A new H******s?

[Paul F]

First and foremost I am not advertising a night as it doesnt exist yet so Im hoping this doesnt get deleted :grin:

Im wondering if it would be a good idea for someone (not me) to step up to the plate and organise a replacement for the now-changed hipsters.

As far as I can tell London , and quite frankly anywhere, does not have a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.


What I would love to see is:

* Decent venue - doesnt have to be a palace
* 1 or 2 advanced/speciality classes in one hall.
* West Coast Swing in the second hall - the potential is there for this to really grow and the 2 rooms really brings an added 'x-factor' (sorry)
* 2 hours of freestyle
* and any extra things like free parking etc.

I can only speak from a personal viewpoint but I would happily sit in , over an hour, of surrey traffic to get into London if such a night ran and i am definately not the only one.
Plus, with this forum, the organiser has an immediate mechanism to target the advanced dancers.

I really really want to see such a night created once again but is it viable?

I suppose the main question is who would teach these advanced lessons. Any ideas? There has to be well respected teachers in the area.

Ok, so if it is viable, is there anybody that wants to take up the challenge?
You would have 1 customer......me :flower:

[Feelingpink]

I'm all for more choice ... but my first thought on reading your post was to think that there is just what you want - it just happens to be on two separate nights. Jango on a Monday has fab lessons with Will & Kate (challenging and very friendly) and a nice bunch of people at Kent House, Hammersmith, then the same venue on a Wednesday for Cat & Lee teaching West Coast. You'd just have to deal with the traffic on two nights :flower: Oh, and there's free parking.

Jango does not have a beginner's lesson, although the WCS night does.

If anyone was to set up a single night (in London?) as you've suggested, they would be competing against these.

[MartinHarper]

... a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.

What benefits would you get from a night catering exclusively to experienced dancers, over one that caters to experienced dancers, but also provides beginner classes?

[Paul F]

Not sure how to do that multiple quote thing (or just too lazy :) ) so will just write here.

FP - To sit in traffic 2 nights a week. :what: :what: Nooooooooooo!
Jango was in my mind when i wrote this but the size of the venue would immediately restrict the numbers attending.
Also, after speaking to other dancers, simply calling it Jango would deter them. I disagree that this would be competition. Jango is unique.
The wednesday WCS swing night would benefit hugely by relocating to a second room in the new night. Cat was mentioning that kent house are becoming problematic with the pricing :mad:

MH - I would like to see the same benefit as the original Hipsters had. It sounds terrible and i hate myself for saying it but ...... no beginners class means no beginners?
< cue time for a change in thread theme :rolleyes: >
If for no other reason there are LOADS of beginners classes. Why have another one.

[Feelingpink]

... To sit in traffic 2 nights a week. :what: :what: Nooooooooooo!
Jango was in my mind when i wrote this but the size of the venue would immediately restrict the numbers attending.
Also, after speaking to other dancers, simply calling it Jango would deter them. I disagree that this would be competition.
The wednesday WCS swing night would benefit hugely by relocating to a second room in the new night. ...

Fair enough you don't want to sit in traffic for two nights (although I happily travel from east London to west for Kent House, a journey of more than an hour each way)!

Why does the name "Jango" deter dancers? And why woudn't it be competition? It's always a place to go for very good music and great dancers as well as the lessons.

How would the Wednesday WCS swing night benefit from being in a second room rather than on its own? Do you think some MJers might 'convert'?

Fair enough too about no MJ beginners class, but I think because of WCS being less well established, it needs one.

Reading this back, I'm aware that the post sounds quite negative, but it's not meant to be - I really would like to see other nights available, but also want them to succeed and perhaps they have to find/carve out their niche.

[Paul F]

Fair enough you don't want to sit in traffic for two nights (although I happily travel from east London to west for Kent House, a journey of more than an hour each way)!

Why does the name "Jango" deter dancers? And why woudn't it be competition? It's always a place to go for very good music and great dancers as well as the lessons.

How would the Wednesday WCS swing night benefit from being in a second room rather than on its own? Do you think some MJers might 'convert'?

Fair enough too about no MJ beginners class, but I think because of WCS being less well established, it needs one.

Reading this back, I'm aware that the post sounds quite negative, but it's not meant to be - I really would like to see other nights available, but also want them to succeed and perhaps they have to find/carve out their niche.

Ah! Apologies as I wasnt very clear.
Yes, the WCS night would definately need a beginners class. Yes also to the point about converting the MJ'er into a WCS'er (amazing what you can do with an 'er :D ). If WCS is to grow one of the best ways IMHO would be to attract the MJ dancers who may want that extra challenge. Plenty of organisers are doing this with workshops already.

As for Jango - it has its niche. From what I hear it is its own unique style. Im sure people will travel for both. At the end of the day Jango could never attract that many people due to the size of the venue. If it relocated then it may be able to run another class alongside and , hey presto, we have our new night.
In the mean time I think the potential is there to attract 100/150/200+ people to a different night.

As the saying goes - its all in a name. The name Jango will make a lot of people immediately think of Tango. MJ has a huge base on which to draw and has the associated 'comfort zone' that people are familier with.
When people have chatted to me about getting a bit bored with their regular nights I have suggested Jango. Immediately, upon mentioning the word Tango in my explanation, their reaction changes. I have explained to people its a fusion but the name is still there and that will frighten people.
However in another sense this is good as it maintains that uniqueness which will see both nights thrive together.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Cat was mentioning that kent house are becoming problematic with the pricing :mad: Cat's main problem with the pricing was that she needs more people to come along. There's still room for more people at Kent House, as you know - I don't think anywhere else is going to be cheaper, especially if it's a larger venue.

Much as we both enjoy WCS, I can't see any hard facts to support saying "the potential is there for this to really grow". Not until Cat's class fills Kent House on a regular basis.

[Paul F]

Cat's main problem with the pricing was that she needs more people to come along. There's still room for more people at Kent House, as you know - I don't think anywhere else is going to be cheaper, especially if it's a larger venue.

Much as we both enjoy WCS, I can't see any hard facts to support saying "the potential is there for this to really grow". Not until Cat's class fills Kent House on a regular basis.

Again , I have to disagree :blush: :blush: sorry :)

When it comes to cost of hiring rooms or halls I cant really comment as i dont know but the issue of exposure is a critical one IMO.

In its hayday Hipsters' Lindy classes attracted so many people from the MJ world including me for about 2 lessons :) ) purely because they went downstairs and saw what it was. Its this exposure that WCS simply doesnt have.
By combining it with an MJ night you have the exposure, the reduced risk of double booking (as you wouldnt have the stage and usage of a main hall) and the ?possibility? of a reduced rent but again i dont know things like cost. I can only guess that its going to cheper to hire a seconday room than it would be to hire a venue.
The main hall would, again like hipsters, be for the MJ.

To sell anything you have to get the word out. This would be a great way of doing it for WCS

The reason i throw the word potential in there is due to the fact that so many people seem to have an interest in finding out what it is. You only have to look at the weekend workshops and the posts from people wanting classes in other areas of the country. It again comes down to letting people see it or at least know where it is.

It has to be the better of the two options doesnt it?

[El Salsero Gringo]

The reason i throw the word potential in there is due to the fact that so many people seem to have an interest in finding out what it is. You only have to look at the weekend workshops and the posts from people wanting classes in other areas of the country.Remember that people who post on the forum, and people who go to weekenders are a tiny, tiny, ultra-committed subset of the dancing public. Beyond that, even from those people who want to know what it is, only a small minority are going to be motivated to put in the time and effort to take it up properly, especially when they can go to the 'other room' for a dance they feel they already know.

I agree that exposure and publicity are needed before WCS would take off in a big way, but I suggest that it needs exposure to the general public - not within the MJ/Ceroc community. And the most likely way for that to happen is for someone to see a business opportunity a-la Ceroc, brush up it's image, change the name to something less 'specialist' and start getting publicity in the Sunday papers for this "trendy new partner dance that's sweeping all before it." (!). Just throwing in another room of classes at a new MJ venue isn't going to do diddly.

[Jon Brett]

* Decent venue - doesnt have to be a palace
* 1 or 2 advanced/speciality classes in one hall.
* West Coast Swing in the second hall
* 2 hours of freestyle
* and any extra things like free parking etc.

What you are quoting is EXACTLY what Hipsters Tuesdays did. Unfortunately, we (Nigel & I) found that although it seems like a really good idea on paper, in practice it just didn't work.

Personally, and I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for saying this, I don't think that West Coast Swing and Modern Jive work very well together, if at all.

What we found is that most WCS dancers need to ditch MJ for a while to learn the dance without getting confused. This did make them seem cliquey to the MJ dancers, but until they get the hang of WCS, they can't simply switch back and forth between WCS & MJ at random.

When Hipsters mixed MJ with Lindy it worked much better because most of the slower swing/lindy tunes are good MJ tunes.

When more dancers get the hang of WCS, and can dance well to faster tunes, then it will mix better with MJ.

I think that WCS will be massive in the UK. Mainly because it can be danced to the modern R&B tunes that are not ideal for MJ. But at the moment WCS is still very much in its infancy. Until there's a bit more experience out there, pure WCS nights are the way to go.

In two or three years, when there are enough experienced WCS-ers I reckon you're "ideal night" will work.

Jon

[Paul F]

Remember that people who post on the forum, and people who go to weekenders are a tiny, tiny, ultra-committed subset of the dancing public. Beyond that, even from those people who want to know what it is, only a small minority are going to be motivated to put in the time and effort to take it up properly, especially when they can go to the 'other room' for a dance they feel they already know.

I agree that exposure and publicity are needed before WCS would take off in a big way, but I suggest that it needs exposure to the general public - not within the MJ/Ceroc community. And the most likely way for that to happen is for someone to see a business opportunity a-la Ceroc, brush up it's image, change the name to something less 'specialist' and start getting publicity in the Sunday papers for this "trendy new partner dance that's sweeping all before it." (!). Just throwing in another room of classes at a new MJ venue isn't going to do diddly.

I would never expect it to attract classes of 100+ like MJ does. I doubt the main protagonists have the time to put in to do that.
I still think the most productive way would be to leech onto the advanced MJ night while advertising through the current means.

After seeing the lindy at hipsters I get the feeling that the flow of traffic , albeit small, will be going from the MJ into the WCS class.

[Paul F]

What you are quoting is EXACTLY what Hipsters Tuesdays did. Unfortunately, we (Nigel & I) found that although it seems like a really good idea on paper, in practice it just didn't work.

Personally, and I'm sure I'll be shot down in flames for saying this, I don't think that West Coast Swing and Modern Jive work very well together, if at all.

What we found is that most WCS dancers need to ditch MJ for a while to learn the dance without getting confused. This did make them seem cliquey to the MJ dancers, but until they get the hang of WCS, they can't simply switch back and forth between WCS & MJ at random.

When Hipsters mixed MJ with Lindy it worked much better because most of the slower swing/lindy tunes are good MJ tunes.

When more dancers get the hang of WCS, and can dance well to faster tunes, then it will mix better with MJ.

I think that WCS will be massive in the UK. Mainly because it can be danced to the modern R&B tunes that are not ideal for MJ. But at the moment WCS is still very much in its infancy. Until there's a bit more experience out there, pure WCS nights are the way to go.

In two or three years, when there are enough experienced WCS-ers I reckon you're "ideal night" will work.

Jon

If I could give rep i would. :cheers:

I was thinking about the music and transitions on the way to fleet last night and this is the only way i could think of that would mean it wouldnt work.
There are quite a lot of tunes that do cross over well though eg. mustang sally but again they are maybe too slow for jive.

Cant tell you how gutted i was to move down here and dind hipsters had closed. After the statements released I had assumed it was due to the fact that you guys couldnt make the journey any more.

Maybe the switching of styles IS too much a barrier. I just really want to see an advanced night return :tears:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I would never expect it to attract classes of 100+ like MJ does. I doubt the main protagonists have the time to put in to do that.
I still think the most productive way would be to leech onto the advanced MJ night while advertising through the current means.As little as I know about business, I do believe that the most important thing is to be able to communicate to your potential customers, what the benefit *for them* is to buying your product. So just putting on a WCS class and hoping to osmose people away from MJ is unlikely to work. You'd have to really demonstrate *why* they should be learning a new style of dance, what it will do for them, and why it's worth the steep learning curve. Then it's a real business, and not just another dance class.

The same thing applies to your proposed new Hopsters evening. If the selling point is that it's for advanced dancers only you'd need to put a lot of effort into selling it as that - persuading people that they'll have more fun, get bashed less, have better music to dance to and so on. (Then of course you have to live up to it.) I can't see that just opening a new evening, billing it as 'advanced' and hoping everyone "advanced" will come along will do the trick.

There was a shop on Fulham Road which marketed itself primarily as "exclusive". They got a lot of publicity at the time they opened because you had to ring a doorbell before you were allowed in (even famous supermodels.) A shop assistant would look you up and down through the window and assess if you were their kind of customer before you could browse the exclusive, and presumably expensive, clothes. It went out of business in about six months. As far as I could see they failed to explain to anyone why they should want to subject themselves to this procedure - in other words they didn't sell the clothes as being worthy of that kind of exclusivity, they focused on the easy bit, and assumed that people would make the connection.

So if you are going to have a dance night that caters exclusively for advanced dancers - noting your own use of bold type - on what basis are you going to sell it to your potential customer base of advanced dancers?

[Lee]

As far as I can tell London , and quite frankly anywhere, does not have a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.


What I would love to see is:

* Decent venue - doesnt have to be a palace
* 1 or 2 advanced/speciality classes in one hall.
* West Coast Swing in the second hall - the potential is there for this to really grow and the 2 rooms really brings an added 'x-factor' (sorry)
* 2 hours of freestyle
* and any extra things like free parking etc.


I started to think this a great idea, but then realised this would not work financially and would end up creating a large barrier between the good experienced dancers (notice i don't mention bad experienced dancers) :wink: and beginners. Although is this not already happening in every venue by the stage anyway. :rolleyes:

Lee
I'm blonde, what's your excuse?
Copyright ‘LMC’

[CJ]

Am fully aware that the Tue night in Ealing is not Hipsters.

However, is it not an "advanced" night as such, with extended freestyle, etc? :confused: (albeit without the WCS element :blush: )

Perhaps, before you continue your theory that such a night does not exist, you could sample the Tue to see what it's all about? :rolleyes:

If you choose this week, then I'll see you there... :cheers:

[Paul F]

As little as I know about business, I do believe that the most important thing is to be able to communicate to your potential customers, what the benefit *for them* is to buying your product. So just putting on a WCS class and hoping to osmose people away from MJ is unlikely to work. You'd have to really demonstrate *why* they should be learning a new style of dance, what it will do for them, and why it's worth the steep learning curve. Then it's a real business, and not just another dance class.

The same thing applies to your proposed new Hopsters evening. If the selling point is that it's for advanced dancers only you'd need to put a lot of effort into selling it as that - persuading people that they'll have more fun, get bashed less, have better music to dance to and so on. (Then of course you have to live up to it.) I can't see that just opening a new evening, billing it as 'advanced' and hoping everyone "advanced" will come along will do the trick.

There was a shop on Fulham Road which marketed itself primarily as "exclusive". They got a lot of publicity at the time they opened because you had to ring a doorbell before you were allowed in (even famous supermodels.) A shop assistant would look you up and down through the window and assess if you were their kind of customer before you could browse the exclusive, and presumably expensive, clothes. It went out of business in about six months. As far as I could see they failed to explain to anyone why they should want to subject themselves to this procedure - in other words they didn't sell the clothes as being worthy of that kind of exclusivity.

So if you are going to have a dance night that caters exclusively for advanced dancers - noting your own use of bold type - on what basis are you going to sell it to your potential customer base of advanced dancers?

By exclusive I meant the lack of beginners classes. You would never be able to forceably ensure no beginners come in , although that brings with it many humerous images :D , but the advanced nature (and i would like to use a different word) would be there by implication surely?

As for selling the night. The current WCS advertising would carry on which may attract a lot of people meanwhile people simply seeing the dance will make a lot want to do it. Of that I am certian :)

I completely agree with what your saying about selling it as a business but without the time-consuming backing that a business needs other avenues have to be approached.

Im happy to accept if its not a viable way forward but i cant help but think it would work better than the current situation.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Plus, with this forum, the organiser has an immediate mechanism to target the advanced dancers.I missed this bit originally, but be aware that Franck has (I think) a no advertising policy in place for anyone who doesn't hold the more expensive commercial membership, and that these memberships are no longer available and not being renewed as they expire.

(I think that's the Forum policy at the moment, right?)

[Paul F]

Am fully aware that the Tue night in Ealing is not Hipsters.

However, is it not an "advanced" night as such, with extended freestyle, etc? :confused:

Perhaps, before you continue your theory that such a night does not exist, you could sample the Tue to see what it's all about? :rolleyes:

If you choose this week, then I'll see you there... :cheers:


Funny you should mention that as I was going to go and have a go :clap:

I would love it if it turns out that this is the case (although it clashes with Farnham) but it was advertised as 1 intermediate class with freestyle by teachers that were a mystery.
It didnt grab me :blush:

hopefully meet you on tuesday though :cheers:

[Paul F]

I missed this bit originally, but be aware that Franck has (I think) a no advertising policy in place for anyone who doesn't hold the more expensive commercial membership, and that these memberships are no longer available and not being renewed as they expire.

(I think that's the Forum policy at the moment, right?)


Thats a good point. I suppose it would have to be by word of mouth around the 'london scene' which may prove more difficult.

[El Salsero Gringo]

By exclusive I meant the lack of beginners classes. You would never be able to forceably ensure no beginners come in , although that brings with it many humerous images :D , but the advanced nature (and i would like to use a different word) would be there by implication surely?

As for selling the night. The current WCS advertising would carry on which may attract a lot of people meanwhile people simply seeing the dance will make a lot want to do it. Of that I am certian :) It's only seeing US competition videos on the 'net that makes me want to try it - certainly almost nothing I've seen in two months of classes is particularly inspiring - not considering the time and effort involved in learning a new style of dance. And which current WCS advertising? Not very effective at the moment is it?
I completely agree with what your saying about selling it as a business but without the time-consuming backing that a business needs other avenues have to be approached. I'm afraid that there are ways to get things going without much ready cash, but there aren't any ways to get things going without a lot of time and effort. Without the 'time-consuming backing' - it's not going to happen.
Im happy to accept if its not a viable way forward but i cant help but think it would work better than the current situation.I don't doubt that it's possibly viable, but I think that finding the venue, teacher and deciding the format is the interesting, easy, 1% of what's needed. I don't accept that just putting the evening on and expecting dancers and their cash will flock to you is going to work. I would *love* to hear ideas for what goes into the other 99%, but I've no doubt that those that know ain't saying and vice versa.

[David Franklin]

By exclusive I meant the lack of beginners classes. You would never be able to forceably ensure no beginners come in , although that brings with it many humerous images :D , but the advanced nature (and i would like to use a different word) would be there by implication surely?I have no problems with beginners at an advanced venue. It's the "5 years' experience in bad habits" dancers that are the problem.

The more general problem is "advanced" is such a subjective term. Most people think it would be great to have a venue for advanced dancers, but they always assume they will be in the "advanced" group. (Then they find they can't do the lessons, so start coming just for the freestyle...)

It's often the worst dancers who are convinced they're advanced - if you think about it, Hipsters probably had more "must avoid" dancers than any of the London Ceroc venues.

[Paul F]

It's only seeing US competition videos on the 'net that makes me want to try it - certainly almost nothing I've seen in two months of classes is particularly inspiring - not considering the time and effort involved in learning a new style of dance. And which current WCS advertising? Not very effective at the moment is it?I'm afraid that there are ways to get things going without much ready cash, but there aren't any ways to get things going without a lot of time and effort. Without the 'time-consuming backing' - it's not going to happen.I don't doubt that it's possibly viable, but I think that finding the venue, teacher and deciding the format is the interesting, easy, 1% of what's needed. I don't accept that just putting the evening on and expecting dancers and their cash will flock to you is going to work. I would *love* to hear ideas for what goes into the other 99%, but I've no doubt that those that know ain't saying and vice versa.

I didnt say the advertising was good, I just said it would be used.
(sorry that sounds snippy. I dont mean it to be :flower: )

Finding a venue, sorting out formats, finding the extra 99% etc. ......isnt that whats happening with the WCS classes now?
Utilising a contained room is simply a switch in venue with the 'possibility' of enhancing your customer base.

When it comes to defining that 99% I have to redirect that to business like people. This is certainly not me :tears:

[Paul F]

I have no problems with beginners at an advanced venue. It's the "5 years' experience in bad habits" dancers that are the problem.

The more general problem is "advanced" is such a subjective term. Most people think it would be great to have a venue for advanced dancers, but they always assume they will be in the "advanced" group. (Then they find they can't do the lessons, so start coming just for the freestyle...)

It's often the worst dancers who are convinced they're advanced - if you think about it, Hipsters probably had more "must avoid" dancers than any of the London Ceroc venues.


Am i the only one that wants another hipsters-like night back
:tears: :tears:

There is always this issue about advanced but it seemed to bring many many people in week on week.
Im overlooking the fact that other nights such as nosequins helped bring about the end of hipsters but i still say i would travel for a night like the one suggested.
I could be on my own :rolleyes: faced with a £500 door fee

[El Salsero Gringo]

(sorry that sounds snippy. I dont mean it to be :flower: )Don't worry about it! - I'm the master of sounding snippy when I don't mean to be.

Finding a venue, sorting out formats, finding the extra 99% etc. ......isnt that whats happening with the WCS classes now?You've been doing WCS far longer than I. Bearing in mind that there used to be a weekly WCS class at Hipsters on Tuesdays, downstairs, I think - which has ceased, and that Cat's class is the only one in the entirety of London - do you really think any progress has been made? Or is going to be? I wonder if there aren't lots of people on the Forum who have tried it and effectively given up, which if true doesn't really square with the idea that WCS is just waiting to take off.

[Paul F]

Don't worry about it! - I'm the master of sounding snippy when I don't mean to be.You've been doing WCS far longer than I. Bearing in mind that there used to be a weekly WCS class at Hipsters on Tuesdays, downstairs, I think - which has ceased, and that Cat's class is the only one in the entirety of London - do you really think any progress has been made? Or is going to be? I wonder if there aren't lots of people on the Forum who have tried it and effectively given up, which if true doesn't really square with the idea that WCS is just waiting to take off.


there is always a risk but it would be interesting to know about people who have tried and given up. Without some real research i just have to cling to the hope that it IS the next 'sliced bread' :D

[Rhythm King]

~snip~ and that Cat's class is the only one in the entirety of London ~snip~

Don't forget Surbiton on a Friday night, with the excellent Paul Warden & Sally Tomlyn and indeed Catriona sometimes teaches there too. OK so it's technically Surrey, but it's till Greater London.

There are more WCS classes appearing at weekenders and workshops (eg the newly Ceroc'd Rebel Yell) and there is even a WCS tea dance coming up at Hammersmith on 2 Oct.

Hipsters is sorely missed, but it would have to offer something special in the music and teaching departments if was to re-establish itself. I think JB is entirely correct in what he wrote.

I quite like dancing with beginners, and seeing the penny drop, when things fall into place. It's quite often those who have been coming for 4 or 5 years and think they are good enough not to do the classes who can be the problem, as mentioned by David Franklin.

R-K

[TiggsTours]

So, I think we've established that there are plenty of nights around catering for the more advanced dancer, just not in Paul F's neck of the woods!

[Paul F]

The main reason for bringing this thread up was to explore the possibility of an advanced Mj night. The WCS addition is just something that I would like personally.

If there is no call for an advanced night then fair enough. I would have enjoyed it but I guess I am the only one :(

[Cruella]

Going slightly off thread. Has anyone experienced Surbiton? I was supposed to be doing a 2 hour drive tonight with the guy i dance WCS with but he has cried off. :tears: Don't want to drive all that way if there is a lack of men or dancing. Ideally would like a man to go with but as they are few and far between in this area with WCS experience, and such short notice it's looking highly unlikely that i will go. :sad:

[Paul F]

Going slightly off thread. Has anyone experienced Surbiton? I was supposed to be doing a 2 hour drive tonight with the guy i dance WCS with but he has cried off. :tears: Don't want to drive all that way if there is a lack of men or dancing. Ideally would like a man to go with but as they are few and far between in this area with WCS experience, and such short notice it's looking highly unlikely that i will go. :sad:

Oh no :(

I have just convinced myself to give WCS a miss for 1 night in favour of the freestyle in Oxford tonight.

Surbiton is good. I believe Cat is teaching there tonight. There was about 40 there last time and that was with a particularly bad driving night. Many people gave u trying to get there so there is a good chance it will be even busier - traffic allowing.

[Cruella]

Oh no :(

I have just convinced myself to give WCS a miss for 1 night in favour of the freestyle in Oxford tonight.

Surbiton is good. I believe Cat is teaching there tonight. There was about 40 there last time and that was with a particularly bad driving night. Many people gave u trying to get there so there is a good chance it will be even busier - traffic allowing.

Oxford is tomorrow night!! I'll be there too!!

[Paul F]

Oxford is tomorrow night!! I'll be there too!!

there is one tonight too apparently run by Jive+

I must just love driving :rolleyes:

[Dancing Teeth]

First and foremost I am not advertising a night as it doesnt exist yet so Im hoping this doesnt get deleted :grin:

Im wondering if it would be a good idea for someone (not me) to step up to the plate and organise a replacement for the now-changed hipsters.

As far as I can tell London , and quite frankly anywhere, does not have a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.


What I would love to see is:

* Decent venue - doesnt have to be a palace
* 1 or 2 advanced/speciality classes in one hall.
* West Coast Swing in the second hall - the potential is there for this to really grow and the 2 rooms really brings an added 'x-factor' (sorry)
* 2 hours of freestyle
* and any extra things like free parking etc.

I can only speak from a personal viewpoint but I would happily sit in , over an hour, of surrey traffic to get into London if such a night ran and i am definately not the only one.
Plus, with this forum, the organiser has an immediate mechanism to target the advanced dancers.

I really really want to see such a night created once again but is it viable?

I suppose the main question is who would teach these advanced lessons. Any ideas? There has to be well respected teachers in the area.

Ok, so if it is viable, is there anybody that wants to take up the challenge?
You would have 1 customer......me :flower:


Teacher's hat off… here goes…. :grin:


Be carefully what you wish for my friend.!!!

A mans wealth is not measured by the size of his wallet but by his income flow, for a heavy wallet will always end up entry without income.

New people (beginners in this case) are essential, to keep an equilibrium on things. It’s a new experience, fun and they are great to watch as you’re having a drink.

In my years in MJ, I’ve seen my advanced nights which are usually full to a greater percentage by people so far up there own b****sides, that the night it’s self like it’s regulars will also retract and collapse in on itself, for many reasons like people not wanting to dance with you because they feel they are better than you etc etc, but I think the most important is, NO NEW BLOOD.

:wink:

[DavidB]

NO NEW BLOOD.Important consideration - given your Avatar...

[Dancing Teeth]

Important consideration - given your Avatar...

Nice one David.... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Paul F]

Teacher's hat off… here goes…. :grin:


Be carefully what you wish for my friend.!!!

A mans wealth is not measured by the size of his wallet but by his income flow, for a heavy wallet will always end up entry without income.

New people (beginners in this case) are essential, to keep an equilibrium on things. It’s a new experience, fun and they are great to watch as you’re having a drink.

In my years in MJ, I’ve seen my advanced nights which are usually full to a greater percentage by people so far up there own b****sides, that the night it’s self like it’s regulars will also retract and collapse in on itself, for many reasons like people not wanting to dance with you because they feel they are better than you etc etc, but I think the most important is, NO NEW BLOOD.

:wink:


WOW :what: I wasnt expecting that :nice:

Ok, I have had one of the best ever DJs and one of the best ever teachers on the circuit tell me it wont work. :(

I hereby declare that this was a bad idea and i am now going to go and sit in the corner of the room facing the wall.

:)

I like the bit about the wallet though DT. Can i use this in casual conversation? ;)

[Dancing Teeth]

WOW :what: I wasnt expecting that :nice:

Ok, I have had one of the best ever DJs and one of the best ever teachers on the circuit tell me it wont work. :(

I hereby declare that this was a bad idea and i am now going to go and sit in the corner of the room facing the wall.

:)

I like the bit about the wallet though DT. Can i use this in casual conversation? ;)

ofcause you can Paul..... :nice:

Hey listen, I was'nt having a go. Just trying to explain that a night without new people is doomed. You go there and you see the same old faces week after week after week. :tears: how boring is that even if they are good dances. Afterall we all had to start somewhere. :clap:

You can have the best teacher and DJ around,!! and it might indeed work for a while, hence the full wallet.... Were will your income come from Paul..?? :waycool:

You can come away from the wall now... :grin:

hope you have a nice day Dude.. Vik.

[Paul F]

ofcause you can Paul..... :nice:

Hey listen, I was'nt having a go. Just trying to explain that a night without new people is doomed. You go there and you see the same old faces week after week after week. :tears: how boring is that even if they are good dances. Afterall we all had to start somewhere. :clap:

You can have the best teacher and DJ around,!! and it might indeed work for a while, hence the full wallet.... Were will your income come from Paul..?? :waycool:

You can come away from the wall now... :grin:

hope you have a nice day Dude.. Vik.

I had to come away from the wall as my boss threatened to sack me if i didnt get on with some work :D

No worries. I know you weren't having a go :cheers:

Im still going to hope one comes about though. :wink:

[Tessalicious]

I had to come away from the wall as my boss threatened to sack me if i didnt get on with some work :D

No worries. I know you weren't having a go :cheers:

Im still going to hope one comes about though. :wink:Rather than it being a bad idea, I think the mistake you made, Paul, is to be have mentioned this on the public section of the forum.

Obviously you need the invitation-only, advanced-enough-dancers/cool-enough-people section that doesn't really exist, nudge-nudge-wink-wink.

When you're judged good enough to be invited to join that group, as decided by a secret committee whose identities are not know even to each other, then will open up a whole new underworld of nights just like this that only the elite few know about...

Naturally, I'm hypothesising, since I'm not good enough to be part of it, or is that a double bluff? Or was your original post a bluff to demonstrate your lack of elitist knowledge? I guess we'll never know.

[David Franklin]

You can have the best teacher and DJ around,!! and it might indeed work for a while, hence the full wallet.... Were will your income come from Paul..?? :waycool: The obvious place is dancers 'graduating' from the MJ venues that do teach beginners - there's an obvious analogy with schools and universities. Getting it to work in practice is another matter.

For what it's worth, I think Jango comes closer to my vision of an advanced venue than anywhere else I've seen. It's partly the teaching - I think Will and Kate have done a great job at pitching the level just about perfectly (for me). But I think it's also a function of the relatively small venue and numbers, which mean people get to know each other. It's a very supportive environment for those who do want to learn. I'm not convinced you could do the same thing with a "super venue" catering for over 100 dancers.

[bigdjiver]

My vast experience of WCS is one night at a Fred & Becky's freestyle, when I got there after the class, and I drool over the champs WCS vids on the Web. For two years my night a F&B's was my best ever nights dancing, because, despite there being a surplus of men, I was in constant demand to do MJ with a collection of great dancers.

It is just possible that WCS would not be where it is today in the States if it had to compete with MJ from the start, because of the learning curve. One does not need to dance like the better WCS dancers in order to have a great time, MJ will meet most folks needs. MJ will indeed be a good feeder for WCS where the most stylish dancers are concerned, but it could also pull away a lot of the beginners who want more "bang per buck". Regretably I think WCS may continue to struggle to expand in this country, unless it can pull off something like an "as seen on TV" miracle.

An advanced venue will attract dancers, but most of them are are also pulled back to their social group at "home".

[Paul F]

Rather than it being a bad idea, I think the mistake you made, Paul, is to be have mentioned this on the public section of the forum.

Obviously you need the invitation-only, advanced-enough-dancers/cool-enough-people section that doesn't really exist, nudge-nudge-wink-wink.

When you're judged good enough to be invited to join that group, as decided by a secret committee whose identities are not know even to each other, then will open up a whole new underworld of nights just like this that only the elite few know about...


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I see your point. :what:

So what your saying is there may well already be one of these nights around?
Time to don the false hat and moustache and attempt to infiltrate this secret gang :cool:

Just trying to think of what questions i could ask potential members of this gang to see if they are part of this hotshot organisation.

How about "when you go to a venue, do you stand near the stage?"

[Gus]

Am i the only one that wants another hipsters-like night back
:tears: :tears: The basic concept is spt on and I think there IS a real need for what you are suggesting. Unfortunately the killer problems are (in my bitter experience);


Cost of a decent sized venue (in London costs can exceed £800 very easily)
Providing a Teacher and DJ up to the mark
Managing to publicise the event to the MJ public without access to the Ceroc network
The possible backlash from competing MJ organisations :(
If it could get off the group I'd love to support it but the demise of Hipsters shows just how fraught the project is.

Hey ho ... suppose I'll just have to 'slum it' Jango :wink: :waycool:

[Paul F]

Cost of a decent sized venue (in London costs can exceed £800 very easily)


without using an expletive, gosh darn it (well i am in Surrey now) I didnt realise it was that expensive :what:

[Gus]

without using an expletive, gosh darn it (well i am in Surrey now) I didnt realise it was that expensive :what:Urrrr .. meant to say £500 :blush: Still not cheap ... but then good venues up North cost over £300!

[El Salsero Gringo]

How about "when you go to a venue, do you stand near the stage?"And do your postings on the Forum include secret white-ink-on-whte-background messages in very small fonts?
a bit like this one...

[ChrisA]

It's often the worst dancers who are convinced they're advanced - if you think about it, Hipsters probably had more "must avoid" dancers than any of the London Ceroc venues.
Really? :whistle:

[Will]

As far as I can tell London , and quite frankly anywhere, does not have a night that caters exclusively to the more experienced dancer. I believe there are nights that run advanced classes HOWEVER these classes also target beginners with beginner classes.

I would say that Monday Night Jango is a class that caters exclusively to more advanced dancers. Indeed, we don't have the time or space to run a beginners class, so we've got a load of Ceroc London flyers on the door, and Kate & I make a point of dancing with any beginners that do come, and also finding out where they live so that we can inform them of their closest Ceroc venue.

[Lounge Lizard]

Paul
at the Winning Post in Twickenham - very close and accessable to you we offered the following
Advance classes on a rotational week by week basis from the best we could find from
Simon Selmon
Nina Daines
Amir
Rena
Nicole Cutler
We had two hours freestyle every night with me DJ'ing
Our sound system was really good
the venue had air conditioning, car parking, easy access
each table had tableclothes, candles flowers
The dance floor was fantastic (Simon Selmon was very impressed with it)
it had everything you want (and beginners classes taught by me and Evelyne)....well everything that is except dancers, average attendance was 25, we lost count on how many said they would come back WHEN IT GOT BUSIER - we thought there was a demand for this type of venue, we even tried mixing WCS & MJ, like JB said this does not work well.

My advice is go to your regular venue, make the new dancers feel good and enjoy the experience, cos one day they could well become the dance gods of tomorrow.
Hipsters was a mix of the Best in MJ (Nigel) best in Lindy (Andy & Rena) best DJ in the UK (Jon Brett) joining forces, bring those three components back and you will have a new Hipsters)
peter

[Paul F]

Some very good points there LL + will.

It does appear as the event that was hipsters may never be repeated.
I guess I was after something too perfect for my particular wants + desires :blush: rather than those of the general public.

Im glad I asked the question though. Although I, personally, would still like to see it happen I completely understand that in the current climate it simply may not succeed. The evidence seems to support this.

I intend to try and get to Jango as I have heard nothing but great things. Its just mondays :sick: Its always a bit trickier for me to get of work early enough to endure the endless queue that is the london transport network.


LL - is the night you talk about still going on. It really does sound good but I can see what you mean about the dreaded catch 22. People wont turn up without people there :mad:

[Paul F]

And do your postings on the Forum include secret white-ink-on-whte-background messages in very small fonts?
a bit like this one...

Have you seen the film "conspiracy theory"? Im starting to feel like our Mel :grin:
You're all plotting against me i can tell :sick:

[Lounge Lizard]

LL - is the night you talk about still going on. It really does sound good but I can see what you mean about the dreaded catch 22. People wont turn up without people there :mad:
no - it was running for 6 months and that was enough.
And yes it really was a good night classes focusing on musicality and music was a mix of Latin, Swing, blues, Pop, + RnB
there was so much room for dancing half the venue was used for competition practice by some (with our blessing & encouragement)

I am suprised you did not know about it
It was promoted by Jump & Jive, on this forum, My mailing list, Leroc Dorking, UK Jive Website, at Southport etc. etc.
p

[Paul F]

no - it was running for 6 months and that was enough.
And yes it really was a good night classes focusing on musicality and music was a mix of Latin, Swing, blues, Pop, + RnB
there was so much room for dancing half the venue was used for competition practice by some (with our blessing & encouragement)

I am suprised you did not know about it
It was promoted by Jump & Jive, on this forum, My mailing list, Leroc Dorking, UK Jive Website, at Southport etc. etc.
p


To be honest, with my memory, if I hadnt seen an advert for it since moving down here I wouldnt have remembered :blush:

Thats a real shame. I would have been there for sure.

[Toby wan Kenobe]

I think that WCS will be massive in the UK. Mainly because it can be danced to the modern R&B tunes that are not ideal for MJ. But at the moment WCS is still very much in its infancy. Until there's a bit more experience out there, pure WCS nights are the way to go.
Jon
WCS the new Ceroc
Hmmm. I like WCS, I think it will be very popular, but not on the same scale as MJ/Ceroc. Why? Because MJ is easy, there's little footwork and that makes it accessible to the masses. WCS is cool, but the footwork means you have to 'have your head on'. Most MJ/Ceroc dancers are out for an evening's fun and entertainment, not to work on their dancing. Forumites excepted of course - but the Forum ain't the dance market!

Pure Evenings
Are difficult because, being niche, they appeal to smaller audiences.
Mainstream event organisers try and strike a happy balance by aiming the event at a broader target audience - and the music needs to be a whole mix of stuff, bitsa jive, bitsa pop, bitsa swing, bitsa chart, bitsa lindy. Yes they pull in a bigger audience but dancers end up liking some music, and not liking other tracks. So you get mostly happy dancers and a busy night, but a bunch of the keener dancers are left wanting something a bit different.

Toons
On the music side, I love the challenge of playing to different dance nights and events, and coming up with the bitsa mix that keeps everybody happy (whilst slipping in da Kenobe every now and then :devil: ). I DJ because I love dancing and I love the music. Given free reign (Jango) then my personal challenge is to find those elusive tracks that i) sound fabtastic, ii) grab you by the dancing dangly bits, and iii) appeal to a variety of different dance styles. By trial and error I have found that there is scope for playing tracks that work for both MJ and WCS, some of them are indeed R&B/Groove/hiphop/Rap. This probably works for me because I tend not to play the faster MJ (Lindy type) tracks, therefore the MJ tracks I do play aren't such a contrast with the WCSwingable tracks. Beginners WCSers would still probably struggle because the music would be faster than class WCS tracks.
So I reckon there is music that would underpin a MJ/WCS focussed night....

A Southport highlight for me was playing a set in the bluesville room, I played a Kenobe Cool Groove set, not a single blues track ( -step away from the neg rep button!!! I know not to try and compete with the Blues experts.). It was great to see such a mix of Jivers Bluesers WCSers Hiphoppers doing their special thing. Most likely, because it was Southport, people were going to dance come what may, but I'd like to think the music played a part.

I reckon a joint MJ/WCS night could work, it may need to be a monthly rather than a weekly event. You will never know if you don't try.

TwK

[Rachel]

Curious ... don't you think that the new JiveTime Ealing night couldn't turn out to be as good as Hipsters? Granted, we don't have Jon Brett or Nigel, but Franco and Roger both seem very open to feedback and keen on making the changes needed to make it work.

We'll have to see what happens … As a customer, I have no special loyalty to any particular organisation but would love to see another successful Hipsters-type venue (I do miss it) - great music, people, easy to get to/park and, esp, going on til 11.30pm.

I definitely agree with Dancing Teeth re. new blood. I've never felt the need for a regular venue aimed exclusively at advanced dancers. Just think - how many girls have you danced with who have never been to MJ before, but who followed beautifully and felt absolutely natural? How about people like Killingtime who's only been dancing a few months and is already superb?

Would you really want to exclude people like that who may feel as if they're not experienced enough to come in? New Blood's good!

I really strongly believe (though I'm an idealist and, of course, I've never tried it!) that if you teach people correctly from the start, there's no reason why beginners can't become 'advanced'/wonderful to dance with very quickly.

Rachel

[Dancing Teeth]

I definitely agree with Dancing Teeth re. new blood. I've never felt the need for a regular venue aimed exclusively at advanced dancers. Just think - how many girls have you danced with who have never been to MJ before, but who followed beautifully and felt absolutely natural? How about people like Killingtime who's only been dancing a few months and is already superb?

Would you really want to exclude people like that who may feel as if they're not experienced enough to come in? New Blood's good!

I really strongly believe (though I'm an idealist and, of course, I've never tried it!) that if you teach people correctly from the start, there's no reason why beginners can't become 'advanced'/wonderful to dance with very quickly.

Rachel

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

[Paul F]

Curious ... don't you think that the new JiveTime Ealing night couldn't turn out to be as good as Hipsters? Granted, we don't have Jon Brett or Nigel, but Franco and Roger both seem very open to feedback and keen on making the changes needed to make it work.

We'll have to see what happens … As a customer, I have no special loyalty to any particular organisation but would love to see another successful Hipsters-type venue (I do miss it) - great music, people, easy to get to/park and, esp, going on til 11.30pm.

I definitely agree with Dancing Teeth re. new blood. I've never felt the need for a regular venue aimed exclusively at advanced dancers. Just think - how many girls have you danced with who have never been to MJ before, but who followed beautifully and felt absolutely natural? How about people like Killingtime who's only been dancing a few months and is already superb?

Would you really want to exclude people like that who may feel as if they're not experienced enough to come in? New Blood's good!

I really strongly believe (though I'm an idealist and, of course, I've never tried it!) that if you teach people correctly from the start, there's no reason why beginners can't become 'advanced'/wonderful to dance with very quickly.

Rachel


Understand completely with what you are saying and agree in the main.

BUT :)

Do you think Hipsters would have done so well, at its prime, attracting the best dancers on a regular basis if, at say 8pm, it had a beginners class then the usual masterclass at 9?

One of two things would have happened. Either the beginners class would have stopped as most beginners would have felt rather intimidated OR some (only some) of the better dancers would not have come along.
Either way I dont think it would have been as popular. :devil:

[Dancing Teeth]

BUT :)

Do you think Hipsters would have done so well, at its prime, attracting the best dancers on a regular basis if, at say 8pm, it had a beginners class then the usual masterclass at 9?

One of two things would have happened. Either the beginners class would have stopped as most beginners would have felt rather intimidated OR some (only some) of the better dancers would not have come along.
Either way I dont think it would have been as popular. :devil:

They did have a beginners Class. The beginners where asked to go on the Wednesday, at least there was an outlet...

[Paul F]

They did have a beginners Class. The beginners where asked to go on the Wednesday, at least there was an outlet...

True. I used to enjoy Wednesdays as well as a Tuesday. However it never felt as busy on a wednesday (one of the reasons i enjoyed it) and the standard of dancing on a tuesday was always perceived as being of a higher standard. Whether this perception was justified is another thread :grin:

Had a beginner class been introduced on a tuesday, I think the number of advanced dancers travelling 60/70/80 miles to get there will have dropped or the beginners would not have turned up.

[Ballroom queen]

..........and Kate & I make a point of dancing with any beginners that do come, ............


oh my god, I hope that wasn't why you danced with me the other week??????