Improving - a double-edged sword?

[Feelingpink]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.

Somewhere in the past month, I've had what feels like some of the best dances of my life (for various reasons - ability to lead, playing, dreamy blues etc to great music) and yet somehow in a very, very selfish way, I want them to continue on a regular basis - I'd like my 'fix' of dream dances and it's getting more and more difficult to get. In short, I've been spoilt.

I've thought of getting a regular partner as a way of being happy with different things in dance, but these seem few and far between ... or perhaps I just need to go into rehab/cold turkey for a while? It's not that I don't enjoy anything about other dances - I do indeed love MJ - but it doesn't seem to be enough at the moment.

Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?

[azande]

~snip~

:yeah: but consider that if we had those dances all the time they would not be special anymore (IMHO)

[Gojive]

Hi FP,

If you give up MJ you'll never know if an even better dance experience/partner was just around the next corner :)

If it's challenging you're really craving, why not broaden your skills and try something like Lindy, WCS, Rock 'N' Roll, Ballroom, etc? :)

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances. As far as I can see, the only way to go is to work on getting more pleasure out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket leaders. Otherwise, yes, you're going to improve yourself into a corner and have to give up.

[Mostlysane]

FP,

I feel the same way sometimes. I guess most people do. You feel like you've not had a decent dance, or your not improving or what ever. I guess there's plenty of different reasons people go through that.

A teacher did tell me once that you get to a point where the only way to improve is to get a regular dance partner. I don't know how true that is, but things are definitely seem smoother when dancing with friends i dance with on a regular basis.

If you're feeling stale, try changing things, a different venue. I've just started going to the Ceroc Oxford Tuesday night in Abingdon and it's great to find different people to dance with, a different style of teaching, that sort of thing.

Maybe mix in a bit of a different dance style, like was said earlier.

Don't give up though. For me i find it seems to go in cycles. I get bored/frustrated for a while and dont enjoy it so much then for some reason i go to a venue and have a great night and that's it, i'm off and running again.

[Lory]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.

Somewhere in the past month, I've had what feels like some of the best dances of my life (for various reasons - ability to lead, playing, dreamy blues etc to great music) and yet somehow in a very, very selfish way, I want them to continue on a regular basis - I'd like my 'fix' of dream dances and it's getting more and more difficult to get. In short, I've been spoilt.

I've thought of getting a regular partner as a way of being happy with different things in dance, but these seem few and far between ... or perhaps I just need to go into rehab/cold turkey for a while? It's not that I don't enjoy anything about other dances - I do indeed love MJ - but it doesn't seem to be enough at the moment.

Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?I think your suffering a from a little bit of PWB's - Post Weekender Blues :hug: (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4180&highlight=post+weekender+blues)

I always feel a bit down after reaching such highs... :sad:

I have to say, since recently acquiring a lovely dance partner, I've not suffered half so badly as usual... :clap:

Taking up ballroom has given me something else to focus on, all the new learning, footwork, different styles, music to get to grips with and the practice, has been focused in this area and the MJ has been where we've been able to switch off, purely relax and NOT think and that's a relief in its self! (although Kev might say, I 'switch off' a bit TOO much! :blush: :rofl: )

I'd recommend this as an option if you can find one! :o

[Lynn]

I still have a very long way to go on my dance journey, but with no classes here (yet!), I do feel that not dancing every week has its advantages. I have more experience than any of the leads here, I am never led in a move I don't know and there are a limited range of moves that the guys here know (because of lack of opportunity to learn). And a limited range of leads I can dance with here (about 10 or a dozen). So while I do enjoy dancing with them, its never the same sort of experience as dancing with some of the fantastic leads eg on a weekender. And this feeling does increase the more I go away and dance, improve a little, then return to dancing here. I find what helps is - OK they might not do anything I don't expect, it may be the same series of moves, so I try to do something they don't expect, eg a double spin. That makes the dance more enjoyable for them, and therefore I enjoy the fact that they are enjoying it. If that makes sense.

And I can recommend the 'taking a break' option.

[TiggsTours]

I think everyone I know, including myself, has felt that way at one point or another. What you need to ask yourself is, why did you start dancing in the first place? Was it so you could be the best? So you could win competitions? or was it because it was fun, a good way to stay fit and to meet people? If this is the case, concentrate on that again!

As for feeling challenged, if you're not getting this from MJ anymore, why not try a new dance style? Go back to basics with a brand new style, you'll soon meet lots more people, and feel challenged enough. You don't have to give up MJ, you could use these new found skills and find a way of introducing it to your MJ, another way to make that feel more challenging again.

[Clive Long]

You got me thinking (as always). I break my one-a-day target for you.

I'm in a different "head-state" to you. I have danced a long time - I have a limited repertoire of moves - I am learning now some very basic elements about contact with my partner (how hard is it to smile? ). So I still have much to learn and internalise in MJ to "deliver" a stylish and interesting dance with (I wrote to - but that shows the flaw in my thinking) the better women dancers I meet.

I am trying other dance forms, such as my much-talked-about-but-infrequently-acted-upon attempts at proper Tango. However, my concern is that pursuit of technical proficiency in my dance will diminish my enjoyment because I become more self-aware of my movement and more self-critical. However, there is no option to this route unless I just remain satisfied with where I am and what I am achieving. Becoming hyper-critical and not accepting the gap between what I would like to achieve and where I am is a sign of immaturity on my part.

I will always come back to MJ because the social dimension is so important to me.

Clive

[Little Monkey]

As far as I can see, the only way to go is to work on getting more pleasure out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket leaders.

Ummmm..... How do you suggest doing this??

At my regular venue, there are about.... Ooooh..... Maybe a dozen dancers I really like dancing with. And a few others that are lovely dancers, who I dance with regularly, and are pleasant to dance with. Obviously they're not there every night, so some nights there are only a handful (if that!) dancers I actually enjoy dancing with. I do dance with other people, too, from the complete beginners to the teachers, but do not always get a lot of enjoyment from every dance. There are nights where I just think 'why did I bother coming', which really sounds bad. I do try to dance with a variety of partners, and I do smile and try to 'engage' with my partner when I dance, but..... Not always successful.

Sometimes there are complete beginners that are really fun to dance with, as you can see the potential. I love moments like this.

I have started learning Argentine tango to get a bit more variation, and I'd love to do WCS etc, but it doesn't seem to help me being a bit 'bored' with MJ at times. A change of venue might help, but limited time, no car etc makes this difficult.

So, Great Ass - how does one 'work on getting more pleasure out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket leaders'???

LM :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

So, Great Ass - how does one 'work on getting more pleasure out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket leaders'???

LM :flower:Dunno. I'm still working on getting even more fun out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket followers. When I have it totally sussed, I can drop you a PM.

[Aleks]

:yeah: but consider that if we had those dances all the time they would not be special anymore (IMHO)

Please remember your own words of wisdom......

[bigdjiver]

I continue to get my pleasure second-hand, from dancing with beginners and getting an "Ooo - that was good. ... I haven't done that before."

And from trying to invent something new, at least new to me.


And every once in a while dancing with someone who has been dancing for years, with top quality partners, and hearing: "Ooo - that was good. ... I haven't done that
before."

I am going to be happy whilst there continues to be music and beginners.

[spindr]

Well it appears that you aren't the only one to suffer from this affliction (http://www.salsamafia.com/index.php?Load=Salsa_Curse.html) :)

I don't know how to deal with the problem as a follower -- but as a leader I can choose to switch from leading something technically interesting to something fun (but less technical). In some sense concentrating on: "dancing with the person", rather than "dancing with the person". This is what I would think of as the biggest difference between social dancing and competitive dancing.

SpinDr.

[Clive Long]

Well it appears that you aren't the only one to suffer from this affliction (http://www.salsamafia.com/index.php?Load=Salsa_Curse.html) :)
<< snip excellent advice >>
Becca

I think the good doctor has diagnosed it perfectly. You have now become a hot-shot.

I have sent off to Killingtime for your "Hot-shot and proud of it" badge.

Your investiture will be by the stage in Hammersmith in a couple of weeks time.

Clive

(three today, but who's counting?)

[Little Monkey]

Dunno. I'm still working on getting even more fun out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket followers. When I have it totally sussed, I can drop you a PM.

Muttermuttermutter......

Pah! And I thought The Ass would have the answer..... You can't just come out with a statement like 'work on getting more pleasure out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket leaders', and then not even have any suggestions of how to achieve this. :whistle:

You're just an Ass. :wink:

Horribly Disappointed Little Monkey

[tsh]

I'm definately feeling that I'm starting to reach a point where MJ, and particularly Ceroc is not going to improve my dancing to a stage where I feel comfortable dancing with everyone. There just don't seem to be enough people at at my sort of level, and I am not going to improve dancing with beginners most of the time to be able to dance well with the best. I already do Lindy, but this has just got me to this stage faster.

Sean

[robd]

I'm definately feeling that I'm starting to reach a point where MJ, and particularly Ceroc is not going to improve my dancing to a stage where I feel comfortable dancing with everyone. There just don't seem to be enough people at at my sort of level, and I am not going to improve dancing with beginners most of the time to be able to dance well with the best. I already do Lindy, but this has just got me to this stage faster.

Sean

Then be more pushy and ask the better dancers more often. It's harder because they tend to be the ones in demand but it seems the obvious answer to your dilemma Sean.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Muttermuttermutter......

Pah! And I thought The Ass would have the answer..... You can't just come out with a statement like 'work on getting more pleasure out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket leaders', and then not even have any suggestions of how to achieve this. :whistle:

You're just an Ass. :wink:

Horribly Disappointed Little MonkeyWell I was thinking hard about this, and then I realised that since I don't follow very often, everything I had to say was from a leader's point of view. So maybe not very helpful to FP.
dancing with the person, rather than dancing with the person".I think that was in there somewhere too.

[Gus]

I think that this issue affects women far more than guys. guys tend to be far more in control of the dance and can improvise even if the follwer can't. Ladies, however, have to take what is offeerd to them and so invariably are limited by the capabiltiy and imagination of the lead. :(

As for 'trying elsewhere else' .... without tryng to be accused of 'hot-shotisim' ... if you cant get your fix at Jango or T-jive I would say its very unlikley you will get it elsewehere ... my experience has been there are many good clubs out there but none have the combination of the music, avalailble floor space, regular dance gods and visiting minor-dieties .....

The idea of trying other dacne styles is equally appealing ... but again this depends on why you took up MJ in the first place....

so ... its a shame that dancers like FP feel like they have 'some to the end of the road' ... but that happens in all aspects of life. sometimes it just takes a 6 month or so break ... or sometimes its time to look for something new :o

[Gadget]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.I think that it must be different for leads and followers;? Followers are tied to the moves the lead does and confined by their partner's leading. Leads have a repertoir that seems to get static and nothing new can be found to inspire.

Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?
Seek out some inspiration - films, other venues, events, stage shows,...

Forget learning or improving for a while and just emerse yourself in the music and lead for a couple of nights...

I find that as I improve, the number of 'dream dances' get smaller because I notice more little things that I would have glossed over before: missing a nice phrase in the music; knowing that if I had been in a slightly different position the move would have been smoother; giving too much feedback on a lead; miss-judging where my partner should be; out of time on a dramatic bit;...

The better you get, the more you know. The more you know, the more you notice errors. The more you notice errors, the less you can enjoy the dance. I may notice the errors, but I still have a great time dancing and don't let the list of things to improve smother that enjoyment.
I have great dances every night. I only have 'dream' dances about one night in fifty. But the gap between 'great' and 'dream' is narrowing fractionally every time I dance.

[El Salsero Gringo]

When Nina dances, she's able to put so much "extra" into her dancing that each move, competently led by the man, becomes something quite different.

That's not just because she's extra good at following, she's doing something quite different at the same time - something that's not being led directly. I wonder if developing that kind of skill might be a way forwards? If you can put more of yourself into every dance that's 'only' competently led wouldn't it be more fun?

[Sparkles]

I don't know about you, FP, but every time I think 'there's nothing more I can do to my dancing' (not because I think I'm perfect but for precisely the opposite reason, I know I'll never be perfect and I get depressed thinking I'll never be good enough) someone or something somewhere opens my eyes to a whole new dimension of dancing that I never even knew existed before. IMO you're just in the transition period, waiting for that flash of inspiration to open your eyes and make you love dancing again.

The lulls are horrid. It does make you want to give up. But believe me, when you come through it you will enjoy your dancing again.

As you become more experienced, and a 'better' dancer, the lulls may become more frequent - but as Gadget says, this is because you become more aware of flaws in your dancing and so you notice imperfections more quickly and will become more frustrated with them. This is not a bad thing, it means that your dancing is continuing to improve (if it wasn't improving you wouldn't notice the flaws). There is no glass ceiling beyond which the 'dance gods' sit and laugh down at us mere mortals - all the 'dance gods' are going through the exact same thing too!

In the mean time, while you're feeling the way you describe, maybe it might cheer you to know that your friends at dancing are missing you, and wishing that you'd come back to classes and dance with us again. We gain from dancing with you, and hopefully, when you get that flash of inspiration, you will again benefit from dancing with us :flower:.

S. xx

[CJ]

I remember when Sparkles was going through something similar :hug:

She seems quite happy in her dancing now, tho.. :wink:

[Trish]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.

Somewhere in the past month, I've had what feels like some of the best dances of my life (for various reasons - ability to lead, playing, dreamy blues etc to great music) and yet somehow in a very, very selfish way, I want them to continue on a regular basis - I'd like my 'fix' of dream dances and it's getting more and more difficult to get. In short, I've been spoilt.

I've thought of getting a regular partner as a way of being happy with different things in dance, but these seem few and far between ... or perhaps I just need to go into rehab/cold turkey for a while? It's not that I don't enjoy anything about other dances - I do indeed love MJ - but it doesn't seem to be enough at the moment.

Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?

Have you tried leading? I know it's not every girl's cup of tea but I find it doubles my chances of a good dance, as I can dance with the good men and the good ladies. I also really enjoy trying to interpret the music, which is easier to do when leading and also quite challenging.

Otherwise, I think cold turkey does work sometimes as you're more enthusiastic when you come back to it (I've done this in the past when I felt like you do).

Also, myself, I find concentrating on interpreting the music, even if you're dancing with someone who is taking no notice of it at all, can help - I'll do stops, or slow things down and speed things up, which takes my mind off the fact that the guys a bad lead sometimes (and helps you have a really good dance if the guys a good lead). It's still a work in progress, but I find it interesting.

[under par]

Becca, it is a dilemma I have had to deal with on behalf of a follower(Mrs Par) for some time. her enjoyment of the dream leads is as yours, she also feels her dancing is less challenging when not getting her fix.

The main problem is there are not enough "great/good " leads around to satisfy all the eminently capable followers.

The double edged sword though is that good great followers not dancing with the non dreamy leads on a regular basis may restrict their improvement. So there will be less "good " leads "trained up" within MJ to go round all the followers.

This reminds me of a topic/thread I started some time ago on how we keep men in MJ as many leave as intermediates and do not progress on to the "dreamy lead" stage required by so many followers.

MJ organisers could really benefit their venues cudos (sp?) by providing the best leads in their locale and improving the leaders talents which would virtually guaranteeing plenty of paying customers.

I suppose its all about investing in future business.

Back to Mrs Par.....why do you think Mrs Par and I do 3 to 4 hundred miles each week ??

Chasing the dream leads,........ we have visited many many venues far and wide from our home in Worthing in this cause.

The travelling has had a more than desirable effect for my own dancing which has really improved, I put this down to the numerous excellent classes all over the south coast we have visited in pursiut of the dream leads for Mrs Par, and all the fantastic dancers I have had the pleasure of dancing with whilst there.

It is more difficult IMHO for the follower to obtain the "dream" as it is totally dependent on the lead.

The leader though can have far more good/great dances a night with a large number of followers, of all differing level of experience.

So Becca the decicion is do you chase the dream or do you give up !!!!
Or an the inbetween alternative chasing the dream at various locations whilst encouraging more dreamy leads mixed with a change of style occasionally ??

we are all so lucky to be spoilt in such a way!! :hug: :hug: :flower:





I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.

Somewhere in the past month, I've had what feels like some of the best dances of my life (for various reasons - ability to lead, playing, dreamy blues etc to great music) and yet somehow in a very, very selfish way, I want them to continue on a regular basis - I'd like my 'fix' of dream dances and it's getting more and more difficult to get. In short, I've been spoilt.


Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?

[tsh]

Then be more pushy and ask the better dancers more often. It's harder because they tend to be the ones in demand but it seems the obvious answer to your dilemma Sean.

I'm not sure that I will learn much from dancing with better dancers, because there is a limit to how much they can influence my lead during a dance. It's the teaching which imo is holding me back. Hoping the weekenders in November bring a small amount of inspiration...

[David Franklin]

In the mean time, while you're feeling the way you describe, maybe it might cheer you to know that your friends at dancing are missing you, and wishing that you'd come back to classes and dance with us again. We gain from dancing with you, and hopefully, when you get that flash of inspiration, you will again benefit from dancing with us :flower: :yeah:

Dave :hug:

[LMC]

I know I've posted the link to this before - alt.rec.dance - article is at http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/beginners.html - but this was a real eye-opener for me. I was convinced I would only improve by dancing with better dancers than me (luckily, they are easy to find!), but:


While there is no question that dancing with a better partner will make you *look* good, and that with such a partner you can concentrate more on styling details and so on because the lead and follow doesn't need so much attention, it is not the best way to practice lead/follow skills. If learning leaders only dance with accomplished followers and vice-versa, they won't develop great leading/following skills, because they won't *need* to. Now let's suppose that YOU are a great leader or follower. What happens if you dance only with other great dancers? Your lead and follow skills will gradually *deteriorate* -- because you're not working them very hard. After some months without exposure to beginners, you may be surprised to find that you can't dance with them very well, even though they seem to do okay with other beginners.

You learn how to dance better by dancing with more experienced partners. But you learn how to lead/follow better by dancing with less experienced partners. Your skills are put much more to the test dancing with a beginner than with an experienced dancer. It is easy to lead/follow a great dancer. All your weaknesses as a leader/follower show up with beginners. Dance with them and ask yourself why each incorrectly led/followed figure didn't work and when you figure it out, work on incorporating the fixes into all your dancing!
(my emphasis)

Of course, a dream dance with a beginner is unlikely, but even with my limited experience I have found the above to be so true...

[Lynn]

I don't know about you, FP, but every time I think 'there's nothing more I can do to my dancing' (not because I think I'm perfect but for precisely the opposite reason, I know I'll never be perfect and I get depressed thinking I'll never be good enough) someone or something somewhere opens my eyes to a whole new dimension of dancing that I never even knew existed before. IMO you're just in the transition period, waiting for that flash of inspiration to open your eyes and make you love dancing again.

The lulls are horrid. It does make you want to give up. But believe me, when you come through it you will enjoy your dancing again.Great post - I think everyone goes through this in some way or other at various stages. It can happen so easily in the learning curve (hit my first pocket of frustration at about week 6 when I realised I didn't want to learn lots of 'moves', I wanted to learn to dance, fortunately discovered the forum about that time) and when it does then a change of venue, teacher or even dance style can be the solution. FP, I could see it feeling more frustrating with regard to freestyle - and from your current perspective maybe only see your pool of 'dream' dances getting smaller as you get better. I know what would work for me (taking a break, trying a different style for a while so that MJ would seem like 'coming home' to a much loved place) and I really hope you find something that works for you! :hug:

[under par]

I was kind of rushed into finishing my previous post because I was at work and I wanted to add that all the chasing around does lead (scuse the pun!) to some relatively disappointing evenings but when you recall that you are going out primarily to dance and have fun then it takes most of the negative aspect away.

Someone mentioned Post Weekender Blues.... you are not wrong there!

With all the fun forum hype :yeah: and then the actual realisation of a weekender :clap: :clap: (especially Southport! :worthy: :worthy:) your grip on reality is lost so when you return to the land of normal venues they can be a real anticlimax(oh! and your feet really hurt).

It takes a really serious amount of enthusiasm to keep going out night after night chasing the dream. :flower:

FP you have every right to decide to stop MJ but I for one would really miss our dances and seeing your smile at the various venues we meet, so keep going if you can :yeah: :yeah:

Hoping for a dance on Friday and Monday you know where!!!! :hug:

[Feelingpink]

Thanks everyone for your kind replies and PMs. I think every one of them has struck a chord in some aspect, especially Azande's, although it may come back to haunt him :devil:

I have tried lindy in the past and am not interested in ballroom, but am probably going to concentrate on WCS properly. I would prefer to go down the road of a regular dance partner, but that hasn't worked out. Anyway, I'm very much in the school of believing that I'm responsible for my own happiness, so onward and upward.

If that doesn't 'do it' for me, there's always the road of learning to lead. I had a small taste of this in Southport when one partner decided that I was backleading so much that I should just be in charge. Unfortunately, my lead didn't seem to be convincing enough and he ended up taking control anyway (it was fun trying). And if I became a vaguely reasonable lead, it would mean that I could have the delightful pleasure of leading UP!

Clive, I want to make it clear that I've never danced at Hammersmith, much less by the stage.

Sean, I get to dance with "the better" dancers pretty much most of the time, which is why I think I need to do something different (you know the saying - if you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got). I feel really lucky to have this and it does mean that I still enjoy MJ very much

ESG, the kind of thing you talk about with Nina is what I've been trying to do - trying to make my dancing reward me, almost independently of my partner. Whoever I dance with, I try to give everything to it (unless they're hurting me) - inspired by the likes of LilyB and Nina, who look elegant and wonderful and happy with all partners. It hasn't worked to date - which doesn't mean it won't or can't - just think it's time to take a different tack.

LMC, I have to disagree with your quote (although it doesn't mean I'm right). One of the people I've learned most from in lead and follow (through social dancing) is DavidB, who is a fabulous leader. Learning to follow his subtleties is a constant challenge and joy (and I know I have such a long way to go) - it's as if I have to follow with every cell of my body and brain. Compare this to a clunky beginner's arm jive, octopussy, pretzelly things ... well, there is so much less skill needed (IMHO).

I just can't bring myself to quit MJ cold turkey - missing the dancing I can manage, but missing the fabby people at Jango and the likes, I don't think I can do, so might have to do some gentle weaning off. Dancing and chatting with friends is just so damn good. OK Jango on Monday (see you there UP) AND West Coast on Wednesday with Cat.

[TiggsTours]

I want to make it clear that I've never danced at Hammersmith, much less by the stage.Perhaps you should! Not everyone of us down there is a hotshot dancer, standing in the "no row" alot of us will dance with anyone who asks, and also takes regular walks round the room to seek out someone new! Its just that when you are down by the stage, you can pretty much guarantee that whoever asks you to dance will give you a good one, and that you'll be dancing all night!

Having said all that, on Saturday I actually witnessed a hotshot no-rower, finally! A very lovely looking girl asked the guy next to me to dance, he said he'd have the next one as he hated that song, she went to dance with someone else, and she looked OK, not quite Nina Daines, but perfectly nice and enjoyable to dance with, then she came back for a dance, he said yes, jumped off the stage and disappeared to dance with someone else! I've never seen anything so blatantly rude!

And that was at Hammersmith, down by the stage.

[Lory]

I would prefer to go down the road of a regular dance partner, but that hasn't worked out.
I hope all you 'dancingleton men' are reading this! :devil:

Good luck Rebecca, whatever you decide :hug:

The great thing is, it's never going to be a life threatening decision or one that's irreversible! ;)

There will NO DOUBT be a queue of open arms waiting, whenever you visit! :kiss:

[Little Monkey]

If that doesn't 'do it' for me, there's always the road of learning to lead.

Which can be fantastic fun!! I regularly have lovely dances with Tiggerbabe, and occasional dances with the lovely Lisa (they lead soooooo well), and I also sometimes lead if there's not enough men, if I'm at a 'muggle party' without any MJ men, or when I dance with female beginners.

I had a lovely dance with Lory in Southport (I lead - sorry for the limited range of moves, my brain was at that point completely dead!!!), she's such a fabulous follow, so light!! I also lead David Hancock, but that was more like wrestling at times! :rofl: More force needed when leading men... :rolleyes:

Reading this thread has made me realise that I should perhaps do more classes as a man, instead of sitting out. My only worry is that it'll make me a worse follower.....

LM

[Minnie M]

....../snip/......Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?
I did think of one :whistle:

(BTW got my fix at T-Jive this Sunday)

Changing dance styles may help, I tried that with Lindy - however, didn't feel as comfortable with the people as I do on the MJ scene.

I have said this before and got 'shouted' down, I know we go to dance, but if I don't feel comfortable with the people I meet if does affect my dancing.

Try another style if it helps, but stay with us too (please :flower: ) come to Surbiton on Friday, you will get a dance fix there or at Hipsters later (shame you weren't there on Sunday)

There is another problem on the dance scene, unfortunately, and especially when there are more girls than boys - wish there was a polite way of saying to the over enthusiastic followers - don't be so greedy and don't hog the good dancers, give the guys a chance to choose their dancing partner ocassionally :rolleyes:

[under par]

Which can be fantastic fun!! I regularly have lovely dances with Tiggerbabe, and occasional dances with the lovely Lisa (they lead soooooo well), and I also sometimes lead if there's not enough men, if I'm at a 'muggle party' without any MJ men, or when I dance with female beginners.

I had a lovely dance with Lory in Southport (I lead - sorry for the limited range of moves, my brain was at that point completely dead!!!), she's such a fabulous follow, so light!! I also lead David Hancock, but that was more like wrestling at times! :rofl: More force needed when leading men... :rolleyes:

Reading this thread has made me realise that I should perhaps do more classes as a man, instead of sitting out. My only worry is that it'll make me a worse follower.....

LM

not a chnce LM look at the leaders you have mentioned lisa and Sheena>>>>>>>>>>>get on board you are just as capable IMHO


Have fun as always enjoy your dancing see you soon >

A popular LITTLW MONKEY

[Gojive]

not a chnce LM look at the leaders you have mentioned lisa and Sheena>>>>>>>>>>>get on board you are just as capable IMHO


Have fun as always enjoy your dancing see you soon >

A popular LITTLW MONKEY

Who's in need of some 'E' ?.... :wink:

[Little Monkey]

not a chnce LM look at the leaders you have mentioned lisa and Sheena>>>>>>>>>>>get on board you are just as capable IMHO

A popular LITTLW MONKEY

:o :blush: :nice: :grin: :D

Thanks! :hug:

A Happy Little Monkey!

[TiggsTours]

Changing dance styles may help, I tried that with Lindy - however, didn't feel as comfortable with the people as I do on the MJ scene.

I have said this before and got 'shouted' down, I know we go to dance, but if I don't feel comfortable with the people I meet if does affect my dancing.

:yeah: I love lindy, but just haven't got into it anywhere near as much as MJ for precisely that reason! The MJ scene is so relaxed and welcoming and friendly, Lindy, on the other hand, does tend to be a bit stuck up and serious.

[MartinHarper]

It could be that these competent intermediates are no longer fun, because they are being compared to dance gods. People can trap themselves into asking "am I as happy as I could possibly be?" - and the answer is normally no. I prefer to ask "am I happy?". Some folks are perpetually ambitious, and that's not their style.

It could be that these competent intermediates are no longer fun, because the acquisition of certain types of dancing technique makes them uncomfortable. Personally, I feel that if a dance technique makes dances less enjoyable, then it is bad technique. The only solution is to drink more alcohol, thus reducing such "skills" to the point at which competent intermediates become enjoyable again.

[spindr]

Isn't there an easy way to make sure that you're going to get a good dance -- simply invite your favourite leads/follows along? :whistle:

SpinDr
If a good dance is priceless, then it must be worth the cost of another entry fee?

"Oh, d'harling it's ghastly, been let down at the last minute, and I seem to have an extra ticket for Saturday -- do say you'll come!" :devil:

Might even be cheaper than 300/400 miles worth of petrol :)

[ElaineB]

Well FP, if you want to stretch yourself, (although reading between the lines, it sounds as though you don't have to!), try some Argentinian Tango. You will be able to dance from the heart........may a multitude of wonderful dances be yours!

Elaine

[Trish]

Thanks everyone for your kind replies and PMs. I think every one of them has struck a chord in some aspect, especially Azande's, although it may come back to haunt him :devil:

[snip]

I just can't bring myself to quit MJ cold turkey - missing the dancing I can manage, but missing the fabby people at Jango and the likes, I don't think I can do, so might have to do some gentle weaning off. Dancing and chatting with friends is just so damn good. OK Jango on Monday (see you there UP) AND West Coast on Wednesday with Cat.

Reading this, I feel like you're luckier than you think you are. At least in the London area you have the chance to go to things like Jango or WCS. None of that in Cambridgeshire! And there must be a larger number of good leads there than there are round here - nothing against the guys I dance with some of them are fabulous, but there are just proportionately more dancers, and therefore more good dancers where you are (and also more challenging teaching which attracts the better dancers). Sorry this now sounds like I'm jealous and bitter - I didn't mean that - more to just count your blessings! :flower: I'm sure once you've had a bit of a change and adjusted after the Weekender Blues you'll start enjoying your dancing again.

[Anna]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.

Somewhere in the past month, I've had what feels like some of the best dances of my life (for various reasons - ability to lead, playing, dreamy blues etc to great music) and yet somehow in a very, very selfish way, I want them to continue on a regular basis - I'd like my 'fix' of dream dances and it's getting more and more difficult to get. In short, I've been spoilt.

I've thought of getting a regular partner as a way of being happy with different things in dance, but these seem few and far between ... or perhaps I just need to go into rehab/cold turkey for a while? It's not that I don't enjoy anything about other dances - I do indeed love MJ - but it doesn't seem to be enough at the moment.

Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?

Oh do I know this feeling or what.. :whistle:
Lemme guess.. You're feeling jaded? Have an empty space inside? MJ just not cutting it anymore?

My suggestion is branch out into another style, try something different.

After the NZ Ceroc Champs earlier this year, I was so jaded that I thought I would never dance Ceroc again. And out of sheer.. "not-wanting-to-dance-ness" I went cold turkey for about 6 weeks. No, longer, more like 2 months. Nothing at MJ stimulated me anymore. The people, the music, the moves, the whole scene seemed so contrived and and and.. boring. I can't explain it. I spose I was spoilt by too much enjoyable dancing (ugh and too much champs stress) that when things were back to normal.. it all seemed very (for want of a better word) boring? - Everyone please keep in mind this is the NZ ceroc scene I'm talking about, which is far undeveloped in comparison to that of Australia and the UK.

And so I went back to my Salsa. Which I had been neglecting since Andreas ABANDONED US and moved to London :innocent: .. and started learning WCS again. To cut a long story short, I've found concentrating on Salsa and WCS to be far far far more rewarding than MJ ever was. I barely dance Ceroc at all anymore apart from as a last resort if a song is impossible to dance any other style to.

I know this is a Ceroc forum, and I am in no way bagging MJ.. but.. if it's leaving you feeling disillusioned.. then maybe try something different and you just might surprise yourself. There's nothing wrong with not liking Ceroc as much as other dances :)

[pawplay]

Muttermuttermutter......

Pah! And I thought The Ass would have the answer..... You can't just come out with a statement like 'work on getting more pleasure out of dances that aren't with dream-ticket leaders', and then not even have any suggestions of how to achieve this. :whistle:

You're just an Ass. :wink:

Horribly Disappointed Little Monkey

I totally agree with you although to some extent i agree with the comments made as well!

So i have an idea.....with a lack of incredible leads to choose from and an abundance of of amaizing women, how about setting up an all womens dance group? I've seen it done in salsa and looks fab!
they really push the boundaries of styling, assertive, co-ordinated routines with enormous skill and flare.

[DavidB]

You're just an Ass.

I totally agreeESG hasn't even got the dog yet, and its paws are already complaining...

[Rhythm King]

ESG hasn't even got the dog yet, and its paws are already complaining...

It'll never be able to dance though - it's got two left feet :whistle:

[Dancing Teeth]

I would say, treat this like a 10 year old marriage, :eek: What would you do to improve things.

oh dear, the Cat is out of the bag now... :innocent: :innocent:

[Purple Sparkler]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.

Somewhere in the past month, I've had what feels like some of the best dances of my life (for various reasons - ability to lead, playing, dreamy blues etc to great music) and yet somehow in a very, very selfish way, I want them to continue on a regular basis - I'd like my 'fix' of dream dances and it's getting more and more difficult to get. In short, I've been spoilt.

I've thought of getting a regular partner as a way of being happy with different things in dance, but these seem few and far between ... or perhaps I just need to go into rehab/cold turkey for a while? It's not that I don't enjoy anything about other dances - I do indeed love MJ - but it doesn't seem to be enough at the moment.

Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?

I did feel like that, but the thing is, I think it's all in your attitude to the dances you have. On a recent night at ISH, I was determined to enjoy each and every dance, and just got on with getting my mojo working (using my spare arm, feeling pretty, eye contact with my partner and smiling a lot)- didn't matter who I danced with or how advanced (or otherwise) they were- I didn't have a bad dance all night. So (low funk at Southport aside), I've gone into every Ceroc night since then with the same attitude.

Sure, it's wonderful to have partners who challenge you (sadly my favourite dance partner in that regard is going back to New Zealand soon, so I'll have to find someone new to play with), but a dance can be just as enjoyable with someone who's not as experienced. If you're having a good time, getting into the music etc, they'll have a good time, and their enjoyment then reverberates on you, and so on and so on until you come off the floor elated.

I've thought for a while that a good dance partner doesn't just have the moves- they are taking pleasure in dancing with you. This is why Franck, as I think I said in the Southport thread (and if I didn't then it was very remiss of me), is such a great partner.

[David Bailey]

I would say, treat this like a 10 year old marriage, :eek: What would you do to improve things.
:clap: :clap: :rofl:
- Double Trouble
- learning to lead
- trying different styles
- Watching videos
- Dressing up in costumes...

The analogies are scary.

[Dancing Teeth]

:clap: :clap: :rofl:
- Double Trouble
- learning to lead
- trying different styles
- Watching videos
- Dressing up in costumes...

The analogies are scary.

:eek: then...

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

[bigdjiver]

It'll never be able to dance though - it's got two left feet :whistle:So had Fred and Ginger.

[killingtime]

I think the good doctor has diagnosed it perfectly. You have now become a hot-shot.

I have sent off to Killingtime for your "Hot-shot and proud of it" badge.

Sorry that's ESG. I can only get you a We Love Rachel badge :D.

[Donna]

I'm thinking of giving up MJ.

As I try to improve (and there are four million things I could work on - am trying a few at a time), there is an ever-decreasing circle of leaders who I feel challenged by and an even smaller number of people with whom I have dream dances.

Somewhere in the past month, I've had what feels like some of the best dances of my life (for various reasons - ability to lead, playing, dreamy blues etc to great music) and yet somehow in a very, very selfish way, I want them to continue on a regular basis - I'd like my 'fix' of dream dances and it's getting more and more difficult to get. In short, I've been spoilt.

I've thought of getting a regular partner as a way of being happy with different things in dance, but these seem few and far between ... or perhaps I just need to go into rehab/cold turkey for a while? It's not that I don't enjoy anything about other dances - I do indeed love MJ - but it doesn't seem to be enough at the moment.

Has anyone else felt this or thought of possible solutions?

Put it this way, at least you've had a taste of what partner dancing is like, even if you feel it might not be enough for you. I went through a phase where I felt like that, but now i'm doing ballroom. In ballroom you learn more about rhythm and different footwork, so then when different types of music is played on a MJ freestyle night I throw it in which makes it much more challenging therefore more fun. Try this first but don't just give up MJ.

[tsh]

After saying that I was starting to wonder where MJ was taking me, I thought I ought to mention the class at Bedford last night... I missed the beginners class, but the intermediate was easy enough that noone seemed to struggle too much - but also included the words slot, lead and follow more than a couple of times. So it is possible to cover some technical stuff in an ordinary class... I think that just that one class made quite a difference to my dancing, not just with the better dancers, but with the beginners as well. The only problem was that this wasn't the normal teacher...

Sean

[bigdjiver]

:worthy:
After saying that I was starting to wonder where MJ was taking me, I thought I ought to mention the class at Bedford last night... I missed the beginners class, but the intermediate was easy enough that noone seemed to struggle too much - but also included the words slot, lead and follow more than a couple of times. So it is possible to cover some technical stuff in an ordinary class... I think that just that one class made quite a difference to my dancing, not just with the better dancers, but with the beginners as well. The only problem was that this wasn't the normal teacher...

SeanThe normal teacher is Michaela, :worthy: off recovering from a broken wrist. I have written before that she persistently trickles in style tips. They are not emphasised enough to interfere with beginner fundamentals or the intermediate learning of moves, but they are there, and they do accumulate to make a difference. Michaela :worthy: and Emma :worthy: set the standard for Ceroc Central teachers, and some of them are also building on that with what they learn from weekenders and workshops. Phil :worthy: does deliver a quality product.

[tsh]

:worthy: The normal teacher is Michaela, :worthy: off recovering from a broken wrist. I have written before that she persistently trickles in style tips. They are not emphasised enough to interfere with beginner fundamentals or the intermediate learning of moves, but they are there, and they do accumulate to make a difference. Michaela :worthy: and Emma :worthy: set the standard for Ceroc Central teachers, and some of them are also building on that with what they learn from weekenders and workshops. Phil :worthy: does deliver a quality product.

I think you completely missed my point... Either that, or you are in the pay of the management...

Sean

[bigdjiver]

After saying that I was starting to wonder where MJ was taking me, I thought I ought to mention the class at Bedford last night... I missed the beginners class, but the intermediate was easy enough that noone seemed to struggle too much - but also included the words slot, lead and follow more than a couple of times. So it is possible to cover some technical stuff in an ordinary class... I think that just that one class made quite a difference to my dancing, not just with the better dancers, but with the beginners as well. The only problem was that this wasn't the normal teacher... Sean

I think you completely missed my point... Either that, or you are in the pay of the management... SeanI thought that one of your points was that you had been taught some good things, but, since that was not the normal teacher, you could not usually expect that at a Ceroc Central venue..
I duly responed that the normal teacher was Michaela, and you can certainly expect that from her. Ceroc central has other teachers with their own individual slant on things. In my view if someone attends intermediate classes by Michaela, Emma, Marc and Paul (names limited by my own experience) you will be taught enough to make you a very good MJ dancer. I would have added the departed Kerry to that list, for the fun element.

[robd]

I presume Sean's point is not that the usual Ceroc Central teachers are poor but that he personally had learned a lot from the stand in (who I believe was Paul Harris - Jive P) and that it would be great if Jive P (or whoever it was) did a regular night that Sean could attend to continue this learning and progression.Robert
After saying that I was starting to wonder where MJ was taking me, I thought I ought to mention the class at Bedford last night... I missed the beginners class, but the intermediate was easy enough that noone seemed to struggle too much - but also included the words slot, lead and follow more than a couple of times. So it is possible to cover some technical stuff in an ordinary class... I think that just that one class made quite a difference to my dancing, not just with the better dancers, but with the beginners as well. The only problem was that this wasn't the normal teacher...

Sean

[bigdjiver]

I presume Sean's point is not that the usual Ceroc Central teachers are poor but that he personally had learned a lot from the stand in (who I believe was Paul Harris - Jive P) and that it would be great if Jive P (or whoever it was) did a regular night that Sean could attend to continue this learning and progression.RobertI arrived too late to know who the teacher was, my mention of Paul was based on previous lessons.

[bigdjiver]

I think you completely missed my point... Either that, or you are in the pay of the management...

SeanInteresting repercussions - a Ceroc competitor read this and confronted and questioned me as to whether I was attending his venue because I was trying to entice away his ladies to Ceroc.

A theory, I regret, marred by the fact that my enticing days are past. It is also true that if I lured the selected to Ceroc I would have too much competition and too little room to enjoy them.

[tsh]

Interesting repercussions - a Ceroc competitor read this and confronted and questioned me as to whether I was attending his venue because I was trying to entice away his ladies to Ceroc.


He's not that on the ball, otherwise he'd have told me that I'd got some local alternatives that I ought to be looking into!

Sean

[bigdjiver]

He's not that on the ball, otherwise he'd have told me that I'd got some local alternatives that I ought to be looking into!

SeanHe will ...

[bigdjiver]

Interesting repercussions - a Ceroc competitor read this and confronted and questioned me as to whether I was attending his venue because I was trying to entice away his ladies to Ceroc.

A theory, I regret, marred by the fact that my enticing days are past. It is also true that if I lured the selected to Ceroc I would have too much competition and too little room to enjoy them.Developments - a phone call - Apparently the questioning about enticing never happened. All that did happen, allegedly was that I was alleged to have done an arial with a beginner, and he was worried that I might be frightening away his members.

As I recall I did arial moves with three ladies that night. All three I recognised as experienced dancers, though one may have been a newcomer to his club. I saw no beginner sticker. It is not beyond possibility that I might has mistaken the identity of the newcomer to his club. In any event I accept that he was right to reprimand me on this point, and an apology is on its way.

I have previously posted elsewhere how even seeing arials being performed could frighten a beginner, and I have modified my behaviour to restrict them to late on in the evening when most of the less keen beginners have gone home, and there is more room. Last night at Bedford I attended the beginners revision because there was an excess of ladies, and spent the early part of the evening dancing with each of them. Near the end I was doing arials with ladies that wanted to do them. I try to dance to my partners desires, and try to be an asset wherever I dance. Alas, sometimes I fail :tears:

[robd]

Developments - a phone call - Apparently the questioning about enticing never happened.

He sounds quite sinister, this non-C**** (as his forum would display it) man. Unless I am mistaken on his identity, in which case Big D, many forum members will no doubt ng rep you for not naming and shaming:wink:

[bigdjiver]

He sounds quite sinister, this non-C**** (as his forum would display it) man. Unless I am mistaken on his identity, in which case Big D, many forum members will no doubt ng rep you for not naming and shaming:wink:I have never considered him sinister. He is perhaps over-emotional, and, understandably wedded to his business, and perhaps over-protective. I have had some really enjoyable nights at his venue, trying to dance to some tracks that I have never had the opportunity to hear at Ceroc venues. I am definitely not everybodies cup of tea, and may deter some ladies, but I see enough ladies running across the dance floor to ask me to do advanced moves to know I am not a complete waste of space either.
I have posted extensively on this forum in support of the Ceroc model and policy and against changing it, and maintain that view. I have tried other organisations to learn and enjoy other ways of doing things, and am glad that there is diversity. In my view there is enough space in the MJ universe for all.
I have posted on this forum that I liked his idea of chill-out zones, but, in practise people sit in them, oblivious of the signs, who want to dance.
This storm in a teacup is not a problem for me. St. Neots has always been one of my favourite venues, it is just difficult for me to get ready in time to catch the bus.

[tsh]

He sounds quite sinister, this non-C**** (as his forum would display it) man. Unless I am mistaken on his identity, in which case Big D, many forum members will no doubt ng rep you for not naming and shaming:wink:

Since I don't believe I've met either of the protagonists, I'll reserve judgement... I think further investigations are in order though! Interesting postings on the other forum though :rofl:

Sean

[El Salsero Gringo]

Developments - a phone call - Apparently the questioning about enticing never happened. All that did happen, allegedly was that I was alleged to have done an arial with a beginner, and he was worried that I might be frightening away his members.
Are you going to say who you're talking about then?

[David Bailey]

Are you going to say who you're talking about then?
Yes, please do, the last time we had that discussion was so much fun :sick:

Actually, in this case, the guy's not really being slated - so I don't see why not; certainly I imagine anyone local (or even I, if I could be bothered) can easily work it out.

[ducasi]

Actually, in this case, the guy's not really being slated - so I don't see why not; certainly I imagine anyone local (or even I, if I could be bothered) can easily work it out. If anyone who's in a position to care already knows, then why bother? It won't make my life any better, what will it do for you?

[bigdjiver]

Are you going to say who you're talking about then?No.

The bottom line is the guy sees me as detrimental to his business, and confronted me about it. He is now accusing me of doing a "stupid" move with a beginner. I remember our discussion as a "an arial". Whatever, I would support his right to confront me, or even ban me on this basis.

He has discovered this forum, and is very upset about previous comments I made about him, which is also perfectly reasonable. He and his business have progressed very well since those comments were made, and I have enjoyed my visits to his venue lately.




Post edited by Tiggerbabe at Bigdjiver's request.

[El Salsero Gringo]

No.

The bottom line is the guy sees me as detrimental to his business, and confronted me about it. He is now accusing me of doing a "stupid" move with a beginner. I remember our discussion as a "an arial". Whatever, I would support his right to confront me, or even ban me on this basis.

He has discovered this forum, and is very upset about previous comments I made about him, which is also perfectly reasonable. He and his business have progressed very well since those comments were made, and I have enjoyed my visits to his venue lately.I simply can't fathom how if you consider it appropriate to post details of your conversations with this guy, you can consider inappropriate to say who you're talking about. I can't see it as anything but an all-or-nothing situation. Such a minor point, but can someone explain it to me, by PM if they prefer?

[MartinHarper]

Can someone explain it to me?

Ooh, can I try some ill-informed speculation? It's so much fun. :)

Anonymous Organiser Person (hereafter "AOP") is cross with bigd. By posting on this forum, bigd gets to, subtly, wave the stick of AOP being named on the forum. As this stick is a one-time-use stick, it is prudent for bigd to not use it at this stage. Bigd also gets to defend himself against any rumours that may be circulating behind the scenes, regarding use of "dangerous moves" on "beginners".

Ahh, Machiavelli would be proud.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Ooh, can I try some ill-informed speculation? It's so much fun. :)

Anonymous Organiser Person (hereafter "AOP") is cross with bigd. By posting on this forum, bigd gets to, subtly, wave the stick of AOP being named on the forum. As this stick is a one-time-use stick, it is prudent for bigd to not use it at this stage. Bigd also gets to defend himself against any rumours that may be circulating behind the scenes, regarding use of "dangerous moves" on "beginners".

Ahh, Machiavelli would be proud.Sounds like the thermonuclear weapons as a defense mechanism argument. Of course it relies on the other party believing that BigD would actually be prepared to use his big stick....

[ChrisA]

Sounds like the thermonuclear weapons as a defense mechanism argument. Of course it relies on the other party believing that BigD would actually be prepared to use his big stick....
... and that it would hurt if he did.

[pjthefantastic]

Your post is alive and well, and sparking a good debate BigDave!

PJ