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View Full Version : Does modern jive need a Simon Cowell or Gordon Ramsey ?



stewart38
30th-September-2005, 03:58 PM
Picture the sceen

You have been dancing for a year and you show your 'stuff 'in front of Simon Cowel with a partner (you can be male or female)

He saw you after 3 months, 6 months and 9 months and now after a year.

You think you have really improved and should soon be winning competitions

Should he say yes keep trying you will get there soon or

You will NEVER NEVER be a good dancer take up flower arranging . You cant move to the beat you cant lead or be lead or turn in fact why bother go away ??


You see Gordon Ramsey and he sees your not smiling and or looking at your partner should he say

F*** o** out of here and come back in 2 **** minutes with a smile on your face and look at your partner or ill put my fist down your *** kneck and up your **** ars***


or should he say your doing very well


Ie Is there enough HONESTY in Jive and enough directness at our faults/limitations

LMC
30th-September-2005, 04:09 PM
Anyone who was as rude and disrespectful to me as Simon Cowell is to wannabe singers and Gordon Ramsay is to wannabe chefs would just get told to f*** off and I'd go and ask someone who I thought would give me an opinion expressed in an adult to adult way rather than parent to naughty child.

So no, I don't believe we need a Simon Cowell or Gordon Ramsay.

Asking whether there is enough honesty in MJ is a valid question - although I can't answer that one.

El Salsero Gringo
30th-September-2005, 04:11 PM
I'd *so* love to see someone like this... as long as we have the option of telling him/her to shove it up the jacksie!

To be fair, Hannes at Nosequins was about the closest I've ever met. I kind of miss that level of bluntness.

TiggsTours
30th-September-2005, 04:17 PM
Absolutely not! Not everybody dances in order to be the best and win competitions, I'd say the vast majority do it because they love it, no other reason, and nobody should be telling anybody what they can and can't do. If people want to go into competition, fine, their placement within it will tell them how good or bad they are.

El Salsero Gringo
30th-September-2005, 04:24 PM
If people want to go into competition, fine, their placement within it will tell them how good or bad they are.Not really. It will tell them nothing more than how far they got in the competition. It doesn't tell you how that decision was made, or what your strengths and weaknesses are.

Clive Long
30th-September-2005, 04:32 PM
Simon Cowell type response: This is a stupid and unnecessary thread. :angry:

You want honest feed-back, you pay a professional teacher - they do it in private and you pick the teacher who you feel right with. A good teacher will point out your faults but not make you feel so bad about yourself that you give up. You make the decision whether the effort is worth the reward.

This Cowell / Ramsay rubbish on TV appeals to the baser instincts about seeing another person abused.

I have asked if this thread can be moved outside.

Clive

doc martin
30th-September-2005, 04:35 PM
Hannes at Nosequins

I must be slow today. I sat here for about 10 secs with pictures of people with 5 noses going through my head before I realised where I was going wrong :rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
30th-September-2005, 04:37 PM
Simon Cowell type response: This is a stupid and unnecessary thread. :angry:
...
I have asked if this thread can be moved outside.

Clive
A simple "no" would have sufficed...

stewart38
30th-September-2005, 04:39 PM
Simon Cowell type response: This is a stupid and unnecessary thread. :angry:

You want honest feed-back, you pay a professional teacher - they do it in private and you pick the teacher who you feel right with. A good teacher will point out your faults but not make you feel so bad about yourself that you give up. You make the decision whether the effort is worth the reward.

This Cowell / Ramsay rubbish on TV appeals to the baser instincts about seeing another person abused.

I have asked if this thread can be moved outside.

Clive

So you are basicallly saying no one will give you honest feed back apart from a professional paid teacher. But we cant all afford that so we live with half truths that then have to be 'hidden' upstairs :mad:

Lou
30th-September-2005, 04:40 PM
A simple "no" would have sufficed...
:rofl:

Just one point - people choose to perform in front of Simon Cowell, and they choose to cook for Gordon Ramsey. Therefore they are opening themselves up for the criticism.

So - yeah - perhaps there should be a Simon/Gordon of MJ, that people can choose to dance for, knowing that the feedback will be honest, if not tactful.

doc martin
30th-September-2005, 04:41 PM
This Cowell / Ramsay rubbish on TV appeals to the baser instincts about seeing another person abused.
Clive

I think you are right that the main interest to most viewers is seeing somebody else publicly humiliated. It does not say much for our society that such "entertainment" is so hugely popular.

On a personal note, I have decided not to eat at Gordon Ramsay's establishment because he is prepared to participate in such ritualized abuse. Since I live in Edinburgh (among other reasons) it is safe to assume that this does not mean that I will be suffering from malnutrition in the near future. :wink:

Minnie M
30th-September-2005, 04:44 PM
....... Is there enough HONESTY in Jive and enough directness at our faults/limitations
Otherwise known as "Constructive Critism" :whistle:

I'm all for it, hurts sometimes, but it does mean you can correct your bad habits !

stewart38
30th-September-2005, 04:46 PM
:rofl:

Just one point - people choose to perform in front of Simon Cowell, and they choose to cook for Gordon Ramsey. Therefore they are opening themselves up for the criticism.

So - yeah - perhaps there should be a Simon/Gordon of MJ, that people can choose to dance for, knowing that the feedback will be honest, if not tactful.


Do the people working in the kitchens get a choice I assume so

Anyway not for one moment and i suggesting we should have rude W***** such as them in Jive

The point im trying to get across is brutual honesty (adult to adult) ever justified in modern jive. Im also talking about if someone is 'moaning' that they got kicked out of comp etc

David Bailey
30th-September-2005, 04:47 PM
So you are basicallly saying no one will give you honest feed back apart from a professional paid teacher.
:confused: I think he's saying, "You get what you pay for".

If you ask a randomly-selected person at MJ "What do you think of my dancing", you're likely to get a non-professional, subjective and less-than-helpful response along the lines of "Fine".

If you want to know, really, what you're doing right and wrong, you need to pay more than £6/7 a session; you can then get more professional advice, either at a workshop or from private classes.

What's wrong with that?

Clive Long
30th-September-2005, 04:56 PM
So you are basicallly saying no one will give you honest feed back apart from a professional paid teacher. But we cant all afford that so we live with half truths that then have to be 'hidden' upstairs :mad:
OK - my last one on this - I broke my vow not to make this thread worth any more than it is

How much honesty could you take Stewart? Should we do a life review? Feeling uncomfortable are we?

Or how much honesty could I take? I'm sure if I asked for honest feedback from my friends they wouldn't know where to start.

And that feedback would be conditioned by the way they thought I should behave. They might be wrong. Or right.

If the subject is that important and you want some detachment and feed-back from someone hopefully competent, you will pay.

Blimey, I can see what Cruella means about her value placed on Landmark now!

Clive

TiggsTours
30th-September-2005, 05:04 PM
So you are basicallly saying no one will give you honest feed back apart from a professional paid teacher. But we cant all afford that so we live with half truths that then have to be 'hidden' upstairs :mad:
Why do you feel the need for someone to tell you how good or bad you are? Can't you just enjoy dancing for the fun of it? If you really like, I'll happily watch you dance, and tell you honestly exactly what I think of you, Simon Cowell style, if you really like.

stewart38
30th-September-2005, 05:09 PM
OK - my last one on this - I broke my vow not to make this thread worth any more than it is

How much honesty could you take Stewart? Should we do a life review? Feeling uncomfortable are we?

Or how much honesty could I take? I'm sure if I asked for honest feedback from my friends they wouldn't know where to start.

And that feedback would be conditioned by the way they thought I should behave. They might be wrong. Or right.

If the subject is that important and you want some detachment and feed-back from someone hopefully competent, you will pay.

Blimey, I can see what Cruella means about her value placed on Landmark now!

Clive


I think its a simple yes and no would be fine. I assume you think no

Ive said Jive doent need w***** like that so im clear that i vote no for the reasons you have made above

But if 'yes you dance nice' is all we get I want more

When people tell me I dont F*** smile or I dont F*** look at them at least i try not to forget the next time i dance to with them even if it hurts

I was 'told' by someone (see other thread) how to ask someone for a dance and how to look etc etc. I learnt more in 5 mins then previous 10yrs (wether i forget it is another matter) If i thought she was being 'rude' id tell her to p*** off and walk of

Jive Brummie
30th-September-2005, 05:16 PM
So then, getting back to the question, is there enough honesty in modern jive?

I'd say no.

Is that a good thing?

No.

Even social dancers IMO want to know if they're any good, as somewhere inside us all we have the tiniest amount of competitive spirit and like to be compared to others. Personal opinion of course :whistle:

JB.

David Franklin
30th-September-2005, 05:25 PM
Even social dancers IMO want to know if they're any good, as somewhere inside us all we have the tiniest amount of competitive spirit and like to be compared to others. Personal opinion of course :whistle: I'd disagree. Or at least, I suspect very few social dancers want to be told they're rubbish. As I've said before, probably 75% of dancers think they are in the top 25%; most would be gutted to find out the truth.

ducasi
30th-September-2005, 05:28 PM
Even social dancers IMO want to know if they're any good, as somewhere inside us all we have the tiniest amount of competitive spirit and like to be compared to others. Personal opinion of course :whistle: :yeah:

I've paid for, and received very good, useful, constructive criticism of my dancing. This was accompanied by tuition on how to correct some of the faults identified.

This was valuable. Being shouted at isn't.

Someone telling me I should just chuck it wouldn't be good for my motivation.

ducasi
30th-September-2005, 05:31 PM
I'd disagree. Or at least, I suspect very few social dancers want to be told they're rubbish. As I've said before, probably 75% of dancers think they are in the top 25%; most would be gutted to find out the truth. No-one wants to be told they're rubbish, but constructive criticism can be good.

And just so long as I'm in the top 50% (or heading towards it) I'm happy. :nice:

LMC
30th-September-2005, 08:46 PM
No-one wants to be told they're rubbish, but constructive criticism can be good.
:yeah: - always appreciated. The trick is to ask the right people and to maybe take stuff on board but not to heart... still trying to get that one down...

I get frustrated sometimes (no, really? :whistle: ) but I'm only really competing with myself.

Lynn
30th-September-2005, 08:54 PM
My reactions...

Constructive criticism from a fellow dancer - good, helpful.

Detailed feedback - esp in the context of a private lesson - excellent.

Patronising attitude (Cowell) - demotivating, rude and unhelpful.

Being sworn at (Ramsey) - I would simply walk away mid sentence.

Gadget
30th-September-2005, 09:10 PM
Honest criticism? Unless you have something obviously "wrong" with your dancing, most folk would say "yea, it was fine." : Who is watching for errors or things that could be done better while they are actually dancing? Most folk are too busy having fun and dancing themselves! Even on the sidelines, spectators are watching for 'cool' not 'critique'. If you want feedback, you have to ask someone before hand, or ask them to criticise a video of yourself dancing.

Personally, if I'm watching a friend or person I know dancing (actually very rare), if there is something I think that they could do better or something I could pass on to them, I will offer it. If someone asks me, I will give an honest opinion.
What I disslike is when a third party asks what I think on a person's dancing: I really feel bad talking about people behind their backs, so I would normally offer the same opinions to them as the person asking.

Criticism (constructive or otherwise) is only as valid as the person giving it; if you respect that person, then perhaps you should listen to them. If you have never met them, never danced with them, never seen them dance, then what they say can be taken with a pinch of salt. I have been fortunate enough to have some good criticism in the past that turned my own eye inwards {:flower:} and has made me a much better dancer for it. (see here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3116)) I would be delighted if I could pass some of that same inspiration onto someone else.

Baruch
1st-October-2005, 12:09 AM
All I can say is that I appreciate constructive criticism of my dancing, but only if it is offered by someone who knows what they're talking about. Constructive criticism, if taken on board, can only be a good thing, as it shows you which areas you need to work on.

However, the Cowell / Ramsay approach is anything but constructive. It's honest, yes, but it's also rude, offensive and totally destructive. That sort of approach would be more likely to put people off dancing altogether than to motivate them to improve. If someone spoke to me like that about my dancing, the only thing it would motivate me to do would be to smack them in the mouth. Honesty needs to be tempered with tact.

As to the question of whether there is enough honesty in modern jive, I suppose it depends on context. For example, often when I ask a first-timer to dance, I may get a response something like, "OK, but I'm rubbish" or they may apologise afterwards for being such a bad dancer. Totally, brutally honest feedback such as "You pulled back too hard, didn't follow my lead and your spins were all over the place" would be very inappropriate, and I try to look for positive things in the dance to comment on. Is this being dishonest? I don't believe so. I think it's being encouraging. Nobody is a great dancer when they start out, although the potential may be there, and it's certainly possible to really enjoy a dance with them.

However, if a long-term dancer who I know asks me for feedback after a dance, I will give it honestly, both positive and negative, but only on things about which I feel I'm competent to comment. For detailed analysis of dance style, areas to improve etc, I'd direct people towards a dance teacher, who should be a bit more knowledgeable in those areas than I am.

MartinHarper
1st-October-2005, 10:44 AM
I like honesty. Normally I'm more interested in learning how I can become better, rather than learning how good I currently am. The exception is when I'm deciding what class to do. If some class is too hard for me, I'd like to know in advance, rather than wasting time and getting in the way.
For example, a while back I booked at Jumping at the Woodside through TRDC. When I booked, they asked what dancing level I was booking for. To me, this was the wrong way round: they should know how well I dance, and sign me up for the appropriate level of classes on that basis.

robd
1st-October-2005, 12:05 PM
I think there's a need to separate out feedback on style and the aesthetic appeal of the dance from that of technique as I think the latter is very hard to do unless you are the one leading/being led. Also, and I don't know if this holds true elsewhere but two of the people generally regarded as the best leaders at my regular venue are not, again IMO, among the most stylish dancers there.

I know it's been covered before but it was an eye opener to me how shocking most MJ dancers look like when watching from the sidelines. Yet those people are all enjoying themselves within their dance and as they can't see themselves probably don't give care how those on the sidelines view them.

And, no, I don't think I will look any better, I think I would be horrified to see a video of myself dancing, scuttling around in circles with my partner like a pair of interlocked crabs but having realised that the world will not end if I do sit out a dance or two during an evening I have had more opportunity to watch what happens on the floor and, more often than not, it ain't pretty. I even refused my first dance last night - but I am no hotshot, I just wanted to avoid the Crazy Frog song that was playing. I sat with the lady who had asked me and it was quite interesting as she pointed out various leaders and their strengths from her P.O.V before we took to the floor as a less annoying song came on.

Robert

Dreadful Scathe
1st-October-2005, 01:11 PM
However, the Cowell / Ramsay approach is anything but constructive. It's honest, yes, but it's also rude, offensive and totally destructive. That sort of approach would be more likely to put people off dancing altogether than to motivate them to improve. If someone spoke to me like that about my dancing, the only thing it would motivate me to do would be to smack them in the mouth. Honesty needs to be tempered with tact.

Simon Cowell is brutaly honest but it comes after people have decided THEMSELVES that they are the next best singer since (insert favourite pop star here). Someone has to tell them how deluded they are and he does an admirable job of it. In the x-factor its Louise who is the rude one, sometimes for no reason.

I think there is a need for this sort of brutal honesty in modern jive IF people ask for it - but they may not like what they get. Most people just want to get on and dance though and dont care about this sort of thing and it should not come unasked for - theres a big difference between a polite tip and the Simon Cowell level of brutal honesty.

bigdjiver
1st-October-2005, 01:41 PM
I have an imaginary clip in my head of Simon Cowell giving his verdict on (when still unknown) Bob Dylan.

Gordon Ramsey I only see on click through, and only just long enough to recognise.

The only time I would use negative brutal truth is where danger (physical, emotional or financial) is involved.

I do not see any value in telling people that they have a problem if I cannot suggest a way of fixing it.

Baruch
1st-October-2005, 05:05 PM
I think there is a need for this sort of brutal honesty in modern jive IF people ask for it - but they may not like what they get.
I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree. Yes, there's a need for honesty, but it needs top be constructive, not destructive. IMO it should be more along the lines of "This was wrong, this is what you need to work on to improve" rather than the Cowell-style "That was absolutely pathetic. Give up dancing and find an easier hobby."

Plain, unadulterated honesty is fine, as long as it is given in the context of wanting to help someone to improve. Otherwise it does more harm than good.