Subtleties and improvements to Ceroc moves

[Ghost]

Either how have you adapted a Ceroc move to make it "better" or what's a subtlty you realised for a specific move that isn't explicitedly taught?

eg I've noticed that halfway through the first move, when the lady is at your side kind of mirror imaged to you, to bring her hand back up to your left shoulder teachers actually start the lead by going down/forward with their hand rather than just going straight up.

Thanks
Christopher

[ChrisA]

eg I've noticed that halfway through the first move, when the lady is at your side kind of mirror imaged to you, to bring her hand back up to your left shoulder teachers actually start the lead by going down/forward with their hand rather than just going straight up.

Excellent piece of observation.

The reason is that she won't end up back facing you unless she first steps forward, and leading her forward (into the pivot as she comes back to face you), rather than pulling her hand up, is a much better way of initiating the movement (you don't pull her hand up other times you want her to step forward, do you?).

There are lots and lots of details like this, that make a lead more followable, and less "clunky" feeling. Be on the lookout for these. :)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.

[Lou]

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.
Actually, it's one of the things Ceroc™ doesn't teach as well as LeRoc. It's standard practice around these parts, and taught in every class I've been to here. But I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.

[Whitebeard]

Originally Posted by El Salsero Gringo

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.





Actually, it's one of the things Ceroc™ doesn't teach as well as LeRoc. It's standard practice around these parts, and taught in every class I've been to here. But I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.

You might not have seen it mentioned at Cheltenham Lou, but Nico brings this point up very frequently at Gloucester.

[ducasi]

Actually, it's one of the things Ceroc™ doesn't teach as well as LeRoc. It's standard practice around these parts, and taught in every class I've been to here. But I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.
Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...

[MartinHarper]

I was surprised not to see it mentioned at any Ceroc™ class. It's straightforward, easy to do, and, as you say, works well.

It's mentioned at Kidderminster and Worcester on occasion. Might only be in the beginner classes, though - can't remember if Debbie talks about it to intermediates at all.


what's a subtelty you realised for a specific move that isn't explicitedly taught?

Whilst the "Straight Jacket" ties up both the woman's arms, it doesn't do anything about her knees.

[Whitebeard]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...
I think we're all talking of same thing and your description is better than ESG's.

[spindr]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...
If there's a large gap between the lady's back and her elbow you hand may drag across her chest (especially if she's somewhat rubenesque) -- if you start on the shoulder you're fairly well guaranteed not to find yourself holding anything other than a hand when it finishes sliding down :)

There's another subtlety -- as the hand slides down her arm you can move it to catch the outside of her hand (ready to lead an inside turn) or to catch the inside of her hand (ready to lead an outside turn).

SpinDr.

[Gadget]

If there's a large gap between the lady's back and her elbow you hand may drag across her chest (especially if she's somewhat rubenesque) -- if you start on the shoulder you're fairly well guaranteed not to find yourself holding anything other than a hand when it finishes sliding down :) Unless the lady is of unusual proportions and lacking in support, you should be miles away from anything: the hands should be at hip/elbow level.
I see more danger with the "shoulder" style of things because men are born lazy and it's too much effort to lift the hand that high. And your hand is traveling from high to low, following the lady's body - I'm amazed that there are not more complaints.

[bigdjiver]

Trailing your right hand down from the lady's shoulder or elbow to take her second hand after a return is not explicitly taught, but works well.Michaela teaches this.

[Tessalicious]

Whilst the "Straight Jacket" ties up both the woman's arms, it doesn't do anything about her knees.:devil: Indeed - a point which I frequently forget when put into this position, as it for some reason makes me feel more panickingly claustrophobic than a much closer ballroom hold - but I'll try to remember the knee for next time (DavidJames, watch out!)

Oh and I forgot to mention - the special Amir First Move (if I'm allowed) omits the beat where the lady is turned back into the man's side, making for a smoother exit which is also more musically flexible.

[LMC]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...
I've been in lessons where that has been taught as well. Including one where one guy had to be gently told that I'm tall, therefore my back is higher up... (gently just in case it was a genuine error, if he does it to me again then I will publicly humiliate him). IMO, the trailing from the shoulder/upper arm/elbow works well, and if the lead is watching, I can't see that they would inadvertently catch the, er, chest area in error.

[DavidY]

IMO, the trailing from the shoulder/upper arm/elbow works well, and if the lead is watching, I can't see that they would inadvertently catch the, er, chest area in error.Hmmm...
Her (indignant): Are you staring at my chest?!
Him: Of course not - I was just watching to make sure my hand trails across the right areas.

[LMC]

And the problem with watching her arm is? :rolleyes:

If the lead is a bit, er, premature, I can see that they might catch the wrong part of the anatomy if they are using the 'back trail' method - misread spindr's original post, sorry.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Round here we're taught to trail a hand across her back to connect with the lady's arm around about her elbow... Are you talking about anything different from that? Can't think why I'd want to start all the way up her shoulder...
If there's a large gap between the lady's back and her elbow you hand may drag across her chest (especially if she's somewhat rubenesque) -- if you start on the shoulder you're fairly well guaranteed not to find yourself holding anything other than a hand when it finishes sliding down

There's another subtlety -- as the hand slides down her arm you can move it to catch the outside of her hand (ready to lead an inside turn) or to catch the inside of her hand (ready to lead an outside turn).
Unless the lady is of unusual proportions and lacking in support, you should be miles away from anything: the hands should be at hip/elbow level.
I see more danger with the "shoulder" style of things because men are born lazy and it's too much effort to lift the hand that high. And your hand is traveling from high to low, following the lady's body - I'm amazed that there are not more complaints.And for my next trick, I'm going to start an argument over whether boiled eggs should be eaten from the pointy end or the blunt end.

For ****'s sake guys, it's just a way of getting hold of the lady's spare arm, not a proposal for marriage. Get a grip.

[LMC]

And for my next trick, I'm going to start an argument over whether boiled eggs should be eaten from the pointy end or the blunt end.
Go on then. I think a poll would be good, haven't seen one of those on the forum for ages.

oh, and boom-boom

[Gadget]

And for my next trick, I'm going to start an argument over whether boiled eggs should be eaten from the pointy end or the blunt end. Blunt end: you can dip more toast that way.


For ****'s sake guys, it's just a way of getting hold of the lady's spare arm, not a proposal for marriage. Get a grip.erm... I thought that's what we were arguing about: getting a grip? :confused: {:wink:}

[MartinHarper]

Oh and I forgot to mention - the special Amir First Move (if I'm allowed) omits the beat where the lady is turned back into the man's side, making for a smoother exit which is also more musically flexible.

Hmm - I've ended up with a few of those by accident. What's the lead difference meant to be?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Hmm - I've ended up with a few of those by accident. What's the lead difference meant to be?Amir teaches a first move where you lead the lady in to your side and allow your right hand to travel round her lower back to her far hip. On the exit you raise the left hand, lead with the right forearm to turn the lady clockwise on the same beat as she steps back. it misses out a count (two beats) and fits exactly into two bars of music (without a return). It's not a 'special' lead, you just lead the lady to do a travelling turn.

[David Bailey]

:devil: Indeed - a point which I frequently forget when put into this position, as it for some reason makes me feel more panickingly claustrophobic than a much closer ballroom hold - but I'll try to remember the knee for next time (DavidJames, watch out!)
I used to take the straightjacket nice and slowly - half-time, wiggling, just to get the lady used to it.

But now I find it's easier to lead (for a first-timer) if I just bomb into it, using momentum to turn the lady - usually it's done so quickly that way she doesn't have time to sabotage it / screw it up.

Caveat: you've got to be extremely confident with this one to get it right at that speed; kids, don't try this at home etc.

[MartinHarper]

On the exit you raise the left hand, lead with the right forearm to turn the lady clockwise on the same beat as she steps back.

Ahh, I see the problem now. I do something similar to this when leading a standard first move exit in the standard number of beats - something I've picked up from JazzJive and Lindy. The same confusion wouldn't exist if I used a purist Ceroc first move. I'll have to experiment to see if I can lead the difference between the two.

Thanks, ESG.

[DavidY]

And the problem with watching her arm is? :rolleyes: Nothing at all - and in my fictitious example I'm sure that's exactly what the man was doing. :)

But if her arm is so close to er... other areas.. that leaders need to look to check where their hand is, I guess that glance might get misinterpreted.

FWIW I'm not sure where I look in reality - in a crowded venue I'd probably glance behind me at around that point as I'm about to step back. Or into my partner's eyes of course. :innocent:

[LMC]

But if her arm is so close to er... other areas.. that leaders need to look to check where their hand is, I guess that glance might get misinterpreted.
[ deadpan ] glance/stare - it's all in the timing...

Moving swiftly along from the first move (before f**twork creeps in...)...

Next topic: does anyone else find that guys who lead a catapault don't extend their left hand back far enough for the follower to take it until they have stepped forward - not a major problem, but the looks of surprise when I don't take the hand immediately are sometimes mildly irritating - I always want to point out that I don't have arms like a gorilla...

[Ghost]

Excellent piece of observation.
:cheers:


The reason is that she won't end up back facing you unless she first steps forward,

Ah, so that's why it's also at the beginning of the first move and the Pretzel. I've noticed quite a few ladies try and just pivot in place rather than step forward in the middle of the first move, which messes up the positioning.



and leading her forward (into the pivot as she comes back to face you), rather than pulling her hand up, is a much better way of initiating the movement

I prefer to pull (gently) outwards rather than down as I've noticed leading down causes the lady to bend forward taking her spine off vertical and unbalancing things.



(you don't pull her hand up other times you want her to step forward, do you?).
I spent quite a while playing with variations of this when I started as i wanted something that would work even if the person didn't know they were "supposed" to step forwards.

Based on the Misleading Moves Thread, the obvious lead is to shout at the lady "STEP FORWARDS NOW!" :rofl:



There are lots and lots of details like this, that make a lead more followable, and less "clunky" feeling. Be on the lookout for these. :)

There's two problems with this.
A) I might misunderstand why something is being done. :blush:
B) I can end up picking up the teacher's bad habits :tears: (ducks for cover)

All details welcomed. Thanks to everyone who's posted so far
:cheers: :flower: :clap:

I'll put up some more observations in a bit and hopefully the more experienced can explain / correct them for me

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

DISCLAIMER

I've written the following as "fact" because the english gets too clumsy if I phrase everything with "maybe" "IMHO" etc. But all of this is just based on my observations and as such may be completely wrong :tears:

It's all written from the man's perspective.

Ok according to my handy Beginners Checklist the Beginners Moves are
First Move - already covered, though feel free to add more stuff
First Move Pushspin -
Armjive - if the lady is backleading it's sometimes necessary to go into a rotating armjive to stop yourself being punched in the chest/ribs
Armjive Pushspin -
Armjive Swizzle - slightly firmer hold on the lady's left hand to indicate you're going to keep hold of it. With the extension of the swizzle man steps to the left to give a more comfortable arm placement
Manspin - I've seen a double spin version where the guy walked on tip toes through the move rather than spinning on the spot
Backpass The man needs to keep his left hand away for as long as possible to minimise the length of time it's in the lady's reach, otherwise some ladies will try and take it with their left hand. I also had one lady who kept mutating it into a half windmill, but I can't quite remember how (I don't think she knew the backpass)
Shoulderslide Despite what the teachers say a lot of ladies don't put their hand on your shoulder if you lead their hand there. Instead of leading to the top/back of shoulder, lead to the front of the shoulder and let their hand slide up, over and down
Step Across - It's a nice recovery move if you or the lady has lost your balance; a really easy way to get back in time with the beat is to extend the arc in the middle as you step past and when the beat occurs, make that the apex. It's also a good move to set up more complicated moves eg Pretzel as it naturally flows into a nice clean lead in. Be aware of how the height difference between you. It's better to use a different bridging move eg manspin than to have to bend your knees because the lady is small as it may well make her feel self conscious.
Octopus be careful coming out of this into linear moves eg armjive as circular moves seem to follow more naturally.
Basket As you come out of the side wrapped up position completely and clearly let go with your right hand to avoid confusion about possible variations (assuming you're not leading a variation).
Side to side ShouldersOn the first side to side watch what the lady does. If you want you can mirror, complement it in the second repetition.
In and Out - it's easier to push back against the lady's palms if there's a downwards slope from the man's arms to the lady's arms as it opens up the angle. If the lady give you nothing to push against you can gently put your thumbs over her fingers and guide her through the move (but this is BAD and should only be done very gently)
Yoyo - as man steps in and brings right hand to left shoulder, right foot is placed in a stepped out to the right position rather than pararllel with left foot to ease transition into next part of the move
Cerocspin I personally do this with the ladyspin 'ball in socket grip' just to make it absolutley clear that I'm going to spin them. It's also an easier way to brake their momentum to a halt as you set up for the move.
Comb Needs a slight dip of the hand just before you comb yourself to get the distance right. If you try to spin the lady around and comb yourself in one curve, you'll probably be too close.
Slo Comb It's remarkably easy to move a lady around the floor by just slowly walking when in a slo comb. Good for easing into space for the next move or getting away from inconsiderate dancers
Catapult - if the lady doesn't take your left hand when she's behind you just leave your left arm back and step to the right and the lady will eventually collect your spare hand
Shoulder Drop At the end when you lead the lady forwards, step in directly behind her (slipstream) otherwise she ends up too far to your left

Now if the nice experienced dancers would go through it and make coments, that would be great. :cheers: :flower: :clap: . I'm not married to any of it so feel free to tear it to bits.

Thanks,
Christopher

[DavidY]

Next topic: does anyone else find that guys who lead a catapault don't extend their left hand back far enough for the follower to take it until they have stepped forward - not a major problem, but the looks of surprise when I don't take the hand immediately are sometimes mildly irritating - I always want to point out that I don't have arms like a gorilla...I'm sure I've seen it deliberately taught with leaders told to keep their arm well out of reach of the follower until they step forward. Is this what you mean?

[ChrisA]

Armjive - if the lady is backleading it's sometimes necessary to
....dance with someone else. :devil:

[Ghost]

....dance with someone else. :devil:

:rofl:

Take care,
Christopher

[MartinHarper]

Next topic: does anyone else find that guys who lead a catapult don't extend their left hand back far enough for the follower to take it until they have stepped forward?

Yeah, fairly often.
As a lead, I often find myself turning to my right as I send the girl past me on that side, which leaves my left hand unable to go as far back as my right.
As a follow, it's mostly taking overlarge steps, and/or overturning.

[robd]

Re: 'Amir's First Move'

Well, I have read the description and still can't quite picture it, or follow it with any smoothness when trying it.

Is it demoed on his Jango DVD (which I am umming and ahhing over buying)?

Robert

[Trish]

Re: 'Amir's First Move'

Well, I have read the description and still can't quite picture it, or follow it with any smoothness when trying it.

Is it demoed on his Jango DVD (which I am umming and ahhing over buying)?

Robert

Don't know about whether it's on the Jango DVD, although I guess it might be. I should be able to direct you into it I think (it's only the end that's different from a normal first move - basically you just turn the girl out early), but sometimes it's easier to see what these things look like. If DJ (no, not David James!) is around next time you're in Peterborough I can demo it with him for you if you like, otherwise I may be able to show you with one of the Peterborough girls, although I'd probably have to work it out first as I haven't lead it.

[Gadget]

Ok according to my handy Beginners Checklist the Beginners Moves are...
OK - adding to the tips; from what I've learned...
Armjive - if the lady is backleading it's sometimes necessary to go into a rotating armjive to stop yourself being punched in the chest/ribs
When initiating the armjive (with an unknown dancer), stand with feet shoulder-width appart, then simply pivot on either foot and transfer the weight to the back foot. This avoids any problems with "larger" ladies and eliminates most problems associated with lady's being forcefull.

Armjive Pushspin -
remember to 'push' down to the floor, slightly towards the lady's outer hip. And it's not throwing the ladies hand; it's a gentle and constant push: very easy to send the follower off-balance by pushing too hard.

Armjive Swizzle - slightly firmer hold on the lady's left hand to indicate you're going to keep hold of it. With the extension of the swizzle man steps to the left to give a more comfortable arm placement
No - you don't need to hold firmer: just drop the left hand lower on the curve (bum or lower rather than hip level) before taking it to the half nelson. Don't worry too much about the hand hold here - a hip hold works just as well.
On the extension, don't make it a full "step" to the left - simply 'step out' to spread the legs and make sure that the lady's arm is straight, gently pushed slightly behind the shoulder to ensure she completes the move.

Manspin - I've seen a double spin version where the guy walked on tip toes through the move rather than spinning on the spot
Same advice as the lady's get on spinning: Use the step as a preperation - spin on the spot - then step back. Trying to spin and move without being guided is very hard.
Make sure that this move is done as a joint move: lead the lady round you, and step to the side - it makes the lead easier, the follow easier and the move flow better.

Backpass The man needs to keep his left hand away for as long as possible to minimise the length of time it's in the lady's reach, otherwise some ladies will try and take it with their left hand. I also had one lady who kept mutating it into a half windmill, but I can't quite remember how (I don't think she knew the backpass)
Cheat with this move: don't actually 'pass' the hand - place it on your right hip, then collect it again from your left. Same effect, less likley to be missunderstood.

Shoulderslide Despite what the teachers say a lot of ladies don't put their hand on your shoulder if you lead their hand there. Instead of leading to the top/back of shoulder, lead to the front of the shoulder and let their hand slide up, over and down
A lot of ladies don't like being that intimate. A lot of ladies don't like sweaty shirts. I have/do purposfully lead shoulder slides and man-spins with no back contact.
To avoid contact, a simple weight shift forward about an inch or two and starting to turn the instant the hand is placed will work. The reverse {with known partners and to be cheeky} is shifting the weight back to move the torso against the follower's hand as it travels*, and leave turning untill the last possible moment - even to the extent of catching before facing your partner.
{* this can involve a step back if the lady is traveling or taking big steps :wink:}

Step Across - It's a nice recovery move if you or the lady has lost your balance; a really easy way to get back in time with the beat is to extend the arc in the middle as you step past and when the beat occurs, make that the apex. It's also a good move to set up more complicated moves eg Pretzel as it naturally flows into a nice clean lead in. Be aware of how the height difference between you. It's better to use a different bridging move eg manspin than to have to bend your knees because the lady is small as it may well make her feel self conscious.
Any move can be used as a 'filler' to regain posture/balance/beat... tips for the Step Across are to make sure that you start the follower moving forward before raising the hand and make sure that your hand is above your head when you turn and not in limbo between you.
Another thing I do is to use my right hand (thumb down) to 'guide' the follower's right hip past you - this eliminates any missunderstanding and can be used to prevent the follower from turning when they shouldn't.

Octopus be careful coming out of this into linear moves eg armjive as circular moves seem to follow more naturally.
They follow naturally because you are leading the lady to your right, then stepping right and so forth... make this move easier for the follower and share the 'lateral' movement between you: side-step to the left and forward on the 'basket' bit, and step through so you are back in-line and exactly where the follower started. Same with the next bit.

Basket As you come out of the side wrapped up position completely and clearly let go with your right hand to avoid confusion about possible variations (assuming you're not leading a variation).
There are no single handed moves that cannot be started double handed, then dropped as the move starts. I fact it can lead to some 'interesting' variations.
As above, share the lateral movement, and it flows so much better if you match the follower's step out rather than mirroring it (right foot back). Another 'smoothness' tip is to use the contact with the lady's back on your bicep and forearm to start the un-wrap rather than dragging them out with the left hand.

Side to side ShouldersOn the first side to side watch what the lady does. If you want you can mirror, complement it in the second repetition.
Make the exit lead start in a similar way to the start of the side-to-side so that the move seems to flow out rather than come to a stop before having another move to exit.

In and Out - it's easier to push back against the lady's palms if there's a downwards slope from the man's arms to the lady's arms as it opens up the angle. If the lady give you nothing to push against you can gently put your thumbs over her fingers and guide her through the move (but this is BAD and should only be done very gently)
?? no. Number one: don't do the 'birdy song' actions - it's not the most stylish, swave or elegant move ever, but any 'cool' points you built up during the rest of the dance suddenly evaporate when you both waggle your elbows like that. {sorry: pet hate.}
Keep the hands low and relaxed - almost to the sides. Picture flying a stunt kite and pulling to give it more height. Don't bump chests, but that's the impression you want to give - almost like the european air-cheek kiss. Don't step too far back.

Yoyo - as man steps in and brings right hand to left shoulder, right foot is placed in a stepped out to the right position rather than pararllel with left foot to ease transition into next part of the move
Carefull: that foot back may interfear with the follower's turning. It will also encourage the follower to step further back and have more risk of the 'chicken wing' injury.
Make sure that the hand is led from high to low and weight is transferred with the movement - a simple pivot, keping weight on that foot rather than any turning helps. The 'block' is not a hand block: the block is with your fore-arm, vertical; the hand just makes sure you don't miss. The lead out from that ripples up to the fingers.

Cerocspin I personally do this with the ladyspin 'ball in socket grip' just to make it absolutley clear that I'm going to spin them. It's also an easier way to brake their momentum to a halt as you set up for the move.
Using the "ball and socket" method relys on you leading the lady to one side and effectivly throwing them off balance. The 'wrist catch' method allows the follower's momentum to be gently checked as they 'over-turn' into it.
The lead out should be just the same gradient: increased momentum to guide the follower rather than shoving them. (see 'push-spin' above)

Comb Needs a slight dip of the hand just before you comb yourself to get the distance right. If you try to spin the lady around and comb yourself in one curve, you'll probably be too close.
There is a lot to do with timing in a comb: step in when the folower's back is to you - hand stays high. If you are taller, you want to be closer, or do a semi-lunge to one side of your partner and drop so that your partner's eyes are about shoulder level (eye level can be a bit intimidating) DO NOT LEAN. Chin over crotch.
As they complete the turn, you have to take their hand over your head without leading them forward. This is about maintaining momentum and not pulling them into/out of/through the return.
The hand should drop onto your shoulder as you hault the momentum (I still prefer the 'hip block' rather than 'elbow' method)
Two options now; are you going for smootchy or impact? A simple lead away with immediate release of the right hand will break the hold and it's always nicer to finish with a slide-down to the left hand, even if you have to swap after that.
For the closer version; release the right hand a fraction later and use the blocking hand to prevent her from escaping. If you dropped lower, use the stand-up motion to break the right hand hold. The right can then be used on the follower's back for a more 'intemate' hold. {Followers: use the left palm on the inside of the lead's shoulder as a block and 'safety net'... or do devilish things with it if you know your partner :devil:}

Slo Comb It's remarkably easy to move a lady around the floor by just slowly walking when in a slo comb. Good for easing into space for the next move or getting away from inconsiderate dancers
Slight tip: notice how similar this position is to a 'closed first move' or 'ballroom' hold? you've got lots of time in the walky bit to make a subtle change in holds.

Catapult - if the lady doesn't take your left hand when she's behind you just leave your left arm back and step to the right and the lady will eventually collect your spare hand
If they don't take your hand, you have probably stepped forward. Lead the follower towards you as you take a side step left. They turn where you were. lead them back as you straddle that gap and offer.
On the lean, you have another option of leaning - all weight over one foot and weld the other to your torso so that as the torso leans forward, the leg moves backward: gives the illusion of a lean without relying on your partner holding you.
As with the lead in, take a step right on the exit (and I then step back in as she is turning.) On the spin, don't end the free-spin lead sending your partner to your left: send her infront of you.

Shoulder Drop At the end when you lead the lady forwards, step in directly behind her (slipstream) otherwise she ends up too far to your left
Depends on how you lead it. If you try to rush it or not 'hesitate' between sliding in and stepping forward, then yes, this can happen. the other thing to do would be to rotate so that they are behind you, or continue the slide movement right to catch side-on.
There's masses that can go wrong in this move - just wing it and pretend it was what you intended to happen :wink:


See also...Beginner Moves: tips and advice (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4946)

[Ghost]

OK - adding to the tips; from what I've learned...
:cheers: Thanks Gadget, I had a play with these concepts tonight. :clap:

also...Beginner Moves: tips and advice (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4946)

"I don't want to know, "keep it small","bend your knees","look into her face","smile","don't force her"... I want to know why I should keep it small, how bending the knees will help, why I should stare into her eyes, why my facial expression matters,..."
:angry: Yeah one of my bugbears with Ceroc is the whole "learn it unconciously as you go along". Especially as the response I most often get from teachers / taxi drivers to a technical query is

:confused: "You know that's a good question. I don't know"


Or you can use this forum of course definitely helps :clap:

So, Core Intermediate Moves next then anyone?

Thanks,
Christopher

[El Salsero Gringo]

...the response I most often get from teachers / taxi drivers to a technical query is

:confused: "You know that's a good question. I don't know"
If you're asking taxi drivers technical questions about Ceroc then "I don't know" seems a respectable answer, just like it would be if you asked your average taxi dancer the best route from Hammersmith to the Old Kent Road, avoiding rush-hour traffic.

[Ghost]

If you're asking taxi drivers technical questions about Ceroc then "I don't know" seems a respectable answer, just like it would be if you asked your average taxi dancer the best route from Hammersmith to the Old Kent Road, avoiding rush-hour traffic.
:rofl:
It all makes sense now.

I guess I should stop going into staffrooms and asking the teachers about flamenco drops too? :whistle:

Take care,
Christopher

[Ghost]

DISCLAIMER

I've written the following as "fact" because the english gets too clumsy if I phrase everything with "maybe" "IMHO" etc. But all of this is just based on my observations and as such may be completely wrong :tears:

It's all written from the man's perspective.

Ok firstly I don't actually know which moves are considered to be the Core Intermediate Ones. The following is just an educated guess. Secondly I know there's gaps in my understanding of these moves. I can feel it when I dance them ~ "There's supposed to be something there" What is it?

As always any tips, advice, corrections gratefully accepted. :cheers: :flower: :clap:

The Sway - having tried a lot a different things I've come to the conclusion that the best way to do this it to "Just do it". Take the lady and put her (gently) where you want her to be. Is there a way of leading sway with steps back and forwards where the man choses how many steps to take? It seems like every lady choses a set number and then always takes that many steps forcing the man to either accept being backled or remember what her 'magic number' is.

Octospin - nice way of abbreviating an Octopus if the dance space you were going to use for the last part vanishes.

Ladyspin - give the lady a little extra time to get her hand positioning sorted out in your left hand if necessary. It seems to vary slightly from lady to lady so I don't think you can always just lead them into a one size fits all grip?

Halleuiahs - great moves to catch your breath, let the lady recover from the 16 spins you just put her through, or if there's limited space. The Slo Halleluiah can be sped up to suit the music.

Accordian - different ladies step out to the side by different amounts, so be careful when offering your hand as to exactly where it is in relation to the lady's anatomy. Like the catapult, a gentle, graceful offer, possibly remaining a little longer, allows the lady more time to realise you're offering her your hand.

Secret and spin - the 'spin' can be either way and sometimes there's a degree of unintentional backleading depending on the lady's balance as she's coming round to show which is going to be easier to go with

Pretzel - if you make eye contact during each part of the move it flows much more smoothly. If the beginning goes wrong either False Pretzel if you realise quickly, Almost Pretzel if you don't, or just let go if your mind goes blank.

Mambo Steps - be careful once you've done 3 as the lady might anticipate going into the next move when in fact you want to do another few steps. Step in confidently at the beginning and it'll pretty much work even if the person doesn't know mambo steps, but be prepared for them to step immediately out of them.

Drops/Seducers - read the forum :wink: and always ask first, don't drop the lady, don't do them on crowded floors

Wurlitzer - ideally check the lady knows the move before you do it. Be ready to let go with your right hand if they mistake your left lead for a pushspin

Neckbreak - check behind you before you raise your arm to avoid decapitating people (if you're going to signal). Check behind you anyway before you step in (if you're not going to signal)

Teapot - armjive's an easy way to practice getting into this. There's a First Move Variation which gives you basically the teapot but without the bouncy woman syndrome. In theory you're supposed to snap their arm out at the end to give them the energy and momentum for a nice style point. The 'ideal' amount of energy required various considerably from lady to lady. It's better to go for a clean, crisp lead with no more force than normal.

Freeze - be ready to bail on this. Not all intermediate folllowers will understand what you're doing (and may even be concerned that you've hurt yourself :flower: ).

The Rugby Tackle (The Backhander?) Not sure about the name, but the begining looks like the guy rugby tackling the lady. To smooth out the move, as you bring her hand into your right and pull down, go down on one knee (genuflect) ; then stand as you lead up and finally remain standing as you do a flourish down and to your left to finish.

Thanks,
Christopher

[Gadget]

As always any tips, advice, corrections gratefully accepted.
....

The Sway - having tried a lot a different things I've come to the conclusion that the best way to do this it to "Just do it". Take the lady and put her (gently) where you want her to be.
lead her towards your left hip, then as her weight is committed on the front foot, take your hand to the right to pivot her on the spot and step in to her side almost continuing the lead away from you again so that she is tucked in niceley.
Most common errors are not stepping in and "yanking" the follower in. You may have to rotate yourself to the right to line up properly (some beginners wonder where you are and try to turn back to face), but you just follow them and perhaps use the left hand on the lady's near shoulder to pull them in.

Is there a way of leading sway with steps back and forwards where the man choses how many steps to take?You have them clamped in to your side: your right hip and right hand sandwich the lady so you can lead as many steps as you want.

Ladyspin - give the lady a little extra time to get her hand positioning sorted out in your left hand if necessary. It seems to vary slightly from lady to lady so I don't think you can always just lead them into a one size fits all grip?
Grip? should be a flat, palm to palm contact. The 'force' used should besically be a gentle shove downwards: too much force will send the lady off-balance and traveling.

Accordian - different ladies step out to the side by different amounts, so be careful when offering your hand as to exactly where it is in relation to the lady's anatomy. ?? hands offering should be at (lady's) hip level or shoulder level: no matter the move. What is there to be carefull about?

Pretzel - if you make eye contact during each part of the move it flows much more smoothly. If the beginning goes wrong either False Pretzel if you realise quickly, Almost Pretzel if you don't, or just let go if your mind goes blank. keep your fore-arm tight against your back; rotate your whole body to face rather than twisting and moving this arm.

Mambo Steps - be careful once you've done 3 as the lady might anticipate going into the next move when in fact you want to do another few steps.Only if you are not leading them: stop after one, two, three, four... reverse, shimmy, whatever. They will only do three if you have always done three or you are not leading them.

Wurlitzer - ideally check the lady knows the move before you do it. Be ready to let go with your right hand if they mistake your left lead for a pushspinAgain, don't push so hard. Also, differentiate it from a push-spin by leading one first and using the right hand to help turn them. Then in the Wurlitzer, do the opposite and almost lead to the right with that right hand.

Neckbreak - check behind you before you raise your arm to avoid decapitating people (if you're going to signal). Check behind you anyway before you step in (if you're not going to signal) Don't do it - use another move to get into the same position. :wink:

Freeze - be ready to bail on this. Not all intermediate folllowers will understand what you're doing (and may even be concerned that you've hurt yourself :flower: ). a "freeze" is not just stopping: you need to lead the lady to stop, then either invite her to do something (implied in the freeze anyway) or do something yourself. The thing you need to do is actually lead the stop and not simply stop leading.

The Rugby Tackle (The Backhander?) see "Neckbreak" :whistle: I've only seen one person (David H: Scooby) do this with any style or panache - I think it even look paniced when BTCBill does it.

[Ghost]

Is there a way of leading sway with steps back and forwards where the man choses how many steps to take?You have them clamped in to your side: your right hip and right hand sandwich the lady so you can lead as many steps as you want.
It's more that after they've done their magic number of steps back it feels like they try to step forward regardless of the fact that I'm still stepping back (not everyone admittedly, but quite a few)


Grip?
Opps, bad use of English. By grip I actually mean any form of hand contact. Sorry. What I meant was that exactly how much of their fingers are in contact with your palm varies from lady to lady eg some just do fingertip contact, while others go as far as the second knuckle of their middle finger and can need a bit more time to get their hand into position for the 'right' amount of contact (for them)


Accordian - different ladies step out to the side by different amounts, so be careful when offering your hand as to exactly where it is in relation to the lady's anatomy. ?? hands offering should be at (lady's) hip level or shoulder level: no matter the move. What is there to be carefull about?
Ok this might not make sense written down, but picture doing an accordian and offering your hand. Now imagine the lady stepped to your left by a foot (or more) than you expected - she can collide with your offered hand. For most of the moves I've encountered ladies generally move to about the same relative place in space (unless they're deliberately styling it out), but in this move the amount they move seems to vary considerably and not necessarily in accordance with the size of steps they normally take. Some pivot on the spot, some step out to varying degrees - could be a problem with my lead. It's easy enough to feel and adjust for, but I find I need be particularly aware the first time I do this move with someone to gauge just how far they're going.


Neckbreak Don't do it - use another move to get into the same position. :wink:
:cheers:


a "freeze" is not just stopping: you need to lead the lady to stop, then either invite her to do something (implied in the freeze anyway) or do something yourself. The thing you need to do is actually lead the stop and not simply stop leading.
Hmm now I'm confused - what are the references to "playing statues" on the forum about?:confused: . Have I got the wrong term - I mean when you "freeze" on a break. I'm aware of the freeze concept where you stop for a moment eg coming out of a sway and then for example invite the lady to play. I thought the break one (statues) was the same idea but with a longer pause.


The Rugby Tackle (The Backhander?) see "Neckbreak" :whistle: I've only seen one person (David H: Scooby) do this with any style or panache - I think it even look paniced when BTCBill does it.
The lady looks good. :clap: No idea about me (Dance like nobody's watching - and she's spinning around so probably doesn't have a clear view of me anyway :whistle: I often get flashed a smile when they come out of it so I'm happy :clap: )

There's a line from the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen where Allan Quatermain tells Tom Sawyer "You've got all the time in the world". I found it makes the more panicky moves a lot easier to do if I keep this in mind. :wink:

Thanks
Christopher

[Gadget]

It's more that after they've done their magic number of steps back it feels like they try to step forward regardless of the fact that I'm still stepping back (not everyone admittedly, but quite a few)you're not leading them in the step back then; a constant tension in the 'pull back' is needed rather than a step, step, step where the lady has a chance to escape. It also means that there is a noticible difference between going back and stopping - try smoothing it out.


What I meant was that exactly how much of their fingers are in contact with your palm varies from lady to lady~? nope, still not with you: the hand hold should have begun to change at the low point of the path to your shoulder, slowing to a hault before bushing for a spin out.
What I tend to do is give a little tug of the fingers to get the hand moving forward while presenting the heel of my hand as the contact point and rotating it palm forward.


Ok this might not make sense written down, but picture doing an accordian and offering your hand.{what the hell is an accordian again?} Now imagine the lady stepped to your left by a foot (or more) than you expectedAt this point, my weigh is on my right foot and transfering to the left in time with hers: I match her step, moving my whole body/torso back so that she is exactly where I want her. A perfect lead :wink:


Have I got the wrong term - I mean when you "freeze" on a break. I'm aware of the freeze concept where you stop for a moment eg coming out of a sway and then for example invite the lady to play. I thought the break one (statues) was the same idea but with a longer pause. They are one in the same and led in the same way - just on the shorter ones you lead out of them sooner. My view is that you should not "freeze" on a break, but use it as a 'pose' point to start or end a dramatic movement.
{I found it quite amusing when watching a competition on DVD recently with the sound off and everyone did some form of dip and held it for a beat at exactly the same time :D}


The lady looks good. :clap: as long as you don't try to raise that hand from behind her back too quickly, yes. I just don't like the speed of the move, diving at the lady's waist, grabbing the hand, turning her out again...Dangers of bashing your knees, twisting them the wrong way, missing the hand, getting a facefull of embarassment, wrenching the arm,...
I have much better ways to get to that position, much better things to do while there than turn her out immediatly, and much better leads out of it again{:devil:}.
Perhaps I'm just getting old and don't like the fast moves any more :tears:

[Ghost]

? nope, still not with you:

With some ladies their hand just slips straight into the position they want it to be in while they're spinning, usually one of the two extremes ie just the tips of their fingers against my palm, or pretty much all their fingers in contact with my palm. Some ladies prefer a middle ground and take a little bit longer to adjust their hand / fingers into the exact position they want. I give them the extra time if they need to so they're not fidgetting around when the actual spin starts. It's easy enough to add in an extra half beat while setting up the move and add an extra half beat at the end for styling.


as long as you don't try to raise that hand from behind her back too quickly, yes. I just don't like the speed of the move, diving at the lady's waist, grabbing the hand, turning her out again...Dangers of bashing your knees, twisting them the wrong way, missing the hand, getting a facefull of embarassment, wrenching the arm,...
:yeah: I remember my first impressions of the move were "There's just soooo much that can wrong with it. But with a lady who's good at spinning, they look sooooooo beautiful doing it. So I've spent some time safety proofing it. It's done with the feeling I described of "I've got all the time in the world", along with the feeling of 'flowing water' / 'smoke drifting in the breeze'. Kind of a dream-like quality I guess.


I have much better ways to get to that position, much better things to do while there than turn her out immediatly, and much better leads out of it again{:devil:}.
Do tell :cheers:


Perhaps I'm just getting old and don't like the fast moves any more :tears:
Ekk! You're only 6 months older than me. I'd better enjoy these moves while there's still time! :wink:

Thanks again for the good advice,
:clap:

Christopher

[Gadget]

Do tell :cheers:naaaaa: that would spoil the surprise for the ladies :devil: :wink: :rofl:


Ekk! You're only 6 months older than me. I'd better enjoy these moves while there's still time! :wink: Actually I think it's more that I enjoy the slower songs more: you're quite safe :whistle:

[Ghost]

naaaaa: that would spoil the surprise for the ladies :devil: :wink: :rofl:
:cheers:


Actually I think it's more that I enjoy the slower songs more: you're quite safe :whistle:
Ah well, I've got a couple of Blues workshops coming up just in case :wink:

Thanks again,
Christopher

[LMC]

OK, I've just started foaming at the mouth at the mention of the neckbreak...

I loathe neckbreaks - I really do. Mostly because I'm 5'9", so unless the guy is 6ft plus or is leading well enough to compensate (few do), neckbreaks always throw me off balance. The neckbreak, unfortunately, is quite a popular move it seems - if someone whose shoulder is lower than my neck leads more than two neckbreaks in one track, I *will* sabotage :devil:

To make the point more general: some moves just do not look good if there is a significant height difference between partners. Some drops don't work well either, unless one or both partners has sufficient physical fitness to compensate fully.

[Ghost]

OK, I've just started foaming at the mouth at the mention of the neckbreak...

I loathe neckbreaks - I really do. Mostly because I'm 5'9", so unless the guy is 6ft plus or is leading well enough to compensate (few do), neckbreaks always throw me off balance.

There was a neckbreak taught in the intermediate class last night and halfway through, every guy I could see was resting his arm on the lady's shoulder :blush:


The neckbreak, unfortunately, is quite a popular move it seems - if someone whose shoulder is lower than my neck leads more than two neckbreaks in one track, I *will* sabotage :devil:

A general question - is it acceptable to sabotage a sabotage? On a different thread, it was mentioned about a lady sabotaging a spin and putting the man into a spin and how men aren't always that great at spinning. Can we respond as long as our counter leads into a different move than the original? (It seems unfair to try and put the lady back into a move she's tried to get out of)


To make the point more general: some moves just do not look good if there is a significant height difference between partners.
:yeah: Thankfully some moves do suit a height difference eg spins when the lady is significantly shorter. Given that we have a free choice of what to lead you'd think we'd use it better :blush:


Some drops don't work well either, unless one or both partners has sufficient physical fitness to compensate fully.
Tactfully put :flower:

Good insights, :clap:
Thanks,
Christopher

[Ghost]

I got to try out Gadget's suggestions last night and finally danced a smooth pretzel :clap: . The other tips helped too :wink:

:cheers:

Thanks,
Christopher