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View Full Version : Focus on technique & Blues Freestyle! New Sunday nights in Stirling!



Franck
4th-October-2005, 05:06 PM
Since I was missing my Perth Technical classes, I decided to create a new night and take the concept further!

Starting on the 30th October, every Sunday night in Stirling (King Robert Hotel, Glasgow Road) I will be running an hour 'Focus on...' Workshop.
The idea will be to focus on one technical point (i.e. connection / frame / footwork / balance / spinning / etc...) or style / musicality for a full hour every week. You won't need to attend every week, but you'll need to be on time 7pm as, once we're started, doors will be closed until 8.15 for the Freestyle.

Following that workshop, we'll have an extra long Sunday Smooth Grooves Freestyle until 11.30pm.
DJ Tiggerbabe will provide the vibe and tunes for the night.

Workshop will be £6.00
Smooth Freestyle: £6.00

Anyone attending the workshop can do both for £10.00.

Tiggerbabe
4th-October-2005, 05:23 PM
Starting on the 30th October, every Sunday night in Stirling (King Robert Hotel, Glasgow Road) I will be running an hour 'Focus on...' Workshop.
:clap: :clap:


Following that workshop, we'll have an extra long Sunday Smooth Grooves Freestyle until 11.30pm.
DJ Tiggerbabe will provide the vibe and tunes for the night.
Looking forward to it already - dancing on a Sunday - whoo hoo!!! At last!

angelique
4th-October-2005, 05:26 PM
:yeah:
Now this sounds FAB!!
How long will it take me to drive up there from the Midlands and will you be serving powerful coffee for those of us who have driven that far? :wink:

All the best with this new venture guys......it'll be a blast! :kiss: :hug:

ducasi
4th-October-2005, 05:27 PM
Sounds like fun... When do the workshops that we must be late for start? :wink:

(I'm guessing 7pm?)

Might make the first one on my way back from Pitlochry... :whistle:

Tiggerbabe
4th-October-2005, 05:29 PM
(I'm guessing 7pm?)
Good guess :wink:

Blues Dancer
4th-October-2005, 05:30 PM
Aha. The Hipsters of the North...

"Non-normal" (note, careful non-use of the word "Advanced") class, with no beginner classes, and freestyle until 11:30. Sounds familiar!!

(Although, Ceroc Scotland do run plenty of other classes for beginners, of course) :flower:

Tiggerbabe
4th-October-2005, 05:31 PM
will you be serving powerful coffee for those of us who have driven that far? :wink:
Definitely, or Red Bull, or champagne maybe? :wink:

Gus
4th-October-2005, 05:34 PM
Aha. The Hipsters of the North...What?? Ceroc(tm) following the path blazed by others??? Surely not! :whistle: :rolleyes:

Ribbing aside, nice one. Shame more franchisees dont have the teaching crew and DJs to provide a similar offering ... or do they? Will this concept spread?

ducasi
4th-October-2005, 06:05 PM
Sounds like fun... When do the workshops that we must be late for start? :wink: I meant mustn't, honest! :innocent:

Good guess :wink: Cool! :waycool:

I'm a little concerned it's on a school night, and I (along with any others from afar) will have to get home... I'd favour an afternoon workshop, followed by a Tea Dance...

I will try to get up to Stirling as often as possible though... :nice:

angelique
4th-October-2005, 06:35 PM
Definitely, or Red Bull, or champagne maybe? :wink:


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOW your talking my language! Show me the ice bucket hun and pass me an empty glass! :D

azande
4th-October-2005, 06:42 PM
Blues night!! :drool:

Tiggerbabe
4th-October-2005, 08:19 PM
Blues night!! :drool:
:D :hug:

Gadget
5th-October-2005, 12:08 AM
Since I was missing my Perth Technical classes, I decided to create a new night and take the concept further!
:clap: yea! brilliant.

{but ya-boo-sucks because as much as I love the idea and would really like to attend every one, I can neither afford the time, money or traveling :tears:}

Franck
5th-October-2005, 01:08 AM
Aha. The Hipsters of the North...

"Non-normal" (note, careful non-use of the word "Advanced") class, with no beginner classes, and freestyle until 11:30. Sounds familiar!!

(Although, Ceroc Scotland do run plenty of other classes for beginners, of course) :flower:Well not quite. As one of the people who predicted Hipsters wouldn't last a couple of years back :wink: I'm not likely to try and replicate the format up here...

The idea for the new Sunday nights is to teach fundamentals of dancing, nothing advanced, no big flashy moves, and no Tango / West Coast Swing / Lindy, or whatever the latest fad is!

Instead, we'll spend time learning useful techniques useful to make everyone's dancing better.

The reason why 'Advanced' is not mentioned is because the classes are not aimed at 'advanced' dancers. Any competent intermediate, or indeed willing beginner is welcome and will benefit from the classes and I really hope they take the opportunity.

As far as the Freestyle is concerned, the remit is to have a bluesier / slower, more interpretative evening to suit a Sunday night mood... Again, nothing to do with dancing ability, just musical taste and a more chilled feel. Knowing Tiggerbabe, the set will no doubt include some cool blues, Latin tracks, R&B and a few 'Dude' tracks with attitude! :D :waycool:

As I mentioned, a year or two ago, I used to run technical classes parallel to the Beginners class in Perth, and felt we were really getting somewhere, taking the 'back to basics' approach and really improving people's dancing and connection! This is me opening a night again, specifically to re-create that class.

johnthehappyguy
5th-October-2005, 01:12 AM
This sounds a great idea and I look forward to coming along.

Best of luck with the venture.

johnthehappyguy :nice:

LMC
5th-October-2005, 09:44 AM
I have always loved Scotland - holidays etc - and this settles it: my next relocation is up there :grin:

Hope it goes really well, wish there was something similar down 'ere

Mostlysane
5th-October-2005, 10:29 AM
Franck,
That sounds like a great idea. You don't fancy starting something similar down way down here do you. It would be so nice to have a class where you got something a bit different. And dancing on a sunday? unheard of. If there was dancing on a sunday, i'd be able to go every day of the week. :D

I really hope it works out.

Lindsay
5th-October-2005, 11:47 PM
The idea for the new Sunday nights is to teach fundamentals of dancing, nothing advanced, no big flashy moves, and no Tango / West Coast Swing / Lindy, or whatever the latest fad is!.

fads? :rolleyes:
lindy - that's one long fad - >50years
wcs - 30 yrs?
tango - no idea but hardly a fad!

David Bailey
6th-October-2005, 08:35 AM
fads? :rolleyes:
lindy - that's one long fad - >50years
wcs - 30 yrs?
tango - no idea but hardly a fad!
I think Franck was talking about fads in the context of the MJ dance scene, which seem to last a year or two, rather than general dancing fads.

Brady
6th-October-2005, 01:27 PM
I think Franck was talking about fads in the context of the MJ dance scene, which seem to last a year or two, rather than general dancing fads.

If that was the case, then why the mention of Lindy, WCS, Tango? When has lindy or WCS ever been a fad in the MJ scene?

Icey
6th-October-2005, 01:35 PM
Hope it goes really well, wish there was something similar down 'ere
:yeah: Wasn't Gus murmuring something about a back to basics sunday afternoon thingie down here in the south?

Franck
6th-October-2005, 01:36 PM
If that was the case, then why the mention of Lindy, WCS, Tango? When has lindy or WCS ever been a fad in the MJ scene?
Before your time probably Brady, Lindy used to be the 'recommended' style for MJ / Ceroc dancers about 10 years ago, lots of kicks, bum sticking out, etc...
I would say that WCS (and Tango) are currently trendy / fashionable styles to pick-up and add to your MJ, like hip hop was 3 or 4 years ago, and no doubt they will be replaced by the latest fad in a year or two...

As David James said, I don't think any of the dances I quoted are fads, but they do come and go within the MJ scene depending on what music people like to listen / dance to and what the Ten have decreed.

David Bailey
6th-October-2005, 02:58 PM
As David James said, I don't think any of the dances I quoted are fads, but they do come and go within the MJ scene depending on what music people like to listen / dance to and what the Ten have decreed.
What, there's a Scots Ten as well? :eek:

Tiggerbabe
6th-October-2005, 03:02 PM
What, there's a Scots Ten as well? :eek:
Wheesht! :wink:

El Salsero Gringo
6th-October-2005, 03:03 PM
Before your time probably Brady, Lindy used to be the 'recommended' style for MJ / Ceroc dancers about 10 years ago, lots of kicks, bum sticking out, etc...Shame on Modern Jive then for not having the balls to find its own style, or stick to it, then.
I would say that WCS (and Tango) are currently trendy / fashionable styles to pick-up and add to your MJ, like hip hop was 3 or 4 years ago, and no doubt they will be replaced by the latest fad in a year or two...Ouch.

Anyone who wants to show me how to just "pick-up and add" WCS style to my MJ, please go right ahead. I haven't a clue, and none of the WCS lessons to which I've been recently are any help with that.

Franck
6th-October-2005, 03:11 PM
What, there's a Scots Ten as well? :eek:
What do you mean 'as well?'

There is only The Scottish Ten

Franck
6th-October-2005, 03:16 PM
Shame on Modern Jive then for not having the balls to find its own style, or stick to it, then.No shame, but real pride at being able to absorb different styles / moves and musical genres... See the Ceroc Mongrel thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1007) for why it's a good thing :wink:

Ouch.

Anyone who wants to show me how to just "pick-up and add" WCS style to my MJ, please go right ahead. I haven't a clue, and none of the WCS lessons to which I've been recently are any help with that.Well, if you want to learn how to add WCS style to your MJ, don't go to a WCS class, as most teachers I have seen (with the exception of DavidB), struggle to teach WCS musicality techniques and style if you haven't absorbed years of sugar pushes and triple steps.
Some Ceroc / MJ teachers can certainly translate some WCS techniques to adapt your MJ dancing to fit.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-October-2005, 03:28 PM
Some Ceroc / MJ teachers can certainly translate some WCS techniques to adapt your MJ dancing to fit.To be honest, I think one is better off learning the real thing, and adapting as one sees fit oneself.

Otherwise it's just succumbing to a fad...

David Bailey
6th-October-2005, 04:14 PM
To be honest, I think one is better off learning the real thing, and adapting as one sees fit oneself.

Otherwise it's just succumbing to a fad...
What, like Jango, you mean? :whistle:

LMC
6th-October-2005, 04:16 PM
What, like Jango, you mean? :whistle:
HERETIC!!!

:rofl:

*donates asbestos suit to DJ*

Franck
6th-October-2005, 04:24 PM
To be honest, I think one is better off learning the real thing, and adapting as one sees fit oneself.

Otherwise it's just succumbing to a fad...Definitely! :wink: Learning the real thing is brilliant, and to be encouraged for anyone that has the time and energy. There's nothing wrong with fads though, they keep MJ interesting and force all of us (dancers and teachers) to question and re-invent our own style.

As I mentioned, the Sunday 'Focus on...' workshops will not be following any particular fad, though some of the techniques and style points I'll teach have come from my own following of the many fads I witnessed over the last 15 years!

David Bailey
6th-October-2005, 04:33 PM
*donates asbestos suit to DJ*
Thanks.

*runs away, puts on asbestos suit, plus false moustache and wig - that'll fool 'em*

Brady
6th-October-2005, 06:07 PM
Before your time probably Brady, Lindy used to be the 'recommended' style for MJ / Ceroc dancers about 10 years ago, lots of kicks, bum sticking out, etc....

This is where much of the misinterpretation comes in. How can you actually say that by doing lots of kicks and sticking out your bum that it is Lindy??? This could just as well be Rock & Roll without all the aerials. And what about smooth style Lindy or Smooth Savoy Style Lindy; these don't fit that description.


Well, if you want to learn how to add WCS style to your MJ, don't go to a WCS class, as most teachers I have seen (with the exception of DavidB), struggle to teach WCS musicality techniques and style if you haven't absorbed years of sugar pushes and triple steps.
Some Ceroc / MJ teachers can certainly translate some WCS techniques to adapt your MJ dancing to fit.

Which WCS classes have you been to??? All the ones I've been to (both in the UK and US) teach musicality techniques and style to some level in every class; how much is taught always varies depending on the level of the class. WCS is not WCS without this! I will be impressed when I find a Ceroc/MJ teacher who can teach WCS techniques better than a trained WCS teacher!!! Does the typical MJ teacher even know what Critical Timing is; the key element to musical interpretation in WCS????? Please keep us informed as to which Sunday you will be covering WCS technique and I'll be there!

Brady

Gus
6th-October-2005, 06:18 PM
:yeah: Wasn't Gus murmuring something about a back to basics sunday afternoon thingie down here in the south?Aye ... just got to get my sorry butt into gear and get the venue sorted. May even resurrect Cool Catz ... wouldn't that be a thing :wink:

Back to Thread ... would like to see what Franck is planning to do ... in all honesty I havent yet seen a Ceroc verison of what Cool Catz / Hipsters / Jango achieved, though I know that young James (Jive Brummie) did do some failry innovative tsuff (wished I lived a bit closer to catch some of it :( )

Lindsay
6th-October-2005, 08:17 PM
I would say that WCS (and Tango) are currently trendy / fashionable styles to pick-up and add to your MJ, like hip hop was 3 or 4 years ago, and no doubt they will be replaced by the latest fad in a year or two...

Some dancers have the flexibility to dance many different styles. Rather than "adding WCS to MJ" there may be styling elements that ceroc introduces, that can indeed be phasic. Having spent a fortune over the years on Lindy & WCS training, and as a dancer of Lindy & WCS, the style is pure and (on the whole) unadulterated by other styles. Lindy & WCS seem very far removed from the "trendy fads within modern jive". For example, take the 'Ceroc charleston kicks.....'

Lorna
6th-October-2005, 08:29 PM
will be impressed when I find a Ceroc/MJ teacher who can teach WCS techniques better than a trained WCS teacher!!! Does the typical MJ teacher even know what Critical Timing is; the key element to musical interpretation in WCS????? Please keep us informed as to which Sunday you will be covering WCS technique and I'll be there!Oooh, I do. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Damn!!! Does this mean that I no longer belong in the 'typical' ceroc teacher category. :devil: :angry:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Aleks
6th-October-2005, 08:30 PM
Erm......'fads'.....

If one is solely a Ceroc/MJ dancer, the popularity of certain styles nicked from other dance types, with hindsight, could be perceived as fads....it doesn't take away from the nature of the dance it's been nicked from - more like a nod of respect in that direction.

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 09:16 AM
There is only The Scottish TenDon't you mean - "There can only be ten!". And I even know who one of them is...

"I'm DJ CJ of the clan CJ. My playlist was born in 1518, and it is immortal!"

Well, if you want to learn how to add WCS style to your MJ, don't go to a WCS class, as most teachers I have seen (with the exception of DavidB), struggle to teach WCS musicality techniques and style if you haven't absorbed years of sugar pushes and triple steps. Not sure what you're trying to say here. It seems a bit unfair to expect to learn any kind of WCS technique without actually needing to learn WCS. On the other hand, most musicality isn't inherently linked to a particular dance style; the problem is whoever teaches it tends to use their own dance style as the framework. But that doesn't have to be the case - Robert Royston taught an hour musicality class where we just "stepped" in different ways, and it was the best musicality class I've ever done.


Some Ceroc / MJ teachers can certainly translate some WCS techniques to adapt your MJ dancing to fit.The thing is, in doing the translation, you lose some of what makes it WCS (otherwise it still would be WCS!). The question is whether you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Of course it's subjective, but for my taste, Ceroc tends to lose too much "essence" during such translations, leaving only a pale imitation.

Of course, it depends on how familiar you are with the original form (and, I guess, how much you care). We went to a salsa stage show where they encouraged people to dance after the end; several people came up and asked if we were part of the show. :clap: I also went to a salsa class, and everyone was saying "you're from Ceroc, aren't you?" :tears:

Franck
7th-October-2005, 09:52 AM
Back to Thread ... would like to see what Franck is planning to do ... in all honesty I havent yet seen a Ceroc verison of what Cool Catz / Hipsters / Jango achieved, though I know that young James (Jive Brummie) did do some failry innovative tsuff (wished I lived a bit closer to catch some of it :( )Happy to oblige, some of the points I intend to cover are already listed on the BFG workshop timetable (http://cerocscotland.com/BFG.htm) but I'll try to keep you all informed of the timetable / programme.

This is where much of the misinterpretation comes in. How can you actually say that by doing lots of kicks and sticking out your bum that it is Lindy??? This could just as well be Rock & Roll without all the aerials. And what about smooth style Lindy or Smooth Savoy Style Lindy; these don't fit that description.Well, those were two visual examples, some of the 'borrowed' features were more subtle and some indeed came from Savoy as well.
Ultimately, all I'm saying is that while there are fashions that come and go in Ceroc / MJ, I was more interested in teaching the strong foundations, which not only will improve everyone's dancing, but will also help dancers pick-up the latest trend should they want to.

Which WCS classes have you been to??? All the ones I've been to (both in the UK and US) teach musicality techniques and style to some level in every class; how much is taught always varies depending on the level of the class. WCS is not WCS without this! I will be impressed when I find a Ceroc/MJ teacher who can teach WCS techniques better than a trained WCS teacher!!! Does the typical MJ teacher even know what Critical Timing is; the key element to musical interpretation in WCS????? Please keep us informed as to which Sunday you will be covering WCS technique and I'll be there!I have been to many WCS classes, private lessons etc... from top WCS teachers, and was very impressed by their teaching / talent and dancing ability. In most cases though, I found that as David Franklin said:
the problem is whoever teaches it tends to use their own dance style as the framework. This was particularly noticeable in WCS, maybe because you have to spend so many years learning / focusing on it that it leaves precious time for learning other dances, or indeed how to translate techniques like critical timing to other styles.
Re. critical timing, you probably would indeed be surprised, Lorna already replied, and I can think of a few more teachers, myself included, who use the technique, even if not using that name. I didn't have to re-invent the wheel, just pay close attentions to what DavidB had to say at a couple of workshops he did in Scotland and some of the discussions on this very forum. What made the difference was that he was able to teach a technique and show us how to use it within MJ, not forcing us to learn WCS to a proficient level.

The thing is, in doing the translation, you lose some of what makes it WCS (otherwise it still would be WCS!). The question is whether you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Of course it's subjective, but for my taste, Ceroc tends to lose too much "essence" during such translations, leaving only a pale imitation. I agree with all of that. If you want to be a great WCS dancer, go to great WCS teachers and work at it.

Franck
7th-October-2005, 10:02 AM
The thing is, in doing the translation, you lose some of what makes it WCS (otherwise it still would be WCS!). The question is whether you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Of course it's subjective, but for my taste, Ceroc tends to lose too much "essence" during such translations, leaving only a pale imitation. I agree, but I am not so much interested in translating WCS (or any other dance) just to look like a WCS dancer, I'm interested in the techniques (be it footwork, timing, frame, balance) that make a great WCS dancer great, so I can adapt those techniques to transform my MJ dancing.
So I agree with you, just saying wiggle your hips and you'll be dancing Salsa is too diluted, but if you teach dancers how to use their heels better when stepping, you get a similar effects that feels more like Salsa and might look better too.

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 10:19 AM
This was particularly noticeable in WCS, maybe because you have to spend so many years learning / focusing on it that it leaves precious time for learning other dances, or indeed how to translate techniques like critical timing to other styles.
:confused: The WCS teachers I know have a lot broader base than almost any MJ teacher. Most of them have studied ballroom, most can do shag and Lindy. They're not too strong on MJ - but do you really find this surprising? The real issue, I think, is that they're not interested in MJ, except, perhaps as an "entry drug" to WCS. So they are relatively uninterested in "teaching WCS in MJ"; they want the WCS movement to absorb MJ, not the other way around!


Re. critical timing, you probably would indeed be surprised, Lorna already replied, and I can think of a few more teachers, myself included, who use the technique, even if not using that name. I'm very interested to hear what both you, and Brady mean by critical timing; particularly as it relates to Modern Jive. I find it's one of the things where WCS is actually very "woolly" - everyone says "oh yes, critical timing, very important...", but I've found remarkably little on the web about what it actually is.

[To be heretical, I do find Skippy Blair tends towards somewhat non-rigourous definitions of terms. As a mathematician, I find this unsatisfactory...]

Franck
7th-October-2005, 10:40 AM
:confused: The WCS teachers I know have a lot broader base than almost any MJ teacher. Most of them have studied ballroom, most can do shag and Lindy. They're not too strong on MJ - but do you really find this surprising? The real issue, I think, is that they're not interested in MJ, except, perhaps as an "entry drug" to WCS. So they are relatively uninterested in "teaching WCS in MJ"; they want the WCS movement to absorb MJ, not the other way around!Well, maybe we have a different definition of most :wink:
Shag & Lindy are both swing dances... I like that many (if not yet most) MJ teachers have tried Tango, Salsa, Ballet, Jazz as well as some swing dances...

I'm very interested to hear what both you, and Brady mean by critical timing; particularly as it relates to Modern Jive. I find it's one of the things where WCS is actually very "woolly" - everyone says "oh yes, critical timing, very important...", but I've found remarkably little on the web about what it actually is.

[To be heretical, I do find Skippy Blair tends towards somewhat non-rigourous definitions of terms. As a mathematician, I find this unsatisfactory...]Well, I had to check Skippy's definition, and I like the way she describes it: (link to 'Critical Timing' article by Skippy Blair) (http://swingworld.com/articles/critical_timing.htm)

My adapted use of critical timing in MJ, would be to start applying a rolling count (& a 1, & a 2, etc...) and pause, start, emphasize moves / positions on the newly created stepping stones (i.e. the & or the a or the 2). This allows you, for example, to borrow time of the next beat / pattern and not simply fit the beat, but fit a different instrument within the track. I used some of those techniques in my 'Dancing to Slow music' class at Southport, and many of those techniques are still being assimilated in my head, and I'm looking forward to getting new inspiring ideas from DavidB in his musicality class at the BFG, as well as Amir's perspective at the Beach Ballroom.

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 11:06 AM
Shag & Lindy are both swing dances... I like that many (if not yet most) MJ teachers have tried Tango, Salsa, Ballet, Jazz as well as some swing dances...Except I wasn't meaning "tried" - I was meaning months of serious effort, private lessons etc... Going back to the "losing the essence" thing - I've seen respected MJ teachers who've "tried" WCS and gone on to 'teach' the concepts, and it was painfully bad. I think Robert Cordoba's ballroom is a bit better than that. Heck, his MJ is better than that!

To get back to my point, from the workshops I did in the states, the teachers did seem very good at explaining the differences between different styles (Shag, Lindy, Hand Dance, WCS, Waltz!), and how a technique might translate. But MJ isn't even on their radar. And I'm not sure it ever will be. It's a bit like ECS - you can ask about using Lindy technique in ECS, but the "real" answer they will be pushing at you is "give up ECS and switch to Lindy".

Franck
7th-October-2005, 11:26 AM
Going back to the "losing the essence" thing - I've seen respected MJ teachers who've "tried" WCS and gone on to 'teach' the concepts, and it was painfully bad. I think Robert Cordoba's ballroom is a bit better than that. Heck, his MJ is better than that!.
Ah, I agree, and maybe this is where the confusion started in this thread!

When I mentioned 'fads' in my original post, it wasn't meant as a derogatory comment. I am also not wanting to make someone dance MJ in a WCS, tango, lindy, hip hop, salsa style.

What I'm trying to do is to extend the range of music and versatility of MJ dancing. To that effect, it's very useful to listen to experts in other dances so I don't have to re-invent the wheel.
Stefano and Alexandra from 'Tango in action' were perfect examples of that, and they were able to pass on very advanced concepts in a language that was accessible to MJ dancers. If I want to teach dancers here how to separate leading from the upper body from styling in the lower body, I can use some of the techniques from Tango without dancing, or indeed looking like Tango.

So it's not about 'copying' other dances, it's about learning from their vast experience and using some of the essence to widen the MJ range.

CJ
7th-October-2005, 11:40 AM
So it's not about 'copying' other dances, it's about learning from their vast experience and using some of the essence to widen the MJ range.

Now, Franck...

Don't you go clouding the whole issue with facts!!:wink:

Ok, so it is your night and you know what it is that you are hoping to achieve, but hey let me make my own assumptions too!!:rolleyes:

HOWEVER, if I want to be closed minded and have a go because you are trying something new then that is my perogative. If I want to be truly anal about my "special interest area" and protect it's good name from the likes of you mongrels who have no idea about *musicality/frame/expression/footwork/delete as applicable*, then I can!!

Hey, we all know there is only one true dance form.:whistle:

And Ceroc isn't it.:rofl:

FWIW, Franck I think it's a great idea and I congratulate you once again for thinking "outside the box." At the risk of appearing as a sycophant, I am always impressed by the way you cater for "social dancers" AND those that want to improve, push themselves and expand their horizons within the same organisation.:worthy:

Charleston kicks.....:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
7th-October-2005, 01:14 PM
Has anyone thought about putting "balance" on the list of things to learn/practice, alongside connection, rhythm, musicality, and all the other good words? Could it be taught?

Franck
7th-October-2005, 01:21 PM
Has anyone thought about putting "balance" on the list of things to learn/practice, alongside connection, rhythm, musicality, and all the other good words? Could it be taught?Well, balance is on my list (see first post), not so much personal balance (though that would be touched on when learning spins / (slow) turns etc... But mostly being aware of your partner's, as well as your own, balance and momentum.
It is possible to teach how to improve balance, but the first step is to become aware of how it affects dancing (and leading in particular).

El Salsero Gringo
7th-October-2005, 01:23 PM
Well, balance is on my list (see first post)So it is - silly me. Ta!

Brady
7th-October-2005, 01:30 PM
Ah, I agree, and maybe this is where the confusion started in this thread!

When I mentioned 'fads' in my original post, it wasn't meant as a derogatory comment. I am also not wanting to make someone dance MJ in a WCS, tango, lindy, hip hop, salsa style.

What I'm trying to do is to extend the range of music and versatility of MJ dancing. To that effect, it's very useful to listen to experts in other dances so I don't have to re-invent the wheel.

Now I think this thread is getting somewhere! As long as MJ is happy to give full credit to all the styles it is learning/borrowing from, then carry on. Although to those of us that actually do some of the other styles, it is sometimes an absolute disgrace to see what some of our stuff turns into when it gets taken into MJ (i.e. first move Charleston kicks in MJ looks like my 85 year old gran trying to do side by side Charleston!).

I still don't think it is fair to say "if you want to learn how to add WCS style to your MJ, don't go to a WCS class". A teacher of WCS, lindy, tango, or whatever is surely more capable of teaching dance technique given that for most, this has been drilled in from day one. We were just teaching alongside Andrew Sutton (US Champion Lindy Dancer) last week in Spain and he did an amazing techniques class one night to a mixed crowd including MJ dancers who learned from it at the same time as the swing dancers. And as said before, these concepts are presented in every class, not just special workshops as these things are fundamental to dancing. If you go to a WCS, lindy, tango, etc. class surely you're getting a better bargain by learning the dance style of the class be it WCS, lindy, tango, or whatever and at the same time dance fundamentals and technique that you can use in both that style and MJ.

Brady

Brady
7th-October-2005, 01:47 PM
It is possible to teach how to improve balance, but the first step is to become aware of how it affects dancing (and leading in particular).

This is interesting. I would normally consider how to control your own weight (in relation to balance) outside of dancing, as a first step. We spent hours with Skippy Blair learning to walk without thinking about dancing. In a specific techniques workshop I would normally aim to start with concepts like center point of balance and implement this into how we walk down the street (although not obvious, there are lots of details that go into this). Once mastered, then we can try it in some motion studies, which gradually builds into turns and spinning.

As Franck has mentioned, these are general concepts not really specific to any type of dance, that once mastered, you are one huge step further in several dance styles without even having done a lindy, tango, or whatever move.

Aleks
7th-October-2005, 02:09 PM
This is interesting. I would normally consider how to control your own weight (in relation to balance) outside of dancing, as a first step. We spent hours with Skippy Blair learning to walk without thinking about dancing. In a specific techniques workshop I would normally aim to start with concepts like center point of balance and implement this into how we walk down the street (although not obvious, there are lots of details that go into this). Once mastered, then we can try it in some motion studies, which gradually builds into turns and spinning.


Yes, and you are a sequential learner/thinker and find this approach beneficial(I'm making assumptions I know, but most of your posts relating to this kind of stuff points in that direction).

'Most' people doing MJ want to have fun, socialise and learn to dance all at the same time. This Forum is pretty unrepresentative of the 'average' dancer!
Joining the concept of lead/follow and balance together gives an aspiring dancer a reason to learn the stuff you would like to see and unless there is a perceived reason for doing something, most people ignore these kind of 'tips' (unless you get them in a quiet room and tell them this stuff as an extra on their first night, which is probably why we have taxis :wink: ).

I'd take the same view as you if I were going to teach ballet to people who wanted to excel, but not to a group who want to learn for social/fun reasons. As I see it, Ceroc caters for the latter, with the possibility of excellence for those who dig a little deeper/do workshops and weekenders etc etc.

David Franklin
7th-October-2005, 02:14 PM
I still don't think it is fair to say "if you want to learn how to add WCS style to your MJ, don't go to a WCS class". A teacher of WCS, lindy, tango, or whatever is surely more capable of teaching dance technique given that for most, this has been drilled in from day one.The thing is, the technique, or move, or whatever, has to be translated into something that makes sense for modern jive. Sometimes that's simple, but sometimes it isn't. And I think it needs knowledge of MJ to pull it off when it isn't simple...

Piglet
7th-October-2005, 08:24 PM
Starting on the 30th October, every Sunday night in Stirling (King Robert Hotel, Glasgow Road) I will be running an hour 'Focus on...' Workshop.
The idea will be to focus on one technical point (i.e. connection / frame / footwork / balance / spinning / etc...) or style / musicality for a full hour every week.


This sounds fantastic Franck - is there a chance you can post which particular technical point will be focussed upon on which date?

As much as I love workshops and learning more about improving my dancing - driving down every Sunday doesn't appeal to me at the moment - if there was one in Aberdeen however ...:whistle:

If you could let us know via the forum what is next on your Stirling Sunday agenda, then it would give us Aberdonians a chance to see if others fancy the same class and car share. Certainly I would definitely make the effort to get to Stirling if it were a point I was desperate to improve on.

Brady
10th-October-2005, 06:39 PM
Well, if you want to learn how to add WCS style to your MJ, don't go to a WCS class, as most teachers I have seen (with the exception of DavidB), struggle to teach WCS musicality techniques and style if you haven't absorbed years of sugar pushes and triple steps.
Some Ceroc / MJ teachers can certainly translate some WCS techniques to adapt your MJ dancing to fit.

Just been reading on another thread and came across the following post by DavidB where he was responding to Gadget.




When I see MJ people saying "wow: WCS" I think "Why wow? What are they doing that you can't? Why can't you?"
They aren't doing anything in WCS you can't do in MJ. However they have teachers in WCS who can show them how to do it. There are no such teachers in MJ yet.

It appears that even DavidB is sceptical about MJ teachers teaching WCS techniques and styling!!!!

Brady

Aleks
10th-October-2005, 10:01 PM
It appears that even DavidB is sceptical about MJ teachers teaching WCS techniques and styling!!!!

Brady

I thought he was saying that there's no-one yet in MJ who can teach specific styling/technique (probably because there aren't any defined 'rules' for technique and precision in MJ yet; no footwork/placing etc - all the things you like about WCS).

Gadget
10th-October-2005, 10:57 PM
I thought he was saying that there's no-one yet in MJ who can teach specific styling/technique (probably because there aren't any defined 'rules' for technique and precision in MJ yet; no footwork/placing etc - all the things you like about WCS).
And may they never darken my door! {:whistle:}

Whitebeard
11th-October-2005, 01:28 AM
And may they never darken my door! {:whistle:}
And that's for sure.

Franck
17th-October-2005, 05:17 PM
This sounds fantastic Franck - is there a chance you can post which particular technical point will be focussed upon on which date?
Yes, :D I will definitely post a programme so everyone can decide whether to attend the class or not in advance. I'll post the programme after the BFG though :D


It appears that even DavidB is sceptical about MJ teachers teaching WCS techniques and styling!!!!Well David has very high standards indeed. I imagine very few (if any) Ceroc teachers teach WCS techniques at a Ceroc class, we really wouldn't want to.
There are however several excellent, experienced (and trained)Ceroc teachers who have learnt other dances and are able to teach those techniques in an MJ context. I'm quite sure that they are not as proficient as good WCS (or other specialist) teachers in the US, but my point is that at least they understand (and don't look down on) Modern Jive and can therefore make it relevant to their students.

I understand that WCS is a difficult dance to learn, it seems that you're also saying that it's also incredibly difficult to teach any aspects of it.
I wonder what the training and teaching qualifications are to be able to call yourself a WCS teacher? It certainly seems that the entry bar is raised quite high.

Lindsay
18th-October-2005, 11:13 AM
why have the last 3 posts here been deleted??

David Bailey
18th-October-2005, 11:18 AM
why have the last 3 posts here been deleted??
Don't panic, they've moved to the "dance difficulty" thread...

Brady
18th-October-2005, 12:52 PM
Don't panic, they've moved to the "dance difficulty" thread...

Fair enough, but why is this thread in the 'Intermediate Corner' section????? :confused: :what:

Should it not have been moved to 'Land of 1000 Dances'????

David Bailey
18th-October-2005, 01:20 PM
Fair enough, but why is this thread in the 'Intermediate Corner' section????? :confused: :what:

Should it not have been moved to 'Land of 1000 Dances'????
It is now :)
The moderators see all, know all, tell a great deal more. Hail to the moderators :rofl:

Tiggerbabe
30th-October-2005, 11:30 AM
:clap: :clap: Tonight's the night! :D

Franck
30th-October-2005, 12:44 PM
This sounds fantastic Franck - is there a chance you can post which particular technical point will be focussed upon on which date?
Hey, It took me long enough, though between the BFG and a busy week-end in Inverness, I'm only just back and able to post the timetable for the next few weeks:

*30/11: Focus on... 'Connection', improving connection to enhance lead & follow.
*6/11: Focus on... Musicality, using the beat(s)Listening & adapting your dancing to the main and secondary beats to dance more musically.
*13/11: Focus on... Walks. Leading walks, improving balance and posture. Simple footwork.
*20/11: Focus on... Musicality: Hi-jacking the lead. Using the connection & frame to insert style and Hi-jacks without losing the flow of the dance.
*27/11: CLOSED
*4/12: Focus on... Turns / spins. Improving your turn / spin technique, using balance, frame and momentum.
*11/12: Focus on... Footwork - Triple steps & Cha-chas.

I look forward to seeing a few of you tonight, and over the next few weeks. Remember that if you can't make the class at 7.00pm, you can still join the Freestyle after 8.15pm where Tiggerbabe has been given free reign to play interpretative, inspiring, and bluesy music
:clap:

Piglet
30th-October-2005, 04:25 PM
A huge thanks Franck!

I reckon I'm going to come along on the 6th! Got too much marking to do tonight (although when I put things into perspective which is more important: marking or ceroc, ceroc or marking... hmmmm - I think I could be swayed!) Definitely will make the 6th though. Looking forward to it already!

Glad you're not doing one on the 27th as I was just wondering how to be in two places at once!:hug: :hug:

Piglet
30th-October-2005, 04:34 PM
Glad you're not doing one on the 27th as I was just wondering how to be in two places at once!:hug: :hug:
Ignore silly little me! I thought the 27th was closed cos it coincided with the Beach Ballroom! :tears: Turns out I'd have to be in 2 places at once if I wanted to do the Stirling thing, but I'm going to stick with the Aberdeen Sunday party cos I always enjoy the Sunday parties here :D

Hope the Stirling class doesn't steal away any lovely people from the Aberdeen night though.:flower:

Tiggerbabe
30th-October-2005, 04:39 PM
Hope the Stirling class doesn't steal away any lovely people from the Aberdeen night though.:flower:
Nah, just Franck and myself............you get to keep the lovely people :wink:

Look forward to seeing you next week Piglet, you sure you're not gonna come to Dundee tomorrow night? :whistle:

Piglet
31st-October-2005, 02:03 PM
How did last night go? Did many turn up for the class? What about the freestyle? Any tips for next Sunday - regards parking, getting there early, etc? Wish I'd been there, but couldn't keep my eyes open beyond 8.30pm so it's maybe just as well...

Franck
31st-October-2005, 05:05 PM
How did last night go? Did many turn up for the class? What about the freestyle? Any tips for next Sunday - regards parking, getting there early, etc? Wish I'd been there, but couldn't keep my eyes open beyond 8.30pm so it's maybe just as well...It went really well, the class was way busier than I had expected, and I'm not sure we could have fitted anymore round the floor. I was almost wishing there had been fewer people as the technical class involved lots of experimental exercises and it was hard to track the results / effects. Having said that, we did loads of useful stuff and I was very impressed at the results when dancing with everyone later on.
Music for the Freestyle was smooth, lush and sexy... so no complaints from me there :D and a few more visitors arrived later on to keep everyone dancing.

Next Sunday, and any Sunday, take it easy, arrive 5 minutes before the start, just enough time to order a drink and join in. I liked the intimate atmosphere of the venue and the floor was pretty fast too. We are doing musicality and dancing to the beat (main and secondary beats).

There's plenty of parking in the hotel itself, so no worries there.

doc martin
31st-October-2005, 07:05 PM
How did last night go? Did many turn up for the class? What about the freestyle? Any tips for next Sunday - regards parking, getting there early, etc? Wish I'd been there, but couldn't keep my eyes open beyond 8.30pm so it's maybe just as well...
I had a really enjoyable evening. To start from the start, getting there. Coming from Edinburgh or Glasgow it is very easy to find. Just 1 mile off of the M90, with plenty of parking. It took us just half an hour to get there from the far side of the Forth Road Bridge.

The class is in a nice private room on the 1st floor of the hotel, with it's own bar which gives a separate seating area away from the dance floor. There is also a main bar downstairs if you wanted to escape from the dancing (I've no idea why anyone would either). The floor is not huge, maybe 5m by 20m and is quick, with a nice (but rather crowded!) stage area and plenty of seating round the edge.

An excellent class from Franck to kick the evening off. His enthusiasm for the subject is infectious. One hour on connection flashed by, maybe half spent listening and half in exercises, although I could be underestimating the amount of time the exercises took as they required a lot of concentration. After this class and the workshops at the BFG I have now got more of an idea how connection works. Putting the lessons into action may take a little time (slight understatement), but with more Sunday classes coming up to reinforce what I have garnered so far I have some optimism.

Freestyle started 8:15 giving us over 3 hours. :worthy: to Tiggerbabe for an excellent set, mixing a variety of (mostly) slower tracks, some more latin style some more bluesy. The style and speed of the tracks allowed plenty of scope for trying to use connection to make leading and following more interesting, as well as being just the sort of music I can get immersed in.

And thanks TB for putting on Montserrat (not sure whether I have that right, but you know the one I mean), which I had loved dancing to at the BFG.

We left about 11pm as it had been a long night at Marcos on Saturday feeling we seen the start of something new and exciting, full of enthusiasm to know more. We'll be going again.

jammy
31st-October-2005, 09:06 PM
just wanted 2 add a wee thing. i never made it till about 10:15 with my bro cauz we were at dinner with family but manadged 2 get 1 hour of dancein (our fix 2 last us till tuesday) thw music was fantastic :clap: :worthy: to tiggerbabe had loads of fantastic dances but was gutted that i missed the class but it was well worth the last hour. :clap: well done franck
jammy

ducasi
31st-October-2005, 09:56 PM
I'm really sorry I missed it. Was shattered after Pitlochry and had to get home for a bit of a rest.

I hope to make it in the future, though if it was nearer a rail station and was scheduled earlier in the day to allow me to get home and to my bed at a decent hour, it would make it easier for me... (I'm sure other people would disagree though...)

Piglet
7th-November-2005, 01:46 PM
Thanks for a thought provoking class on Musicality, Franck and Sheena!

Really enjoyed last night and can't wait to come along to another one.

Thanks to all the lovely guys for their super dances and to Danielle for being brave enough to let me lead until I got muddled again :wink:

Tiggerbabe
7th-November-2005, 09:47 PM
Really enjoyed myself last night :D

Brilliant dances with Jammy (leading and following :wink: ), Doc Martin (see, I told you Raghav rocks :drool: ) Azzande and Franck. Thanks to Trampy for trying out my new *Roxanne* version, too. Sorry for making you wait, Piglet :hug:

Great dances with Aleks and Caroline :clap:

And Franck - great prop! You did say we could dance to anything :rofl:

Paul F
8th-November-2005, 12:02 PM
:clap:
Sounds like a brilliant night and one that I would LOVE to be able to go to.

3 hours of freestyle to brilliant music + a speciality class :drool: Perfect end to a weekend in my book :wink:

Im hoping to arrange a trip up north of the border in the new year so will hopefully be able to sample it for myself.

Tiggerbabe
8th-November-2005, 06:28 PM
Im hoping to arrange a trip up north of the border in the new year so will hopefully be able to sample it for myself.
Team it up with one of the Beach Ballroom events and I can guarantee you'll have the *best* weekend ever :D

Paul F
8th-November-2005, 06:36 PM
Team it up with one of the Beach Ballroom events and I can guarantee you'll have the *best* weekend ever :D

Hey , thats not a bad idea!

To save me from looking (being so busy and all) :blush: when would the next one be?

azande
8th-November-2005, 06:57 PM
In two weeks time..... have a look here (http://cerocscotland.com/Beach.htm)

Tiggerbabe
8th-November-2005, 07:00 PM
when would the next one be?
weekend of 18th/19th February 2006 :clap:

Paul F
8th-November-2005, 07:25 PM
The February one sounds good. Will be in touch :)

Tiggerbabe
8th-November-2005, 08:10 PM
Here's Franck's list of other dates for 2006 (pinched from Under Par's Diary thread :blush: ) - just in case :wink:

Beach Ballroom: Aberdeen (Typically a top guest teacher and party in one of our best venues)
- 18th/19th February.
- 15th/16th April.
- 17th/18th June.
- 18th/19th November.

Big Forum Gathering: Glasgow - 12th/13th/14th May.

Scottish Champs: Edinburgh - 8th/9th September.

Special Event (details to be confirmed): Stirling - 22nd/23rd/24th September
__________________

johnthehappyguy
14th-November-2005, 08:15 PM
Excellent class last night.

As with the previous classes, this got me thinking about my dancing again.

It is news I can use.

Franck makes things seem so straightforward.:worthy:

I can hardly believe the change in my walking ( well my potential to walk better).

Placing the toe, then the heel on the beat , rather than the toe on the beat. So obvious,:what: now I know it, I'll just have to apply it more.:D

Thanks to all for the great dances. :cheers:

johnthehappyguy:nice:

Franck
17th-November-2005, 03:00 PM
Just a quick post to let everyone know that the Focus workshops now last for 1 hour and 30 minutes (an hour just wasn't enough), so the class will start at 7.00pm until 8.30pm followed by the 3 hour freestyle full of smooth sexy tracks with DJ Tiggerbabe.

This Sunday's Focus will be on Ladies' Hi-jack.
Not a style class, though we'll mention a few stylish options, but more of a technical class on successfully taking over the connection to insert stylish breaks.
A useful class for both
- followers who would like to express themselves and interpret the music more.
- leaders who are always taken by surprise and pull their partner off balance when she was just beginning something interesting!

JoC
17th-November-2005, 05:24 PM
Hello! You don't need to book for these classes do you...? Hoping to make it along this Sunday.:)

doc martin
17th-November-2005, 07:05 PM
Hello! You don't need to book for these classes do you...? Hoping to make it along this Sunday.:)
Nope, turn up on the door. I would advise being on time though as the class starts far more promptly than most ceroc classes I have attended.

Tiggerbabe
18th-November-2005, 11:55 PM
Hello! You don't need to book for these classes do you...? Hoping to make it along this Sunday.:)
Will be great to see you Jo, hope you can make it :hug:

JoC
21st-November-2005, 02:40 PM
Will be great to see you Jo, hope you can make it :hug:
Thankyou Tiggerbabe!
That was a new experience, great stuff! Never really dabbled with this bluesy-schmoozy stuff before (not for a whole night anyway...), lots of opportunities to try some really dodgy 'interpretation' and fall over my own feet. All good, hope to do it again soon :D .

Lovely to see everyone, hope ye visitors enjoyed it too.:flower:

ducasi
21st-November-2005, 03:04 PM
Lovely to see everyone... Was really good to see you too, shame I didn't get a chance to dance with you. Will try to stay later next time. :flower:

I found the workshop really interesting. What I think would be cool is for Franck to take these "Focus On..." workshop on a tour, so once he's done them all in Stirling, he might want to bring the series down to Glasgow, or up to Aberdeen...

I'll write more of my thoughts on my blog. Might have time tonight... Watch this space... :nice:

Night Owl
21st-November-2005, 09:13 PM
Was really good to see you too, shame I didn't get a chance to dance with you. Will try to stay later next time. :flower:

I found the workshop really interesting. What I think would be cool is for Franck to take these "Focus On..." workshop on a tour, so once he's done them all in Stirling, he might want to bring the series down to Glasgow, or up to Aberdeen...

I'll write more of my thoughts on my blog. Might have time tonight... Watch this space... :nice:
Not forgetting INVERNESS :yeah:

Piglet
24th-November-2005, 01:26 AM
What I think would be cool is for Franck to take these "Focus On..." workshop on a tour, so once he's done them all in Stirling, he might want to bring the series down to Glasgow, or up to Aberdeen...

Such a stonking idea Ducasi! Why didn't I think of that one? :wink:
I can't wait for him to revisit the same lessons (especially for the ones I've missed) again - even the ones I will have attended I reckon I could still improve lots on. Looking forward to the next Sunday class - which I have a sneaky feeling isn't this Sunday (but hopefully I'm wrong).

Tiggerbabe
24th-November-2005, 09:04 AM
Looking forward to the next Sunday class - which I have a sneaky feeling isn't this Sunday (but hopefully I'm wrong).
Nope, 'fraid you're right Piglet :tears:

SUNDAY 27th NOVEMBER THERE IS NO FOCUS ON TECHNIQUE AND BLUES FREESTYLE.

However, it'll be back on the 4th December with a Spins and Turns workshop - hope to see you there :hug:

Tiggerbabe
27th-November-2005, 05:46 PM
Nice avatar Piglet! (Was getting mightily confused there for a while :wink: )

Tiggerbabe
6th-December-2005, 12:32 AM
Huge thankyou to everyone for the fab dances last night - I had an amazing time :drool:
Loved the props again Franck :rofl: and I'll get you back for making me blush :blush:
Last night's playlist can be found in the playlist thread (well not yet, I'm still typing, but maybe in about half an hour :wink: )

ducasi
6th-December-2005, 01:01 AM
I had a great time, thanks Tiggerbabe. :flower:

Of course, you've already seen my post on my blog about it (http://ducasi.org/blog/2005/12/05/smooth-grooves-in-stirling/), but maybe other people might be interested...

The good news is that I've also finished the write-up of my last visit to Stirling after the Beach Ballroom weekend, but I'm holding it back until I've got all the write-ups done for then. I'm sure I'll have them finished for Christmas! :wink:

Must try to get back up for the next one on the 11th... Anyone going from/to Glasgow who can give me a lift? :nice: :flower:

ducasi
12th-December-2005, 11:26 PM
Must try to get back up for the next one on the 11th... Anyone going from/to Glasgow who can give me a lift? :nice: :flower:
Hey, guess what? I made it not just to the freestyle this week, but to the class as well, all without doing the Cinderella thing, too.

If was another really fun night, and I learnt a fair bit, during and after workshop, on and off the floor. :wink:

Here's my blog posting (http://ducasi.org/blog/2005/12/12/stirling-cha-cha/) that I know you're all dying to read.

While I'm here, I might as well say I now have another big chunk of my BB write-up done and might even get it all posted this week. :nice:

Piglet
12th-December-2005, 11:43 PM
Wow! I'd actually forgotten about this thread, so thanks for posting Ducasi.

I had a wonderful time again last night. Interesting class - though I think it will take me many more years (if ever) to get the hang of this footwork thing. Liked the teaching of the different subtleties which I would never ever have been aware of in a million years if Franck hadn't commented on them.

Here was me thinking I'd got the hang of something and then Franck would stop us and point out how "some of us" weren't getting the step quite right and yep, I've gotta say a lot of the time I was part of that "some of us". I'm hoping that my new awareness will go some way to improving my dancing in some miniscule way.

What a fab night though, filled with fab dancers and fab fab fab music!
Someone please invent a teleporter soon, cos even if these dance classes come to Aberdeen I'm going to miss dancing with my Southern men (and getting lovely hugs at the end of the night)!