers must do just that

FOLLOW


I like the idea promoted in the (two) tango classes I've had the pleasure of attending that the follower is INVITED into a space.

[David Bailey]

The trouble seems to be more that MJ followers dont/won't dance that close.
AT doesn't have to be danced close in - the techniques of leading, following etc. work just as fine with any hold, or none at all.

It's only since seeing a real connection that I realised how much I as a lead have been yanking people around all these years :tears:

So I think the problem is that most MJ leaders don't lead "correctly" and most MJ followers don't follow "correctly" - for some value of correct, at least.

[DavidB]

Interesting thing is -I've seen everything mentioned in this thread (and more) taught in Modern Jive over the last few years.

[JonD]

So I think the problem is that most MJ leaders don't lead "correctly" and most MJ followers don't follow "correctly" - for some value of correct, at least.
While I'd agree I think it's only fair to point out that a frightening number of AT dancers don't lead or follow correctly. You'll see plenty of "rowing" (excessive use of the arms) and some quite horribly robust body-leads (I'm being polite) at most milongas. Lots of people in AT are move obsessed and believe that if you do flashy stuff you are dancing well!

I guess that more AT teachers focus more on the principles of lead/follow than MJ teachers simply because you can't do the dance without understanding at least the basics. Plus, AT classes are generally much smaller than MJ classes (Jenny & Ricardo's amazing class at Camber in 2004 being a very honourable exception) so they can spend more time focussing on individuals.


Interesting thing is -I've seen everything mentioned in this thread (and more) taught in Modern Jive over the last few years.
I think there's a distinct difference in emphasis between early AT and MJ classes: in most AT classes moves are used as a vehicle to teach lead/follow, posture and technique whereas in MJ lead/follow, posture and technique are used as a vehicle to teach moves. That difference reduces as you become more competent - in MJ you stop being so move obsessed and take advantage of the classes DavidB is referring to.

[MartinHarper]

So I think the problem is that most MJ leaders don't lead "correctly" and most MJ followers don't follow "correctly" - for some value of correct, at least.

It was interesting being taught WCS and then Hustle by Jordan and Tatiana, back at Southport June. In WCS, they talked about the importance of body leads. In Hustle, they talked about the importance of big arms.

The learning point for me was that "correct" technique can vary between dances - and between dancers.

[philsmove]

I think there's a distinct difference in emphasis between early AT and MJ classes: in most AT classes moves are used as a vehicle to teach lead/follow, posture and technique whereas in MJ lead/follow, posture and technique are used as a vehicle to teach moves. .

:yeah: Which begs the question, which method is better
The MJ method will get you dancing quicker
But the TA method will, I think, in the long run, make you a better dancer

[Clive Long]

Interesting thing is -I've seen everything mentioned in this thread (and more) taught in Modern Jive over the last few years.
Could you PM me who you feel teaches these concepts in MJ? I go to lots of well-taught Ceroc classes but haven't come across this in those classes. I'm sure these "things" are common to most (all?) dance forms - I have only been exposed to them in Tango lessons. I feel I am at a point to benefit from this "stuff" we are jiving ( (c) Martin Harper) about in this thread. I would love to incorporate such things into my MJ to make the dances more satisfying for my partner (and li'l ol' me). I don't think I can transfer the style and technique without help.

Clive

[JonD]

The MJ method will get you dancing quicker
But the TA method will, I think, in the long run, make you a better dancer
The MJ method got me to dance. An AT class would have confirmed my conviction that dancing was just something I could not do and would never be able to do. I'd have run, screaming, from the building!

If you're dealing with someone who wasn't traumatised by primary school "movement to music" (...just go and be a butterfly to this music...) at the age of 6 then I agree with you.

[philsmove]

I'd have run, screaming, from the building!

.

:yeah: :blush: me too

[David Bailey]

The MJ method got me to dance. An AT class would have confirmed my conviction that dancing was just something I could not do and would never be able to do. I'd have run, screaming, from the building!
:yeah: Me three.

In fact, I think the main reason I didn't like the few AT classes I did a few years ago was because I wasn't ready for it; it was too much for me and I couldn't see how it would work with me and dancing.

[Graham W]

I have recently attended a couple of quality tango lessons and I had no thought of transferring anything to jive yet, but I have found my awareness of my partner has improved straight away.

C your point about following Philsmove, though I think that message is brought accross better then some jive classes.



G

[spindr]

Never seen *any* MJ class / workshop teaching balance exercises, or walking :)
SpinDr.

[bigdjiver]

:yeah: Which begs the question, which method is better
The MJ method will get you dancing quicker
But the TA method will, I think, in the long run, make you a better dancerIt also begs the question as to which method produces more Tango dancers in the long run. The local Tango class has a far higher drop out record than our local Mj classes, and most of the dancers at them have come via MJ. We are quite used to seeing mini-Tango classes after, or even during, our local MJ nights, and the bonus play out track is often something that dancers Tango to.
Our local Leroc venue played a 5 1/2 minute Tango track in its playlist. (It had a big break in the middle, which gave me the perfect chance to practise my break technique - "Thank you, I enjoyed that." "Would you like to try a dance?" "Duuh" :blush: )
MJ input into Tango might be a relevant thread title too.

[Gadget]

:yeah: Which begs the question, which method is better
The MJ method will get you dancing quicker
But the TA method will, I think, in the long run, make you a better dancer
You think so? If both teach the same things (principles), but in a different order, why should one make you better over the other?

BTW SpinDr: Come up to some of the classes and workshops Franck puts on for us up here - I've been on ones that teach balance and walking. And connection. And frame. And musicality. And technique. And footwork. And spinning. And...and... and... I still have a lot to learn.

[David Bailey]

Never seen *any* MJ class / workshop teaching balance exercises, or walking :)
SpinDr.
It's possible this happens at The West London place (actually, I'm surprised no-one from Jango has popped in to comment yet...?), but I've never encountered this sort of stuff.

For example, on the second class I did a couple of weeks ago, the teacher spent 10 minutes talking about how to stand, how to spread your toes, how to feel the string through your body pulling the upper half up and the lower half down - and this sort of thing is repeated every time. The demo (this is just the demo!) spent ten minutes last week teaching us how to slide balance walking forwards and backwards.

So any regular MJ classes that taught this, I'd also be interested in.

Well, unless if it's at Jango of course, they're all evil over there. Or Scotland. Or anywhere that's hard to get to, or inconvenient. Apart from that...

[MartinHarper]

If both teach the same things (principles), but in a different order, why should one make you better over the other?

Suppose I learn 100 moves. Then I'm taught to dance. Can I now dance 100 moves? No - absolutely not. I have to go back over those moves, and relearn them now I know how to dance.
Now suppose I'm taught to dance, and then I'm taught 100 moves. At the end of it, I should be able to dance 100 moves. As a bonus, because I've already been taught how to dance, I'll pick up the moves quicker.

[philsmove]

Last nights beginners TA had men over

So I l started to learnt to follow and am beginning to understand, what a leader is trying to achieve and what I was doing wrong as a leader

With lots of ladies over at some MJ classes should men be taught to follow?

[Lynn]

Really interesting thread. I've done about 3 AT (or is TA?) classes - rather dispersed - but would like to do more. For me, what I have taken from my extremely limited AT experiences has been about following.

I very much enjoyed Franck's class at the BFG about controlling the frame and the lead thinking about where the follow has her weight.

Following well is my biggest goal in dancing (except for those occasions when I want to play!) and something that I'm always trying to improve - an often feel I am failing. I'm hoping there will be AT classes in Belfast early next year and these will help me improve my following.

[doc martin]

I attended my first AT class last night, mainly due to the inspiration of Franck's fingertip leading workshop on Sunday.

Interestingly, they held the intermediate class before the beginners and I got there in time to watch the end of that class. You have to bear in mind that this was the university tango society so probably most of the people in the intermediate class had not been dancing long. My first impression was that after Franck's workshops and Trampy's blues workshop, the leading of the moves being taught didn't look too difficult.

The first scary moment came before the beginners class when the teacher put on a track an made everyone get up to dance to it :eek: . I tried to make myself look invisible with an unsurprising lack of success. The teacher said 'just try something', so I did. I did the forward and backward fingertip leading that Franck taught us and magically my partner did not seem to be too disappointed (she had had only a few lessons herself).

The teacher taught a simple pattern that, by the end of the lesson, built up to left - forward outside - forward inside - cross over legs to change weight - forward - right. I'm sure there are lovely technical names for all the moves, but he didn't try to confuse us with those this early.

All the leading was done hand-to-hand, which was fine by me as it gave me more foot room. There was a lot of emphasis on how you walk, how you transfer your weight, how you feel where your partner's weight is and how to make them move by shifting your center of gravity. There was not too much on how to make a good connection and a couple of the other beginners that I did the exercises with had spaghetti arms. I was surprised how much this affected something as simple as walking forwards.

We spent half the time leading and half following, which was a novel experience for me. Not surprisingly, I found the following more difficult. It showed me how impatient I can be when I feel it is time to move :blush:

I thoroughly enjoyed the class and felt it would definitely help my MJ leading, especially of slower tracks. I think it will help mainly in keeping me aware of when and where I can lead my partner based on her weight distrubution at each moment.

I would have appreciated more technical details about maintaining a connection, dissociating body parts and posture (I am a geek after all), but I can understand why the teacher would not want to get too technical in a beginners class. I have no idea how long it will take me to move on to the next level of classes, but I think the grounding I have had in MJ will let me progress quite rapidly.

I am going to continue to try to lead more walky things in MJ, when the music feels right for it, and see if what I am learning in AT helps to make simple walks, weight shifts and pauses an interesting part of the dance rather than the filler I often use them as at the moment.

[Gadget]

Suppose I learn 100 moves. Then I'm taught to dance. Can I now dance 100 moves? No - absolutely not. I have to go back over those moves, and relearn them now I know how to dance.
Now suppose I'm taught to dance, and then I'm taught 100 moves. At the end of it, I should be able to dance 100 moves. As a bonus, because I've already been taught how to dance, I'll pick up the moves quicker.
1: that's "quicker", not "better"
2: by learning the moves, you have a base on learning to dance and you know what it applies to; therefore learning to dance will be quicker.

:shrug: Arguments for both sides - I still fail to see why one will produce a better dancer than the other.

[doc martin]

Suppose I learn 100 moves. Then I'm taught to dance. Can I now dance 100 moves? No - absolutely not. I have to go back over those moves, and relearn them now I know how to dance.
Now suppose I'm taught to dance, and then I'm taught 100 moves. At the end of it, I should be able to dance 100 moves. As a bonus, because I've already been taught how to dance, I'll pick up the moves quicker.
That would apply only if we were taught in such an alternating fashion and only if we learned in such a linear manner.

In reality we learn a few new moves, which gives us some clues about dancing the moves we already know better, which makes it easier to learn more new moves and/or variations on the old ones.

The continual reinterpretation of past experience in the light of new is one of the pleasures and driving forces of learning. If applied properly to dancing it leads to a continuous upward spiral through the multiple dimensions that make up dancing skill, the moves, the timing, the musical interpretation and all the other aspects which we learn in parallel.

I do realise that some people only ever learn one aspect, in MJ usually the moves and that we are all probably better at some aspects than others, which aspects we are best at varying over time as we concentrate more on one aspect of our dancing.

But I am sure that in all types of dance teaching both moves and dancing are taught right from the off. The emphasis may different, but I suspect the rate of ascent of the spiral would be much the same. What may differ, in my opinion, is the proportion who stick with a dancing/teaching style. As BD pointed out his local AT class has a higher drop out rate than the MJ class, which probably says a lot about the number of people who will eventually be able to dance MJ.

I think that if any dance teacher attempted the 'karate kid' approach to learning, with potential dancers doing the equivalent of 'wax on, wax off' exercises until they had mastered the movements, virtually nobody would stick to the programme until they had learnt to dance. Such an idea does, however, bring to mind amusing (to me at least) images of people sliding around a floor with dusters under their feet, slowly moving one hand to their shoulder and the other to their hip while an old, bearded man in a black T-shirt says "Feel the connection". Sorry, got a bit sidetracked there :whistle:

[DavidB]

Such an idea does, however, bring to mind amusing (to me at least) images of people sliding around a floor with dusters under their feet, slowly moving one hand to their shoulder and the other to their hip while an old, bearded man in a black T-shirt says "Feel the connection". I wondered why Franck's car was so clean. It looked like it had been polished by someone doing hundreds of gentle semi-circles with the hand...

[doc martin]

I wondered why Franck's car was so clean. It looked like it had been polished by someone doing hundreds of gentle semi-circles with the hand...
I just hope he doesn't notice the dents... I was waxing a bit lyrical when I first started. Unfortunately the lyrics were from "Nellie the elephant went to town" and I got a bit carried away on the "Trump, trump, trump" bit.

[MartinHarper]

that's "quicker", not "better"

They're equivalent. If I acquire knowledge/skills efficiently, then I can use the time/money saved to acquire more.


That would apply only if we were taught in such an alternating fashion and only if we learned in such a linear manner.

As you have cleverly spotted, I was simplifying the situation to make my point clearer. That said, I did mention the need to relearn moves having learnt to dance, which is an example of non-linear learning.

[doc martin]

They're equivalent. If I acquire knowledge/skills efficiently, then I can use the time/money saved to acquire more.
I feel I have to disagree here, although I could be persuaded that in the case of dancing MJ you are right. I was thinking in terms of learning to play the piano where (I am told) if you do not learn the correct technique first, you will never be able to progress beyond a certain point.

It may be that that point, translated to MJ terms,is quite a long way along the learning curve, possibly further than most of us social dancers will reach, so it is irrelevant.

It may be that such precise technique is only important in a pursuit that requires such precision and that MJ does not have this requirement, so the technique can be picked up by unlearning bad habits piecemeal.

But it may be that if, for instance, you don't get your lead/follow technique right in the first place then, no matter how much time and/or money you throw at it, you will never be as good as you could have been.

I don't think that I know enough to say which of these is right (or if they are all complete nonsense), but I feel instinctively that there is a non-equivalence.

As you have cleverly spotted, I was simplifying the situation to make my point clearer. That said, I did mention the need to relearn moves having learnt to dance, which is an example of non-linear learning.
Can't disagree with any of that :)

[Gadget]

They're equivalent. If I acquire knowledge/skills efficiently, then I can use the time/money saved to acquire more.
Both examples will reach different benchmarks at different times: there can only be an element of "time" if there is a common ultimate destination - if this is to be "The Best Dancer Ever", then {assuming equal ability and quality of teaching} both will reach it at the same time.

If I learn the moves first, then I don't need to learn them again and will have a better understanding of their execution if I ever want to apply other techniques to it. I will have practived the move and know it well. I don't need to spend the time/money later on to learn the moves.
The person learning technique may have trouble applying the technique to the move because they don't know the move or the situation it can be applied in.

[Yogi_Bear]

<edited>

I think there's a distinct difference in emphasis between early AT and MJ classes: in most AT classes moves are used as a vehicle to teach lead/follow, posture and technique whereas in MJ lead/follow, posture and technique are used as a vehicle to teach moves. That difference reduces as you become more competent - in MJ you stop being so move obsessed and take advantage of the classes DavidB is referring to.
An interesting thread. I would have to agree. In tango beginner classes the emphasis is very definitely on posture, intention, distribution of weight, learning to walk, learning to lead and follow, listening to the music, the correct ocho and giro steps....and then, perhaps reluctantly, learning a basic longer sequence like La salida (the 'eight count'). This can be hard work after years of exposure to MJ, but is essential in order to move on. In comparison, learning MJ you need to pick up and amass knowlege of a series of 'moves' - how you actually perform them is usually of little consequence. (Fine, it gets lots of people into dance quickly and painlessly). When a MJ dancer loses interest in adding more moves to their collection and starts to think about the basics of lead and follow, frame and connection, and so on, they're making genuine progress.

[Lynn]

When a MJ dancer loses interest in adding more moves to their collection and starts to think about the basics of lead and follow, frame and connection, and so on, they're making genuine progress.I think its different for lead and follow though. I got to the 'I don't want to learn more moves, I want to learn how to dance' stage at about week 5! I do really want to learn all the other bits, technique, posture, control, frame, balance etc. Hopefully doing some AT will feed into that.

[David Bailey]

In tango beginner classes the emphasis is very definitely on posture, intention, distribution of weight, learning to walk, learning to lead and follow, listening to the music, the correct ocho and giro steps....and then, perhaps reluctantly, learning a basic longer sequence like La salida (the 'eight count').
:yeah:
In the 10-week course I and Clive are doing, we're half-way through, and I can't honestly say we've yet been taught any routine. The "moves" we've been taught have been used solely as illustrations of technique.

It's great!


I think its different for lead and follow though. I got to the 'I don't want to learn more moves, I want to learn how to dance' stage at about week 5!
Good God. I'm only just at that stage now... :tears:

[JonD]

I think its different for lead and follow though. I got to the 'I don't want to learn more moves, I want to learn how to dance' stage at about week 5! I do really want to learn all the other bits, technique, posture, control, frame, balance etc. Hopefully doing some AT will feed into that.
Ah, but it's different for girls! I suspect a lot of men are like me - the moves were our security blanket and we hung onto them for as long as possible.

Learning moves first, in the MJ model, gives you a good vocabulary very quickly - never mind that you have little idea of the grammar, at least you can communicate even if it is a bit garbled. Learning the grammar first, with only enough vocabulary to enable you to apply the gramatical rules can be very frustrating. You have a wonderful connection, want to interpret some fantastic piece of music and the only words you have to express yourself are forward, backward and side steps plus an unbalanced ocho. Of course, as you get better, you have the tools to reshape moves so that they really fit what you want to say.

[bigdjiver]

I found it difficult to learn how to ride a bicycle. I would find it almost impossible to un-learn how to ride a bicycle. Bad habits, once learned, are almost impossible to eradicate. IMO Technique, then moves, is always going to produce a better dancer in a given time period, if the dancer sticks at it. Two weeks of "Shoulders back" and "point your toes" and I would have been "out of there". 10 minutes of clumping about at MJ, and loving every minute of it, and I was hooked. (I had done self-taught Trad Jive before.)

[Petal]

From my (limited) understanding of Tango, there is no 'Push', instead, the connection is so complete that any momentum is imparted by the body moving (i.e. the man shifting his weight, or stepping).

I've had about 10 AT lessons now, and never heard push/pull mentioned. It's all about shifting weight, body positioning and the man leading from the chest. Very disciplined but great fun.:)

[JonD]

I've had about 10 AT lessons now, and never heard push/pull mentioned. It's all about shifting weight, body positioning and the man leading from the chest. Very disciplined but great fun.
A couple of late night thoughts on mental processes when leading. For a leader think about being clear in your intention. Try not to concentrate on where your weight is and the process of shifting it. If you want to take a forward step on your right foot on parallel feet then just have a clear intention that your partner should step back on her left - it seems natural for your partner to pick up on that strong intention and seems to prevent me getting all flumoxed about where her weight is and where mine is.

Another slightly different approach that works for me is to think about leading from my belly-button rather than my chest. Julie used to say that my lead was sometimes like "cotton wool" - no clear intention and all soft and fuzzy. I learnt about leading from the belly-button a year ago and it's helped me make my intention clearer.

Final one before I go to bed. To avoid pulling and pushing, imagine that are carrying a big, shallow pan full of water within your frame - something like a big, shallow wok. If you are jerky in your movements, push and pull, break the frame or tilt it from side to side you'll spill the water. The water can swirl in the pan but you mustn't spill it!

I got all those from Komala and Stephan - good teachers.

[philsmove]

Try not to concentrate on where your weight is and the process of shifting it. If you want to take a forward step on your right foot on parallel feet then just have a clear intention that your partner should step back on her left - it seems natural for your partner to pick up on that strong intention and seems to prevent me getting all flumoxed about where her weight is and where mine is.

.


:yeah:

As a beginner I do find problems with “the mental process” being quite different to MJ

I guess and hope it will be come automatic after a while and I can concentrate on the music rather than were my weight is

[David Bailey]

After my most recent class, I've been thinking a bit last night about this, and I'm still undecided as to how much AT can be input into MJ.

The lead is so light, so invitational, so subtle - most of the time, an MJ follower may well miss it, because they're used to being led by the arms; being led from the torso is such a novel experience it's difficult to see how successful it'll be, unless the follower has also done some AT.

I've attempted to lead a couple of ATs in Ceroc (apologies to my partners, you know who you are), and it's damned tricky. On the other hand, it's a great anticipation trap; if the follower is a serial backleader, a simple AT walking-forward-and-back thing throws them :whistle:

I'd really like to hear from some Jango-istas (betcha never thought you'd see me say that :innocent: ) about this area; amazingly, I've re-read the "Monday Night Jango" thread, and I'm still no wiser about the, you know, dancing part of it.

[DavidB]

The lead is so light, so invitational, so subtle - most of the time, an MJ follower may well miss it, because they're used to being led by the arms; being led from the torso is such a novel experience it's difficult to see how successful it'll be, unless the follower has also done some AT.
You would be surprised. Despite the fact that hardly any MJ ladies have ever been explicitly taught how to follow, most of them can follow just about anything.

[David Bailey]

You would be surprised. Despite the fact that hardly any MJ ladies have ever been explicitly taught how to follow, most of them can follow just about anything.
Yeah, it's probably just that my particular AT lead is too hesitant, I should be more manly and macho in my invitations or something...

[philsmove]

The main input I have found from my beginners TA is dance “Theory” for example understanding my partner’s weight shift
The TA classes I have attended spend a lot of time, teaching you how to lead and, follow, rather than just learning more and more moves
Followers are taught to follow, rather than do a routine, which they dance regardless of how it is lead. The men are also taught to follow and ladies to lead

I’m probably going to get my head bit off for saying this - but some teachers could learn to teach. IMHO the overall standard of teaching TA in Bristol is a lot higher than the overall standard of teaching MJ


Yeah, it's probably just that my particular AT lead is too hesitant, I should be more manly and macho in my invitations or something...

Yup, we are taught how to invite a lady to dance, which should indeed be manly and macho

[David Bailey]

I’m probably going to get my head bit off for saying this - but some teachers could learn to teach. IMHO the overall standard of teaching TA in Bristol is a lot higher than the overall standard of teaching MJ
I dunno - I know what you're saying, but I think it's more that MJ teachers are teaching different things, rather than they're "poor teachers".

MJ teachers are typically teaching a class of 50-100 novices how to get up and move to the rhythm with a partner, as quickly as possible. They have maybe 30 minutes to dash through a 4-move routine, with no time for questions or for discourses on technique, and then have to do the same thing 15 minutes later to another group of 50-100 improvers. It's a high-pressure, highly-regulated, tightly-disciplined format.

AT teachers (from what I can tell) are typically teaching a class of 10-20 people, many of whom are experienced dancers, how to walk properly. They then talk about standing properly. They then look at each individual and each couple, and give feedback on walking and standing. They then talk some more, and maybe if you're lucky they'll demonstrate technique at the end with a move. And they usually have an hour or more to do this.

It's such a different emphasis, comparisons of ability between the two are difficult at best.

Some MJ teachers are superb, some are less-than-superb. I'm sure the same applies to AT.

[LMC]

I've attempted to lead a couple of ATs in Ceroc (apologies to my partners, you know who you are), and it's damned tricky. On the other hand, it's a great anticipation trap; if the follower is a serial backleader, a simple AT walking-forward-and-back thing throws them :whistle:
I know, I have to dye my hair now to stay blonde :tears:

Seriously, I actually really enjoyed the challenge - relaxing and going with such an apparently simple lead (just walking backwards and forwards) after being hurled around the floor by some of the Finchley MJ-ers was surprisingly difficult! Closing my eyes made it easier (even if every time I peeked I was positive we were getting strange looks from Robin :rofl: ). As someone who had never ever had any contact with AT, I'm actually "sold" on doing some classes, for improving my balance, posture and connection if nothing else (I'm not sure about the whole footwork thing... :shudder:)

[David Bailey]

Closing my eyes made it easier (even if every time I peeked I was positive we were getting strange looks from Robin :rofl: ).
Nahh, he always looks that way.


(I'm not sure about the whole footwork thing... :shudder:)
Fortunately, there's almost no "footwork", in terms of complex patterns.
However, there's a shed-load of "this is how you move your feet, and legs, and torso and head" type of "footwork"...

[JonD]

I should be more manly and macho in my invitations or something...
"Be a bull"!

That's what Fernando Solano kept saying in a class I did with him a couple of years ago. (He was over from Rome which is where he normally teaches. I was so far out of my depth that I was clinging on to the class by the skin of my teeth - not a good experience).

Try the "leading from your belly-button" thing. I find it takes the tissue paper out of my lead even if I don't really know what I'm doing or what is going to happen. It's one of the things I've bought into MJ - it seems to make it easier to lead things like turning a First Move Manhattan into a walk back or going straight into a walk from a turn or return.


You would be surprised. Despite the fact that hardly any MJ ladies have ever been explicitly taught how to follow, most of them can follow just about anything.
I wouldn't agree. Sure, good MJ followers can really follow but the vast majority don't pick up on subtle leads. I reckon we've got some really good followers down here in Exeter, probably because Nelson & Karen do explicitly teach following. However, of the 100 or so ladies who turn up on a Thursday night there are probably 10 to 15 who don't go into "blunder mode" when invited to do a circling walk anti-clockwise which is led more by body position than arm. (Arms at waist level - not a reverse slidebreak walkround). That's why "Ferarri" type followers like Lily are such a delight (I've only danced with Lily once, at Westlands in Yeovil - she called me a "total tease")!


AT teachers (from what I can tell) are typically teaching... {snip}
Interestingly, I find that the average standard of following amongst ladies from the Paignton MJ class is higher than in Exeter, even though Paignton has only been running for 8 months or so. It's something that the other Exeter based dance-junky leaders agree on. I think it's to do with the fact that it's a smaller class and so people there have more opportunity to dance with and get feedback from the coaches (Animaltalk is one) and Nelson than they do in the much larger Exeter class.

[Petal]

there's a shed-load of "this is how you move your feet, and legs, and torso and head" type of "footwork"...

:yeah:

[dancefiend]

What a great thread!
As you may have worked out, I'm an AT junkie. I've been dancing it for about 3 1/2 years although I've done nowhere near as much as I'd like - some huge gaps in there.

I think AT has made a significant difference to the way I dance Jive. I'd break it down into four areas.

Connection. Tango can generate a very intense connection but I think I've learnt to modulate that to suit my partner and this has carried over into Jive. I've always had a habit of looking at my partner when I'm dancing and that can make some people uncomfortable. (No, not a scary stare, I promise). Dancing Tango in close embrace means that you can't see your partner, you can only feel them and you become much more sensitive to their movement and the tension in their body and frame. That seems to have carried over into Jive and I no longer rely so much on eye contact to maintain a connection. That sounds a bit weird, but I find I'm better at sensing the level of connection at which my partner becomes uncomfortable. Best of all is when there are no limits!

Lead/Follow. The lead in AT demands that you are accurate in your body positioning and I think this makes a huge difference. You can communicate so much by how you position yourself. It also teaches you to disassociate your upper and lower body so you are quite comfortable having your chest facing one direction and your hips another which kind of helps in circular walks and the like. I try to lead with one finger in Jive and I think that using my "presence" helps that considerably.

Followers learn to be "present". To maintain that tension that means, if you have a fingertip against the small of their back and gently take the finger away, they'll walk backwards to retain the connection. That's incredibly helpful in Jive.

Another, rather more esoteric thing that I've learnt is "leading by intention" - if you think it then it will happen. Once you are reasonably competent leading from your centre (or, as Philsmove says, your heart) then try leading without any contact at all. It is, as Clive says, a very intense connection and you'll find that just by thinking where you want your partner to go they'll be there. Sadly, it doesn't work all the time! I first experienced it at a "Tango and Tai Chi" workshop. A good example of the crossover to Jive is being able to lead a Columbian Walk without any physical contact.


Doesn't that make a huge difference? If you can put your partner on her left foot before turning her out in a First Move you'll get an accurate pivot - if you put her on her right foot you can do all sorts of other things!

Quality of Movement. This is what I'm trying to work on at the moment. In Jive we move so fast that we often don't pay close attention to our balance or the way we get from one foot to the other. Tango, because it can be danced so much slower, gives you the opportunity to really think about the way you are moving. Balance, posture, timing, accuracy, being grounded: just the way you move. Tango encourages me to think of these things and try different ways of achieving them. I then try and bring the lessons into my Jive, no matter that I'm moving more quickly. It's one of the huge differences between the pros and the celebrities on SCD - just the way they move.

Musicality. I find Tango music has many more "layers" than a lot of the stuff I dance Jive to. You can dance to the rhythm or the melody or a particular instrument, it's all OK. You learn to use pauses - not breaks where you stop but pauses where you are still dancing just not moving: you intensify the connection with your partner as the music builds and then just as the connection threatens to overwhelm you, you release it into a step just as the music reaches a crescendo. That sort of thing! (Phew!). At the other end of the scale there are fast secadas, giros, dramatic boleos with which you can play. If you want to use the toys you've got to listen to the music! Tango has made me much more confident about being "brave" in my musical interpretation in Jive although I'm still no good at creating really dramatic moments. (By the way, if I try fast sacadas then I'm quite likely to kick my partner's ankles off).

Sorry, this has turned into something of an essay!

I've done a tiny bit of AT. The lead comes from the chest area whereas with Jive it is much lower - around the waist.

In tai chi you also move from the waist being the centre of gravity. How did that work out in the tango / taichi class?

[JonD]

Thought provoking stuff
You've got me thinking here! I'll try and explain "my take" on what I've been taught, what I've experienced and why it seems to work - I'm no expert and my AT lead is very far from being perfect so take it with a pinch of salt.


I've done a tiny bit of AT. The lead comes from the chest area whereas with Jive it is much lower - around the waist.
I think you can break a lead down into two components - a directional component and a "movement" component. The movement component isn't just about the speed of a step but also includes information about the "intensity" of the movement. An example of what I mean by intensity is that amazing, and very typically AT, way of taking a single slow step with enormous power and control. It's difficult to describe but I can see it in my mind's eye!

For the most part, you use your chest to indicate the directional component, relying on the follower to try and stay square to you. However, I've found it is difficult to generate the movement component just from my chest. I find that I start to lean forward - sticking my chest out, stooping and getting out of balance. I'm very conscious of the imperitive to stay in balance so my lead becomes like cotton wool or tissue paper.

However, if I imagine that I am generating the movement component from much lower down it seems to allow me to communicate and control the movement much more easily. I was taught to think of my belly-button which seems good because it's halfway between my chest and the core of powerful muscles around my pelvis and is above my waist, which is fairly critical. At the same time, I'm staying grounded, looking better and staying on balance. It makes the lead much more positive and gives it more energy. It's kind of like "putting your guts" into the dance! It's worth a try anyway.

My experience is that in MJ the directional and movement components of a lead are most frequently communicated using your arms. I'd agree that there are times when you use your arms like chains and lead from your waist/pelvis area but in many moves, typically "spaghetti" type things like recurring pretzels, all of the lead comes from the arms. Having said that, I have found that I am generating movement much more from my centre than I did before I danced AT - though I'd find it difficult to describe exactly what that means in practice. No, that doesn't mean that I'm doing more of those UCP moves which are led solely from the pelvis!


In tai chi you also move from the waist being the centre of gravity. How did that work out in the tango / taichi class?
The Tai Chi thing was amazing and helped reinforce the need to use your centre in AT. As anyone who has danced AT is bound to have discovered, it's crucial to be in your own balance and know where your axis is. Equally, you need to know where your partner's axis is. The Tai Chi exercises helped that enormously. Also, if you think about the movements a follower makes around her leader in AT it is not disimilar to the circular, "rolling around" each other type movements that you make when playing that Tai Chi "protect your space" game. (Sorry, I haven't done any Tai Chi for real). It's a combination of being in tune with your partner, taking responsibility for your own balance and movement, and commiting to your movement in a controlled way.

I hope that makes some kind of sense!

[spindr]

For the most part, you use your chest to indicate the directional component, relying on the follower to try and stay square to you. However, I've found it is difficult to generate the movement component just from my chest. I find that I start to lean forward - sticking my chest out, stooping and getting out of balance. I'm very conscious of the imperitive to stay in balance so my lead becomes like cotton wool or tissue paper.
Not entirely sure if it's the AT way, but I have tried to lead the movement component before through the chest, by doing a chest isolation (forwards) like in a body wave -- and possibly breathing in (at the same time).

Certainly the breathing shouldn't affect your balance -- but it will "appear" that your chest is moving forwards. Similarly, a chest isolation -- actually I think the isolation is really at the diaphragm level -- shouldn't unbalance you (with practice).

Cheers,
SpinDr.

[JonD]

I try to synchronise my breathing with my partner and use a an almost imperceptible, hopefully invisible, body wave to initiate the first step after any change of direction. I breathe in as the wave commences and breathe out as I ask for the step. As you say, the impulse to move comes from the diaphragm, or belly-button area. In that way the whole upper body moves together. I think a lot of people go wrong in trying to lead only from the upper chest.

The problem is that it's more a mental process than a physical one. It's where I'm thinking that the lead comes from rather than where it is actually being perceived from. I don't stick my tum out and shove my partner around with my gut - if that were the case then a beer-belly would be a positive advantage!

[dancefiend]

You've got me thinking here! I'll try and explain "my take" on what I've been taught, what I've experienced and why it seems to work - I'm no expert and my AT lead is very far from being perfect so take it with a pinch of salt.


I think you can break a lead down into two components - a directional component and a "movement" component. The movement component isn't just about the speed of a step but also includes information about the "intensity" of the movement. An example of what I mean by intensity is that amazing, and very typically AT, way of taking a single slow step with enormous power and control. It's difficult to describe but I can see it in my mind's eye!

For the most part, you use your chest to indicate the directional component, relying on the follower to try and stay square to you. However, I've found it is difficult to generate the movement component just from my chest. I find that I start to lean forward - sticking my chest out, stooping and getting out of balance. I'm very conscious of the imperitive to stay in balance so my lead becomes like cotton wool or tissue paper.

However, if I imagine that I am generating the movement component from much lower down it seems to allow me to communicate and control the movement much more easily. I was taught to think of my belly-button which seems good because it's halfway between my chest and the core of powerful muscles around my pelvis and is above my waist, which is fairly critical. At the same time, I'm staying grounded, looking better and staying on balance. It makes the lead much more positive and gives it more energy. It's kind of like "putting your guts" into the dance! It's worth a try anyway.

My experience is that in MJ the directional and movement components of a lead are most frequently communicated using your arms. I'd agree that there are times when you use your arms like chains and lead from your waist/pelvis area but in many moves, typically "spaghetti" type things like recurring pretzels, all of the lead comes from the arms. Having said that, I have found that I am generating movement much more from my centre than I did before I danced AT - though I'd find it difficult to describe exactly what that means in practice. No, that doesn't mean that I'm doing more of those UCP moves which are led solely from the pelvis!


The Tai Chi thing was amazing and helped reinforce the need to use your centre in AT. As anyone who has danced AT is bound to have discovered, it's crucial to be in your own balance and know where your axis is. Equally, you need to know where your partner's axis is. The Tai Chi exercises helped that enormously. Also, if you think about the movements a follower makes around her leader in AT it is not disimilar to the circular, "rolling around" each other type movements that you make when playing that Tai Chi "protect your space" game. (Sorry, I haven't done any Tai Chi for real). It's a combination of being in tune with your partner, taking responsibility for your own balance and movement, and commiting to your movement in a controlled way.

I hope that makes some kind of sense!


Thanks for your thoughts. I'm in the reverse situation. Having done martial arts similar to tai chi for a number of years and very very little AT. The reason why you want to move from the waist as opposed to from the chest is because in a fight you don't necessarily want to be chest to chest with your opponent. You want to be slightly side on to create a smaller target for them to hit and you might want to come in from their flank. But you can drive your hip towards your opponent (like even styles like judo to throw them off balance). Hence the movement and direction comes from the waist.

I agree fully in dancing or in martial arts - it's important to where your's and your partner's axis are. That way you can control your partner. In MJ - yes alot of ppl lead from their arms - they think of moves as being learned responses in the arms. It's so much better to move from the waist and the arms are just an extension from the core.

[JonD]

I'm ex-military. I haven't done much in the way of formal martial arts - a bit of judo and aikido many, many years ago - but I did do quite a lot of unarmed combat stuff at one stage. It's funny but I was very nervous when I started MJ and consciously referred back to unarmed combat training in order to be more comfortable: I hope that my partners don't think I dance in the same way now!

Your awareness of balance and axis will certainly help tons in AT and I suspect your "quality of movement" is pretty damn good as well - the way in which you move from one strong foot to another. I found it difficult to work from a narrow base rather than a, more instinctive, wide one. Watching videos of me dancing I constantly see "untidy feet" where I've left myself on a wide base. You've got to bring your feet together - "ankles and knees kiss". As you do more AT you'll find yourself recalling those flanking movements as well.

Mind you, I suspect a gentler Tai Chi mindset rather than a "just take them down" approach will attract rather more partners!

[dancefiend]

I'm ex-military. I haven't done much in the way of formal martial arts - a bit of judo and aikido many, many years ago - but I did do quite a lot of unarmed combat stuff at one stage. It's funny but I was very nervous when I started MJ and consciously referred back to unarmed combat training in order to be more comfortable: I hope that my partners don't think I dance in the same way now!

Your awareness of balance and axis will certainly help tons in AT and I suspect your "quality of movement" is pretty damn good as well - the way in which you move from one strong foot to another. I found it difficult to work from a narrow base rather than a, more instinctive, wide one. Watching videos of me dancing I constantly see "untidy feet" where I've left myself on a wide base. You've got to bring your feet together - "ankles and knees kiss". As you do more AT you'll find yourself recalling those flanking movements as well.

Mind you, I suspect a gentler Tai Chi mindset rather than a "just take them down" approach will attract rather more partners!

Friend of mine who does cha cha cha (seriously) has all the posturing down to a t. knees close, step with fairly straight legs, narrow base and with the hips popping out etc. It looks very good and in a comp - would probably beat a lot of competitors easily.

What this gains in style it loses in stability. so your feet migt be less tidy and slightly wider stance but your also probably more mobile and can improvise the foot work more.

flanking movement could be just as simple as taking a cross step like slipping your left foot beind the right - this will **** your chest 90 degress from the girl and giving her a clear path to move.

[Magic Hans]

Personally, my view of Argentine Tango is that the unique style and story precludes any meaningful fusion with MJ (if that's what you're talking about).

The 'feel' of the dance is fundamentally unique.

That's not to say that specific moves cannot be ported to MJ, I simply don't believe that any significant aspect of the 'feel' can be.

[David Bailey]

Personally, my view of Argentine Tango is that the unique style and story precludes any meaningful fusion with MJ (if that's what you're talking about).

The 'feel' of the dance is fundamentally unique.

That's not to say that specific moves cannot be ported to MJ, I simply don't believe that any significant aspect of the 'feel' can be.
Well, I'm not even close to being a novice in AT, so I can hardly express a credible opinion - of course, that won't stop me expressing an opinion (!), but how credible it is, who knows...

And in my opinion, I've been able to think a lot more about leading techniques in MJ by doing AT, so I believe this has helped me develop my leading - for example, the fact that one doesn't need to lead with just the hand, even in MJ.

OK, yes, I did "know" this before, but actually being forced to lead "handless" really makes you concentrate on this technique. A couple of weeks ago my AT teacher made me lead with one fingertip of one hand (other hand behind my back) to force me to lead with the torso / chest. And it worked.

Of course, this is just my experience. As I've said, I'd love to hear from Jango-ers, but they've all been bashfully quiet on this one so far :tears:

As for AT moves, yes of course they can be ported - in fact they have been, I've been taught a couple of ocho-variant moves in regular MJ classes over the past years. But you can port almost any move into MJ.

[Lory]

I've got to share this....

Yesterday, something BIG clicked with my AT, I can't put my finger on what exactly but up until now, the dances we've had have always felt disjointed and i'm consious that we're constantly in practice and concentration mode...it's never like we're actually 'really dancing' :blush:

I realised that some of my problem has been, that the only Tango i've ever seen, is Ballroom Tango, or performance AT. I've never seen real 'social AT' and the difference is very marked.

In the week, there were a couple at the studio where we learn, having a beautifully understated and gentle dance, the lady looked so serene, it was almost hypnotic. :waycool:

So, with that vision of sereness firmly imprinted in my head, I 'let go' and the dance flowed... albeit, we couldn't maintain that feeling for a whole dance and we had a few hiccups but for those moments where it worked, it was fabulous!:drool:

So for those of you who are struggling with AT, like us, we've now had the faintest glimmer of the light, at the end of the very long tunnel and do believe it's going to be worth it in the end! :clap:

Kev managed to put into practice all the linking steps we've learnt:worthy: so we're not having to use up so much space. :waycool: His lead is becoming much lighter but at the same time, far more effective :clap:

[Lynn]

So for those of you who are struggling with AT, like me, I've now had the faintest glimmer of the light, at the end of the very long tunnel and I do believe it's going to be worth it in the end! :clap:Thanks for sharing, that's very encouraging. All I have to do now is track down a good AT class... (in NI that is, I could relocate for a while as someone suggested, pity things like jobs get in the way!)

[philsmove]

.........Yesterday, something BIG clicked with my AT, I can't put my finger on what exactly but up until now, the dances i've had have always felt disjointed and i'm consious that i'm constantly in practice and concentration mode...it's never like I'm actually 'really dancing' :blush:

:
WOW
Almost the same thing happened to me last week



Back on thread :

Watching SCD it has been commented that life skills e.g. athletics can be imported in to dance

So I think the skills you learn in AT can be imported into MJ

I am certainly more "aware" of my partner, since starting AT

It’s difficult to explain this, although the follower always follows

The follower has considerable affect on the way the lead, leads

This may seem obvious but has never been mentioned to me in MJ classes

But comes up regularly in TA class

[Kev F]

I've got to share this....

So, with that vision of sereness firmly imprinted in my head, I 'let go' and the dance flowed... albeit, we couldn't maintain that feeling for a whole dance and we had a few hiccups but for those moments where it worked, it was fabulous!:drool:
To dance tango with a lady who has developed a true sensitivity to the lead is breathtaking. It is a difficult place to find once a MJ background has been established for us all. The temptation for that immediate transfer of weight from one foot to another is a hard discipline to master, for both lead and follow.

To dance MJ with a sprinkling of tango is even more exciting :clap: :drool:
Once we felt that connection with our AT it seemed to involve itself within the MJ almost instinctively. We are by no means experts but we managed to incorporate both ocho para atras, sandwich and a goucha without breaking the flow of the dance. In fact my partner looked bl**dy fantastic. Those simple, but stylised steps really added a new dynamic element to our dances.
Even the decorations & embellishments were trouble free and I shall consider dancing without shin pads next time :rofl:

There is also a variation on the element of style with say the ochos that can be played with by the lady. Even though we are taught that the ankles should be close and just breeze by each other........with the MJ it allows a more flamboyant style of ocho to be toyed with at the ladies discretion :sick: (No smilie for head in hands :rofl: )

But the joy of mixing the dances is the experimental process which provides us with so much fun...and the occasional bruised shin...pulled back...bashed nose...crushed toe etc etc. :D

[Lynn]

OK, I a friend who has done more AT than me (not difficult) will be round later. I'm thinking of rolling up the mat and seeing if I can follow anything (I do have a CD of AT music). Might be a total disaster but might refresh the little bit that I did learn.

[Lory]

To dance tango with a lady who has developed a true sensitivity to the lead is breathtaking.
Oi! Who else have you been pracising with? :devil:

:wink: :hug:

I've found some nice AT clips, which are longer than the usual 10 seconds worth!

CLICK HERE (http://www.sftango.com/tango_demos.html)

[JonD]

Good stuff
I totally agree and it's great that some of us are sharing the adventure!


I've got to share this....

Almost the same thing happened to me last week
And to me last night! Julie and I spent 2 hours practicing late yesterday afternoon, had a meal and then went to the Sunday night milonga. When we started to dance everything was going wrong - I thought I was leading one thing, Julie was doing something totally different, our embrace was ****-eyed, I couldn't pivot without wobbling - terrible. After a couple of hours and some dances with other people we suddenly rediscovered our connection. It was like a lightening bolt. We took up our embrace and suddenly the connection was back, stronger than it has been for a while. I think we've been concentrating so much on details we'd forgotten to really dance with each other. We forgot everything and just danced - pure bliss!

[Lory]

We forgot everything and just danced - pure bliss!
Mmmm :drool: :clap:


I've found some nice AT clips, which are longer than the usual 10 seconds worth!


This one's a goody too! (http://www.ar8.com.fr/bajotango/bajotango.html) :worthy: :drool:

[garthmartin]

OK, I a friend who has done more AT than me (not difficult) will be round later. I'm thinking of rolling up the mat and seeing if I can follow anything (I do have a CD of AT music). Might be a total disaster but might refresh the little bit that I did learn.

The mat was rolled up and we danced AT for a long time, really good to have someone to practice with again:wink: :wink:
I agree with Lynn we need more exposure to AT in NI, I go to Dublin where there is a good scene

I look forward to next time :cool:

[Zebra Woman]

In the week, there were a couple at the studio where we learn, having a beautifully understated and gentle dance, the lady looked so serene, it was almost hypnotic.

So, with that vision of sereness firmly imprinted in my head, I 'let go' and the dance flowed... albeit, we couldn't maintain that feeling for a whole dance and we had a few hiccups but for those moments where it worked, it was fabulous!


That's rings so true, lucky you. Makes me so glad to be a woman, we really do get a good deal there :clap: .


Mmmm :drool: :clap:


This one's a goody too! (http://www.ar8.com.fr/bajotango/bajotango.html) :worthy: :drool:

Mmmm very nice :worthy: . I found it was very suddenly sexy towards the end, despite the fact that the guy looks a bit like Meat Loaf....

I have done so little AT, I don't really know much about the technicalities at all. I have done more fake Tango than real Tango. The memories of the dances are etched into my mind very strongly though.

I love the direct heart to heart power of the Tango. If I am thinking about following it is just a dance, but if I can truly surrender myself to the lead then something amazing happens - I feel raw and exposed and end up super hot with a racing heart and shaking. Sometimes the rush has been so powerful I have had to step away and calm down.

To me, Tango makes MJ feel kind of insulated, like dancing with a coat on compared to dancing naked. In Tango I particularly love the power of the pauses and the joint breath that you build up just before moving OOOooooh...:drool:

Fast footwork looks fantasic, but I'm more into the feel of the dance so simple slow and teasing moves do it for me. That's the bit I liked best in the video - that last slow bit when she was all flushed. :drool:

ZW

[Lynn]

I agree with Lynn we need more exposure to AT in NI, I go to Dublin where there is a good scene

I look forward to next time :cool: Woo hoo! Heard last night that AT classes are starting in January in Belfast! :clap: :clap: Will def get along to those.

Garth, thanks for the dances, and thanks for letting me attempt my first ever attempt at leading MJ in freestyle at the swing practice. OK it wasn't great:blush: , but I think I made it through a whole track and you followed very well! :whistle:

[JonD]

I love the direct heart to heart power of the Tango. If I am thinking about following it is just a dance, but if I can truly surrender myself to the lead then something amazing happens - I feel raw and exposed and end up super hot with a racing heart and shaking. Sometimes the rush has been so powerful I have had to step away and calm down. Eloquently put! That's exactly it - it's what happened to Julie and I on Sunday once we stopped thinking about the lead/follow and technique stuff and just dissolved into the dance. It happens to both lead and follow and can be a bit scary when it happens with a complete stranger (particularly if you're not sure if it happened to your partner or it was just you)!

I agree about the difference with MJ. I love MJ but describe it as a "party" where AT is a passion. MJ seems more lighthearted than AT so you just don't get that "naked" connection with your partner. I've had some wonderfully intense MJ dances but in AT the intensity seems magnified still further.

[Zebra Woman]

Eloquently put! That's exactly it - it's what happened to Julie and I on Sunday once we stopped thinking about the lead/follow and technique stuff and just dissolved into the dance. It happens to both lead and follow and can be a bit scary when it happens with a complete stranger (particularly if you're not sure if it happened to your partner or it was just you)!

I agree about the difference with MJ. I love MJ but describe it as a "party" where AT is a passion. MJ seems more lighthearted than AT so you just don't get that "naked" connection with your partner. I've had some wonderfully intense MJ dances but in AT the intensity seems magnified still further.

Yes it's reaching the point of giving up trying/caring/thinking that's so hard. I have to trust the lead and also it helps if I'm really really tired. You know - too tired to think anymore, too tired to resist, and definitely too tired to worry about what anybody might think.

I think the AT passion can be a terrifying force. Well it certainly scares the hell outta me! Sometimes I fear my passion may be visible to an onlooker and mis-read as something else. Or worse still, mis-read by my partner! I think the people on this thread probably would not mis-read it. But for me I need a certain level of understanding with someone, before I can truly bare my soul and dance Tango with them (not that I can, but in my fake way... if you know what I mean). More so than with MJ.

ZW

[philsmove]

Yes it's reaching the point of giving up trying/caring/thinking that's so hard................................
ZW

An interesting choice of words :nice:

I’m just back from a lunchtime AT class

The teacher spent a lot of time explaining about “caring” for your partner

“Only if you care for you partner will they trust you

Only when they trust you will the dance progress”


Signs of a Tango addict .....Your descriptions of tango shifts from, unbound enthusiasm, to you wouldn't understand

[JonD]

I’m just back from a lunchtime AT class I'm jealous!


Sometimes I fear my passion may be visible to an onlooker and mis-read as something else. Or worse still, mis-read by my partner! I once mis-read an intense connection with a partner - fortunately she understood! And I've been mis-read myself in turn and hope I was as understanding (I was very flattered though - I rather liked it)! That's taught me to always see the passion in the context of the dance. Somehow that makes it even more special: you can share this intensity and be incredibly open with someone you don't know but it's in a "safe container". It only happens rarely but it is the most incredible feeling.

Right, that does it. You've inspired me. I'm going to dance Tango tonight!

[Lory]

I have to trust the lead and also it helps if I'm really really tired. You know - too tired to think anymore, too tired to resist, and definitely too tired to worry about what anybody might think.
Or just very very relaxed ;)


I think the AT passion can be a terrifying force. Well it certainly scares the hell outta me! Sometimes I fear my passion may be visible to an onlooker and mis-read as something else.
:yeah:

Something's dawned on me since Sunday (the day when 'something clicked' ...


Yesterday, something BIG clicked with my AT, I can't put my finger on what exactly
And I think you may be part way there....

After an afternoon of completely lush music, taking me to a calm, relaxed and tranquil state of mind and being amongst people who are equally as mad about dancing as me, witnessing the passion on their faces :devil: as they danced with different 'like minded' partners, just enjoying the music, connection and the feeling of oneness for that moment, enabled me to let go.:clap: :clap: :clap:

I was no longer conscious of any people around us :blush:

Within our dances we managed to created a few perfect but very fragile bubbles around us, which insulated us from all the outside influences, sadly most burst after only moments :tears: but for those moments, those were the most perfect bubbles in the world!:waycool: :drool:

My wish for the future.........a bubble that will last a whole track! :innocent:

[Zebra Woman]

An interesting choice of words :nice:

I’m just back from a lunchtime AT class

The teacher spent a lot of time explaining about “caring” for your partner

“Only if you care for you partner will they trust you

Only when they trust you will the dance progress”


Agree Phil, I meant letting go of 'caring' in the sense of worrying about whether I was good enough or following well.

Not 'caring' as in caring :hug: :kiss: .




After an afternoon of completely lush music, taking me to a calm, relaxed and tranquil state of mind and being amongst people who are equally as mad about dancing as me, witnessing the passion on their faces as they danced with different 'like minded' partners, just enjoying the music, connection and the feeling of oneness for that moment, enabled me to let go.

:yeah: I saw you and you saw me (for one) :wink:

I think that kind of atmosphere has a huge effect me. Respect to Greg for keeping the fab music flowing :worthy: - one duff track and the whole thing could collapse!

There is a great feeling of safety too. I know that whatever happens it's OK. I feel more inclined to experiment there.

ZW

[JonD]

I think that kind of atmosphere has a huge effect me. Respect to Greg for keeping the fab music flowing - one duff track and the whole thing could collapse! It's amazing when you get the whole dance floor sharing a connection - I've never known that in MJ. In Nijmegen last New Year there was an amazing period of just a few minutes when I had that wonderful connection with Julie and felt a really close connection with everyone else on the floor at the same time - it's difficult to explain! Stefan was DJing, I can't remember exactly what he played but he built this incredible atmosphere of caring and "stillness" and belonging. Then he played Lou Reed's "Perfect Day". As the track ended there was complete silence for a moment and then the whole floor sort of gave a collective sigh. We all turned to the DJ booth and started applauding (Stefan was so pleased he was like a dog with two tails!). It was an amazing shared moment of caring and connection and delight. Just wonderful - I've experienced something similar on a couple of other occasions but nothing as intense or glorious. Ah, the power of a great DJ!


I saw you and you saw me Where do you dance, where does Greg DJ? I've got to come and visit!

[philsmove]

It's amazing when you get the whole dance floor sharing a connection - I've never known that in MJ.

Only witnessed it once the DJ played “these boots are made for walking”

And every one did walking moves round the floor

[Ash]

I’m looking for a tall tango dancer (at least 5’ 9”) for a short film. You don’t have to be an expert-but have a good feel for it, and be able to act.

Ash
:)

[David Bailey]

Just thought I'd update this.

I've been trying to purposely add some AT styling into my MJ over the past week or so (insert appropriate caveat as to my lack of any experience of what style in AT means).

I've noticed that AT is very good for pause / slow sections of tracks - it keeps you moving and it gives a sense of continuation, even if you're just stepping forward and back, or walking around each other.

I've also noticed that it's damned tricky to lead a lady into forward ochos unless she's "in tango mode", and almost impossible to lead a lady into backward ochos. Of course, that could just be me being cr&p at leading ochos...

Apart from all the stuff we've been rambling on about connection, AT is also helping me think about my position at all times (rather than just at the start and end of a beat / bar), and about "shapes". (Note: "thinking" of course doesn't equal "doing anything about it", but hey, it's a start,)

I've also noticed how easy it is to confuse even a topflight follower by just walking forward... :devil:

Anybody else want to comment?

[WittyBird]

Anybody else want to comment?

Not really :rofl:

[Zebra Woman]

Just thought I'd update this.

I've been trying to purposely add some AT styling into my MJ over the past week or so (insert appropriate caveat as to my lack of any experience of what style in AT means).

I've noticed that AT is very good for pause / slow sections of tracks - it keeps you moving and it gives a sense of continuation, even if you're just stepping forward and back, or walking around each other.

I've also noticed that it's damned tricky to lead a lady into forward ochos unless she's "in tango mode", and almost impossible to lead a lady into backward ochos. Of course, that could just be me being cr&p at leading ochos...

Apart from all the stuff we've been rambling on about connection, AT is also helping me think about my position at all times (rather than just at the start and end of a beat / bar), and about "shapes". (Note: "thinking" of course doesn't equal "doing anything about it", but hey, it's a start,)

I've also noticed how easy it is to confuse even a topflight follower by just walking forward... :devil:

Anybody else want to comment?

Leading a lady into tango style ochos from MJ is EXACTLY the sort of thing Will and Kate are teaching at Jango.

I wish more men would come along and learn this so as you say, when the music dictates the tango option is available.

ZW

[philsmove]

Just thought I'd update this.
I've been trying to purposely add some AT styling into my MJ over the past week or so (insert appropriate caveat as to my lack of any experience of what style in AT means)........................................Anyb ody else want to comment?
Not only have I been trying to incorporate AT into MJ
It seems to be creeping in, of its own accord
I have noticed my feet stay closer to the floor and
I certainly pay attention to the music
Best of all I seem to asked for a second dance more often So I guess my MJ is improving

[David Bailey]

Leading a lady into tango style ochos from MJ is EXACTLY the sort of thing Will and Kate are teaching at Jango.
OK, OK, I'll get the DVD, it's on my to-do list... :rolleyes:

[Feelingpink]

Leading a lady into tango style ochos from MJ is EXACTLY the sort of thing Will and Kate are teaching at Jango.

I wish more men would come along and learn this so as you say, when the music dictates the tango option is available.

ZWSo does this mean that DJ is going to go to Jango tonight, in the absence of a work commute excuse? :devil:

[Clive Long]

Anybody else want to comment?

Not really :rofl:
A first!

Can we please have this post preserved for posterity?

CRL

(I like weginald and woger myself)

[David Bailey]

So does this mean that DJ is going to go to Jango tonight, in the absence of a work commute excuse? :devil:
The topic of this thread is about dance theory and development rather than social events. And I can't be the only one to be bored stiff by all this "Come to Jango, DJ" banter, surely?

But if it'll guarantee to shut people up about where the f**k I choose to dance, and if it means we can talk about, you know, actual dance technique, then I'd be tempted.

If you read this thread, you'll notice that I've several times asked for contributions from Jango-ites about how this input works in practice, none of which have been answered. I even started an entire thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7313) about it, to encourage contributions. Which, of course, immediately attracted the predictable knee-jerk reaction...

I'd still like contributions from Jango-ites about how they incorporate the AT techniques they learn into MJ. Possibly this will be useful to the other thousands of people, a couple of who may be reading this, and who don't go to one venue in West London, because they're in, for example, Scotland. :rolleyes:


(I like weginald and woger myself)
I know the truth! (What's it worth? :) )

[Zebra Woman]

The topic of this thread is about dance theory and development rather than social events. And I can't be the only one to be bored stiff by all this "Come to Jango, DJ" banter, surely?


If you read this thread, you'll notice that I've several times asked for contributions from Jango-ites about how this input works in practice, none of which have been answered. I even started an entire thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7313) about it, to encourage contributions. Which, of course, immediately attracted the predictable knee-jerk reaction...

I'd still like contributions from Jango-ites about how they incorporate the AT techniques they learn into MJ. Possibly this will be useful to the other thousands of people, a couple of who may be reading this, and who don't go to one venue in West London, because they're in, for example, Scotland. :rolleyes:


)

I don't think you would attempt to continue your journey learning tango from this point onwards by correspondence. Would you David?

To me you seem to want to learn how to build tango into MJ by correspondence.

It seems bizarre to expect Jango types to put loads of effort writing down on this thread how they attempt to lead transitions between Tango and MJ when there is a perfectly good DVD that teaches this.

Can you come back to us after you've watched it perhaps?



Note to Franck : No Amir hasn't asked my to type this

[Feelingpink]

... If you read this thread, you'll notice that I've several times asked for contributions from Jango-ites about how this input works in practice, none of which have been answered. I even started an entire thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7313) about it, to encourage contributions. Which, of course, immediately attracted the predictable knee-jerk reaction...

Before you get quite so high on your horse, I also pointed out earlier in this thread that your original post asked for contributions from those with AT experience (not Jango experience). As for your other comments, I'm with ZW.

[Gadget]

Possibly this will be useful to the other thousands of people, a couple of who may be reading this, and who don't go to one venue in West London, because they're in, for example, Scotland. :rolleyes:
Why should we want to? :devil: We get all the best teachers in other forms to show us some stuff... our teachers gain from it... we improve. {:worthy:}

Of course AT can be incorporated int MJ. As can Hip-hop. As can Flamenco. As can Morrice Dancing. Modern Jive defies definition - it's simply dancing. {IMHO}
At the core of leading within AT is being able to lead the follower from a close embrace using every point of contact as a lead point and using them to lead the follower's center through her center rather than through her hands and arms as is the norm within MJ. You could use this concept in amost every other form of partner dance. There is also the format of the music and learing how to phrase moves to match it.
In Salsa, Leading is about positioning your partner and being aware of them in relation to the rhythm and the music.
In WCS the lead is about taking your partner with you and finding larger patterns in the music. {in summary :rolleyes: - we're not discussing WCS - it's AT!}
Martial arts, pilates, yoga, etc... all form greater understanding of your own body and controll over it.
...
there are concepts and different areas of "focus" in all forms of dancing - each can be used to improve your own. I've said it before and I'll say it again: {life moves prety fast...:blush: wrong quote }... Modern Jive is simply Dancing. Anything that improves your connection with your partner, your self or the music can be used to improve it.

[Baruch]

Of course AT can be incorporated int MJ. As can Hip-hop. As can Flamenco. As can Morrice Dancing.
A crossover style with influences from Modern Jive, Tango and Morris Dancing? Now that I'd like to see! :rofl:

We could call it Mango......:whistle:

[spindr]

Before you get quite so high on your horse, I also pointed out earlier in this thread that your original post asked for contributions from those with AT experience (not Jango experience). As for your other comments, I'm with ZW.
I do MJ, have done a Jango class or two (when it's been on-tour), have done other Tango/Jive combinations, and have done some AT.

The difference that I would suggest is that MJ lead is significantly "louder" than in AT (hardly surprising, given that moves are led when far apart) -- if I led an MJ ocho in AT, then this would be considered "deafening".

The other difference is that "ochos" are generally taught as a *complete* move in MJ -- in AT the whole emphasis wasn't on the ocho, it was on the lead/follow of a rotation, then a side-step, then another rotation to face, then maybe a further rotation to either continue the ocho, or change its direction.

I would be very careful of transfering an MJ tango-style move to AT -- you need to be careful when/how you dance it, e.g. if you learn a show tango "move" in MJ, then it may not fit well in a milonga.

SpinDr.

[Lynn]

The other difference is that "ochos" are generally taught as a *complete* move in MJ -- in AT the whole emphasis wasn't on the ocho, it was on the lead/follow of a rotation, then a side-step, then another rotation to face, then maybe a further rotation to either continue the ocho, or change its direction. That is how it is presented on the Jango DVD IIR - you lead the pivot and then the step, then the next pivot - its not a set 'move' - the lady keeps following till the man leads something else.

[spindr]

That is how it is presented on the Jango DVD IIR - you lead the pivot and then the step, then the next pivot - its not a set 'move' - the lady keeps following till the man leads something else.
There's the chance of the follower "rushing" a combined second pivot -- which is why I broke it in to two pieces:
1). a rotation to face parallel.
2). a potential pause, etc.
3). a possible rotation to continue the motion *OR* something completely different.

SpinDr.

[ducasi]

I've also noticed that it's damned tricky to lead a lady into forward ochos unless she's "in tango mode", and almost impossible to lead a lady into backward ochos. Of course, that could just be me being cr&p at leading ochos... As a really, really poor follower, I've been led in ochos, and all I was in was "panic mode."

At least I think that's what he was trying to get me to do! :blush:

(Can't remember if they were forwards or backwards, sorry!)

[David Bailey]

To me you seem to want to learn how to build tango into MJ by correspondence.
Nope - I'm developing my own style by a number of mechanisms, including classes, freestyles, the occasional bit of thinking, and discussions. This being the "discussion" part of it - or are you saying it's pointless talking about how to dance on this forum?


It seems bizarre to expect Jango types to put loads of effort writing down on this thread how they attempt to lead transitions between Tango and MJ when there is a perfectly good DVD that teaches this.
You could say that about any dance form surely? Why bother talking about dance at all when we can learn it from DVDs or go to classes?

Again, this thread is dedicated to talking about development of a certain aspect of dance technique, and I for one have found it useful and informative - for example, in the first page alone there were thoughtful and content-rich posts from Franck, Philsmove, JonD and Clive.

Recently, we've had substantial contributions from Gadget and SpinDr. I don't think those posts are pointless, they're helpful to me at least, and I appreciated the "loads of effort" people have put into contributing towards understanding of this area.


Can you come back to us after you've watched it perhaps?
I will definitely continue to talk about this area, and hopefully the DVD will help.


Before you get quite so high on your horse, I also pointed out earlier in this thread that your original post asked for contributions from those with AT experience (not Jango experience).
Well, here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=165225&postcount=30) I said:

actually, I'm surprised no-one from Jango has popped in to comment yet...?)

Then Later on (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170124&postcount=50), I said:

I'd really like to hear from some Jango-istas (betcha never thought you'd see me say that ) about this area; amazingly, I've re-read the "Monday Night Jango" thread, and I'm still no wiser about the, you know, dancing part of it.

Finally I tried (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=175141&postcount=67):

Of course, this is just my experience. As I've said, I'd love to hear from Jango-ers, but they've all been bashfully quiet on this one so far :tears:

And then I started a thread about it, specifically to get discussion going about the dance technique. So it's not as if I haven't tried very hard to get input from Jango-goers.

But it seems easier to slag me off than talk about the dancing. (Oh, and negative repping me does not impress me with the warm, open and welcoming nature of the Jango culture).

[David Bailey]

(Can't remember if they were forwards or backwards, sorry!)
If your moving foot was going in front of your pivoting foot, that's forward - if behind, that's backwards :)

[David Bailey]

{ snip stuff I found useful :) }
I would be very careful of transfering an MJ tango-style move to AT -- you need to be careful when/how you dance it, e.g. if you learn a show tango "move" in MJ, then it may not fit well in a milonga.
Actually, I never even thought of porting anything from MJ to AT :what: - hmmm, I wonder if this could be another thread... :)

Although it's likely my AT attempts look laughably MJ-ish :tears:

[ducasi]

If your moving foot was going in front of your pivoting foot, that's forward - if behind, that's backwards :)
Fortunately in my 10 months of dancing I've learnt the difference between forwards and backwards. I haven't yet learnt how to improve my memory while I'm in panic mode. ;)

[Baruch]

A crossover style with influences from Modern Jive, Tango and Morris Dancing? Now that I'd like to see! :rofl:

We could call it Mango......:whistle:
Other possibilities:

Clango (clog dancing and tango)
Clive (clog dancing and jive)
Mallet (morris dancing and ballet)

Any more.....?

[philsmove]

Any more.....?

Qango- No yet definition yet, the committee is still out

[JonD]

Any more.....?
FIASCO - Flamenco Indian Appalachian Salsa Combination

[David Bailey]

Revisiting this thread...

I've now done more AT, but I'm still no nearer actually using AT techniques in MJ.

However, I can now lead any good-enough MJ follower, even someone who's not done AT before*, into AT moves to an adequate (right rhythm) track. I can lead forward, back, side, and foward / backwards ochos, all without too much trouble, and can make a fair stab at controlling both the tempo and the weight positioning of my partner.

I can't lead normal-speed giros to a partner who's never done AT - and honestly, I'm not sure if these are even leadable, in that they require a little bit of knowledge (i.e. that an ocho can be followed by a side step rather than another ocho). However, a good enough AT lead may well be able to lead these in MJ.

Where I'm still having trouble (6 months on) is quickly switching (on a step-by-step basis) from AT to MJ and vice versa. At the moment, I need a few seconds to get into AT mode, so I can't just freestyle and add in a proper AT sequence / step.

However, I think this is possible - it'll just take me another few years to get there. As the saying goes, the journey continues...

* Exhibit 1 - Minnie M, I had a lovely Tango dance with her.

[Lynn]

Where I'm still having trouble (6 months on) is quickly switching (on a step-by-step basis) from AT to MJ and vice versa. At the moment, I need a few seconds to get into AT mode, so I can't just freestyle and add in a proper AT sequence / step. Likewise, and even more so the other way. As a follower if I am in 'tango mode' I won't move off the foot I have been placed on by the lead (mostly - OK I know in AT I was anticpating and not having my weight in the right place etc but for most of the dance I do wait). And if I have just been dancing tango (or trying to, I still feel a bit of a fraud talking about 'dancing tango' as not sure I'm actually there yet) or if a tangoy track comes on I can go into that mode in MJ not every step and weight change is led, so I need to move myself at time and not wait on one foot. (I love waiting on one foot, esp when being led those little tiny pivots.)