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Feelingpink
19th-September-2005, 09:37 PM
I got talking to someone at the Southport weekend who, in every sense of the word, is a gentleman. He is very much his own person with his own opinions but puts them forward in such a gently assertive way (and with a twinkle in his eye) that you want to listen to them. I then came back to the forum and saw examples of the opposite.

I know we’re a forum which is a place to exchange differing views and I know that people have strong opinions and can play with light-hearted banter. But in the past six months or so, it seems that some of the exchanges are nasty where they don’t have to be. Attacks have been on people rather than on trains of thought and it seems to me that some of these are ‘hidden’ behind people’s signatures. I don’t believe that if I give myself a new signature (for example, Bitch on Speed, Beware) that it excuses me from treating others on the forum with respect.

Perhaps I’m just seeing this through cynical eyes and this is just a stage that the forum is going through, but I don’t like it. What do others think?

Piglet
19th-September-2005, 09:44 PM
I'm with you FP! It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to see forumites bad mouthing others (and lately it seems to have been at the drop of a hat - but perhaps these instances just stick out in the mind easier?)

I'd much rather come onto this forum and be informed and have fun, rather than be drawn in to someone's personal sparring match - which I feel I am being by simply reading their threads/posts.

I'm all for free speech, but there's always two sides to a story (even if the story's mine! ;) )

Minnie M
19th-September-2005, 09:52 PM
I get irritated sometimes by the odd post, or even the odd poster :blush: and then go head first without thinking replying, not realising that it is a public forum.

It is so easy when it is just you and your keyboard and no sensible person say "think before you type" behind you.

Does it bring the real you out, or the Mr. Hyde, or is the Mr. Hyde the REAL you :eek:

El Salsero Gringo
19th-September-2005, 11:40 PM
Attacks have been on people rather than on trains of thought and it seems to me that some of these are ‘hidden’ behind people’s signatures. I don’t believe that if I give myself a new signature (for example, Bitch on Speed, Beware) that it excuses me from treating others on the forum with respect.Who are you having a go at? You obviously have someone(s) in mind, don't you think you should say who?

Feelingpink
19th-September-2005, 11:46 PM
Who are you having a go at? You obviously have someone(s) in mind, don't you think you should say who?No one person - it's the collective experience of many posts from a number of people giving an overall impolite impression.

El Salsero Gringo
19th-September-2005, 11:52 PM
No one person - it's the collective experience of many posts from a number of people giving an overall impolite impression.OK, well, I've only been a member for 8 months, but, reading back over the last few years of threads, I'd say that most postings are more considerate and less ill-mannered than they used to be. There was a while ago a whole lot of very unpleasant argument between Mikey and various others (the worst of which I understand was actually removed from the Forum) as well as a host of other stuff. Very little of what people write at the moment is personal or based on people's history at the moment, whereas it is based on what people actually do or say. Which is as it should be. Just my opinion.

MartinHarper
20th-September-2005, 12:00 AM
Some of these are ‘hidden’ behind people’s signatures.

I clicked the option in my profile to hide signatures - strictly on doctor's orders. She was worried that the combined effect of all that hilarity might get me overexcited and cause me to pass out in a pool of my own vomit. I can definately recommend that option. Hiding signatures is fun too.


I got talking to someone at the Southport weekend who, in every sense of the word, is a gentleman. He is very much his own person with his own opinions but puts them forward in such a gently assertive way (and with a twinkle in his eye) that you want to listen to them. I then came back to the forum and saw examples of the opposite.

So, just to clarify, this paragraph was about "no one person"?

ducasi
20th-September-2005, 07:33 AM
So, just to clarify, this paragraph was about "no one person"? Well it does say "examples", doesn't it?

Lou
20th-September-2005, 07:38 AM
Perhaps I’m just seeing this through cynical eyes and this is just a stage that the forum is going through, but I don’t like it. What do others think?
I don't see it that way. Maybe it's because I've been a member of many different forums, etc. over the years, but I find this to be one of the most friendly sites I belong to.

There are certainly less flamefests here - and I tend to attribute it to the fact that we're not faceless strangers. After all, the vast majority of us have close bodily contact with at least one other forumite on a regular basis!

I think that you need a :hug:, Feelingpink.

Feelingpink
20th-September-2005, 08:17 AM
So, just to clarify, this paragraph was about "no one person"?Exactly. I was looking at a selection of new and old posts.

David Franklin
20th-September-2005, 08:18 AM
Who are you having a go at? You obviously have someone(s) in mind, don't you think you should say who?Not quite "as you ask", but let me say that I think your "name names" initiative is one of the worst ideas seen on the forum, and is not helping the tone.

As far as comparing to other forums - I find we're somewhere in the middle as far as rudeness. Dance Forums (www.dance-forums.com) is much more polite, Salsa Mafia (www.salsamafia.com) is much ruder. And rec.arts.dance has basically been reduced to five grumpy old men arguing politics, while the occasional post about dance blows across like tumbleweed...

I have to say, a lot of the people I enjoyed reading here have either left the forum or now only post rarely. In all the cases where I know why, the sniping and bickering was a major factor.

Feelingpink
20th-September-2005, 08:26 AM
I don't see it that way. Maybe it's because I've been a member of many different forums, etc. over the years, but I find this to be one of the most friendly sites I belong to.

There are certainly less flamefests here - and I tend to attribute it to the fact that we're not faceless strangers. After all, the vast majority of us have close bodily contact with at least one other forumite on a regular basis!

I think that you need a :hug:, Feelingpink.Thanks for your post (and the hug :wink: ). You may well have a point about this forum being generally friendlier than others.

The other main forum I'm on often involves the moderators removing posts and threatening to close threads because personal attacks. I originally posted because I wondered if the tone on this forum was changing to being generally less friendly than it has been. Then again, I could just be a bit tired post-Southport.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2005, 08:29 AM
Not quite "as you ask", but let me say that I think your "name names" initiative is one of the worst ideas seen on the forum, and is not helping the tone.I'm flattered that you think I can "set the tone" for the Forum, but I can't. If people prefer to whinge anonymously then that's what they'll carry on doing.
I have to say, a lot of the people I enjoyed reading here have either left the forum or now only post rarely. In all the cases where I know why, the sniping and bickering was a major factor.I don't suppose there's any point in asking you to say who? :whistle:

ChrisA
20th-September-2005, 10:26 AM
but let me say that I think your "name names" initiative is one of the worst ideas seen on the forum, and is not helping the tone.


.... :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:



I'm flattered that you think I can "set the tone" for the Forum, but I can't. If people prefer to whinge anonymously then that's what they'll carry on doing.

This is exactly the sort of disingenuous partial misquote that you get so often from politicians. They appear to respond to what was said, but they change it slightly to make it easier for them to remain on their own message.

Just to be completely specific, David didn't say that you "set the tone", he said that your initiative is not helping the tone, and I agree with this. Anyone who can string a sentence together and therefore appears coherent can be disproportionately influential quite easily - and if they are prolific as well as coherent the effect can be amplified.

I spelled it out yesterday - the reason the "naming without naming" is bad is that usually it's (a) quite easy to get a reasonable idea of who is being "not named" if you're in the know and (b) it also spreads enough doubt around as to who it might be, to unfairly target those who were present, but not guilty.

It does not follow that it is good to name names.

I still maintain, despite your "self-righteous" dig yesterday, that publicly slagging off people (especially when the slagger doesn't have the courage to take up the issue in person) is not a good use for this forum, and as David says, does not help the tone.

Clive Long
20th-September-2005, 11:06 AM
<< good, good stuff >>
Attacks have been on people rather than on trains of thought

:yeah: This absolutely crystallises for me how argument should be conducted on the forum.

Attack the idea NOT the person.

If you don't like something about someone's dancing - take it up with him/her personally - not in public. However, see later(*)


Perhaps I’m just seeing this through cynical eyes and this is just a stage that the forum is going through, but I don’t like it. What do others think?
Again. Bang on the money. :yeah: I don't like it either. It hurts me to see it going on.

Regarding feedback to another dancer ...

It takes a brave and mature person with presence of mind to say immediately after a dance "Thank-you. But I did feel a little left out at times. What do you suggest I do when you are dancing on your own?" As long as it's not a snide criticism but a genuine question I think that's fair. However, I do think an advanced dancer should adjust their game to match their partner - Viktor, :worthy: , said that explicitely in his style class and I have heard him say that before. Don't be in awe of a better partner but also don't think that because you found them tricky to dance with the fault is all theirs. As in the famous ChrisA dictum "become a better dancer". Contradictory stuff, as always.




I'm flattered that you think I can "set the tone" for the Forum, but I can't. If people prefer to whinge anonymously then that's what they'll carry on doing.

This is exactly the sort of disingenuous partial misquote that you get so often from politicians. They appear to respond to what was said, but they change it slightly to make it easier for them to remain on their own message.

Just to be completely specific, David didn't say that you "set the tone", he said that your initiative is not helping the tone, and I agree with this.

Me too, me too. Bad ESG.

Regarding (*) and going off-topic
Is any teacher going to stand up in front of a class and say (regularly and clearly)?

"We are here to have fun. You might meet someone you like, if you do, that's lovely. However, if someone does something that makes you feel uncomfortable or hurts you please let them know in as nice as possible a way as possible.They may not know they did it and be grateful you told them. However, if they get offended by your comment ask them to take it up with me (the teacher) and I will comment on their dancing and behaviour"

Maybe Mr. McGregor does this?

Clive

David Bailey
20th-September-2005, 11:17 AM
and going off-topic
And about time too.


"We are here to have fun. You might meet someone you like, if you do, that's lovely. However, if someone does something that makes you feel uncomfortable or hurts you please let them know in as nice as possible a way as possible.They may not know they did it and be grateful you told them. However, if they get offended by your comment ask them to take it up with me (the teacher) and I will comment on their dancing and behaviour"
Can I just say, that's the best and most concise encapsulation of dance etiquette I've heard in a long time? :clap: :worthy:

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2005, 11:48 AM
.... :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:


This is exactly the sort of disingenuous partial misquote that you get so often from politicians. They appear to respond to what was said, but they change it slightly to make it easier for them to remain on their own message.

Just to be completely specific, David didn't say that you "set the tone", he said that your initiative is not helping the tone, and I agree with this. Anyone who can string a sentence together and therefore appears coherent can be disproportionately influential quite easily - and if they are prolific as well as coherent the effect can be amplified.

I spelled it out yesterday - the reason the "naming without naming" is bad is that usually it's (a) quite easy to get a reasonable idea of who is being "not named" if you're in the know and (b) it also spreads enough doubt around as to who it might be, to unfairly target those who were present, but not guilty.

It does not follow that it is good to name names.

I still maintain, despite your "self-righteous" dig yesterday, that publicly slagging off people (especially when the slagger doesn't have the courage to take up the issue in person) is not a good use for this forum, and as David says, does not help the tone.
All right, well, in case you think I'm misquoting, I'll quote your whole post.

The reason why I prefer people to say who they're talking about is because if people get out of the habit of thinking they can anonymously 'whinge', they might actually whinge less. I've posted lots on this forum about how there's too much whinging. If people are going to complain I prefer to know about whom. It's not an initiative; it's not a campaign; it's not a tone-setting agenda. It's my personal preference, in that I hope that it makes people think twice about what they say and that the people of whom they speak are likely to read it.

David and Chris and anyone else please, whinge away. I look forward to reading your well constructed, cogent, coherent complaints about your fellow dancers - anonymous or otherwise.

ChrisA
20th-September-2005, 11:51 AM
The reason why I prefer people to say who they're talking about is because if people get out of the habit of thinking they can anonymously 'whinge', they might actually whinge less.
Dream on.

Though I think we agree that less whinging would be better.

It's a tricky thing, though, to talk generally about some aspect of the dance experience that hasn't been right, with the intention of stimulating the debate and maybe improving things, without it sounding like a whinge to at least some people. I know I haven't always got it right, either.

MartinHarper
20th-September-2005, 12:01 PM
I do think an advanced dancer should adjust their game to match their partner

Nod.
Often, dancing straight through a break is the right thing to do.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-September-2005, 12:12 PM
I know I haven't always got it right, either.???? Don't be silly Chris, you never whinge. You simply raise things for discussion, in your own peculiar manner.

BTW, does whinging about the amount of whinging count in the total? Or is that a whine, instead?

CJ
20th-September-2005, 12:13 PM
Dream on.


FWIW, I disagree, Chris.

Personally, for me, if I have anything negative to say, I say it directly and specifically. I am sure you'll remember times that we have crossed swords on stuff before.

Because of my approach (and admittedly a couple of horrible lessons), I tend not to whinge here. Knowing that what I say can have serious repurcussions, even if it is through misinterperetation, I think long and hard before saying something negative.

Perhaps, if we all had the courage of our convictions, less vague, non-specific negativity would be around to drag us all down.

That said, I still think this is an incredibly positive forum with many many warm generous people. Even those I consider to be less warm, or less on my wavelength, still have positives to bring to the party.

Long may it continue... :D

Dreadful Scathe
20th-September-2005, 12:14 PM
I don't suppose there's any point in asking you to say who? :whistle:

oh behave :)

we all know all the interesting people don't post much now ;)

Asif
20th-September-2005, 12:28 PM
Often, dancing straight through a break is the right thing to do.
My God Man!! You cannot be serious :eek: The next thing you'll be asking us to do is start bouncing more :what:

ChrisA
20th-September-2005, 01:04 PM
FWIW, I disagree, Chris.

And FWIW, on reflection, I think you're probably right.

It may indeed be the case that if someone given to the "naming without naming" kind of personal attack (for that's what it often is, even if the person feels wronged somehow), thinks that it's no longer acceptable, then maybe they will hold back rather than making it even stronger and naming the name.

Which is a good thing.

However, I don't feel that the route to encouraging people to stop making personal attacks, is to encourage them to name names, particularly, as I've said, since mostly they don't seem to have the courage or presence of mind or both to take it up with the person at the time.

I think we should discourage personal attacks, whether names are named or not.

DavidY
20th-September-2005, 01:10 PM
I do think an advanced dancer should adjust their game to match their partner
Nod.
Often, dancing straight through a break is the right thing to do.
My God Man!! You cannot be serious :eek: The next thing you'll be asking us to do is start bouncing more :what:No I think Martin's right. For instance if I'm taxiing, dancing with an absolute beginner who is trying to "get" the moves they've just learnt, I think it's more helpful to keep dancing the moves they expect, in time, rather than confuse them by stopping or doing something different.

spindr
20th-September-2005, 01:14 PM
Hmmmm,

I think if there is a general issues, then raise it generally, e.g. if you're going to bitch about shines then bitch about shines (http://www.salsamafia.com/index.php?Load=Bitches_Shines.html).

Semi-anonymized postings about "a certain Ceroc teacher", or "this bald bloke in black" either don't tend to hide identities terribly well, or end up tarring a large innocent section of the populous -- in that case specificity is to be preferred.

But what worries me slightly more is to see condensed versions of private conversations appearing on here -- "so-and-so said to me that they had a problem". Is it getting to the stage that conversations with certain forumites will have to begin with "Off the record." :)

Ho hum,
SpinDr.

David Bailey
20th-September-2005, 01:23 PM
Semi-anonymized postings about ... "this bald bloke in black" either don't tend to hide identities terribly well,
Actually, I think that one covers most male dancers :innocent:

Clive Long
20th-September-2005, 01:26 PM
Semi-anonymized postings about ... "this bald bloke in black" either don't tend to hide identities terribly well,


Actually, I think that one covers most male dancers :innocent:
And there was I getting paranoid.

Ego adjustment ....... done.

Clive

CJ
20th-September-2005, 01:35 PM
Actually, I think that one covers most male dancers :innocent:


Pheewwwwww... I'm safe :wink:

ducasi
20th-September-2005, 02:02 PM
Actually, I think that one covers most male dancers :innocent: Not me, thanks very much! :na:

Well, I do wear black quite often, but I don't think enough that anyone would call me a MIB. Anyone?

Asif
20th-September-2005, 04:14 PM
No I think Martin's right. For instance if I'm taxiing, dancing with an absolute beginner who is trying to "get" the moves they've just learnt, I think it's more helpful to keep dancing the moves they expect, in time, rather than confuse them by stopping or doing something different.
Hang on a minute there! I think you have your wires-crossed :confused: . I assume DavidY that you are a male :confused: in which case you are supposed to be leading the moves, not teaching the beginner to get into that worst of all habits of pre-empting the next move. If you are going over the beginners lesson again, then you won't be adding in breaks or doing something different as it wouldn't make sense to but this isn't what we are talking about anyway!

I have lost count of the number of times i have danced with someone who has just stopped or looked blankly at me during our dance and said "oh, what was that you were trying to do" or "i haven't been taught how to do it that way" because they are so used to doing the moves themselves intstead of actually following the guy.

bigdjiver
20th-September-2005, 04:34 PM
...Semi-anonymized postings about "a certain Ceroc teacher", or "this bald bloke in black" either don't tend to hide identities terribly well, or end up tarring a large innocent section of the populous -- in that case specificity is to be preferred...I once had a leaving card with, amongst all the usual stuff, "Good luck, Lurch." written in it. That deflated me then. It really made me feel uncomfortable to see references on this forum to misconduct by a different "Lurch". There have been several times where I have wrongly identified more positive unamed references on this forum.

This is one of the hazards of using a wide forum for what should be conversations between a small group of friends, to whom the bald guy in black only means one person. Perhaps the decision to name or to describe should also include to post here or to PM, or of course, to stay silent. (but where's the fun in that?)

DavidY
20th-September-2005, 05:14 PM
Hang on a minute there! I think you have your wires-crossed :confused: . I assume DavidY that you are a male :confused: in which case you are supposed to be leading the moves, not teaching the beginner to get into that worst of all habits of pre-empting the next move.I didn't say I'd do them in the same order as the lesson. :wink: Obviously I usually throw in some simple extra variation to stop women mechanically doing Move 1 followed by Move 2 followed by Move 3 followed by Move 4 followed by Move 1....

But I still think stopping or making another change for a break in the middle of Move 3 will not always be helpful to the beginner who only knows 4 moves, even if the music screams "break" to you.

Andreas
20th-September-2005, 10:15 PM
No I think Martin's right. For instance if I'm taxiing, dancing with an absolute beginner who is trying to "get" the moves they've just learnt, I think it's more helpful to keep dancing the moves they expect, in time, rather than confuse them by stopping or doing something different.

It is so much more interesting to be off topic :D

I disgree! If you as the more advanced person are capable to 'see breaks coming' then you will be able to finish the moves in a way that is appropriate AND still interpret the break. If you can't do that then you should indeed dance through the breaks and work on your musicality to raise it a notch. The good (and bad) thing about musicality is that you will NEVER master it. You can only get better ;)

Whenever I get a questioning look from a beginner/intermediate in such a situation I simply count through the break for them so they get an idea that there is a reason for it.

ducasi
20th-September-2005, 11:45 PM
No I think Martin's right. For instance if I'm taxiing, dancing with an absolute beginner who is trying to "get" the moves they've just learnt, I think it's more helpful to keep dancing the moves they expect, in time, rather than confuse them by stopping or doing something different.
I sort-of agree, but tonight I was dancing with a two-week beginner who was even having problems with a first move, but she had no problems following my breaks. I felt really good that one, I was getting the breaks, two, that I was able to lead them with a novice, and three, that she seemed to get why I was doing what I was doing!

One of my best dances of the night. :D

Asif
21st-September-2005, 02:37 PM
But I still think stopping or making another change for a break in the middle of Move 3 will not always be helpful to the beginner who only knows 4 moves, even if the music screams "break" to you.
I agree totally with Andreas - As an advanced dancer, hopefully you will dance accordingly and be able to finish the moves appropriately AND still interpret the break (if you wish), otherwise don't.

And if the music IS screaming at you, have a "Polite" word with the DJ and get him/her to re-adjust the sound levels :rofl: