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Ronde!
7th-January-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by horsey_dude
They ... will do things like ... having live bands to discourage us from dancing where I live.
What what what? Live bands *discourage* you from dancing? When we go out, there's nothing we'd rather dance to! Honestly, i can't remember the number of live gigs I've been to with Ceroc friends... we danced all New Year's Eve to a live Jazz/Pop band, and on the coming weekend we're all going to a live Swing performance, and in broad daylight!

I guess it's another case of different strokes for different folks. :)

TheTramp
7th-January-2003, 02:01 PM
I quite like live bands, and there are some fantastic ones out there (eg. The Jive Junkies).

The trouble with them, is that swing bands usually play stuff that's too fast for most people doing modern jive. And pop bands just do cover versions of well known pop tracks - usually not as well as the records.

It can add a bit of ambience to an evening though - if it's done well by the band. Ceroc in London (for the first time, to the best of my knowledge) tried it at their Christmas party this year, and the the only feedback I've heard (from a number of people), was that those people just couldn't wait for the band to finish....

Steve

Ronde!
7th-January-2003, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
those people just couldn't wait for the band to finish....
OKay, I've witnessed some truly underwhelming live performances myself... but could it be that perhaps we Ozzies are rather less discerning (and/or tasteful, take your pick!) in our dancing requirements compared with our antipodean compatriots?

I get the impression that while we'll dance to anything (I've never heard *anyone* complain about class music, not one), and we'll dance to live bands, club tracks, cheese, or blues, in a worker's club or outdoors, lit by two par-can 60's, fluorescent strips or in broad daylight, with music coming from a Minidisc player or a car stereo, dressed in slacks-and-a-T... sure, sandals are fine...

... in the UK there should be the right music mix or else, played by a proper DJ, on a proper dance floor with appropriate lighting, and live bands have to be pretty damn hot to make the cut! Or else people shall complain.

Honestly, it sounds like you have the most droolworthy setup compared to what we can manage to scrape together, yet I get the feeling we enjoy dancing rather more!!!

Just a bemused observation...

David Franklin
7th-January-2003, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Ronde!
I get the impression that while we'll dance to anything [snip]

... in the UK [snip] live bands have to be pretty damn hot to make the cut! Or else people shall complain.

Honestly, it sounds like you have the most droolworthy setup compared to what we can manage to scrape together, yet I get the feeling we enjoy dancing rather more!!!
Quite easy to explain - in an earlier post you gave a list of about 50 tunes with all but 1 being between 110 and 144BPM. You explicitly said the 170BPM was challenging and at "the top edge of Ceroc".



Well, a typical live band over here will probably play between 140 and 190BPM, with the [b]average close to 170BPM and with occasional outliers at 240BPM (yes, really!). Plus they tend to think most tracks should be 5-6 minutes long.

The only real exceptions I've seen to this have played nothing but popular covers, in which point you're left wondering why have a live band anyhowl. The band at Ceroc Hammersmith was in this category - most of the music was at least dancable.

Oh yes, and the drummer is usually too loud, and metronomic - so the band often has less expression than the original track did, and you wish you'd brought earplugs.

[/end rant]

You may gather I'm not a plan of live bands for dancing! One true exception I've experienced, "open mike" sessions at the Jazz Cafe in London - lots of fun, great atmosphere, and some fantastic (solo) jazz dancing going on at the sides.

To add my own bemused observation - I've never understood why some dance events will repeatedly book live bands who play too fast. You can watch the floor empty as they start playing, refill during their session break, and empty again when they return. You'd think the promoter would notice! Though maybe the theory is fast music -> thirsty dancers -> more bar sales?

Dave

TheTramp
7th-January-2003, 03:00 PM
and with occasional outliers at 240BPM Now, thats slightly challenging!! :D

Steve

DavidB
7th-January-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
why play records when you could have a band playing the same material.I'm sure if you paid Curtain, or Ceroc Jock, as much as you paid a band - they would play every song you ever wanted. Otherwise why should I pay extra to listen to often inferior versions of songs.


atmosphere wise, bands and audience/dancers tend to feed off each other creating more atmosphere.In my experience, most bands have absolutely no idea of what dancers like. In 18 years of dancing, I can think of 2 bands that I enjoyed dancing to (a blues band in Houston, and the Ross Mitchell Band when they played at a ball). Otherwise bands play too much music that is simply the wrong speed. And I have yet to see a band 'playing' with the audience in the same way as the dancers 'play with the music' - eg as dancers catch on to the structure of a song, they could change the breaks, or the speed. They could extend highlights, or change the feeling to give dancers a variety. (I'm not a musician - I don't know if this is possible, or practical)

As with anything else about music, personal preference is the most important thing. I know one very good jive dancer who rarely goes to any venue unless they have a live band. Personally I don't usually like more than 3 tracks of the same type of music in a row. Most bands only play one type of music, so I get bored 10 minutes into their set. Cover Bands that do play a variety of music rarely play it anything as well as the original. The worst thing is when they take all the breaks and highlights out.

Live music is great for dance styles that are more focussed in their preferences for music (eg Lindy, Rock'n'Roll, Salsa, Ballroom). But for those styles that aim for a broader range of music, live music is generally less popular.

David

Emma
7th-January-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by Ronde!

, and we'll dance to live bands, club tracks, cheese, or blues,



Cheese? Stilton or Cheddar? :wink:

Ronde!
8th-January-2003, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Emma

Cheese? Stilton or Cheddar? :wink:
Anything goes... I thought it was considered rather sophisticated to have "Cheese and C'rocers" after dinner. :)

JMW
12th-January-2003, 10:59 PM
I'd have to disagree with the consensus on this thread. Nothing beats a live band. Most bands I've come accross appreciate people dancing - it's a bit more of a compliment than sitting there giving them a half hearted round of applause every so often.

James W.

PS. If the music is too fast only dance every second beat. You get a syncopated kind of style which is quite stylish as well as fun. That way the band can play as fast as they like AND because everyone else has given up you get some precious dancefloor space to yourself to show off.

Gus
13th-January-2003, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by JMW
I'd have to disagree with the consensus on this thread. Nothing beats a live band.......
PS. If the music is too fast only dance every second beat.

Must admit I have to go with the consensus ... seen the Fat Cats a number of times .... great band but more Jump'n'Jive than Modern Jive ..... love watching them but even with a posse of the better dancers form the North West could only dance to a few tracks. The idea of dancing to evry other beat can make the dancing look just plain silly. Its not uncommon to 'blues' out a really fast track )e.g. Zoot Suit Riot) but it depends on the 'feel' of the tracks and a lot of the time it just doesn'y look right.

Of course you can dance to any beat but then again I've seen loads of dancers going for it to tracks that arn't really danceable ... but they still seem to having a good time no matter what it looks like.....

Ronde!
13th-January-2003, 12:34 PM
Well, about 30 of us went to see "In Full Swing" (a Swing big band) live, at the National Botanic Gardens on Saturday afternoon. Just as many people in this thread forewarned, the music was quite faaaaaast! I reckon it averaged 145 BPM; not undancable, but not quite comfortable; most people could only dance a couple of numbers in a row before needing a break. :)

However, it was still a lovely day for a picnic on the lawns, and quite a few hundred fellow-picnicker-spectators got some entertainment out of watching us attempt Ceroc at 160BPM on a pebble path. :)

I think we love the unpredictability and the challenge of live bands, but I'm aware that this won't appeal to everyone; and of course, there's the lovely people - sometimes the company is the most wonderful thing about Ceroc, even more than the dancing. :) We also seem to encounter quite danceable bands here; they tend to play pop covers at fairly good tempos... so perhaps we aren't encountering the same difficulties with fast bands, or at least not with the same frequency... :)

Live passionately,

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
13th-January-2003, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by JMW
If the music is too fast only dance every second beat. You get a syncopated kind of style which is quite stylish as well as fun.

I'm with you on this one JMW. I love live bands, but it's hard to Ceroc to 'em. Much easier with Lindy Hop or Boogie Woogie where you can do lots of shuffley footwork, and also there's no rigid arm moves to slow things down.

DavidB
13th-January-2003, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by JMW
If the music is too fast only dance every second beat. You get a syncopated kind of style which is quite stylish as well as fun.If you can dance jive to music that is anything from 100 to 160 bpm, then dancing to every second beat would work if the music was faster than 200 bpm. It depends a lot on the music. Sometimes it feels right, sometimes it doesn't. You will never be off time, but you can find that you are dancing very slowly to a very fast song.

It still leaves you with the problem of what to do from 160 to 200 bpm. The easiest dances to do are East Coast Swing or Lindy. But if you don't know these dances, you either get very tired trying to do jive, or you sit down.

As well as doing some dances at half speed, you can also do some at double speed. If you take single time East Coast Swing (ie step on 12, step on 34 and rock step on 56) and do it twice as fast (step on 1, step on 2, and rock step on &3) you get another dance called Hustle. (It is not quite that simple. You are now dancing off time for half the song. This only works with certain types of music.)


Originally posted by Basil Brush
and also there's no rigid arm moves to slow things down. You will have to explain this one to me. I find it is the body and feet that stop me dancing jive fast, not the arms.

TheTramp
13th-January-2003, 10:11 PM
You will never be off time, but you can find that you are dancing very slowly to a very fast songI second this....
If you take songs that are in excess of 200bpm, and half this, you end up at 100bpm - example of this would be 'The Mooche', which is 102bpm, or probably more well known is 'Wade in the Water' at 111bpm. So, basically, you end up doing blues to 'Zoot Suit Riot'. Which I think would look particularly strange for the whole track. Alright for a bit in the middle to get your breath back though :D

And, as David says, you still have a real problem with tracks that are approaching 200bpm - half that, and you're dancing in jelly!!

The only other option if you don't know all the other styles of dance which are designed for fast track (which is the one I use), is to forget about doing jive 'moves', and just play with the music.

I also don't understand what you mean about 'rigid arm moves'.

Steve

Dance Demon
14th-January-2003, 01:28 AM
I was involved in running a venue earlier this year, that had a mixture of live music and DJs. Unfortunately it folded, not because it was unpopular, but because of complaints from neighbours about noise. We tried a variety of bands, ranging from Rockabilly, (Hi Voltage)Swing(Fat Sams Band) to Blues( Blues Inc., Big Girls Blues) and a jump jive band(The Cobras). Some of the bands played a few numbers that were quite fast and some people found them hard to dance to. However the overall opinion was that it was great to dance to a live band and on the whole the atmosphere was great. Some people enjoyed just watching and listening, as they had plenty of oportunity to dance when the DJs were on. I go to some clubs where the punters feel short changed if there is no band, although they are not "Modern" jive nights.

DD:D :devil:

JiveMagic
7th-March-2003, 02:03 PM
Interesting comments regarding bands who's music is too fast... My take on the subject is that it's not the bands fault, but the the organiser / promoter not doing their homework properly. When I was on the lookout for a band for Jive Magic's Christmas dance I went to great efforts to ensure the music played was what we wanted. This included :

- Obtaining a full playlist of numbers and recordings of their performances
- Explaining what modern jive was all about
- Agreeing a tempo range of 120 - 160 bpm
- Selecting the numbers & specifying the preferred tempo for each
- Ordering the playlist to ensure no more that 1 or 2 fast numbers were played back to back

Maybe I was lucky with our band (Swing Shift) and they were exceptionally flexible?! Swing Shift are a 15 piece outfit, made up of ex professional session musicians who have played for the likes of Tom Jones, Van Morrison & many 60's & 70's artists. Anyway, the result was a fantastic evening which everyone enjoyed. So much so, that we've re-booked them for our May dinner dance.

Jon