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Graham
13th-January-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Graham ... thanks for reviving my absent memory ... but what was your reaction when you first saw Boy George's features on TV ... share..:wink:

Hmmm. I'm not sure I can remember my first reaction, but I do remember the whole boy/girl thing, and then the straight/gay issue. I thought he had to be gay, as it would have been too much to put himself through if he wasn't.

Emma
13th-January-2003, 01:07 PM
Slightly off thread but, did you see the 'top ten electro pop' programme this weekend?

Apart from being transported back to my early teenaged years (on thread! on thread!!) I thought one of the most interesting things about it was the stuff about the gay element. Bronski Beat were apparantly the first openly gay band. The Pet Shop Boys weren't openly gay - but couldn't we tell? It's blindingly obvious to me now that Vince Clarke is gay but I don't remember it even crossing my mind at the time. What was wrong with us? Or maybe it was that I was only 13 and as yet an innocent :)

Gus
13th-January-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Emma
It's blindingly obvious to me now that Vince Clarke is gay but I don't remember it even crossing my mind at the time. What was wrong with us? Or maybe it was that I was only 13 and as yet an innocent :)

TOTALY OFF THREAD .....

Good point ... but counter point .... WHO CARES??

Met loads of gay guys over the last 10 years (some became mates) ... and never really had a problem ... with the exception of one class at Central Club where a very effeminate chap joined the ladies line the night that the routine involved some very close moves and a deep drop .... never seen so many big blokes looking petrified ......

Graham
13th-January-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Emma
The Pet Shop Boys weren't openly gay - but couldn't we tell? It's blindingly obvious to me now that Vince Clarke is gay but I don't remember it even crossing my mind at the time. What was wrong with us? Or maybe it was that I was only 13 and as yet an innocent :)

I didn't see the programme, but I know what you mean - I remember seeing the Pet Shop Boys being interviewed a few months back, and thinking that they seemed much "gayer" than I remembered. Maybe they really did try to disguise it back then? I'd need to see some archive footage. Or your innocence theory may apply to me too. :grin:

Gus
13th-January-2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Graham


I didn't see the programme, but I know what you mean - I remember seeing the Pet Shop Boys being interviewed a few months back, and thinking that they seemed much "gayer" than I remembered.


I remember going to an early Tom Robinson Band gig (at the tender age of 16, and (along with everyone else in the audience) singing "Sing if you're gald to be gay" ..... just a song to 99% of the audience. Interestingly enough our School Headmaster was furious when he found out pupils had gone to the concert ... and that Mr Robinson had appeared on stage wearing our School uniform and tie ..... could be something to do with the fact that my school was a Christian Brothers Grammar School .... not that I would ever accuse them of being homophobic:wink:

Emma
13th-January-2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Gus


TOTALLY OFF THREAD .....

Good point ... but counter point .... WHO CARES??



Heh..not me, not at all! I just thought it was interesting.

Gus
13th-January-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Emma


Heh..not me, not at all! I just thought it was interesting.

Sorry ... badly phrased response by me ...

What I meant was ... does anyone care if some is gay?? Not quite a rhetorical question ... being somewhat more ancientnthan yourslef I remeber the gay rights movements, gay bashing, outing etc. .... and it was seriously less than funny at the time. Have attitudes changed? If you list all the 'known' gay artists (at least male) a heck of a lot are the better ones were/are gay ..... and the rest seem to be cocaine snorting/sex crazed beasts ..... hmmmm, may be time for a career change:devil:

Emma
13th-January-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Gus

... does anyone care if some is gay??

Sadly I think rather a lot of people care if someone is gay, which has always rather bewildered me.

I was amazed recently by the attitudes of several people whom I know to be intelligent individuals to a transvestite (and I realise he may or may not have been gay) who came to a venue I dance at recently. Most of it seemed to be born out of fear if I'm being charitable. But there were people who were seriously considering either not dancing or even not attending again because of it. Now that is scary.

Gus
13th-January-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Emma


I was amazed recently by the attitudes of several people whom I know to be intelligent individuals to a transvestite (and I realise he may or may not have been gay) who came to a venue I dance at recently. ..Now that is scary.


Franck ... can you move this discussion to a new thread?

Sorry ... but I'd have to say I have some sympathy with this latter category. I'm NOT homophobic but will openly admit that I do feel 'uncomfortable' around very camp lads and especially transvestites ... I don't feel threatened ... just don't like it .. and thats my right as an individual. I may enjoy dancing with lads as a bit of a laugh but please don't expect male dancers to relish the prospect of a 'serious' dance with a transvestite.

As sad as it may be I've heard of at least one Modern Jive club that eneded up closing after an influx of male gay dancers who insisted on dancing the 'follow' role with straight men.

If I'm in a minority with this view ... I'm sorry ... but for once maybe I'm in the majority.

Emma
13th-January-2003, 02:35 PM
I don't think your point of view is the minority: what saddens me is that people would stop doing something that they love because of it. I don't really understand why the men who really were bothered couldn't just say they didn't want to dance/needed a drink/whatever at the end of the class at the point of going into freestyle. Actually this particular individual wasn't asking other guys to dance as far as I'm aware, s/he was waiting to be asked. In which case it's entirely up to the other people at the venue whether or not they as him/her to dance, and his/her presence shouldn't really be an issue

Gus
13th-January-2003, 02:39 PM
Fair comment .... misunderstood what you said.

As at the incident at the Central Club, didn't put anyone off going the following week, and in freetsyle he just danced with his boyfriend ... and everyone seemed pretty OK about that.

Gadget
13th-January-2003, 02:50 PM
Most of the discussion is with reference to gay men; why is it that is seems to be only the men who are uncomfortable with dancing with their own sex than women ?

I suppose that it's the 'handbag' thing; women are used to dancing with their friends, and see the dance as just a dance. Men on the other hand tend to only dance with women that they want to get into bed with {I'm talking 'club/disco' dancing, not 'ceroc',... although :devil: :innocent:..}

Thinking more... a lot of dance is about flirting with your partner - if you feel 'uncomfortable' (subjective term) with your partner, then a lot of the style and moves that you would normally put in to flirt would be absent.

Myself, I would see a gay man who is dancing as a follower in the same light as any follower.

TheTramp
13th-January-2003, 03:06 PM
Have to agree with Gadget's last point.

If you are a guy, and you're happy dancing with other men in general (and I know that a lot of guys aren't (I found this out when I did a class as a woman once!!)), then does it matter if the guy is gay or not??

When I dance with ladies, I don't fancy or want a relationship with most of them. It's just a dance, I have (hopefully) some fun, then I say thank you and move on. If I'm dancing as a follow, then the other person is just a lead, and vice versa.

Is it more to do with the thought of what other people will think of us, rather than the actual dancing itself that's the problem??

Steve

Gadget
13th-January-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Is it more to do with the thought of what other people will think of us, rather than the actual dancing itself that's the problem??
Valid point. i think that you may have the crux of the matter; most people who dance want to show off. Ie they want others to look at them and think 'wow - cool'. So they are actively looking for others to form an opinion of them - but only from what they show of themselves on the dance floor; a filtered view of themselves. By dancing with another of the same sex, perhaps it is a piece of the show that they would not want others to form an opinion from - it does not match with the image they are trying to portray on the dance floor.
I think that other, less bias dancers, don't give a monkey's about what others think of as cool, just so long as they match that 'cool' image in their own head. Either that or are confident that their skill will be the predominant part of the performance and not the participants.
Then again, perhaps it's just that most males are raised slightly homophobic.

Gus
13th-January-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

Valid point. i think that you may have the crux of the matter; most people who dance want to show off. Ie they want others to look at them and think 'wow - cool'. .....I think that other, less bias dancers, don't give a monkey's about what others think of as cool, just so long as they match that 'cool' image in their own head. .......
Then again, perhaps it's just that most males are raised slightly homophobic.

Gadget/Tramp,

sorry but I think you guys have way missed the point. Having problems dancing with a transvestite or openly camp guy has NOTHING to do with worrying about how you are perveived on the dancefloor ... its got everything to do with being put in an uncomfortable position. I've got no problems with dancing with guys ... its fun, its bathos ... BUT I DO have a problem dancing with a transvestitive. Let me put this is context ... ignoring what others may think ..... would you feel fine walking down the street hand in hand with a very camp guy, or kissing one on the lips? If not, why not?

There are certain 'rules' of behaviour that are 'acceptable' and feel right to a hetrosexual male ... kissing an openly homosexual male tends to run contrary to those rules. In a similar way, dancing with one feels uncomfrotable. Guys dancing with guys is tends to be for fun, if it was serious then that would technically be exhibiting homosexual attributes .... how would you then call that?

TheTramp
13th-January-2003, 04:02 PM
Gus,

I agree with some of what you're saying, but I think that you missed my point too.

I wouldn't feel particularly uncomfortable dancing with a transvestite (at least, I don't think I would, I've never been in the position to find out). I wouldn't feel comfortable about walking down the street hand in hand with one, and I certainly wouldn't be ever kissing one on the lips (or any other part of the body either for that matter). But when it comes to dancing, I dance with other guys, why not one who just happens to like dressing as a woman? I wouldn't be dancing with him (her?) other than to have fun, and at the end of the dance, I'd walk away.

I think that it's up to the individual as to what they personally find comfortable/uncomfortable. Lots of men would not be comfortable dancing with another guy at all. So they would be taking the same PoV to you dancing with a straight guy, as you are to me dancing with a gay guy. I'm not saying that there's a right or a wrong here either. It is totally up to the individual.

As for exhibiting homosexual tendancies, I have to disagree. As I said before, I don't fancy most of the women I dance with. Why should the fact that I'm dancing with a gay guy mean that I fancy him? For me, it's all just dancing. If there were people watching who had a problem with it, or were concerned about my sexuality, then that's their problem, not mine.

Steve

Emma
13th-January-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Gus

..... would you feel fine walking down the street hand in hand with a very camp guy, or kissing one on the lips? If not, why not?



I don't see how you can compare this to spending three minutes on a dance floor dancing with a camp guy or transvestite...unless perhaps you would walk down the street with your 'straight' male friends or kiss them on the lips.

On a (slightly) separate issue:

I'll admit to being very slightly worried sometimes about how people will perceive me when I dance with other women - but it doesn't stop me dancing with them. And yeah, I would dance with an openly gay woman - why ever not? I don't assume that every man I dance with is interested in me, so why would a woman be?

Gus
13th-January-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Emma



I'll admit to being very slightly worried sometimes about how people will perceive me when I dance with other women - but it doesn't stop me dancing with them. And yeah, I would dance with an openly gay women - why ever not? I don't assume that every man I dance with is interested in me, so why would a woman be?

Refering back to an earlier posting ... its always been socially acceptable for ladies to dance together ... would never even occur to most men that their would be any other connotations.... however, a few female friends of mine did push their luck when they tried Blues dancing together ... they found that the female body design managed to create a few 'obstacles' to getting close enough..:sorry

Emma
13th-January-2003, 04:13 PM
Ah, yes..big knees... :wink:

Peculiar though, isn't it, that it is totally socially acceptable for women to dance together and not men. I think it is this which puzzles me. It shouldn't be so. What's sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander. :nice:

TheTramp
13th-January-2003, 04:15 PM
Ah, yes..big knees... Do you have big knees Emma? I didn't notice....

Steve

Holly
13th-January-2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Gus
a few female friends of mine did push their luck when they tried Blues dancing together ... they found that the female body design managed to create a few 'obstacles' to getting close enough..:sorry

I've danced with girls before and I'd wondered how Blues with another girl would work... I've tried Argentinean Tango with another girl and I can certainly see the attraction from a bloke's point of view...

As for gay men at Ceroc nights I really hope that it isn't an issue for most people - in that people don't think there's anything odd about it (rather than hoping that it doesn't happen).

Interesting thread, BTW.

Holly

PeterL
13th-January-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Emma
Ah, yes..big knees... :wink:

Peculiar though, isn't it, that it is totally socially acceptable for women to dance together and not men. I think it is this which puzzles me. It shouldn't be so. What's sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander. :nice:

I think this has a lot to do with how guys are in general. We are bought up different. For example I still remember being taught pub ettiquette rules by my dad, such as wait for your mate to return from the toilet before going yourself (this was sort of in jest) but it is true. Girls are far more comfortable being in compromising situations with other girls, such as they may share a bed on sleepovers, go to the toilet together, discuss sex and relationships in a non-bravado way.

This probably makes them more secure and it is a shame that men are not more secure, for example everyone who dances at the same venue as Gus probably knows he is heterosexual but he (maybe being a devil's advocate) worries about expressing homosexual tendencies by dancing with a tranvestite. A lot of guys would worrie about the same thing just dancing with another guy.

A saying I think applies well here is that we should be masculine enough to admit our own femininity.

not quite exactly right but the crux being if we are secure in our own sexuality and confident enough we shouldn't worry about others viewing our behaviour as effeminate or homosexual because we know better.

Emma
13th-January-2003, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Do you have big knees Emma? I didn't notice....

Steve

Probably because we weren't dancing blues, Steve :grin:

Gus
13th-January-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by PeterL



This probably makes them more secure and it is a shame that men are not more secure, for example everyone who dances at the same venue as Gus probably knows he is heterosexual but he (maybe being a devil's advocate) worries about expressing homosexual tendencies by dancing with a tranvestite. A lot of guys would worrie about the same thing just dancing with another guy.


First point, for a number of reasons (prediliction for wearing lycra and lots of female friends) I've been taken as being gay more times than I care to mention and have been propositioned on a fair few occaisions ... doesn't bother me.

Main point, think my previous comment didn't quite come out as hoped, thus a confused message. I'm not saying that me dancing iwth a transvestite may leed to people thinking I'm gay .... I'm saying thats it would be uncomfortable for me as it would not be something pleasant .... i.e. I like dancing with lasses because I genericaly like them and dance is a sensous and sometimes intense activity which plays on the standard female/male interaction. Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.

There are differences between men and women other than the physical and these are there for good reason. To blaze forward saying that men and women should act the same when physcogicaly and physiologically they are different is being too simplistic (IMHO). Basic differences that when Men get frustrated they get angry, Women tend to be moved to tears .... does not make one strong or another weak ... its just each sex's way of dealing with a sitiation.

In a dance environment where personal space is invaded and 'intamicay' is at least alluded to, I for one would feel a lot more comfortable persuing this with a lass than a lad. If this is considered homophobic ... then I am confused..... (no change there at least):wink:

PeterL
13th-January-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Gus



In a dance environment where personal space is invaded and 'intamicay' is at least alluded to, I for one would feel a lot more comfortable persuing this with a lass than a lad. If this is considered homophobic ... then I am confused..... (no change there at least):wink:

I must admit I agree with you here and the point Iwas making it this has a lot to do with how we are bought up. Women do not have the same issues here because they are bought up differenly.

Holly
13th-January-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Gus

Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.


Do you mean not normal (as in morally or psychologically), not normal (as in you don't see it happening) or you're not comfortable with it in your dance space?

Holly

TheTramp
13th-January-2003, 04:47 PM
In a dance environment where personal space is invaded and 'intamicay' is at least alluded to, I for one would feel a lot more comfortable persuing this with a lass than a lad. If this is considered homophobic ... then I am confusedI don't think that it should be considered homophobic. It's merely a situation that you don't feel comfortable with, and don't wish to be in. The same could be said about dancing with someone who nearly pulls your arm out of your socket (topical image as I'm finding it difficult to raise my right arm above shoulder height this morning thanks to some lass who decided that she really did want to be down at floor level at 4am on Sunday morning (if she was that tired, why didn't she just go to bed???)).

Steve

Graham
13th-January-2003, 05:03 PM
Isn't there a parallel here with blues dancing? It's been discussed at length on another thread that people need to be at a certain level of trust/intimacy to dance in this style, and that if one or both parties isn't at that level, dancing up close is going to be uncomfortable (possibly very uncomfortable).

Dreadful Scathe
13th-January-2003, 06:04 PM
homophobia is an overused term - everyone judges people by many, many criteria and to single a dislike or preference of a person down to one explanation; that youre homophobic is just plain daft.

Ill dance with anyone of course, but Id get annoyed at any stranger who was overly familiar - male or female (friends can be as familiar as they like :) ). Thats much more likely to happen with the opposite sex though - through what is perceived to be socially acceptable mainly but also a matter of sheer numbers.



on another note, heres a giraffe doing the timewarp - 50x 50 for someones avatar ;)

Gadget
13th-January-2003, 11:48 PM
I think that Gus got it right when saying that dancing is about inviting your partner into your own personal space; if you are not comfortable with that person, then you can't really dance properly with them.
I also think that this discussion of predudice need not simply be applied to gay/straight, but race, religion, age, dress, style, ...etc. For example, if you are uncomfortable dancing with people that you see as younger/older than you, then is this not invoking the same sort of bias towards your selection of partner and the moves you dance ?

IMHO I think that the best dances will be with people that you feel more comfortable with and have some spark of attraction between yourselves. The best dancers have the ability to make themselves comfotable with whatever partner they dance with and make their partner feel comforable with themselves.

Dr. Feelgood
14th-January-2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

on another note, heres a giraffe doing the timewarp - 50x 50 for someones avatar ;)

re DS's other note, this would be useful if it was possible to upload custom 'avatars' ... but it seems not be. Obviously it must have been at some point but it isn't any more. Is it just I or have others found this to be the case?

ok - back to your discussion of homophobia...

:cheers:

TheTramp
14th-January-2003, 12:47 AM
Ummm. Well, I haven't changed my avatar yet this week, but certainly last week you could upload new avatars from either the web or your own computer.

Go to your PM page, there is an option near the top to 'Edit Options'. At the bottom of that page is an option to 'Change Avatar', and at the bottom of that page, are options to upload from the web or your computer.

All avatars have a maximum dimension of 96 pixels, so you could make the giraffe a little bigger if you wanted. I suggest using Online GIF editor (http://fortunecity.gifworks.com/index.html) which works nicely for me.....

Hope that this helps....

Steve

Emma
14th-January-2003, 12:54 AM
I'm not dancing with a giraffe..it's not normal..I'm giraffeophobic, I admit it. :what:

And my arms are too short, as well. :waycool:

Tiggerbabe
14th-January-2003, 01:41 AM
Just as an aside - do you think it's possible that a same sex couple would ever win one of the championships? I've seen a few females dancing together both in the Ceroc champs in London and also at Chance2dance in Blackpool but they didn't seem to progress very far.

One of the best couples I've ever seen dancing together were the Milk Tray Boys from last year's C2D comp - I believe they were third but quite honestly I think they were good enough to win it and I wonder if they didn't just because it was 2 blokes dancing together.
I've been told though, that they danced again in London but really hammed it up, with suspenders etc and some people who were there thought that this spoiled their performance (can't say as I didn't see them in London).

I often dance as a man in the class and some women are NOT comfortable with that although the majority seem not to mind. Also if I'm at a freestyle and a good record comes on I would definitely ask another girl to dance if no-one asked me up. I've not been refused yet............:wink:

One last thought - I'm finding it quite amusing that we are all discussing gay men as my husband thinks that applies to any man who prefers dancing to standing at the bar. In fact he finds it hard to believe that some of you have girlfriends or EVEN wives.
But lets not tell him the tuth eh? Probably wouldn't let me out again.:wink:

John S
17th-January-2003, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Sheena
Just as an aside - do you think it's possible that a same sex couple would ever win one of the championships? I've seen a few females dancing together both in the Ceroc champs in London and also at Chance2dance in Blackpool but they didn't seem to progress very far.

Well, the three girls won the Double Trouble (?Treble Trouble?)at the Ceroc Championships, so I guess there's a precedent!


One of the best couples I've ever seen dancing together were the Milk Tray Boys from last year's C2D comp - I believe they were third but quite honestly I think they were good enough to win it and I wonder if they didn't just because it was 2 blokes dancing together.

They were certainly good enough, and I don't know how judges differentiate between 1st/2nd/3rd at that level so I agree it is possible they were perceived to be giving out the wrong "image". Also to be fair, part of their eyecatchingness (is that a word?) was maybe the novelty factor.


I've been told though, that they danced again in London but really hammed it up, with suspenders etc and some people who were there thought that this spoiled their performance (can't say as I didn't see them in London).

It's all out there on show in the Ceroc Championship video. And as I was in the same heat and dancing beside them, it was even worse when they started to disrobe down to their underwear! Fair put me off my yo-yo. Actually, I did think it was unnecessary, and spoiled it for themselves and for those dancing at the same time. Sorry if that sounds like sour grapes.


One last thought - I'm finding it quite amusing that we are all discussing gay men as my husband thinks that applies to any man who prefers dancing to standing at the bar. In fact he finds it hard to believe that some of you have girlfriends or EVEN wives.
But lets not tell him the truth eh? Probably wouldn't let me out again.:wink:

What's it worth to keep quiet then, Sheena?

Lou
17th-January-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Sheena
I often dance as a man in the class and some women are NOT comfortable with that although the majority seem not to mind.
Also if I'm at a freestyle and a good record comes on I would definitely ask another girl to dance if no-one asked me up. I've not been refused yet............:wink:

Me too!
In fact, several ladies have told me that they like to dance with me as I dance & lead better than a lot of the men in the class. :wink:
I've said before about the one disadvantage I've found (and it's already been mentioned in this thread) about how some moves can be a bit more uncomfortable (both physically and in a socially "acceptable" way) when both ladies have large... errmm... "knees"!
Seriously, I actually enjoy the chance to dance as the Leader sometimes, and I enjoy the dance as a bit of a giggle & fun.

TheTramp
17th-January-2003, 02:24 PM
I often dance as a man in the class and some women are NOT comfortable with that although the majority seem not to mind.You think you have problems dancing as a man Sheena. You should have seen the response when I went round a class as a woman. You could see the guys 'counting ahead', and the dropping out if the count ended up with me. I gave up in the end, and went off and did the class on the side (with a nice young lady leading me).

Although, it's been commented at one dance recently, when I was dancing with DavidB, that I was one of the best 'women' in the room! :D

Steve

Lou
17th-January-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Although, it's been commented at one dance recently, when I was dancing with DavidB, that I was one of the best 'women' in the room! :D
I'd love to dance role reversal with you some time! I suspect it may well be more successful than when I danced with you as the lady! I was far too awe inspired by the talented ladies who had gone before me! :nice: (Although I'm nervous enough having to follow in the illustrious footsteps of DavidB!!!!)

DavidB
18th-January-2003, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Lou
Although I'm nervous enough having to follow in the illustrious footsteps of DavidB!!!! The only thing that comes close to me dancing with Steve is Sumo Wrestling...

TheTramp
18th-January-2003, 10:25 AM
So. Does this mean that next time we dance, we've got to do it in 'Nappies' then David? Some chalk on the hands first. That sort of thing!! :D

Steve

Heather
18th-January-2003, 11:03 AM
:D Can't wait to see that.........on second thoughts nah!!!!:wink:
:cheers:
Heather,
:kiss:

TheTramp
19th-January-2003, 05:22 PM
Yeah. You might actually have quite a long wait there :D

I can hear the sighs of relief all the way down here in Edinburgh now!

Steve

Dreadful Scathe
28th-January-2003, 04:33 PM
channel 4 could make an entire TV series on that alone :)

MartinHarper
22nd-November-2004, 04:31 PM
I continue to feel that "homophobic" is an unfortunate word, as it implies a degree of irrational fear, whereas in reality we are often talking about a lack of comfort, or an element of sexual discrimination.
In some absolute sense, I think the dance world would be a better place without that discomfort and discrimination. Still, you don't get there from here by being aggressive and judgemental about it.

Given the topic, I suppose I should sign...
-Lucy

Andy McGregor
22nd-November-2004, 04:57 PM
I continue to feel that "homophobic" is an unfortunate word, as it implies a degree of irrational fear, whereas in reality we are often talking about a lack of comfort, or an element of sexual discrimination.
In some absolute sense, I think the dance world would be a better place without that discomfort and discrimination. Still, you don't get there from here by being aggressive and judgemental about it.

I am afraid that "homophobic" exactly the right word for the attitude of some men to gay men. At some MJ events I've experienced quite a lot of irrational homophobic reactions and I'm not even gay.

And the reaction has never been irrational fear, more like irrational aggression or anger :tears:


-Lucy
:flower:

Gus
22nd-November-2004, 05:03 PM
I am afraid that "homophobic" exactly the right word for the attitude of some men to gay men. At some MJ events I've experienced quite a lot of irrational homophobic reactions and I'm not even gay.Think I tend to agree more with Martin than Andy on this. Although I've known a fair few gay guys and lasses I really dont like overly effeminate/camp behaviour and I'm not overly warm to two guys (or girls) snogging each others faces off. I dont see this as being agressive, just a personal reacton. If you term that homophobic ... then I'm not easy with that definition.

Daisy Chain
22nd-November-2004, 08:55 PM
....snogging each others faces off.

Call me fussy but I don't like to see any combination of men and women getting too intimate at a MJ night. It just doesn't seem right - like doing it in front of your parents :eek: I don't bat an eyelid at any sort of couple who are swapping bodily fluids in a night club. But I feel very uncomfortable if I see dancers examining their partners tonsils at Ceroc. Thankfully, it is a rare event and has never happened to me :really: ..............or do I not visit the right venues?

I'll get my coat

A Snoggophobic Daisy

Andy McGregor
23rd-November-2004, 05:04 PM
Think I tend to agree more with Martin than Andy on this. Although I've known a fair few gay guys and lasses I really dont like overly effeminate/camp behaviour and I'm not overly warm to two guys (or girls) snogging each others faces off. I dont see this as being agressive, just a personal reacton. If you term that homophobic ... then I'm not easy with that definition.

My evidence of irrational homophobia is that when I've danced with another guy there are a number of guys that have confronted me in an aggressive way and said, in a loud voice "you gay or something?". And, of course I had to endure a smear campaign on here which accused me of being gay. The problem I have is not people guessing my sexuality wrongly, it's the implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being gay :tears:

My answer to the "you gay or something?" question is usually "give me a kiss and I'll tell you". So far I've had no kisses ...

Dreadful Scathe
23rd-November-2004, 05:12 PM
My evidence of irrational homophobia is that when I've danced with another guy there are a number of guys that have confronted me in an aggressive way and said, in a loud voice "you gay or something?". And, of course I had to endure a smear campaign on here which accused me of being gay. The problem I have is not people guessing my sexuality wrongly, it's the implicit assumption that there is something wrong with being gay :tears:

My answer to the "you gay or something?" question is usually "give me a kiss and I'll tell you". So far I've had no kisses ...
If you're not Gay that makes you "something" which is better than nothing :) Its quite a compliment really, you've just misunderstood these people, deep inside them all theres a fluffy ballerina mewling to get out :)

Lindsay
23rd-November-2004, 09:17 PM
accused me of being gay. ???
But anyway..
Is homophobia (by definition) really a 'fear' of homosexuals? Like arachnophobia?? Doubt it, agree it's a dumb word.

David Chu
23rd-November-2004, 10:01 PM
The Gay issue rears its head again!

For the record, Boy george was a huge inspiration for me during a difficult period in my life and I have had the pleaure of meeting him twice.

Ok Dancers, I get it!......some of you are uncomfortable dancing with members of the same sex, thats fine...you can dance with who ever you like and for whatever reason. I do wonder why this topic comes up though and turns into a topic about fear.

As for Steve Trampie I hope he doesn't mind me saying that
thank god there are guys out there willing to dance with me. i've had some of he best dances here in the UK with Steve. Its all about brilliant dancing for me, end of story.
I know that when i dance with Steve, he challenges me with complex moves and gravity defying dips and lifts that quite frankly he knows a lots girls out there can't or won't do and he can get away with it with me. Anyway enough about Steve. There are other brilliant dancers up here in Scotland...I hope they don't mind me saying... James, John Lusby, Dave Hancock, Steve Gaylord, Franck and Charlie are inspiring and great mates to me...gayness has nothing to do with it or our dancing....There are many others who i have not had the pleasure of dancing with (mainly because the opportunity has not arisen) but have given me plenty of support and comradship.....it is interesting to see that the best are just that...the best...not only at dancing but how they live their lives and treat other people.

Honestly, it sounds to me like some of you, are going to get alot less dances with your offensive attitudes...but as some of you have said..you've nothing against the abnormal??????What the?????

I do not have a problem with gayness, I am gay (thats actually really boring nowadays) and whilst I don't profess to be a great dancer, I can hold my own against just about all of you. I don't care if you are transvestite, transexual, gay, straight, man or woman what ever....I'd be very happy to dance with you and make you feel comfortable....just like everyone else.

I'm more concerned if you are drunk, have bad breath, bad BO, or dance dangerously.

****Gus****
Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.
***********

I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion) and I'm not a trasvestite but i know that what you have written here for general public consumption is wrong.

Gus, i don't know you very well, but from what i hear, you are very well known and very well liked, so people obviously look up to you. Say something
great for a change and earn the respect that you already have instead of this thoughtless dribble.

I would like to tell you all that i would love to compete at Blackpool with another guy at Open level, unfortunately my brilliant dance partner in Australia, Anthony Douglas can't make it. If he could be there, we would compete and I bet we would do really well. We are already Champions from Ceroc Melbourne 2002, Le Bop 2002/2003. We also came second in the Caberet Section at Le Bop 2003...out of 10 couple from all over Australia.
Bent Bop (same sex couples) places 3rd at Le Bop 2003 in the caberet section. When i go back to Australia (and some of you by now are probably thinking...can't wait)... we intend to keep competing as long a same sex couples are allowed....Very pleased to see that M/M can compete at Chance2Dance.

I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.

Drumming up more dances for myself abit though, if you are one of the categories about please feel free to ask me for a dance....just be fabulous!

If you are going to dance...dance safely.

Cheers

David

Daisy Chain
23rd-November-2004, 10:48 PM
Drumming up more dances for myself abit though, if you are one of the categories about please feel free to ask me for a dance....just be fabulous!




Personally, I'm not bothered who dances with who in what combination at a MJ night - as long as both partners are happy about it.

Some men give me the heebie-jeebies and I can't wait for the track to end. Other men, I want to keep all night :drool: (*hastily* for dancing!) Most women are glorious to dance with but I've never yet fancied one of them :really:

I just want to dance with the best partners available..............men, women, whatever. I have even danced with a dog...

Daisy

(A Fabulous Little Flower)

PS May I have a dance?

Gojive
23rd-November-2004, 10:55 PM
I have even danced with a dog...

Me too!....boy was that a "ruff" experience! :really: :yum:

ToeTrampler
23rd-November-2004, 11:13 PM
I have even danced with a dog...

I've danced with a bitch :devil: :D

ChrisA
23rd-November-2004, 11:23 PM
I'd be very happy to dance with you and make you feel comfortable....just like everyone else.

I'm more concerned if you are drunk, have bad breath, bad BO, or dance dangerously.


......:yeah:

Totally agree. I'd be happy to dance with you. I wouldn't enjoy it as much as I would with an equally good female dancer, but that's just because I prefer the tactile feel of a woman to that of a guy.

Re Gus's comment, though, I think it warrants a little more of an in-depth look.



Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.



I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion) and I'm not a trasvestite but i know that what you have written here for general public consumption is wrong.

He might have put it a little clumsily (it's his trademark ;) ), but there's a point to be made here.

I dance with guys, sometimes, no probs - I don't care if they're gay or straight. I dance with girls all the time, and I expect I don't always know if they're gay or straight.

There was one time I danced with a guy pretending to be a woman (or so I assumed), though, and it was noteworthy because it did make me feel uncomfortable.

(S)he was dressed in a tight mini-dress, long wig, fake nails, lipstick... but had chunky bloke's legs, rough bloke's hands, bushy blokey eyebrows, square masculine face.

Now as I've said before, I've nothing against gay people of either sex. But I felt distinctly uncomfortable dancing in the class with this individual.

I didn't enjoy it, at some quite primal level. I think you have to concede that you can be unprejudiced, in the sense that "prejudice" is used these days, but still not enjoy dancing when there's an element of unwanted sexuality imposed on the encounter - for whatever reason. I think in this case there was a clear dissonance established by the conflicting male/female signals.

Now I certainly wouldn't suggest that heterosexual dance encounters are always Ok - far from it, as you'll know if you read what I write here quite often about pervs and groping - but I do think you have to be careful not to appear too politically correct, and invalidate people's legitimate feelings.

Please don't stop posting here, though, David - this forum needs the kind of insight and breadth you bring.

Chris

Gus
24th-November-2004, 12:58 AM
The Gay issue rears its head again!
I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.
I think it would be a real shame if you cessated your comments on this subject. IMHO this is an ongoing topic like drops / overcrowded dancefloors etc. The general dance public have a range of views on the subject and, maybe, a lack of understanding. Though it may be old news to you, there are a range of feelings about race, sexuality etc that need to be discussed in society (and that includes dance, to promote understanding. Though some of the comemnts may be somewhat direct (yup ... guilty :blush: ) I dont believe any have been said with the intention of causing offence.




****Gus****
Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.
***********

I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
[SNIP]Say something great for a change and earn the respect that you already have instead of this thoughtless dribble..
I'm sorry but I said what was my opinion .... dribble it may be but it was the best my lame brain could come up with. I'm not going to change what I believe just to be politicaly correct. At the same time I dont try to come out with the "... and some of my best friends are gay" line. My best mates brother is gay .... but till I have to think about it its not an issue. I've danced with a fair few blokes, some gay, some not ... its not something I'm massively into ... but then again I dont particuarly like dancing with RnR dancers much either. Isn't the whole thing a bit "each to their own" ... dance with whom ever you like dancing with? I think that the 'gay issue' to a large extent ISNT an issue on the dance circuit .... or is their evidence to the contrary?

MartinHarper
24th-November-2004, 01:51 AM
I don't see anything hideously wrong with Chris being uncomfortable dancing with the cross-dresser he mentions, though in an ideal world I'd prefer if that discomfort didn't exist. However, I'm glad he still had the dance, despite the discomfort. After all, Chris refuses dances with "perverts, yankers, and stinkers", and I don't believe that cross-dressing belongs in that group. :(

ChrisA
24th-November-2004, 11:12 AM
After all, Chris refuses dances with "perverts, yankers, and stinkers"
In the interests of strict accuracy, I encourage ladies not to feel obliged to to accept dances with guys who are perverts, yankers or stinkers.

It is so rare that I dance with ladies that grope inappropriately or that smell bad, it is simply a non-issue.

There are lots of yankers amongst the ranks of intermediate ladies, but as a guy I'm much more in control of what the dance consists of, and usually I'm quite a lot stronger than they are, so dancing with a woman that yanks isn't likely to do as much damage as can a guy that yanks.

I might turn down the offer of a second dance if I've been yanked about in the first one. :devil:

Chris

PS Appropriate groping... now that's another thing althogether... :devil:

Dreadful Scathe
24th-November-2004, 11:39 AM
Whatever way you dress it up (pun not intended), dancing with a transvestite is not 'normal'.




I think you are going a little too far here to be honest.
I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion) and I'm not a trasvestite but i know that what you have written here for general public consumption is wrong.

I think the reason Gus used quotes round 'normal' is because he was talking about perception, and I agree. Transvestites are not 'normal' because there are not many of them, even fewer at dancing. Saying that, a 'normal' night on the town for a lot of people seems to be get get totally drunk, throw up, snog a stranger and eat kebabs at the end of the night. With such definitions of what is 'normal' supplied by various people in society, why would anyone want to be 'normal' :). Appreciate the differences, but remember that everyone is 'normal' in at least some regards. Unless they're an anarchist or have a t-shirt that says 'must not conform' ...I would buy one of those ;).

Andy McGregor
24th-November-2004, 12:30 PM
I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.

Please don't leave the forum because of a few thoughtless postings. Of course there are a few people out there who don't like gays, there are also people who don't like old people, men, women, blacks, spiders, Brussel sprouts, etc. I'm sure spiders and Brussel sprouts learn to live with it! And I'm sure you've encountered that kind of bigotry from time to time and have coped perfectly well.

If you lived a bit nearer I'd suggest we entered the Open together. I've already come 3rd in the intermediate with another guy and 4th in the Old Gits with Sheepman and 4th in the double trouble with Steve Lampert and Rob Coward. And I'm a much better dancer now (possibly.. ).

Anyway, please keep popping into the forum - I'm sure people value your input.

Cheers.

Andy

p.s. Oops! I had meant to send this as a PM! :blush:

Minnie M
24th-November-2004, 12:40 PM
..............If you lived a bit nearer I'd suggest we entered the Open together. I've already come 3rd in the intermediate with another guy and 4th in the Old Gits with Sheepman and 4th in the double trouble with Steve Lampert and Rob Coward. And I'm a much better dancer now

Well there's an offer you can't dismiss David - I can vouch Andy is a great lead, has good musicality and is lots of fun, and he follows pretty good too :rolleyes:

Distance is only a little problem as we do have Bognor in a couple of months, and that would give plenty of time to practice

You mght have to fight for the follow though

Minnie M
24th-November-2004, 12:50 PM
BTW in Brighton we have a few gay MJ dancers (Male and Female) - most of the guys prefer to lead, but at times they switch, the women prefer to lead, but are quite happy to follow if asked. I am sure that most of the dance scene have no idea of their sexuality, and why should they - they are there to dance

I am a fat old and not pretty jewish woman, I think I have found more prejudice then my gay friends :tears: (even on the dance scene)

PS: Not feeling sorry for myself just stating facts

Monika
24th-November-2004, 01:20 PM
[QUOTE=David Chu]The Gay issue rears its head again!

"Ok Dancers, I get it!......some of you are uncomfortable dancing with members of the same sex, thats fine...you can dance with who ever you like and for whatever reason. I do wonder why this topic comes up though and turns into a topic about fear"
I don't care if you are transvestite, transexual, gay, straight, man or woman what ever....I'd be very happy to dance with you and make you feel comfortable....just like everyone else.
I'm more concerned if you are drunk, have bad breath, bad BO, or dance dangerously."

David
Thank's for sharing your thoughts about this subject. I'm not sure where to start other than by saying that I do disagree with your comment that you don't profess to be a great dancer as in my opinion you most definitely should: You are a great dancer and a real inspiration! Fabolous to watch and learn from - whether you dance as a follower or lead a dance-partner - male or female. I feel the topic is a bit unfair and should be generalised more: A few dancers may well be unconfortable with dancing with gay men, but I have also heard a few narrow minded people mention that they would rather not dance with someone a lot younger than them - or older - or someone from a different country - or someone they don't like the dress-sense of etc etc. I think you are spot on when you mention fear - as some people fear anything they feel or perceive is different. After all we are talking about dancing and it should be just dancing and fun. It doesn't matter how old you are - what size you are or where you are from etc etc. I've had lot's of great dances with male and female leaders (as not yet able to lead myself) and I am delighted to find that some girls still ask me to dance and I have also asked girls to dance when I want a dance. Never occured to me to worry what people would think about me dancing with other women and it shouldn't matter. The dancers who restrict themselves to certain limitations to who they would dance with are the ones missing out. Saying that I do agree that you must be careful before accepting to dance with someone you know are likely to injure you (based on experience and ignorance of requests not to do any lifts or drops etc) or maybe have had a few drinks too many due to the risk of getting hurt. Injury can take only a few seconds to happen, but a lifetime to endure (having missed out months of dancing after a injury I know I will be more careful in future).
I - for one - will be devastated when (if???any chance you will change your mind??) you decide to leave UK as I think you truly are a fantastic person and certainly one of the best and most inspirational dancers in Scotland at the moment. I admire your dancing and I'm proud to know you and call you a friend. It is hard not to get personally involved when some comments may appear hurtful towards a friend, but also believe it is good that we can share thoughts and views on various topics without attacking anyone personally for who they are and I don't think that is the case here - comments observed and experienced are unfortunately a negative behaviour to something "trivial" as being a bit "different" - being foreign I sometimes experience negative comments about behaving slightly different than the "norm" - but luckily not a big problem and it really doesn't matter. I know who my friends are and wouldn't give up dancing based on some peoples different views as I'm enjoying it too much and I'll be the one missing out. I know you won't ever think of giving up dancing, but just be strong and be who you are: We who know you care for you for who you are.
Good luck in finding a dance-partner for Blackpool.
Happy dancing
Mon x :hug:

Andy McGregor
24th-November-2004, 01:26 PM
You mght have to fight for the follow though

Sorry :blush: I must admit I find it easier to follow people who are taller than me. MinnieM is only 4" tall (although I'm not much taller) and I keep tripping over her tail :wink:

baldrick
24th-November-2004, 01:49 PM
I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.

Drumming up more dances for myself abit though, if you are one of the categories about please feel free to ask me for a dance....just be fabulous!

David
Don't leave us David, the more and broarder the veiws and experiances on the forum the better.
You have more of an effect than you know. I will become a good follow, eventually. Watching you convinced me it would be possible.
And we'll get a dance, something I have missed so far. Not this week I'm afriad, my van hit the self distruct button so getting to Perth or beyond is a non starter. :mad:

Lory
24th-November-2004, 02:01 PM
I think it would be a real shame if you cessated your comments on this subject. IMHO this is an ongoing topic like drops / overcrowded dancefloors etc. The general dance public have a range of views on the subject and, maybe, a lack of understanding. Though it may be old news to you, there are a range of feelings about race, sexuality etc that need to be discussed in society (and that includes dance, to promote understanding.
:yeah: David, I think it's a real shame that you've taken offence the this subject being raised again. IMO having open and frank discussions where people can express their points of view, hang ups and inherent prejudices is the only way forward.

You never know, there maybe men or women who have read this thread, who have been educated, who will now feel more relaxed about dancing with the 'same sex'

Hearing that other well respected men in the MJ community dance with other men and find it totally acceptable, even really enjoyable and that no one judges them negatively may encourage other to loose their hang-ups about it. :clap:

I'm afraid there's a lot of weak characters, that rely on other more dominant people to validate their actions. They may feel fine with the idea of dancing 'same sex' but don't have the confidence to either ask or accept, for fear they may be frowned upon or judged negatively! :(

So if you get a few 'names' saying, Hey, of course its OK! :cheers: I'm really cool with it! :waycool: What's the problem? :confused: I think this paves the way for more acceptance generally! :grin:

Dreadful Scathe
24th-November-2004, 02:21 PM
I am a fat old and not pretty jewish woman


Really ? Ive met you and I cant identify with those terms - try - exhuberant, friendly, fun, happy. morish* and fantastic.....you're right with the 'woman' bit though :)



* as in 'we want some more minnie mouse' ;)

Gadget
24th-November-2004, 03:28 PM
> I do wonder why this topic comes up though and turns into a topic about fear.
:) the topic turned to "fear" because it drifted into discussing what the term "homophobic" meant - a phobia being an irrational fear; note the "irrational" bit. I thought that the discussion was actually a positive thing for the dancing community: it seemed to be leading towards dismissing the term "homophobic" because there was no real 'fear' to be felt.
{edit: after reading Monica's excellent post - I agree, there are phobias and prejudices (and not just towards gay folk) but in my opinion they are a lot less in the dance community than in the world at large.}

Some people give you the creeps. They don't have to be pervs, stinkers, yankers... most of the time, those that do give you the 'creeps' are those who are pretending to be one thing, but you sense that they are actually something else. People who say one thing, but you see another in their eyes. Act one way towards you, but another when you are not watching...
Some transsexuals and 'creepy' people fall into this category - a thin veneer of one thing over a completely different inner self.
I think that this is what Gus was referring to and why it creeps him out - not really the fact that it's a transsexual, but the fact that it's someone pretending to be someone else. They are wearing a facade constructed from their own perceptions of what they should be; trying to project a false image over the reality.

>I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion)
You may not be camp, but there is a grace to your actions that is normally only seen in females. You do not pretend to be anything other than what you are. There is no pretence or forced 'acting'. I think that more people would be "comfortable" around you than (for example) Andy dressing up and camping it up....{:devil: OK, perhaps a bad example, but you know what I mean.:devil:}

>I'm now really fed up with this topic and I feel really agitated to the point that
>I think maybe its best to disassociate myself from the Forum.
:flower: awwww, you don't really mean that do you? There are only a few dancers that I notice on the dance floor when I am dancing (other than the obvious floorcraft) - Tramp, Lisa, Sal, Bill, Scooby, JohnL, Gaylord, Sheena, and a handful of others {I had to pick those that I remembered the names of :blush:} I consider yourself to be among them; a 'presence' on the dance floor.

{BTW If I can find you off the dance floor in a time that I'm off the dance floor, then I will definitely be asking for a dance... you'll have to follow; I'm rubbish at it.}

Minnie M
24th-November-2004, 03:38 PM
......... morish* ...........
* as in 'we want some more minnie mouse' ;)

Whenever I think of the word morish, I think of food - yep I liked that word ....

Thanks DS l wasn't fishing for comps, however, I still love them :blush:

I do suffer prejudice from chaps who only want to dance with either slim, young, or pretty things - preferably all three. It does hurt sometimes but you get over it.

Please don't leave us David, you have written some of the best posts and if you leave the forum we may never get the chance to meet - we ALL love you and we ALL want to dance with you - and you have got to dance with Sparkles - she is the bestest lead ever :worthy:

drathzel
24th-November-2004, 03:38 PM
>
{BTW If I can find you off the dance floor in a time that I'm off the dance floor, then I will definitely be asking for a dance... you'll have to follow; I'm rubbish at it.}

This i can vouch for!!!

Anyway, I dont care who i dance with, not that doesn't sound right! I do care, i care about every dance i get and i hope to make it enjoyable for others!!! What i don't care about is the label that people put on them. I will dance with someone either because they ask me or because i want to and ask them! I hate to be labeled so i treat everyone the way i want to be treated!

I danced with david once, i had only been dancing 3 weeks and mucked it up so much that i have never asked for another one!! Maybe next time though!

:hug:

stewart38
24th-November-2004, 04:10 PM
>

>I might be gay but I'm not camp (in my opinion)
You may not be camp, but there is a grace to your actions that is normally only seen in females. You do not pretend to be anything other than what you are. There is no pretence or forced 'acting'. I think that more people would be "comfortable" around you than (for example) Andy dressing up and camping it up....{:devil: OK, perhaps a bad example, but you know what I mean.:devil:}



I saw some fantasic 'man with man' dancing at Camber and its changed my opinion. I saw 'dancing'. Some 'camp' performances in the past made me feel rightly or wrongly 'edgy'.

MartinHarper
24th-November-2004, 04:34 PM
[Some transsexuals] are wearing a facade constructed from their own perceptions of what they should be; trying to project a false image over the reality.

I suspect pretty much any pre-op transsexual will tell you that the reality is the way they are inside, and the facade is the body they're stuck in, rather than the other way round.

Sheepman
24th-November-2004, 05:15 PM
Call me fussy but I don't like to see any combination of men and women getting too intimate at a MJ night. It just doesn't seem right - like doing it in front of your parents :eek: I can't really explain why, but I feel this way too. I'm sure it's not because I'm jealous they might be having more fun than me, 'cos I don't think they are :blush: And it doesn't mean to say I haven't been tempted to do the same, it just doesn't seem right. A few months ago I noticed a couple were undressing each other on the dance floor, and it really did just seem totally inappropriate, but where is the borderline, especially when it comes to a late night blues session ... ?

Greg

Andy McGregor
24th-November-2004, 07:49 PM
I saw some fantasic 'man with man' dancing at Camber and its changed my opinion. I saw 'dancing'. Some 'camp' performances in the past made me feel rightly or wrongly 'edgy'.

I think it depends on the circumstances, the music, your partner, your costume, etc. I had a few dances with guys at Camber, I can't remember doing anything but dancing the same was as I usually do ...

.. which would have been dead camp irrespective of the sex of my partner or me leading or following if they were playing Y.M.C.A., Go West, I Am What I Am or any other gay anthem :waycool:

But if they were playing some nice swingy number or something like Toxic I'd have played it dead straight - I think it's called 'musicality' :wink:

Dan Hudson
24th-November-2004, 11:45 PM
I think it depends on the circumstances, the music, your partner, your costume, etc. I had a few dances with guys at Camber, I can't remember doing anything but dancing the same was as I usually do ...



I can confirm you were a complete slapper andy :devil: :rofl:

Had a fabulous dance with Andy this year at Camber and Trampy last year.. I couldn't give a toss if the dance is with a guy or a girl as long as we both enjoy it! :cheers:

David Chu
25th-November-2004, 09:26 PM
Hi Dancers,

Thank you for the replies to this thread, I just hope that maybe, we can be abit kinder to people that may make us feel abit uncomfortable. Hey, I feel uncomfotable around footballers....it doesn't mean i wouldn't dance with one though...hee hee.

Regardless of who we normally dance with, when you dance with someone new, isn't it always abit awkward. I'm not very tall so i shy away from tall girls because I'm frightened i might bang them in the nose or worse. I shy away from the "top" dancers cause I just don't think i cut it. I guess if I was dancing with a tall "top" transexual dancer I too would feel uncomfortable!

Anyway,

What can I say, I'm a dancaholic, lead of follow, I'm not happy unless I'm doing both. I would go insane if I couldn't follow.

Hey, Minnie M, I've not met you but I hope i get to dance with you one day.
When I do, I'll give you my all and make you feel like a real woman! cheers!

The Brighton MJ class sounds interesting, I'd love to come down some time for a class.

Gus, I'd gladly have a dance with you sometime, just for fun and i promise not to wear my heels, I'll leave my wig at home...I won't even wear a kilt ok. :wink:

I'm hardly ever off the dance floor really but do ask me for a dance whether you are male, female, straight, gay, transvestite, transexual, transatlantic, transferable, transplanted, transcontinental, transalpine, transported, transposed or bisexual, biannual, bicycle, biplane, biorythmic,
bi one get one free!!! :clap:

Bi!

XXXX

David

Minnie M
25th-November-2004, 09:35 PM
........Hey, Minnie M, I've not met you but I hope i get to dance with you one day. When I do, I'll give you my all and make you feel like a real woman! cheers!
........

:clap: :cheers: :hug: :kiss: :yeah:

ChrisA
25th-November-2004, 11:49 PM
Bi!

It's reading posts like this that make me wish sometimes that I was :devil: :cheers:

Andy McGregor
26th-November-2004, 02:01 AM
It's reading posts like this that make me wish sometimes that I was :devil: :cheers:

Curioser and curioser :wink:

John S
26th-November-2004, 12:04 PM
I think this thread has sometimes got a bit mixed up between its title "Attitudes to gay men" and the question of 2 guys dancing together (funny how the question of 2 girls dancing together doesn't provoke the same reactions, although I gather some ladies feel short-changed in the classes if they find on going round that they have a Female lead).

I'm not having a go at anyone for getting mixed up, it's a subject that has so much baggage attached it's sometimes difficult to think clearly about it. (Perhaps a good reason for not giving it any thought at all and just getting on with the dancing!)

What is sad is if anyone reading some of the messages should feel embarrassed, threatened or in any way belittled, either because of their sexuality or because of their preferences for dance partners of one sex or another. David has been honest enough to state how he felt but I guess there are others who have felt safer just keeping quiet. Whatever our personal thoughts (and I know we have a right to express them), along with that right is a responsibility to respect the feelings of others.

Because of our cultural background (reinforced by the fact that men are generally outnumbered by women at MJ venues) it is uncommon to see 2 men dancing together, and it is usually only the better male dancers who are confident enough to try it - but when they do, then Wow!!! One of the best bits of the Beach Ballroom at the weekend was David's dance with Charlie, (David, please don't leave the Forum or the Scottish dance scene!!!) and the absolute dance highlight that I remember was a few years ago at a Christmas party in Edinburgh, when Franck and Obi really went for it and danced up and down the floor like 2 wild bulls, alternating the lead and follow - it was extremely powerful and very masculine - testosterone levels were off the scale!

Perhaps we'll only know we've arrived at a place of tolerance when we can dance with anyone of either sex, without assuming it's a preliminary to a sexual encounter. (And that doesn't mean it has to be bland or anodyne, there's nothing to stop anyone hamming it up and acting out the role he/she is in.) Heaven knows, if every woman I have danced with took from my dance style that I was desperate to go to bed with her I would either get whacked around the ears or would never get any sleep!

Maybe we should start by the basic teaching being done using the terms "Leader & Follower" instead of "Man and Lady"? Or is that too radical?

Oh, and before anyone points it out, I know I've gone off-topic as well and mixed up attitudes to gay men with M/M dancing! Oh well, in the words of the bestest-ever cross-dressing movie, "Some Like it Hot";
Jerry: You don't understand, Osgood! Aaah... I'm a man!
Osgood: Well, nobody's perfect.

drathzel
26th-November-2004, 03:05 PM
I think this thread has sometimes got a bit mixed up between its title "Attitudes to gay men" and the question of 2 guys dancing together (funny how the question of 2 girls dancing together doesn't provoke the same reactions, although I gather some ladies feel short-changed in the classes if they find on going round that they have a Female lead).



:yeah:

I danced for the first time as a man this week in both the tues and wed night classes and i got the feeling that when the women came up to me they were dissapointed, ok it was my first classes as a man, but as i woman i know what its like to be led to hard or to soft or stirred!

I think that this is stupid as one of the best leader i have danced with in class and the most helpful was jane(taxi tues night)! I learnt a lot from her and i dont think that i am helpful yet but i feel a lot of women could be and a lot of women could be helped as much as i was!!! My piece of advice!!! Dance with other women not matter how you see it or feel!!!

:hug:

Martin
26th-November-2004, 07:14 PM
Ok Dancers, I get it!......some of you are uncomfortable dancing with members of the same sex, thats fine...you can dance with who ever you like and for whatever reason.

I was reading this topic and was getting ready to post a funny reply, as I read down the topic I was wondering if you would post ( as I know you read the forum )

My attitudes generally to gay men, do your thing and I will do my thing.

In a class situation I think the general population comes along to dance with someone of the opposite sex, so let's respect that.
Girls as well, many girls come along to dance with guys, so in class, let's not freak people out.

Many many years ago I used to dance with Nigel (pre Nina days), we often got a good crowd watching as we did the bump and grind, + dips and twists.
This was of course for the fun element.

On my trip earlier this year to the UK I had the pleasure of meeting up with you and actively asked you if you would like to dance as a follower, it was so much fun, and you are awesome.

If you visit Sydney I would happily partner you.

I am 100% straight as you know, and you met my wonderful girlfriend Janet.

I do have a slight problem with one transvestite on the Aussie circuit, mainly because of the fact that the category of choice is Advanced for comps, but clearly as a follower this person is lower intermediate, it could be that, dancing under another persona the level of advanced was reached.
In Lucky dip (or, as we call it, dance with a stranger) this causes a challenge as we seperate beginner, intermediate and advanced.
It is also a bit off putting that the person is far taller than most leaders.

I do not think anyone is attempting to target you personally on this thread, I am glad you posted.

I am happy to dance with guys in a freestyle fun environment, as I know you and respect you, happy to do a serious comp with you.

Me being built like a brick out-house and a teacher of lifts, and you being a fantastic follower in both lifts and general dance....
We would "rock" :cheers:

David Chu
27th-November-2004, 12:45 PM
Hi Martin

To be honest i was pretty livid at the time I read the thread and it took me ages to write the response but I do understand peoples fears and insecurities regrading gay issues and the other extreme..transvestitism. I've met alot of transvestites in my time and alot of gays and like every other realm in society there are good ones and bad ones.

Martin, we did spend some really good time together with Janet and Linda and i think you know the real me and i think thats the trick here. Once you get to know a person, you either like them or you don't. You build up trust and respect and thats where i think I am now in Modern Jive.

I know that modern jive dancing is pretty much hetro, so I entered that the dance world coming in under the radar and now I've built up my little network to a point where I have fabulous girls to dance with and show off with and do stuff that alot of other guys wouldn't get away with because of comfort zones. I have brilliant male dancers to dance with because they trust me and generally, lets face it, guys will do anything to be the centre of attention and when two guys dance together, well it goes hand in hand.

I'll see you again next year in OZ sometime, so we can have a dance then but i warn you, I might look like I'm lightweight but like that boulder in the back yard that you thought looked easy to lift but ends up slipping your discs!

Hey Andy Mcgregor, I will search you out at Blackpool if you are going and we can have a dance then, thank you for your offer.

To Drathzel, I'm trying to put the name to your face but can't recall any girls with daisy halos of late, please seek me out next time for a dance and say...please, please don't eat the daisies...and I'll know its you!

Dear John from deepest darkest Kingdom of Fife, my dance with Charlie was a highlight of the my evening too, I was very shocked with his risque moves. It was an excerpt from our forthcoming dance musical extravaganza called Dirty Flash Saturday Night Fame. Coming to a local dance hall near you.

Semicircle stepping back....

XXXX
David

Andy McGregor
27th-November-2004, 01:12 PM
Hey Andy Mcgregor, I will search you out at Blackpool if you are going and we can have a dance then, thank you for your offer.

I'll look forward to it :flower: