What's most important in different styles of dancing?

[LMC]

I been thinking about this question since Southport, when I tried WCS and Waltz and had my first salsa lesson for months and months.

Only reason I haven't posted before was because I'm not really sure how to phrase the question, but that might make the discussion more interesting, so what the hell :D

It seemed to me that more awareness of? a more rigid? frame (not sure of the words I'm looking for here) is far more important for basic WCS / Waltz than basic MJ. And suppleness is more vital for salsa beginners than MJ beginners? And tango beginners need more of a lack of 'personal space' inhibitions... etc. etc.

I could be totally wrong on that, and in my ignorance haven't really got much further - but I would be fascinated to know what facets of style/technique more expert people believe to be an overriding 'need' in different styles of dances - or even IF there is "one technique" in any style that is a priority to acquire over other techniques (e.g. I know frame is needed for any dance style - is it in fact more important in some styles than others?)

[David Bailey]

Ooh - good question :clap:

I'll answer it from my own "coming mainly from MJ" perspective.

In salsa, I'd say it's rhythm - the most difficult thing for someone from an MJ background (e.g. me) wasn't really the moves, but moving to the music. I shudder to think how long it took me to stop counting to the beat under my breath - let's just say it was more than "months". If I had to pick a second factor, it's be that elusive "style" thing.

With my vast knowledge of Argentinian Tango, it seems to be all about the "connection" - leading is totally different to MJ leading, and a good frame-connection whatsit seems to be vital. Oh, and the second thing would be the walking, always walking...

[LMC]

I've been following this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6573&page=2) with interest as well, because it's gone slightly OT and the discussion of what different dance styles can offer to MJ seems to vaguely relate to my question (post 27 onwards)... - although my question is more focussed towards what techniques different dance styles need...

spooky coincidence though

[Gadget]

Most important? From (very) limited experiance, I would say that there are three things: Timing, Balance{self-awareness} and Lead (/follow). I don't think that it's very easy to seperate them; without one, the others are less.

In Salsa, I learned about my own spacial awareness and the positioning of my partner, as well as some timeing. "Lead" was not really taught - it was expressed that you had to dace with someone for a long time before you just 'knew' their moves. Personally, I think this may have been a teacher thing rather than a Salsa thing.

In Arg. Tango I learned about leading from every point of contact with the lady. I learned to transfer weight fully rather than maintaining a more 'stable' distribution.

In Ceroc I learned how to lead and where to lead.

Of course, learning "how" does not enable you to actually do it: I know the theorys and can get some of it right most of the time, or most of it right some of the time. :rolleyes:

[Anna]

Something feeling important is capturing the mood of the dance..

for example, when I first started learning latin&ballroom I was going to the classes with a friend and we were always joking around doing the head tilt to the left even as we fumbled around the floor with our basic waltz steps.. believe it or not, hamming it up and pretending to be professionals actually made it easier to dance.

When I dance WCS, I try to think of being really smooth (*channelling robert cordoba and reborah unpronounceablelastname) and really strut up and down the 'slot'... and it makes it easier.. when I dance Salsa its all about being flirty, sexy and exuberant but smooth at the same time.. Ballroom is very proper and upright.. Tango is sensual, when the only person in the whole room is your dance partner and the world exists inside their eyes..

Knowing the different "feels" or "attitudes" of different dances makes it a lot simpler to switch from one to the other :)

[jockey]

Hi LMC,
Look for the answer in the music itself.
I twigged this when doing a bit of WCS..I have a big collection of blues and R n B records and some of my favourite artists are the likes of John Lee Hooker, Jimmy Reed, Lightning Hopkins (whom I have seen perform) etc etc. Prior to finding MJ I used to go to the Catfish Club in Brighton and dance to this stuff plus Tamla Motown. Now these artists have a lazy, sexy, swinging, walking kinda style - with breaks, accents, the lot (the kind of thing you die for in freestyle) - and when I came across WCS it all made sense, viz., this was the music that gave rise to the dance, i.e., the music caused the dance.
The U.S. couple who taught WCS at Southport knew because the music they brought with them which he played as DJ for a few sessions really suited the dance (unlike the DJs over here who really havent grasped the musical roots of the dance they have recently converted to).
I have heard these "converts" telling others that "you can do WCS to all sorts of music"...well you can drink a glass of wine in one - but that is missing the point, as they do.
So, LMC, my view is that whats most important in different styles of dancing is the dances musical roots.
I should add that I have no background in musicology and have no data as proof but I do thing im on to something..maybe.:yeah:

[LMC]

I would be fascinated to know what facets of style/technique more expert people believe to be an overriding 'need' in different styles of dances - or even IF there is "one technique" in any style that is a priority to acquire over other techniques (e.g. I know frame is needed for any dance style - is it in fact more important in some styles than others?)
Shamelessly bumping my own thread, because I REALLY WANT TO KNOW. Answers so far are interesting, relevant and useful, but I still feel like there's something "missing" for me...

I've been following the recent discussions on connection/AT with great interest and wonder what other styles bring to MJ/"your dancing ability" in general.

[Lynn]

Interesting, I don't really have an answer - other than for me, the music is a key thing, my style seems to unconsciously change depending on the music (eg salsa music - I wiggle my hips more, this may or may not be a good thing!) But I have been 'sampling' different dances over the past 6 months and have noticed that certain styles appeal to me more than others. I've yet to precisely pin down why that is.

[dancefiend]

I guess the most important thing in learning a new dance is to feed of the similarities of an exisiting dance you know. That way the learning curve is so much steeper than saying that its totally new.

For example transitioning ceroc into salsa - sure the foot work is different but not that different if I define it as the mirror image with a pause on 4th and 8th. I mean in ceroc there are random times we pause anyway in a song. Here it is just done at regular intervals.

The next thing is to get around the partner ceroc is mostly done on the right side of the girl whereas salsa is done on the left but in both style - there are situations where you get around from the otherside.

Tension wise - salsa has less elasticity and chases down the partner more often. In ceroc - more elasticity but there are situations such as the manhatten where you chase down the partner. But in salsa there is the open break which creates distance from the partner - similar in concept to guy & girl stepping back in ceroc.

Really, what I can say is that certain movements are emphaised in one dance and less in another. Therefore by learning both, its possible to integrate the two.

Don't know enough about argentine tango to compare. But syles like caporera is totally different - can't say what i can feed off from that style. Maybe better stamina perhaps?????

[stewart38]

Ooh - good question :clap:

I'll answer it from my own "coming mainly from MJ" perspective.

In salsa, I'd say it's rhythm - the most difficult thing for someone from an MJ background (e.g. me) wasn't really the moves, but moving to the music. I shudder to think how long it took me to stop counting to the beat under my breath - let's just say it was more than "months". If I had to pick a second factor, it's be that elusive "style" thing.

.

Just picked up on this

Very interesting

After jiving 11yrs i tried some Salsa but just couldnt get the 'beat' and i think i usually can pick up the beat

I gave up after about 6 weeks :sad:

[LMC]

Thanks DF - my salsa is incompetent, but a good lead has generally seemed to have less "spring"

Manhattans - if it's the chasing down the partner bit which makes them so :drool: then perhaps I should make the effort to get back to regular salsa classes...

[dancefiend]

Thanks DF - my salsa is incompetent, but a good lead has generally seemed to have less "spring"

Manhattans - if it's the chasing down the partner bit which makes them so :drool: then perhaps I should make the effort to get back to regular salsa classes...

I take it you've danced ceroc more than salsa. If so and from experience, I would think of salsa as a jig saw.... i.e unless you have enough pieces in place you peobably won't see the picture. So the first few months its probably not as enjoyable in free style compared to ceroc - but the learning curve acclerates very quickly after a few more months - especially when you start cross pollinating between the styles - its a lot of fun. For me - both styles ended up evolving.

[dancefiend]

Just picked up on this

Very interesting

After jiving 11yrs i tried some Salsa but just couldnt get the 'beat' and i think i usually can pick up the beat

I gave up after about 6 weeks :sad:

There're many "layers" in salsa music. If its a live band and they start palying around with their instruments and they change the speed then sometimes I go mmmmmmm what are they doing.

theoretically you can do ceroc to salsa muic - in practice it works only at a certain speed. I can recall one incident when I was dancing with a partner who does both styles and the band changed the speed of the song. We danced ceroc when they played it slow and then we shifted it to bing salsa when the speed picked up. that was a lot of fun!

[LMC]

(( salsa experience ))
I might have got to "improver" status - did salsa before ceroc - but definitely back to beginner now - lack of practice and more awareness of partner dancing "techniques" generally. MJ frame definitely transferred to the couple of salsa lesson I've done - but it has only been a couple over the last few months.

Thanks for that, very useful.

Anyone who can comment further and on other dance styles - pleeeeaze :flower:

[Gadget]

...But syles like caporera is totally different - can't say what i can feed off from that style. Maybe better stamina perhaps?????
Isn't caporera more a solo dance? From my understanding, it's based on conflict rather than cooperation between partners.
As to what it can add: balance, some amazing, stylish movements and shapes... if only I were supple and flexable with enough time to study it. :sigh: Personally, I think it's one of the coolest forms of movement (dance or MA) that can be found :waycool:

[dancefiend]

Isn't caporera more a solo dance? From my understanding, it's based on conflict rather than cooperation between partners.
As to what it can add: balance, some amazing, stylish movements and shapes... if only I were supple and flexable with enough time to study it. :sigh: Personally, I think it's one of the coolest forms of movement (dance or MA) that can be found :waycool:

It's partner dancing because you're responding to what your partner is doing. But I see your point as being a solo dance because you're not in contact with the partner all the time.

It is co-operation because in the end it is a "play", if someone is doing a cart wheel or hand stand its not like you kick them down or something like that. But what you can do is nudge them with a head butt on their mid section to disrupt their balance. But the empahsis is on cooperation such that they can do somnething like a backward roll and not fall flat on their back.

But yes you can play a bit more rough if you see an opening and go in to disrupt their balance. so you can say it is a kind of conflict. But really it's not that rough - more like a play act than actual martial arts.

As a rule, kicks are done high so you go down low to avoid the kicks or time it such that you do a cart wheel etc etc.

Yeah it's good fun - I enjoy it when I get a chance to do it.

[Caro]

From my (limited) experience, I think the 'mood' thing is really important.
When I go to ceroc, I'm in some sort of neutral mood, because of the vast variety of music you can dance to, and I'll adapt the 'mood' to the song I'm dancing to, and the style to my partner. I think it's fairly easy to get to the intermediate level in ceroc, no real footwork all you have to do is follow really... Getting the musicality right then and adding style gets more complicated if you're not a 'natural'!

When it's AT, it's totally different, the 'mood' is all about some sort of unexpressed (by contrast with salsa where you do express it) sexual tension between you and your partner... I'm not sure the words are right here, hope you understand what I mean! It's like you are physically so close to you partner that it would be kind of inappropriate to start flirting?! It's some sort of 'classy sexy'!
Hence you need to accept that intrusion into your space, which is not easy at all at first (and even later on, depending on the connection with your partner) and think put a lot of people off.
THE other thing you need to master as a follower in AT is responding to the weight transfer your partner is leading, and no more and no less! any step you do on your own and you break the connection... whereas it's not really important in ceroc, you can always make up for it!

In salsa, on the contrary, it's all about flirting and being sexy and expressing it... moving hips & shoulders, combs and stuff...
What I thought was the most difficult in salsa was to understand the rythm... you can't really dance unless you've got it (on the contrary to tango may be?), and personnaly it took me months and months (on and off because I kept giving up cause I wasn't having fun!)... but I do remember THAT day when I somehow suddenly 'got it', I couldn't stop myself and had the best evenening of dancing ever! And then I was able to start thinking about style, shoulders and the rest of it!

anyway... those were my thoughts on the subject! interesting topic :clap:

[David Bailey]

When it's AT, it's totally different, the 'mood' is all about some sort of unexpressed (by contrast with salsa where you do express it) sexual tension between you and your partner... I'm not sure the words are right here, hope you understand what I mean! It's like you are physically so close to you partner that it would be kind of inappropriate to start flirting?! It's some sort of 'classy sexy'!
I'm not even sure if AT is "sexy" per se (although I know it certainly isn't when I do it), more that it's intense - there's such a connection, or should be, between partner and follower, it's such a deep and intimate level of continuous body-communication, that it can provoke that sort of emotional response.

At least, that's what I hope - I'll come back to you in 2 years when I can actually dance it.

Absolutely :yeah: to all your other points.

[Caro]

I'm not even sure if AT is "sexy" per se (although I know it certainly isn't when I do it), more that it's intense - there's such a connection, or should be, between partner and follower, it's such a deep and intimate level of continuous body-communication, that it can provoke that sort of emotional response.

:yeah: totally agree, intense is the right word

[dancefiend]

From my (limited) experience, I think the 'mood' thing is really important.
When I go to ceroc, I'm in some sort of neutral mood, because of the vast variety of music you can dance to, and I'll adapt the 'mood' to the song I'm dancing to, and the style to my partner. I think it's fairly easy to get to the intermediate level in ceroc, no real footwork all you have to do is follow really... Getting the musicality right then and adding style gets more complicated if you're not a 'natural'!

When it's AT, it's totally different, the 'mood' is all about some sort of unexpressed (by contrast with salsa where you do express it) sexual tension between you and your partner... I'm not sure the words are right here, hope you understand what I mean! It's like you are physically so close to you partner that it would be kind of inappropriate to start flirting?! It's some sort of 'classy sexy'!
Hence you need to accept that intrusion into your space, which is not easy at all at first (and even later on, depending on the connection with your partner) and think put a lot of people off.
THE other thing you need to master as a follower in AT is responding to the weight transfer your partner is leading, and no more and no less! any step you do on your own and you break the connection... whereas it's not really important in ceroc, you can always make up for it!

In salsa, on the contrary, it's all about flirting and being sexy and expressing it... moving hips & shoulders, combs and stuff...
What I thought was the most difficult in salsa was to understand the rythm... you can't really dance unless you've got it (on the contrary to tango may be?), and personnaly it took me months and months (on and off because I kept giving up cause I wasn't having fun!)... but I do remember THAT day when I somehow suddenly 'got it', I couldn't stop myself and had the best evenening of dancing ever! And then I was able to start thinking about style, shoulders and the rest of it!

anyway... those were my thoughts on the subject! interesting topic :clap:

I tend to think that the styling described in salsa is a matter of technique and its possible to transpose that into ceroc. Tango can be a lot closer than salsa depends on which branch of salsa your're talking about.

When I do tango, I just accept the fact that my partner is alot closer or in salsa i might shake my hips more. But it doesn't mean I feel any different to ceroc. I guess what I'm saying is that the artistic expression that we see in the different dance styles is a by product of technique rather than the mood of the dancers.