PDA

View Full Version : Teaching/Real Dance Experience?



Gus
7th-October-2005, 03:33 PM
I think my real concern/reservation about MJ teachers teaching true dance technique is that only a mintority of them have true dance experience. With the greatest repsect to the mainstream MJ teachers, they have been taught a formula to teach and the understadning of basic dance principles is not something they may be aware of. I was made brutally aware of this shortcoming when preparing to teach Cool Catz and after attanding a few 'technique' classes by maintream MJ teachers.

I think there is a world of difference between a MJ teacher teaching dance and a proper dance teacher teaching dance. Its the likes of Nina, Amir, Kate, David & Lily, Sue Freeman ... these people have real experience/expertise and it really comes across. I've learnt more about balance and lead/follow in 2 dances with DavidB than any amount of lessons with ANY pue-MJ teacher.

I'm not dissing MJ instructors who are trying to braoden their protfolio of teavhing, but I would love to see these instructors furthering themselves first by learning how to teach these techniques form those who really know the technique.

Still sounds like a good course though

Franck
7th-October-2005, 03:52 PM
I would love to see these instructors furthering themselves first by learning how to teach these techniques form those who really know the technique.I absolutely agree, and I wish more MJ teachers would spend the time to attend workshops on technique.
I personally felt limited that I was too far from the main dance centres or couldn't travel easily to many workshops, so instead, I cherry-picked teachers from whom I would like to learn, and invited them over here to teach workshops (which also allowed me to specify what kind of workshops I wanted them to teach). David and Lily, Stefano & Alexandra, Marc & Rachel, Adam & Mandy, and many more have all contributed to building my understanding of the mechanics of dance, and this is why Amir is booked for November. He is a perfect example of what I want to work on and will be teaching:
* Improving your Spins and Creating Variety and Style!
* Hitting the Breaks with Style and Confidence
* Jango - Tango-Jive Fusion for Ceroc Dancers!
* Changing the Pace and Advanced Dance Techniques

All of the above, apart from Jango, are focused on technique, and I expect to learn loads, refine some stuff I'm only just discovering and have my eyes opened to new directions (as happened in the past with previous guest teachers).

Similarly, at the BFG, I'll be attending as many other workshops as I can (when not teaching) to learn new concepts and new ways of teaching them.

Ultimately, the majority of dancers never go to Technical workshops, due to lack of time / money, so opening a shorter (and more affordable), weekly workshop might help them discover the benefits of spending time on technique. Beyond those classes, I would still recommend they go to more workshops, book private lessons with experts, and indeed, learn other 'more serious' dance styles! :wink:

El Salsero Gringo
7th-October-2005, 04:16 PM
I think my real concern/reservation about MJ teachers teaching true dance technique is that only a mintority of them have true dance experience. With the greatest repsect to the mainstream MJ teachers, they have been taught a formula to teach and the understadning of basic dance principles is not something they may be aware of.Gus,

Do you have any idea how relentlessly worthy and uptight you sound every time you mention this issue? You don't teach at the moment, right? You're not running any venues. But at least twice a week you have to point out that mainstream MJ teachers don't understand how to dance and that they are taught to a formula. What *is* the problem? If MJ teaching is so poor, and mainstream MJ teachers don't know the principles - for goodness sakes stop moaning, and do it better yourself.

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 04:37 PM
What *is* the problem?Not speaking for Gus, but the problem I see is people claiming to teach a dance or technique based on a couple of workshops at Camber (which were already probably dumbed down to be accessible), and coming up with a mish-mash of semi-understood concepts that at best put people off, and at worst leave them at risk of injury. It's less common than it used to be, but it still happens...

Of course, it's unfair to lump all mainstream teachers in like that; it's a trap I admit I often fall to in the interests of keeping the message straightforward...


If MJ teaching is so poor, and mainstream MJ teachers don't know the principles - for goodness sakes stop moaning, and do it better yourself.If someone offers "Teach yourself Brain Surgery" classes based on "something they saw on ER", I don't have to be a member of the Royal College of Surgeons to criticise them...

David Bailey
7th-October-2005, 04:38 PM
He is a perfect example of what I want to work on and will be teaching:...
* Jango - Tango-Jive Fusion for Ceroc Dancers!
...

I dare you to replace that title with "This Jango Fad thing" on the day... :whistle:

Dance Demon
7th-October-2005, 04:43 PM
a question that someone hopefully can answer for me........This thread has discussed the various ins & outs of dance styles or codes and mentions " fads" which become fashionable in MJ.....Tango , WCS, Lindy etc etc....
Now, from this we can assume that MJ borrows certain bits from other dance styles, and adapts them to fit......so why, when we get the rules for MJ competitions ( C2D, Ceroc for example)...does it state.." dancers must dance MJ...WCS, Lindy, Salsa are not forms of MJ and are not acceptable".......Surely there must be some ambiguity here, as there are many MJ workshops all over the country, where mambo steps (Salsa)...Sugar pushes (WCS)...Charleston kicks (Lindy)...are taught...........so some people might feel that these steps should be acceptable to dance in a comp, whereas the judges might think that the rules are being infringed.......or maybe thats a different thread:)

David Bailey
7th-October-2005, 04:45 PM
I think my real concern/reservation about MJ teachers teaching true dance technique is that only a mintority of them have true dance experience.
I can see the point, but I think you're missing out the fact that most MJ teachers are actually relatively good at teaching - they mostly have or develop communications skills.

I've had lots of non-MJ dance classes from people, most of whom are lovely dancers and really know their stuff - but who generally are not great communicators.

The stand-in tango instructor I and Clive had yesterday for Argentinian Tango fell into that category; it was quite difficult to follow her, and that was only in a small class of 15 people. I actually got more information from the regular demo's occasional contributions.

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 04:53 PM
I can see the point, but I think you're missing out the fact that most MJ teachers are actually relatively good at teaching - they mostly have or develop communications skills.

I've had lots of non-MJ dance classes from people, most of whom are lovely dancers and really know their stuff - but who generally are not great communicators. I agree with you, but I think that has to be a secondary issue; if the choice is a poor communicator giving correct information or a good communicator giving incorrect information I know which I'd rather choose.

DavidB
7th-October-2005, 05:02 PM
if the choice is a poor communicator giving correct information or a good communicator giving incorrect information I know which I'd rather choose.The bar?

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 05:06 PM
if the choice is a poor communicator giving correct information or a good communicator giving incorrect information I know which I'd rather choose.

The bar?Possibly, though I understand politics has even more examples of the latter type than even the legal profession...

El Salsero Gringo
7th-October-2005, 05:42 PM
Not speaking for Gus, but the problem I see is people claiming to teach a dance or technique based on a couple of workshops at Camber (which were already probably dumbed down to be accessible), and coming up with a mish-mash of semi-understood concepts that at best put people off, and at worst leave them at risk of injury. It's less common than it used to be, but it still happens...Teaching something you don't know very well isn't a good idea. Mostly the people you're trying to teach will spot it. At least, they'll be able to make a decision about whether what you're teaching them is what they want to learn, and whether they're able to learn it from you. To use your example, David, if you went to a teach-yourself brain surgery course and came away thinking that you were qualified to drill into your own skull, how much of the responsibility would *you* bear for the messy results?

More significantly, I think you're falling into another trap: which is to implicitly assume that this is a fault predominantly of MJ teachers in particular, and therefore by association a fault of all MJ teachers and of Modern Jive itself. I don't see any evidence for that.

By the way - Gus, or anyone - if there are teachers of MJ without "true dance experience" - then what counts as "true dance experience", please?

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 06:14 PM
Teaching something you don't know very well isn't a good idea. Mostly the people you're trying to teach will spot it. At least, they'll be able to make a decision about whether what you're teaching them is what they want to learn, and whether they're able to learn it from you. Sadly, that turns out not to be the case. I particularly remember one aerials class at Camber was taught very badly. Everyone in the class thought it was great, while we watched from the sidelines wincing as people's uncontrolled heads swept within 6 inches of the ground.


To use your example, David, if you went to a teach-yourself brain surgery course and came away thinking that you were qualified to drill into your own skull, how much of the responsibility would *you* bear for the messy results?But according to you, I'm not allowed to even criticise the teacher unless I could do better myself. So obviously it must be all the teacher's responsibility... :whistle:

[Going back to the above slightly less extreme example, you could argue "hey, they wanted to learn aerials, and they did". But I would argue that "they wanted to learn safely, and that is what the instructor promised but failed to deliver" - and the audience lacked the knowledge to realise that. I find it hard to consider them responsible].


More significantly, I think you're falling into another trap: which is to implicitly assume that this is a fault predominantly of MJ teachers in particular, and therefore by association a fault of all MJ teachers and of Modern Jive itself. I don't see any evidence for that.No. Although I do think MJ teachers are amongst the most guilty of learning the "Cliff notes" version of another dance and thinking it's sufficient to teach it. Largely because MJ has such a strong "we'll steal from anywhere and be proud of it" attitude. But I certainly don't think it's the only offender, and it's a relatively minor issue.

The main reason I'm worried about MJ teachers doing this is simply because I'm only bothered about classes taught under the auspices of MJ. I wouldn't expect a tango class taught at a hip-hop workshop to be any better, but that's not my problem - not being a regular attendee of hip-hop workshops...

El Salsero Gringo
7th-October-2005, 06:38 PM
Sadly, that turns out not to be the case. I particularly remember one aerials class at Camber was taught very badly. Everyone in the class thought it was great, while we watched from the sidelines wincing as people's uncontrolled heads swept within 6 inches of the ground. Then they got what they wanted out of the class, obviously. Pretty ballsy of you to say you know better, don't you think?


But according to you, I'm not allowed to even criticise the teacher unless I could do better myself. So obviously it must be all the teacher's responsibility... :whistle:Criticize away, by all means. But when you criticize on behalf of the entire MJ community - as Gus appears to do - and when you're in a position to actually do better - as Gus is - you'd better have an ready answer for that obvious question.
Going back to the above slightly less extreme example, you could argue "hey, they wanted to learn aerials, and they did". But I would argue that "they wanted to learn safely, and that is what the instructor promised but failed to deliver" - and the audience lacked the knowledge to realise that.Well, you might just as well say that they wanted to learn how to crochet and make tapestry, but they lacked the knowledge to realise that. Some people like to do things a little dangerous, you know? You might not approve, but that's a different question entirely.
The main reason I'm worried about MJ teachers doing this is simply because I'm only bothered about classes taught under the auspices of MJ.Why are you bothered, since the people there were happy and not put off?

alex
7th-October-2005, 06:55 PM
Sadly, that turns out not to be the case. I particularly remember one aerials class at Camber was taught very badly. Everyone in the class thought it was great, while we watched from the sidelines wincing as people's uncontrolled heads swept within 6 inches of the ground.was that the infamous 'the class was a success because nobody got injured' one?

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 07:05 PM
Then they got what they wanted out of the class, obviously. Pretty ballsy of you to say you know better, don't you think?Not really. People often aren't aware how close they're coming to real injury. Put it like this - I bet if they'd seen a video of it, they wouldn't have been so happy...


Some people like to do things a little dangerous, you know? You might not approve, but that's a different question entirely.Why are you bothered, since the people there were happy and not put off?Aerials will always have some degree of risk, but it's the job of the teacher to minimize that risk. It is unreasonable to expect dancers inexperienced in aerials to assess "actually, that move is quite dangerous, isn't it?". Even when experienced, it's often hard to know which move is dangerous just by looking.

El Salsero Gringo
7th-October-2005, 07:14 PM
Not really. People often aren't aware how close they're coming to real injury. Put it like this - I bet if they'd seen a video of it, they wouldn't have been so happy...David, leave aside aerials (which I understand is an area you focus on) and lets go back to what Gus was complaining about:

Can you shed any more light on this "real dance experience" thing that's lacking in MJ teachers?

And do you think, that as Gus so clearly puts it, that "there is a world of difference between a MJ teacher teaching dance and a proper dance teacher teaching dance", and that therefore an MJ teacher can't be a proper dance teacher?

DavidB
7th-October-2005, 08:21 PM
Can you shed any more light on this "real dance experience" thing that's lacking in MJ teachers? There is a good example of what is required to teach other forms of dance at the ISTD Website (http://www.istd.org/training/teachingqualifications/cde.htm). Without getting into detail, they say the qualification "is roughly equivalent to the first year of a degree course."

Hopefully someone involved with the CTA can post similar information on what is involved in becoming a Ceroc teacher.

Gadget
7th-October-2005, 09:36 PM
I think my real concern/reservation about MJ teachers teaching true dance technique is that only a mintority of them have true dance experience.
And the obvious counter is that Ceroc is not a "True Dance", therefore why do we need a "True Dance" teacher to teach it?

What I see Franck doing is looking for/finding the elements that 'define' other dance styles and saying, "How can I use these to make my dancing better?" or "Where are the common elements that can be enhanced?"
What will be taught will have been tried and tested and used by Franck himself to improve his own dancing (and he's not that bad :wink: ). His experiance, translated into what worked and what didn't - then passed onto the masses. Why is this any less valid than theory and rigerous training that goes into producing "True Dance Teachers"?

As others have said, this is a social dance. I want to learn how to lead well, safely and with a three way connection between me, my partner and the music. What is "Right" is what works: it's not wrong because feet are out of alignment, toes are not pointed, weight is not over one foot,...

El Salsero Gringo
7th-October-2005, 09:44 PM
There is a good example of what is required to teach other forms of dance at the ISTD Website (http://www.istd.org/training/teachingqualifications/cde.htm). Without getting into detail, they say the qualification "is roughly equivalent to the first year of a degree course."That's persuasive only if you accept that the ISTD has the final word on what constitutes a dance teacher.

I don't think any of the very talented salsa teachers whose lessons I've attended would agree.

David Bailey
7th-October-2005, 09:55 PM
There is a good example of what is required to teach other forms of dance at the ISTD Website (http://www.istd.org/training/teachingqualifications/cde.htm). Without getting into detail, they say the qualification "is roughly equivalent to the first year of a degree course."
Very interesting, thanks for the link. It looks like a fascinating course, comprehensive and wide-ranging. And we have the example of people like Amir to show us how "proper training" can produce great teachers.

However, I've no idea whether any of the dance teachers I've had, in any style, have been through this type of course. But I know that I've learnt more from Ceroc teachers than from all the others put together. The sheer effectiveness of a national standard of widespread teachers, all teaching to at least a minimum standard, is hard to deny.

I'd guess that the vast majority of adult dance teaching going on in the UK (by number of students if nothing else) is be either salsa or MJ. And it seems strange that the ISTD doesn't give much priority to these.

For example, both salsa and Argentinian Tango are buried under the "club dance" section ( :confused: ), as is Lindy Hop and West Coast Swing. But there are two whole sections for ballet. And none for MJ.

Don't get me wrong - it looks like a highly disciplined and wide-ranging set of courses are available, and I'm sure there are good and valid reasons for the dance styles chosen. But the impression I get from the site is that the relationship between the ISTD and the type of partner dancing most people want to learn is fairly distant. The site feels, I dunno, a bit old-fashioned somehow.


Hopefully someone involved with the CTA can post similar information on what is involved in becoming a Ceroc teacher.
But that's be breaking the CCO (Ceroc Code of Omerta), surely? Don't they shoot you for that or something? :whistle:

OK, from the ceroc.com site (http://www.ceroc.com/members/teaching.htm):

"Applicants are required to pass an audition before progressing onto the Ceroc Teacher Training Courses, which comprise of Beginner, Intermediate and Advance level. Training courses are interspersed at regular intervals and training is usually completed within six months. Each course is supported by comprehensive reading material which trainees will be expected to learn in preparation for their course. "

From what little I know, these courses are a few days in duration, are very intense (and quite stressful), and focus very much on teaching The Ceroc Way Of Dancing, and very little on dance technique per se.

(It also says ceroc teachers need to be "Fit, Outgoing, Lively, Enthusiastic, Committed, Approachable, Well presented and Charismatic". Hmmm... :innocent: )

Also:

That's persuasive only if you accept that the ISTD has the final word on what constitutes a dance teacher.
I don't think we should accept that, for the reasons I outlined. But CTA training clearly has serious limitations (apart from the whole ethics of the cloning debate of course :devil: ) - it doesn't cover one-tenth of the detail of the ISTD course for example (anatomy? academic research / essays? etc.)


I don't think any of the very talented salsa teachers whose lessons I've attended would agree.
I've probably attended several hundred salsa classes at least, given by several dozen teachers (God, it sounds scary saying that - and I'm still crap at it :tears: ) over the last ten years. There are some great ones, but I believe they're the exceptions - the majority are pretty poor. Put it this way - I've taught salsa. :rofl:

One can only reasonably conclude that the CTA teaches you how to teach Ceroc, and that the ISTD teaches you how to teach other dance styles, but there seems to be no easy way for a Ceroc teacher to merge the two - there seems no obvious ISTD-sanctioned avenue to go down for a Ceroc teacher.

So, presumably, most Ceroc teachers don't know that much about "proper dancing", but also, most "proper dance" teachers don't teach what most people want to learn.

Wow, this started out as a really short post...

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 11:11 PM
David, leave aside aerials (which I understand is an area you focus on)Contrary to appearances, I'm happy to hear about other aspects of dance - I tend to weigh in on aerials because it's the one area where I can be fairly sure I know what I'm talking about. I was starting to wish I'd picked something else as an example, but then I'd have been in the same position as the punters - i.e. I'd have no idea whether or not the teacher was making a b*stardized mess of their tango/salsa/capoeira workshop.

And do you think, that as Gus so clearly puts it, that "there is a world of difference between a MJ teacher teaching dance and a proper dance teacher teaching dance", and that therefore an MJ teacher can't be a proper dance teacher?I think Gus made it fairly clear his concern was about teachers with a purely MJ background. With that proviso - I'm not sure, to be honest. All the MJ teachers I rate highly have a lot more background than just MJ, but I don't claim to know all of them, and I'm probably maligning many. But I think part of what is required to be a really good teacher is a general breadth and perspective that you don't get from teaching one dance style once or twice a week; that would not be unique to MJ - a WCS teacher who did that would be unlikely to count as an expert either. I think part of the whole ISTD thing is ensuring the teachers do have that kind of depth.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 02:24 AM
I think Gus made it fairly clear his concern was about teachers with a purely MJ background. With that proviso - I'm not sure, to be honest. All the MJ teachers I rate highly have a lot more background than just MJ, but I don't claim to know all of them, and I'm probably maligning many. But I think part of what is required to be a really good teacher is a general breadth and perspective that you don't get from teaching one dance style once or twice a week; that would not be unique to MJ - a WCS teacher who did that would be unlikely to count as an expert either. I think part of the whole ISTD thing is ensuring the teachers do have that kind of depth.It's possible that if every MJ teacher in the country had a dozen or more years of dance experience in a range of disciplines that the MJ scene would be entirely different. I'd also suggest that it's possible that if a decade of dance background and a year's full-time study were a prerequisite for CTA membership you might be able to count the number of Ceroc teachers (and Ceroc nights nationally) on the fingers of two hands, and the number of Modern Jivers in three digits. Personally I'd say it was more than possible, I'd say it was a certainty.

So there's a certain irony in complaining about a lack of dance experience of MJ teachers (you could probably make the same criticism of Salsa teachers, Salsa being the other successful, widespread partner dance in the UK) on a Forum that would not exist and among a group of friends who would never have met if you insisted that every teacher was qualified in the way you ask.

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 09:50 AM
It's possible that if every MJ teacher in the country had a dozen or more years of dance experience in a range of disciplines that the MJ scene would be entirely different. I'd also suggest that it's possible that if a decade of dance background and a year's full-time study were a prerequisite for CTA membership you might be able to count the number of Ceroc teachers (and Ceroc nights nationally) on the fingers of two hands, and the number of Modern Jivers in three digits. Personally I'd say it was more than possible, I'd say it was a certainty.Which, given that I didn't suggest any of the above, seems somewhat irrelevant. When you want to have a discussion as opposed to scoring debating points, let me know.

Heather
8th-October-2005, 10:00 AM
Possibly, though I understand politics has even more examples of the latter type than even the legal profession...


I think David B meant the bar as in 'provider of alcoholic and other liquid refreshments!!' Correct me if I am wrong David:wink:

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
xx

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 10:08 AM
Which, given that I didn't suggest any of the above, seems somewhat irrelevant. When you want to have a discussion as opposed to scoring debating points, let me know.Well, let's see:

I think Gus made it fairly clear his concern was about teachers with a purely MJ background. With that proviso - I'm not sure, to be honest. All the MJ teachers I rate highly have a lot more background than just MJ, but I don't claim to know all of them, and I'm probably maligning many. But I think part of what is required to be a really good teacher is a general breadth and perspective that you don't get from teaching one dance style once or twice a week; that would not be unique to MJ - a WCS teacher who did that would be unlikely to count as an expert either. I think part of the whole ISTD thing is ensuring the teachers do have that kind of depth.Which bit have I misunderstood? You definitely seem to be asking for more experience of other dance styles than the CTA insists on.

I feel that the more stringent the requirements you place on your teachers, the harder they're going to be to find and recruit (and possibly the less interested they're going to be in teaching MJ instead of something more complex), and therefore the fewer of them they are going to be. I'm only here because of the accessibility of Ceroc and because of their commercial decision to expand from just a single venue by recruiting more teachers. I'd feel rather silly criticizing the lack of dance background of the many teachers whose classes I'd attended and benefitted from over the last few years.

I (honestly) don't understand what you mean about "debating points." I thought the point of a discussion was that we respond with thoughts raised by and extensions to each other's posts which is all I've done here, as anywhere. I'm not trying to prove you "wrong", not least because to some extent I agree with what you say.

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 10:17 AM
I think David B meant the bar as in 'provider of alcoholic and other liquid refreshments!!' Correct me if I am wrong David:wink: Yes, I think that was his meaning as well. But given the potential ambiguity and Lily's profession, I thought I'd go for the funny response. Failed, obviously... :tears: That will teach me to try to score humour points...

Tiggerbabe
8th-October-2005, 10:24 AM
given the potential ambiguity and Lily's profession, I thought I'd go for the funny response. Failed, obviously... :tears:
Made me laugh, David, :hug: :rofl:

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 10:26 AM
I (honestly) don't understand what you mean about "debating points." I thought the point of a discussion was that we respond with thoughts raised by and extensions to each other's posts which is all I've done here, as anywhere.I don't consider it acceptible for you to "extend" my posts to mean something different. I'm not the first (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=152467&postcount=14) to complain about this.

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 10:30 AM
Made me laugh, David, :hug: :rofl:Applause and laughter gratefully received. But truely sincere appreciation can best be shown by positive rep...

[David James]
You begin to learn, young padawan - but I am still the master rep tart...
[/David James]

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 10:37 AM
I don't consider it acceptible for you to "extend" my posts to mean something different. I'm not the first (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=152467&postcount=14) to complain about this.I'm not extending your posts. I'm extending the discussion by giving you my responses to your posts. If I've misunderstood anything you've said, then I apologise humbly, and welcome being corrected. In what way did I understand you wrongly, or misrepresent you?

And do you or don't you agree that if you insisted on more dance experience in MJ teachers that there would be fewer of them, fewer MJ classes, and fewer MJ dancers? Or is that not a relevant question to you what you and Gus are saying?

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 11:33 AM
I'm not extending your posts. I'm extending the discussion by giving you my responses to your posts. If I've misunderstood anything you've said, then I apologise humbly, and welcome being corrected. In what way did I understand you wrongly, or misrepresent you?I think it was the mysterious change from "to be a really good teacher you need general breadth and perspective that you don't get from teaching one dance style once or twice a week" to "every MJ teacher in the country having a dozen or more years of dance experience in a range of disciplines".

I don't intend to discuss this any further. You are quite capable of working it out. If you choose not to, that's up to you.

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 11:49 AM
{ argumentative stuff }
*Dons referee hat, blows whistle*

Oy - stop arguing, you two, and bow down in humbleness at my post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=158810&postcount=20), which was clearly much better than anyody else's.

I spent a lot of time on that, you know... :tears:


And do you or don't you agree that if you insisted on more dance experience in MJ teachers that there would be fewer of them, fewer MJ classes, and fewer MJ dancers? Or is that not a relevant question to you what you and Gus are saying?
Yes, if you raise the entry bar on "being a teacher" to the levels of commitment required by the ISTD, you'll get less teachers, and less students, and less mass appeal for partner dancing. Which would be a Bad Thing, on balance; although the average level of teaching would presumably be better, there'd be many many less students, and MJ would be a small minority dance.

But I don't think that's the argument - the point was one about the different levels of teacher-dom, surely?

I'm not convinced the ISTD is the be-all and end-all, as I said in my super-post, but it'd be great to have an ISTD (or similar) type of career progression incorporated into the CTA syllabus.

Of course, this could be happening already, but who knows with the CTA, it's like the 1970's-era Kremlin for openness and transparency. :rolleyes:

FWIW, the LeRoc training affiliation with the UK Alliance of dance looks interesting - they actually offer exams in LeRoc (and salsa).

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 11:59 AM
But I don't think that's the argument - the point was one about the different levels of teacher-dom, surely?

I'm not convinced the ISTD is the be-all and end-all, as I said in my super-post, but it'd be great to have an ISTD (or similar) type of career progression incorporated into the CTA syllabus.Exactly. And even then, "level" depends on what you're looking for. To take the academic analogy, I'm a maths graduate. Without context, if you ask me "what do you need to be a good maths teacher?", I'm going to answer at least a good maths degree, probably with post-graduate study as well. Do you need that to teach nursery children? Of course not. But at whatever level, I think the ideal is to be at least a couple of "steps" ahead of the students - it enables you to point out all kinds of broader implications and issues where appropriate.

In the original context Gus and I were talking about, the issue is slightly different again. We're worried about the history graduates teaching maths...

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 12:09 PM
I think it was the mysterious change from "to be a really good teacher you need general breadth and perspective that you don't get from teaching one dance style once or twice a week" to "every MJ teacher in the country having a dozen or more years of dance experience in a range of disciplines".

I don't intend to discuss this any further. You are quite capable of working it out. If you choose not to, that's up to you.David, please don't strop; you're better than that.

I asked specifically what did constitute "dance experience" here. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=158790&postcount=16)

DavidB pointed me towards the ISTD website, and their Certificate in Dance Education. Given that it claims to be "roughly equivalent to the first year of a degree course", that means a year's full time study. And if it's at degree course level then it's not ab initio study, but requires that students have some background in the subject they're learning to teach. How many years of maths study in total do you need before you can enrol for a PGCE to teach the subject?

You say that "part of the whole ISTD thing is ensuring the teachers do have that kind of depth." So I understand that you validate the ISTD example as giving that kind of depth of experience you'd like to see; you certainly don't make it clear that the ISTD requirements are above and beyond it.

So no, it's not a mysterious change from one to the other. I might well have misunderstood what you meant to say. I might have misunderstood the requirements for the ISTD course. But I think my interpretation of what you wrote is understandable, if incorrect. And if it is incorrect then it's a genuine error on my part.

Let me ask you a third time: do you think that requiring MJ teachers to have more experience of other forms of dance would mean fewer MJ teachers, and fewer MJ dancers?

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 12:20 PM
I'd also suggest that it's possible that if a decade of dance background and a year's full-time study were a prerequisite for CTA membership you might be able to count the number of Ceroc teachers (and Ceroc nights nationally) on the fingers of two hands, and the number of Modern Jivers in three digits. Personally I'd say it was more than possible, I'd say it was a certainty.

This is true, but irrelevant, as it is on other occasions when people bemoan calls for increasing standards on the grounds that if high standards were insisted on everywhere, far fewer would be able to meet them.

It's true (obviously), but not relevant, since no one is insisting on universally unmeetable standards.

It's like MacDonalds. It's a product. You know what you're getting. It's everywhere. That is a good thing, not a bad thing. However, it would be a bad thing if everyone was forced to have Big Macs all the time because there were no other restaurants available.

Fortunately, there are, so people in search of particular styles of food, and high standards in its presentation, can find it.

In MJ, there are hordes of people who enjoy going out once every week or two, doing intermediate moves with bouncy hands to an exclusive diet of thumpy pop. There's nothing wrong with this at all.

The problem arises when the small proportion of those people that discover they want something more, can't find it anywhere. If there were a path that allowed genuine progression into more advanced dancing within MJ, that minority can be satisfied, without their having to go right back to square one with a dance form that might be far more difficult to master.

So you get discussions on a forum like this, which self-selects those that are more likely to be in the "want more" category.

I've seen very little disagreement with the basic principle that for MJ to remain accessible, it shouldn't go too far in the direction of perfection in dance technique at beginners level, but for it to provide as well for dedicated improvers, it needs more injections of excellence.

And if injecting excellence means,among other things, pulling in some teachers, as Gus suggests, with real dance experience, and who have the ability to translate that into teaching people who want to improve, but can't devote 20 hours a week to it, that would be a good thing.

I'd much rather see people dicuss how to actually achieve this, than bicker endlessly about the merits of making a PhD a prerequisite for entrance to primary school, because no one is actually suggesting doing that.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 12:29 PM
The problem arises when the small proportion of those people that discover they want something more, can't find it anywhere.I don't want to misunderstand you, so let me ask four questions:

Are you saying that there is a cadre of dancers who discover they want something more but can't find it anywhere?

Is the reason that they can't find it anywhere because they don't know where to look?

Or is the reason that they can't find it because what they're looking for doesn't at the moment exist within Modern Jive?

(Chris, I'm only asking because I want to know what you think. I'm not being argumentative, OK?)

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 12:33 PM
Let me ask you a third time: do you think that requiring MJ teachers to have more experience of other forms of dance would mean fewer MJ teachers, and fewer MJ dancers?Who do you think you are, Jeremy Paxman? :whistle:

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 12:53 PM
I don't want to misunderstand you, so let me ask four questions:
Er, that's three questions. :flower: :D



Are you saying that there is a cadre of dancers who discover they want something more but can't find it anywhere?
Yes. Also (see below) people that want it but can't find enough of it.



Is the reason that they can't find it anywhere because they don't know where to look?
I expect this is true of some.



Or is the reason that they can't find it because what they're looking for doesn't at the moment exist within Modern Jive?

I don't think enough of it exists in MJ for enough of the people that want it to get as much as they want, often enough. And, as I've said elsewhere, this includes the music.

I also think there's an additional group that don't discover that they'd want more if it was more accessible and they were exposed more to it.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 01:08 PM
I don't think enough of it exists in MJ for enough of the people that want it to get as much as they want, often enough. And, as I've said elsewhere, this includes the music.

I also think there's an additional group that don't discover that they'd want more if it was more accessible and they were exposed more to it.Let's leave the music aside, and stick to the dance instruction. When I said "doesn't exist in MJ", I meant "hasn't been invented, or hasn't ever been put into an MJ context." If that were the case someone would need to go out and develop/innovate the dance beyond where it sits at the present. BUT - given that you say the problem is finding *enough* of what you want, it does already exist, so that's not the primary hurdle to satisfying your wishes.

Let me suggest a traditional capitalist solution to any problem: market forces. If the level of dance instruction you'd like were sufficiently lucrative then it might attract experienced dance teachers from other disciplines, who could be selected according to their uber-qualities, both in teaching and dance skills. No doubt, in time, and with effort they could extend these skills into Modern Jive. If the rewards were high enough there would be an incentive to do so.

So how to make it lucrative? Have a high price to attend. Serious question: if a four hour workshop were £200 instead of £30 - but it was at the level and quality you wanted - would you pay up?

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 01:20 PM
Er, that's three questions. :flower: :D

Ah, but if you want to be picky (and I'm clearly your man for this sort of thing), he also said:

(Chris, I'm only asking because I want to know what you think. I'm not being argumentative, OK?)
So technically, he's right. :innocent:

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 01:23 PM
So how to make it lucrative? Have a high price to attend. Serious question: if a four hour workshop were £200 instead of £30 - but it was at the level and quality you wanted - would you pay up?Unlikely - I could get 3-4 hours of private lessons for that price. The price/demand curve sets practical restrictions on the price of a workshop. I'm guessing £30 is near the optimum - I'm willing to pay significantly more than that, but only if the numbers are quite limited.

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 01:26 PM
When I said "doesn't exist in MJ", I meant "hasn't been invented, or hasn't ever been put into an MJ context."
And I think I agree with that - or at least, any solutions haven't been created which have been officially incorporated by Ceroc, or (AFAIK) any other MJ organisation.

As a punter, once you've done all the workshops, that's it - there's nowhere else to go really in terms of learning the advanced stuff, no officially-sanctioned sessions for either teacher or customer.


So how to make it lucrative? Have a high price to attend. Serious question: if a four hour workshop were £200 instead of £30 - but it was at the level and quality you wanted - would you pay up?
No. But, I might pay £50, if I knew it were going to be "that much better"...

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 01:30 PM
Unlikely - I could get 3-4 hours of private lessons for that price. The price/demand curve sets practical restrictions on the price of a workshop. I'm guessing £30 is near the optimum - I'm willing to pay significantly more than that, but only if the numbers are quite limited.I can't square what you say about the 'price/demand' curve setting limitations on the price of a workshop with what ChrisA says about there not being enough of 'it' for the people who want 'it' to get as much of 'it' as they want. If people won't pay more for 'it', how badly do they want 'it'?

Can ChrisA (and anyone else) who wants advanced teaching not have private lessons? Is there a shortage of teachers (of the right calibre) so it's hard to book a slot?

(No, I'm not being argumentative, I really want to know the answer.)

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 01:36 PM
So how to make it lucrative? Have a high price to attend. Serious question: if a four hour workshop were £200 instead of £30 - but it was at the level and quality you wanted - would you pay up?
I agree totally with the principle, but for a workshop with, say 5-10 couples, I think the price is a bit on the high side - though for a one off, where everything was absolutely perfect, what I wanted, taught brilliantly, all at the right level for the workshop, yes I probably would.

Though I've never seen a MJ teacher worth anything like that kind of money, for a workshop. For private lessons, I'd put Amir and Nina as worth that kind of hourly rate, but I'd be hard pushed to think of any others.

If I had that kind of money at the moment then the way I'd spend it would be in private lessons with Amir and Nina, alternating weeks, and add the occasional lesson with someone from other disciplines such as WCS or Latin.

But I don't agree with excluding the music - or the venues, or the space, or the other dancers for that matter. It's no good getting all the teaching in the world without being able to put it into practice.

But let me anticipate another question - I'd happily pay £20 for a weekend freestyle, if I could rely on having great music, plenty of space, and plenty of like minded dancers.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 01:40 PM
...

Though I've never seen a MJ teacher worth anything like that kind of money, for a workshop. For private lessons, I'd put Amir and Nina as worth that kind of hourly rate, but I'd be hard pushed to think of any others.

...

Interesting. Remember though that the purpose of charging and paying more would be to tempt new teachers into MJ away from other fields. The fact that you don't think any current MJ teachers are worth that (I neither agree nor disagree, btw) is beside the point.

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 01:45 PM
I can't square what you say about the 'price/demand' curve setting limitations on the price of a workshop with what ChrisA says about there not being enough of 'it' for the people who want 'it' to get as much of 'it' as they want. If people won't pay more for 'it', how badly do they want 'it'?Fair question. Bottom line - the average MJ dancer is notoriously unkeen on spending money... Also, (see below), some of those who could teach have the situation of "well, I'd have to charge you £100 an hour for it to be worth my while. And I don't think I'm actually worth £100 an hour, so I'd rather not do it".


Can ChrisA (and anyone else) who wants advanced teaching not have private lessons? Is there a shortage of teachers so it's hard to book a slot?There's a definite shortage of professional MJ teachers. Many of the people I might take privates from have demanding full-time jobs, and they don't work in a dance studio. So arranging a private may mean booking studio time and factoring in travel time. Either it's very expensive or it's not worth the teacher's time (unless they are doing it for the love of the dance).

If I were to look for private lessons, in general I'd probably look outside MJ, where the infrastructure is more established. I'd have to accept they might not know a lot about MJ. I'm not sure how that fits into your thoughts or not. As I said earlier, I think the "snob" factor means those teachers would be more seeking to seduce people away from MJ rather than to be drawn towards it. But maybe money talks louder than snobbery...

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 01:48 PM
If people won't pay more for 'it', how badly do they want 'it'?

For workshops, I don't think it's about money, there are other practical limitations.

A couple of years ago there was the prospect of Amir doing a series of evening masterclasses for about 10 couples that were prepared to make an upfront commitment to the cost and the time. We figured that a one-off workshop, while great in itself, was just that - a one off, and something more sustained was needed so that people could learn properly, with coaching, practice in between, and then more coaching.

The reason the idea foundered was nothing to do with the money. It was just too difficult to get everyone together on enough of the dates to make it viable.

I guess you could say they just didn't want it badly enough. I was gutted though :tears:



Can ChrisA (and anyone else) who wants advanced teaching not have private lessons? Is there a shortage of teachers (of the right calibre) so it's hard to book a slot?

It's not easy to get the slots, but it's not impossible by any means.

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 01:53 PM
Remember though that the purpose of charging and paying more would be to tempt new teachers into MJ away from other fields. The fact that you don't think any current MJ teachers are worth that (I neither agree nor disagree, btw) is beside the point.
Ah, Ok.

I don't think it would be feasible to do this at any practical cost. To pull teachers established in a "proper" dance form out of that and into a "plebby" dance form such as ours (like it or not, this is how MJ is viewed outside) would take so much money to override all the other considerations that it just wouldn't happen.

I'd rather go and get private lessons from good Latin or WCS teachers, and then work out how to use the material in MJ myself.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 02:21 PM
Ah, Ok.

I don't think it would be feasible to do this at any practical cost. To pull teachers established in a "proper" dance form out of that and into a "plebby" dance form such as ours (like it or not, this is how MJ is viewed outside) would take so much money to override all the other considerations that it just wouldn't happen.

I'd rather go and get private lessons from good Latin or WCS teachers, and then work out how to use the material in MJ myself.If people who's dance background is other forms of dance can't possibly be enticed into MJ because it's too "plebby" (?), and people who grew up knowing only MJ can't have the breadth of experience that it is claimed is required to be a great dance teacher, then we've reached a bit of an impasse, wouldn't you say?

My opinion is that the whole argument is bogus because it's based around the premise that you must have a varied dance background to be a great dance teacher, which I don't agree with. What I think you do need is a clear understanding of the material that you're teaching coupled with skilled communication, and sometimes one or other of those elements is only gained by dint of long experience in varied fields. But it's not the only way.

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 02:43 PM
My opinion is that the whole argument is bogus because it's based around the premise that you must have a varied dance background to be a great dance teacher, which I don't agree with. What I think you do need is a clear understanding of the material that you're teaching coupled with skilled communication, and sometimes one or other of those elements is only gained by dint of long experience in varied fields. But it's not the only way.
Ok, so what are some other ways?

And name some teachers that have done it in these other ways.

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 03:03 PM
If people who's dance background is other forms of dance can't possibly be enticed into MJ because it's too "plebby" (?)
MJ is indeed seen as plebby by many ballroom-er, but that's not because MJ is plebby, it's more because the ballroom world is chock-ful of snobs. The more times I see Strictly Ballroom, the less satirical and more documentary-like it seems.


My opinion is that the whole argument is bogus because it's based around the premise that you must have a varied dance background to be a great dance teacher, which I don't agree with.
Was that the argument? Hmmm, I've lost track now.

If it was, I agree with you - it's helpful to have a broad background, but certainly not mandatory.

But I assumed the argument was that there are "proper dance teachers" and "MJ dance teachers" - and that's something I think has some truth in it.

Snobbery aside, someone spending a year or more of his/her time studying a topic full-time, will probably know more about the topic than someone who mainly studies the topic part-time, in a less structured environment. And yes, sometimes that's the difference between a professional and an amateur.

It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the CTA as is - but it means there's more to teaching dance, even in teaching MJ, than is dreamt of in the CTA's syllabi.

And also, that the ISTD should be less stuck-up and more flexible, of course.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 03:11 PM
Ok, so what are some other ways?

And name some teachers that have done it in these other ways.I think it takes different people different amounts of time to get to the stage of being able to teach something. Some people can teach a new skill (following a dance? riding a bicycle or skateboard? rollerblading? using a new piece of computer software?) shortly after learning it, because they can make use of the recent experience of making that leap themselves. Other people might only feel confident teaching it years after mastering the skill.

In terms of not have a deep grounding in classical dance, yet still being highly rated teachers (in my eyes, at least): With humble apologies to both august gentlemen if I misrepresent them, but I believe that neither Mick Wenger nor Viktor (Dancing Teeth) had dance experience prior to trying Ceroc.

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 03:12 PM
If it was, I agree with you - it's helpful to have a broad background, but certainly not mandatory.And I agreed as well. It's just that in practical terms, I can't think of any really good teacher without the background. As much as anything, I think to be good you need to be really enthusiastic about dance, and if you're really enthusiastic about dance, you'll want to look at the whole subject, not just MJ.

Also - even if you're a self-taught "dance savant", formal training helps give you the 'vocabulary' to teach others.

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 03:24 PM
MJ is indeed seen as plebby by many ballroom-er, but that's not because MJ is plebby, it's more because the ballroom world is chock-ful of snobs. The more times I see Strictly Ballroom, the less satirical and more documentary-like it seems.

One man's snobbery is another man's insistence on high standards. We see here all the time situations where one person or another is reminded of the fact that they're not as good a dancer as they'd like, and they blame the entire experience on someone else's perceived snobbery.

So I bet it's just the same in the ballroom world - some people are snobby, and some aren't.

Indeed I have direct knowledge of two Ballroom/Latin schools. One isn't very snobby - the entire emphasis is on the social aspect of the dancing, rather than improving the dancing. Watching them dance is very similar to watching the freestyle at a typical MJ club night - they're having fun, but the dancing isn't very good.

At the other one, there's much more of an emphasis on technique and improving. But it didn't strike me as particularly snobby.

Except, in both cases, in the attitude towards MJ from the teachers :rofl:

It's all about perspective...

The thing is, there's choice. If you want to go and be a brilliant dancer, there are places where you can learn. If you don't, but just want to have fun and socialise, you can do that too.

But could the best of ballroom/latin be as good, if there weren't people insisting on high standards, encouraging a competitive spirit, disappointing those that don't make the grade?

Don't forget, we get to benefit from the best too, by having shows like Burn the Floor available to go and drool over.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 03:32 PM
And I agreed as well. It's just that in practical terms, I can't think of any really good teacher without the background. As much as anything, I think to be good you need to be really enthusiastic about dance, and if you're really enthusiastic about dance, you'll want to look at the whole subject, not just MJ.

Also - even if you're a self-taught "dance savant", formal training helps give you the 'vocabulary' to teach others.The argument has slid then, from where we started with whether to be a great dance teacher a "general breadth and perspective" (of which the ISTD syllabus was held up to be an example) is mandatory to (now) simply being enthusiastic about dancing in general, having "looked at the whole subject" - at some level, and undergoing sufficient formal training to have the vocabulary to teach others.

Just out of interest, what's Nigel's dance background, does anyone know?

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 03:41 PM
I think it takes different people different amounts of time to get to the stage of being able to teach something. Some people can teach a new skill (following a dance? riding a bicycle or skateboard? rollerblading? using a new piece of computer software?) shortly after learning it, because they can make use of the recent experience of making that leap themselves. Other people might only feel confident teaching it years after mastering the skill.

Agreed, but we're not talking about teaching beginners MJ here.

I taught someone to moonwalk very shortly after learning to do it myself. But that doesn't mean I can teach people to dance like Michael Jackson.



In terms of not have a deep grounding in classical dance, yet still being highly rated teachers (in my eyes, at least): With humble apologies to both august gentlemen if I misrepresent them, but I believe that neither Mick Wenger nor Viktor (Dancing Teeth) had dance experience prior to trying Ceroc.
I believe that this is correct.

I haven't seen Mick teach for quite a long time, so I'll only comment on Viktor..

He's right up there amongst the MJ teachers, certainly, and would come close to being an exception. I remember his classes at Bisley, where he made some of the hardest MJ moves more accessible than anyone I've ever encountered.

If I want some hard, arm-winding moves that look good when done really well, I'd probably go to Viktor.

But I want to learn to dance as well, not just to do really hard moves. And with every respect to the great guy, I don't believe even Viktor can teach people to do what he does. And AFAIK, he doesn't try. And he has done a lot of Salsa as well as MJ.

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 03:46 PM
The argument has slid then, from where we started with whether to be a great dance teacher a "general breadth and perspective" (of which the ISTD syllabus was held up to be an example) is mandatory to (now) simply being enthusiastic about dancing in general, having "looked at the whole subject" - at some level, and undergoing sufficient formal training to have the vocabulary to teach others.

This is a complete distortion of what Dave said. Do you do it deliberately?

David Franklin
8th-October-2005, 03:51 PM
Deleted. I can't be bothered arguing about what I said v.s. what ESG thinks I meant.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 03:55 PM
This is a complete distortion of what Dave said. Do you do it deliberately?It *so* is *not* a distortion of what he said! Read what he said word for word! Tell me where I've got it wrong!

"As much as anything," .... (i.e. what's coming next is the most important bit)

"I think to be good" .... (in other words, to be a good teacher...)

"you need to be really enthusiastic about dance" ... (you need to be enthusiastic about dance...)

"and if you're really enthusiastic about dance, you'll want to look at the whole subject, not just MJ." (...and will have tried many styles of dance.)

Goodness, I'm enthusiastic about dance. I've tried Salsa, Lindy, WCS, Six types of ballroom and Latin as well as Ceroc. So even I pass this latest test! Hurrah!

Well perhaps the problem is that I'm not capable of understanding English? Or perhaps the problem is the David's writing ambigous posts capable of any one of a dozen interpretations?

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 04:12 PM
It *so* is *not* a distortion of what he said! Read what he said word for word! Tell me where I've got it wrong!

...blah...


Politicians and lawyers know just how easy it is to take something says out of context (only slightly will do), dissect it, and prove that black is white, at the same time sounding very genuine, and making the other guy out to look an idiot.

What's much harder is to see through the occasional imperfections in the way someone expresses an idea, to the idea itself. This requires sensitivity, and the ability not to concentrate on the detail at the expense of the wider picture.

If you like, a "let's get at the truth" rather than an adversarial approach.

On a dance forum, rather than a court of law, I think skills in the latter are more important than in the former.

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 04:13 PM
Whilst we're talking about people:


Just out of interest, what's Nigel's dance background, does anyone know?
Not a clue. Nina had a lot of jazz dancing background, it that helps? It's less obvious now, since she's done so much other stuff over the years.

And as for Viktor:

But I want to learn to dance as well, not just to do really hard moves. And with every respect to the great guy, I don't believe even Viktor can teach people to do what he does.
:yeah: Even with Viktor, it's clear from watching him that he's a natural dancer with his own unique style, which is very different from what I'd call a "classical" (ballroom-based) background. Just watch his posture; great, but unconventional. Which probably counted against him in the SDF heats, thinking about it. I haven't done a Viktor class in over a decade, so I've no idea about what he teaches.

But yes, there's a case for saying the exceptions are few and far between.

P.S. I am so not getting involved in the bitch-fight, I've done enough refereeing today, and you're both bigger than me. Although obviously I'm better-looking.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 04:17 PM
Politicians and lawyers know just how easy it is to take something says out of context (only slightly will do), dissect it, and prove that black is white, at the same time sounding very genuine, and making the other guy out to look an idiot.

What's much harder is to see through the occasional imperfections in the way someone expresses an idea, to the idea itself. This requires sensitivity, and the ability not to concentrate on the detail at the expense of the wider picture.

If you like, a "let's get at the truth" rather than an adversarial approach.

On a dance forum, rather than a court of law, I think skills in the latter are more important than in the former.If David was in the habit of writing unambigously then I wouldn't be able to misunderstand him.

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 04:30 PM
I think it was the "as much as anything" that was wrong.

In:


I think to be good you need to be really enthusiastic about dance, and if you're really enthusiastic about dance, you'll want to look at the whole subject, not just MJ.

Also - even if you're a self-taught "dance savant", formal training helps give you the 'vocabulary' to teach others.

... I'd say that this is necessary, but nowhere near sufficient.

And taking what he's said about it as a whole, there's not much ambiguity. This is why I don't much like the "take one post and rip it apart" approach to debate.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 04:40 PM
And taking what he's said about it as a whole, there's not much ambiguity. This is why I don't much like the "take one post and rip it apart" approach to debate.I didn't think there was any ambiguity whatsoever, especially when the post starts with DavidJames's quote "it's helpful to have a broad background, but certainly not mandatory." with which DavidF straightaway said he agreed.

If I used more smileys, would that be a better style of debate?

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :really: :really: :really: :really: :really: :rofl: :rofl: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug:

(you know, these are quite tricky to do, artfully. I never realised. Is there a workshop?)

MartinHarper
8th-October-2005, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted on rec.arts.guzzling
I'd love an ice cream about now
I'd love one too, but too much ice cream makes me fat
That's irrelevant: I didn't talk about having too much ice cream.
Yes, but too much ice cream is an extension of having one ice cream.
That's an unacceptable extension of my desire for ice cream.
I'm not extending your desire. How have I misunderstood?
You mysteriously changed 'an ice cream' to 'too much ice cream'. I don't intend to discuss this further.
Let me ask you a third time, do you think having too much ice cream will make me fat?
I'm discussing this further!
Oh no you're not!
I think to really appreciate ice cream, you need to have both chocolate AND vanilla.
Aha, so the argument has slid from having just one ice cream, to having two ice creams, of different flavours.
I don't intend to discuss this further. Again.

----

Dont'cha just love the internet?

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 04:50 PM
If I used more smileys, would that be a better style of debate? What have you got against smileys anyway?

Or is it just your day to hate everything? (I had mine last Weds - my next is due tomorrow I believe).

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 04:53 PM
What have you got against smileys anyway? They're ambiguous and open to interpretation.

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 04:56 PM
They're ambiguous and open to interpretation.
To which I can only reply:
:confused: :rofl: :whistle: :innocent:

LMC
8th-October-2005, 05:11 PM
I've been following this argument with interest (of course...) and would just like to make one tiny humble contribution about teaching in general: being able to explain something to someone else in a such a way they can understand it frequently improves the "teacher's" own understanding of whatever it is that's being talked about.

From that point of view, anyone who can communicate can teach. That doesn't necessarily mean that they *should*... :devil:

Gus
8th-October-2005, 05:33 PM
..... being able to explain something to someone else in a such a way they can understand it frequently improves the "teacher's" own understanding of whatever it is that's being talked about. From that point of view, anyone who can communicate can teach.:I would say that that means that they can communicate ... not teach. To teach something like dance well you have to understand the principles of a movement, how it interacts with the music/your partner and your own body. Given that all three are variables, that requires a fair old bit of knowledge. As a 'traditional' MJ instructor I can teach anyone on the planet the 1st move as I have been taught it. HOWEVER, to make the 1st move come alive and become the platform for real interpratation that it can be, takes far more understanding of balance, the options for leading and accomodating the potential responses of your partner. And that is a step byond the majority of traditional instructors. AND that is before getting into the various teaching models. Does that make any sense?:confused:

El Salsero Gringo
8th-October-2005, 05:36 PM
I would say that that means that they can communicate ... not teach. To teach something like dance well you have to inderstand the principles of a movement, how it interacts with the music/your partner and your own body. Given that all three are variables, that requires a fair old bit of knowledge. As a 'traditional' MJ instructor I can teach anyone on the planet the 1st move as I have been taught it. HOWEVER, to make the 1st move come alive and become the platform for real interpratation that it can be, takes far more understanding of balance, the options for leading and accomodating the potential responses of your partner. And that is a step byond the majority of traditional instrcutors. AND that is before getting into the various teaching models. Does that make any sense?:confused:It does make sense. Do you think that "making the 1st move come alive" is teachable *at all* - or does it have to come from within?

Aleks
8th-October-2005, 07:06 PM
It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the CTA as is - but it means there's more to teaching dance, even in teaching MJ, than is dreamt of in the CTA's syllabi.

And also, that the ISTD should be less stuck-up and more flexible, of course.


:rofl: I would love to see the face of an RAD teacher after you'd said that - the IDTA are considered 'total pleb' by their standards....and MJ/CTA is probably 'less than plankton"!

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 08:20 PM
:rofl: I would love to see the face of an RAD teacher after you'd said that - the IDTA are considered 'total pleb' by their standards....and MJ/CTA is probably 'less than plankton"!
Heh. I'm sure there are levels of snobbery, indeed. But I don't care what they think - I've got several hundred thousand salsa and MJ dancers on my side, I think we can take 'em.

But, one question does occur to me along these lines - does "professional dance training" actually put you at a slight disadvantage compared to enthusiasts for actually dancing in a particular style?

I'm minded of a dance teacher we had a while back at a local ceroc gaffe, who taught a bit of latin (samba, cha-cha etc.). He was a professional dancer - or at least, more professional than most - but he definitely had problems getting used to MJ.

Another anecdote: watching Lady Salsa, even a few years ago, I was struck by how most of the dancers were professional dancers, but weren't quite as striking as really good club salsa dancers might have been.

And in last week's Bruce's Does Dancing thing, there was a question about one of the films (Rock around the Clock?, where one of the producers was asked whether the street lindy dancers or the studio professional dancers were better - and his answer was the street lindy-ers.

Good dancers are where you find them,

Gadget
8th-October-2005, 09:15 PM
It's all about perspective...

The thing is, there's choice. If you want to go and be a brilliant dancer, there are places where you can learn. If you don't, but just want to have fun and socialise, you can do that too.
So, as long as you don't want to be a brilliant dancer (/just want to have fun and socialise), stick to Ceroc/MJ. Yes?

To me, that's what you seem to be saying over all your posts: "If I want to learn, I'll go to an outside teacher, then addapt what I've learned into MJ."
"When I want to have fun and socialise, I'll dance MJ".

Yae Franck :worthy:

Not only is that what he is doing to himself, he then teaches what he has addapted into MJ, or invites these people to teach others in the MJ community so that the ideas can filter through to them as well.
It's part of the evolution of the dance.

If you want to be a brilliant dancer, there are opportunities within Ceroc - it is not necessary to go to a more structured and recognised "dance school" background of teaching (Note: I'm not denying it will help/work.)

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 09:40 PM
So, as long as you don't want to be a brilliant dancer (/just want to have fun and socialise), stick to Ceroc/MJ. Yes?

No, that's not at all what I'm saying.

I'm saying that even in the ballroom/latin world, the choices are there. You can choose to go and socialise, without all the angst that goes with constantly wanting to be a better dancer. Or you can immerse yourself in the whole teaching/learning/training/competing/winning/losing thing if that's your bag.

I just think that the same choice should be available in the MJ world.

It does exist, I just think that it shouldn't be quite as hard to find as it is.

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 09:44 PM
I'm minded of a dance teacher we had a while back at a local ceroc gaffe, who taught a bit of latin (samba, cha-cha etc.). He was a professional dancer - or at least, more professional than most - but he definitely had problems getting used to MJ.

.... :yeah:

Robert Cordoba did a lesson at Hipsters some months ago.

It was very WCSy, obviously. But he was at pains to somehow convince us that what he was teaching was applicable to MJ, and I think actually it was.

But guess what, when he demo'ed his routine in a MJ sense?

It looked dreadful.

Nicole Cutler did a pretty good job of teaching some Latin style to MJ dancers at our very own Lounge Lizard's venue in Twickenham (RIP) not so long ago... with our very own Sheepman demo'ing. But it still didn't look quite right.

But she was lovely to dance with.

ChrisA
8th-October-2005, 09:54 PM
I'm minded of a dance teacher we had a while back at a local ceroc gaffe
By the way, you either mean "gaff", or this is a little Freudian :wink:

Gadget
9th-October-2005, 12:14 AM
...I just think that the same choice should be available in the MJ world.

It does exist, I just think that it shouldn't be quite as hard to find as it is.
:confused: Sorry, I'm getting confused/mixed interpritations of this: same choice is not available in MJ? Or it does exist, but it's harder to find than it is in other dance worlds?

Perhaps, since the focus in MJ is towards the social side of things, we find a corresponding focus in the teaching of MJ? Is this a "chicken and egg" situatuion?

David Franklin
9th-October-2005, 09:59 AM
Robert Cordoba did a lesson at Hipsters some months ago.

It was very WCSy, obviously. But he was at pains to somehow convince us that what he was teaching was applicable to MJ, and I think actually it was.

But guess what, when he demo'ed his routine in a MJ sense?

It looked dreadful.True. I think there were two things going on here.

Firstly, the "snob" thing. WCS dancers don't see MJ as a serious dance, and aren't prepared to put in the effort to really understand it.

Secondly, the tendancy when demoing "here's how you'd do it in another style" to end up with a caricature. Someone thinks "hmm - MJ is bouncier than WCS, and has more of a stop between counts. So if I want to show how you'd do it in MJ, I'd better dance really bouncy with really pronounced stops". :sick: Conversely, when I've seen Nigel/Nina demonstrate compression/tension in WCS, their "elastic band" is absolutely huge.

I don't think Robert seriously thought that was how you should dance MJ. But it certainly didn't look good...

ChrisA
9th-October-2005, 10:55 AM
Agree with that...

It just goes to show just how good the people are, up at the top of the Ballroom/Latin scene.

To get that good at 10 very different dances, and have them actually look that different, is a feat we probably don't notice half the time, since it's so far beyond what most of us can do, that it just doesn't compute.

David Franklin
9th-October-2005, 11:15 AM
It just goes to show just how good the people are, up at the top of the Ballroom/Latin scene.

To get that good at 10 very different dances, and have them actually look that different, is a feat we probably don't notice half the time, since it's so far beyond what most of us can do, that it just doesn't compute.And to join two threads, having seen Strictly Ballroom Dancing which had a couple of routines to tracks I've also seen MJ showcases for, you realise just how well the ballroom dancers can move their bodies.

MartinHarper
9th-October-2005, 02:55 PM
I've got several hundred thousand salsa and MJ dancers on my side, I think we can take 'em.

On opposite sides, presumably? Otherwise I think you'll get dissent in the ranks.


WCS dancers don't see MJ as a serious dance, and aren't prepared to put in the effort to really understand it.

I think that's more to do with living in the US, far from any MJ venues, teachers, or competitions. I'm not prepared to put in effort understanding Outer Hebridean Three Step, though it's a very serious dance.

David Franklin
9th-October-2005, 05:26 PM
I think that's more to do with living in the US, far from any MJ venues, teachers, or competitions. I'm not prepared to put in effort understanding Outer Hebridean Three Step, though it's a very serious dance.I think it's more than that. If you're feeling brave, try searching the annals of rec.arts.dance for comments about MJ/Ceroc, or, for that matter the fairly recent thread on Yehoodi about Ceroc. Not at all pretty. (Nor particularly fair, if you ask me...)

El Salsero Gringo
9th-October-2005, 05:57 PM
I think it's more than that. If you're feeling brave, try searching the annals of rec.arts.dance for comments about MJ/Ceroc, or, for that matter the fairly recent thread on Yehoodi about Ceroc. Not at all pretty. (Nor particularly fair, if you ask me...)What's the best way to search archives of rec.arts.dance?

ducasi
9th-October-2005, 06:09 PM
What's the best way to search archives of rec.arts.dance? Try a search of, e.g. "ceroc group:rec.arts.dance" at http://groups.google.com/

bigdjiver
9th-October-2005, 08:39 PM
Google has a special newsgroups search function, and the advanced option is a very poweful tool indeed, giving access to decades of mostly uncensored postings.

Aleks
9th-October-2005, 09:17 PM
Heh. I'm sure there are levels of snobbery, indeed. But I don't care what they think - I've got several hundred thousand salsa and MJ dancers on my side, I think we can take 'em.

I didn't mean that there was any need to take notice of their snobbery, just that I found it hilarious that we're discussing our perceived need for the IDTA to loosen up their standards when I know of others wishing they would increase and tighten them! My personal opinion is that each has its own merits. I enjoy each because of their differing requirements of technicality and 'rules'.

bigdjiver
9th-October-2005, 09:34 PM
I think it's more than that. If you're feeling brave, try searching the annals of rec.arts.dance for comments about MJ/Ceroc, or, for that matter the fairly recent thread on Yehoodi about Ceroc. Not at all pretty. (Nor particularly fair, if you ask me...)I could not find a search function on yehoodi. Can you please tell us what thread?

David Franklin
9th-October-2005, 09:46 PM
I could not find a search function on yehoodi. Can you please tell us what thread?http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73281

Some Ceroc clips were discussed. One particular comment stands out:

From Yehoodi
OMG, these videos are just horrible, and people dance like that in france?

The last move should be a classic "Hi, I think I finished fondeling your breasts, now I will do a whip. lets see, how did that one go? rockstep something... oh what the hell, just butch it and I will grope you instead".
It's not totally clear, but matching the clips to the descriptions, I think that's Robert and Nicky (Jivemasters winners) they're talking about! :blush:

spindr
9th-October-2005, 09:56 PM
I could not find a search function on yehoodi. Can you please tell us what thread?
Ah, but if you go to the discussion board, then there is an option to search that:
http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73281&highlight=ceroc

Cheers,
SpinDr,

David Bailey
9th-October-2005, 10:32 PM
just that I found it hilarious that we're discussing our perceived need for the IDTA to loosen up their standards when I know of others wishing they would increase and tighten them!
:confused: Who said anything about loosening up?

I certainly don't want a lowering of standards; I just want an inclusive mechanism to apply the disciplines and structures of the IDTA and similar to the type of dancing I and a few others like doing (that's MJ, by the way).

That's all :innocent:

Dance Demon
10th-October-2005, 06:50 PM
a question that someone hopefully can answer for me........This thread has discussed the various ins & outs of dance styles or codes and mentions " fads" which become fashionable in MJ.....Tango , WCS, Lindy etc etc....
Now, from this we can assume that MJ borrows certain bits from other dance styles, and adapts them to fit......so why, when we get the rules for MJ competitions ( C2D, Ceroc for example)...does it state.." dancers must dance MJ...WCS, Lindy, Salsa are not forms of MJ and are not acceptable".......Surely there must be some ambiguity here, as there are many MJ workshops all over the country, where mambo steps (Salsa)...Sugar pushes (WCS)...Charleston kicks (Lindy)...are taught...........so some people might feel that these steps should be acceptable to dance in a comp, whereas the judges might think that the rules are being infringed.......or maybe thats a different thread:)

Hmmm.....nobody seems to be able to answer this question....or maybe they don't want to:devil:

Gus
10th-October-2005, 07:41 PM
Hmmm.....nobody seems to be able to answer this question....or maybe they don't want to:devil:This is one of the 'deep' questions of MJ that was first raised in anger at the first Ceroc Champs when the basic point was that 'Ceroc' must be danced ... hence the disqualification of Dan and Lisa in the cabaret (despite the fact that Des's cabaret was ENTIRELY Lindy but was allowed through????).

Its a moot point. Most of the developmental workshops I've seen have been based on taking elements of WCS/Salsa/Swing and fusing them with MJ. IMHO, a true basics workshop should look at the fundamentals as they affect ALL partner dance, lead, follow, balance, poise, musical interpretation etc ... BUT with the 'common' MJ framework. Makes sense?

El Salsero Gringo
11th-October-2005, 12:05 PM
Try a search of, e.g. "ceroc group:rec.arts.dance" at http://groups.google.com/Fascinating.

If you look (not too) carefully, you'll even find Franck explaining, in 1998, why competitions are evil, have no place in Ceroc, and under no circumstances should teachers be allowed to enter them :whistle:

Gus
11th-October-2005, 12:57 PM
If you look (not too) carefully, you'll even find Franck explaining, in 1998, why competitions are evil, have no place in Ceroc, and under no circumstances should teachers be allowed to enter them :whistle:Yeah ... its called evolution. If you watch the original Ceroc promo Video (circa 1996) you will see James Cronin teaching the 1st move 'wrong'. The original CTA contracts forbade teachers fomr competing. The world moves on, the dance evolves .... and people like Hipsters, Jango, Frank, Co0l Catz etc innovate .... and eventualy what we consider 'advanced' or 'out there' now, will seem normal and common place in yaers to come ... (who remembers the time before Blues, Mahnahatten steps and Pink Martini?).

David Bailey
11th-October-2005, 07:06 PM
Fascinating.

If you look (not too) carefully, you'll even find Franck explaining, in 1998, why competitions are evil, have no place in Ceroc, and under no circumstances should teachers be allowed to enter them :whistle:
There's also an announcement of Franck of a new forum for discussion of ceroc in, err, Scotland, in 2001. Ahhh...

And, hah, a debate from 1999 about the competition rules in the first Ceroc Champs. :rolleyes:

El Salsero Gringo
11th-October-2005, 07:08 PM
There's also an announcement of Franck of a new forum for discussion of ceroc in, err, Scotland, in 2001. Ahhh...

And, hah, a debate from 1999 about the competition rules in the first Ceroc Champs. :rolleyes:Who played the part of Andy McGregor?

(Actually Franck didn't say that competitions are evil, but he did say that the reason for not allowing teachers to compete was to maintain the multitude of styles in Ceroc and not to say "this is the way it should look like if you want to win". He added that most people aren't interested in competitions and that by not competing, the teacher was supporting that.)

David Bailey
11th-October-2005, 07:57 PM
Yeah ... its called evolution.
Or FSM-ism, if you're a believer in the True Faith.

Seriously, I'm not sure if competitions are a sign of increasing dance levels. In fact, I'm not even sure that the average dance level at MJ events is increasing; and I dunno how such a thing can be measured anyway.

If I understand your point correctly, you're saying something like "XXX are pushing the levels higher, therefore competitions are a natural step in this process", yes? How does that work then?


(who remembers the time before Blues, Mahnahatten steps and Pink Martini?).
Me, me, and err, yep, me. I even remember a time before Gus, that dates me :sad:

David Franklin
11th-October-2005, 08:08 PM
Seriously, I'm not sure if competitions are a sign of increasing dance levels. In fact, I'm not even sure that the average dance level at MJ events is increasing; and I dunno how such a thing can be measured anyway.One way is to look at videos from the past. I think there's a fairly clear progression - I'd be surprised if the 1999 Ceroc advanced champions could reach the intermediate finals today.

Obviously, there's a level of subjectivity - and when it comes to watching who can say what's right or wrong anyhow? (I found it very interesting to read the comments about WCS footwork being too "busy" when I think it's one of the big strengths of WCS over MJ. It's a perfectly reasonable opinion that shows it really is all in the eye of the beholder).


If I understand your point correctly, you're saying something like "XXX are pushing the levels higher, therefore competitions are a natural step in this process", yes? How does that work then?I would have said it goes the other way. Competitions give people something to aim at, and that pushes the standards higher. I'm not sure how much that really is the "competition" side, and how much it's just seeing what is possible and then aspiring towards it yourself. When I saw the champs in 1999, I know my feeling was much more "I want to know how to dance like that" than "I want to compete".

David Bailey
11th-October-2005, 08:27 PM
One way is to look at videos from the past. I think there's a fairly clear progression - I'd be surprised if the 1999 Ceroc advanced champions could reach the intermediate finals today.
I'm sure the competition standard has increased, I'm not disputing that.

What I'm not sure about is whether this has translated in any way to better standards of dancing in an average MJ night.


Obviously, there's a level of subjectivity - and when it comes to watching who can say what's right or wrong anyhow?
Me. Obviously. Who else do you need?


Competitions give people something to aim at, and that pushes the standards higher.
That pushes the standards of the competitors higher, sure. But does that translate to a trickle-down to everyone else, or does that widen the difference between competitive dancing and club dancing?

In other words, how (or if) does it affect the 95%+ of people who don't compete?

David Franklin
11th-October-2005, 08:44 PM
I'm sure the competition standard has increased, I'm not disputing that.

What I'm not sure about is whether this has translated in any way to better standards of dancing in an average MJ night.Now I understand. (Just don't post ambiguous terms like 'MJ event' in future... :whistle: ) There's probably enough video around to settle the latter question as well. My opinion is that the average standard has improved a bit, but nothing like as much as the standard at the top. And the standard of the bottom 40-50% has scarcely improved at all.


That pushes the standards of the competitors higher, sure. But does that translate to a trickle-down to everyone else, or does that widen the difference between competitive dancing and club dancing?Both, I think (see above). More worryingly, social dancing and competitive dancing at the "open" level are becoming increasingly different. Nearly all the top couples use a lot of moves that aren't appropriate to the social floor. And then there are things like visually connecting with the judges (rather than with your partner!), adapting your freestyle to always show your 'best side' (i.e. don't do a drop with your bum to the judges) etc. [Whether judges actually reward these things or not, competitors believe they do, so that's what they practice].

That being said, nearly all the top competition dancers are exceedingly good social dancers; technique and practice makes a big difference.

{Edit:} Just to add - comments from Britroc lead me to think the balance in the "open" may be shifting towards a more social style again. So the pendulum goes...

ChrisA
11th-October-2005, 09:03 PM
That being said, nearly all the top competition dancers are exceedingly good social dancers; technique and practice makes a big difference.

Not that I'd put myself anywhere near either the "top competition dancer" or "exceedingly good social dancer" category, except in my less interesting fantasies, but people did tell me I'd improved on the social dance floor three months or so after I started practising for comps.

But of course that proves nothing in the context of DJ's question. What would be far more interesting would be if lots of non-competition dancers were to testify that they'd been inspired or encouraged to improve by seeing or dancing with the people that have improved as a result of competitions.

I'd like to think it's true... all the people that have inspired me have been very active in the competition scene, but I don't know how common that is.

David Franklin
11th-October-2005, 09:16 PM
That being said, nearly all the top competition dancers are exceedingly good social dancers; technique and practice makes a big difference.
But of course that proves nothing in the context of DJ's question. True. I was just trying to forestall the "flashy competition dancers wouldn't last 5 minutes on a social dance floor!" comments we sometimes get.


What would be far more interesting would be if lots of non-competition dancers were to testify that they'd been inspired or encouraged to improve by seeing or dancing with the people that have improved as a result of competitions.

I'd like to think it's true... all the people that have inspired me have been very active in the competition scene, but I don't know how common that is.But then you compete, so, you're damned anyhow... :devil: Seriously, I think there's a relatively fast uptake of ideas and techniques amongst the competitive dancers and their followers. (Which isn't all good - there's definitely a bit of a tendancy to follow fads). But broader changes largely come from the mainstream teachers. The mainstream does follow the changes to an extent, but it takes longer...

El Salsero Gringo
11th-October-2005, 10:18 PM
Not that I'd put myself anywhere near either the "top competition dancer" or "exceedingly good social dancer" category, except in my less interesting fantasies, but people did tell me I'd improved on the social dance floor three months or so after I started practising for comps.After a few weeks of practice with a single partner, I was told the same thing. But I wasn't practicing for competition, just for the fun of it. So the competition element isn't always necessary.
I'd like to think it's true... all the people that have inspired me have been very active in the competition scene, but I don't know how common that is.Is it because the more inspiring dancers all enter competitions, or is it because one doesn't hear much about potentially inspiring dancers who don't enter competitions?

ChrisA
11th-October-2005, 10:47 PM
After a few weeks of practice with a single partner, I was told the same thing. But I wasn't practicing for competition, just for the fun of it. So the competition element isn't always necessary.

Agreed. Not sure I'd have a reason to practise with someone specific, though, unless it was aiming at something specific.


Is it because the more inspiring dancers all enter competitions, or is it because one doesn't hear much about potentially inspiring dancers who don't enter competitions?
I dance with lots of people that don't enter competitions as well as those that do... offhand I can think of a few of my favourites that don't compete. But most of them either do or have.

Totally subjective, I know.

foxylady
12th-October-2005, 12:05 AM
I dance with lots of people that don't enter competitions as well as those that do... offhand I can think of a few of my favourites that don't compete. But most of them either do or have.



I'd enter a competition but nobody would have me :tears:

But seriously folks..... I've noticed huge improvements in men who have been training for a competition, started demo-ing regularly, etc etc.. I've also noticed a drop sometimes before an improvement.. caused by ??? dancing with only the one person, or ????

and MJ has evolved considerably in the 17 years or so that I've been dancing, and to be honest in the early days when I did Lindy (and embryonic blues), Ceroc/MJ was looked down on from considerably greater heights than it is today !

Keith
12th-October-2005, 12:51 AM
[QUOTE=foxylady]
But seriously folks..... I've noticed huge improvements in men who have been training for a competition, started demo-ing regularly, etc etc.. I've also noticed a drop sometimes before an improvement.. caused by ??? dancing with only the one person, or ????

Drops prior to improvement, initially are due to learning new things, whether it be a corrected follow or lead, new moves, trying to practice musical interpretation.
No matter what we do in life we always falter before we improve, otherwise we haven't really learnt anything new. Don't you just hate learning curves?
:(

Blues Dancer
12th-October-2005, 01:18 AM
One way is to look at videos from the past. I think there's a fairly clear progression - I'd be surprised if the 1999 Ceroc advanced champions could reach the intermediate finals today.
That is, of course, supposing that they also hadn't improved in the meantime
:yum:

(I'm deliberately missing the point here! :whistle: )

Who were the 1999 Ceroc Advanced champions anyhow?

bigdjiver
12th-October-2005, 05:17 AM
I'm sure the competition standard has increased, I'm not disputing that.

What I'm not sure about is whether this has translated in any way to better standards of dancing in an average MJ night.A beginner is still a beginner. If their standards improve it can be due to various factors.
1) The worst have self-selected themselves out. "They're all so good. It's not for me." This may well happen if Ceroc appears on TV more. TV will naturally pick out the sensational. Frankie Manning the other week was saying that he used to dance a lot of slow stuff, but they didn't show that in the pictures.

2) The standard of teaching has so improved that the average newbie progresses much faster. I do not believe this is possible.

I think competition raises the ceiling. I do not want it to raise the floor. MJ has a very high return rate. This is both the sign of an excellent product, and also sign of poor marketing. IMO The both standard of newbies and the retention rate should be lower, showing that Ceroc is reaching a wider potential membership. If this happened Ceroc would be a lot more profitable, and its growth rate much higher. Any trend in this direction would mean that there would be even more chance of a fracturing, with the top dancers doing different variations.


That pushes the standards of the competitors higher, sure. But does that translate to a trickle-down to everyone else, or does that widen the difference between competitive dancing and club dancing?:yeah: It is having an effect, and a lot more than a trickle. The higher standards are apparent at the increasing number of freestyle events and weekenders. A newbie is still a newbie, and a beginners dance class is still a beginners dance class. The standards should not change, the faces should.

doc martin
12th-October-2005, 12:07 PM
Yeah ... its called evolution.
I think this is an interesting idea, particularly if you consider the ideas of punctuated equilibrium, one of the major areas in current evolutionary theory. In this way of looking at evolution, there are long periods of environmental stability in which not a lot seems to be happening from an evolutionary perspective, punctuated by short (in geological terms) periods where the environment has undergone a rapid change and those fittest to survive in the new environment leave progeny to pass into the next environmentally stable period. I say that not a lot seems to be happening in the environmentally stable period, but during this time the diversity of the genetic pool within the species increases without new species being formed. This increase in diversity is the material which provides the options needed to survive when the conditions change.

"OK, (I can hear you saying) that sounds very nice, but what is it doing on an MJ forum?". Bear with me a little longer :imploring:

Memes are social concepts passed around in human culture and MJ could be considered to be a meme. One idea is that these memes evolve in the same sort of way as genes. At the moment MJ, as a meme, is in an environmentally stable period. The resources (available dancers?) are sufficient to support more classes/socials than are available. So the meme is not changing, but it's diversity is increasing, incorporating elements of other styles and opening different avenues, such as competition, dor expression of the meme.

When the environment changes this diversity will be important for the survival of MJ, although it may not be the aspects that we want (or expect) that will survive. What I am thinking about in terms of environmental change is a major decrease in the number of available dancers (a new fad sweeps through or we all evolve to be able to drive only without walking {like daleks:wink: }), or a major economic downturn, when people no longer have the resources to support such leisure activities.

Then some aspects of dancing and some aspects of MJ will go to the wall, and people who are still dancing afterwards will look back and say "Wasn't it lucky that MJ had changed in this way before the crunch came or we would have no aspect of MJ to enjoy now." And "Isn't it a shame all those lovely ballroom dances died out? They were so pretty, but just too inflexible to survive."

So is there a point to all this? To me it is that we should each enjoy all the different aspects of MJ that appeal to us. We should follow every fad that takes our fancy, no matter how trivial the reason it catches our eye, and we should encourage new aspects to develop in surprising ways. And that, to my mind, is where Franck's new Sunday nights come in. (Are you amazed that I finally managed to get 'on topic'?:whistle: ). Franck is supplying the fodder for evolution and, ultimately, for the survival of MJ. So you had better all turn up on that first Sunday or you might be out-evolved by WCSers!

bigdjiver
12th-October-2005, 02:06 PM
... or a major economic downturn, when people no longer have the resources to support such leisure activities...The Ceroc organisation may suffer in a depression, but all we need to MJ is a reasonably flat surface and some music. The swing era occured in the depression years, and was led by the poorest section of the community.

doc martin
12th-October-2005, 03:36 PM
The Ceroc organisation may suffer in a depression, but all we need to MJ is a reasonably flat surface and some music. The swing era occured in the depression years, and was led by the poorest section of the community.
Good points. Did all types of dance survive the depression? Or only those that had a wide user base and were able to adapt (or be adapted) to provide what people wanted in an environment where money was short?

I don't know much about the history of popular dance, but dances such as the Charleston were, I believe, hugely popular before the depression. They still existed afterwards, but never really regained a large dancer base. In evolutionary terms they could be said to have failed as they left no progeny. Swing dancing however succeeded because it left behind dance styles which evolved to fit different niches (post-war France for instance), before again exploding in diversity when conditions were suitable from the 1980s on.

True the Ceroc organisation would suffer in any sort of downswing (pun intended), but, in the meantime, by encouraging it's teachers to assimilate elements of other styles and allowing people to try different modes of dancing from class/social under it's umbrella, it is maximising it's own chances of surviving in a colder economic climate. Woolly mammoths were very big.

The one other element besides a flat floor and some music that is required is some people to do the dancing. The more people that are doing MJ now, the better the chances of enough of them wanting to continue to make it (or something related to it) viable. And to maximise the number of people you have to keep them coming back.

For myself, I am likely to continue to be a member of the MJ community as long as I can see interesting ways to develop. And at the moment Franck's new class is one of the things that is making me excited about staying part of this community.

MartinHarper
12th-October-2005, 03:59 PM
Dances such as the Charleston were, I believe, hugely popular before the depression. They still existed afterwards, but never really regained a large dancer base. In evolutionary terms they could be said to have failed as they left no progeny.

Lindy Hop owes a fair chunk to 30s Charleston, by all accounts.

doc martin
12th-October-2005, 04:12 PM
Lindy Hop owes a fair chunk to 30s Charleston, by all accounts.
OK, I told you I didn't know much:blush: . It just shows you can only go so far by making things up.
Eventually you have to have some knowledge :tears: