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MartinHarper
20th-October-2005, 11:48 AM
Currently, the way I lead ends up having big gaps in it. I can lead my partner well enough on whole Ceroc counts, but in between the counts, it often feels that I'm not really connected with her (in a lead/follow sense). This is thrown into stark relief when I attempt to do anything with a double-time or syncopated element to it.

Fortunately, most moves only really involve leading on/around whole counts, but this is really throwing me for those moves that don't, such as JiveBrummie's "Pretzel Pulse", syncopated arm jives, and the like. They do work sometimes, but my failure rate is quite high.

Does anyone have any useful tips/exercises/ideas for improving this aspect of MJ? Am I even on the right track?

TiggsTours
20th-October-2005, 12:03 PM
Currently, the way I lead ends up having big gaps in it. I can lead my partner well enough on whole Ceroc counts, but in between the counts, it often feels that I'm not really connected with her (in a lead/follow sense). This is thrown into stark relief when I attempt to do anything with a double-time or syncopated element to it.

Fortunately, most moves only really involve leading on/around whole counts, but this is really throwing me for those moves that don't, such as JiveBrummie's "Pretzel Pulse", syncopated arm jives, and the like. They do work sometimes, but my failure rate is quite high.

Does anyone have any useful tips/exercises/ideas for improving this aspect of MJ? Am I even on the right track?
I'm not really sure if I've understood you right, but do you mean during breaks in the music? If this is the case, this is the girls opportunity to play, and its really up to her at that point to make sure you're comfortable with staying involved. To stay involved you could either, in the words of the great Nigel "Stand back and admire the view" or play along too! If she's off doing some sexy wiggles, I'd say enjoy the view, in a manly stance, if she's doing some cool footwork, try to do the same, or something similar, if she's standing there like a lemon, she doesn't do "play", just lead her through the break. Most music is designed so that the same beats in the music (I don't know the correct terminology, I'm not a musician!) will follow through the whole break, and continue seamlessly at the end.

If I haven't understood you right, then I think the only way to really get any guidance is to ask a girl after you've danced with her, she'll know where things went wrong, or if you're just imagining it.

Hope that helps.

Franck
20th-October-2005, 12:32 PM
Currently, the way I lead ends up having big gaps in it. I can lead my partner well enough on whole Ceroc counts, but in between the counts, it often feels that I'm not really connected with her (in a lead/follow sense). This is thrown into stark relief when I attempt to do anything with a double-time or syncopated element to it.

Fortunately, most moves only really involve leading on/around whole counts, but this is really throwing me for those moves that don't, such as JiveBrummie's "Pretzel Pulse", syncopated arm jives, and the like. They do work sometimes, but my failure rate is quite high.

Does anyone have any useful tips/exercises/ideas for improving this aspect of MJ? Am I even on the right track?I am a great evangelist of the continuous connection. Not an easy skill to develop, but so rewarding when it works. Without being able to walk you through and test your current connection, the advice I can give will be very general.

First and foremost, before attempting a continuous connection, make sure that your connection is as light as possible. Maintaining a strong frame / connection all the time is tiring and eventually painful, as well as losing the benefits anyway.
Try different types of 'frame', for example:

- in a first move / ballroom hold
- using both hands: one holding normally, the other on the lady's shoulder
- holding both hands

and in the above context, become aware of the permanent compression or leverage. Typically, one hand will be pulling (leverage) whilst the other is pushing (compression). Balancing the 2 hands will allow you to reach a neutral, yet connected status, you can then increase one or the other to control momentum.

Once you are aware of it, and have worked out if your partner is matching your connection (if she is not, then it will be much harder) you can start more subtle connections, for example, you can combine compression and leverage inside the standard MJ hand-hold (leverage with the index finger against the lady's fingers and compression against the back of her hand with the Major). Once you have balance, you can again control very accurately your partner's direction and momentum by increasing the level of compression / leverage subtly.

If that makes no sense written down, make your way to the BFG on Saturday and join the Lead & Follow principles workshop :wink:

CJ
20th-October-2005, 12:41 PM
If that makes no sense written down, make your way to the BFG on Saturday and join the Lead & Follow principles workshop :wink:

MODERATOR!!!!!!!!!!!

Someone is shamelessly plugging their event, Moderator!!!!

Tell them, tell them off, tell them good!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl:

That aside, I don't think I understand this concept, but what Franck is saying is making sense so this might be one of those things that I knew but didn't know I knew.:confused:

Help. Moderator!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MartinHarper
20th-October-2005, 01:01 PM
I'm not really sure if I've understood you right, but do you mean during breaks in the music?

Nope, sorry.

To give an example, take the first move:
* I get the girl coming forward, and there's normally some nice connection there. (on/before "1" in Ceroc count)
* Then there's a vague bit as I take my hand to my shoulder, and we're not very connected (between "1" and "2")
* Then we seem to reconnect, and I get to twist her out to my side (on/before "2")
* Then there's another vague-ish bit as she twists (between "2" and "3")

And so on, through the dance. It's not completely universal - just a pattern.


If I haven't understood you right, then I think the only way to really get any guidance is to ask a girl after you've danced with her, she'll know where things went wrong, or if you're just imagining it..

That might read to her as unsolicited negative feedback.
I do see where you're coming from, though - these things are normally easier to talk about in person.

TiggsTours
20th-October-2005, 01:08 PM
Nope, sorry.

To give an example, take the first move:
* I get the girl coming forward, and there's normally some nice connection there. (on/before "1" in Ceroc count)
* Then there's a vague bit as I take my hand to my shoulder, and we're not very connected (between "1" and "2")
* Then we seem to reconnect, and I get to twist her out to my side (on/before "2")
* Then there's another vague-ish bit as she twists (between "2" and "3")

And so on, through the dance. It's not completely universal - just a pattern.



That might read to her as unsolicited negative feedback.
I do see where you're coming from, though - these things are normally easier to talk about in person.
Still don't really understand then, difficult to know unless you've experienced it.

I personally wouldn't take it as negative feedback, if someone were to ask me if I could help them out with where they feel its going wrong, in fact, I'd take it very positively, that they obviously value my opinion, and feel that they rate me high enough to be someone they would like feedback from.

doc martin
20th-October-2005, 01:28 PM
That aside, I don't think I understand this concept, but what Franck is saying is making sense so this might be one of those things that I knew but didn't know I knew.:confused:
Are you sure about this CJ? Cos it may be one of those things that you don't know. So now either you know you know you know or you don't know you don't know you don't know. :sick:

And unless you do the class you'll never know whether you know or don't know.

I think..........:confused:

doc martin
20th-October-2005, 01:34 PM
Still don't really understand then, difficult to know unless you've experienced it.
I see what MH is getting at. It may be something that the lead is more aware of than the follow. It may not even be possible to maintain the connection in the way MH is thinking as there has to be some latitude for the follow in between the elements of the lead. I am only speculating there and I am willing to be corrected by someone who says they do maintain the connection through the half beat.

I personally wouldn't take it as negative feedback, if someone were to ask me if I could help them out with where they feel its going wrong, in fact, I'd take it very positively, that they obviously value my opinion, and feel that they rate me high enough to be someone they would like feedback from.
So maybe if the follow isn't so aware then they would not be able to give feedback?

Gadget
20th-October-2005, 01:51 PM
To give an example, take the first move:
* I get the girl coming forward, and there's normally some nice connection there. (on/before "1" in Ceroc count)
* Then there's a vague bit as I take my hand to my shoulder, and we're not very connected (between "1" and "2")
* Then we seem to reconnect, and I get to twist her out to my side (on/before "2")
* Then there's another vague-ish bit as she twists (between "2" and "3")
Two things are happening:
1) You are not leading through the whole movement - you just start the lead and expect the follower to catch up with you at the end point
2) The follower is anticipating and feeling the start of the movement, therefore assuming that the end point will be the same as it has a million times before - so just goes to it.

To combat this:
1) Time the movement smoothly - start it and continue the movement at the same pace so that it ends dead on the beat. This may involve adding in a bit of tension to continue pulling the follower or a bit of tension to prevent them from rushing into you. It may involve both in the same movement.
Try keeping the same tension(/compression) that you started the movement with all throught the movement, even if it means you arrive too soon - you can keep moving (your body) back/forward to keep the tension and hault on the beat.

2) Don't do the same thing a million times. Repetative movements drill into the followers 'this is the way it should be done: this is the way I will do it' Try leading a cattapult, exiting on the right instead of left and you will feel what I mean.

Ghost
20th-October-2005, 01:51 PM
Allowing for the fact that I might have completely misunderstood what you're talking about....

I'd recommend trying the following (actually I'd recommend them anyway)

Ask a friendly lady to spare a bit of time with you to practice off the dance floor. Basically get her to hold up her hands like she's going to play pat-a-cake. Put your hand flat into hers (so you look like 2 mime artists) and slowly move your hands. She has to follow your movement. Don't worry about moving her body or actually leading her anywhere, just move her hands. Do it nice and slowly and concentrate on feeling the connection and keeping it constant. Try out different curves, lines and circles and see how it affects the connection. Try diffferent speeds. Then try it just walking backwards and forwards. Then moving around the place. (This is basically Push Hands / Sticky Hands from Tai Chi and Wing Chun. Aikido's good for keeping a constant lead while whirling someone around - might be worth paying a visit to any local teachers). I realise this is different to the Ceroc lead, but I find it easier to pick up the nuances with the hands in pat-a-cak position. Once you've got he hang of it, you can pretty quickly transfer the understanding of it across to a Ceroc handhold.

The second thing is to treat the move as being one continuous flow rather than several steps. So in your example
* I get the girl coming forward, and there's normally some nice connection there. (on/before "1" in Ceroc count)
* Then there's a vague bit as I take my hand to my shoulder, and we're not very connected (between "1" and "2")

treat them both as one continuous curve (kind of like a j). Likewise when it reaches your shoulder rather than do a stop-start to reverse direction do a small loop to continue on. I like to think of a Ceroc dance as a single, albeit rather long, move (unless you put in breaks etc).

Hope this helps,
Christopher

El Salsero Gringo
20th-October-2005, 02:29 PM
Nope, sorry.

To give an example, take the first move:
* I get the girl coming forward, and there's normally some nice connection there. (on/before "1" in Ceroc count)
* Then there's a vague bit as I take my hand to my shoulder, and we're not very connected (between "1" and "2")
* Then we seem to reconnect, and I get to twist her out to my side (on/before "2")
* Then there's another vague-ish bit as she twists (between "2" and "3")

And so on, through the dance. It's not completely universal - just a pattern.
Doesn't it depend a great deal on your partner? Once she's stepping in, unless she keeps the tension in the arm there's not much you can do about it until she decides to reconnect with you.

johnthehappyguy
20th-October-2005, 02:49 PM
Doesn't it depend a great deal on your partner? Once she's stepping in, unless she keeps the tension in the arm there's not much you can do about it until she decides to reconnect with you.

got to agree with ESG,

I have danced with around three women where I have been able to feel continuous connection.

The rest of the time I have not been as compatable as with those three.
Best of luck, when it happens it is great.

john:nice:

MartinHarper
20th-October-2005, 03:46 PM
Doesn't it depend a great deal on your partner? Once she's stepping in, unless she keeps the tension in the arm there's not much you can do about it until she decides to reconnect with you.

This reasoning is why I'm hesitant to bring it up following a dance - my partner might think I'm complaining about her tension or some such.

I'm sure you're right, but I have the feeling I'm not doing as much as I can from my end. It's interesting to read the comments here, despite not being able to get to the BFG... :dramatic-floods-of-tears:

LMC
20th-October-2005, 03:58 PM
Martin, how about asking one of your favourite most-trusted followers whether they find a move difficult with you that they can easily follow with other leads? - and at what point exactly they feel that they are "losing" you? It could be that the loss of connection is down to them - but if you work that out between you then hopefully it won't be seen as a criticism as you have asked them from the point of view of *you* improving your lead.

I know my connection needs a *lot* of work - but if the lead maintains tension I can usually follow a quadruple reverse pretzel (or whatever the damn move is called) as long as I concentrate. In other words, if I can follow a move with one lead and not another, it can't be 100% my connection at fault every time... If I do lose a lead, I always apologise (and often get told not to!) and if it's someone I know, will sometimes ask for a 'replay' if it seems appropriate/won't ruin the "mood".

Ghost
20th-October-2005, 03:58 PM
Doesn't it depend a great deal on your partner? Once she's stepping in, unless she keeps the tension in the arm there's not much you can do about it until she decides to reconnect with you.

Which raises the question why would she reach a point of "I don't need tension anymore?". :confused:

In my experience different ladies dance differently (now that's profound :wink: ).

In practice it means that the amount of tension you provide, how exagerated or subtle the lead, how big the steps, how far the distance between you is, how far you let them extend out and away from you and so on all have an effect. If I can get everything synced up then no, I don't lose connection because it's really just the coarser manifestation of the above. Getting all the above synced up however, especially with someone you haven't danced with before, can feel a bit like the three bears "No that's too big, too little, ahh just right".

Take care,
Christopher

foxylady
20th-October-2005, 05:58 PM
Which raises the question why would she reach a point of "I don't need tension anymore?". :confused:



Sometimes one deliberately 'loses' tension to protect oneself from an agressive lead, and to stop being yanked around. I suspect that that in itself becomes a vicious circle with the leader subconciously increasing tension to reconnect... wouldn't it be simpler if we felt we could say 'please could you lead more gently'.....

Ghost
20th-October-2005, 07:23 PM
Sometimes one deliberately 'loses' tension to protect oneself from an agressive lead, and to stop being yanked around.

Good defense in the short term :clap: , but as you say quickly goes wrong. :tears: If the man is dancing in sync this shouldn't arise. :flower:


wouldn't it be simpler if we felt we could say 'please could you lead more gently'.....

Only if the guy listens :tears:

I'd be surprised if yanking the lady around is the cause of Martin's problems though

Take care,
Christopher

dancefiend
18th-November-2005, 10:35 AM
If you can do almost everything with your eyes closed as when they are open then you know that you have developed good connection.

Another way is to dance with only one hand, you can release / re-connect but just with that hand. Use your body movement to compensate for the tension. That's another way of developing connection.

I feel if you try to think of what to do on each count, you're missing the point. How can the dance be smooth if the focus is on discrete points in time?

David Bailey
18th-November-2005, 11:20 AM
If you can do almost everything with your eyes closed as when they are open then you know that you have developed good connection.
Interesting - I've done "follower eyes closed" a few times, but never "leader eyes closed" - I guess mainly because I'd be too worried about bumping into other couples. But as a workshop concept, why not - certainly should help the connection?

tsh
18th-November-2005, 12:06 PM
To give an example, take the first move:
* I get the girl coming forward, and there's normally some nice connection there. (on/before "1" in Ceroc count)
* Then there's a vague bit as I take my hand to my shoulder, and we're not very connected (between "1" and "2")


This sounds very much like your follower is not moving as you would like her to - in the way that is starting to wind me up quite a lot at the momemnt... She is reading your lead as a signal to walk up and stand in front of you, or even worse to walk in and turn to stand at your side.
What I would like in this scenario is for my partner to continue coming forward until I stop her motion with my two hands absorbing her momentum - as in a sugar push. Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a lot of un-learning that lots of ladies need to do to achieve this (even when they're being taught a sugar push in a lindy class, there is not enough connection after the step in)

Sean

dancefiend
18th-November-2005, 12:15 PM
Interesting - I've done "follower eyes closed" a few times, but never "leader eyes closed" - I guess mainly because I'd be too worried about bumping into other couples. But as a workshop concept, why not - certainly should help the connection?

Your other partner (with eyes opened.... hopefully) will alert you when you're getting too close. But with eyes closed also helps you sense the surrounding -like not travel too far in one direction.

When I dance its mostly through connection - not much visual. Yeah work shop idea would be good.

under par
18th-November-2005, 12:34 PM
I had a funny last hour and a half on Monday morning at Camber.

I cannot recall why but I made a decision to dance leading only with one finger per hand.

Where possible I made it the pinky or small finger of the follower that was the only connection between us.

What I leaned was more about the balance of the follower.

I could only lead with this minute connection when the follower was on balance.

I became acutely aware of how little I am usually aware of this and this is why I often find myself apologising at times for making the follower lose balance.

I also became more aware of the use of body frame as a source of lead.

Kate at Jango has said often about using the chest of the leader as the mirror for the follower to follow (her concept ..my words). I became much more adept at this form of lead on the night.

I had lots of great dances with this connection style but I haven't danced since then, so I am really anxious to get back dancing to experiment some more.

The other aspect of this connection I really enjoyed was the initial looks on the faces of the followers when I refused to take hold of their hands in the normal hand hold :eek: :what: :really:

I have tried this minimalist connection before without getting so much out of it.

Maybe I am at that stage in my dancing where I am looking deeper into my dancing style to try and achieve a greater at one-ness with my followers.

Hopefully not too introspective a post.

under par
18th-November-2005, 04:33 PM
Are you sure about this CJ? Cos it may be one of those things that you don't know. So now either you know you know you know or you don't know you don't know you don't know. :sick:

And unless you do the class you'll never know whether you know or don't know.

I think..........:confused:

Can you run that past me again........:wink:

David Franklin
18th-November-2005, 04:46 PM
Can you run that past me again........:wink:Does it help if I run it by you backwards?

.wonk t'nod uoy wonk t'nod uoy wonk t'nod uoy ro wonk uoy wonk uoy wonk uoy rehtie won oS .wonk t'nod uoy taht sgniht esoht fo eno eb yam ti soC ?JC siht tuoba erus uoy erA

.wonk t'nod ro wonk uoy rehtehw wonk reven ll'uoy ssalc eht od uoy sselnu dnA

:confused: ..........kniht I
Yes, I think that's a little clearer...

under par
18th-November-2005, 07:04 PM
Does it help if I run it by you backwards?

Yes, I think that's a little clearer...

Thanks David I feel I understand much more now.:D

robd
19th-November-2005, 01:36 AM
This sounds very much like your follower is not moving as you would like her to - in the way that is starting to wind me up quite a lot at the momemnt... She is reading your lead as a signal to walk up and stand in front of you, or even worse to walk in and turn to stand at your side.
What I would like in this scenario is for my partner to continue coming forward until I stop her motion with my two hands absorbing her momentum - as in a sugar push. Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a lot of un-learning that lots of ladies need to do to achieve this (even when they're being taught a sugar push in a lindy class, there is not enough connection after the step in)

Sean

Forum Wisdom #63
Remember: It's always the lead's fault

The whole format of a typical ceroc night doesn't help with the issue Sean identifies - lessons with each move broken down beat by beat and a pause (to allow teacher explanation of the next beat's actions) on each beat - it's no surprise that this is how many followers (and leaders) believe the dance should be done - i.e as a set of discrete actions rather than a continuous flow. In theory when you motion your partner in whichever direction they should keep travelling in that direction until your lead indicates otherwise. In reality this doesn't often happen. I'm not skilled enough to offer advice on how to get to the stage where it does happen but I have seen people who can do it so it's not an impossible aim.

Robert

robd
19th-November-2005, 01:48 AM
This thread actually kind of provides a relevant thread for a concern I have had for some time, which is that some followers are too stylish, for want of a better description and their 'style' interrupts the flow of a dance. It's not too many people and these people are skilled - they don't have an iron grip, they move in time and I guess to some on the sidelines they look good BUT their method seems to involve adopting whichever of a pre-prepared set of poses seems appropriate. For example, a standard first move - bring the lady in and she then flicks herself out with a great flourish to your side and then brings herself back in with equal vigour. It's not back leading, so much as lead independence. I may as well not be there.

I know one obvious answer is to do unusual moves/unusual variants of moves but this doesn't really help if your aim (as mine is at this point) is to polish the core moves in order that you can lead a few moves well rather than a lot badly.

Do others experience this problem with some followers? How do you deal with it?

Robert

spindr
19th-November-2005, 02:22 AM
Do others experience this problem with some followers? How do you deal with it?
Nope -- never had this problem :whistle:

"Hypothetically" one could let the lead lag very very slightly so that you lead at the "end" of the beat, rather than in the beginning/middle of the beat -- just long enough to make a discernable difference between following a lead and pre-empting one. If you're follow realises -- and you get a smile, then you can then lead on -- if they're oblivious, then you smile and get more practice at following the follower.

Sometimes, breaking away (spinning) and recatching can help -- it makes it slightly easier to make very minor adjustments -- plus, there's a visual element to the catch that means it can't be preempted.

SpinDr.

Cruella
19th-November-2005, 10:50 AM
This thread actually kind of provides a relevant thread for a concern I have had for some time, which is that some followers are too stylish, for want of a better description and their 'style' interrupts the flow of a dance. It's not too many people and these people are skilled - they don't have an iron grip, they move in time and I guess to some on the sidelines they look good BUT their method seems to involve adopting whichever of a pre-prepared set of poses seems appropriate. For example, a standard first move - bring the lady in and she then flicks herself out with a great flourish to your side and then brings herself back in with equal vigour. It's not back leading, so much as lead independence. I may as well not be there.

I know one obvious answer is to do unusual moves/unusual variants of moves but this doesn't really help if your aim (as mine is at this point) is to polish the core moves in order that you can lead a few moves well rather than a lot badly.

Do others experience this problem with some followers? How do you deal with it?

Robert
I know exactly what your saying Robert. On a few occasions i have led a dance with someone i truly admire as a female dancer. Very stylish, and been surprised at how that 'style' has been detrimental to the feel of the dance! This is where the old argument of competition versus social dancing comes in. For a long time i've watched some of the stylish ladies wishing i could look like they do. But i would not want it to affect the feel of the dance for the man. I think if i had to make a choice i would rather not look stylish and feel smooth.
I would however, like to be both. :sick:

Lory
19th-November-2005, 12:23 PM
Where possible I made it the pinky or small finger of the follower that was the only connection between us.


I had some of these with you last night and I loved the feeling. :drool:

It's a fantastic test for the follower, as we need to really 'tune in' and 'listen,' blocking out all other noise, the lead is extremely subtle and quiet but when you let yourself succumb, the feeling of connection is amazing!:worthy:

Another note, all my best leads, use more than just the 'hand to hand' leads, they will place a hand on my hip, shoulder, back, neck or even elbows sometimes and guide me, it's this that also helps to iron out any ambiguity.:cheers:

under par
19th-November-2005, 01:02 PM
I had some of these with you last night and I loved the feeling. :drool:

It's a fantastic test for the follower, as we need to really 'tune in' and 'listen,' blocking out all other noise, the lead is extremely subtle and quiet but when you let yourself succumb, the feeling of connection is amazing!:worthy:

Another note, all my best leads, use more than just the 'hand to hand' leads, they will place a hand on my hip, shoulder, back, neck or even elbows sometimes and guide me, it's this that also helps to iron out any ambiguity.:cheers:

Thanks Lory, it was great fun.

I have found that the minimalist connection becomes far less effective the faster the beat of the track. I tried really really hard not to succumb to full hand connection but it was only a matter of time before I did.

It may be that with a lot more practice I will improve

I find that eye contact I use whilst dancing this way definitely increases and a sensation of "real at one-ness" is quite awesome. It almost feels as if you are willing your partner to follow the micro lead using eye contact as well as a finger....quite amazing!



I do also use "body leads" touching the elbow shoulder back hip etc with normally a hand/finger but on ocaasions I have found myself using a forearm or wrist or on one or two ocassions my back.

This type of lead hasn't been something taught but has developed with my dancing, I am forever changing my mind or making very late decisions during my dance as to what move I am going to do.
I may start the motion to one move and then just as quickly vary it to something else. I find I do this sometimes to stop anticipation from my follower but mainly because it feels the right thing to do to the music?
This has had the effect of leading me into many positions with my follower that were not meant to happen :eek: but many turn out fine and if it works I use it whether or not its a "real move" ie taught somewhere.

Makes for a lot of experimentation, which in itself can be fun and exhilerating if it works. Quite funny if it doesn't too. :rofl:

The increased awareness of the followers balance has been something I have got quite excited about though.
I have heard many people talk of it and read a lot about it here on the forum.
I am aware many times when I have made a follower unbalanced and have always felt awkward and apologised.
So I am now more than ever before conscious of the foot a follower is on and where the weight is placed.

It has been the micro/minimalist lead that has opened my consciousness to this because you cannot pull/push a follower with one finger if the balance is not correct she will not move.

All in all I'm having loads of fun with it and hope any followers will give me an honest appraisal of how it worked for them when I see them.:flower:

Sorry to rabbit on a bit its just nice to try and put into words what is whizzing round inside my head.

Ghost
19th-November-2005, 02:21 PM
I know one obvious answer is to do unusual moves/unusual variants of moves but this doesn't really help if your aim (as mine is at this point) is to polish the core moves in order that you can lead a few moves well rather than a lot badly.

A way to do both is to go here http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4742
and go down to entry 9. Shows you how to do core moves, but in such a way as to fox ladies trying to enforce their style on your lead.

Hope it helps

Christopher

Kev F
19th-November-2005, 03:48 PM
I really must get UP to explain this to me as this connection thing really sounds good. :clap: :worthy:

It is good to watch the constant evolving of dancers and I'm amazed at the new angles which keep emerging. My last was foot pressure :eek: Now that's a scary one...especially when I'm told I have none :tears:

May try the one finger thing with the ladies (leading that is)...but I will be cautious with lory as I fear she may rip it straight off in one of her mad, experimental moments :rofl:

Katie
19th-November-2005, 04:03 PM
Another note, all my best leads, use more than just the 'hand to hand' leads, they will place a hand on my hip, shoulder, back, neck or even elbows sometimes and guide me, it's this that also helps to iron out any ambiguity.:cheers:
:yeah:

Just clearing up any ambiguity, just in case, a guy leading a girl with his hand on her bottom does not count! :rofl: Btw it has happened to me, once is a mistake but twice....oh no!! :mad:

David Franklin
19th-November-2005, 06:39 PM
Just clearing up any ambiguity, just in case, a guy leading a girl with his hand on her bottom does not count! :rofl: Btw it has happened to me, once is a mistake but twice....oh no!! :mad:
You weren't dancing with Bill Turnbull, were you?

Lory
20th-November-2005, 02:31 AM
May try the one finger thing with the ladies (leading that is)...but I will be cautious with lory as I fear she may rip it straight off in one of her mad, experimental moments :rofl:
Oi! I've just noticed this:really: and there's me thinking you loved my experiments:blush: .. well, they seem to make you laugh anyway :rolleyes: :wink:

dancefiend
20th-November-2005, 04:42 AM
Forum Wisdom #63
Remember: It's always the lead's fault

The whole format of a typical ceroc night doesn't help with the issue Sean identifies - lessons with each move broken down beat by beat and a pause (to allow teacher explanation of the next beat's actions) on each beat - it's no surprise that this is how many followers (and leaders) believe the dance should be done - i.e as a set of discrete actions rather than a continuous flow.

Agree and in classes moves are taught with a beginning and the end. as a result students emphasise the beginning and end position. One way to get around it is to go through the main principals first - like footwork connection etc. And then explain less of the move. Show the students the move and let their bodies figure it out from building blocks the teacher had already given them.

Another down side to explaining beat by beat is that the students start to associate the "speed" of the move to the speed of the song. Then later on you have to teach them musicality as a separate thing - like dragging out the move or moving double time etc.


In theory when you motion your partner in whichever direction they should keep travelling in that direction until your lead indicates otherwise. In reality this doesn't often happen. I'm not skilled enough to offer advice on how to get to the stage where it does happen but I have seen people who can do it so it's not an impossible aim.

Eventually your partner would slow to a stop - but that's not the problem if you have connection because you can detect her movement at any given point in time. If you start losing the tension you can use foot work, body movement to regain the "tension" to regain your lead.

Cruella
20th-November-2005, 12:47 PM
In theory when you motion your partner in whichever direction they should keep travelling in that direction until your lead indicates otherwise. In reality this doesn't often happen. I'm not skilled enough to offer advice on how to get to the stage where it does happen but I have seen people who can do it so it's not an impossible aim.

Robert
So Rob are you coming on Jive Ps Simply Smooth workshop next sunday? ( as i know your a fan of his)

jiveoholic
21st-November-2005, 08:32 AM
To give an example, take the first move:
* I get the girl coming forward, and there's normally some nice connection there. (on/before "1" in Ceroc count)
* Then there's a vague bit as I take my hand to my shoulder, and we're not very connected (between "1" and "2")
* Then we seem to reconnect, and I get to twist her out to my side (on/before "2")
* Then there's another vague-ish bit as she twists (between "2" and "3")
And so on, through the dance. It's not completely universal - just a pattern.

I thought that this was normal - possibly defining modern jive:


"a ricochet from one contortion involving tension or compression to another via a loose connection as the lady moves with her own momentum".

This is in contrast with other dances where there is a proper "frame" and one uses the foot-work/music timing to gain much of the synchronising, with a much lighter lead. The problem with jive is that some ladies find it difficult to be lead and insist on totally creating their own momentum rather than using the compression or tension (which is usually on the beat).

This is so true with the yoyo - how often do the ladies arrive back for the "elbow to elbow" count to be boomeranged into the turn (nice) and how often do they grind themselves to a halt resulting in a damp squid of a moment (nasty)?! It is this acceptance of flow between tension or compresion that is something I have not found taught in any lesson.

David Bailey
2nd-January-2006, 06:14 PM
I've re-read this with a "done-a-bit-of-tango" eye, and it all makes sense now - :D

AT is all about continuous connection, from what I can tell, but MJ is so structured to "push-and-pull with the hand" type of leading, that it's difficult to see how you can teach it in a Ceroc format - the "no-hands" approach is a start, but I think "hands behind the back" would be a bit more realistic, that'll sort the men out from the boys.*

I know, I know, I'm turning into a tango-evangelist....

* And yes, I'd definitely be a boy.

Zebra Woman
2nd-January-2006, 08:43 PM
I've re-read this with a "done-a-bit-of-tango" eye, and it all makes sense now - :D

AT is all about continuous connection, from what I can tell, but MJ is so structured to "push-and-pull with the hand" type of leading, that it's difficult to see how you can teach it in a Ceroc format - the "no-hands" approach is a start, but I think "hands behind the back" would be a bit more realistic, that'll sort the men out from the boys.*

I know, I know, I'm turning into a tango-evangelist....

* And yes, I'd definitely be a boy.

I have been trying very hard since June with (patchy success) to achieve a better and more continuous connection. I have good nights and bad nights, and even whole bad weeks. I have to say it has made me take much more responsibilty for how a dance has gone/felt. I am looking at everything with fresh eyes.

I have enjoyed dances with beginners and advanced dancers far far more by improving my side of things, even though I would still consider myself to be at the beginning of a very long journey.

Another plus - I certainly think that the MJ leads into tango have more chance of success if the woman is maintaining her part of the continuous connection and is more 'present'.