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Minnie M
30th-September-2005, 05:15 PM
..../snip from another thread/....There is another problem on the dance scene, unfortunately, and especially when there are more girls than boys - wish there was a polite way of saying to the over enthusiastic followers - don't be so greedy and don't hog the good dancers, give the guys a chance to choose their dancing partner ocassionally :rolleyes:

In the past couple of weeks I have had a couple of PMs from personal friends apologising for not able to get a dance with me because they have not had a chance because they are in such demand. How about giving these guys a chance to choose their partner ocassionally (as quoted above) :flower:

How about asking for one dance only per evening, unless the guy requests another AND don't jump on them (not literally) on the dance floor itself .... please :flower:

clevedonboy
30th-September-2005, 05:25 PM
Quite agree - apparently there will be twice as many girls as boys at the dance I'm going to tonight & there are a number of "forceful" ladies who seem to grab all of the "best" men (or any man come to that :devil: ) - it's going to be tough on single / shy ladies tonight

Minnie M
30th-September-2005, 05:29 PM
- it's going to be tough on single / shy ladies tonight
It's not only the single or the shy who suffer, it is also the "considerate of others" also the "life partners" of these good dancers hardly get a chance with their man :what:

clevedonboy
30th-September-2005, 05:34 PM
Sorry should have said REALLY REALLY tough on those single / shy ladies as they're the ones who will get fewest dances tonight. As for life partner (nice one :flower: ), I'll make sure that she sees plenty of me (but I don't know if I qualify as a good dancer yet)

Minnie M
30th-September-2005, 05:40 PM
Sorry should have said REALLY REALLY tough on those single / shy ladies as they're the ones who will get fewest dances tonight. As for life partner (nice one :flower: ), I'll make sure that she sees plenty of me (but I don't know if I qualify as a good dancer yet)

..... if you are in demand you've got to be good in my mind. As long as a lead can dance in time to the music, I would call that a good dance :clap:

doc martin
30th-September-2005, 05:52 PM
How about giving these guys a chance to choose their partner ocassionally (as quoted above) :flower:

How about asking for one dance only per evening, unless the guy requests another AND don't jump on them (not literally) on the dance floor itself .... please :flower:
Coming back from a class last night a female friend said much the same thing. She had noticed that some of the ladies stayed out on the dance floor and intercepted the nearest passing man at the end of each song. Clearly when there are far more men than women (those awful nights when football is on especially come to mind :sad: ), if some women are getting lots of dances then many are getting very few. And it is particularly likely to be the newer dancers who miss out as they don't have the nerve to ask (and keep asking).

As a man, I have to admit that I had not noticed. At the end of a dance I am usually preoccuppied with trying to remember where I left my towel/drink.But I have to admit that I did feel a bit guilty when my friend pointed this out. I don't tend to refuse a dance unless I have a good reason, so when a lady grabs me whilst I am still on the floor, I just smile and acquiesce gracefully (about the only thing I do do gracefully, even if I can't spell it :D ).

Perhaps I shouldn't. Maybe I should say "Go back to your seat, I wan't to pick for myself". But then I thought that part of the ethos of ceroc was that anyone can ask anyone, not just the men asking the women :confused: .

I can't see any easy way out of this as the women in question are employing a strategy that works for them and there is no real social/peer pressure on them to change.

Maybe the use of dance cards, that you get filled in as the class progresses might help? It might be interesting if every person that you dance with in the class also picks a dance number for later in the freestyle. That would still leave quite a bit of space for choosing your own faviourites, but would probably spread the dances more equitably.

btw, it is pretty tough on the men too. I sat out one song last night and, at the party on Saturday, I sat out three between the end of the class and 12:30am. A good supply of T-shirts was required :)

Lynn
30th-September-2005, 06:07 PM
Perhaps I shouldn't. Maybe I should say "Go back to your seat, I wan't to pick for myself". But then I thought that part of the ethos of ceroc was that anyone can ask anyone, not just the men asking the women :confused: . I don't think Minnie was suggesting that men refuse dances, more that some of the very persistent women pace themselves a bit more to let the rest get a chance.
I can't see any easy way out of this as the women in question are employing a strategy that works for them and there is no real social/peer pressure on them to change. Its quite funny as I've only just started asking guys - until very recently I mostly waited to be asked (unless it was guys I know very well). And I felt that the social norm on the dance scene was for women to ask and that I should start. I still don't think I will get to the level of asking so often that I'm depriving anyone else. (I'm still rather shy.)

Minnie M
30th-September-2005, 06:14 PM
I don't think Minnie was suggesting that men refuse dances, more that some of the very persistent women pace themselves a bit more to let the rest get a chance.
:yeah:

....... I still don't think I will get to the level of asking so often that I'm depriving anyone else. (I'm still rather shy.)
:yeah: not in your nature to be pushy Lynn :hug:

On the rare ocassion when there are more women then men, I love it :clap: but you don't find the men 'almost' pushing others out of the way to get to their proposed dancer :mad:

doc martin
30th-September-2005, 06:16 PM
I don't think Minnie was suggesting that men refuse dances, more that some of the very persistent women pace themselves a bit more to let the rest get a chance.
I agree that was what Minnie was saying, I just don't think that the ladies would choose to do that unless it was pointed out to them what the effects of their persistence were (and would they even then?).

One way to point it out would be to refuse to be "picked up" whilst still on the floor. It probably isn't a very good way and I am not sure that I am prepared to try it, but it would be one way of making them aware of the consequences of their behaviour.

Maybe someone else can suggest a more tactful way of getting across this message? I have to say that I do quite like the idea of dance cards. An added bonus would be that it would be easier to learn peoples names (not that I ever forget the names of any of the lovely ladies that I dance with :whistle: )

doc martin
30th-September-2005, 06:17 PM
On the rare ocassion when there are more women then men

Shurley shome :hic mishtake

Lynn
30th-September-2005, 06:26 PM
One way to point it out would be to refuse to be "picked up" whilst still on the floor. It probably isn't a very good way and I am not sure that I am prepared to try it, but it would be one way of making them aware of the consequences of their behaviour. But that's one of the easiest ways to ask guys. Stopping that would leave the shy ones (like me) even less opportunity to ask guys. :tears:

doc martin
30th-September-2005, 06:30 PM
But that's one of the easiest ways to ask guys. Stopping that would leave the shy ones (like me) even less opportunity to ask guys. :tears:
Yeah, I'm sure you're right, and maybe that is why some of the women do it. Not to hog the floor, but just the least stressful way to ask. If that is the case it should be easier to point out to them that it would be nicer to only do this once or twice and then sit out a couple.

Minnie M
30th-September-2005, 06:55 PM
Shurley shome :hic mishtake
woops, did I say that :blush: obviously the other way round :blush: must save the sherry for the bedtime drink :whistle: hic

Lynn
30th-September-2005, 06:57 PM
Yeah, I'm sure you're right, and maybe that is why some of the women do it. Not to hog the floor, but just the least stressful way to ask. If that is the case it should be easier to point out to them that it would be nicer to only do this once or twice and then sit out a couple.Asking twice in a row is good progress for me anyway! Though to be fair that was at Southport and it was fairly balanced.

I can sympathise with the guys though - not being able to get off the floor - ie getting asked before you leave the floor, can be tiring. This happened to me at Southport and I didn't like to refuse any of the dances but I really wanted to go and get a drink (and in a crowd that size the 'going and finding someone later' might not work and then it would look like I had just been making an excuse.) So you guys need to get a chance to have a short break as well.

And to all the guys who often stay up on the floor dancing in order to keep the ladies happy - :hug: :flower:

Minnie M
30th-September-2005, 06:58 PM
And to all the guys who often stay up on the floor dancing in order to keep the ladies happy - :hug: :flower:
:clap: yeah ..... but which ladies :whistle:

killingtime
30th-September-2005, 07:54 PM
I can sympathise with the guys though - not being able to get off the floor - ie getting asked before you leave the floor, can be tiring.

We love it really; makes us feel in demand :D. Actually on a really busy night I plan on the fact it will take me three songs to get from where I'm standing on the dance floor to my water (maybe I should just dance closer to my table) based on being intercepted each time.

Unless I see a partner I really want to dance with I'll always aim to ask women who are sitting down under the theory that they sat out the last dance. Strangely I tend to go for women who are currently in a conversation as well... not sure if that's me just saying "no conversation allowed" or not. However when there are around 20 plus extra women I find that quite a few of them take to asking on the dance floor. At least some of them probably because it's the only way they'll beat other women who are doing the same thing.

Gadget
30th-September-2005, 09:26 PM
We love it really; makes us feel in demand :D. Actually on a really busy night I plan on the fact it will take me three songs to get from where I'm standing on the dance floor to my water (maybe I should just dance closer to my table) based on being intercepted each time.
:yeah::yeah::yeah:

I had my first experience of never asking for a dance all night a couple of weeks ago :D - (Actually I think I asked for one or two; but out of a whole night's dancing, it deserves a bit of exaduration ;)) I think that I only doubled up a couple of times; it is such a good feeling to feel wanted. :D :D {and :flower: to them all}

The only problem with being pounced on is when you have your mind set on dancing with someone else {:rolleyes: such a hardship :rofl:}. Personally, I like to use the first freestyle session to dance with as many beginners as I can, but what normally happens is that I have just managed to get accross the floor to where they sit when the next class is being called. How about having a concensus that pouncing should be limited to the second freestyle session?: they aren't going anywhere, you don't need to dance with them as soon as you see them.

filthycute
1st-October-2005, 12:52 PM
I completely agree with Minnie. I'm far too considerate which means i normally miss out on many dances with the "populars". If i know they have been dancing like 10 in a row i wouldn't go and ask them to dance. Some people think they are immortal and never need to drink/dry off/breathe!
This happens to the ladies aswell. At the scottish comp i really couldn't believe someone asking Denise to dance whilst coming off the dancefloor, after having just danced an Open final!! :eek: She accepted in sheer shock, but had to excuse herself after about 30 seconds. The guy didn't look too amused.....some people eh? :rolleyes:

Being the other half of a popular guy i would also say the most frustrating thing is trying to get home at night. If i have my coat on, packing up bags, James is drying off, getting his jacket on.....does that not mean we are going home? On numerous occassions i've been sat packed up whilst James is dancing in his outdoor trainers and jacket....just because he's so polite. Why do women do this????

I don't mind so much if he's kept busy all night, he's really good at getting in enough dances to keep me happy. Normally he'll just explain he's going to dance with me but will get back to them. :flower:

Thats my tuppence worth, like i said i don't mind him being busy....but please let him go home. :o

fc x

David Bailey
1st-October-2005, 01:11 PM
We love it really; makes us feel in demand :D.
Or, possibly, stalked.


Actually on a really busy night I plan on the fact it will take me three songs to get from where I'm standing on the dance floor to my water (maybe I should just dance closer to my table) based on being intercepted each time.
I know what you mean. In my local venue, I used to like to wander round the floor, occasionally looking at dancers, and seeing if there was someone I'd like to dance with. Now, I don't get that luxury there - if I wander, I'm pounced on.

(I know, it sounds like I'm Super Dance God, but there's no way of discussing this without sounding arrogant - if it provides any context, ESG is also pounced on, probably much more than me...)

Yes, it's great to be in demand - but I sometimes like the luxury of being able to choose dance partners, or even of being able to walk from one side of the hall to another without dancing.

And yes, that implies that the shy / sit-out ladies don't get a look in as much as the pushy ones.

The only remedy I can suggest to these ladies is to improve your dancing - dancing talent is always in demand. It's an imperfect solution, of course, as one of the best ways to improve dancing is to do lots of dancing, so there's clearly a Catch-22 factor at work.

I dunno - the only other remedy I can think of is the teacher repeatedly explaining that everyone can and should ask anyone to dance, combined with leading by example, getting the beginners dancing with them as taxi dancers do. But that's kind of what happens anyway, so that's not exactly a novel approach.


Unless I see a partner I really want to dance with I'll always aim to ask women who are sitting down under the theory that they sat out the last dance.
Interesting - to me, sitting down implies "I'm not that keen on dancing", compared to standing-on-the-edge-of-the-floor-with-feet-tapping. Unless I know them, I'm less likely to ask someone sitting down to dance.


Strangely I tend to go for women who are currently in a conversation as well... not sure if that's me just saying "no conversation allowed" or not.
No, that's just you being strange... :devil:

Saxylady
1st-October-2005, 02:14 PM
The number of times I see a guy coming off the dance floor, think about asking him and then decide not to as he looks worn out and must be gasping for a drink only to find another lady rushes across and gets him to go back on...

A phenomenon I've seen at a local dance venue is where all the best dancers are on the floor from the start and when the music stops they swap amongst each other. Very hard for shy newbies to get a look in. There must be some guerilla tactics that can be employed??

doc martin
1st-October-2005, 02:38 PM
There must be some guerilla tactics that can be employed??
Or maybe even some gorilla tactics? Try standing on the dance floor, pounding on your chest and shouting ...
"I want a dance and I want it now" :rofl:
Might work. Will definitely help cure shyness. On the other hand it may get you arrested under the prevention of terrorism act (I would be very terrorised if someone started doing this). :whistle:

Alternatively, and perhaps a little more sensibly :blush: why not walk on to the floor just as one dance is ending, with your target firmly fixed in your view, and get to them first?

killingtime
1st-October-2005, 02:41 PM
Alternatively, and perhaps a little more sensibly :blush: why not walk on to the floor just as one dance is ending, with your target firmly fixed in your view, and get to them first?

I suppose because that's resorting to the same tactics that many of the women here just mentioned they despised. It furthers this whole "get them before someone else does" and means that men are less likely to be able to get a drink and a minute or two off the dance floor.

Robin
1st-October-2005, 02:49 PM
I suppose because that's resorting to the same tactics that many of the women here just mentioned they despised. It furthers this whole "get them before someone else does" and means that men are less likely to be able to get a drink and a minute or two off the dance floor.


On that basis, should we therefore bring back the old fashioned "Dance Card" ?

Saxylady
1st-October-2005, 03:00 PM
On that basis, should we therefore bring back the old fashioned "Dance Card" ?

How old fashioned? They had them in Jane Austen's day, didn't they? Have they been used more recently?

killingtime
1st-October-2005, 03:05 PM
On that basis, should we therefore bring back the old fashioned "Dance Card" ?

I still don't quite understand the Dance Card concept. You get a card that you have to give to your partner or something to get a dancing with them?

ducasi
1st-October-2005, 03:12 PM
I still don't quite understand the Dance Card concept. You get a card that you have to give to your partner or something to get a dancing with them?
A card that you fill with a list of names of people you are going to dance with.

If you're feeling brave you let someone else fill it...

Robin
1st-October-2005, 03:32 PM
A card that you fill with a list of names of people you are going to dance with.

If you're feeling brave you let someone else fill it...


or a card that if people want to dance with you they write their name on it and you dance through in order - however it sort of falls down if the person you need to dance with next has their own dance card - they have their own list to get through .... so .... you need to give dance cards only to men or ladies... or leaders/followers. So which is it to be ?
methinks that as its the woman mostly having the problems with this that it should be the men/leaders who have to dance to a dance card. Its also a good way for those beginners who are too shy to ask to get in there too!


begs the question ... if men knew that it was a dancecarded dance for the men would they go ?

killingtime
1st-October-2005, 04:27 PM
or a card that if people want to dance with you they write their name on it and you dance through in order - however it sort of falls down if the person you need to dance with next has their own dance card - they have their own list to get through .... so .... you need to give dance cards only to men or ladies...

Would you not have scheduling conflicts if a man decides to take a break (so say a woman writes her name down on Ducasi's list at 23 and me at 24 and Ducasi decided to take a break at song 16, what happens then?). Plus I might often be going "Who's Tracey; and where do I find her for this dance?".

As to whether I would go if such as system was in place; yes though there are often people that I'd like to dance with in the night (though maybe I should take it as a hint that they don't feel the same if they don't put their name down :D) and I suppose I'd often at least like one dance with them. Furthermore if a woman turns up later that evening might she find that most guys have already been booked out?

doc martin
1st-October-2005, 04:48 PM
On that basis, should we therefore bring back the old fashioned "Dance Card" ?
I suggested this in post#6. My idea was that you could get people to sign up for a dance during the class. That way everybody would get at least as many dances as class partners. Clearly you do not dance with enough people in the class to fill your whole card, so you can then select the rest.

...however it sort of falls down if the person you need to dance with next has their own dance card - they have their own list to get through .... so .... you need to give dance cards only to men or ladies... or leaders/followers.
To my mind you have to give cards to both leaders and followers. If you only gave leaders a card, how would the followers remember which dances they had already signed up for? If you both cross sign the same number you will not get this problem.

Would you not have scheduling conflicts if a man decides to take a break
I guess you would have to make a decision beforehand as to which dances you sit out, and block those off on the card. Not an ideal solution as you don't know what the music is going to be for each number on the dance card :confused: . I suppose there would be nothing to stop you deciding to dance in one of your rest periods if you liked the music.
Also the DJ would have to announce the number before each track and then allow some time for everybody to find their partner. I can see that slowing things up and, when you don't recognise a name, I have visions of standing in the middle of the floor shouting out somebody's name at the top of my voice (and then probably finding that they are already standing next to me :D ). But it would definitely help me remember peoples names more quickly!

ducasi
1st-October-2005, 04:48 PM
... Ducasi decided to take a break at song 16 ... I'll usually take a break whenever the music dictates one. You can read that sentence in two ways, and I mean both of them. :wink:

I think the idea is that breaks from dancing have to be pre-arranged so that song #23 is the same for everyone. Either that or there would be time between songs for all dancers to take a wee break. There has to be time to get your dance card filled up anyway!

The alternative is just to be flexible. If the girl next up on your card is busy, then you skip her until she's free.

For the "Who's Tracey?" question... If she put her name down without you knowing who she is, then it's up to her to find you...

I'd go to a dance-card dance, I guess... Though I think for MJ, maybe the best way to do it would be to have an hour reserved during the normal free-for-all for dance cards. Then there would be time before-hand to fill the card up, and still plenty of time to get dances in with the people you actually want to dance with.

I'd hate to turn up though, and end up with an empty dance card... Not so much fun... :sad:

ducasi
1st-October-2005, 04:51 PM
That was killingtime, actually. :nice:

DavidY
1st-October-2005, 05:21 PM
I refer forumites who haven't seen it before to the definitive post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=15483#post15483) on dance cards...

Baruch
1st-October-2005, 05:30 PM
Don't forget the other, more sensible alternative to dance cards. If you want a break, guys, then just say so. I have no problem with doing that, and if anyone asks me to dance when I really need a drink/rest/shirt change or whatever, I just tell them why I'm not dancing and ask them to come and find me later. If they do, great, but if they don't, that's up to them.

There's no law that says you MUST dance whenever you're asked, and I'm sure most ladies would understand that you need a break now and then.

Robin
1st-October-2005, 05:30 PM
I refer forumites who haven't seen it before to the definitive post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=15483#post15483) on dance cards...

Funny usage of the word definitive and it still leaves lots to be said - but in a nutshell there are variations on a theme :whistle:

So, how many people would go ? and should the music be a "published" list on the dance card in case you want to reserve a particular track ?

DavidY
1st-October-2005, 05:35 PM
Funny usage of the word definitive and it still leaves lots to be saidYes you're right and it's not "definitive" at all. Still makes me laugh though..

David Bailey
1st-October-2005, 05:42 PM
I think dance cards are an interesting idea for MJ - but as always, the devil is in the details, and they'd require a lot of organising to do well and to avoid the obvious pitfalls as highlighted in the "definitive" post.

Dance cards worked very well, right up until, what, the 1930's? So there must be some tried-and-tested techniques; when you think about it, the social pressures and problems a century ago (making sure everyone got a dance) weren't too different from the ones today.

Also, the inner geek in me feels there's some way of simplyfying the organisation with this newfangled technology stuff - using a database, and maybe a weighted random number generator...

Robin
1st-October-2005, 05:44 PM
, and maybe a weighted random number generator...

We could just kevin to sit on it ..?

El Salsero Gringo
1st-October-2005, 05:56 PM
Also, the inner geek in me feels there's some way of simplyfying the organisation with this newfangled technology stuff - using a database, and maybe a weighted random number generator...And GPS/GSM technology to actually *find* your partner.

Robin
1st-October-2005, 07:17 PM
And GPS/GSM technology to actually *find* your partner.

Dear me - you are overlooking the obvious - Tracker !

could go for a nice big dot matrix board - just like the passport office ... " ticket number 324532 please got to desk number 197"

hehe

El Salsero Gringo
1st-October-2005, 07:21 PM
Dear me - you are overlooking the obvious - Tracker !

could go for a nice big dot matrix board - just like the passport office ... " ticket number 324532 please got to desk number 197"

heheOr a man with a microphone: "Come in, number 42 - you're time is up!"

killingtime
1st-October-2005, 07:34 PM
And GPS/GSM technology to actually *find* your partner.

You must have a big hall if 20 meter precision is enough. Unless you are making this a military operation of course. Then you've got it to 2 meters.

El Salsero Gringo
1st-October-2005, 08:11 PM
You must have a big hall if 20 meter precision is enough. Unless you are making this a military operation of course. Then you've got it to 2 meters.Naah. We're using differential GPS remember? Metre accuracy. Unless she's very thin, you ought to be able to spot here within that range.

Gadget
1st-October-2005, 08:56 PM
Dance cards - only would work IMHO if the music was all the same or pre-selected & notified... and such a waste of time filling them out, finding a partner, checking your card, checking theirs,... You could end up only having half the dances as you would normally. None of the dances would have as much dedicated focus to your partner because you would be thinking about the card, who's on it next, where to find them, ...
:sick: I just can't see the idea working at all.

The best bet I think is to let the men choose rather than pouncing on them - but then you need to be noticed by them, and that creates just as much problems as 'pouncing' does.
I don't think there is a solution except the one I proposed earlier - lay off pouncing for the first half and let the men choose, then use whatever tactics you want to get a dance in the second.
I have noticed however that it's not just a problem for the leads: there are several followers who get stalked {men get pounced, ladies get stalked :rolleyes:} and I'm sure that the same 'problems' exist for them.

Robin
1st-October-2005, 09:12 PM
The best bet I think is to let the men choose rather than pouncing on them - but then you need to be noticed by them, and that creates just as much problems as 'pouncing' does.

or you could just become a dj :wink:

David Bailey
1st-October-2005, 09:23 PM
Dance cards - only would work IMHO if the music was all the same or pre-selected & notified... and such a waste of time filling them out, finding a partner, checking your card, checking theirs,... You could end up only having half the dances as you would normally. None of the dances would have as much dedicated focus to your partner because you would be thinking about the card, who's on it next, where to find them, ...
:sick: I just can't see the idea working at all.
All valid points.

In practice, I can only see it working where you know the names of the attendees in advance - e.g. a pre-booked special, not a regular class, and maybe only as part of the evening (the "playlist" part). Even then, it'd be tricky to arrange, but not impossible.

Gadget
1st-October-2005, 09:37 PM
Submitting a request to a dancer, then they look through the dancers and fill up their card... you have a problem with clashes.
Giving a specific slot to put into a card (ie 4th song) has the 'first-come, first-served' problem.
Mutual concent has to be done well before hand - takes too much time, especialy as the cards get fuller. ("I've got the 3rd song free, you?" "na, booked. How about the 8th?")
What about refusals or 'not this dance - let's wait for a slow one'? What about tactful avoidance? What about "our song"? What about bladder release breaks? What about folk who end up with an empty card? What about a second dance with someone?

I think that the only way it could work would be (as suggested above) a pre-booked special, and the organisers make up 'lucky dip' dance cards.

Lynn
2nd-October-2005, 01:10 AM
What about refusals or 'not this dance - let's wait for a slow one'? What about tactful avoidance? What about "our song"? What about bladder release breaks? What about folk who end up with an empty card? What about a second dance with someone?:yeah: some of the reasons why I don't like the idea of dance cards. For a start you need to know people to put their name down on your card - if you are new you won't get as many dances - if you are a popular male then your card will fill up quickly. It wouldn't really improve the situation that Minnie was talking about - it would just mean that instead of not being able to get a dance because there were too many other women asking the men, it would be because his dance card was already full. The quickest still would get the dances. Unless it was men only asking - and surely if you were going to enforce that it would be much simpler to just announce it?

And I also don't like the idea that you couldn't stay up for a second dance with someone. Sometimes a dance just 'clicks' and you want another one with the same person. Much easier to stay up and have two than try to find them again later.

Not that its a problem here at the moment. We had dancing in Belfast tonight :clap: - mostly beginners (so I think I got about 2 'proper' dances all night - the rest were 'coaching') - and we had more men than women again. :grin:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-October-2005, 01:24 AM
What about folk who end up with an empty card?...and can you imagine the number of Forum rows we could have about it? Think of the thread titles:

"Help! No one wants to be on my dance card"

"Poll: What time was your dance card filled by?"

"Poll: Dance cards are evil and we should get rid of them"

"Poll: beginners should have different coloured dance cards"

"Poll: known pervs should be forced to have different coloured dance cards"

"What should I do when I can't read what's on my dance card?"

"The best way to (politely) refuse someone who wants to be on you dance card"

"First Move footwork"

and so on...

ducasi
2nd-October-2005, 01:40 AM
All the people here who are saying dance cards would never work... Did you read the rest of the thread that DavidY pointed to?

Including this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=15520#post15520)?

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-October-2005, 09:15 AM
All the people here who are saying dance cards would never work... Did you read the rest of the thread that DavidY pointed to?

Including this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=15520#post15520)?Don't get me wrong - I think it's a great idea.

CeeCee
2nd-October-2005, 10:46 AM
Planning dances in advance? Why?

What about the glance across the dance floor?
What about the fleeting eye contact with someone for the first time?
What about the unexpected opportunity to click and experience chemistry?
What about the desire to ask, be asked or walk away when you see ‘someone’ approaching?
Some of these thoughts take a second. All of this would be lost with a dance card.

The Dance Card would kill spontaneity.

Minnie M
2nd-October-2005, 10:56 AM
I refer forumites who haven't seen it before to the definitive post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=15483#post15483) on dance cards...
I think we have slightly lost the plot here ..........

I was asking for a solution, or maybe a big hint :blush: to those ladeeees who hog our men (and they know who they are :whistle: ) just to give the boys a bit of breathing space and let the less aggressive followers a bit of a lookin :flower:

It will be obvious who will be first to fill the boys Dancing Cards up :rolleyes: which really doesn't solve the problem

We could have a rule, that suggests that we let the boys get off the dance floor area before asking. Can't say how many times I have had a really great dance when the magic is just right :drool: and we both no we have GOT to have another, and one of these girlies jumps in between us and grabs my partner - poor chap he feels obliged to dance with her. I know he should be a man and say NO, but most don't :tears:


The best bet I think is to let the men choose rather than pouncing on them - but then you need to be noticed by them, and that creates just as much problems as 'pouncing' does.
I don't think there is a solution except the one I proposed earlier - lay off pouncing for the first half and let the men choose, then use whatever tactics you want to get a dance in the second.
I have noticed however that it's not just a problem for the leads: there are several followers who get stalked {men get pounced, ladies get stalked } and I'm sure that the same 'problems' exist for them.

:yeah:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-October-2005, 11:00 AM
I think we have slightly lost the plot here ..........This is the forum, and she wants plot? Hee hee hee!

We could have a rule, that suggests that we let the boys get off the dance floor area before asking.That's just going to move the problem somewhere else, isn't it Minnie? The solution is for *you* to be more agressive and hound those men too...

Minnie M
2nd-October-2005, 11:02 AM
That's just going to move the problem somewhere else, isn't it Minnie? The solution is for *you* to be more agressive and hound those men too...
You forget I'm a mouse not a man :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-October-2005, 11:03 AM
You forget I'm a mouse not a man :whistle:Then pretend there's cheese at stake.

Whitebeard
2nd-October-2005, 12:58 PM
Hearing all this has led me to pledge not to try and improve my indifferent skills. It seems the price of being a good dancer is way beyond my strength and stamina.

I'll just continue to lurk right at the far end with the other old lags and ..... No, no, no, don't even think that.

doc martin
2nd-October-2005, 01:39 PM
I think we have slightly lost the plot here ..........

I was asking for a solution, or maybe a big hint :blush: to those ladeeees who hog our men (and they know who they are :whistle: ) just to give the boys a bit of breathing space and let the less aggressive followers a bit of a lookin :flower:
Are you sure that they know who they are? They may just be thinking "I'm having a good evening... lots of dances... now who can I ask next?"

If they are not aware of the consequences of their behaviour, then it is an education problem. And possibly that is most easily dealt with by first making a request from the stage at the start of the social dancing. Something along the lines of "As usual there are far more ladies than gentlemen here tonight, so please try to remember to be fair ladies. Share and share alike. If you stay on the dance floor all the time then you are depriving other ladies of dancing opportunities. Please have a social conscience and do not hog the men"

As most people are naturally nice, that should help alleviate the problem. Obviously some will not comply/notice/care. Then, I guess, the only option is peer pressure, and I am sure there are many ways this could be applied.... :devil:

Minnie M
2nd-October-2005, 01:53 PM
Are you sure that they know who they are? They may just be thinking "I'm having a good evening... lots of dances... now who can I ask next?"

If they are not aware of the consequences of their behaviour, then it is an education problem. And possibly that is most easily dealt with by first making a request from the stage at the start of the social dancing. Something along the lines of "As usual there are far more ladies than gentlemen here tonight, so please try to remember to be fair ladies. Share and share alike. If you stay on the dance floor all the time then you are depriving other ladies of dancing opportunities. Please have a social conscience and do not hog the men"


:yeah: yep that would definitely help :flower:

MartinHarper
2nd-October-2005, 04:17 PM
Yeah, I see the occasional rockstar who's permanently booked up, and a small gaggle of groupies running after them, hoping for a chance at greatness. I find the simplest solution is to spend my time dancing with everyone else.


Dance cards - only would work IMHO if the music was all the same or pre-selected & notified...

Aye - the internet says that's how dance cards worked (http://www.mixedpickles.org/dancecards.html).

David Bailey
2nd-October-2005, 05:13 PM
I think we have slightly lost the plot here ..........
:rofl:
What, and the GPS thing was on-plot?


Can't say how many times I have had a really great dance when the magic is just right :drool: and we both no we have GOT to have another, and one of these girlies jumps in between us and grabs my partner - poor chap he feels obliged to dance with her.

I know he should be a man and say NO, but most don't :tears:
:confused: One could argue he's doing the right thing - you've already had one dance, two might be seen as, well, hogging. Or is this another goalpost-moving exercise? :innocent:

doc martin
2nd-October-2005, 05:22 PM
:confused: One could argue he's doing the right thing - you've already had one dance, two might be seen as, well, hogging. Or is this another goalpost-moving exercise? :innocent:
:rofl: Clever, but I'm sure that you know full well that MM is talking about the ladies who stay on the floor for, maybe, 10-20 dances. I was going to 10-20 dances with different partners, but I suppose that is irrelevant, as it is the number of dances not the number of partners that count.

Minnie M
2nd-October-2005, 05:35 PM
:confused: One could argue he's doing the right thing - you've already had one dance, two might be seen as, well, hogging. Or is this another goalpost-moving exercise? :innocent:
The 'second dance' is usually the better one, with whoever you are dancing with and I know a couple of dancers who always have the second dance :clap: but it doesn't reflect well with this thread (which I started :blush: ) woops :whistle: sorry will remember that next time (if I am so lucky) when there are lots of women over :innocent:


Clever, but I'm sure that you know full well that MM is talking about the ladies who stay on the floor for, maybe, 10-20 dances. I was going to 10-20 dances with different partners, but I suppose that is irrelevant, as it is the number of dances not the number of partners that count

:yeah: thanks DM :hug: and you are right

Daisy Chain
2nd-October-2005, 07:11 PM
I think we have slightly lost the plot here ..........

I was asking for a solution, or maybe a big hint :blush: to those ladeeees who hog our men (and they know who they are :whistle: ) just to give the boys a bit of breathing space and let the less aggressive followers a bit of a lookin :flower:



How about a bus stop method?

At the end of each dance, the ladies disappear behind a curtain and come out in single file to be picked up by men queueing at the other end.

There Sorted.

Daisy

(A Double Decked Little Flower)

frodo
2nd-October-2005, 07:35 PM
...A phenomenon I've seen at a local dance venue is where all the best dancers are on the floor from the start and when the music stops they swap amongst each other. Very hard for shy newbies to get a look in. There must be some guerilla tactics that can be employed??

Generally I think it is so much easier to pick up a partner if you're dancing and keep dancing ( I don't think this is limited to good dancers ).


Reckon the DJ could help alot here by putting a lengthly, say 30 second, gap in the music, every couple of songs.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-October-2005, 07:55 PM
:rofl: Clever, but I'm sure that you know full well that MM is talking about the ladies who stay on the floor for, maybe, 10-20 dances. I was going to 10-20 dances with different partners, but I suppose that is irrelevant, as it is the number of dances not the number of partners that count.When I suggested that one way to alleviate a too-crowded dance floor was for people to sit out more dances, I got bitch-slapped and told in no uncertain terms that "having paid to dance, that's what I'm bl**dy well going to do." Is this any different?

Minnie M
2nd-October-2005, 08:11 PM
When I suggested that one way to alleviate a too-crowded dance floor was for people to sit out more dances, I got bitch-slapped and told in no uncertain terms that "having paid to dance, that's what I'm bl**dy well going to do." Is this any different?
But ........... the person (or persons) who 'bitch-slapped' you may very possibly be the ones who hop from one dancer to another whilst staying on the dance floor disregarding the fact there are many ladies on the side of the dance floor looking for spare men to ask to dance :whistle:

Actually, I think I misundertood DM post, I read and answered too quickly :innocent:

David Bailey
2nd-October-2005, 08:22 PM
When I suggested that one way to alleviate a too-crowded dance floor was for people to sit out more dances, I got bitch-slapped
Yeah, but you probably deserved it for looking at girl's boobs. :innocent:

Back in the olden days of the HMS President Tea Dances (not the current run, the ones back in the 90's), they used to do a Bus-stop dance. Do they still do that there - or anywhere for that matter?

Of course, I was miserable and anti-social even back then, so I sat them out.

MartinHarper
2nd-October-2005, 08:54 PM
Reckon the DJ could help alot here by putting a lengthly, say 30 second, gap in the music, every couple of songs.

I'd rather be dancing.

Minnie M
2nd-October-2005, 08:55 PM
.....Back in the olden days of the HMS President Tea Dances (not the current run, the ones back in the 90's), they used to do a Bus-stop dance. Do they still do that there - or anywhere for that matter?

:yeah: :worthy: I remember it well, I managed to get a dance with Viktor which lasted 10 seconds but I talked about it for weeks and weeks (should say years cors I still am :rolleyes: ) - how many years ago was that David :whistle:

I introduced it once down here in Brighton, but they messed it up and have never done it again - real shame as it was a great ice breaker :worthy:

spindr
2nd-October-2005, 10:32 PM
Hmmm, surely the obvious answer is "the lady's excuse me" (the "gentleman's excuse me", and possibly more if Andy McG' is around :) ).

There's also the snowball, taxi-rank, etc., etc.
SpinDr.

Minnie M
2nd-October-2005, 10:49 PM
Hmmm, surely the obvious answer is "the lady's excuse me" (the "gentleman's excuse me", and possibly more if Andy McG' is around :) ).

There's also the snowball, taxi-rank, etc., etc.
SpinDr.

Have to say, if all the men were like Andy McG we wouldn't have this problem - he makes a point of asking (yes he does the asking) all (and I mean all) the ladies to dance, even before they get a chance to ask him in most cases :worthy:

"the lady's excuse me" is that the 'butting in thingy' when dancing :what: - if so that is almost what is happening at the moment :whistle:

David Bailey
3rd-October-2005, 08:29 AM
- how many years ago was that David :whistle:
Blimey, I dunno.

Not that long - probably around 1996-7? Something like that...

doc martin
3rd-October-2005, 07:11 PM
When I suggested that one way to alleviate a too-crowded dance floor was for people to sit out more dances, I got bitch-slapped and told in no uncertain terms that "having paid to dance, that's what I'm bl**dy well going to do." Is this any different?
I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but the floor being too crowded is a different problem to my mind.

LilyB
7th-October-2005, 10:31 PM
I completely agree with Minnie. I'm far too considerate which means i normally miss out on many dances with the "populars". If i know they have been dancing like 10 in a row i wouldn't go and ask them to dance. Some people think they are immortal and never need to drink/dry off/breathe!

- snip -

Being the other half of a popular guy i would also say the most frustrating thing is trying to get home at night. If i have my coat on, packing up bags, James is drying off, getting his jacket on.....does that not mean we are going home? On numerous occassions i've been sat packed up whilst James is dancing in his outdoor trainers and jacket....just because he's so polite. Why do women do this????

- snip -

fc x

This is one of the main reasons I have decided to cut down drastically on my social dancing.

As Minnie has so rightly pointed out, a substantial percentage of women who are not of the aggressive, inconsiderate and/or selfish nature (as some others on the MJ scene are) find it incredibly difficult to get a dance with the 'better' male dancers. It has always been my experience that I am seldom asked for a dance, except by those men who are good friends, and even they have to make a huge effort to do so:tears: .

Over the past year or so, I (like Minnie) have come to notice the increasing presence of a certain group of women who persistently hog all the better male dancers all of the time, thus giving the less pushy women little chance to 'get a look in', as Minnie puts it. I am not a pushy person by nature. I am not shy or timid - I am after all a barrister who loves nothing more than a good round of advocacy in court:D . I can be aggressive if the need arises (just ask DavidB:blush: ) and I am definitely no pushover. However, I am also an observant, considerate and polite person by nature. I will hesitate to ask a man to dance if it is obvious he needs a rest, a wipe-down or a drink, or if I had observed him dancing non-stop for the past 5-6 tracks. I will hesitate to ask a man for a dance if I see another woman hanging around him looking as if she was about to ask him - I never push in. I do not rush in to grab a man as soon as he has finished a dance with another woman, in case he wants another with her or wants to get off the floor. I do not 'hang around' near a man who is dancing (as if waiting to pounch as soon as he finishes), the very rare exception being if I had previously promised him a dance or he was a dear friend I hadn't danced with for a long time. I almost always have only one dance with my partners, unless they ask for another or they happen to be a good friend, and then it is 2 dances max. I certainly do not 'hog' or 'stalk' the men. And just for the record, I have never ever refused a request for a dance. And for the same record, I do not often ask men to dance as I have always believed that dancing is a chivalrous activity (why else should men get to do the leading?) and as such, the expectation is for the men to do the asking. I make an exception for good friends:flower: .

As a result of my personal convictions, I have found myself more often than not on the sidelines at every dance I go to. I am lucky if I get 1 dance out of every 4-5 tracks played. A good night for me would be having 15 dances over a 2.5 hour freestyle, and a third of that would usually be with David, the rest would be with male friends who make a special effort to find me for a dance. Occasionally I will ask someone if it is obvious he is available and happy to have a dance. It is fairly normal for me to get a total of 10 or less dances on a regular weekday freestyle night. As a result, I have had plenty of opportunity to observe what goes on on the dance floor. Having danced at various venues throughout London and the South, I have noticed that there is a group of women who without a doubt persistently 'hog' all the better male dancers at every venue. These women will stay on the dance floor practically 99.9% of the time and dance with all the best men there, often several times in one night. No sooner have they finished with one man than they have grabbed the next. Strangely enough, the next man is almost always one of the better men around, as is the next, and the next ...... It is not strictly true that there are never any men available to dance with. The men who are left on the sidelines are the ones these aggressive and pushy women will not ask to dance:whistle: .

I have spent many years observing other people dancing and what I have noted above is the honest truth and it is happening all too frequently now. It is putting off a lot of beginner and less-experienced women who are naturally less confident at asking men to dance. It is also putting me off going social dancing. As I said earlier, I am not shy or timid, yet I have a problem getting dances especially with men I enjoy dancing with. I am fairly well known on the MJ scene and am a fairly decent dancer - imagine what it must be like for the many shy and timid inexperienced female dancers around:mad: . I pay as much to get in as the aggressive and pushy women, yet I get less than half the dances they do. Because what they do is not forbidden anywhere, I have no right to tell them to desist. The only alternatives are: 1) become like them, 2) put up and shut up, or 3) stop going. 1) is not an option for me - no amount of dancing is worth becoming aggressive, pushy and inconsiderate for:angry: . 2) I have been doing for long enough now:sick: . So I guess it'll have to be 3). The sad thing is that if I stopped dancing, David is likely to as well. That would be a shame as he usually has a good time social dancing (he has no problems getting asked). It also means there is one less 'good' leader for other women to dance with.

Apologies if this is sounding like one huge whinge - I guess it is but I wanted to let others know who may not have noticed this problem before so that if they wanted to, they could perhaps try to do something to to enable other women in the same position as myself to have a better time when they go out dancing:flower: .

LilyB

clevedonboy
8th-October-2005, 12:16 PM
Wow Lily, great post - says it all really.

One smallish point though is that only having met you briefly at a WCS workshop in Bristol, I'd be scared stiff to ask you to dance (you are a bit better than me, that's for sure). Don't you think that other men might feel the same? It's our fault not yours by the way as we're cowards!

Clearly this has nothing to do with pushy woman syndrome but may contribute to you not getting asked.

Lynn
8th-October-2005, 12:29 PM
This is one of the main reasons I have decided to cut down drastically on my social dancing.
Sorry that this problem is causing you to lose your enjoyment of going out dancing, but its good to hear your observations - especially those watching from the side.

Clevendonboy - I'm sure many men don't ask LilyB because they are in awe of her - but I think her point is that a lot of the better dancers, who would be comfortable in asking her, aren't off the floor enough to get a chance to ask her because they are constantly being asked by the more 'agressive' women. (Is that what you meant Lily?)

Up until recently I never asked the men at all - I also am rather 'old fashioned' that way and bit shy (and also realistic in that I know there are many other better dancers they would probably prefer to dance with). I did ask some at Southport - but it was guys standing at the edge of the floor, without drinks, moving about to the music... clearly wanting to dance. Not ones who were getting a drink, coming off the floor and picking up a towel etc. And I don't think I asked anyone in the blues room, aside from a few that I would regularly dance with in there.

I do like to wait to be asked, that way I know the man wants to dance with me, rather than is just being polite. But I travel fairly long distances to dance and so don't want to spend the evening just sitting, and I'm not there with a partner to ensure I have some dances with them. So I accept that I'm going to have to ask sometimes. But hopefully I'll never become pushy or agressive.

Minnie M
8th-October-2005, 12:29 PM
Wow Lily, great post - says it all really..
:yeah: :worthy: :yeah:


One smallish point though is that only having met you briefly at a WCS workshop in Bristol, I'd be scared stiff to ask you to dance (you are a bit better than me, that's for sure). Don't you think that other men might feel the same? It's our fault not yours by the way as we're cowards......
she really is a pussy cat and will not make you feel intimidate at all and you will feel like a million dollars after :yeah:

Robin
8th-October-2005, 12:50 PM
Clevendonboy - I'm sure many men don't ask LilyB because they are in awe of her - but I think her point is that a lot of the better dancers, who would be comfortable in asking her, aren't off the floor enough to get a chance to ask her because they are constantly being asked by the more 'agressive' women. (Is that what you meant Lily?)


So therefore ... should men refuse ?... or at least those afflicted with the "aggressive" posse?

At least I have an excuse to refuse - ie djing, but sometimes it does wear a little thin :whistle:

Lily ... you're always welcome to grab me for a dance - even if I am "working" hehe

Lynn
8th-October-2005, 01:03 PM
So therefore ... should men refuse ?... or at least those afflicted with the "aggressive" posse? A better solution would be for the overly aggressive women to be less so - but then that might just allow the next lot to move up...

The best solution is probably to aim to have more even balances - maybe some women have become agressive as a way to get dances because there are more women than men? So maybe we need to persuade more men to start dancing in the first place... (I'm doing my bit - I think almost everything I have organised for MJ in NI has had more men than women :wink: )

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 01:08 PM
This is one of the main reasons I have decided to cut down drastically on my social dancing.
{ snip massive and compelling post
That's very informative, thank you.

From a man's perspective, I never really notice this sort of thing. But from a man's perspective, I never notice anything, so what's new...

However, if this behaviour by some women does result in advanced but non-pushy dancers dancing less, that's clearly a concern for me, from a selfish point-of-view.


I (like Minnie) have come to notice the increasing presence of a certain group of women who persistently hog all the better male dancers all of the time
Oh, it's the same for guys, believe me. But, this is clearly exacerbated for women because of the standard problem of not enough men.

So there are really two problems here:
- Some inconsiderate behaviour by some women
- Not enough men dancing, which makes it worse (presumably, this is less of a problem as more even-ratio venues?)


I am lucky if I get 1 dance out of every 4-5 tracks played.
:eek: Put me down as "officially gobsmacked".

LMC
8th-October-2005, 01:16 PM
The best solution is probably to aim to have more even balances - maybe some women have become aggressive as a way to get dances because there are more women than men?
:yeah:

I'm gonna put my hand up and confess here - I use a mixture of Lily's 1) and 2) - I do sometimes stay on the floor and 'grab' men before they leave - but I also sometimes sit out for 2 or 3 tracks - unless I'm asked. I'm not a good enough dancer to be highly in demand, so I feel that to practise/get better, I have to 'get out there'. I never ask for a second dance in a row because I'm not confident that I'm good enough for my partner to want one :blush: - although I love being asked to 'carry on', always makes my night :grin:

When I was at Milton Keynes a few weeks ago, I hardly asked for a dance all night - the guys were just lovely (so were the ladies I'm sure, but I didn't dance with them :rofl: ). But it seems to me that men wait to be asked at some venues - particularly some of the London ones. In which case, sometimes you *have* to be on the floor - at least the edge of it - to get a partner at all, given that there are usually more women at a venue than men.

Saxylady
8th-October-2005, 01:21 PM
I have observed the same behaviour Lily mentions, with women 'hogging' the men on the dancefloor. I'm afraid I have resorted to being a just a little bit cheeky / pushy at times, so that these guys get to realise I'm OK to dance with if they just give me a try (also I need the practice, too). Otherwise I find that, after they finally make it off the dance-floor, freshen up and have a drink, they will walk straight past me and hook back up with those same ladies all over again.

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 01:32 PM
But it seems to me that men wait to be asked at some venues - particularly some of the London ones.
Wait? Wait?? Some men, at some venues, find it hard to avoid being asked. I'm told that some men even have queues of women waiting.

I'm still thinking "dance cards" must be worth a try, for events where you know the names in advance...

LMC
8th-October-2005, 01:45 PM
Wait? Wait?? Some men, at some venues, find it hard to avoid being asked. I'm told that some men even have queues of women waiting.
You do see men standing around at the sides of the floor - and if they're not talking, towelling or holding a drink, that presumably means that they are wanting a dance :grin: - they usually say yes if you ask them. There's nothing "wrong" with most of them (although if it's someone you don't know, there is sometimes that element of doubt before you go and ask them - :rofl: ) Maybe they are queuing for the good women dancers? :whistle:

But sorry, IMO it's not *all* down to the aggressive women - guys, if you are being hogged, and don't feel comfortable with it, you can do something about it too. If guys don't *like* being hogged I can't help wondering why they aren't a little more assertive and say "Thank you for the seven dances, I've promised myself a dance with that lady" - if no-one in mind, then wave vaguely towards one side of the floor, could be any one of 47 waiting women, smile nicely at the partner-hog then go and pick a new partner - at random if necessary. It's just as selfish of you to allow yourself to be hung onto by a lady you're enjoying dancing with as it is of her to hang on to you.

EDIT: and guys, if you want to dance with your life partner, say so! - anyone who is offended by that (especially if they've already danced with you!) is most definitely in the wrong IMO. I had an awful dance with a guy a couple of weeks ago and won't ask him to dance again - he and his partner were standing (not sitting) on the side of the floor, had danced together almost exclusively that evening and were not deep in conversation. There were a LOT of extra women that night, so as they weren't talking or dancing, I went and asked him to dance. Her face was like thunder, and he looked reluctant, so I immediately backed down with "sorry, if this is one of your special tracks I'll come back later" - but he accepted ungraciously and we danced - it was MISERABLE :mad:

Saxylady
8th-October-2005, 01:54 PM
What about the old fashioned courtesy of escorting your partner back to where you found them off the dance-floor whilst thanking them for a lovely dance etc? That would give some space for other people to get a look in.

Some still do it, but in certain venues people often just turn round and grab their next partner from those on the floor already.

I wonder how much of hanging on to the same partner for several dances is the result of either laziness or insecurity (ie. fear of rejection).

LMC
8th-October-2005, 02:06 PM
What about the old fashioned courtesy of escorting your partner back to where you found them off the dance-floor whilst thanking them for a lovely dance etc? That would give some space for other people to get a look in.
Maybe this has gone 'by the board' owing to lack of time between tracks? - if a track comes up that you really love then you want to dance to as much of it as possible - at the end of a track, by the time your previous partner has escorted you to the edge of the floor and you've found a new one, you've both found some space and started dancing, the new track could well be at least a third of the way through :(

Saxylady
8th-October-2005, 02:14 PM
Sometimes, when I have been chivalrously (is that a word?) escorted off the floor, I look around and find there's no-one left to ask!

LMC
8th-October-2005, 02:19 PM
Yep, there is that too! Which I guess is why we're back to using the "if you can't beat them, join them" approach. Really glad I'm not the only one who does that on occasion! - if we've been sat out for 2 or 3 dances what other choice is there :(

killingtime
8th-October-2005, 02:25 PM
What about the old fashioned courtesy of escorting your partner back to where you found them off the dance-floor whilst thanking them for a lovely dance etc? That would give some space for other people to get a look in.

Yes! I can't believe I never even really noticed this but when I spend the time to walk with the my partner back to her seat I'd say that there is a much smaller chance that someone would come and grab me. Maybe that's a good way that the men can try and prevent pushy dancers (except for the really pushy ones) and is more polite to boot.

LMC does make a good point about possible taking up quite a bit of time of the next track though.

EDIT: Then Saxylady made the good point that, unlike the guy who there will probably be a few spare women to dance with, the woman might find it more difficult unless all the guys take to the same habit :D.

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 02:45 PM
I had an awful dance with a guy a couple of weeks ago ...
Ooh, I just bet I know who that couple is, as well.

Shame on you for not naming him... :whistle:

ducasi
8th-October-2005, 02:46 PM
What about the old fashioned courtesy of escorting your partner back to where you found them off the dance-floor whilst thanking them for a lovely dance etc? That would give some space for other people to get a look in. On a few occasions, in appropriate venues, I've danced my partner back to where I found them as the song was ending.

It made for a nice gesture, plus it meant I then had a better chance to ask her friend up next. :whistle:

MartinHarper
8th-October-2005, 03:45 PM
As I'm normally one of "The men who are left on the sidelines ... the ones these aggressive and pushy women will not ask to dance", so this doesn't apply directly to me. :)


What about the old fashioned courtesy of escorting your partner back to where you found them off the dance-floor whilst thanking them for a lovely dance etc?

I'm not sure how that would help, to be honest. If I tried it, I would be told off by those women who do not appreciate being escorted to their seat. I do not know where most of the women I dance with sit - they are often not sitting when I ask/am asked, and I have a lousy memory. Besides, it's not common etiquette within the MJ world.
Escorting has been discussed in an earlier thread on Class etiquette (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133)

----
On asking:

Suppose I'm at an MJ dance, and I see two women sitting down close to the dance floor, and I've danced with both several times over the last few months. One of these women has never asked me to dance. Maybe this is because she has "principles" and believes in "chivalry". Maybe it's because she doesn't like dancing with me, and only dances with me out of politeness. I can't tell. The other woman has asked me to dance a few times. I'm reasonably confident she likes dancing with me, because otherwise she wouldn't ask.

Like most dancers, I want to dance with people who want to dance with me, and I have no desire to inflict myself on those who would rather not. I think it's fairly obvious who I'm going to ask for a dance in that situation. Now, if I was at some venue where men ALWAYS did the asking, then it'd be different.

----
On drying off:

I try to change my top, go outside, towel myself off, on occasion. This is not because I am hydrophobic. Rather, I do it out of consideration to hydrophobic women. If I am dripping wet, and someone asks me to dance, then she must be ok with my sweat, so I'm happy to accept the kind offer.

Saxylady
8th-October-2005, 04:01 PM
On a few occasions, in appropriate venues, I've danced my partner back to where I found them as the song was ending.

It made for a nice gesture, plus it meant I then had a better chance to ask her friend up next. :whistle:

That sounds lovely. :) And just what the shy friend is waiting and hoping for.

ducasi
8th-October-2005, 04:19 PM
That sounds lovely. :) And just what the shy friend is waiting and hoping for.
Does that still sound so lovely if I finish the sentence... "to ask her friend up next before anyone else can."? :blush:

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 04:47 PM
I'm not sure how that would help, to be honest. If I tried it, I would be told off by those women who do not appreciate being escorted to their seat. I do not know where most of the women I dance with sit - they are often not sitting when I ask/am asked, and I have a lousy memory. Besides, it's not common etiquette within the MJ world.
:yeah:
Very good points, I think that's a solution looking for a problem.

As Martin points out, it's etiquette. You could say the teacher could mention this during the class, but that's not really the teacher's job, he'she has a limited amount of time, and there are lots of other etiquette-related things a teacher could / should also mention - e.g "don't dance with people if you're uncormfortable".

Saxylady
8th-October-2005, 05:20 PM
Does that still sound so lovely if I finish the sentence... "to ask her friend up next before anyone else can."? :blush:


Why didn't you ask the friend first??

ducasi
8th-October-2005, 05:57 PM
Why didn't you ask the friend first??
She had already been taken by someone else – thus I was keen to get there early for the next dance. :cunning:

I'm not saying this was always the reason I've done this, but once or twice...

Lynn
8th-October-2005, 05:58 PM
To be fair on the guys, I think a lot of them don't even notice they are 'being hogged'. I had an experience of trying to get off the dance floor at Southport to get a drink of water - after each dance I would only get a couple of steps towards the edge of the floor before someone else asked me (I'm not complaining about this btw!). I didn't have time to think much about it, just to accept and dance.

And I think part of the 'asking while on the dance floor' is simply because there are people around who are on their way back after a dance... different from targetting only the very best dancers and almost stalking them. Its the acceptable level between these two that people maybe need to sort out?

I would hate a culture to develop against two dances being acceptable - I love it when someone wants to stay up for a second dance (have never suggested it myself though).

David Bailey
8th-October-2005, 07:21 PM
And I think part of the 'asking while on the dance floor' is simply because there are people around who are on their way back after a dance...
I always find it much easier to ask someone to dance if she's just been dancing*, because:
- she clearly wants to dance
- hopefully, I'll have seen if she's a good dancer or not
- there's less far to walk to the dancefloor.

I know, men are shallow.

*Except if it's been a really long and sweat-inducing number of course.

Gadget
8th-October-2005, 08:43 PM
What about the old fashioned courtesy of escorting your partner back to where you found them off the dance-floor whilst thanking them for a lovely dance etc? That would give some space for other people to get a look in.
And miss the beginning of the next track; miss finding a space, therefore having to "make" one; and what if she dosn't want to go back to her seat?

Saxylady
9th-October-2005, 12:13 AM
And miss the beginning of the next track; miss finding a space, therefore having to "make" one; and what if she dosn't want to go back to her seat?

OK OK OK ... it was only a suggestion....:flower:

Minnie M
9th-October-2005, 03:10 AM
Yep, there is that too! Which I guess is why we're back to using the "if you can't beat them, join them" approach.........
Hmmmm..... :rolleyes:

Not sure if I could change to that sort of dancer

I suggest that if we ask a guy to dance, leave it as one dance, thus giving the rest of us a look-in. Some of these ladees are greedy as well as pushy and usually go back for second helpings:mad: This will give the guy a bit of breathing space, and if he enjoyed the dance you might get lucky and he will ask you :clap:

LMC
9th-October-2005, 01:14 PM
I suggest that if we ask a guy to dance, leave it as one dance, thus giving the rest of us a look-in.

Sorry Minnie, but I feel you're being a bit unfair just picking out that bit of what I said, when I wasn't talking about second dances, I was talking about asking men on the dance floor. I also said earlier:


I do sometimes stay on the floor and 'grab' men before they leave - but I also sometimes sit out for 2 or 3 tracks - unless I'm asked. I'm not a good enough dancer to be highly in demand, so I feel that to practise/get better, I have to 'get out there'. I never ask for a second dance in a row because I'm not confident that I'm good enough for my partner to want one
During the second half of last night, standing or sitting at the edge of the floor was hopeless - after sitting out at least 6 tracks, I went out onto the floor and 'caught' guys, with a preference for those who seemed to be milling around aimlessly than for those who were determinedly heading towards someone else or the side of the floor for a drink/break. Being on the floor meant I got asked a couple of times as well. After about 6 dances, I went to sit down again. And didn't get asked again. So I went home.

I find it interesting that everyone seems to be blaming the women still - I persist in thinking that a guy *should* notice if he has had more than 2 or 3 dances with the same woman (excluding dance or life partners, obviously :rofl: ) - especially if they are consecutive - and maybe be a bit unselfish himself and gently tell a "partner hog" that he has enjoyed dancing with her but needs to go and dance with someone else now.

ChrisA
9th-October-2005, 01:40 PM
I went out onto the floor and 'caught' guys, with a preference for those who seemed to be milling around aimlessly than for those who were determinedly heading towards someone else or the side of the floor for a drink/break. Being on the floor meant I got asked a couple of times as well. After about 6 dances, I went to sit down again. And didn't get asked again. So I went home.

I think there's an element of cutting your nose off to spite your face here... going home cos nobody's asking you to dance for a period of time is rather self-destructive.

I had exactly the same problem on Friday night - I had to practically rugby tackle some that I wanted to dance with, before they got snapped up by someone else, and if I hadn't been lurking close by towards the end of the previous track I'd have stood no chance.

It's just like that - sometimes I have to ask all the time, other times I have to hide on another continent if I want a rest.

You know my recommendations in these circumstances, so I won't bang on about them again :D

Lynn
9th-October-2005, 01:49 PM
Even though I didn't stalk, pounce or grab anyone, so hopefully was not in any way contributing to the 'over asked men' problem, I'm thinking maybe I should retreat back into my 'waiting to be asked' method.

LMC
9th-October-2005, 01:52 PM
I think there's an element of cutting your nose off to spite your face here... going home cos nobody's asking you to dance for a period of time is rather self-destructive.
It was 1.15 am (only another 45 minutes to go and I'd had a good night, thought I'd quit while I was ahead :D ).

The point I was trying to make is that if you want to be dancing, sometimes it's necessary to 'get out there' - i.e. ask men on the floor.

Even with excessive 'lurking' , I was just too polite to get a dance someone promised me last night :sad: - maybe I'll try the rugby tackle next time :wink:

EDIT: I know what you mean Lynn :( - but I keep telling myself that as long as I'm not insisting on dancing *every* track (I don't) and as long as I'm not hanging onto men (I don't) then I'm not being Evil - and I'm sure you're even less Evil than me :hug:

CeeCee
9th-October-2005, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Lily B
I have always believed that dancing is a chivalrous activity (why else should men get to do the leading?) and as such, the expectation is for the men to do the asking.

quite agree Lily, well put.


Originally posted by Martin Harper
Like most dancers, I want to dance with people who want to dance with me, and I have no desire to inflict myself on those who would rather not.

absolutely

ChrisA
9th-October-2005, 02:01 PM
It was 1.15 am (only another 45 minutes to go and I'd had a good night, thought I'd quit while I was ahead :D ).

Sorry, misunderstood. And you didn't miss much, musically speaking, in the last hour or so... :devil:


The point I was trying to make is that if you want to be dancing, sometimes it's necessary to 'get out there' - i.e. ask men on the floor.

Definitely agree.

DavidY
9th-October-2005, 02:09 PM
And you didn't miss much, musically speaking, in the last hour or so... :devil:Were you at Daventry then Chris? I thought the last hour of Rob's set included some of the best tracks.:confused:

ChrisA
9th-October-2005, 02:19 PM
Were you at Daventry then Chris? I thought the last hour of Rob's set included some of the best tracks.:confused:
No, sadly, I wasn't... I was talking about Ashtons on Friday, where it was very up-tempo most of the night, and for almost all the last hour - I thought LMC was too, since I saw her there... sorry if I've caused any confusion!! :flower:

MartinHarper
9th-October-2005, 02:39 PM
I'm thinking maybe I should retreat back into my 'waiting to be asked' method.

I suggest that if we ask a guy to dance, leave it as one dance

Well, ok, you girls will no doubt have to figure out some highly complex system for fairly sharing out the dance gods. However, this problem only applies to the dance gods and other highly desirable dancers. I do hope that, for beginners and mere mortals, y'all will carry on as normal. Or, for those women for whom asking for a dance is an uncomfortable and unwelcome reminder of what millenium it is, as close to normal as yous get.

ducasi
9th-October-2005, 02:57 PM
I find it interesting that everyone seems to be blaming the women still - I persist in thinking that a guy *should* notice ... I think it's not so much about who's fault it is (though I'm pretty sure it's the women's fault :na:,) as how it can be fixed, which I think is a shared responsibility.

First, the girls who tend to monopolise should stop to think a bit.

Also, the other ladies who want to get the dances but don't, should somehow convey this to the popular guys. (Perhaps at the beginning of the night... "Save me a couple of dances later tonight? :nice:")

The guys should make sure they are being fair, and not allowing themselves to be monopolised. (And they now have an excuse... "I promised a dance to ...")

Really, it's sort-of like an informal dance-card arrangement.

How does that sound? Maybe a bit too simplistic a solution?

LMC
9th-October-2005, 03:02 PM
I think it's not so much about who's fault it is (though I'm pretty sure it's the women's fault :na:,) as how it can be fixed, which I think is a shared responsibility.
Exactly, the 'shared responsibility' was the point I was trying to make - thanks for being more positive than I was :na:

The suggestion is similar to mine, above - if women are confident enough to "hog" someone and have had more than 2 dances with them, then surely a really nice kind "thank you, now I'm going to dance with someone else" wouldn't be *that* crushing to their egos :rolleyes:

Lynn
9th-October-2005, 05:26 PM
Well, ok, you girls will no doubt have to figure out some highly complex system for fairly sharing out the dance gods. However, this problem only applies to the dance gods and other highly desirable dancers. I do hope that, for beginners and mere mortals, y'all will carry on as normal. Or, for those women for whom asking for a dance is an uncomfortable and unwelcome reminder of what millenium it is, as close to normal as yous get.I only would ask 'mere mortals' anyway, until a short while ago I was too shy to ask at large events at all (other than maybe some forumites - like yourself :whistle: )

And for me the reluctance to ask isn't about me sitting back like a helpless female - I don't need 'rescued' by an offer to dance (mostly) - its more a case of realistic judging of ability levels. I wouldn't wait to be asked up a beginner man - I would ask them. But in general being asked for me starts the dance off from the point that this person wants to dance with me, and therefore I am more relaxed and enjoy the dance more.

Lory
9th-October-2005, 06:33 PM
I agree with everyone's sentiments :flower: but what happens, if the man in question 'wants' to have more than 1 or 2 dances with you too :confused:

The lady could be seen as 'hogging' but in reality, they're hogging eachother!

It's a difficult one :sick:

Lynn
9th-October-2005, 07:07 PM
I agree with everyone's sentiments :flower: but what happens, if the man in question 'wants' to have more than 1 or 2 dances with you too :confused:

The lady could be seen as 'hogging' but in reality, they're hogging eachother! If a guy asks me to stay up for a second dance, I would always say yes.*

*One exception was recently when it would have been my 6th dance with the same guy in less than an hour - I reckoned since I had danced 5 dances with him already he knew it wasn't that I hadn't enjoyed the dances.

LilyB
9th-October-2005, 07:10 PM
..........

Lily ... you're always welcome to grab me for a dance - even if I am "working" hehe
I shall remember that!:yum:

Minnie M
9th-October-2005, 07:19 PM
Gosh, haven't we gone round in circles :rolleyes:

IMHO if you are in the mood to dance dance dance ......... and .... there are still men off the floor, be it sitting or standing ..... Go and ask them to dance :rolleyes: that is why you are there :whistle: don't try and pounce, hog or grab the good dancers/dance gods :whistle: before they get a chance to get off the floor

I make it a mental rule, try to dance with at least one complete stranger per dance - I usually get lovely surprises :clap:

And NO, in most cases I do not blame the fellas - in general our dancing men are very considerate and do not like to say no fearing to offend. I know when I have been refused a dance (even when it is a completely genuine refusal) I still felt uncomfortable.


Sorry Minnie, but I feel you're being a bit unfair just picking out that bit of what I said, when I wasn't talking about second dances, I was talking about asking men on the dance floor. I also said earlier:
Your posts have been a little confusing - I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what is being said, not surprisingly I had taken something out of context - didn't mean to offend

Was not looking for excuses by starting this thread, was hoping for a solution - doesn't look as if there is one - unless there is such a thing as a dance lobotomy :sad:

drathzel
9th-October-2005, 07:42 PM
After reading this i am now worried if i am pushy and inconsiderate! I do tend to do all the asking, and if there is a person i have been wanting to dancing with for a while i will make a bee line towards them when they are finished dancing. But the reason for this is that i am very seldom asked to dance and like lilyb i know times where i have gone to classes and all night only had two male led dances and two dances that i have led! It make you think y do i bother. But i dont always hog the best dancers, i really enjoy dancing with beginners (i am a taxi after all) and i will dance with anyone who asks me, i just dont get asked very often (except when i am in northern ireland at a freestyle, i cant seem to get off the floor there :D )

drathzel
9th-October-2005, 07:45 PM
I make it a mental rule, try to dance with at least one complete stranger per dance - I usually get lovely surprises :clap:


I did this at southport, each night i made an effort for an hour and a half to not dance with anyone i knew or had danced with more than once. On the friday night, in this time i managed to find Dazzle and Silverfox and had fab dances! :clap:

Piglet
9th-October-2005, 08:32 PM
i am very seldom asked to dance
I find this amazing! You look like you are such a lovely dancer - if I was a decent lead (not tried it yet in freestyle) I'd be sure to ask you.

I'm happy to sit out and watch at times - especially if I've been given dance tips to help improve my "style" - I like to watch the other women for their technique. Not that I'd say I'm any good at copying, but maybe slowly I'm getting there.

I learned early on in ceroc that if you want to dance you've got to go and ask a man (and isn't it good manners to show a guy that you enjoy dancing with him enough to ask him for a dance?), so I'm happy to go after one when I want to dance. You will see me running from one side of the hall to the other to get the one I want (I have no shame :blush: ) but I also try to have a look around for the guys that weren't dancing the last track to ask them.

I find a smile and some eye contact will work - even if they are on their way to dance with another woman, it shows willingness on my part to wait for a turn dancing with them.:nice:

drathzel
9th-October-2005, 08:52 PM
I find this amazing! You look like you are such a lovely dancer - if I was a decent lead (not tried it yet in freestyle) I'd be sure to ask you.



:blush: Thank you, you would need to ask the men what i am like to dance with tho.....

I enjoy leading so if i see you soon, get me up for a dance and if you are struggling, tell me and i can take over, Swapping the lead can be lots of fun!

I have to agree with you when you say


isn't it good manners to show a guy that you enjoy dancing with him enough to ask him for a dance

This is very true indeed, and should be seen both ways! I some time dance with people and think "oh, they really didnt enjoy that" and therefore i tend to avoid asking them for another dance! And i am sure this works both ways also, i would hate for anyone to thik i really didnt enjoy a dance, there are very few i dont enjoy and thats cuz they have hurt me in some way!

:hug:

ducasi
9th-October-2005, 09:36 PM
I find this amazing! You look like you are such a lovely dancer - if I was a decent lead (not tried it yet in freestyle) I'd be sure to ask you. I think that's part of drathzel's problem... Leads who don't think they are good enough to dance with such a great dancer. :nice:

That was certainly a problem for me for a long time... I'm over that now and I'll always try to ask Danielle to dance at least once a night, if I get a chance and I can find her... :flower:

... you would need to ask the men what i am like to dance with tho..... Better that can be imagined. :drool:

Piglet
9th-October-2005, 09:47 PM
I think that's part of drathzel's problem... Leads who don't think they are good enough to dance with such a great dancer. :nice:
I've read a post (on this forum somewhere) by Bill on here saying the same thing! Isn't it odd?


[Danielle is] Better that can be imagined. :drool:
That must be pretty darned hot then in my book!

Looking forward to trying to lead her and letting her take over at the BFG!:flower: :hug:

spindr
9th-October-2005, 10:10 PM
If you sit in a corner and expect all the experienced guys are going to automatically come over and ask you -- then I really don't think that's likely??

If you want a dance ask -- you may even have to "work the room" and wander around to find someone sat out :) Yes, you may not get a "world-class" dance every time, but there are many, many surprising gems of dances to be had when you least expect them (and even unprepossessing beginners improve -- some dramatically so).

If you only turn up occasionally, then you may have to put more effort in to working the room.

One other thought is that if there are too many guys, then make a special point of asking -- some of us do remember past favours :) :)

SpinDr.

P.S. The number of dances each couple dances together is frankly their own business -- sorry 'nuff said! I'll dance one dance if I can -- I prefer two as then there's more chance to show versatility (assuming that the DJ mixes the music up) or to recover if I make a complete klutz of myself on the first one (sometimes it takes a while to "click" with a partner). And sometimes I will dance the whole evening in freestyle with a single partner.

LMC
9th-October-2005, 10:48 PM
Your posts have been a little confusing - I am not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what is being said, not surprisingly I had taken something out of context - didn't mean to offend
No problem Minnie, my posts almost certainly have been confusing because I am, as usual sitting on the fence slightly...

I remember hearing/reading somewhere about it being good etiquette to be considerate of other women at a venue and not being greedy about dances.

That made a big impression on me, but I have to confess it went against the grain, as this makes complete sense (in other words, I agree, but spindr is a braver man than I am):

... The number of dances each couple dances together is frankly their own business ...

and if I was a good enough dancer for someone I enjoyed dancing with to want to hang onto me for multiple dances, then I wouldn't say no :D

Stevenage was closed over the summer and I got used to dancing at venues where I had to "work the floor" to get dances. Unfortunately, this is not the usual way of things at Stevenage, where women tend to wait to be asked - so my 'work the floor' behaviour meant I was getting some seriously Evil Stares by the end of the first evening it re-opened :blush: (even though I was asking beginners/anyone, not just the Good Dancers, and I only had one dance in a row with any partner) Since then I've been doing some soul-searching over my "asking" behaviour which means this thread has been really interesting - thanks all. Oh, and my conscience is clear - I'll dance with anyone, but if they want more than one, they have to ask - and I do sit out sometimes :)


Was not looking for excuses by starting this thread, was hoping for a solution - doesn't look as if there is one - unless there is such a thing as a dance lobotomy :sad:
Minnie, if someone with your wide dance experience hasn't got any answers, maybe there aren't any, sorry :(

EDIT: Just realised that this may appear to directly conflict with what I said above that DJ has quoted just below :rofl: - to clarify: both men AND women should take responsibility for avoiding "partner hogging" - but only if they want to (in other words, if a guy is only continuing to dance with a woman because she asked, and would rather dance with someone else, he should say so - why should it be the woman's responsibility?)

David Bailey
9th-October-2005, 10:52 PM
I persist in thinking that a guy *should* notice if he has had more than 2 or 3 dances with the same woman (excluding dance or life partners, obviously :rofl: ) - especially if they are consecutive - and maybe be a bit unselfish himself and gently tell a "partner hog" that he has enjoyed dancing with her but needs to go and dance with someone else now.
I agree - if the scene at MJ has one defining characteristic, it's dancing with lots of different people.

I can't remember the last time I had more than two dances consecutively with someone. For me at least, 1 dance seems to be the norm; 2 dances is rare, and 3 dances is unheard of - I'd certainly be very surprised if someone wanted 3 consecutive dances with me.

(That may reflect the desire of women to run away screaming after 2 dances with me, of course.)


I think there's an element of cutting your nose off to spite your face here... going home cos nobody's asking you to dance for a period of time is rather self-destructive.
Yeah, but we all do it, don't we? Sometimes, I can get yourself into a right mood, especially watching other people enjoying themselves (the heartless s&ds) - in these cases, the best thing is often just to leave.


Really, it's sort-of like an informal dance-card arrangement.
Hold on, I'm getting a weird sense of deja vu here... :)


Minnie, if someone with your wide dance experience hasn't got any answers, maybe there aren't any, sorry :(
There are always answers - but whether any will work, that's the question.

Suggestion: for the next ticket-only event, especially an even-numbers event, how about introducing a "dance-card" half-hour?

Lynn
9th-October-2005, 10:58 PM
I agree sitting in a corner waiting to be asked is not a good idea. I had been dancing 6 weeks when I was at a London venue with a friend - who was much prettier than me (not difficult!). I got more dances - because she went and sat behind a table and I went and stood at the edge of the floor. That's fairly easy to work out. I wouldn't go and ask a guy sitting in a corner - unless I knew it was because he was feeling too shy to ask anyone.


Yes, you may not get a "world-class" dance every time, but there are many, many surprising gems of dances to be had when you least expect them (and even unprepossessing beginners improve -- some dramatically so).
And I feel there is the element of having a dance that maybe you don't enjoy yourself - because the person is at a very different level - but that they really enjoy. I've had many dances like that - where the lead is so much a better dancer than me but has really made me feel comfortable and relaxed. I would like to think that some dances I have with beginners are nice experiences for them in the same way. And there is (almost) always something enjoyable from every dance (exceptions being the painful/pervy).

ducasi
9th-October-2005, 11:04 PM
Hold on, I'm getting a weird sense of deja vu here... :) In your deja vu, do you remember we saw potential problems with dance-cards, in that they are rather formal and rigid. (Please excuse the pun!)

Make the dance-card concept totally informal and flexible and it might work better... :nice:

Gadget
9th-October-2005, 11:10 PM
I find this amazing! You look like you are such a lovely dancer - if I was a decent lead (not tried it yet in freestyle) I'd be sure to ask you.:blush: Thank you, you would need to ask the men what i am like to dance with tho.....
You would both up top on my favourite dancers list (...If I had one :innocent: ); you both like to 'play' with the music and use it to it's full. I would be surprised if the two of you don't "Click".

(Would make an...interesting... double trouble coupling. Perhaps if I'm feeling brave :what: )

drathzel
9th-October-2005, 11:16 PM
Piglet, Ducasi and Gadget.... your making me :blush: ! I love dancing FULL STOP, i will dance with anyone and i hope i dont give the impression that i would only dance with good dancer, i always state in my Taxi classes that beginners are to come and find me for a dance, this is only because i cant always find them all when i am taxi-ing!

I am looking forward to the dances Piglet and the opertunity to double trouble.... i can lead that too if anyone fancies a challenge:D !

Minnie M
9th-October-2005, 11:45 PM
......Minnie, if someone with your wide dance experience hasn't got any answers, maybe there aren't any, sorry...........
dance experience hasn't got anything to do with it ... AFAIK this is a relatively new problem, and only really happens when there are a surplus of women.

I think we need a reality TV program to show the muggle men how wonderful dance is, and it is not girly etc., maybe tonight's viewing of "Dirty Dancing" might bring a few more to the classes :clap: More men will definitely help our problem

BTW has anyone seen the calendar that Beyton created :worthy: the photos of some of our dancers are :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: (especially the very sexy one of Keith :yum: and the real cool one of Adam) and the girls don't look bad either :worthy:

killingtime
10th-October-2005, 12:01 AM
I do tend to do all the asking

You never ask me :tears:.

This thread has been really interesting though. I've decided I will try and always walk a woman back to her chair if she is heading that way (ie I won't guide her back) and see how that goes this coming Thursday where there tends to be buckets of extra women. See if other women will still grab me for the next dance or not.

MartinHarper
10th-October-2005, 12:39 AM
Here's another possible answer: organise a freestyle, perhaps with a 40s theme or something, in which women are forbidden to ask men to dance.

LilyB
10th-October-2005, 02:16 AM
If you sit in a corner and expect all the experienced guys are going to automatically come over and ask you -- then I really don't think that's likely??

If you want a dance ask -- you may even have to "work the room" and wander around to find someone sat out :) Yes, you may not get a "world-class" dance every time, but there are many, many surprising gems of dances to be had when you least expect them (and even unprepossessing beginners improve -- some dramatically so).

If you only turn up occasionally, then you may have to put more effort in to working the room.

One other thought is that if there are too many guys, then make a special point of asking -- some of us do remember past favours :) :)

SpinDr.

P.S. The number of dances each couple dances together is frankly their own business -- sorry 'nuff said! I'll dance one dance if I can -- I prefer two as then there's more chance to show versatility (assuming that the DJ mixes the music up) or to recover if I make a complete klutz of myself on the first one (sometimes it takes a while to "click" with a partner). And sometimes I will dance the whole evening in freestyle with a single partner.

I think you have not read Minnie M's original post that started this thread:


In the past couple of weeks I have had a couple of PMs from personal friends apologising for not able to get a dance with me because they have not had a chance because they are in such demand. How about giving these guys a chance to choose their partner ocassionally (as quoted above) :flower:

How about asking for one dance only per evening, unless the guy requests another AND don't jump on them (not literally) on the dance floor itself .... please :flower:

If a guy chooses to dance with one partner all night, then that is clearly his prerogative. If, however, he is asked for a second or even a third dance by a persistent woman who did the asking in the first place and he is (like most people) too nice to refuse, then I do not consider that a real choice. Neither do the many men who have told me this themselves.

SpinDr's reference to a woman who sits in a corner and expects all the experienced guys to come over etc. is clearly not what Minnie M is referring to. That is simply not something she does.

SpinDr's suggestion that if you want a dance, ask - "work the room" etc etc. is a typical reflection of someone who has failed to notice this problem that Minnie M and I have been referring to, myself at great length. It is not a simple straight-forward reluctance to ask a man for a dance that is our problem. It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men - such reluctance being our downfall:sad: . I presume SpinDr's suggestion of "working the room" is to do precisely the above.

SpinDr has suggested us women ".. wander around to find someone sat out ..etc.etc.". Wonder why he thinks it is OK for the women to do this but not the men (note the first sentence of his post)?:whistle: In any event, has he noticed how many men there are "sat out" at each freestyle night? Didn't think so.

drathzel
10th-October-2005, 09:33 AM
Here's another possible answer: organise a freestyle, perhaps with a 40s theme or something, in which women are forbidden to ask men to dance.

And thats leaves people like me where??? :tears:

Cruella
10th-October-2005, 09:45 AM
This thread has made really interesting reading. I'm now concerned though that i may be seen as one of these 'aggresive' women! I do tend to never sit down at a freestyle but that doesn't mean i'm dancing to every track, because quite often i am on the sidelines wqtching the dancers, admittedly some of the time to see who i would like to dance with. I do ask men to dance as they are walking off the dance floor! If i think they look like they need a rest, drink etc i usually say " Would you like a dance or do you need a rest?' I very rarely ask for a second dance but it would be very nice if the men asked me :tears: IMO it is curtious to ask for a second dance if the guy has originally asked you and visa versa. Don't think i've ever in 8 years had 3 in a row with the same partner!
I'm really surprised by Lily saying how few dances she gets at a freestyle:sick: She is one of the dance 'Goddesses' and as an onlooker i would presume she got asked all the time. Which just goes to show how perceptions as an onlooker can be decieving.:devil: I could presume (if i didn't know how lovely she was) that she was turning men down because she wasn't dancing. Because surely she would be asked constantly as she is so damned good. Equally these 'pushy' women look so to an onlooker, but are we all so sure that they are not just ensuring that they too aren't sitting out waiting to be asked for the majority of the night. how do we know that they don't make a beeline for some men but also spend time sitting out. Unless we actually watch the particular lady all night long, we can't be sure! I know that i'm going to be very concious next time i'm at a freestyle as to who is asking whom.:wink: Great thread Minnie :clap:

El Salsero Gringo
10th-October-2005, 09:58 AM
I suppose my assumption as a man would be that Lily's good enough to get dances with anyone she pleases, and whenever.

Therefore I would have assumed that if she's not dancing it must be because that's the way she wants it.

That would be reinforced by an observation that she doesn't ask men to dance, if I had thought about it. I don't think it would have occurred to me that she wasn't asking men to dance because she prefers to wait to be asked.

I can understand how a very select few guys might get besieged with dance requests; I don't see that it explains why someone of Lily's calibre sits out 80% of the tracks if she doesn't want to.

spindr
10th-October-2005, 11:01 AM
Feels a bit like a cross-examination -- should I replace SpinDr with "My (un)learned friend"


I think you have not read Minnie M's original post that started this thread:
I had, but I was answering some of the more later posts :)


If a guy chooses to dance with one partner all night, then that is clearly his prerogative. If, however, he is asked for a second or even a third dance by a persistent woman who did the asking in the first place and he is (like most people) too nice to refuse, then I do not consider that a real choice. Neither do the many men who have told me this themselves.
Well, first off -- *if* it's welcome'd, then it's flattering!!! And the saying goes "flattery will get you anywhere". And it's going to be self-serving in some sense -- "Hey she asked me for a second dance => she likes dancing with me => I'll probably ask her more often than someone who doesn't seem so happy to dance with me".

But frankly, unless a followers in constant demand on the dance floor -- no leader who really, really wants to dance with them will miss a chance to ask (modulo shyness, etc.).

I read the original excuse from the guy(s) as simply that -- an excuse -- albeit a nice one.


SpinDr's reference to a woman who sits in a corner and expects all the experienced guys to come over etc. is clearly not what Minnie M is referring to. That is simply not something she does.
Well, I try not to make my posts personal -- perhaps rather than using the common vernacular "If you" I should have written "If one".

And yes, I do see that the ladies "tend" to stay in the same seat / corner at most dance events -- at least that's my experience over the last 20 years. And it is helpful when I need to find someone in particular.


SpinDr's suggestion that if you want a dance, ask - "work the room" etc etc. is a typical reflection of someone who has failed to notice this problem that Minnie M and I have been referring to, myself at great length. It is not a simple straight-forward reluctance to ask a man for a dance that is our problem. It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men - such reluctance being our downfall:sad: . I presume SpinDr's suggestion of "working the room" is to do precisely the above.
No, my suggestion to "work the room" is to ask someone else -- and give them the benefit of having a dance with one :)

The discussion seemed to be based on the fact that some ladies found it difficult to get dances with the (perceived) alpha males on the dance floor -- as they were pre-empted. So, why don't they ask some of the other guys instead -- I know the guy's certainly do with the girls :devil:

And the idea I was proposing was that rather than thinking I will have a marvellous time if I dance with "X, Y and Z" -- think I'll try and dance a lot and some of them will be marvellous but I don't know which one's yet. And that works for both the guys and the gals.

And being on the dance floor puts you closer to one of the alpha dancers -- then why not? I've danced with lady's before and placed them next to dancers with a penchant for a beret several times.


SpinDr has suggested us women ".. wander around to find someone sat out ..etc.etc.". Wonder why he thinks it is OK for the women to do this but not the men (note the first sentence of his post)?:whistle: In any event, has he noticed how many men there are "sat out" at each freestyle night? Didn't think so.
Watch the guys at a freestyle -- at least the one's that don't get grabbed immediately -- thay'll be walking around checking out who's about (and asking some of them). Some of the guys may suddenly end up at the bar, or the gents, or have a chat -- but chances are that's cause the lady they were going to ask has disappeared off, etc.

Anyway, hope to drag you on to the dance floor soon -- just don't forget your shin pads.
SpinDr.

David Bailey
10th-October-2005, 11:37 AM
Watch the guys at a freestyle -- at least the one's that don't get grabbed immediately -- thay'll be walking around checking out who's about (and asking some of them).
That's almost exactly what I do.

I am picky, in that I don't choose the nearest woman to dance with - I usually prefer to see someone dance first rather than take pot luck. However, just because I haven't actively chosen someone, doesn't mean I'm unapproachable for a dance. I love being asked for a dance, and I think women should ask guys for dances. When I started, it was (hell, it still is) one of the main pleasures of the MJ scene - women ask you for dances! Wow, constant ego-boosting.

The reason Lily sits out dances is because she's chosen to not ask guys. Which is a crying shame (and it's probably one of the reasons we've never danced), but that's her choice - the MJ scene isn't oriented to "men always ask women", and I can't see that changing.

Similarly, I can totally understand a reluctance to get in with the "scrum", but I think the scrum is part of the MJ scene, and I can't see that changing either.

Lory
10th-October-2005, 11:57 AM
BTW has anyone seen the calendar that Beyton created :worthy: the photos of some of our dancers
No, although I love to. Has anyone got any details about it?


Here's another possible answer: organise a freestyle, perhaps with a 40s theme or something, in which women are forbidden to ask men to dance.
Now that's a VERY scary thought :what:




If a guy chooses to dance with one partner all night, then that is clearly his prerogative. If, however, he is asked for a second or even a third dance by a persistent woman who did the asking in the first place and he is (like most people) too nice to refuse, then I do not consider that a real choice. Neither do the many men who have told me this themselves.
:yeah: I wholeheartedly agree with this :worthy:


It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men And this.... I think is basic common curtesy!

I'm going to break the rules here and say my bit on behalf on the men:really:

...I think the good male dancers have a big price to pay for being 'good,' as everyone wants a piece of them and I can well believe that although a boost to their ego, they must at times feel out of control. :sad:

The choice to shape their evenings and 'choose' whom they dance with, is taken away from them. If they sit a few tracks out, to chat or take a breather, they're invariably going to upset 'someone,' and if they choose to dance 3 or 4 tracks with the same woman, the same again.:rolleyes:

I've been in the situation loads of times where, i've had a lovely (and know it's probably, the best I'm going to get that night) dance with a guy but I've been conscious that there will be many other women waiting and a fair few of them 'better' than me, so I bow out gracefully as it would be neither fair on 'them' or 'him':innocent: :hug:

Well done Minnie, good thread! :worthy:

LMC
10th-October-2005, 12:12 PM
It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men - such reluctance being our downfall:sad: . I presume SpinDr's suggestion of "working the room" is to do precisely the above.
It seems that there are a number of different interpretations to "working the floor/room"! - I have always seen it as just making sure I wander round the room and ask guys (instead of sitting away from the edge of the floor waiting). I agree with Lory - the above reluctance just seems like courtesy to me (certainly waiting on a few occasions for Saturday's intended victim to wipe-down/thank his partner/look in my direction so I could 'catch him' meant that I never got the dance he'd promised me - not his fault :( )


But frankly, unless a followers in constant demand on the dance floor -- no leader who really, really wants to dance with them will miss a chance to ask (modulo shyness, etc.).
:yeah: - plus, as has been said earlier, if a woman is confident enough to ask a guy for 3 or 4 dances in a row (hell, I'm not even confident enough to ask for a second yet, even if I want one!) then surely it won't be *that* crushing to her ego for a guy to say very nicely to her that he's enjoyed their dances but needs to go and dance with "x" now.

spindr
10th-October-2005, 12:37 PM
...I think the good male dancers have a big price to pay for being 'good,' as everyone wants a piece of them and I can well believe that although a boost to their ego, they must at times feel out of control. :sad:
Hmmm, everyone let's try a thought experiment -- *YOU* have danced with someone and didn't enjoy it / have had enough -- do you think you could extricate yourself gracefully? Especially if you're "familiar" with the scene.

D'you mind if I have a drink / change of shirt / ...
I've just seen XXXX and I've promised her a dance ...

I don't see why "good male dancers" should have any more problems than any other leader / follower (*)

SpinDr.

(*) Huge caveat -- went to a local event once, and surprise surprise in wanders NNNNNN (and date/partner/whatever) and their friends, etc. It was obvious that they'd just come out for a nice social night out away from the buzzing metropolis. Then, just before the DJ starts playing his set, he announces "Ladies, I see NNNNN's here tonight -- he's a really good dancer -- you should really go and grab him for a dance". My sympathy went out to them all at that point.

Piglet
10th-October-2005, 12:39 PM
You would both up top on my favourite dancers list (...If I had one :innocent: ); you both like to 'play' with the music and use it to it's full. I would be surprised if the two of you don't "Click".

(Would make an...interesting... double trouble coupling. Perhaps if I'm feeling brave :what: )
You've just made my day - to be considered in the same "ceroc box" as Danielle is a compliment indeed! I'd double trouble with you any day and if the other girl was Danielle, then I'm sure I could learn a lot from her :flower: :flower:

I am looking forward to the dances Piglet and the opertunity to double trouble.... i can lead that too if anyone fancies a challenge !
Wow! This BFG is going to be more fab than last years! I'm smiling already :D

I can't remember the last time I had more than two dances consecutively with someone. For me at least, 1 dance seems to be the norm; 2 dances is rare, and 3 dances is unheard of - I'd certainly be very surprised if someone wanted 3 consecutive dances with me.
I've often had 2 dances consecutively and don't see anything wrong with this - especially if its a busy night and its going to be difficult getting your paws (or in my case - trotters) on the lovely guy again - I even have 2 consecutive dancers with guys I don't particularly want to have 2 consec dances with. BUT, I find, if I know I don't want to have another dance with a guy, then I just get in with my thank you's at the end of the dance before he can ask again (and that can be at the end of the first one:wink: ) - there's a lot of body language that can accompany those 2 words e.g. letting go of hands, turning away slightly - it's not hard and it works! (Mind you maybe this tip should be on a different thread?)

I once had 5 consecutive dancers with a guy - he'd been away ages and I do love dancing with him - but 5!!!!! He looked disappointed when I said my "Thank you" at the end of the 5th, and I can't fathom why.... but we do have good fun when we dance with each other. I suppose you can sometimes get too much of a good thing, huh?

marty_baby
10th-October-2005, 01:01 PM
Hiya All,





SpinDr's suggestion that if you want a dance, ask - "work the room" etc etc. is a typical reflection of someone who has failed to notice this problem that Minnie M and I have been referring to, myself at great length.




I totally agree with this. To be frank, I'm horrified that Lily is even considering giving up freestyles...

When a true lady of Lily's stature pops her head above the parapet and gives her opinion on a hot topic like this, I believe for any replies, her opinion and post should be fully and carefully considered, and any replies carefully reflected on and proof read before they are posted.

This forum is a great place to converse with the great dancers we have in the country. It shouldn't be treated as a convenient place to nick pick and to throw in superficial, blantantly unthought out, antagonistic replies.

For Lily to post at 2am in the morning, means she feels really strongly about this. A little bit more respect for her and her opinions would be really nice here guys.






It is not a simple straight-forward reluctance to ask a man for a dance that is our problem. It is the reluctance to jump on a man within a nano-second of him finishing a dance with another woman, a reluctance to grab a man who has been dancing non-stop for 10 tracks, a reluctance to drag a man onto the floor when he is clearly in need of a rest/drink/wipe-down, a reluctance to 'hog' the men ie. asking for 2-3 dances in a row, 3-4 times in one night, a reluctance to 'stalk' men - such reluctance being our downfall . I presume SpinDr's suggestion of "working the room" is to do precisely the above.

SpinDr has suggested us women ".. wander around to find someone sat out ..etc.etc.". Wonder why he thinks it is OK for the women to do this but not the men (note the first sentence of his post)? In any event, has he noticed how many men there are "sat out" at each freestyle night? Didn't think so.




I believe the interpretation of this, from a bloke's point of view is:

1. Lily is highlighting the plight of the less pushy females out there. If someone like Lily has a problem getting dances with guys who can "dance", then imagine how all the other girls must be feeling!

2. How do we fix this?
* I firmly do not consider it appropriate to say to Ladies "you must dive into the bull pit with the pushy females" - not realistic, and simply not going to happen with most nice women out there.
* I haven't had the time to think of possible answers to this. I'll post some if they come to me and when I have the time.

* I believe Lily is highlighting the problems very well on this forum though. I suggest constructive, considered, posts on this issue would be good, as opposed to degenerating it down into personal attacks on people who are willing to open up on this forum.


Best wishes to all
Martin

(Oh man - I'm expecting a flurry of hate mail from this! But I felt I had to say something!)

LMC
10th-October-2005, 01:18 PM
IMO, this has generally been a very constructive and thoughtful thread. But marty_baby, I feel quite strongly that your post is actually the most inflammatory one on this thread so far.

I'm sure everyone would absolutely agree that Lily is always worth listening to and has indeed summarised the issues fantastically well. However, I can't see how any of the posts on here, even if disagreeing, could be seen as attacks on her personally.

David Bailey
10th-October-2005, 01:26 PM
I believe for any replies, her opinion and post should be fully and carefully considered, and any replies carefully reflected on and proof read before they are posted.
Hmmm. I'd say that should apply to any posts in a public forum. (Of course, that doesn't mean I take due care and attention - do what I say, not what I do)


This forum ... shouldn't be treated as a convenient place to nick pick and to throw in superficial, blantantly unthought out, antagonistic replies.
Yeah? You and whose army, huh? :mad:

Sorry, couldn't resist. The forum is what it is - a community of opinionated yet generally-courteous individuals, many of whom are involved in the MJ world as teachers or organisers. How we use it is up to us.


For Lily to post at 2am in the morning, means she feels really strongly about this. A little bit more respect for her and her opinions would be really nice here guys.
I've not seen any disrespect - disagreement, maybe, but so what? The whole point of the Forum to me is about the value of civilised debate and discussion.


1. Lily is highlighting the plight of the less pushy females out there.
To be acurate, Lily is highlighting a problem she has experienced, which some other women have agreed with to a degree. Expanding it to "this is a general problem for an entire group of people everyhwhere" is a stretch too far for me.


If someone like Lily has a problem getting dances with guys who can "dance", then imagine how all the other girls must be feeling!
Yeah... but Lily doesn't ask guys to dance. I'd expect any female dancer who didn't ask guys to dance, will not get as many dances as female dancers who did ask guys to dance.

Not exactly a stunning revelation, really, and she is (in many ways) an exceptional case.

Having said that, there's some interesting feedback from women who do ask guys, and who do get that same sort of problem to a degree. So I agree it's a good topic for debate (:worthy: Minnie).


* I firmly do not consider it appropriate to say to Ladies "you must dive into the bull pit with the pushy females" - not realistic, and simply not going to happen with most nice women out there.
It depends. Is the "problem" with the women who don't ask, or the women who do ask? And why assume that the ones who don't ask are "nice" and the others are evil pushy beyatches?

Are we suggesting that it'd be better for women never to ask men? If so, that sounds a bit like the salsa scene (at least in Central London) to me - and it's no different there, lots of women still sit out lots of dances.


* I believe Lily is highlighting the problems very well on this forum though.
I think Minnie highlighted it as a "general situation" better, as I believe she's a bit more representative in attitude of the average female MJ dancer. But they're both lovely :flower:


I suggest constructive, considered, posts on this issue would be good, as opposed to degenerating it down into personal attacks on people who are willing to open up on this forum.
I'm still lost on this - are you talking about me? SpinDr? Or what? :confused:


(Oh man - I'm expecting a flurry of hate mail from this! But I felt I had to say something!)
Nah, you want hate mail, you'll have to work harder than that.

I know - say you believe in astrology, that'll do it for me....

marty_baby
10th-October-2005, 01:27 PM
Hiya LMC,

....hhhmmmm..... I re-read all the posts twice and carefully considered my reply.... Maybe I should have chopped out the qoutes a bit more etc....

Forgive me all, if I have come across a bit abrasive - bit of a red mist situation when I read my goddess's posts being ....er.... "discussed?" ...is that the term??? !!!!!

Again - apologies to any upset parties! :blush:

I hope the positives from my post will be considered in the correct light though!

Best wishes and good Karma's to all.
Martin

LMC
10th-October-2005, 01:35 PM
Forgive me all, if I have come across a bit abrasive - bit of a red mist situation when I read my goddess's posts being ....er.... "discussed?" ...is that the term??? !!!!!
Lily is a goddess :worthy: - and DavidB is a god :worthy: as well. But I'm still an atheist :D - I'm sure Lily would agree that anything she says is just as much up for debate as the rubbish that DJ posts :devil: Of course, personal attacks are not acceptable :whistle: :innocent:


Again - apologies to any upset parties! :blush:
Not upset, just outspoken :wink:


I hope the positives from my post will be considered in the correct light though!
The point you made about Lily's feeling strongly enough about this issue to post at an ungodly hour was a good one.

Icey
10th-October-2005, 01:54 PM
After reading this i am now worried if i am pushy and inconsiderate!

I've read this thread from start to finish and I'm now very concerned that I'm considered "pushy" as I sometimes if I'm very lucky get periods where I don't come off the floor for several tracks.

When a track starts and I'm on the sidelines I will usually wait until asked and if I'm not then I'll check out the guys that are on the sidelines with me and ask one of them. There are also times where I'm grabbed by guys as I'm making my way off the dance floor. There are also other situations when I've not been able to get a dance for love nor money for quite a while.

I certainly wouldn't dream of stalking down the "dance gods" as I'm simply not good enough and I don't want to make a prat of myself. I like to keep to my own beginner level.

There seems to me to be a fine line between being assertive at getting a dance and being downright pushy. The problem is if I'm assertive about getting a dance I'm pushy, if I'm not assertive I sometimes won't get a dance for quite a number of tracks. Which do I do? I want to dance but I don't want to be pushy.

jivecat
10th-October-2005, 01:57 PM
.

Suggestion: for the next ticket-only event, especially an even-numbers event, how about introducing a "dance-card" half-hour?

I don't think it would be necessary if the numbers were even. The problem of women needing to be excessively assertive about grabbing partners is caused mainly by a short supply of men.
Well done to those organisers who have tried to find ways to even things up a little. On occasions when there is a big imbalance, perhaps it could be suggested that ladies ration themselves to dancing perhaps 70% of the tracks. With a bit of luck, they might find that 30% of the tracks were not to their taste, anyway.

I don't think dance cards would work at all in large, non-ticket freestyles, it would be a scrum and loads of good dancing time could be wasted. But they might be fun in a small, ticket-only gathering, where many people were acquainted with each other anyway.

I absolutely don't want to see a return to "chivalrous values". I think it's right that women & men should be equally free to ask and I think, especially, that women should be free to politely ask whoever they like without hard and judgemental adjectives like "pushy" and "aggressive" being used on them. It is not pushy to ask someone for a dance, it is a straightforward & assertive action and men are equally free to respond by saying "yes" or "no".

Given that there are usually more women than men at a freestyle I think that women HAVE to take personal responsibility for how much dancing they do. Realistically, if a lady refuses ever to ask a man to dance then it could be said that it has been her choice if she spends 80% of the evening sitting at the side of the room.

I can understand that some women might be reluctant to act in a way that they perceive as pushy & aggressive - but I personally don't think that working the hall, i.e. walking around the room, seeing who is available to dance, and asking them if they are not already dancing, would come under that heading.

I do think that it is a bit inconsiderate to pounce on someone who is already hot, sweaty and thirsty - but on the occasions that it's happened to me I just grab a quick swig of water and get on with the job. It is, after all a form of compliment that men generally receive far more often than women in MJ.

I completely agree with the point that if you want to be asked to dance more often, improve your dancing skills (Although this clearly is not a solution for LilyB). Sadly, one of the ways to do this is by asking good leaders to dance. If I hadn't taken the decision to do this myself, I hardly think they would have beaten a path to my door. This seems to me a catch-22 situation. If you never ask these people to dance, you'll never become good enough to dance with them. I'd only ever expect one dance every so often from an Alpha-leader, (:sick: not my phrase, someone's already used it) is that too much to ask?
Even Epsilon semi-morons are human too.

timbp
10th-October-2005, 02:49 PM
I have read this thread with interest (from Sydney where [as far as I know] we don't have this problem).

Reading the thread, I've begun to think about what my own behaviour is. And I have noticed this:

I've almost always danced 2 songs with every partner (I think that's still standard here, but it seems to be changing).
I don't go onto the dance floor without a partner (although that may be a partner who was already on the floor and asked [or agreed] by eye contact)
I don't ask for a dance until I leave the dance floor (although I might follow someone off the floor and ask the moment they cross the boundary).

However, if someone asked me to dance while I was still on the floor I would most likely accept. But if I wanted a break to drink or change shirt, I would have no qualms in saying so -- but that girl would still get the first dance after I had my break.

I'm not in the alpha dancer category, but I know from experiment I'm a desirable partner. (One night I was very tired, so I decided to only dance with people who asked me, never to ask anyone for a dance. I don't think I danced any less than usual that night.)

ChrisA
10th-October-2005, 02:56 PM
I have read this thread with interest (from Sydney where [as far as I know] we don't have this problem).
Could this be because you lot are straightforward, fair dinkum Aussies, and we are paranoid, needy, whinging Poms?

:devil:

timbp
10th-October-2005, 03:11 PM
Could this be because you lot are straightforward, fair dinkum Aussies, and we are paranoid, needy, whinging Poms?

:devil:

That's certainly the most likely explanation.

It could also be related to number of dancers (population) -- at a typical dance party I have no trouble dancing with all those I particularly want to plus a few strangers.

It could also relate to the fact that at half the venues I regularly attend there are more guys than girls. Tonight I sat out the beginners class because there were more guys sitting out than there were girls on the dance floor.


On a related matter, how are you all coping with Nessa. She's not shy about asking for a dance, nor about asking for (or simply taking) the lead.

Tim

ChrisA
10th-October-2005, 03:19 PM
It could also relate to the fact that at half the venues I regularly attend there are more guys than girls. Tonight I sat out the beginners class because there were more guys sitting out than there were girls on the dance floor.

Jeez... :really: :really: :really:

(frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)

LMC
10th-October-2005, 03:23 PM
Jeez... :really: :really: :really:

(frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)
Advertise it on here Chris - you'll probably be able to flog it for a vast profit... :whistle: :devil:

What jivecat said :worthy:

timbp
10th-October-2005, 03:23 PM
Jeez... :really: :really: :really:

(frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)
Relax. this was an unusual night. usually numbers are fairly even (but more often 1 or 2 guys over, rarely 1 or2 girls over).

And I've heard that other venues have more women.

Msfab
10th-October-2005, 03:27 PM
Could this be because you lot are straightforward, fair dinkum Aussies, and we are paranoid, needy, whinging Poms?

:devil:

Speak for yourself ChrisA!

ChrisA
10th-October-2005, 03:39 PM
Speak for yourself ChrisA!
Nope, I'm just whinging. :D

I leave paranoid and needy to others :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
10th-October-2005, 03:43 PM
Jeez... :really: :really: :really:

(frantically tries to get back on to the travel site to cancel that one-way ticket....)Carry your bags, sir?:wink:

ChrisA
10th-October-2005, 03:44 PM
Carry your bags, sir?:wink:
That one was funnier the first time - I'm still waiting for your cheque :D

Lory
10th-October-2005, 04:59 PM
Hey i've had an idea... :eek:

How about, every alternate lady through the door gets given either a red or blue badge, then, if the evening becomes terribly unbalanced, the dj could announce, for the next track, only ladies wearing red badges are allowed to 'ask' :)

Then the next track, it'd be the blue ladies chance.:clap:

The men would always be free to ask who they wanted :cheers:

Msfab
10th-October-2005, 05:05 PM
Hey i've had an idea... :eek:

How about, every alternate lady through the door gets given either a red or blue badge, then, if the evening becomes terribly unbalanced, the dj could announce, for the next track, only ladies wearing red badges are allowed to 'ask' :)

Then the next track, it'd be the blue ladies chance.:clap:

The men would always be free to ask who they wanted :cheers:


No that doesnt sound good at all!
Sods/murphies (what ever it is) law all the good tracks that i want to dance to will be playing when its not my turn! :tears:

El Salsero Gringo
10th-October-2005, 05:09 PM
Hey i've had an idea... :eek:

How about, every alternate lady through the door gets given either a red or blue badge, then, if the evening becomes terribly unbalanced, the dj could announce, for the next track, only ladies wearing red badges are allowed to 'ask' :)

Then the next track, it'd be the blue ladies chance.:clap:

The men would always be free to ask who they wanted :cheers:A bit like this solution to overcrowding (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=140114#post140114), you mean?

Saxylady
10th-October-2005, 05:21 PM
On the subject of grabbing hot sweaty guys straight off the dance-floor - I might occasionally approach a guy in this condition and say something like, "Please may I have the next dance with you after you've had a chance to refresh yourself?" That seems to work OK - just hope they don't think I'm really suggesting they're too hot and sweaty for me to fancy dancing this track with! :)

Lory
10th-October-2005, 05:26 PM
No that doesnt sound good at all!
Sods/murphies (what ever it is) law all the good tracks that i want to dance to will be playing when its not my turn! :tears:
:sick: Yeah, I never thought about that... back to the drawing board :rolleyes:

spindr
10th-October-2005, 05:34 PM
Was thinking of a similar idea to Lory's in that everyone gets a coloured / numbered ticket. You get the DJ to announce what the combinations are: e.g. partners tickets must add to a multiple of five, or ten, or be same "evenness" as their partners, or red/green and blue/yellow.

It's just a variation on the old mixer games we used to do at ballroom -- both partner's ages have to add up to under 60, or over 90, or both have to have the same coloured underwear, or heights add up in some range / weights. Never used to be taken terribly seriously, and was quite good at mixing people -- provided that they took part!

SpinDr.

Saxylady
10th-October-2005, 05:37 PM
Was thinking of a similar idea to Lory's in that everyone gets a coloured / numbered ticket. You get the DJ to announce what the combinations are: e.g. partners tickets must add to a multiple of five, or ten, or be same "evenness" as their partners, or red/green and blue/yellow.

It's just a variation on the old mixer games we used to do at ballroom -- both partner's ages have to add up to under 60, or over 90, or both have to have the same coloured underwear, or heights add up in some range / weights. Never used to be taken terribly seriously, and was quite good at mixing people -- provided that they took part!

SpinDr.

Sounds fun, but you need someone with good organising skills, don't you? Or you'd get chaos (well, you would round yer anyway).

Lynn
10th-October-2005, 05:37 PM
or both have to have the same coloured underwear :really:

So who checks this requirement? :wink: :whistle:

jivecat
10th-October-2005, 09:28 PM
It could also relate to the fact that at half the venues I regularly attend there are more guys than girls. Tonight I sat out the beginners class because there were more guys sitting out than there were girls on the dance floor.



Hmm. Perhaps I should consider emigrating. Do they still have that points system?



On a related matter, how are you all coping with Nessa. She's not shy about asking for a dance, nor about asking for (or simply taking) the lead.

Tim

Nessa's absolutely lovely, she asked me, twice.

Daisy Chain
10th-October-2005, 09:50 PM
... sometimes if I'm very lucky get periods where I don't come off the floor for several tracks.

When a track starts and I'm on the sidelines I will usually wait until asked and if I'm not then I'll check out the guys that are on the sidelines with me and ask one of them. There are also times where I'm grabbed by guys as I'm making my way off the dance floor. There are also other situations when I've not been able to get a dance for love nor money for quite a while.



:yeah:

Recently, I was monopolised by an exceptional man. After dance number 6 (not all of them consecutive), I lost count. Whilst part of me felt guilty about depriving the local regular ladies of his charms, I just couldn't turn him down. After all, I was 300 miles from home and will probably never dance with him again. But I will treasure those dances forever.

I think of that night when I'm having a "Lily Night" and it makes being a wall flower seems slightly less unbearable. This thread has been very useful and I'll vow not to take it to heart on those nights when I can't get a man for love nor money...

Daisy

(A Selfish Little Flower)

PS I'm not divulging my exceptional man's name or you'll all be stampeding after him and I won't get a look in.

Gadget
10th-October-2005, 10:54 PM
On a related matter, how are you all coping with Nessa. She's not shy about asking for a dance, nor about asking for (or simply taking) the lead.:devil: She will never be the same - we've warped her into a shy and retiring little woman who follows meakly. :rofl:

BTW, if anyone thinks twice about asking me because I look hot, sweaty, knackered and/or in need of a drink: please don't. :flower: There is no place I would rather be at that time than on the dance floor, and if you are asking, then there is no-one I would rather be there with. :waycool:

LilyB
10th-October-2005, 11:52 PM
...... I think of that night when I'm having a "Lily Night" ......


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Lou
11th-October-2005, 08:29 AM
This thread made me somewhat paranoid that I'd unwittingly become an Evil and Thoughtless Person - so I resolved to go out dancing last night & try to be more considerate towards my partners. Actually, it turned out to be like most evenings, and probably typical of the experience of the vast majority of ladies. I imagine that most of us are in the middle of the two extremes highlighted here, falling somewhere between the extremely pushy, and the reticent to ask.

The scene of my experiment was Cheltenham. Sadly, I arrived at the end of the first freestyle (mostly due to the fact that I just never can get the hang of the Cheltenham one-way system) so I only had the final freestyle to play with.

At the end of the intermediate class at this venue, it's commonplace for people to finish, instead of going into freestyle with their current partner. Which, actually, was a blessing, as I'd ended up with a "somewhat forceful" dancer. So I thanked him, and made the excuse that I needed a drink. After a couple of sips, I was pounced upon by my favourite partner & whisked off. :) At the end of the track, he asked me for another. He's a lovely dancer and very much in demand - there were other ladies jigging & waiting around, but I wasn't going to say no... :whistle: We finished the second & went our separate ways - he was quickly pounced upon. :rolleyes:

I actually asked for my next dance, as I ended up at the side of the dancefloor. He was a complete stranger - turns out he was a relatively new intermediate, but it was fun. Then, whilst leaving the floor, I was grabbed by a chap with the words "Oi! Bristol Girl! Fancy a dance?!". (I'd only met him during the class!). That was also fun.

The next track was C&W based - so it was a perfect opportunity to freshen up! And I sat out the next track too, as nobody approached me whilst I was sitting at the table. In the end, I had to stand up & wander closer to the dancefloor, where I found a dear friend, who I approached with a wicked twinkle & asked "Would you like to ask me to dance?" (Does that count as not asking a chap? ;) ). Anyway - we had a lovely dance, and I asked him for a follow on, which he obliged me with.

I'm hopeless at waiting around to be asked! So I stayed on the dancefloor & also tried The Line on a dear Forumite, who said yes. :D On leaving the dancefloor, I was again asked by that favourite dancer who happened to be passing & free. So I had a further dance with him. :blush: (Ooops - is that monopolising?) Before I could sit down again, I was then asked by a stranger, which was nice.

I then managed to reach my seat & have a drink and a gossip with a friend. :) By that time, the evening was getting on - so I sought out another Forumite & again used The Line! Because the dear chap had said he was tired, I didn't ask for another - which turned out to be the last dance. So I asked Jill for a dance (as I figured I was allowed to ask if I was the lead!).

So. There you go. Not much different than a usual night, There were 3 or 4 chaps I would've liked to have danced with, but didn't get the opportunity. At least one of them I would've had to approach myself, so I think I lost out there. :sad:

bigdjiver
11th-October-2005, 10:25 AM
I was talking to a girl who is trying to start ballroom dancing. Although she was told "No partner required", the de facto rule seems to be that if you do not bring along a man, you do not get a dance. The couples either stick together, or occasionally trade partners. I would hate to think that we could evolve from where we are now to that situation, but it is one solution.
I have seen little cliques of about 4 pairs visiting a venue, and pretty much just dancing within their group, which is a step in that direction.

Piglet
11th-October-2005, 10:32 AM
... if you do not bring along a man, you do not get a dance. The couples either stick together, or occasionally trade partners. I would hate to think that we could evolve from where we are now to that situation, but it is one solution.
I have seen little cliques of about 4 pairs visiting a venue, and pretty much just dancing within their group, which is a step in that direction.
Let's hope it doesn't go that way - one of the things so brilliant about our evenings is that you'll never get 2 that are exactly the same!

Lynn
11th-October-2005, 10:40 AM
I was talking to a girl who is trying to start ballroom dancing. Although she was told "No partner required", the de facto rule seems to be that if you do not bring along a man, you do not get a dance. The couples either stick together, or occasionally trade partners. I would hate to think that we could evolve from where we are now to that situation, but it is one solution.
I have seen little cliques of about 4 pairs visiting a venue, and pretty much just dancing within their group, which is a step in that direction.I think that would be a disaster for MJ and don't see it as a solution as women arriving without men would never get to dance.

Usually if I go dancing anywhere I have at least one man in tow. (When I started going to salsa some weeks I turned up to classes with 3 men!) But I don't invite them along to be 'my' dance partners for the evening. (In fact at Southport I think it was late on the Sat night before I had my first dance with one of the NI guys and Sunday afternoon for another.)

bigdjiver
11th-October-2005, 11:25 AM
I think that would be a disaster for MJ and don't see it as a solution as women arriving without men would never get to dance... If you don't get a dance if you do not briing a man, then you either do not go, or else you bring a man, if only to trade. Either way, the numbers even out.
I came from the end of the era of Saturday night ballroom dances where boys met girls. The dance lessons I attended were already going the partner route, with two or three singleton men rotating amongst 5 to 8 singleton ladies, and the rest of the class partnered. I think that was a disaster for ballroom. Fortunately the couples line in MJ classes I attend rarely exceeds 3.

Lynn
11th-October-2005, 11:35 AM
If you don't get a dance if you do not briing a man, then you either do not go, or else you bring a man, if only to trade. Either way, the numbers even out. Trading men... but what if my one is worth 2 of someone elses? :devil:

Balance isn't a problem here in Belfast - expect those times when we have extra men.

drathzel
11th-October-2005, 12:58 PM
I am glad we dont have the bring a partner situation. I started MJ by myself brought along two males in the following weeks, one decided it wasnt for him, and one met the girl of his dream at the class and now neither attend! If i needed a partner, i would now be scuppered!:hug:

Piglet
11th-October-2005, 03:29 PM
If i needed a partner, i would ... be scuppered!:hug:
:yeah: Although I could always dress up as a man and go as a lead ... mmmmmmmm!

drathzel
11th-October-2005, 04:17 PM
:yeah: Although I could always dress up as a man and go as a lead ... mmmmmmmm!

ah but then you dont have a woman! same problem:tears:

Gadget
11th-October-2005, 11:43 PM
:yeah: Although I could always dress up as a man and go as a lead ... mmmmmmmm!
I don't think you could get away with being a man: you may be able to lead, but even dressing up, I doubt anyone could mistake you for anything but a woman!

{erm... that was intended as a compliment :flower:}

ducasi
11th-October-2005, 11:52 PM
... I doubt anyone could mistake you for a woman! A few minutes later...
... I doubt anyone could mistake you for anything but a woman! Good edit!! :rofl:

Gadget
12th-October-2005, 12:14 AM
:blush: shhhhhh

killingtime
12th-October-2005, 10:10 AM
:blush: shhhhhh

Ducasi doesn't seem to be able to leave the forum alone but it does mean he catches all the interesting stuff :D.

Piglet
12th-October-2005, 10:25 AM
Good giggle guys! Thanks Killingtime for dragging this one to the top of my new posts lists - I knew I was looking for something.

I enjoyed reading Lou's post yesterday and decided to keep an eye on who did the asking for my dances last night. I won't be able to remember it all in the same detail as Lou :worthy: and needed the help of my trusty mobile phone to keep a log (made me wonder if that put anyone off asking me for a dance though since I was often playing with my moby!)

I asked for my first dance - but that was before the class and only one other couple was on the floor and you could have probably counted the number of dancers on 2 hands!

After class I asked for my second dance and then sat out for one record - the next record came on and I was asked to dance by my No.1!:flower: and we stayed up into the next record too - neither of us asked I don't think - we just didn't stop :D

After the Intermediate class I asked again - this time to a lovely visitor dancer and was delightfully picked up before I could leave the dancefloor by another of my favs.

Made my way back to my table and asked another guy - but he did look like he was looking for a dance -honest! Then I asked another, then another! Then I had to stalk another - yeah I have no shame - but this guy is leaving Aberdeen soon and I know I won't get a look in on Saturday night - so a girl has got to do what a girl has got to do! And I don't reckon I'm pushy :rofl: :rofl: I had to wait for 2 records before I found he was free and I ran after him before I missed my opportunity!

Then I was asked up to dance by 2 guys and then I didn't make notes anymore, but I know I stalked my fav dancer - well worth the stalking!! and I asked again a guy who I'd danced with earlier in the night because again he looked like he wanted to dance too - by this time a lot of people had left and there were only 4 couples on the dance floor.

I asked for 9 and was only asked back for 4 (but one was a stay up for the next one that neither of us asked for but were happy [well, I was ] to stay up again).

Yep, I reckon this sounds like I'm pushy. But I'm there to dance - I pay my money to dance and I learned early on - in fact we were told again and again by the taxis - that we shouldn't feel embarrassed to ask for a dance or we wouldn't get as many (or words to that affect).

I don't drag the men unwillingly to the dance floor and of all the 9 I did ask last night - I only grabbed 2 whilst on the dancefloor (and one with very good reason I think - he is my poetry dancer after all!) and one I caught at the edge of the dancefloor, but the rest were hovering or sitting!

Okay - so I'm a defensive pushy unembarrassed Aberdonian who likes to get her moneys worth! I say to all the women out there - come and join in if you want to feel satisfied. Its' great!

Minnie M
12th-October-2005, 02:26 PM
There is a ladee on the South Coast (not a forumite) who always seeks her dance partners on the dance floor and literally gets between you and your dance partner the moment the dance finishes :mad: 'almost' pushing you out of the way :angry: she does the same on the Lindy circuit too :whistle:

Lory
12th-October-2005, 03:03 PM
There is a ladee on the South Coast (not a forumite) who always seeks her dance partners on the dance floor and literally gets between you and your dance partner the moment the dance finishes :mad: 'almost' pushing you out of the way :angry: she does the same on the Lindy circuit too :whistle:
:what: my stalker hasn't moved to the southcoast has she? :devil: come to think about it, i've not seen her for a little while! :clap:

Oh and BTW I made a real effort last night, to ask only the 'leftovers' ;) :innocent:

ChrisA
12th-October-2005, 03:50 PM
who always seeks her dance partners on the dance floor and literally gets between you and your dance partner the moment the dance finishes :mad: 'almost' pushing you out of the way :angry:
If this happened to me, and it seemed as rude as you describe it, I would say to her, rather pointedly "excuse me, I haven't had a chance to thank my partner yet", and then maybe even ask her for a second dance there and then.

I think this problem, rarely though it's as bad as this, is just as much the guys' fault for allowing such rudeness to succeed as a tactic.

Come on guys, a bit more spine, methinks.:cheers:

marty_baby
12th-October-2005, 03:55 PM
If this happened to me, and it seemed as rude as you describe it, I would say to her, rather pointedly "excuse me, I haven't had a chance to thank my partner yet", and then maybe even ask her for a second dance there and then.

I think this problem, rarely though it's as bad as this, is just as much the guys' fault for allowing such rudeness to succeed as a tactic.

Come on guys, a bit more spine, methinks.:cheers:


Thats a good point Chris!
Bad people get away with things, because good people let them!

doc martin
12th-October-2005, 04:04 PM
If this happened to me, and it seemed as rude as you describe it, I would say to her, rather pointedly "excuse me, I haven't had a chance to thank my partner yet", and then maybe even ask her for a second dance there and then.

I think this problem, rarely though it's as bad as this, is just as much the guys' fault for allowing such rudeness to succeed as a tactic.

Come on guys, a bit more spine, methinks.:cheers:
I think that I would probably be so shocked :eek: it would not occur to me quickly enough to say anything but OK.

I started MJ with a non-Ceroc organisation and the teacher there warned me that this happens all the time at Ceroc social evenings. I have to say that in the 4 months I have been dancing at Ceroc venues I have never seen this sort of behaviour, no matter how many women more than men there are. In fact one of the things that strikes me is how polite everybody is about asking / accepting. Of course that may be a Scottish phenomenon. Being born and bred a Londoner I can imagine that the situation may be a little different there:whistle:

doc martin
12th-October-2005, 04:04 PM
Thats a good point Chris!
Bad people get away with things, because good people let them!
:yeah:
Just look at the people who run the country.

Whitebeard
12th-October-2005, 04:20 PM
Oh and BTW I made a real effort last night, to ask only the 'leftovers'

Thank you Lory, I feel much better now - metaphorically speaking of course ;-)

Piglet
12th-October-2005, 04:23 PM
There is a ladee on the South Coast (not a forumite) who always seeks her dance partners on the dance floor and literally gets between you and your dance partner the moment the dance finishes :mad: 'almost' pushing you out of the way :angry: she does the same on the Lindy circuit too :whistle:
Thanks for pointing this out Minnie - I'm definitely not pushy in that respect (I don't think -if I ever am someone tell me! - even the 2 guys I stalked last night I gave time to see if they had definitely finished dancing with their previous partner) - that is blinking rude!:eek: I don't think this happens (a lot?) up in Aberdeen - I shall keep an eye out (although there is one story I could tell you about a lady who was greedy - but I'm not going to post it on here - I hear the walls have ears!)

I think if I were you I'd make sure that she couldn't come between you and your partner next time - if that happened to me and naffed me off enough I would be sure to say something once riled!

Although, in that bracketed story above I wasn't terribly direct - a bit vague really, but I'm hoping that some of my point hit home :confused:

PS Need to mention in addition to my above thread - I obviously didn't get all my dances logged into my phone cos I've since remembered that I had 3 dances with one guy - and I'm pretty sure he asked me all 3 times and not consecutively - he's a lovely dancer and if he reads this then I want him to know his dances weren't "forgettable" its just the dancing was more important than the logging at some points and it also ups my being asked to a more decent number of 6! :flower:

jivecat
12th-October-2005, 08:24 PM
If this happened to me, and it seemed as rude as you describe it, I would say to her, rather pointedly "excuse me, I haven't had a chance to thank my partner yet", and then maybe even ask her for a second dance there and then.

I think this problem, rarely though it's as bad as this, is just as much the guys' fault for allowing such rudeness to succeed as a tactic.

Come on guys, a bit more spine, methinks.:cheers:

For all we know, the guys really enjoy dancing with the evil Madame Pushy.

Gadget
12th-October-2005, 08:36 PM
I think that I would probably be so shocked :eek: it would not occur to me quickly enough to say anything but OK.
:yeah:
It actually happend to me for the first time ever last night*: I had barley detached from one partner {:whistle:} when another was in their place almost before I had let go of the previous one's hand. :what:
Both partners I am familure with, and the new one did ask before actually starting to dance rather than simply presume - so there was an 'out' if I had wanted to take it.


(*Once in {cough} years is not that bad. I think that it may just have been that she finished next to me and was just in the "right place at the right time" - but it did remind me of this thread.)

jockey
12th-October-2005, 09:11 PM
I was talking to a girl who is trying to start ballroom dancing. Although she was told "No partner required", the de facto rule seems to be that if you do not bring along a man, you do not get a dance. The couples either stick together, or occasionally trade partners. I would hate to think that we could evolve from where we are now to that situation, but it is one solution.
I have seen little cliques of about 4 pairs visiting a venue, and pretty much just dancing within their group, which is a step in that direction.
Why dont you put this in the "what could kill MJ" thread?
I posted once arguing that refusals could kill the game (in a hotshot thread) and was laughed at (so to speak); i agree with you, therefore, that what you point would be a bad thing.:yeah: :clap:

jockey
12th-October-2005, 09:24 PM
Why dont you put this in the "what could kill MJ" thread?
I posted once arguing that refusals could kill the game (in a hotshot thread) and was laughed at (so to speak); i agree with you, therefore, that what you point would be a bad thing.:yeah: :clap:and it would be a shame if you had to do this to get a dance..
Do you agree that if the practice became widespread dancers who didnt bring their friends would lose out and not come again?
Im in a srange position in that my dance partner lives abroad and when she comes over we dance mostly together; I feel this is justified but a few eyebrows have been raised in the past. (It was no problem when we went to see a band recently at the Bounds Green tennis and bowls club cos all the other dancers were pretty much LINDY!) Justified cos I only see her once every 6 weeks.