Dance Competition criteria

[Gus]

Now that the Competition season fast approaches ... time to resurect a previous theme .... what do you have to do to win?

Ask any of the competitors who have entered .... could any of them concisely tell you what the judges are looking for? Interestingly, Chance to Dance have this year publicised their judges criteria in detail this year. This raises a few questions. Previously, I think nearly all competitons have dais (at least at advanced level) something like "judges are looking for musical interpretation rather than complexity of moves". This year's rules seem to have moved away from this. The way I read them it would appear that complexity of moves is being given at least as high as importance as dancing to the music.

If this is a correct interpretation does the considered intelligencia of this Forum think this is a positive move? At advanced level what is important?

[Tiggerbabe]

Originally posted by Gus

If this is a correct interpretation does the considered intelligencia of this Forum think this is a positive move? At advanced level what is important?

Well - I'm probably not qualified to answer BUT in my humble opinion I don't think this is a good thing.............for me the thing that often separates the good dancers from the very good is their abililty to interpret the music. When you watch the advanced dancers it is the way they move to and with the music that captures your eye. Ok They often are doing complicated moves - but doing them so well you are unaware of it...........To give equally as many points for the difficult moves may mean a routine of point scoring moves joined together with no thought for what music may be played. In fact it will probably mean more choreographed routines than we see at present.

We've all seen couples who shine at perhaps the slow records but don't dance so well when the music is faster or vice versa. If you are only marking the moves they do then will this matter any more? To my eye it will but to the judges........................

[DavidB]

I think it is a bad idea...

but...

It is certainly easier to mark variety of moves compared to musical interpretation. I think the biggest problem at the moment is that a lot of people they can feel the interpretation with their partner, but it doesn't look obvious. A judge can only base his marks on what he can see.

Another problem is that a lot of the interpretation is limited to the breaks. What about the rest of the music?

(The standard of musical interpretation in jive has improved dramatically over the last couple of years, but it still has a long way to go. I hope this development continues.)

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB

It is certainly easier to mark variety of moves compared to musical interpretation. I think the biggest problem at the moment is that a lot of people they can feel the interpretation with their partner, but it doesn't look obvious. A judge can only base his marks on what he can see.

David

Dear Oracle ... not sure if I entirly agree with you. Looking back over the vids of the UK Open and the Ceroc Competition for 2002 I think there are clearly visible differences between this dancers who are listening to the music and 'interpreting' it and those who are just applying a series of moves.

My other bug-bear is that who decided that just because there is a break in the music that you hav to stop like a 'Simon says' statue?:reallymad I though that we were supposed to be dabcing. By all means slow or minimilise your movement but don't just stop EVERY time the track does. The wierdest thing I saw was a freetsyle where the 'Beep Beep' song was playing (loads of breaks) and every 20 seconds or so the whole dance floor just froze i psuedo unison ... "We're all individuals...."

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Dear Oracle ... not sure if I entirly agree with you. Looking back over the vids of the UK Open and the Ceroc Competition for 2002 I think there are clearly visible differences between this dancers who are listening to the music and 'interpreting' it and those who are just applying a series of moves. It is easy to spot good musical interpretation when you have the luxury of concentrating on one couple. But for a judge who has only 20 seconds to watch each couple it is a different problem. No-one interprets everything in a song - it would be too much. And songs are not constant - some parts have far more you can work with than others. So if a judge watches you in an instrumental bit in the song, when there is not a huge amount going on, and you are not doing much apart from moves, then you may get marked down.


My other bug-bear is that who decided that just because there is a break in the music that you hav to stop like a 'Simon says' statue? I though that we were supposed to be dabcing. By all means slow or minimilise your movement but don't just stop EVERY time the track does. The wierdest thing I saw was a freetsyle where the 'Beep Beep' song was playing (loads of breaks) and every 20 seconds or so the whole dance floor just froze i psuedo unisonThat is an improvement on a few years ago, when people just continued doing moves no matter what the music did. But I take your point - musical interpretation is about far more than 'hitting the breaks'. It just takes time for people to be find out what they can do.

David

[Roger C]

Hi Gus,

The answer to your question may be found on www.fusiondance.co.uk there is at last workshop answering many of the competitors questions.

There are a few things that Modern Jive competitions could do to make things more clear for their competitors.
As it is they who spend their time and money to support these events.

1. It would be nice to know who are on the judging panel before the applications go in to organisers.
Most other dance competitions already do this.

Over time competitors will be able to see who likes their dancing or not.
At the moment this information is hidden within the judging panel.


2. All the marks should be available to the competitors - so that they can gauge their progress.

There shouldn't be any need for the marks to be held back.


3. Teachers/coaches who are on the judging panel should declare any interest they have in a couple that they are privately coaching, who are in the competition and stand down if they are due to be judging their own students - so that a totally impartial decision can be made.

These are some of the questions you should be asking before the competition and not after.

Roger C

[Gus]

Originally posted by Roger C
.........
These are some of the questions you should be asking before the competition and not after.

Roger C

Roger ...well put.

I think that th UK Open is already looking to meet your suggested criteria (Keith .. any comment).

Would anyone from Ceroc HQ like to confirm the same? (We know you are watching:devil: )

[Roger C]

Hi Gus,

Good to see that you still have your finger on the pulse!
Have you checked out the website yet?
What are your considered thoughts?

Roger C

[Gus]

Originally posted by Roger C
Hi Gus,

Good to see that you still have your finger on the pulse!
Have you checked out the website yet?
What are your considered thoughts?

Roger C

I got notification about the Dance Comp workshop through Amir's circular. Must admit to mixed feelings. The course content and the credentials of the instructors seem pretty good. However, it does raise the question about whether the best dancer wins. As Amir's text says, the best dancer doesn't always win as they don't know how to best impress the judges. Is the need to learn how to present your skills best or is it all down to "tricks of the trade".

Like most dancers I don't take competitions THAT seriously, maybe naively I belive if I just dance well, then that will show in the final placings .... is that just wishfull thinking?

There are some dancers taking the competitions very seriously (and have the ego and attitudes to match) wheras I still think that it would be a shame for the competition circuit to lose its current friendliness.... or is it too late for that? It seems a natural progression in other sports/activities I taken part in that as the desire/pressure to improve grows, participants have to take things more seriously and then it becomes more difficult to enjoy the activity purely for its own sake. That is the reason, I feel, why some of the best dancers don't compete.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
However, it does raise the question about whether the best dancer wins. As Amir's text says, the best dancer doesn't always win as they don't know how to best impress the judges. Is the need to learn how to present your skills best or is it all down to "tricks of the trade". Like most dancers I don't take competitions THAT seriously, maybe naively I belive if I just dance well, then that will show in the final placings .... is that just wishfull thinking?It all depends on what you mean by 'best dancer'. If you are just interested in who 'looks' the best, then the current format is as good a way as any to find out. Amir's workshop is attempting to teach people how to put on a performance when they compete, and look as good as they can. This is a vital part of doing well in competitions, and also for doing cabarets etc.

For me the problem is that this 'putting on a performance' criteria is a very minor part of what most people do. There could be plenty of better definitions of the 'best' dancer:
- who enjoys it the most
- who gives their partner the most enjoyment
- the best leader
- the best follower
- the most musical
- who dances the most
- who knows the most moves
- who has improved the most

But how do you judge these criteria?

David

[TheTramp]

- who dances the mostHmmm. I might stand a chance in this category :D

Steve

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Hmmm. I might stand a chance in this category :D

Only if I have broken legs on the day... and even then, I'd try to sit a chance... (giggle) ... oooh, I'm gonna pay the punalty for that one. :D

[TheTramp]

Hmm.....

Competition.

(ring, ring)
Hello, is that Bruisers Inc. I have a job for you......

Steve

[DavidB]

Something that occurred to me recently is the popularity of some of the younger male dancers around who are very good individual dancers. The style is very eye-catching, and sometimes the musical interpretation is superb (to the right music!). But how would you mark them in a competition?

In other words how much weight should be given to individual dancing ability in a partner-dance competition?

David

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB


In other words how much weight should be given to individual dancing ability in a partner-dance competition?

David

There is an argument that says they should be marked down! The basis of most rules seems to favour the 'partner' element ... i.e. lead and follow, joint interpretation. If one partner starts 'showboating' then doesn't that then cease to be a partner dance ... surely either dancer shouldn't just use their partner just as a statute to dance off? {bit black and white response I know .... too many shades of grey to cover in a short response}

[Dreadful Scathe]

You're only as good as the partner you're with - 'showboating' without them following looks pretty daft. Not that I have the problem of dancing beter than my partner :)

After consideration I think my avatar tag line should be 'Scathe Dances, Confusion Reigns' - they say if at least one of you know whats happening it'll all work out - partners.. Im relying on you to know whats happening ;)

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Agree with DS- as in sport, you're only as good as the worse player. Can't beat a good lead and follow, and if you both travel with the music, you can produce the winning combination.

[Carla]

any of you lads out there need a pertner?

I would like to enter the next ceroc comp...

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Carla
any of you lads out there need a pertner?



That depends. Just how 'pert' are you ? :)

[Siobhan (Forum Plant)]

Hey smurf- leave the poor girl alone... 'pertner' is posh Edinburgh for 'partner'!

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
Agree with DS- as in sport, you're only as good as the worse player. Can't beat a good lead and follow, and if you both travel with the music, you can produce the winning combination.
Hmmm... I think I'm generally guilty of showboating, LoL... but I kinda feel that if I don't practice incorporating as much style as I can, then when I'm dancing with a stylish partner, I just won't know what to do with myself. :)

Had a *great* dance with one of the class teachers last week, she really made the floor sizzle - whoa, quadruple spins! I'm sure she would have been equally dazzling without me, but it was nice to feel like I was at least trying to make a contribution. :)

Live passionately,

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Something that occurred to me recently is the popularity of some of the younger male dancers around who are very good individual dancers. The style is very eye-catching, and sometimes the musical interpretation is superb (to the right music!). But how would you mark them in a competition?

In other words how much weight should be given to individual dancing ability in a partner-dance competition?

David

Found this old thread ... and wondered of opinions had changed over the last year or so. 12 months ago we had a major flurry of debate, argument and pontification about what should win a Championship. 12 months on ... has anyone a clearer view?

A number of the Forum members are now judges themselves .... yet the results from the 4 (or 5) competitions in 2003 seem to indicate little consistency between the judging. Should there be concerted effort to come up with standard criteria and judges guidelines for all MJ competitions?

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
A number of the Forum members are now judges themselves .... yet the results from the 4 (or 5) competitions in 2003 seem to indicate little consistency between the judging. Should there be concerted effort to come up with standard criteria and judges guidelines for all MJ competitions?

In my opinion it's good that different competitions judge on different criteria. If means that different people can be 'the best'.

What I think is important is that the organiser publishes a clear statement of what the judges are looking for well in advance of the competiton so people can work on perfecting those aspects of their dancing.

Also, I think it is important that the winners are not found by using raw scores. As I demonstrated elsewhere, using raw scores could result in one judge having a massive influence over the eventual result - which can not be fair.


On a personal note, I live in hope that one day there will be a prize for 'sillyest competitor'...:wink:

[jiveclone]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
On a personal note, I live in hope that one day there will be a prize for 'sillyest competitor'...:wink:

I am not sure that the exact description is sillyest, however in the aerials competitions at Beach Boogie there is usually a prize awarded based on criteria not entirely unconnected with sillyest...

[RobC]

Originally posted by jiveclone
I am not sure that the exact description is sillyest, however in the aerials competitions at Beach Boogie there is usually a prize awarded based on criteria not entirely unconnected with sillyest...
Yup, and the Beach Boogie Blues competition has a 'most entertaining' award, as well as the standard positions - which I walked away with this year :waycool:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by RobC
Yup, and the Beach Boogie Blues competition has a 'most entertaining' award, as well as the standard positions - which I walked away with this year :waycool:

I think 'walking' was too kind a description. How about 'fell into':devil:

[RobC]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think 'walking' was too kind a description. How about 'fell into':devil:
I'll have you know that was a carefully choreographed move, perfectly executed, and fantastically improvised by my partner Melody, who didn't have a clue what I was doing.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Lounge Lizard]

Originally posted by RobC
Yup, and the Beach Boogie Blues competition has a 'most entertaining' award, as well as the standard positions - which I walked away with this year

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I think 'walking' was too kind a description. How about 'fell into':devil: I think it was well deserved, any man that dances a blues comp on his knees gets my vote:wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by RobC
I'll have you know that was a carefully choreographed move, perfectly executed, and fantastically improvised by my partner Melody, who didn't have a clue what I was doing.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

She was gifted just to stay on her feet the ground was shaking so much:devil:

[RobC]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
She was gifted just to stay on her feet the ground was shaking so much:devil:
Now now Andy. Just because you're jealous that I didn't enter the competition with you .... :tears:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Gus

wheras I still think that it would be a shame for the competition circuit to lose its current friendliness.... or is it too late for that? It seems a natural progression in other sports/activities I taken part in that as the desire/pressure to improve grows, participants have to take things more seriously and then it becomes more difficult to enjoy the activity purely for its own sake.

Have both! Big serious competitions for people that want that, and the occasional little club level competitions for people who want the thrill of competing but without expectations regarding performance and the associated practising.

[Gus]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Have both! Big serious competitions for people that want that, and the occasional little club level competitions for people who want the thrill of competing but without expectations regarding performance and the associated practising.

...and thats exactly what we're goin to do!:grin: :grin:

OK ... maybe not 'club level', but the next best thing. Following on from the Martin/Andy McG thread, we WILL be hosting a North West Event .. probably in July for our region ... just the small matter of judges, dancers, rules, venues, publicity etc. etc. :sick:

Still trying to work out the balance between making it for fun, yet still interesting enough for people to be motivated to enter. Also working on format. Want to make it more freestyle than competition, which is causing problems with timings!:sad:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Gus
...and thats exactly what we're goin to do!:grin: :grin:

OK ... maybe not 'club level', but the next best thing. Following on from the Martin/Andy McG thread, we WILL be hosting a North West Event .. probably in July for our region ... just the small matter of judges, dancers, rules, venues, publicity etc. etc. :sick:

Still trying to work out the balance between making it for fun, yet still interesting enough for people to be motivated to enter. Also working on format. Want to make it more freestyle than competition, which is causing problems with timings!:sad:

Start early, say 4pm, so you only have the finals after 8pm and have it all over by 8.30 so everyone can get on with the freestyle. Then have a speed prizegiving at 10pm for 10 mins.

People would come to the dance for 3 reasons;

1. To support their friends.
2. To watch the competition.
3. To dance with the competitors.

It's bound to be popular - nobody would dare put on a competing dance that day:devil: