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Will
17th-January-2003, 02:21 PM
Well the official announcement has now come out so I thought I'd start the ball rolling on this one as there are some key differences between this years champs and previous years....

Namely the addition of the OPEN Catagory and .....
....YES Teachers CAN enter
....YES Airsteps ARE allowed
....YES Stevie Wong is going to walk away with it (sorry couldn't help myself)

Seriously though, what are peoples thoughts on this?

P.S. Registration is at www.cerocchamps.com (http://www.cerocchamps.com)

TheTramp
17th-January-2003, 02:25 PM
I think it's a good idea. Although, obviously I won't be there!!

Steve

PS. GO STEVIE!!!

Will
17th-January-2003, 02:29 PM
My personal feelings are in favour of including teachers but against airsteps. It's going to be great to see teachers go head to head with other advanced dancers too. However I would have like the rules (ie the ball of one foot on the floor) to be the same as the other catagories so that you could compare like with like. I'm also worried that there might now be a whole load of couples practising airsteps at normal Ceroc nights, causing a danger to themselves and the other dancers.

The good news is that you are allowed to enter the Advanced and the Open.

I suppose the other question is who will enter the open Catagory? (Bare in mind that they are only allowing 10 couples to compete in it this year). I've heard from Mick W. that he intends to do it. But will V&L be lured? I'd be surprised but it would be great if they did! Perhaps we should post a dream top 10 of dance couples we'd like to see line up in this catagory....

Will
17th-January-2003, 02:47 PM
Mine would be (in alphabetical order)

Amir & Kate
Clayton & Janine
Graham LeClerc & Sarah (??)
Mick & Hannah
James & Hayley
Joseph & Trisha
Nigel & Nina
Paul Tavanasu & Partner (based on Reputation - I've never seen him dance)
Stevie Wong & Debstar
Viktor & Lydia

Gus
17th-January-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Will
Mine would be (in alphabetical order)

Amir & Kate
Clayton & Janine
Graham LeClerc & Sarah (??)
Mick & Hannah
James & Hayley
Joseph & Trisha
Nigel & Nina
Paul Tavanasu & Partner (based on Reputation - I've never seen him dance)
Stevie Wong & Debstar
Viktor & Lydia

And (as ODA) one might ask who would judge such an august range of dancers. There a few teachers in CTA who have a big rep or indeed experiemce of dance competition. The only names that come to mind are Mike Allard and Linda Barker (who I notice are missing from your couples list), Sue Taylor and Sue Freeman (apologies for any whom my ignorance has ommitted). Or ... would Ceroc actualy bring in some of the big names of the Modern Jive world who actualy have some experience ... i.e. the Judges who are going the UK Open Champs (Blackpool) :wink:

Will
17th-January-2003, 03:55 PM
You make a good point Gus (ODA). I would like to see the veritable Mr Roger Chin on the panel for starters. And yes I'd forgetten about Mike & Lynda. (and loads of others too I'm sure).

Going back to my original point though, I'd still prefer it without the airsteps.

Gus
17th-January-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Will

Going back to my original point though, I'd still prefer it without the airsteps.

Agreed ..sort of.

Over the last month or so I've been reflecting on the NZ/Aussie 'airsteps' philospophy. Interestingly, they have a different definition of an airstep. It something along the lines that the womans hips (?) have to be higher than the guy's chest for it to be an airstep (please corrrect if I've got this wrong). the net result is that moves like simple straight ifts, hip hop, half loops etc are all allowable. If this approach was taken for an OPEN competition I think I would be in favour.

bradders
17th-January-2003, 10:27 PM
Application forms have been posted out to all dancers who have attended in the last couple of years and are available at all Ceroc venues.
The first official Champs website has been launched and can be found on www.cerocchamps.com
It is not finished yet but still lots to look at.
New competition category this year the Open Category, which is, as its name suggests, open to anyone, teachers and dance professionals included. 4 aerials per track allowed, only 10 places available, (a couple already gone). So if you want to be that star on top of the pile (you will have to see the new Champs logo to get the relevance of that!) then book on-line NOW.
It's on 4th May 2003 hence the new strapline.......
MAY THE FORTH........BE WITH YOU.
Hope to see you all there

Gary
17th-January-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Gus
...

Over the last month or so I've been reflecting on the NZ/Aussie 'airsteps' philospophy.


Heavens, I didn't know we had a philosophy over here. Sounds dangerously intellectual.


Interestingly, they have a different definition of an airstep. It something along the lines that the womans hips (?) have to be higher than the guy's chest for it to be an airstep (please corrrect if I've got this wrong).
From http://www.cerocdance.com.au/champs_2003/ceroc.asp


"ground" Ceroc moves ie, some part or the whole of each dancers
body must always remain below the waist of their partner(s) at all times

whereas the Open advanced category is "anything goes". With the Open section they make sure they've got a much smaller number of couples on the floor at a time. Last year I found the Open section spectacular, but not as satisfying as the Classical (with ground moves only). Oh and teachers compete in both the Advanced Classical and the Advanced Open.

Gus
18th-January-2003, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by David Bradley
New competition category this year the Open Category, which is, as its name suggests, open to anyone, teachers and dance professionals included........, only 10 places available,

Only 10 places available...

Lets see ... there are about 100 Ceroc teachers ... about 15 Blitz, about the same MoJive, 40 or so LeRoc teachers ... at least 50 independants and lets say around 50+ advanced dancers who aren't teachers....

Is it just bad maths and my warped logic but I'm not sure if 10 places will bring forth a real compeiton of the UKs brightest and finest.... or am I being unfair ... as usual
:wink:

DavidB
18th-January-2003, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by Will
Going back to my original point though, I'd still prefer it without the airsteps. (I noticed that the Bristol competition is going to allow 3 airsteps as well.)

It utterly and completely puts me off entering. I trust very few people to do an airstep within 15 feet of me when I dance. I certainly couldn't think of 9 other couples...

How are you going to compare someone who dances well, but does no airsteps, with someone who can't dance, but can do amazing airsteps? You have to decide if it is a dance competition, or an gymnastics competition.

Do the judges know enough about aerials to judge them? Do they know what is difficult, and what is easy? Are there any guidelines for marking the entry and exit to aerials?

It also give the wrong impression to the average dancer. "If you want to look good, you must do 3 or 4 airsteps every song!"

I agree with Will - leave the aerials to the Showcase, or a separate aerials category. This is a *very* bad idea.

David

Gus
18th-January-2003, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

Do the judges know enough about aerials to judge them? Do they know what is difficult, and what is easy? Are there any guidelines for marking the entry and exit to aerials?
David

Hmmm ... this is issue of judges comes up again. given that Ceroc instructors are not trained to do airstpes ... and that they are disuaded from doing them ... I wouldn't have thought they were best qualified to judge them.

An additional point occured to me yesterday ... while eagerly watching my newly delivered vid of the 2002 Ceroc champs. It was a bit hard to tell (the vid was very dark) ..but the advanced Heat seemd to be about 20 couples competing at the same time. How can you judge that? With a 3 minute trck, thats 180 seconds ... that means that the judges had 9 seconds per couple! Sorry .. but at that level there is no way you can make an informed decision. At Blackpool, there are three heats in the first round and the judges sit at an elevated position so they've a better view of the floor.

Gus
18th-January-2003, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Will
Mine would be (in alphabetical order)

Amir & Kate
Clayton & Janine
Graham LeClerc & Sarah (??)
Mick & Hannah
James & Hayley
Joseph & Trisha
Nigel & Nina
Paul Tavanasu & Partner (based on Reputation - I've never seen him dance)
Stevie Wong & Debstar
Viktor & Lydia

Just noticed ... no dancers mentioned from the North, Midlands or Scotland. Hmmmm, surely there is some talent outside the South:wink:

Will
18th-January-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Just noticed ... no dancers mentioned from the North, Midlands or Scotland. Hmmmm, surely there is some talent outside the South:wink:

That is probably because I hardly know any!!!! I just put down MY dream 10.

Come on man, it's just a bit of fun. Rather than criticising my selection - How about posting yours???

(throws his hands up in the air :sad: )

Gus
18th-January-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Will

Come on man, it's just a bit of fun. Rather than criticising my selection - How about posting yours???


Will-Boy, forgive me ... you misunderstood my comment. It was more of an open question to those in the more civilised parts of the UK to propose their local heroes.



Must admit, can't think of too many contendors in the North to the real a list, i.e. the likes of Amir, Nigel, Viktor, Clayton, Paul and their equally talented partners. However, for the rest ... in the North West there is (Pistol) Pete, George (Blues) Moss, Paula Chaloner and Clare Duggan. In the North East there are such stars as Sue Freeman, Dan the Body and Helen Zambass. I think that the Blackpool champs will be a good proving ground as to their worth against the better known Southern 'names' ... except for Pete who unfortunatly will be off snowboarding. Pete is probably the best male dancer in the North and I would match him against anyone not in the A list.

As for the Ceroc Champs ... well I don't know if any of the better Northern dancers would enter ... certainly the ones I've spoken to don't regard the Ceroc champs on the same level as Blackpool at advanced level .... but this may change....

PS Re thye mythical S Wong ... was he the guy in the final of the Intermediates at Ceroc 2002 wearing white top, black trous with flashy bits on the side dancing with a blonde partner?

Will
19th-January-2003, 03:54 AM
Fair enough Gus. :nice:

And Yes Mr Wong was the chap you mentioned with the blonde partner (who happens to be James Geary's wife - Leana).

DavidB
19th-January-2003, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Gus
the judges sit at an elevated position so they've a better view of the floor. I've never liked the judges sitting on stage.

I the heats - when there are a lot of couples on the floor, I prefer judges to walk around. It is the only way to have any chance on an unrestricted, close-up view of each couple.

In the final, the judges can see without moving. But putting them on stage give the competitors a problem - do you perform for the judges, or the audience? It is better to get the judges sitting on chairs on the floor, in front of the audience.


that means that the judges had 9 seconds per couple!And in that 9 seconds they have to see the couples number, find that number on their scoring sheets, and write something on what they think of the dancers - as well as judging the couple against everyone else!

Although it might be nice to have fewer couples in each heat, it is not always practical. It takes a long time to call couples to the floor, check everyone is there, and collect the marks afterwards. A faster option might be to have 2 or 3 songs in each heat...

David

TheTramp
19th-January-2003, 05:57 PM
Must admit, can't think of too many contendors in the North to the real a list, i.e. the likes of Amir, Nigel, Viktor, Clayton, Paul and their equally talented partners. However, for the rest ... in the North West there is (Pistol) Pete, George (Blues) Moss, Paula Chaloner and Clare Duggan. In the North East there are such stars as Sue Freeman, Dan the Body and Helen Zambass.I'm sure it's just modesty, but the list seems to be missing the namesake of a certain gorgeous gorilla!! Or are you just in there by default, since you're (presumably) dancing with the lovely Helen then Gus??

Steve

bradders
22nd-January-2003, 03:37 PM
Just a couple of things in regard to the Open Category and the Showcase.
Firstly the Open Category will be run as two heats of 5 couples dancing to two tracks, one modern, one classic, of different bpm.
There will then be a final of 5 couples dancing to two tracks etc.
The Open is not an aerials category...there is just the option of including up to 4 aerials per track. The winners will be those who in the opinion of the judges are the best, judged in accordance with the rules for that category.
We have included this category and the option of aerials because of feedback from the last couple of Champs....this it seems is what the people want!
Also, the Showcase was originally a category in which dancers could showcase a different gendre of dance, i.e. if a couple wanted to do a classical ballet piece then they could.
There have been more and more Modern Jive based Showcase submissions over the last couple of years which has lead to the original concept being eroded.
This year all Showcase submissions will be vetted to ensure that the quality of content is maintained and that the widest possible spread of style/concepts are represented.
The Open Category is also an platform for advanced modern jivers who want to show off their aerial skills.
This is not a specialist aerials competition.
We must try and maintain the quality and the entertainment value of the event,along with balance between competition/displays and freestyle..
The changes introduced this year are generated by feedback from the attendees.
We want to continually improve the event and all feedback, of which there is always a fair amount, has, and will continue to be analysed, and where appropriate, acted upon.
Also just incase your interested there are only a few places left in both categories so sign up quick if your thinking of entering.:cool:

Gus
22nd-January-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by David Bradley
......the Open Category will be run as two heats of 5 couples dancing to two tracks, one modern, one classic, of different bpm.
There will then be a final of 5 couples dancing to two tracks etc.
........The winners will be those who in the opinion of the judges are the best, judged in accordance with the rules for that category...........We want to continually improve the event and all feedback, of which there is always a fair amount, has, and will continue to be analysed, and where appropriate, acted upon.

Dave, thanks for the info.

Raising a few points raised earlier ... could you advise who the judges will be?

To be honest, the competition is expensive to enter and the fact the intermediate prize is the same as those in the more advanced categories erodes the prize being a reason to enter ... so competitiors may only be drawn if they think that the kudos of the competition is sufficient for them to incur the expense. I can only speak for myslef when I say the major decision point would be the calibre of the judges ..... so who are they:wink:

Jayne
22nd-January-2003, 04:04 PM
[start rant, take blood pressure pills]

I've just been reading the rules for the Cabaret section of the champs (just for general interest, you understand) and I quote:

The lead and follow aspect of the dance must clearly be demonstrated

Am I missing the point completely but how on earth do you demonstrate lead and follow in a fully choreographed routine that you've spent months rehearsing??? :what:

someone please tell me I've missed the boat.

[end rant, calm down]

just wondering
Jayne
*sigh*

Gus
22nd-January-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Jayne


The lead and follow aspect of the dance must clearly be demonstrated

Am I missing the point completely but how on earth do you demonstrate lead and follow in a fully choreographed routine that you've spent months rehearsing??? :what:
Jayne
*sigh*

Jayne, worry not ... I can't remember the last time that rule has been applied by judges even in freestyle :wink:

DavidB
22nd-January-2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by David Bradley
Firstly the Open Category will be run as two heats of 5 couples dancing to two tracks, one modern, one classic, of different bpm. There will then be a final of 5 couples dancing to two tracks etc.Good idea


The Open is not an aerials category...there is just the option of including up to 4 aerials per track. We have included this category and the option of aerials because of feedback from the last couple of Champs....this it seems is what the people want!I'm all for an open category - just don't like the aerials. Given the number of irresponsible idiots who do aerials at Ceroc nights, this does not surprise me that it was asked for.


The Open Category is also an platform for advanced modern jivers who want to show off their aerial skills. This is not a specialist aerials competition.What is the difference?


Also, the Showcase was originally a category in which dancers could showcase a different gendre of dance, i.e. if a couple wanted to do a classical ballet piece then they could. There have been more and more Modern Jive based Showcase submissions over the last couple of years which has lead to the original concept being eroded.So why not have a 'Modern Jive Showcase' and a separate 'Cabaret' division (ie anything but jive). Or is the idea not to promote Modern Jive as a medium for doing choreographed routines???

It is a shame the rules are not consistent in all the competitions around the country, and instead you are expected to put together a different routine for every event.


This year all Showcase submissions will be vetted to ensure that the quality of content is maintained and that the widest possible spread of style/concepts are represented.No problem with that - except who does the vetting? And when and how? Is it done before, or on the day? Do you have to submit a video?


Also just incase your interested there are only a few places left in both categories so sign up quick if your thinking of entering.The Open is too dangerous. And the Showcase seems to be a very expensive way of getting a video of your routine. I'll just go as a spectator.

Ultimately it is Ceroc's competition. They have every right to run is as they see fit. I might not like it myself, but at least they have taken note of what some people would like. If they want an Open division with aerials, it is their choice. If they want to have a cross-dressing, same-sex aerials division judged purely on bad taste, they can. (And you thought photos were bad - imagine the video...)

David

DavidB
22nd-January-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
rules for the Cabaret section :
The lead and follow aspect of the dance must clearly be demonstrated
Am I missing the point completely but how on earth do you demonstrate lead and follow in a fully choreographed routine that you've spent months rehearsing???In exactly the same way that some men try to lead in a class, even when the ladies know what is coming next.

I can see the idea of what they want - predominantly Ceroc lead/follow type moves.

I wonder what would happen if one of the men forgets part of the routine, and the lady drags him through for a few seconds? Do you get disqualified.

It will be an interesting one for the judges.

David

Will
23rd-January-2003, 02:22 PM
Interesting post DavidB

A couple of small points that I'd make are that I think there is a difference between an Open Catagory where Airpsteps are allowed and an Airsteps Catagory in it's own right. I can't remember if you were at Amir's a few weeks ago when David & Bryony did there Airsteps routine from the Isle of Wight. That was an Airsteps routine through and through, I doubt you'd see anything like that in an Open Catagory.

I totally agree with you about the danger of idiots doing their Airsteps at a normal ceroc night, but I think that it's a bit harsh to label the Open Competition itself as 'Dangerous' when there are only 5 couples per heat. I mean come on man, have you seen the size of that dance floor.

(Imagine though if by some miracle there was a massive collision - It could turn into a massive ruck and we could all pitch in.... and then they could play chants of 'Jerry... Jerry... Jerry over the P.A. :grin: A great day out IMHO )

Jayne
23rd-January-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I wonder what would happen if one of the men forgets part of the routine, and the lady drags him through for a few seconds? Do you get disqualified.
David

The answer should be "no". The rules state that the lead and follow aspect of the dance must be demonstrated, but does not stipulate how that must be done. In this situation the girl is leading and he's following. OK so it's not "normal" but then again rule seven says that points will be awarded for innovative choreography and a female lead is (albeit arguably) innovative choreography.

(I admit that some days I just wanna pick fights. :devil: )

Jayne
:nice:

DavidB
23rd-January-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
The answer should be "no". The rules state that the lead and follow aspect of the dance must be demonstrated, but does not stipulate how that must be done. In this situation the girl is leading and he's following. OK so it's not "normal" but then again rule seven says that points will be awarded for innovative choreography and a female lead is (albeit arguably) innovative choreography.:D :D :D :D

You must be a lawyer!

But now I can't wait for this to happen, and for someone to use this argument.

David

Jayne
23rd-January-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
:D :D :D :D
You must be a lawyer!
But now I can't wait for this to happen, and for someone to use this argument.
David

That thought went through my head as I was typing it...

My flat mate at uni was a law student and whenever we asked her about something the reply always started "It depends which way you argue it but...."

Anyone wanna give me something to pick holes in?? :devil:

Jayne
:nice:

DavidB
23rd-January-2003, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Will
A couple of small points that I'd make are that I think there is a difference between an Open Catagory where Airpsteps are allowed and an Airsteps Catagory in it's own right. I can't remember if you were at Amir's a few weeks ago when David & Bryony did there Airsteps routine from the Isle of Wight. That was an Airsteps routine through and through, I doubt you'd see anything like that in an Open Catagory.I was there. They did a very nice Showcase routine (ie own music, choreographed, lifts allowed.)

As far as I can remember, Airsteps competitions are organisers music, no choreography, minimum number of aerials.

And the Open is organisers music, no choreography, up to 4 airsteps allowed.

So the only difference is that you don't have to do aerials. But given that David Bradley states "The Open Category is also an platform for advanced modern jivers who want to show off their aerial skills", most people are likely to do aerials.

I wonder how a couple who do no airsteps will fare?


I totally agree with you about the danger of idiots doing their Airsteps at a normal ceroc night, but I think that it's a bit harsh to label the Open Competition itself as 'Dangerous' when there are only 5 couples per heat. I mean come on man, have you seen the size of that dance floor.They once held an invitational Rock'n'Roll competition on that floor, and they said it was only just big enough for 2 couples at a time.

If couples were stationary, then there may be just enough room. However a lot of Ceroc dancers do travelling moves. Some common moves (eg the floor-sweeper) take a lot of room if you do them will. And most aerials take a lot of room if something goes wrong. You might start of with plenty of room, but not when you are half way through the song.

Virtually everyone I've seen doing aerials in the UK has enough problems simply trying to do the moves that they cannot take enough notice of what is going on around them.

It is only my opinion, but I think it is too dangerous.

David

Gus
23rd-January-2003, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Gus

Raising a few points raised earlier ... could you advise who the judges will be?............ I can only speak for myself when I say the major decision point would be the calibre of the judges ..... so who are they:wink:

Now ... I may be being malicious (OK ... more malicious than usual) but as ODA it does seem odd that Ceroc HQ seems reticent to reveal who they will have judging this prestigious competition .......... any ideas why??:devil: :devil:

TheTramp
28th-January-2003, 01:17 AM
Maybe they:

a. Haven't seen your post yet

or

b. Haven't decided on the judges yet.

ODA (in training)

Steve

Will
28th-January-2003, 02:45 AM
Do they normally disclose who the judges will be then? I don't think they did last year.

Last year the judges were made up of the more senior and experienced Ceroc teachers on the whole. You never agree with every decision the judges make, but I thought that Ceroc made a pretty good job of it last year on the whole.

Gus
28th-January-2003, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Will
Do they normally disclose who the judges will be then? I don't think they did last year.

True ... Ceroc didn't, Chance 2 Dance do though .... well at least usually ... noticed they've not posted them on their web site yet.




Last year the judges were made up of the more senior and experienced Ceroc teachers on the whole.

Uuuummmm ... don't think thats quite right I know a number of 'senior' instructors who either don't want to do it or simply weren't asked. There were a number of teachers asked who were very new teachers. I come back to my earlier question .... if you were competing, wouldn't you expect to be judged by someone you regarded as an experienced competitor so that you had some faith in what they knew they were looking at? {Being ODA of course :wink: }

TheTramp
28th-January-2003, 11:38 AM
*Gulp* This post takes me past Franck, and makes me (probably briefly) the top poster. In post count only though.... :rolleyes:


if you were competing, wouldn't you expect to be judged by someone you regarded as an experienced competitor so that you had some faith in what they knew they were looking atUmmm. Since ceroc teachers can't enter freestyle competitions (until now), how could any of them be an experienced competitor.

Have to admit, I'm not sure how I'd go about selecting judges if I was running a competition (which I won't be). It's very difficult - since I'm sure that the best dancers wouldn't necessarily make the best judges (in the same way that the best dancers don't always make the best teachers).

Someone who has enough knowledge to make a decision, along with total objectivity and no personal issues/interests with any of the competitors would be hard to find. Finding 6 (or however many you want), would be impossible I think, unless you went totally outside the modern jive dance scene.

I wonder how they select the judges for the American competitions (David???)

Steve

PeterL
28th-January-2003, 11:54 AM
I think most people who compete, do so for the fun only and have no aspirations, expectations of winning.

Though this said having 6 judges should iron out any individual issues/interests with any of the competitors.

At the end of the day Chance2dance are supplying a venue where many great dancers get together and have fun, for most modern jivers we don't really mind who wins as long as we have a great weekend and with that many great dancers in one place it would be difficult not to.

TheTramp
28th-January-2003, 12:05 PM
Oh. Meant to say.

I really think that in all competitions, all of the judges marks should be visible afterwards. I know it's been talked about in various circles for a long time, and I really can't see why it's not done. If anyone can tell me why the judges marks aren't made public, I'd be very interested to hear the reasons.

Steve

Gus
28th-January-2003, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
.....If anyone can tell me why the judges marks aren't made public, I'd be very interested to hear the reasons.

Steve

Fair point but as ODA should point out the other side ......

Although some competitiors DO take the event seriously (after all, it is a competition) ... SOME take it far too seriously .... at the Bristol 2001 (I think) event one of the judges was Ann (as in ex-Roger & Ann). A nicer person you couldn't wish to meet. However, one competitor didn't get the result he wanted and proceded to personaly lambast her .... upsetting her a fair bit. The sad truth is that there are some big egos out there and I've heard them spouting off about how hard done to they were ... even though they are patently cr*p. So some protection for the judges may be required.

Having said that ... putting forward the other view ... I've seen some judging decision that were complete shockers .... and like many of the audience I would have loved to know what was going through the judges mind. I wouldn't then want to personaly argue the toss with the judges ("the judges decision is final") ... but at least we would know why!

Gus
28th-January-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
I think most people who compete, do so for the fun only and have no aspirations, expectations of winning...........for most modern jivers we don't really mind who wins as long as we have a great weekend and with that many great dancers in one place it would be difficult not to.


Yup ... totaly agree ... but it is a COMPETITION .... and the C2D event is for the best dancers to compete .... Although the majority are there for the experince and spectacle ... there are about 50 or more dancers there taking it pretty seriously and that shouldn't be held against them ... in fact I would hope that the hard work and dedication they put in should be lauded. There are dancers spending significant amounts of cash on professional coaching, studio time and practicing three or four time a week. All that adds up to promoting high standards and entertaining the watching public.

TheTramp
28th-January-2003, 01:40 PM
I agree that I wouldn't want to put the judges 'at risk' of personal attacks.

I would publish the results on the web site, but not put the judges names alongside the marks. So then each competitor could see their results in each of the areas marked in (technical, musicality etc.), for every single round they were in, but not know which particular judge awarded them the marks (hopefully, the marks would be similar from each judge).

If any competitor approached a judge and gave any form of verbal harrassment for any decision, that person would be banned from any further events I organised, and I would probably pass on the details to every other competition organiser.

Steve

Gus
28th-January-2003, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Will
You never agree with every decision the judges make, but I thought that Ceroc made a pretty good job of it last year on the whole.

Strange thing ... having seen a preview tape of the finals of the Intermediate and Advanced categories for 2002, up to a week ago I would have taken great issue with you. However, having said that, having had time to watch the Advanced competition a fair few times, got to admit my original view was wrong.

Still got my reservations about the Intermediate result, and cannot belive that Clayton and Janine weren't placed, BUT it proved to me just how wrong initial impressions can be.:sick:

Janet
28th-January-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Gus
....having had time to watch the Advanced competition a fair few times, got to admit my original view was wrong.

.... BUT it proved to me just how wrong initial impressions can be.:sick:
Interesting comments, given that the judges at a competition do no get to watch action replays and only have their initial impressions to base their decision on.

Gus
28th-January-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Janet
Interesting comments, given that the judges at a competition do no get to watch action replays and only have their initial impressions to base their decision on.

Hence the importance of experience and impartiality in a judge ... and hence the interest in who is judging at Ceroc. Who is going to put themselves though all the pain, humiliation, cost and confidence angst for the Open section only to (potentially) find themselves be judged by someone who has less experience than they have???

Will
28th-January-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Still got my reservations about the Intermediate result, and cannot belive that Clayton and Janine weren't placed, BUT it proved to me just how wrong initial impressions can be.:sick:
I'd probably go along with you there Gus. But if anything could surprise me more than C&J not getting placed or Stevie Wong not winning the intermediate, if would be every judging decision being totally in-line with my own. There are always going to be differences, and after being in Bristol last year, I realised how relatively close the Ceroc judging was to my own opinion.

TheTramp
28th-January-2003, 05:35 PM
You mean Will, that you didn't think that the judging in Bristol last year was close to what you thought the results should be???

Steve

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
28th-January-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Who is going to put themselves though all the pain, humiliation, cost and confidence angst for the Open section only to (potentially) find themselves be judged by someone who has less experience than they have???

Experience in what? Judging or dancing?

Which ought to be more important?

Gus
28th-January-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Basil Brush
Experience in what? Judging or dancing?

Which ought to be more important?

Personal view is that you have to be a pretty fair dancer to begin with ... THEN get judging experience. Having done some judging myself, I know full well just how difficult it is ... it would have been all the harder if I hadn't been dancing for a fair while and got some competition experience.

I still come back to an previous point .... in ANY form of assessed competition, you have to have confidence that the judges know what they are talking about .... that they have credibility.

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
28th-January-2003, 11:12 PM
I think it's a bit daunting as Janet says, where the initial subjective impression is what's most important. Who I think is great and who my partner thinks is crap, could be the same person! So what seems vital is that there are a large quantity of judges to create some sort of balance.

Will
29th-January-2003, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
You mean Will, that you didn't think that the judging in Bristol last year was close to what you thought the results should be???

Steve

That's correct Steve. But don't worry, I wasn't talking about the showcase catagory which I know you entered. To be honest I can't remember who won that. Apologies if it was you :sorry

I ain't gonna start slagging the judges at Bristol off though. At the end of the day it does come down to subjective opinion.

Gus
29th-January-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Will
At the end of the day it does come down to subjective opinion.


Well .... yes and no. If you take your statement to its logical conclusion there would be no point judging anything because evryone could say that the end decision was purely "subjective".

Without trying to sound elitest, there are dancers at the top end of the game who know enough about the dance and what it SHOULD be, that can watch a couple dance and come to an assesment of who 'good' that couple are. From this basis, a panel of experienced judges can make an informed and cohesive decision as to who is first, second and third in a competition.

Or is that not what you were trying to say?

My main question over the judges outside Ceroc is that a fair number of them seem to be more Swing based rather than Modern Jive based.......
:what:

Dreadful Scathe
29th-January-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Will
. At the end of the day it does come down to subjective opinion.

The only guarantee in life is that - At the end of the day, its night.

unless you live in Alaska, or Finland or er..never mind then.

TheTramp
29th-January-2003, 11:06 AM
I thought that the only guarentees in life were death and taxes. :D

Steve

Gadget
29th-January-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I thought that the only guarentees in life were death and taxes. :D
Well I'm not dead yet, but I can verify the Taxes.


Originally posted by Gus
Well .... yes and no. If you take your statement to its logical conclusion there would be no point judging anything because evryone could say that the end decision was purely "subjective".
By entering a competition, you are agreeing to be judged by the panel of judges - if you enter a 'Foxtrot' competition, you expect to be judged on how you dance 'Foxtrot' in comparison to how the other compettitors dance it.
But you also have to accept that the judges opinion of what a 'foxtrot' actually is, is subjective and what you will be judged on - not what you think it should be.
Yes, competitions and judging are subjective, but by entering the competition you are agreeing to be judged by several subjective opinions that collectivly define the competition. (That is why there is more than one judge)

This is why I think that the scoring should be published after the competition and who is judging before it. The dancers could form their own opinions of what each judge looks for, what they mark down and what they mark up.


My main question over the judges outside Ceroc is that a fair number of them seem to be more Swing based rather than Modern Jive based.......
So the main problem is the definition between 'Swing' and 'Modern Jive' - obviously your definition is different to the judges. So.... where does that difference lie ?

PeterL
29th-January-2003, 02:44 PM
It seems to me that there is some obvious dissatisfaction in previous decisions from the general tone of this thread, not being good enough to be of real competition standard I wouldn't even consider questioning judges decisions, however I would be interested in knowing where these dissatisfactions come from and the history behind them.

Have you seen some obvious bad decisions? etc.

Or is it just a devil's advocate type thread.

Gus
29th-January-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
So the main problem is the definition between 'Swing' and 'Modern Jive' - obviously your definition is different to the judges. So.... where does that difference lie ?

Sorry ... I think you may misunderstand what I meant. At Blackpool last year, of the 7 judges, Nigel & Nina, James & Bridget are very much Swing/Lindy based. From their dance styles, I would also say that Simon & Marialene also have a leaning towards Swing/Lindy. I'm not saying that they would then be biased towards a competitor who then danced in a Lindy style, but I'm just observing that only one of the judges was an out-and-out Modern Jiver.

Gus
29th-January-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
It seems to me that there is some obvious dissatisfaction in previous decisions from the general tone of this thread, ........... however I would be interested in knowing where these dissatisfactions come from and the history behind them.
.

As with all judging competitions, there have been some decsiions that have caused no small amount of concern ... however, I think this thread was focusing more on what criteria will be applied to select the judges for the Advanced and Open categories of the Ceroc Champs. Judges tend to be selected from the ranks of the better competitiors ... but Ceroc Instructors have previously been prevented from competing ......

PeterL
29th-January-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Gus
but Ceroc Instructors have previously been prevented from competing ......

This sort of implies that Ceroc instructors would make the best competitors. I don't know that is the case.
Teaching and competing are far different skills.

SwingSwingSwing
29th-January-2003, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Sorry ... I think you may misunderstand what I meant. At Blackpool last year, of the 7 judges, Nigel & Nina, James & Bridget are very much Swing/Lindy based. From their dance styles, I would also say that Simon & Marialene also have a leaning towards Swing/Lindy. I'm not saying that they would then be biased towards a competitor who then danced in a Lindy style, but I'm just observing that only one of the judges was an out-and-out Modern Jiver.

Gus, why should this matter? Nigel & Nina are recognised as expert Modern Jivers and are more than qualifed to judge a Modern Jive event (IMHO).

James and Bridget are perhaps more Swing orientated than N&N but again they have years of experience of teaching their Modern Jive-like JazzJive stuff and should know good Modern Jive when they see it.


SwingSwingSwing

Dreadful Scathe
29th-January-2003, 03:04 PM
and surely people who take dance to the level of the C2D judges are the best people to judge an amateur event like C2D ?

Gus
29th-January-2003, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by SwingSwingSwing
Gus, why should this matter? Nigel & Nina are recognised as expert Modern Jivers and are more than qualifed to judge a Modern Jive event (IMHO).
SwingSwingSwing

Hey .... I'm not having a go at them ... but don't you think that for a Modern Jive event there must be some more Modern Jive specialists who are competent to judge?

As I've said before, I thought that the 2002 C2D line up of judges put all other dance competitions to shame ... but I wonder who else there is of a similar standard?

Gus
29th-January-2003, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
and surely people who take dance to the level of the C2D judges are the best people to judge an amateur event like C2D ?

Daft question ... but whats "amateur" about C2D?

PeterL
29th-January-2003, 03:09 PM
I don't envy the job of any judges. It seems to me that whoever is chosen and whatever there decisions, some will not be happy.

Its the old you can't please all the people all the time.

SwingSwingSwing
29th-January-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Hey .... I'm not having a go at them ... but don't you think that for a Modern Jive event there must be some more Modern Jive specialists who are competent to judge?

There probably are more Modern Jive specialists who are competent to judge (TheTramp possibly). But C2D also have a Lindy section. So getting judges who can do adjudicate on Modern Jive and Lindy brings their costs down!

SwingSwingSwing

Gus
29th-January-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
I don't envy the job of any judges. It seems to me that whoever is chosen and whatever there decisions, some will not be happy.

Its the old you can't please all the people all the time.

Agreed ... but that reality can't be used as an excuse to drop the standrad of judging. If you think judging is hard, try being on the opposite side of the coin. There will be people there who will have been training for the last three months, putting their profesional reputations on th line .... and it all gets decisede in two dances. No matter what level of effort goes into the dancers performance, everything relies on the competetnce of the judging.

PeterL
29th-January-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Agreed ... but that reality can't be used as an excuse to drop the standrad of judging.


Originally posted by Gus

As with all judging competitions, there have been some decsiions that have caused no small amount of concern ... however, I think this thread was focusing more on what criteria will be applied to select the judges for the Advanced and Open categories of the Ceroc Champs. Judges tend to be selected from the ranks of the better competitiors ... but Ceroc Instructors have previously been prevented from competing ......

So what is your point? Are you saying that the standard of judging has dropped or the criteria have dropped or are you saying everything is fine and just trying to raise a debate?

Gus
29th-January-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
So what is your point? Are you saying that the standard of judging has dropped or the criteria have dropped or are you saying everything is fine and just trying to raise a debate?

Well the point you quoted was just to say that I get a bit hacked off at the 'its all subjective" line ... personally (and this is not as ODA) ... I think thats far too simplistic and demeans the skills of the judges.

Re standards .... well, again only a personal view, I would venture that the standard of judges at C2D is higher than that at Ceroc .... but I was open to be convinced otherwise if Ceroc HQ would acutaly be forthcoming about who are their judges and their credentials ..... of course to date they have not been.

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 03:52 PM
Not having a competitive bone in my body (other than to constantly better MYSELF), I don't understand the need:

(a) to compete

(b) to win

(c) to preempt judging criteria.

Could someone please explain this to me?

I can, however, totally identify with the desire to PERFORM.

Is there a difference?

Lindsay
29th-January-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
I can, however, totally identify with the desire to PERFORM.
Is there a difference?

Go gal!!!

Re. difference: coming off the floor on a total high after competing, and still buzzin' an hour later when you discover you came last???
:sick:

Looking forward to Sat. btw... is 'Aer Lingus' allowed again this time?

Dreadful Scathe
29th-January-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
Not having a competitive bone in my body (other than to constantly better MYSELF), I don't understand the need:

(a) to compete
(b) to win
(c) to preempt judging criteria.

Could someone please explain this to me?
I can, however, totally identify with the desire to PERFORM.
Is there a difference?

Are you by any chance THE Aleks who did the splits at Route66 and won a prize? I can see why you put perform in caps :)

As for your questions: Humans like being good at something, it makes them feel good. Also its not a sin to try and impress other humans :). This applys to every dancer., a competition is a simple exercise of fun comparison with their peers for some people and a "fight to the death" challenge for others. Nothing wrong with competitive spirit, but like all things it can be taken too far and at the expense of others. cue philisophical debate about winning competitions being at the expense of the "losers" :D

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 04:22 PM
Anything you like is allowed, provided that you don't intentionally set out to offend anyone.

G will be back from skiing so go for it....and show me how to do it too.....(but be aware of the dangers of airstepping!!!)

Incidentally, do you come down with a bump after discovering you came last? Maybe I just avoid competing for that reason.....

PeterL
29th-January-2003, 04:24 PM
(a) to compete
(b) to win
(c) to preempt judging criteria.



I have no problem with a & b it is c that annoys me.

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
[B]Are you by any chance THE Aleks who did the splits at Route66 and won a prize? I can see why you put perform in caps :)



Maybe you could say I won a prize for the splits doing the can-can during a FUN dance competition....but the real prize for me was that everyone stopped to watch - that was better than any stage performance I have ever been involved in.

TheTramp
29th-January-2003, 04:47 PM
Hmmm....

So, does this mean that if I'd done the splits at Route66, I'd have got a prize??

Steve

PeterL
29th-January-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Hmmm....

So, does this mean that if I'd done the splits at Route66, I'd have got a prize??

Steve


Only if you looked as good as Aleks.

The only prize Iwould personally recieve for it would be a trip to Accident & emergency.

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Hmmm....

So, does this mean that if I'd done the splits at Route66, I'd have got a prize??

Steve

No idea - pls refer to the competition judge (Dance Demon, I suspect).

I believe WE won the prize (I had a partner, who also attempted the splits) because we were the only couple left on the dance floor for the whole of the can-can track, effectively negating the fact it was a "competition" totally.

Dreadful Scathe
29th-January-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Aleks

Maybe you could say I won a prize for the splits doing the can-can during a FUN dance competition.

I didnt suggest it was anything else - i was just highlighting that you know how to perform. You certainly would be good in a competition if you ever did enter one. All credit to your partner whos instant reaction to you doing the splits was to copy you - ouch.

:)

TheTramp
29th-January-2003, 05:05 PM
Hmmm.....

So, did I dance with you then Aleks when I was at the Route66 party on the 9th??

I was the bald, fat, ugly one with a strange accent if you were there.....

Steve

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 05:12 PM
Can't remember dancing with anyone ugly....and I have just been reminded that I wasn't even there on the 9th......

I was at the Edinburgh Ceroc Christmas/New Year party (with hot pants and fishnets)...were you there?

Dr. Feelgood
29th-January-2003, 05:17 PM
Just to clarify things, Mr. Tramp, Aleks's performance was at the Route 66 Xmas party - not the event you were at on Jan 17th.

But don't worry, you can see the pictures at www.route66jive.com (http://www.route66jive.com)

:cheers:

Dr. Feelgood
29th-January-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Aleks

Maybe you could say I won a prize for the splits doing the can-can during a FUN dance competition....but the real prize for me was that everyone stopped to watch - that was better than any stage performance I have ever been involved in.

Absolutely. It was a fun 'competition' and very different from the 'Ceroc Championships' as everyone who was at the Route 66 Xmas party will know.
In fact, couples were initially eliminated purely on the basis of what items of clothing, jewellery etc. they were wearing.
Once there were three couples left the issue became seeing which couple was game enough to have a shot at all the different types of dance suggested by the various musical clips they were presented with - locomotion, grease, cancan etc.
Very soon there was only one couple left, Pete and Aleks, who kept going until the end. They got their very well deserved prize not simply because they were the only couple left but because they entered completely into the spirit of all the musical styles they were faced with and gave all the punters watching a very enjoyable 3 minutes!

:cheers:

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
I didnt suggest it was anything else - i was just highlighting that you know how to perform.

:)

With a grandfather who was a band master and ballroom dancer, a mother who danced at Covent Garden in the late 60s/early 70s and then chose to teach and 28 years of classical ballet training........thanks for the compliment.

In my house you had to "perform" to be noticed!!

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
Absolutely. It was a fun 'competition' and very different from the 'Ceroc Championships' as everyone who was at the Route 66 Xmas party will know.
In fact, couples were initially eliminated purely on the basis of what items of clothing, jewellery etc. they were wearing.
Once there were three couples left the issue became seeing which couple was game enough to have a shot at all the different types of dance suggested by the various musical clips they were presented with - locomotion, grease, cancan etc.
Very soon there was only one couple left, Pete and Aleks, who kept going until the end. They got their very well deserved prize not simply because they were the only couple left but because they entered completely into the spirit of all the musical styles they were faced with and gave all the punters watching a very enjoyable 3 minutes!

:cheers:

And weren't we absolutely useless at the locomotion and twist!!!

Dr. Feelgood
29th-January-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
And weren't we absolutely useless at the locomotion and twist!!!

Well, it looked good to me (and everyone else I've no doubt) (although I've no idea how to 'do the locomotion' myself...) :grin:


:cheers:

Jayne
29th-January-2003, 06:17 PM
I can't believe I'm about to defend Gus... Oh well, here goes...


Originally posted by Aleks
Not having a competitive bone in my body (other than to constantly better MYSELF), I don't understand the need:

(a) to compete

(b) to win

(c) to preempt judging criteria.

Could someone please explain this to me?



We had a discussion on the forum before about how we decide to go to the workshops we go to. Ok so some of this decision is based on recommendation and "herd instinct" but if the teachers are completely unknown to you then you have to base your decision on something else - commonly it's on their credentials. In the case of teachers one way of assessing their ability is how long they've been dancing and at what level they were (are) dancing at. (yes I know that this doesn't mean that they'll be good teachers but that takes us off the point...) One way of deciding how good the teachers are is to look at their competition success: in this situation competitors are kinda trying to put something on their CV or giving themselves a selling point. As for why you would want to preempt judging criteria - it increases your chance of success. That's why you go through mock papers before you sit an exam - you learn what the examiners are looking for in answers and then you answer in that style to get the highest marks.

Of course some people are just competitive. End of story.

Jayne
:nice:

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
I've no idea how to 'do the locomotion' myself...) :grin:


:cheers:

My point exactly.....I was copying the other couples, which is why I ran into trouble when I had my back to them and it all went to pot!

Gus
29th-January-2003, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
I can't believe I'm about to defend Gus... Oh well, here goes...

That it has come to this ... the Mighty ODA being defended by TrixiBell:tears: :tears: :wink:

Sorry guys but I fell no inclination to apologise for being competitive. Regardless of the need for teachers to get a reputation, a lot of people who take part in activities apprecaite the competitive aspect, wheras other treat them as a past-time .. e.g. badminton, chess, karate. Neither side has the rigyt to critisise the other.

another point is that it is through the (self-induced) pain of improving ones own dance standard that the overall dance standard is improved and new moves are produced ... and this benefits Ceroc as a whole ..... so where is the downside? People comment about dancers taking it too seriously ... to which I would say that the few dancers I've noticed who could be so labelled aren't competition dancers ... just ego's on legs!:na:

Will
29th-January-2003, 07:27 PM
Nice one Jayne

It is of course important that we know what the judging criteria is, which is why Ceroc and other organisations give you guidelines as to what the judges are looking for.

And just so that naught Gus can't mis-represent my comments about Ceroc judging being subjective opinion........

If I was watching a 100 metre race and they declared the guy who came in 5th as the winner for no good reason, despite the fact that 4 other competitors ran faster without cheating or anything, I would be the first to have a go at the judges. But where dancing is concerned, the result is not absolute and can be open to subjective opinion... hec that's why you have a panel of judges and not just one. I bet it's very rare that all the judges on a panel come up with the same 3 placings.

bradders
29th-January-2003, 07:35 PM
Sorry for not coming back sooner to questions on Judges at Ceroc Champs and the Open category.
I don't check in too often.
The Judges are chosen from the 100 or so CTA current qualified Ceroc Teachers.
They are normally listed in the programme of the day with a short profile and a photograph.
They have not been chosen for this years Comp yet.
They are chosen by George who runs the Dance Department.
We have not had an easy way of advertising who the judges would be before the day in the past, but now we have our flashy new website I will probably put the list with pictures and profiles as will go in the programme on the site once they have been selected.
As to criteria for selection, well they have always been a selection of more experienced ceroc Teachers and a sprinkling of less experienced ones to give them experience.
Basically this is a Ceroc Competition and so we use Ceroc Teachers.
We are not saying they are the best Judges in the world, (and nor would they!) but the CTA is the facility that we have for that purpose. I think they have done well in the past overall.
We have never had specialist guest judges but that may be worth considering for the future.
With regard to judging aerials, well they won't be. If a couple choose to do aerials that fine, good luck to them, but they are judged on the crieria set out in the rules, which are much wider than just 'good at aerials'. If someone wants to know what they will be judged then they just have to read the rules.
By the way judging, rules and aerials are not my specialist subjects.
If you have specific questions regarding Judges and/or rules for this competition please send an email to queries@cerocchamps.com for the attention of George.
I like this discussion though, it stimulates thought and will lead to the rethinking of certain aspects of the competition and hopefully improvement.
When you're in the thick of organising an event like this, with time constraints, the wood and trees all merge and "what we did last year will do" metality slips in.
So more feedback and more discussion please and any more questions?
Will never be able to please everybody though!?!?!?!?


:cool:

Gus
29th-January-2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by Will
........I bet it's very rare that all the judges on a panel come up with the same 3 placings.

Possibly .. but in some competitions its more clear cut than others. At Ceroc Scotland Champs I think most of us judges agreed on the advanced section., I've done a number of DWAS and Double trouble competitions where the final decision has been fairly easy ... at least in the final.

I accept your point that the process will always rely on a degree of personal subjectivity ... but given the experience of the judges ... I'm far more comfortable with the likes of N&N etc making that call than I would be for some vague teacher whom I've never heard of. ..... and no thats not having a go at CTA .... merely a personal opinion.

Aleks
29th-January-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Sorry guys but I fell no inclination to apologise for being competitive. Regardless of the need for teachers to get a reputation, a lot of people who take part in activities apprecaite the competitive aspect, wheras other treat them as a past-time .. e.g. badminton, chess, karate. Neither side has the rigyt to critisise the other.


I was just curious to know and try to understand people's motivation for competing, as I have none. My only motivation for competing would be to show my own style of dancing, rather than seeking to conform to pre-set criteria.

John S
29th-January-2003, 09:13 PM
As someone who is always happy to compete, without having the slightest chance or ambition of winning (ie, I suffer from a sort of "Brechin City in the Scottish Cup" syndrome) I have a slightly different take on the judging debate.

Most of those who take part in any major competition, and who pay exactly the same entrance fee as the stars who might actually harbour hopes of winning, let's not forget, have a much more limited ambition (as well as having a bit of fun), namely to achieve a personal best - whether that's to get past the 1st round, 2nd round or whatever.

But inevitably the floor is very crowded for the initial rounds, the judges have only a very limited time to make their choices, and sod's law dictates that after a brilliant 2 minutes a disastrous move happens right under the nose of a patrolling judge - result an early exit and disappointment (again).

There's no easy answer I can think of, other than to accept that life can be unfair and the result of a dance competition doesn't really matter a jot - so although I do agree with Gus that those who have practiced for months deserve the best, so do the rest of us!

And no, I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make either.
:sad:

Carla
30th-January-2003, 12:00 PM
I think you have to REALLY stand out in the preliminary rounds and wear bright clothes, smile at the judges, etc. Where you dance probably affects how you do too, i.e. if you are lost in the middle then you have little chance of being seen.

Some of us are born to shine, and how we chose to do so is up to the individual. Some need the recognition of being 'the best', need to prove that we are liked and good at something. Others are happy to take part and don't need to shine.

Gus
30th-January-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by John S

Most of those who take part in any major competition, and who pay exactly the same entrance fee as the stars who might actually harbour hopes of winning, let's not forget, have a much more limited ambition (as well as having a bit of fun), namely to achieve a personal best - whether that's to get past the 1st round, 2nd round or whatever.

But inevitably the floor is very crowded for the initial rounds, the judges have only a very limited time to make their choices:sad:

John ... excellent point. The one thing that did dismay me with the Ceroc Champs constructive critisism to follow) was how packed the rounds were! At C2D there is a bigger dancefloor and less couples ... making it a far easier job.

The exception of course if the Dance with a Stranger ... where tradition demands that you hide from the judges to avoid the dreaded tap on the shoulder ... the change at C2D for this year will call for new tactics:wink:

I think your point re the 'slient majority' on non-stars is also valid. I think that the real feel of a competition is only partly down to the few who are really in with a chance. Some of the best times come from seeing dancers who are there with the 'what the heck' attitiude and make it a great day .... who knows, sometimes its one of the non-stars who ends up in the Final!:grin:

Dr. Feelgood
30th-January-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Carla
I think you have to REALLY stand out in the preliminary rounds and wear bright clothes, smile at the judges, etc.

Perhaps some general truth in that...

but I remember one lucky dip contestant in the Scottish competition for whom bright clothes and judge-smiling were the cause of his downfall. Perhaps he went that little bit too far :grin:

Gadget
30th-January-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
I was just curious to know and try to understand people's motivation for competing, as I have none.
What's your motivation for dancing then? - Can't that be the same motivation for competing?
Why not compete just to have the chance to dance with new people or see other people dance that you haven't before? Watching 'the best' and seeing if you want to addapt any of their style into yours? Seeing others doing fancy moves to inspire your dancing?

Competing does not have to be about winning - it is sometimes more a social thing where you meet up with people from different geographical areas that you haven't seen for a long time.


Originally posted by Gus
Possibly .. but in some competitions its more clear cut than others. At Ceroc Scotland Champs I think most of us judges agreed on the advanced section., I've done a number of DWAS and Double trouble competitions where the final decision has been fairly easy ... at least in the final.
I would think that if the judging got easier as the heats progressed then the judging up to that point is poor: The whole point is that the weaker {for want of a better word} dancers get eliminated first, leaving dancers of higher calaber.
When the semi/finals are reached, then the competitors should be fairly close in ability, and the judge's jobs should be harder because the dancers are so good.

{I have seen very few exceptions, where one individual just shines above everyone - and in these cases, it's almost a foregone conclusion and the difficult decision is in the placing's of the other competitors}

PeterL
30th-January-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

Competing does not have to be about winning - it is sometimes more a social thing where you meet up with people from different geographical areas that you haven't seen for a long time.



I agree totally with this and it is people that take it overly seriously to the point of complaining about judging criteris before the competition takes place, that puts people off competing for fun. They feel they are not good enough to compete because they don't practice every day hiring dance space etc.

Modern Jive has a very open and welcoming structure, it would be a shame if the competitions became to intimidating to us mere mortals who want to have a go just for a laugh and a good weekend.

I think Aleks wasn't saying don't enter competitions, my take on what she said was have a go enjoy it, if you don't win, get over it, it's only dancing.

Jayne
30th-January-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Why not compete just to have the chance to dance with new people or see other people dance that you haven't before? Watching 'the best' and seeing if you want to addapt any of their style into yours? Seeing others doing fancy moves to inspire your dancing?


For me that's the whole point of going to competitions - but that doesn't explain the need to compete. Surely you get these things from watching other dancers and from the freestyle sessions - what do you get from competing that you don't get from watching and freestyling?

Jayne
:nice:

Carla
30th-January-2003, 03:10 PM
Competing???

Is it about recognition, prizes, and status, or maybe more the personal satisfaction of taking part and doing well?
:confused:

Gadget
30th-January-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
For me that's the whole point of going to competitions - but that doesn't explain the need to compete. Surely you get these things from watching other dancers and from the freestyle sessions - what do you get from competing that you don't get from watching and freestyling?
But you only get to watch and freestyle at partys and local classes; competitions tend to draw on a larger catchment and have things like 'showcases' where you can watch something (and/or someone) other than your normal crowd.

As to the psychological need to compete, I would presume that it's mainly as a form of non-bias self-assesment; the easiest way to judge your own ability is to compare it with someone else's.

(Of course, some people try to select competitions or events where the judge's bias is favoured towards them or the level of competitor is expected to be lower than them - those tend to be the over-competative egotists who are only looking for trophys.{IMHO})

Will
30th-January-2003, 03:37 PM
This debate about Dance judging has rumbled on and on. So I'd like to offer an Equivalent comparison to take the heat out of the debate.

Take Pro Wrestling for example. A sport / entertainment consisting of 2 people (in the main), grappling it out infront of a panel of judges.

If you become a wrestler, you wanna compete, you wanna win, you wanna be the best.

But also wrestling is a great pastime where you meet lots of people and it is fantastic excercise - I mean look how fit most of them are!

I think Ceroc has everthing that wrestling has to offer and more, and like wrestling, competition is important, but it isn't everything!

PeterL
30th-January-2003, 03:38 PM
I always wondered about the ladies half nelson.

Aleks
30th-January-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
What's your motivation for dancing then? -

Dancing (in virtually any form) is as much a part of me as eating or breathing....I "fly" when I dance. I am just as happy dancing in the kitchen as on the dance floor.

There were three generations of dancers in the house when I was small and as soon as I could stand/walk I wanted to join in.

I suppose you could liken it to a "fix" - the adrenalin/seratonin rush of moving with the beat, depending on the mood of the music.

The added benefit of attending at a Ceroc venue is the opportunity to be with people who love dancing as much as I do.

Gadget
30th-January-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
...The added benefit of attending at a Ceroc venue is the opportunity to be with people who love dancing as much as I do.
So why can't those who compete, compete just as another chance to dance {no C2D pun intended} - why does the love of dancing have to be exclusive to competing? Just because it's a competition, it dosn't mean that the participants enjoy dancing any less - for most, they enjoy it more!

Will: Bad anology. just bad. <shake head> a more appropriate one would be Judo or any of the 1 on 1 martial arts. Wrestling!?

Lou
30th-January-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Will: Bad anology. just bad. <shake head> a more appropriate one would be Judo or any of the 1 on 1 martial arts. Wrestling!?
Oh come on, Gadget - just think of the chance to see your fellow forumites clad in spandex!

PeterL
30th-January-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
So why can't those who compete, compete just as another chance to dance {no C2D pun intended}


It's not the competing I have a problem with. It's people that take it so seriously.

It's the American attitude of be the best, second place is just not good enough, the bad sportmanship involved in questioning judges decisions. etc.

I guess I just like to beleive that everyone that takes part is a winner.

1. For having the nerve.
2. For enjoying themselves.

However when a public forum starts questioning judges and criteria and the like, simple folk like myself are put off dancing comps as they wonder if everyone takes it really seriously.

And at the end of the day if it wasn't for the everyday have fun dancer like myself then these people trying to build up cv's to teach would be out of jobs.

Aspirations are fine, but sportmanship is also important and losing gracefully without question is far better than winning in my opinion. Just come back next year with more experience.

C2D provide the venue the competition and the rules, you don't have to go but if you do then you agree to abide by there rules and there judges decisions.
The same goes for ceroc competitions.

There is room for different competitions with different criteria and everyones definition of what is the best will be different. If you feel so strongly that a competition is wrong then boycott it, or start your own competition with what you believe to be the correct criteria.

There is also nothing wrong with findingout criteria so that you can swot up just like an exam, but don't question or argue with the rules set out or the judges decisions.

The judges are human and will make mistakes but that is life and after all it is only dancing.


rant over

Jayne
30th-January-2003, 05:14 PM
Peter,

out of interest, have you been to a dancing comp?

Jayne
:nice:

PeterL
30th-January-2003, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Jayne
Peter,

out of interest, have you been to a dancing comp?

Jayne
:nice:


Yes I went to the Scottish comps, which was great fun. I entered the lucky dip, went out first round and had a great time.

My problem isn't from experience of dancing or a venue but from the tone and subject matter in this thread.

I am also entering the C2D intermediate I hope, and fully expect to be out in the first round but I will have a great time and hopefully return year after year.

Jayne
30th-January-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
Yes I went to the Scottish comps, which was great fun. I entered the lucky dip, went out first round and had a great time.

My problem isn't from experience of dancing or a venue but from the tone and subject matter in this thread.

I am also entering the C2D intermediate I hope, and fully expect to be out in the first round but I will have a great time and hopefully return year after year.

Just wondered...

Cheers
J :nice:

Bill
30th-January-2003, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Will

I think Ceroc has everthing that wrestling has to offer and more, and like wrestling, competition is important, but it isn't everything!

Good point ! But are you saying that Ceroc comps are rigged in the same way wrestling is ??? :rolleyes: :wink:

I've not been on the Forum for ages and I have to disagree with the complaints that the discussion is heated !

I'm quite surprised at how low key and reasonable everyone is knowing how strongly some of the contributors feel about the subject.

My sole intention when entering my first few comps in London was simply to move when the music started , not to panic and hoepfully to have fun. I didn't even look at the criteria for judging and still haven't paid that much attention to it because at Blackpool and in London I've never expected to get too far.

But I understand why those dancers who want/need a title to help make a name as a teacher want to know what the criteria is and who is judging. That doesn't mean the rest of us can't have fun and do the best we can but they have different reasons and a different agenda from most of us.

And I agree that the judges shoudl make the marks know because of the balance of objectivity and subjectivity. We all like slightly different styles and I can appreciate that someone is a good dancer even though I might not like their style. I could never dance like Dan - nor have the body :sick: - but it's obvious that the man can dance !

I've said several times on other threads that there is always the danger of some bias in any form of judging - whether it be ice- skating or dancing ( or whatever) and the dance scene can be rather 'incestuous' with all the top dancers and judges pretty much on first name terms and in some cases good friends. So no surprises that some dancers might be wary about some decisions.

With a group of 6 judges then any bias should be eliminated - but there can still be some concern over decisions if it's clear that some judges have more than a passing interest in some competitors eg close friend, a regular 'student' etc.. I did suggest a while ago that judges should declare any interests - especially for a final but I think I was a lone voice there.

I'm really not sure why I compete but I am looking forward to seeing lots of folk I know at Blackpool and having fun - and as we haven't started practicing yet for the double trouble or the Advanced we will be going down simply to have fun. :D :cheers:

Dreadful Scathe
30th-January-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Lou
Oh come on, Gadget - just think of the chance to see your fellow forumites clad in spandex!

Im not sure Id look good in spandex - mind you Bill and Fran should consider it for their next Competition ;)

PeterL
30th-January-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Bill


I've not been on the Forum for ages and I have to disagree with the complaints that the discussion is heated !

I'm quite surprised at how low key and reasonable everyone is knowing how strongly some of the contributors feel about the subject.



Bill I have to bow down to a decent argument.
Plus I love a good argument(debate) though not as much as dancing.

I did post this early on in the thread


It seems to me that there is some obvious dissatisfaction in previous decisions from the general tone of this thread, not being good enough to be of real competition standard I wouldn't even consider questioning judges decisions, however I would be interested in knowing where these dissatisfactions come from and the history behind them.

Have you seen some obvious bad decisions? etc.

Or is it just a devil's advocate type thread.




To this I didn't really get a reply I would still be interested even and if people don't want to post this sort of thing publically. That I understand.

PeterL
30th-January-2003, 07:29 PM
I would like to point out that my arguments on this thread are based solely on my own experiences.

I believe that it is a strength (unlike politicians) to listen to the opinion of others and when that opinion makes sense change your mind.

I haven't fully changed my mind on this issue but I recognise that there is a lot at stake for some people and some deep feeling on the issue.

I also guess it is best to offer opinions before the decisions are made and the venue managers can evaluate that advise and use it in there decision process than to have sour grapes once the decisions are made.

This has been a very interestin debate and although opinions differ on this forum. We all have one thing in common- A love of dancing.

heres hoping that most people are happy with any judging at this years events and despite that we all have a good time and plenty of dances.:cheers:

Gus
31st-January-2003, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by PeterL
It's the American attitude of be the best, second place is just not good enough, the bad sportmanship involved in questioning judges decisions. etc........Aspirations are fine, but sportmanship is also important and losing gracefully without question is far better than winning in my opinion

Interesting. Got any examples of bad sportmanship? I've only heard about the one incident in the seven events I've spectated/competed in.....:confused:




And at the end of the day if it wasn't for the everyday have fun dancer like myself then these people trying to build up cv's to teach would be out of jobs.


...and some might argue (ODA :nice: ) that if it wasn't for the teachers trying to develop new styles and new moves that the everyday dancer wouldn't ahve new moves and workshops to enjoy :wink:

Gadget
31st-January-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by PeterL
It's not the competing I have a problem with. It's people that take it so seriously.
Why should their attitude have any bearing on your decision to compete? Let them take it seriously, worry about placeings, judging criteria, how many sequens you can have on an outfit before it become ott... All you need to do is dance, have fun and appreciate the other competitor's dancing.


It's the American attitude of be the best, second place is just not good enough, the bad sportmanship involved in questioning judges decisions. etc.
<snip>
Aspirations are fine, but sportmanship is also important and losing gracefully without question is far better than winning in my opinion. Just come back next year with more experience.
So having drive and a "thirst for first" is un-sportsman-like? Because you enter a competition with the desire to win does not automatically make you a bad competitor or involve bad sportsmanship - in fact I would argue that questioning the judging (esp your own marks), would give you a better understanding of the judges perception and lead to better dancing; they are after all selected because of their expertise.


Origionaly posted by Lou
Oh come on, Gadget - just think of the chance to see your fellow forumites clad in spandex!
OK so my daugher may be named 'Logan'; that does not mean that blue and yellow lycra is my thing!
{I now have a mental image of some of the regular folks in 'comic book' spandex costumes. :what: ... and it won't go away! :tears:}

PeterL
31st-January-2003, 04:28 AM
I will quote my last 2 posts
Bill I have to bow down to a decent argument.
I believe that it is a strength (unlike politicians) to listen to the opinion of others and when that opinion makes sense change your mind.
I haven't fully changed my mind on this issue but I recognise that there is a lot at stake for some people and some deep feeling on the issue.

I also guess it is best to offer opinions before the decisions are made and the venue managers can evaluate that advise and use it in there decision process than to have sour grapes once the decisions are made. By making these statements I was saying that your arguments had swayed my opinion and that although I do not totally agree with everything that you guys say, I nowagree with enoughof it to back down on my earlier stated point of view.

DavidB
2nd-February-2003, 04:24 PM
You go away on holiday for a few days, and it takes hour to catch up!!!

A few thoughts

In answer to the question I was asked - in WCS comps in the US (and in Ballroom competitions across the world) judges have to be qualified. You have to be a qualified dance teacher, and then, especially for major competitions, be a qualified judge. This means at least attending a judging workshop, and usually gaining experience in judging minor competitions. (These workshops are open to competitors as well.) For Ballroom I think you have to take additional exams as well??

You also need experience. Most judges are ex-competitors. They also judge a lot - in West Coast Swing in the US, and in Ballroom, there are several competitions every weekend. It is quite easy to get the experience. In Modern Jive, it would take years to get the same expertise

Qualifications
There are only 2 organisations that have qualifications - Ceroc and Leroc. I cannot argue with Ceroc only allowing CTA-qualified dancers to judge, (or Leroc with whatever their qualification is) because who can say that any other modern jive teacher is more qualified? For any non-qualified dancer to be considered as a judge, then they would have to be generally recognised as being a good dancer, who knows a lot about jive, who has a good reputation, willing to do a pretty thankless job, not connected with any competitor, and who doesn't want to compete. That rules a lot of people out.

Swing Judges
I think most organisers still have problems finding enough suitable judges to worry about loading the panel with a particular preference. Yes ideally you might want a panel consisting of modern jivers whose individual styles emcompassed swing, latin, hip-hop, blues, etc, but there just aren't enough people out there yet.

Publishing
The only thing I would argue for is that
- the criteria are published in advance
- the compilation of the results takes into account these criteria
- the judges marks are published after the competition. They can be anonymous on the day (ie judge A, B, C, D etc), but I think the names should be available at some point.

I don't care what the criteria are - if the men get bonus marks for wearing a pink tutu then fine - just tell people in advance (then if the Tramp decides to enter, I can leave the country!!)

All the discussions about past competitions are pointless in that the results will never be changed. But they are also worthwhile if they mean future competitions don't get the same comments.

Critique
At some competitions in the US, there is an extra 'judge' that doesn't score, but will make notes on each couple. These notes are made available to each couple afterwards. It is to help people improve by getting an impartial view of their dancing.

Why Compete
As for why people compete - I don't care. If somebody is prepared to put on a show for me, I'll watch. It doesn't matter if they are out there to win, to have fun, or just for a laugh. They have put in the time and energy to compete, and I'll show them the courtesy of watching. The middle of the floor can be a lonely place (I know!!!), and it can also be the most rewarding place in the world. Everyone deserves the latter.

David

TheTramp
2nd-February-2003, 04:50 PM
I don't care what the criteria are - if the men get bonus marks for wearing a pink tutu then fine - just tell people in advance (then if the Tramp decides to enter, I can leave the country!!)Well....actually David. You know that C2D are awarding a prize for the best dressed competitor on the day..... :D

Do you want me to list a few airline companies for you?? :rolleyes:

Steve

Tiggerbabe
2nd-February-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
You go away on holiday for a few days, and it takes hour to catch up!!!

Well that'll teach you! :wink:



Critique
At some competitions in the US, there is an extra 'judge' that doesn't score, but will make notes on each couple. These notes are made available to each couple afterwards. It is to help people improve by getting an impartial view of their dancing.

David

Wow! What a great idea! As someone who enters the competition (and I have only been to 3) hoping to do better than we(myself and my partner) did the time before this would be great. At least it would help you understand where you were going wrong and if you felt so inclined you could fix it! Ok - I realise it wouldn't be an in depth analysis due to the time alloted to each couple, but it would be better than just getting put out in the first round without any ideas as to how to improve.
:cheers:

Gus
2nd-February-2003, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Qualifications
There are only 2 organisations that have qualifications - Ceroc and Leroc. David

Dave, once more an excellent synopsis. The only point I possibly may take issue with wa the above phrase. I was under the impression (though I may be wrong) that both Blitz and Mo'Jive have teacher qualifications ..... minor point in an otherwise excellent posting.

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-February-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Sheena
(and I have only been to 3)

says a lot for your learning curve Sheena , after winning nearly everything at the last one :)

Bill
3rd-February-2003, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
At some competitions in the US, there is an extra 'judge' that doesn't score, but will make notes on each couple. These notes are made available to each couple afterwards. It is to help people improve by getting an impartial view of their dancing.

David

Agree with Sheena on this as well. Would love to have someone give me some feedback and some tips. Having watched some footage from London a couple of years ago a few friendly words might have been very helpful :na: :rolleyes:

I might complain about some decisions and possible bias in some results but as David says......a pretty thankless task and one I would certainly be happy to live without so a huge thanks to those who do agree to do it.

Debster
5th-February-2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
...
but I remember one lucky dip contestant in the Scottish competition for whom bright clothes and judge-smiling were the cause of his downfall. Perhaps he went that little bit too far :grin:

Oooh - do tell!??! I didn't hear about that. How could that possibly be your downfall?!

And some of you ask why we compete? So we can get on Will's top ten list!! :cool: (We love to be loved) Of course I did have to dance with Mr Wong to get there ;)

Will
14th-February-2003, 01:10 PM
Debstar, you'd be on my top ten list anyway, regardless of Mr Wong. (who is dancing in London this weekend).

Back to the topic, I got my tickets through this morning!! yee-haa!

Best of luck with your showcase Debs, looking forward to it!

Debster
14th-February-2003, 02:46 PM
Wow, cool! Thanks Will. :)

Sorry I'll miss Mr Wong this weekend... too busy working on the showcase! Please worship at his feet on my behalf.

This showcase stuff is hard work but I'm really enjoying it.
:devil: Any cheering, applause, shouting, wolf-whistles or other positive noises would be gratefully received from any members of the chat forum (whether you like the performance or not!), the more noise the better!! Do you require bribes? :devil:

:cheers:

TheTramp
14th-February-2003, 03:05 PM
Do you require bribes? Yes please. What are you offering?? :devil:

Steve

Dancing Veela
14th-February-2003, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Debster
Any cheering, applause, shouting, wolf-whistles or other positive noises would be gratefully received from any members of the chat forum (whether you like the performance or not!), the more noise the better!! Do you require bribes? :devil:

:cheers:

Not bribes Debster just reciprocal cheering , applause, shouting, wolf-whistles and other positive noises for the team event!!!!

For those of us who don't actually know you - how do we know which showcase to cheer for??????

TheTramp
14th-February-2003, 05:14 PM
Ask me :D

I'm still bribeable though.... :na:

Steve

Will
15th-February-2003, 03:07 AM
Attn Debs,

Stevie is staying over at my place tonight and tomorrow. He is standing next to me and has asked me to pass on his best wishes to you regarding your showcase. Furthermore, Mr Wong says he is itching to grab you for a few dances after the showcase.

From your 2 greatest fans,

Will & Stevie

Will
15th-February-2003, 03:11 AM
Attn: The Tramp,

Steve, I was wondering if you know of any decent dance events in London tomorrow (Saturday night)? Ceroc hasn't got anything going on that I know of, and you seem to have a handle on most of the other dance companies in London.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Will

TheTramp
15th-February-2003, 09:24 AM
Hiya Will

Can't help you out with dances in London tonight, but come down to Brighton for what should be a great dance. 3 rooms each playing different music, and already getting close to being sold out, so lots of people to dance with....

www.eventsforcharity.co.uk

Come say hello if you make it down there.

Steve

Jayne
16th-February-2003, 12:30 PM
[start rant]

Bloody Hell!!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

I've just spent the last 30 minutes trying to buy my tickets for the champs! Talk about traumatic!!! :reallymad I was even swearing at the damn computer - which just isn't me!!! :innocent:

OK so it's Sunday morning but I'm not that stupid! Two tips:

1. Make sure you drink before you go anywhere near PayPal
2. Get halfway through your registration and then check your e-mail. There'll be an important mail for you - but paypal doesn't tell you. :reallymad :reallymad

Grrrr :reallymad

[end rant]

I'm bathing in a pool of tranquil water.
There are birds gently singing in the background.
I can feel the sun's warmth on my skin...

Actually I'm really looking forward to London now - Blackpool first though - how does a girl cope with all this excitement??

J :innocent:

Graham
16th-February-2003, 01:05 PM
Hey, girl, chill! :wink:

Maybe it's withdrawal symptoms. :wink:

Will
17th-February-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Jayne
[start rant]
I've just spent the last 30 minutes trying to buy my tickets for the champs! Talk about traumatic!!! :reallymad I was even swearing at the damn computer - which just isn't me!!! :innocent:

OK so it's Sunday morning but I'm not that stupid! Two tips:

1. Make sure you drink before you go anywhere near PayPal
2. Get halfway through your registration and then check your e-mail. There'll be an important mail for you - but paypal doesn't tell you. :reallymad :reallymad

Grrrr :reallymad

[end rant] Jayne,

I too bought my tickets through paypal via the cerocchamps website, and I too had no idea that when I registered with paypal that I'd have to wait days before getting the code to activate my account. Well annoying as I'd filled everything out at the time only to have to repeat the process days later.

Anyway, if it is any consolation, once I'd got my code and gone through the website again, my tickets came through almost straight away.

I now have all my tickets for both the major dance competitions all ready to roll. AHHHHHH!!!!! :nice:

Will

Jayne
17th-February-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Will
I too had no idea that when I registered with paypal that I'd have to wait days before getting the code to activate my account. Well annoying as I'd filled everything out at the time only to have to repeat the process days later.


Hi Will,

Errrmm, I didn't do that bit... I take it this is the four digit thing that's supposed to appear on your credit card statement? I didn't do that but I followed the link from the e-mail to activate my account and I got an invoice number back so I assumed it had taken some money (although it's not appeared on the bank statement yet...)

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if some tickets arrive! If they do, can you pencil me in for a dance at the comp please?? :puppy dog eyes:

J :nice:

Will
17th-February-2003, 02:03 PM
Jayne

I could be wrong (and I hope I am), but I think you'll find that it has taken $1.95 off your credit card - a fee that gets reimbursed when you make your first purchase.

For me it said that I had to wait until I had my 4 digit activation code on my next statement.

The best way to check is to access you credit card on-line if you have that option. This will tell you what you've been charged, and it will also tell you what your 4 digit activation code is. Be aware though that it won't even appear on an online credit card statement for 3-4 days.

Will

Jayne
17th-February-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Will
Jayne

I could be wrong (and I hope I am), but I think you'll find that it has taken $1.95 off your credit card - a fee that gets reimbursed when you make your first purchase.

For me it said that I had to wait until I had my 4 digit activation code on my next statement.

The best way to check is to access you credit card on-line if you have that option. This will tell you what you've been charged, and it will also tell you what your 4 digit activation code is. Be aware though that it won't even appear on an online credit card statement for 3-4 days.

Will

I think you're right about the fee. I checked my statements on line this morning and there was no sigh of anything - I was mainly wondering if the money had gone for my tickets, at least then I'd know if it had worked... I guess time will tell...

Cheers Will!

J :nice:

Will
17th-February-2003, 02:59 PM
Guys,

Good News....

I've just been onto the Ceroc UK Champs website, and it looks as if they've decided to add another heat to the Open Catagory as the availability has suddenly gone upto 5 from being a sell out last week.

Also note that the Caberet competition only has one more place left. I hope all the Scottish entries are already logged now I'm going head to head with you :wink:

Will

P.S. I'd like to point out that after last years caberet was won by the only team to turn up armed, that this year the team I'm in are going to be fully kitted out with all the latest millitary hardware!!! :grin:

Jayne
17th-February-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Will
P.S. I'd like to point out that after last years caberet was won by the only team to turn up armed, that this year the team I'm in are going to be fully kitted out with all the latest millitary hardware!!! :grin: [Homer Simpson voice]
mmmm... men in uniform... :drool:

[/Homer Simpson voice]

We've included a tank in our routine.

We just need to find one that won't be in use....

J :wink:

Bill
17th-February-2003, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Will
Guys,

P.S. I'd like to point out that after last years caberet was won by the only team to turn up armed, that this year the team I'm in are going to be fully kitted out with all the latest millitary hardware!!! :grin: and if the gun had been real I'd have shot myself at the end :sorry .............mind you given how many mistakes I made on the day I'd have missed ! :eek: :rolleyes:

Hope you make a better job of it than I did. Thankfully the rest of the men got it right and the judges didn't seem to notice too much :na: :wink:

Good luck to you and all our 'foreign' contributors at London.

Debster
18th-February-2003, 08:38 PM
Sorry about the slow reply...


Originally posted by Dancing Veela
Not bribes Debster just reciprocal cheering , applause, shouting, wolf-whistles and other positive noises for the team event!!!!

For those of us who don't actually know you - how do we know which showcase to cheer for??????

It's a deal! I love a good reason to cheer. :D

Yeah, the Steve-tramp can point me out, but in case he's off being arrested for wearing a pink tutu, I'll give you a hint... I'm dancing with a guy called Hillel, and I have long red hair which will probably be in a pony-tail kind of do. Maybe I'll even have time to pop over to whatever spot seems to be teaming with forum people to say hello ;)

And pardon my ignorance but how do I know which team to be cheering really loud for?

Heather
18th-February-2003, 10:46 PM
:D Are we talking Blacpool or Londonhere, Debster?? (This being the Ceroc Champs thread!!!)
There are two Scottish teams in the Blackpool Champs and only one (as far as I am aware), in the Ceroc Champs. If you are referring to Blackpool, then I can tell you that one team(Sheena's )is very obviously Scottish!!!!!! I think you will know that as soon as you see them!!!!! (And I guarantee you will not be able to stop yourself cheering loudly when you see our men!!!):wink:
If you are referring to London, then there is only one Scottish team , among whose number are various contributers to the Forum and who I'd hope you will be cheering loudly for also!!
:cheers:
Heather,

John S
18th-February-2003, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Heather
Blacpool

Heather - how could you????????


Originally posted by Heather

(And I guarantee you will not be able to stop yourself cheering loudly when you see our men!!!):wink:

Or possibly jeering(just depends how cold it is in the venue):wink:

Heather
19th-February-2003, 12:45 AM
:D Not even me, John!!!!:wink: (99% perfect!!!!)
:cheers:
Heather,
:kiss:

How do you know it wasn't a deliberate spelling mistake to check that you were paying attention!!!!

Debster
19th-February-2003, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Heather
:D Are we talking Blackpool [;)] or London here, Debster?? (This being the Ceroc Champs thread!!!)
My apologies, getting threads tangled... :sorry
Well, both really anyway. I'll be at both.
I just didn't know if there was more than one Scottish team doing the comps, so thanks for your reply:D

I'll start warming up my lungs ... :yum:

Will
19th-February-2003, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Still got my reservations about the Intermediate result, and cannot belive that Clayton and Janine weren't placed, .:sick:
I don't often find myself agreeing with Gus, but on this occasion I have to agree entirely - especially about Clayton and Janine. I was watching last years champs video earlier today and came to exactly the same opinion.

Gus
19th-February-2003, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Will
I don't often find myself agreeing with Gus, but on this occasion I have to agree entirely - especially about Clayton and Janine. I was watching last years champs video earlier today and came to exactly the same opinion.

Comes back to the age old question ..."what are the judges looking for?" There is no doubt that the Aussie/NZ style is more drops/big move/choroegraphed based ... but in competitions I think that looks really good. With the rule change at Blackpool this would favour their style even more so. For the Ceroc Champs, there is no clear guideline for what they are after .... so, especialy for advanced dancers, no indication for how they should perform.

I would hate to be a competitor in the 'Open' section ... do you aim for BIG moves, lots of 'technuical' stuff, demonstrate accuracy of CEROC moves, flashy drops ????? The sad truth is that 'just' dancing your best is NOT going to win you competitions at the top level (IMHO).

TheTramp
19th-February-2003, 10:48 AM
The sad truth is that 'just' dancing your best is NOT going to win you competitions at the top level (IMHO).I quite agree. Bit of a shame really.... But that's life....

Steve

Bill
19th-February-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Will
I don't often find myself agreeing with Gus, but on this occasion I have to agree entirely - especially about Clayton and Janine. I was watching last years champs video earlier today and came to exactly the same opinion.


As an admirer of C&J I'd agree. I felt and feel they are amongst the best and was quite amazed when they weren't placed and thought that several couples in the final didn't really dance that well or that smoothly. Same was true in Blackpool (but i've already expressed my views on that :rolleyes: ).

Playing devil's advocate................... C&J do rely very heavily on her spinning and often do only a handful of moves, repeating some of the 'bigger' moves several times. I noticed that in the last two comps other dancers have often travelled more than they have and even though the dancing has been far less 'sophisticated' others have shown more moves and sometimes have a more 'ceroc' style.

Perhaps C&J are too smooth for Ceroc UK !:confused: :sick: Is it a coincidence that some of the males dancers who have done well ( apart from Clayton) often have a more crouched body position - almost a lindy style ?

Just over a week to go so can't wait to see everyone and clap and cheer like a mad thing...................:cheers: :na:

DavidB
19th-February-2003, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Bill
several couples in the final didn't really dance that well or that smoothly.But is dancing smoothly a typical characteristic of Ceroc?

The way that most moves are taught is with a pause between each movement, eg
- Step back on 1
- {pause}
- step in on 2
- {pause}
- twist the lady out
- {pause}
etc, etc

This style of movement carries over from the class into the way that the vast majority of people freestyle. The movements are done 'quicker' than the music, with a slight hesitation in between to highlight the beats in the music. A lot of teachers dance this way - it makes everything more obvious to the majority of their students.

I personally think the smoother style looks a lot better, particularly to 'smoother' music. It gives more of an idea of dancing together, rather than mechanically leading and following moves. But someone could easily argue that it doesn't look like 'Ceroc' without this hesitation. And it can be harder to see if someone is dancing in time to the music.

David

Gus
19th-February-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
But is dancing smoothly a typical characteristic of Ceroc?

The way that most moves are taught is with a pause between each movement

David I think there is a large gap between how Ceroc is taught and what Modern Jive can look like at the higher levels. The clearest contrast is watching Viktor demonstrate a 1st move then watch him dance it in 'his' style. 'His' style breaks loads of 'Ceroc' rules but no-one would deny which looks better.

This discussion could easily come back to the 'define Ceroc' debate. A number of competition rules explicitly ban the use of Lindy. WCS, Tango dancing .... but many Modern Jive m,oves are exact copies of Lindy. WCS, Tango dancing ...so where does that leave you:confused:

Franck
19th-February-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
But is dancing smoothly a typical characteristic of Ceroc?

The way that most moves are taught is with a pause between each movement, eg
- Step back on 1
- {pause} etc... Now David, you are being slightly disingenuous here... Is it your turn at being ODA? :nice:

We do not teach a pause as part of any of the moves. What we do is make sure people take account of the beat, and emphasize where they should be on each beat.
This might translate into a slight pause (for beginners) when the music is very slow, and you are probably right, a lot of dancers will keep dancing like that, but all it shows is that they have not tried to improve. Most workshops, mostly above Beginners level, but not exclusively, would teach them to smooth the transition between beats / positions.

The main problem with most dancers is not that they pause too much, but that they rush through the moves. This typically improves with confidence.
This is probably why Beginner / new Intermediate dancers prefer a faster tempo combined with a regular beat!

As for smoother dancers not making it to the final, that is not the case. I have not seen the video you refer to, so can't comment on that specific heat, but some of the finalists / winners over the last couple years have been very smooth dancers.

It is always possible that a very good couple will go through the net, and be missed out though. Conversely, that might have boosted the confidence and chances of another couple winning more competition...

Franck.

Dance Demon
19th-February-2003, 01:12 PM
Spot on Gus!
I think that if everyone danced exactly the way they were taught, then you would have a whole dance floor full of dancing clones.
Once the basic mechanics have been learned, it is up to the individual to develop a style to add to the moves.
e.g. Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly probably used all the same basic tap steps, but introduced their own style and flair to make them appear different. Re your point about lindy, salsa WCS etc, I have found that most partner dances in this genre use much about the same moves, bur have different footwork to distinguish from other styles
:cheers:
DD:devil:

Franck
19th-February-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Gus
The clearest contrast is watching Viktor demonstrate a 1st move then watch him dance it in 'his' style. 'His' style breaks loads of 'Ceroc' rules but no-one would deny which looks better. Well, I would hope so!

Teaching a move on stage implies making every (important) part of the move obvious to the class. They must see clearly how and where to move. You have to simplify it (especially for Beginners) to make it accessible.

On the other hand, Freestyle dancing is involves a certain degree of concealment of the structure / rules etc...

It is a very important part of teacher training to realise that simply wowing you class with Style will not teach them anything (except that they'll probably never be able to do that), you have to be able to break down your style to its most barebone essentials.
There is obviously a balance to be struck, as you still have to look good and encourage people to emulate some style, but more teaching is required and less 'Showing off' to bring another thread into it! :nice:

Franck.

Gus
19th-February-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Franck
There is obviously a balance to be struck, as you still have to look good and encourage people to emulate some style, but more teaching is required and less 'Showing off' to bring another thread into it! :nice:

Franck. I think the point I was trying to make is that 'what is Ceroc style'? As the only formal teaching is mainly at Intermediate level ... there is no 'official' style when it comes to competition.

In the UK, Ceroc has only three years presence in competition (unlike our Ceroc Aussie/NZ cousins or US Swing dancers) and so there is no clear definition of what is or isn't good. I remember seeing the first Ceroc final (1999?) and seeing Marco (now a teacher at Leicester) absolutely decimate the rest of the field in the Advanced section. The rest of the finalists 'just' did Ceroc ... Marco DANCED. That was the turning point for me, when I thought I'd like to be able to make Ceroc look something like his style.

So ... anyone want to venture what you need to do to win?:wink:

Franck
19th-February-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Gus
there is no 'official' style when it comes to competition. Aaaah, I understand what you meant now :D

My answer would be that there should not be an 'official' style. Ceroc has successfully encouraged thousands of people to get into dancing because you did not have 'fit' a particular definition of Style etc...
The moment we start saying this is Ceroc and this is not (in terms of Style rather than moves / technique), then we lose out big time... :sad:

This is where competitions are a huge problem, as they automatically 'imply' a better style. The only way I can reconcile it personally is to believe that competitions can be a showcase for different styles, and while there will be an overall winner, people will be able to spot a style that suits them amongst the competitors.
This will allow Ceroc to develop and grow as more styles are added year after year, with trends appearing and disappearing again.
Unfortunately, the moment we announce in advance: "This is what Ceroc Style should be!" then we lose all inspiration as everyone tries to copy the one style (as Dancing Demon says), we all become clones...

Franck.

Will
19th-February-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I think the point I was trying to make is that 'what is Ceroc style'? :

I don't think you can define the Ceroc 'Style'. Ceroc is a dance, not a style. Style is individual to the dancer. If you look at the finals of last years advanced championships there were various different styles that had won through to the final. Compare Su-Fi with Ray and with James. Very different, but all very succcessful. The Freedom that Ceroc gives you is one of the biggest plus points of the dance for me.

After all, you don't see such variety of styles in Morris dancing do you!

Franck
19th-February-2003, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Gus
So ... anyone want to venture what you need to do to win?:wink: Apart from a big fat brown envelope stuffed with high denomination used notes addressed to me? :wink:

I can't say, as obviously I am not in charge of either events, but my hope is that to win, you would have to dance your best and be as original and creative as possible.
Over and above that, you will need luck on your side, not just that the judges will notice and like your style, but that your style of dancing exceeds the current mood / expectations!

You did ask :D

Franck.

Gadget
19th-February-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I personally think the smoother style looks a lot better, particularly to 'smoother' music. It gives more of an idea of dancing together, rather than mechanically leading and following moves. But someone could easily argue that it doesn't look like 'Ceroc' without this hesitation. And it can be harder to see if someone is dancing in time to the music.
IMHO, at that level, it should be obvious if the dancers are dancing to the music: isn't that an integral part of 'dancing' anyway?
{Note - dancing to the music rather than dancing to the beat}

As to what 'Style' Ceroc should define it's self as, I'm with Franck and Will: it isn't the style that is important, but the dance.
Gus mentioned that one person wiped the floor at a competition because everyone else was doing the moves and one couple were using the moves to dance. I think that this is what should be judged - not just showing you know the moves, but showing that you can use them.

Gus
19th-February-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
As to what 'Style' Ceroc should define it's self as, I'm with Franck and Will: it isn't the style that is important, but the dance.

I'm sorry but recent results dont agree with this sentiment. There have been clear cases where a reliance on choreographed sections and emphasis on flash moves over musical interpretation have carried the day. The problem is that, until this years C2D comp, the judges criteria have remained a mystery. Whether people like the C2D criteria is another matter ... but at least they are now out in the open ..... and it appears that musical interpretation can now be outweighed by using the floor and big moves.... (see below)



SECTION DESCRIPTION MARKS
COSTUME / PRESENTATION- Dress, co-ordination with partner 1 - 3
and overall presentation.

MUSICALITY / INTERPRETATION- Showmanship, personality, poise, 1 - 5
The ability to dance to the rhythm, and character of the music.

TECHNIQUE - Floor craft, good pattern and direction, 1 - 5
Good use of the floor, consideration to fellow competitors, Style.

VARIETY COMPLEXITY – Variation, difficulty and execution of moves. 1 - 5

As Tramp peviously concurred, to do well in these competitions you have to know to what extent the judges are looking for compexity of moves versus musical inetrpretation. The more you go for complex moves the more you tend towards choreographed 'mini-routines' and rely less on 'lead and follow' .... does this make the dance better or is it better to watch. ... who knows?

DavidB
19th-February-2003, 02:59 PM
I wouldn't attempt to displace the official ODA... he does too good a job at it.

I spent a lot of time over the weekend watching West Coast Swing videos. And on Saturday night I went to Stompin' in Brighton, where there were a lot of very good jive dancers. It struck me that jive had a very 'staccatto' look compared to WCS, even amongst the advanced dancers. Some of this is the nature of the dance - WCS encourages a smoother style as most of the moves try to keep the lady moving, rather than constantly stopping and starting her.

But I also thought that there was a definite hesitation after virtually every movement, that didn't need to be there. It is not a complete freeze, but it is definitely an interruption to a smooth movement. (It is more like lifting off the accelerator than pressing the brake pedal.) It is probably the most noticable difference between Modern Jive and other forms of swing.

I'm not saying this is wrong. It can help define the beat, and is especially useful when dancing with beginners. (Dancing 'smooth' with beginners can make it harder for them.) I also think that a teacher needs to do this when teaching, as it really helps everyone in the class know when they should be doing things.


The point I was trying to make is that you could either consider this a styling point, or as an intrinsic part of the dance.

If it is a styling point, then you can do it, exaggerate it, or cut it out completely. But you also have to consider the music as well. There isn't a blanket style that suits every type of music, particularly at the advanced level. What suits one song may not suit another. In particular a smooth style might be ideal for slower, bluesier tracks (eg Wade In The Water), but not for more contemporary dance tracks with frequent rhythm changes (eg 25 Miles).

But if a judge thinks it is an intrinsic part of the dance, he could quite reasonably mark someone down for not doing it. And if you consider that it is something most people do, and gives Ceroc a particular look, then you could argue it is not just a style, but a fundamental part of the dance.

David

DavidB
19th-February-2003, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Dance Demon
Once the basic mechanics have been learned, it is up to the individual to develop a style to add to the moves.
Originally posted by Gus
... Marco DANCED. That was the turning point for me, when I thought I'd like to be able to make Ceroc look something like his style.
Originally posted by Franck
people will be able to spot a style that suits them amongst the competitors.
Originally posted by Will
Style is individual to the dancer. One reason why I believe there are no truly advanced jive dancers yet is that all the best couples seem to have just one style. They dance their style no matter what song is being played. No-one yet seems to have a range of styles that suits the different types of music that gets played.

If you were given the list of songs that would get played in the heats and the finals, you could probably work out the results. Different music would give a different results. So does that mean the best couple win?

David

Gus
19th-February-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
If you were given the list of songs that would get played in the heats and the finals, you could probably work out the results. Different music would give a different results. So does that mean the best couple win?

David Ahhh .. but at C2D, finalists for the Advanced section get two tracks, of different tempo .....

Will
19th-February-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Ahhh .. but at C2D, finalists for the Advanced section get two tracks, of different tempo ..... ....as they did at last years UK Ceroc Championships in BOTH the Advanced and Intermediate Finals.

Okay, I've ignored his previous 99 references to it but this time I'm gonna bite....

Take nothing away from C2D, I can't wait to be a part of what is surely going to be a fabulous event, but I'm just beginning to wonder if Gus is either on the Payroll or trying to butter up their judges in advance of his entry with all this thinly veiled "C2D is better than Ceroc in every way - shape - form - blah - blah - blah"

Come on man, can't we just celebrate both these events without trying to play one off against the other?

Gus
19th-February-2003, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Will
Okay, I've ignored his previous 99 references to it but this time I'm gonna bite....

Take nothing away from C2D, I can't wait to be a part of what is surely going to be a fabulous event, but I'm just beginning to wonder if Gus is either on the Payroll or trying to butter up their judges in advance of his entry with all this thinly veiled "C2D is better than Ceroc in every way - shape - form - blah - blah - blah" Urrrrr .... sorry but thought I'd stopped my "Ceroc good, C2D better" chant some time back.:sorry To be honest, I'm surprised that my comments were read that way. Recent comments made were focused on C2D as I've more experience of C2D and I wasn't at Ceroc champs last year ... so no sleight intended. Both sets of Champs should be supported and enjoyed.

Having said that ....:devil: my personal preference is for C2D mainly because of the Advanced category. They have a top line up of judges, a wide range of teachers and profesionals competing and a dancefloor there is actualy room to dance on (IMHO). Don't get me wrong, the Ceroc champs are a great event and if you are not a dance profesional they have a lot to offer ... but for those of us who live in North, a trip to Blackpool appeals more than a trek down to London .....

Dreadful Scathe
19th-February-2003, 05:16 PM
There is a pretty good case for C2D being a far better jive competition:

the judges are not part of the organisation itself

the venue is good for the competitors AND the spectators (which hammersmith certainly isnt)

its mid-UK and better located for a UK champs

see...3 good reasons :) Feel free to add more ;)

Lindsay
19th-February-2003, 05:36 PM
Hey Smurf - are you and your gorgeous lady competing??

Dreadful Scathe
19th-February-2003, 05:42 PM
indeed we are :- DWAS, Intermediate and Cabaret

I might get you in DWAS...poor you :)

Gus
19th-February-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
There is a pretty good case for C2D being a far better jive competition:

the judges are not part of the organisation itself

the venue is good for the competitors AND the spectators (which hammersmith certainly isnt)

its mid-UK and better located for a UK champs Well said ... though as ODA I feel honour bound to put forward the reasons why Ceroc holds a better competition......

urrr, hmmmm, wellllll ..........

OK .... give me a while and I'm sure I'll think of something:wink:

Will
20th-February-2003, 03:08 AM
Well like I said apart from the fact I don't want to play down the Blackpool event in anyway because I'm sure it's going to be fantastic, I haven't even been to it yet so I can't really comment on how it compares to Ceroc. I still can't help feeling your slightly biased against Ceroc however Gus.

But to defuse this little debate, I think we should all come together and celebrate the fact that Ceroc dancing has its 2 biggest annual competitions in the same 2 cities (London & Blackpool) that Darts does. Indeed, the darts Grand Prix is actually in the same hall as the C2D event.

I think that both the Ceroc and C2D organisers should get the likes of Phil 'The Power' Taylor, Eric Bristow, or Jocky Wilson to present the awards.

Dreadful Scathe
20th-February-2003, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Will

the fact that Ceroc dancing has its 2 biggest annual competitions in the same 2 cities..

'Ceroc dancing'..lol the Blitz, Le Jive, Le Roc etc.. crowd are now wondering what you are on about! :) C2D has nothing to do with Ceroc , its 'Open' and non-specific.

Gus
20th-February-2003, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Will
.......celebrate the fact that Ceroc dancing has its 2 biggest annual competitions in the same 2 cities (London & Blackpool) .....

What is this 'Ceroc' dancing you refer to? Up North we do Modern Jive..:devil: :devil: :devil: :wink:

TheTramp
20th-February-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Gus:

Ahhh .. but at C2D, finalists for the Advanced section get two tracks, of different tempo .....Hmmm. As I recall, last year, the tracks were very similar in style/tempo (I may be wrong about this, but that was my recollection). Are they going to be different this year?

Steve

Gus
20th-February-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Hmmm. As I recall, last year, the tracks were very similar in style/tempo (I may be wrong about this, but that was my recollection). Are they going to be different this year?

Steve

Fair comment ... both were Chart traxs, though first was about 120bpm, second was about 150 bpm. Think the intention is to make them more different (lousy grammar but you know what I mean).

Will
20th-February-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
'Ceroc dancing'..lol the Blitz, Le Jive, Le Roc etc.. crowd are now wondering what you are on about! :) C2D has nothing to do with Ceroc , its 'Open' and non-specific.

Didn't we have this debate already? Are you seriously telling me that people who attend Blitz etc... events haven't heard of Ceroc???

If I'd been talking about dance companies you'd be right, but I specifically used the term 'Ceroc dance' so as to differentiate the dance type from the Trademarked Company. I have no problem with you calling the dance style Modern Jive if you want, but to me it's as weird as calling Salsa "Hispanic Jive". I hadn't even heard of the term 'Modern Jive' until a couple of years ago.

TheTramp
20th-February-2003, 02:17 PM
We did have this debate already. Please don't start it again. I'm not sure I'd retain the will to live by the end of it!! :D

Steve

Dancing Veela
20th-February-2003, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Debster
Sorry about the slow reply...
Ditto


Originally posted by Debster

It's a deal! I love a good reason to cheer. :D

Yeah, the Steve-tramp can point me out, but in case he's off being arrested for wearing a pink tutu, I'll give you a hint... I'm dancing with a guy called Hillel, and I have long red hair which will probably be in a pony-tail kind of do. Maybe I'll even have time to pop over to whatever spot seems to be teaming with forum people to say hello ;)


OK I guess you'll be easy to spot then!


Originally posted by Debster
And pardon my ignorance but how do I know which team to be cheering really loud for?
Well you'll know which Scottish routine Heather is in easily from her description - and we are the other one - I assume when they announce it they say where you are from???? We are 'Fatal Attraction' :devil:

DV x

Gadget
20th-February-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I'm not sure I'd retain the will to live by the end of it!! :D
Was this pun intended? I found it amusing :D

TheTramp
20th-February-2003, 02:52 PM
It was intended :)

Maybe I should have capatalised the 'W'....

Steve

Dreadful Scathe
20th-February-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Will
Didn't we have this debate already? Are you seriously telling me that people who attend Blitz etc... events haven't heard of Ceroc???

eh? whats that got to do with it.



If I'd been talking about dance companies you'd be right, but I specifically used the term 'Ceroc dance' so as to differentiate the dance type from the Trademarked Company.

er.. you specifically used the term 'Ceroc Dancing' to describe a Jive competiion where some of the competitors may never have been to Ceroc to learn their form of dance, wether they've heard of it or not is hardly relevant.

My point was le roc dancers and others are unlikely to call the dance they do after the name of a trademark company. The only valid general term is Modern Jive wether you've heard of it or not.
Check your context for what you said, as you banded 2 competitions together as Ceroc competitions when there is clearly only one of them is. If Ceroc was a dance then other companies could quote it on their literature, but they cant as its a trademark.

This isnt an argument its a series of statements to establish a definite proposition, like thats gonna happen ;)

Gus
20th-February-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
This isnt an argument its a series of statements to establish a definite proposition, like thats gonna happen ;)


Ahhh, the injection of Pythonesque humour by chance?

Dreadful Scathe
20th-February-2003, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Ahhh, the injection of Pythonesque humour by chance?

of course, gotta lighten the end of that, it was getting serious. If this continues I can expect the Spanish Inquisitiion.....

Bill
20th-February-2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
One reason why I believe there are no truly advanced jive dancers yet is that all the best couples seem to have just one style. Interesting point David......... and I think this was raised ages ago on another thread.

I was thinking about this in Brighton watching some great dancers and heard someone say that Viktor has one style...........but what style :yum: :D and it was no coincidence that despite some really good teachers on the floor for their cabaret the two couples who stood out were N&N and V&L - especailly when they messed about and had Simon involved as well.

We all have our own style and I don't think it makes you less advanced to have one great style. Obviously doing WCS or Tango or whatever can develop and enhance a dancer's style but I consider a good dancer to be someone who dances to and plays with the music and I know a lot of dancers do that but I can't think of many dancers I've seen who have a range of styles to fit different songs.

Our style changes over time but I've always considered a 'Ceroc' style to be more lindy rather thananything else and for me Janine and Clayton have stood out in London because they were much smoother and certainly more elegant than most other couples.

But it is nice to see and appreciate different styles.

Gus
20th-February-2003, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
of course, gotta lighten the end of that, it was getting serious. If this continues I can expect the Spanish Inquisitiion.....

All together now . ."but nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...etc etc"

Will
21st-February-2003, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
The only valid general term is Modern Jive wether you've heard of it or not.
........
If Ceroc was a dance then other companies could quote it on their literature, but they cant as its a trademark We definately have had this debate before and like most of the other people here, I don't really wanna go through it again. If you want a history lesson, you can read the old thread here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=560).

Gus
21st-February-2003, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Will
We definately have had this debate before and like most of the other people here, I don't really wanna go through it again. If you want a history lesson, you can read the old thread here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=560). Who cares ?:wink:

There are two major championships with different offerings. People should attend based on their own preferences (i.e. music, competition levels, venue, music, judges etc) not on 'political' grounds. Personal view entirely of course. :waycool:

Will
21st-February-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Who cares ?:wink:

There are two major championships with different offerings. People should attend based on their own preferences (i.e. music, competition levels, venue, music, judges etc) not on 'political' grounds. Personal view entirely of course. :waycool:
Quite agree with you Gus. Remember it was DS who asked the question, not I.

Dreadful Scathe
21st-February-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Will
Quite agree with you Gus. Remember it was DS who asked the question, not I. I only corrected you on the use of a word, dont labour the point :)

Will
21st-February-2003, 03:50 PM
To be fair to you DS, whilst I agree with what Gus said, it seemed to have little to do with the debate that we were in danger of having all over again. :nice:

Bill
23rd-February-2003, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Will
To be fair to you DS, whilst I agree with what Gus said, it seemed to have little to do with the debate that we were in danger of having all over again. :nice: erm........... actually forgotten what the debate was :sick: :rolleyes:

But can't help adding that having watched videos of both Blackpool and London (from last year) during the week how much both have to offer and how much fun they can both be.

There's no doubting that Blackpool is by far the better venue for participants and spectators but I would say that hsving looked at both Advanced finals again I still feel - even more than I did at the time - how Clayton and Janine IMHO - were clearly 'robbed' in London. There were some very good dancers on the floor but in terms of technique, style and interpretation they were well ahead of the others.

I still also think the judges made 'mistakes' in the final in Blackpool but I feel that was more to do with reputations but then it is all for fun......isn't it !!??:sick: :sorry :rolleyes:

Gus
25th-February-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Bill
I still also think the judges made 'mistakes' in the final in Blackpool but I feel that was more to do with reputations but then it is all for fun......isn't it !!??:sick: :sorry :rolleyes: OK ... run this past me again .... exactly who is it 'fun' for? I alwys remeber the Miss World competitions ... after they've announced 2nd and 3rd places ..... so there's three or so lasses there all waiting for the final name to be called .... each one who is either going to be crowned Miss World or labelled as a complete nobody or loooooser ...... yup ... its great fun to not be placed!!!:tears: :devil:

Only joking ... but you must admit it might be a trifling hurtful if you slog your guts out and then get robbed of a well earned place due to biased or poor judging.

Haveing said that, if you look at the calibre of judges that are now coming to the fore, I think the chance of that happening is diminishing. Still looking forward to the day that V&L are judges!

Bill
25th-February-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Gus

Only joking ... but you must admit it might be a trifling hurtful if you slog your guts out and then get robbed of a well earned place due to biased or poor judging.





Till recently I'd have agreed because I'd have spent a bit of time going throug hmoves and practicing but doing a quick count..........and this isn't an excuse for being crap on Saturday ( well maybe just a little bit :na: :rolleyes: ) ......... I've had approx 4 hrs practice with Fran and less than 2 with Fran and Denise for the Double Trouble ( ie two short sessions last Saturday !).


So I can hardly say I've slogged my guts out and for the first time in 3 years competing - though I'll be disappointed - I won't be surprised to go out in the first round. :tears: :sick:


But I do agree with the sentiment Gus and I actually feel quite aggrieved at some of the decisions from the last few years ( I've made these obvious elsewhere) and hope that all judges judge on what they actually see in front of them and not what they believe or know that a couple can do.

With you and the Tramp and a few folk I now know......I don't know who to shout for but I'll certainly be keeping my fingers crossed for you and Helen.


See you and everyone else there on Friday night or Saturday.

DavidB
25th-February-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Gus
... but you must admit it might be a trifling hurtful if you slog your guts out and then [don't get] a well earned place.Tough. You have entered a competition - it sort of goes with the territory. If you want to perform, but don't want to be so publicly compared to other dancers, then do cabarets instead.


get robbed ... due to biased or poor judging.Probably not a good idea to criticize the judging before a competition...

Although there are lots of times when I haven't agreed with the judges, I don't know if I've ever seen poor judging. I've never known what the judges were looking for, or what each of them thought. Thanks to the C2D organisers, we now the answer to the first question. We should hold off from the second question until after the weekend.

David

Gus
25th-February-2003, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Probably not a good idea to criticize the judging before a competition...

David

Ahh .. perhaps you misunderstood ... I'm not critisisng the judges at C2D ... quite the reverse .... but I've heard a number of examples from my more learned peers of results that were clearly distant from the performances on the day .... so we can either put that down to poor judging or bias judging ...

Again, as said previously ... I think this situation has changed... with the coming to fore of more experieneced and respected judges.

TheTramp
26th-February-2003, 01:11 AM
With you and the Tramp and a few folk I now know......I don't know who to shout for but I'll certainly be keeping my fingers crossed for you and Helen.Ah Bill....

The answer to this one is easy. You should be shouting for everyone you know, and all the ones you don't know too. Just maybe a bit less for the ones you don't know :D

Steve

Bill
26th-February-2003, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Ah Bill....

The answer to this one is easy. You should be shouting for everyone you know, and all the ones you don't know too. Just maybe a bit less for the ones you don't know :D Good answer......................:D :wink: ............... there'll be a bit of a cheer for you 'honourary' Scots when you walk on to the floor.

All the best for Saturday .......and of course to everyone who's competing. My feet are about complain already !!!!!!!!:sick:

Keith
27th-February-2003, 03:18 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Hmmm. As I recall, last year, the tracks were very similar in style/tempo (I may be wrong about this, but that was my recollection). Are they going to be different this year?

Steve

YEP
Keith:wink: