Who gives us our prejudices

[stewart38]

Go for it, Stewart38, you have nothing to lose but your prejudices!

Are we not what we are from not just what we read but our back ground (going back generations) where we live who we interact with etc

If i have prejudices then society 'gave' me them :whistle: but i like to think im open minded .

I can certainly change my mind more then i thought

Id never swim with dolphins again (didnt like idea their trapped)

Id never visit a 'traditional school in Kenya again' (It was full of tourist throwing out sweets from the coach ,with the kids running after it)

Id do more work in prisons

[Lynn]

While we are shaped by society especially when growing up (very much so here, for example P & RCs go to different schools - surely a contributing factor in a less than integrated society?) - there is definitely an element of choice. We choose what to feed our minds on and what influences we allow in our adult lives. Our prejudices are therefore largely our own responsibility.

[El Salsero Gringo]

While we are shaped by society especially when growing up (very much so here, for example P & RCs go to different schools - surely a contributing factor in a less than integrated society?) - there is definitely an element of choice. We choose what to feed our minds on and what influences we allow in our adult lives. Our prejudices are therefore largely our own responsibility.I don't think schools have very much to do with it. Children can be the most prejudiced of anyone, despite they're taught, and the playground is one of the nastiest cultures you can find. I think the things you learn and experience in your late teens and twenties are more significant.

[jivecat]

We choose what to feed our minds on and what influences we allow in our adult lives.


The mind that fed exclusively on newspapers like the Mail and the Express would be a pretty malnourished one, IMHO. Perhaps that's my form of prejudice.

I was rather amused by the mental image of Stewart38 standing in the newsagent, vacillating over whether to buy a copy of the Independent, which is why I made the somewhat flippant remark.

[LMC]

You want flippant jivecat? - [ OBLIG ] I'm not prejudiced, I hate everybody.

I agree with ESG - children can be incredibly cruel. Also, I don't think you can blame the schools - parents/upbringing would play a huge role.

But I also believe that you can shed prejudices at any time in your life if you are "informed" properly - IMO, prejudices are largely based on fear and/or ignorance.

I believe that they are also unavoidable to some extent - one of my best friends has a very unusual background - if I'd known before we got talking (instead of within half an hour of meeting her), then we may not have become such good friends - because with the best will in the world, prior knowledge would have given me a certain perception of her, which would not have made me decide to "hate" her or avoid her, but might have put up barriers to finding common ground. That prejudice was purely down to lack of knowledge - I would have been too concerned about putting my size 8's in and hurting her feelings if I'd known her history before we were introduced. But it's still prejudice.

My current thoughts are that whilst prejudices might be inevitable, there is absolutely NO excuse for not being prepared to remove them - and they should lessen as people get older - as Lynn said, we choose what to feed our minds, I try to keep mine as open as possible and some of the new experiences I've had over the last 3 or 4 years have been so enriching (as well as removing prejudices!) that I'm eager for more.

[Lynn]

I don't think schools have very much to do with it. Children can be the most prejudiced of anyone, despite they're taught, and the playground is one of the nastiest cultures you can find. I think the things you learn and experience in your late teens and twenties are more significant.My point about schools was purely in the context of the fact that in NI Protestant and Catholic schooling is completely seperated and the contribution that can made to prejudices in society here (you did read my post?). For some people the first time they knowingly speak to someone from 'the other side' is their first workplace or university, at 16 or 18. I'm sure this has some contribution to the 'dehumanising' that is part of the violence. (Many in the paramilitaries were recruited by the age of 16.)

And while parents and the community in which these children are brought up of course are contributory factors, there are very few choices for most parents in terms of integrated schooling.

[El Salsero Gringo]

My point about schools was purely in the context of the fact that in NI Protestant and Catholic schooling is completely seperated and the contribution that can made to prejudices in society here (you did read my post?). For some people the first time they knowingly speak to someone from 'the other side' is their first workplace or university, at 16 or 18. I'm sure this has some contribution to the 'dehumanising' that is part of the violence. (Many in the paramilitaries were recruited by the age of 16.)

And while parents and the community in which these children are brought up of course are contributory factors, there are very few choices for most parents in terms of integrated schooling.I did very much read your post. I don't agree with you that segregated schools contribute to adult prejudice; at least, I don't think it's 'obvious'. Not withstanding the recruitment age of some paramilitaries I think childhood prejudices are shed and adult ones acquired later.

It would be interesting to know if there's any sensible research in this area.

[mooncalf]

I did very much read your post. I don't agree with you that segregated schools contribute to adult prejudice; at least, I don't think it's 'obvious'. Not withstanding the recruitment age of some paramilitaries I think childhood prejudices are shed and adult ones acquired later.

It would be interesting to know if there's any sensible research in this area.

Is it possible that your own experiences are prejudicing your argument here?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Is it possible that your own experiences are prejudicing your argument here?I'd say it was a dead certainty!

[stewart38]

I did very much read your post. I don't agree with you that segregated schools contribute to adult prejudice; at least, I don't think it's 'obvious'. Not withstanding the recruitment age of some paramilitaries I think childhood prejudices are shed and adult ones acquired later.

It would be interesting to know if there's any sensible research in this area.

Surely this depends on the setting and what you 'get' from outside influences

If you where white and born in South Africa in 1940 by 1960 you would be a sum of what you have been /taught learnt. You wont shed prejudices of what you have been bought up on with unless your given the 'opportunity' to do so


Do we live in an enlighted age ?

Some people would think eating dogs is wrong some people in other parts world would see it as 'normal'

The 'moral' argument of not eating dog is based on believes you have acquired

who is 'right'

[Lynn]

I don't agree with you that segregated schools contribute to adult prejudice; at least, I don't think it's 'obvious'. While I absolutely agree that adult prejudice is a matter of adult responsibility, I don't feel it is right to rule out the role of segregated schooling along with segregated community life as an influencing factor on a young person growing up in NI. It is certainly problematic for parents in 'mixed' marriages to know which school to send their children to.


It would be interesting to know if there's any sensible research in this area.I'm sure there has been. I sort of know someone involved in promoting integrated schooling (I can't remember the exact name of the body), next time I see him I will ask him.

[mooncalf]

I'd say it was a dead certainty!
..and how does that make you feel?

[Will]

Surely this depends on the setting and what you 'get' from outside influences

If you where white and born in South Africa in 1940 by 1960 you would be a sum of what you have been /taught learnt. You wont shed prejudices of what you have been bought up on with unless your given the 'opportunity' to do so


Do we live in an enlighted age ?

Some people would think eating dogs is wrong some people in other parts world would see it as 'normal'

The 'moral' argument of not eating dog is based on believes you have acquired who is 'right'
Not necessarily. Some people simply cannot fit a dog in their oven.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Surely this depends on the setting and what you 'get' from outside influences

If you where white and born in South Africa in 1940 by 1960 you would be a sum of what you have been /taught learnt. You wont shed prejudices of what you have been bought up on with unless your given the 'opportunity' to do so
I think one needs to credit people with the ability to ignore their 'upbringing' and make up their own minds. Many people in South Africa were able to look past the apartheid attitudes of those around them and decide for themselves that there was another way. And to say that no one can shed prejudice unless they are given an opportunity invites those people to deny responsibility for their own attitudes, simply because they weren't given "the right opportunties".


Do we live in an enlighted age ?

Some people would think eating dogs is wrong some people in other parts world would see it as 'normal'

The 'moral' argument of not eating dog is based on believes you have acquired

who is 'right'I had a dream about eating deep-fried dog off the bone the other night. The dog was still breathing, too. It was quite disturbing.

[Gadget]

Most prejudices come form two sources: Looking different or Acting different. Once you accept that everyone is different, and entitled to be, then the prejudices sort of fall away.

In saying that; prejudices, or preconceptions, have to be made in order for society to function properly: you have to assume that everyone is neutral, and the information you get about them has to taint that view:
- If you learned that someone had a criminal record,
- ...they had been married before,
- ...they can play a musical instrument,
- ...they went to university,
- ...they have been in hospital for a long time,
- ...they don't like dancing,
- ...
Our prejudices are guained from every contact we have with a similar type of person - even if that 'contact' is through a third party. Think on names as a prime example - when naming a child, you sift through hundreds of names and say "no, I don't like 'Aaron' - knew someone once with that name: was a plonker."

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm sure there has been. I sort of know someone involved in promoting integrated schooling (I can't remember the exact name of the body), next time I see him I will ask him.That would be interesting. But to avoid prejudicing the outcome, you also need to ask someone who is involved in promoting segregated schooling too...

[David Bailey]

I did very much read your post. I don't agree with you that segregated schools contribute to adult prejudice; at least, I don't think it's 'obvious'.
In NI, it's very clear that this segregation does perpetuate prejudice, just go there (it's a lovely place) and see.

Now admittedly, I don't know to what extent separate education impacts prejudices, compared to the segregated-homes, segregated-social, segregated-political and segregated-religions (duh) aspects of life there. But it must have some impact.

Yes, children can be nasty little bullying terrors without any excuse, but they'll also tend to take any excuse grown-ups provide and use that as justification for their nastiness.

The extent of segragation in some parts of Northern Ireland is much greater (I believe) than you'd imagine - but because both sides look the same (both white) to a casual observer, it's not immediately obvious unless you live there.

But, it's still a lovely place.


you also need to ask someone who is involved in promoting segregated schooling too...
That's pretty much everyone else...

[El Salsero Gringo]

In NI, it's very clear that this segregation does perpetuate prejudice, just go there (it's a lovely place) and see.

Now admittedly, I don't know to what extent separate education impacts prejudices, compared to the segregated-homes, segregated-social, segregated-political and segregated-religions (duh) aspects of life there. But it must have some impact.
It must? How on earth would you tell, given all the other influences?

On the subject of prejudices, they aren't all obviously bad, either. If you're a small furry pointy-eared creature then a prejudice that makes you stay out of the way of larger slavering creatures with sharp teeth is probably a good thing (a prejudice that was superbly parodied by the sharks Bruce and friends in Finding Nemo, if anyone remembers.)

If you're alone and walking down a dark street in a rough neighbourhood is it unacceptable prejudice to cross the road to avoid a group of men wearing hoodies? What about when the Police focus attention on Asian men when looking for suicide bombers?

[David Bailey]

It must? How on earth would you tell, given all the other influences?
If a kid comes back from school and says "Mummy, Proddies / Feynians are evil aren't they?", that's a bit of an indication. If the parent replies "Yes they are, well done little Jimmy", that's another. I wish I were making this up.


(a prejudice that was superbly parodied by the sharks Bruce and friends in Finding Nemo, if anyone remembers.)
"Fish are friends, not food" :)


If you're alone and walking down a dark street in a rough neighbourhood is it unacceptable prejudice to cross the road to avoid a group of men wearing hoodies?
No. But it may also be dumb - showing fear, drawing the attention of the mob etc.


What about when the Police focus attention on Asian men when looking for suicide bombers?
That's prejudice, sure - but that's reasoned prejudice based on the fact that all suicide bombers so far have had a common ethnic background, and that the police can't stop & search everyone, so they have to focus efforts, in this distinct case. The danger would be if some members of the police ignored everyone else, or if they applied this focus for other means, or insensitively.

Hah. What am I saying, "if"? Let me rephrase that:
"The danger will be when some members of the police ignore everyone else, or when they apply this focus for other means and insensitively. "

[El Salsero Gringo]

If a kid comes back from school and says "Mummy, Proddies / Feynians are evil aren't they?", that's a bit of an indication. If the parent replies "Yes they are, well done little Jimmy", that's another. I wish I were making this up.Resisting the temptation to over-analyse what you wrote, there's nothing there to suggest that mixed schooling would make much difference. Those "evil Fenians" might just as well be at the next desk; proximity won't make them seem less "evil" to a six year old.

I think the topic of people's prejudices is far far more complicated than simply what they learn or experience as a child. Based on a kid I knew at school at the age of five, I used to think all Italians were smelly. I didn't need to be given "opportunities" or re-educated by meeting Italians in a nationality-neutral and non-threatening mediation session to see by the age of seven that I was just being dumb.

[ducasi]

... see by the age of seven that I was just being dumb. Unfortunately not all adults are as smart as you were when you were seven.

[LMC]

But "there are none so blind as will not see".

I don't have a degree. I'm not in an especially high-powered job. In other words, I'm nothing special. So if I can be open-minded and check the facts before jumping to conclusions, why can't anyone?

Getting back to general prejudices rather than just those in children, some people are just natural "followers" and in the absence of any other information will base their opinions on what someone else tells them. When that "someone else" is the Daily Mail, and a reader shows no inclination to find out whether there is another side to the story, I find that quite disturbing. Yes, that's prejudice too :rolleyes:

Sorry, I can't resist a dull Monday afternoon moment: Prejudiced people should of course be burned at the stake (or possibly sacrificed to the FSM)

[David Bailey]

Resisting the temptation to over-analyse what you wrote, there's nothing there to suggest that mixed schooling would make much difference. Those "evil Fenians" might just as well be at the next desk; proximity won't make them seem less "evil" to a six year old.
Except that kids tend to make friends with their neighbours (as well as bully them, of course) very easily - and telling a 4-year-old that their bestest friend (for this week) is evil will just result in them giving you a funny look.

But telling them in the abstract that A Certain Group are evil / smelly / whatever is much easier if the kids have never met any of such group.

Segregation and prejudice are allies - surely that was one of the main points of the civil rights movement in the USA?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Segregation and prejudice are allies - surely that was one of the main points of the civil rights movement in the USA?Very true. But we're in danger of sliding away from segregation in schools to segregation at all levels of society. What Lynn said was that in an already segregated society, going to different schools contributes (was "a contributing factor") to prejudice. But to have non-segregated schools in an otherwise segregated society will not, I believe, do much good - because the prejudices that both lead to and feed off a segregated society are adult prejudices and I believe they are not connected to childhood prejudices.

[stewart38]

But "there are none so blind as will not see".

I don't have a degree. I'm not in an especially high-powered job. In other words, I'm nothing special. So if I can be open-minded and check the facts before jumping to conclusions, why can't anyone?




Because we then wouldnt have any Politicians :yeah:

[David Bailey]

But to have non-segregated schools in an otherwise segregated society will not, I believe, do much good - because the prejudices that both lead to and feed off a segregated society are adult prejudices and I believe they are not connected to childhood prejudices.
Ah - now I get you.

Yes, fair point - trying to artificially socially-engineer integration in only one aspect of life is probably not going to help much. Although I'd still argue that it's worthwhile - and politically it's easier to do than engineering other aspects such as housing.

[Lynn]

OK my point was probably two things - firstly that never having met someone from the 'other side' makes it easier to hate them and segregated schooling can contribute to this as can the neighbourhood you live in, the attitudes of your parents etc.

However while (some) parents have the choice of where to live and can live in a mixed area, very few can choose to send their child to an integrated school. (It has been the policy on the Equal Opportunties form for job applications to ask what primary school you attended as that indicates whether you are P or RC.)

Of course I'm not saying it automatically makes you prejudiced (otherwise the whole of NI would be prejudiced against one side or the other...) - it does mean you have to make more effort to understand where someone else is coming from.

And DJs right - it is a lovely place! :grin:

[Lynn]

I don't agree with you that segregated schools contribute to adult prejudice; at least, I don't think it's 'obvious'. Not withstanding the recruitment age of some paramilitaries I think childhood prejudices are shed and adult ones acquired later.

It would be interesting to know if there's any sensible research in this area.There is - I heard this on the news today....




Mixed schools 'not as sectarian'

People who attend integrated schools in NI could create a new political common ground, researchers have said. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[IMG] /><o:p></o:p></b></div>[COLOR=/><o:p></o:p>
Northern Ireland</st1:place></st1:country-region> politics." /><o:p></o:p>
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Academics at Queen's University in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Belfast</st1:place></st1:City> said educating Catholics and Protestants together shows young people end up with less sectarian views. <o:p></o:p>
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Their report follows six years of research into the political attitudes and identities of young people. <o:p></o:p>
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It suggested those at integrated schools were more likely to reject traditional identities and allegiances.
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Professor Bernadette Hayes, Professor Ian McAllister and Lizanne Dowds used a range of surveys to study if the attitudes of people who had an integrated education differed from those who went to a segregated school. <o:p></o:p>
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Their report, published on Wednesday, is entitled: "In search of the middle ground: Integrated education and <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Northern Ireland</st1:country-region></st1:place> politics."

Professor Hayes said: "These results, tentative as they are, add weight to the studies which have shown that integrated schools can and do have an impact on the outlooks of the pupils who attend them. <o:p></o:p>
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"Moreover, our study - based on a large sample of the adult population - suggests that the positive effects of integrated schooling extend into later life. <o:p></o:p>
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"As the numbers experiencing integrated schooling grows, these individuals have the potential to create a new common ground in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">Northern Ireland</st1:country-region></st1:place> politics."

Full story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4621426.stm

[ducasi]

There is - I heard this on the news today....



Full story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4621426.stm

Now if only someone in the Scottish parliament could read... :whistle:

[Barry Shnikov]

I had a dream about eating deep-fried dog off the bone the other night. The dog was still breathing, too. It was quite disturbing.

:eek:

DISTURBING? It's out and out Twilight Zone:really: . You'll have to stop eating before you turn in of a night.

[Barry Shnikov]

Based on a kid I knew at school at the age of five, I used to think all Italians were smelly. I didn't need to be given "opportunities" or re-educated by meeting Italians in a nationality-neutral and non-threatening mediation session to see by the age of seven that I was just being dumb.

...then going on holiday to Italy as a teenager and discovering - no, I was right all along!