Back to Basics?

[Gus]

Been reading a few posts by Wendy and Alex re doing workshops that actualy improve your MJ. I think the point has oft been made that what most people need is NOT more moves or a fusion of WCS/hip-hop/balroom, but to get their basics right. Having gone back to doing normal MJ classes I've been forcibly reminded of a lack of musical awareness, failure to follow the beat, lead/follow difficulties and lack of simple style (in myslef as well as those I've been dancing with). This is no fault of anyone, just a by product of a teaching method that gets lots of 'non-dancerss' dancing in a short space of time.

The answer we came up with at Cool Catz was a 'Back to Basics' approach ... and a workshop derived from that went down really well in NZ with lower-intermediate dnacers. The point is, its probably the more advanced dnacers who could also benefit from such (IMHO). The point is, I'm not sure if I'm right. I also think that other tand running such workshops a revision workshop for the inetremdiates could really be usefull ... going over the more technical aspects of the lesson just been taught, though I recognise that that would put a real strain on the teachers (subject of another thread :wink: ).

Hence the poll. Good idea/Bad idea?

[Piglet]

As a lover of ceroc and its workshops I think they are a brilliant idea!

However, as a numpty! (my words) I have found that I needed private lessons where the comments were made directly about my dancing (thanks hugely to Trampy :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: and also to Jive Brummie :worthy: and Filthycute :worthy: [ who also tried their best with me ] in order for me to finally hear what I've been being told all along through classes and workshops. Maybe I did hear what they were saying, but didn't realise they were talking to me? :rofl:

I am definitely more aware of teachers' tips and advice due to my private lessons and got heaps out of my last intermediate workshop due to this!

I'm just away to do a Beginners' Workshop again - however, this will be my first one leading. Can't wait!!!!

[Wendy]

You edited and still had loads of typos !!!! :rofl: awww... :hug:

I can only agree that this is a good idea !!! In fact, maybe if those in charge of CEROC read this (DO they ever read this stuff ??? do they even dance ????) they'd reconsider the Intermediate class format.... (Of course now that I've left that will probably happen :sick: but :D ) If the Intermediate class had one or two of these elements included on a regular basis it would naturally become part of the culture. ie do one (or more!) of the moves covered in the beginners class and introduce lead/follow or style points or change of speed etc.

Wxxx

[Gus]

You edited and still had loads of typos !!!! :rofl: awww... :hug:Confucious he say "Man who creates post well past his bedtime and after several beers is going to make mistakes" :( .

[El Salsero Gringo]

I wait with baited to breath to find out what a dnacer is, myslef.

[TiggsTours]

You edited and still had loads of typos !!!! :rofl: awww... :hug:

I can only agree that this is a good idea !!! In fact, maybe if those in charge of CEROC read this (DO they ever read this stuff ??? do they even dance ????) they'd reconsider the Intermediate class format.... (Of course now that I've left that will probably happen :sick: but :D ) If the Intermediate class had one or two of these elements included on a regular basis it would naturally become part of the culture. ie do one (or more!) of the moves covered in the beginners class and introduce lead/follow or style points or change of speed etc.

Wxxx
Those in charge on Ceroc do indeed dance, alot! and always support and attend Ceroc venues, and are often busy working on new possibilities in foreign fields. They are very well known in the world of professional dance, especially in the Latin field, and always "fly the flag" of Ceroc. They often attend classes, and if you were to sit down and talk to them, you'd find they are fully aware of the format of Ceroc. The main 2 in charge of Ceroc, Mike & Linda, are ex-Ceroc teachers, and still do teach from time to time, and are very aware of the format. When they took over Ceroc, about 3 years ago now I think, Ceroc was really going down the pan, it was not popular with other dance companies, many of its teachers were leaving and setting up on their own, and they were laughed at in other dancing circles, they have done a power of good for Ceroc, and made many positive changes over the past few years, but primarily they have been working on its image first, and very successfully! But you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. As for reading this forum, I have no idea, but I know that at least one of them (seeing as I live with him) is always happy to listen to what anyone thinks.

[Rhythm King]

~snip~ The main 2 in charge of Ceroc, Mike & Linda, ~snip~(seeing as I live with him) .

:eek: Does Linda know this? :devil:

[TiggsTours]

:eek: Does Linda know this? :devil:
Mike & Linda are not the only owners of Ceroc, contrary to popular belief.

[Almost an Angel]

Confucious he say "Man who creates post well past his bedtime and after several beers is going to make mistakes" :( .

Only several beers !!!!!! :cheers: :rofl:

Ok normally don't get drawn into these discussions but this is an area I feel pretty strongly about. I'm always looking at ways to improve my MJ (I freely admit to trying other styles etc) IMHO what it nearly always comes down to is having made sure that the basics are well and truely ingrained in a dancer and making sure they are ready to move to the next level. However whatever the dancers level you can always benefit from going 'back to basics'. The time my MJ improved the most was when I was teaching an 'improvers' class (I think it's the same sort of thing as cool catz) aimed at low intermediates, giving them the time to practice the basics and actually learn to lead, listen to the music etc... The reason being I had to constently think about what we were teaching, and what lesson /theory we were trying to get across. The same is true now, I'm always trying to ensure the basics are covered.

I'm afraid I have to agree that in some places it just isn't taught and there are dancers who however many moves they know can't find the beat, or have no concept of lead or follow. I agree with Wnedy, maybe Ceroc should try and incorporate some of these into the intermediate class, as they have with the whatever it is they do now at the start of the beginners class. (sorry brain is being a sieve today and can't think of what they call it!!)

[Mostlysane]

oo oo - first post :grin:

I think a back to basics approach is a great idea. But why wait for workshops etc. You can do a similar thing in the beginners lesson and help the newer dances at the same time.

I was recently reminded of that by a dance teacher and it's so true. Doing a basket for the nth time, rather than just go through the motions - look at your own technique. And maybe try some variations. Ok, some may not work, but i'm finding it a great chance to look at varying footwork etc.

[tsh]

Hi Mostly... You found us at last!

I think the benefit of advertising a 'back to basics' class is that it reminds the majority that they need to work on the basics - and some of these are things which are probably too difficult to teach directly to beginners.

The best idea is probably to advertise it as an 'advanced teqhnique' class, they it will attract the people who need it most...

Sean

[doc martin]

I wait with baited to breath to find out what a dnacer is, myslef.

It is a person with natural rhythm in their genes. There you go, you can breathe again.

I am not really sure what back to basics is. If it what I was taught in the beginners classes, that is just how to do the basic moves. If you mean the basics of dancing, I am all for that.

I have been dancing nearly a year and I read here about floorcraft, framing, musicality and other aspects of dancing which are probably applicable to all dance styles. I have not so far been explicitly taught any of these and I know that, for me to progress as a dancer, I need to know about them.

Perhaps these things are taught in the intermediate workshops or maybe the style workshops, but in the three months that I have been doing Ceroc, I have not had a chance to attend any of these. If there are no current workshops covering these aspects of dance, I would be all in favour of some being run and would make every effort to attend.

For preference though I would rather these things were taught in the classes, either instead of teaching moves in the intermediate class or as a separate class whilst the beginners class is in progress (incidentally, is the separate class still happening at Perth on a Thursday?).

Even after this short a time I am pretty happy with the number and range of moves at my disposal in the social dancing, but I am becoming more and more aware that I am missing *something* and, outside of private lessons, I am not sure where to go to find out what is missing in my dancing and how to find it.

[drathzel]

I think everyone would benefit from a back to basics, was speaking to a fellow taxi the other night and we were discussing that once you lose the beginners to the intermediate class, you really have no hope in ironing out the bad habits that you have tried so desperately to work on in beginner. Beginner have a lto to think about so you can forgive them for this, once they get to intermediate, they concentrate on learning new harder move, and this is why you still get intermediates trying to do the arm jive at your shoulders!

I think a back to basics class you be fab and i for one would attend! :hug:

[MartinHarper]

oo oo - first post :grin:

Congrats!

One thing that might make teaching MJ basics difficult is the disagreement over what they are. For example: what is basic MJ footwork? Is the basic form of MJ slotted or unslotted?

[Mostlysane]

Congrats!

One thing that might make teaching MJ basics difficult is the disagreement over what they are. For example: what is basic MJ footwork? Is the basic form of MJ slotted or unslotted?

Very true, though i did notice that one of the places i dance has even mentioned the slot word now, in one of it's beginners lessons. Only once, but it was there.

I find that a lot of the lessons are almost slot by default just because there's so many people in a class. You end up shoulder to shoulder with the others.

It's only when it's freestyle time that people start going round in circles.

[clevedonboy]

Confucius he say "Man who creates post well past his bedtime and after several beers is going to make mistakes" :( .

did you know that you can check your spelling with the Google toolbar?

[jivecat]

I think everyone would benefit from a back to basics, was speaking to a fellow taxi the other night and we were discussing that once you lose the beginners to the intermediate class, you really have no hope in ironing out the bad habits that you have tried so desperately to work on in beginner............. I think a back to basics class you be fab and i for one would attend! :hug:

:yeah:

I don't think a "Back to basics" class would do much to iron out ingrained bad habits unless the classes were very small and the teachers were committed to giving quality personal feedback to each participant. The participants would also have to accept what they were hearing and be willing to work hard to correct the bad habits. Sounds like a fun way to spend your free time? :rolleyes:

[MartinHarper]

In Lindy, "basics" and "fundamentals" classes and workshops are common. They're good at fixing common bad habits, I think - the instructor will typically look for the most common faults, and try to get folks to really concentrate on avoiding those problems, and it does feel like it works. One technique I always enjoy is when the instructor reproduces our faults, in a slightly exaggerated fashion (well, I hope it's exaggerated!). I find that kind of "how not to dance" advice very useful.

On the other hand, such classes are less good for sorting me out if I have unique bad habits that nobody else has - there's normally some space for individual feedback (recent help has included: "some women are taller than others" and "waist height is above knee height"), but inevitably not much.

[Gus]

I don't think a "Back to basics" class would do much to iron out ingrained bad habits unless the classes were very small and the teachers were committed to giving quality personal feedback to each participant. The participants would also have to accept what they were hearing and be willing to work hard to correct the bad habits. Sounds like a fun way to spend your free time? :rolleyes:We ran the concept as 'Cool Catz' for few months and the progress was clear to see. On the workshop I ran in NZ it took 1 hour to see some progress .... it was then up to the students to work on it themsleves or grab instructors to take it forward. It worked with a class of about 20 students ... whicc is about as many as you want. From what I've heard the 'advanced classes' run by Kelly at Greenwich have sometimes had a similar thrust and been very well received.

I keep on thinking about running a one off class as a freebie at Kent House but its just getting the time and wondering if anyone would actualy bother to turn up :(

[KatieR]

I keep on thinking about running a one off class as a freebie at Kent House but its just getting the time and wondering if anyone would actualy bother to turn up :(

IMHO I think that everyone could benefit in some way from a back to basics workshop. I think that you would be pleasantly surprised at the turnout. :)

[Icey]

I keep on thinking about running a one off class as a freebie at Kent House but its just getting the time and wondering if anyone would actualy bother to turn up :(

I would! I'm still a beginner, but would certainly welcome the oppotunity to identify and stop any bad habits I have got.

[ChrisA]

The only person I've ever seen teach beginners MJ in a way that would stand any chance at all of:

- starting to cure bad habits
- enabling them to learn anything about lead and follow
- learn dance rather than learn moves...

... is Amir, who proved that he can teach basics just as well as he can teach everything else, ie superbly.

There may be others that can do it... what did you cover in the ones you ran, Gus?

[Zuhal]

The Teacher at my Salsa venue spent the first 10 mins teaching a very basic 4 move sequence that was within everyones capability. Then he herded us into a corner of the dance floor and taught floorcraft. We were no longer in lines.

Through a series of practical examples he made everyone aware of
Dancing Small
Slot dancing where appropriate
Looking for space
Being aware of your own and partners elbows
How to protect your partner from a space hog (or a Miss Piggy on speed)

It was a great 40 mins

Zuhal

[Lee]

Referring to the title 'back to basics'

I don't want to appear picky, but if we (Ceroc) all started calling them 'base' moves would we find that all the new dancers would not be so keen to move into the intermediate class as quickly as possible and would spend more time working on these 20 base moves. This might even allow them to actually listening to the music while they dance, focusing only on these moves before moving into the next level thus increasing their musicallity.

Which raises another question, should Taxi Dancers be responsible for 'allowing' new dancers into the intermediate classes?

Lee
I'm blonde, what's your excuse?
Copyright ‘LMC’

[Gus]

There may be others that can do it... what did you cover in the ones you ran, Gus?Trying to remember .... something like;

lead and follow
tension and compression
mini styling points (footwork and arms)
eye contact and attitude
half speed and double speed accents
keeping to a beat
controlling a difficult partner ( :innocent:

Tended to vary according to the standard of the class and the desired learning areas. Can't say it always worked but it was a learning experience for both me and the class.

[ChrisA]

Trying to remember .... something like;

lead and follow
tension and compression
mini styling points (footwork and arms)
eye contact and attitude
half speed and double speed accents
keeping to a beat
controlling a difficult partner ( :innocent:

Tended to vary according to the standard of the class and the desired learning areas. Can't say it always worked but it was a learning experience for both me and the class.
Nice topics.

I think the key to it would be in identifying those people that wanted to learn to dance - rather than enjoy the aerobic exercise, learn moves, pull, and socialise as priorities.

Tricky though. :)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Nice topics.

I think the key to it would be in identifying those people that wanted to learn to dance - rather than enjoy the aerobic exercise, learn moves, pull, and socialise as priorities.

Tricky though. :)You could make attendance compulsory for anyone identified by the Dance Police as requiring remedial action, as an alternative to having their dance licenses endorsed (first offenders only, naturally.)

Or you could offer discounts at freestyles to anyone who had completed the course.

[ChrisA]

You could make attendance compulsory for anyone identified by the Dance Police as requiring remedial action, as an alternative to having their dance licenses endorsed (first offenders only, naturally.)

Or you could offer discounts at freestyles to anyone who had completed the course.
You seem to be taking over as chief exponent of the "make a fatuous reply wherever possible" philosophy.

But my point was a serious one. There is only any point in running a class that teaches anything about the finer elements of partner dancing if there are enough people that would be interested in it.

As soon as you take away the appeal of a dance form that has no footwork, can be picked up by anyone in one lesson, and instead requires people to actually think about what they do and don't do, and work on things that are difficult, etc, you will put off the people that want things that aren't directly connected with that.

Like, as I say, aerobics, socialising, pulling etc. I have nothing against these things, nor even anything against people that do MJ as a vehicle for them.

But this "back to basics" thing that Gus is proposing isn't anything of the sort. It might be "basics", but it's not "back to" them. For the most part, the people that go on such a workshop won't have been exposed to any of the things on his list if they're fairly new dancers, and if they're not new dancers, they'll only be interested in those things if they want to learn to dance and are aware of the fact that these things are usually neglected.

Sorry, I hadn't realised that even wanting to learn to dance is tarred with the "elitist, and therefore to be shunned" brush these days.

[MartinHarper]

I think a lot of it is down to promotion. If teachers (and taxis, etc) talk a lot about fundamentals, and their benefits, then you'll get more interest from the huddled masses. If they talk about fundamentals as a specialised area, only of interest to future world champions and lifetime dance addicts, I'm not so sure.

When I learn Lindy fundamentals, I'm clear on how they will help my dancing, in concrete ways. The same level of clarity isn't present, for me, in MJ - I assume they'd be useful, but the exact benefits seem more nebulous. What changes could an intermediate MJ dancer expect to see in their dancing after doing a class (or ten) in MJ basics?

[El Salsero Gringo]

You seem to be taking over as chief exponent of the "make a fatuous reply wherever possible" philosophy.Naaawwww, I was just being silly. That's not a crime, yet.
But my point was a serious one.
.
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{snip lots of worthy stuff}
.
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Sorry, I hadn't realised that even wanting to learn to dance is tarred with the "elitist, and therefore to be shunned" brush these days.Who said anything about elitist? I applaud and support the initiative. Yessir.

[Clive Long]

The Teacher at my Salsa venue spent the first 10 mins teaching a very basic 4 move sequence that was within everyones capability. Then he herded us into a corner of the dance floor and taught floorcraft. We were no longer in lines.

Through a series of practical examples he made everyone aware of
<< examples >>
It was a great 40 mins

Zuhal
What a great idea.

OK, we have talked a lot about this. Who wants to teach this , who wants to attend and where should we do it? How much would you pay to attend such an event? Please PM me. Let's do something from all this talk on the Forum.

Clive

Edit: Maybe we can "invite" people from Hammersmith or Ashtons who do uncontrolled aerials or defend "their" slot :devil: ("cross-threading" topics - god I love it)

[Jive Brummie]

Good thread Gus :worthy:

I personally think that back to basics is an excellent idea....and here's the 'but'....BUT, I've a horrible feeling that people would approach these classes in the same way as people do already. As in do the required 8 -12 weeks at beginner level and then inflict yourself upon the more experienced dancers in the intermediate. Forgive me chaps, I don't mean to sound derogatory but often is the case, that people tend to move up the ranks rather too quickly.

Unfortunately for the paying customer perhaps, but a good thing in the long run (IMO) would be to introduce a grading system...in exactly the same way as everything else does :whistle: Let people chose to be in it if they want rather than making it a hard and fast rule and maybe introduce it slowly at first, looking towards making it compulsory later on. The only problem people generally have with 'Change' is that it's something different and the fear of the unknown.... So who's going to start it first then

I will if you like :wink:

I don't know why folks are determined to get into the intermediate class so quickly anyway...I danced for over 4 months as a beginner before stepping up and even then I was terrified :sick:

JB x x

[Baby Peaches]

Referring to the title 'back to basics'

I don't want to appear picky, but if we (Ceroc) all started calling them 'base' moves would we find that all the new dancers would not be so keen to move into the intermediate class as quickly as possible and would spend more time working on these 20 base moves. This might even allow them to actually listening to the music while they dance, focusing only on these moves before moving into the next level thus increasing their musicallity.

:yeah: "BASE" moves is a great term to use. :clap:

[robd]

I don't know why folks are determined to get into the intermediate class so quickly anyway...I danced for over 4 months as a beginner before stepping up and even then I was terrified :sick:


I attended between 10 and 12 lessons IIRC before participating in intermediate class. My only regret from this is that it meant I missed a double trouble lesson and we haven't had one since :sad: I sat and watched it instead and afterwards came to the conclusion I probably could have coped as it was pitched at a very low level (i.e done because there were about 25 extra ladies rather than to learn serious DT). But back to the point I am still amazed at how many people miss the incongruity of doing intermediate class with their pink 1st mover sticker on.

[ChrisA]

Then he herded us into a corner of the dance floor and taught floorcraft. We were no longer in lines.


What a great idea.

Indeed it is. But sadly a lot of people are completely oblivious to this kind of teaching.

Nigel taught a lesson in the early days of Hipsters that was along exactly these lines - small/slot/elbows/look/herding.

It was great... and did it make a blind bit of difference in the freestyle?

Nope :tears:

[Asif]

Good Posting Gus :clap:. PS - Nice to see you last week :)


Should Taxi Dancers be responsible for 'allowing' new dancers into the intermediate classes?

We cannot stop people moving up to the intermediate classes but maybe just advise them that they are just not "ready" yet.. :rolleyes:

I have been taxiing at Twickenham for years. As well as the beginners review class, i take an "improvers" class (which also takes place at the same time). This is for those that are no longer just "beginners" but still need help with linking moves, confidence, etc., before moving to the intermediate classes. I was told that i should teach this just like another review class but instead, i devised my own format and decided i would break down each move and teach the class how to "dance" the moves rather than just "do" them. This includes lead/follow, tension/compression, spacial awareness, spinning techniques, back-leading if necessary. Doing all of this, some weeks we only get through one or two moves but i have found the dance calibre of the people doing this is much higher than those who just decided to go into the intermediates classes so that they could learn more moves.

There is one couple in my improvers class who have been dancing for ages and don't like doing the intermediates because they said they prefer just to spend their class time practicing these basics rather than learning "new" moves :grin:

It would be great if people could be "advised" to do more review classes but it would difficult to enforce. Do any other franchise/venue have improver classes?

[Gus]

OK, we have talked a lot about this. Who wants to teach this , who wants to attend and where should we do it? OK. Discussed it with a few mates and am probably going to run it on a 'suck it and see' basis .... i.e. 2 FREE 1-hour sessions (one for intermediates, one for advanced - max 10 couples each) one Sunday around lunchtime at Kent House ..... then all go to the pub! :grin:

In the interests of 'spreading the word, will be inviting a few friendly instructors along and passing over my notes so that they can develop their own version (NOT that I'm saying they don't know this stuff already but it will save them time putting their courses together :))

So ... anyone interested, please drop me a line?

[Mr Cool]

:yeah: "BASE" moves is a great term to use. :clap:
:yeah:

Base moves is the right term. I dont believe you can label moves. Many of the most usefull moves like the simple change places and the first move, when done with flair and style are infact advanced and the basis of many jive dances.
I think most people would benefit from working on the perfection of the simple base moves, these so called simple moves which are infact a joy to watch and perform normally take a long time to perfect.
Get the basics right they are almost always more usefull than the triple spinning armlooping monster thingy of a move that sometimes masquerades as an advanced move.
Less is more :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: