Is the Dance important for Ceroc?

[Gus]

Ok ... mild musing no. 437.

Being looking at trying to learn to dance .... lots of reasons but had been looking at capoeira, salsa, jazz dance ... all the usual suspects. Then thought, if we can start from the premise that MJ is a composite dance form, then if the people doing it wanted to progress then there would be a whole host of MJers actively perusing other dance forms. BUT, my own experience and conversations would suggest that this is not the case. SO ... taking this logic forward, is the actual dance element of MJ the core thing .. or is it just an excuse to engage in something that is primarily social event? That would explain why the vast majority of dnacers get to a certain level then feel no need to progress.

[under par]

Ok ... mild musing no. 437.



Okay you have won the comp for most new threads in a single day....what was the prize..??


:worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

So pleased your threads aren't all fluffy! :worthy: :worthy:

Will post more substantial reply later got to go to work shortly.

[azande]

Ok ... mild musing no. 437.

Being looking at trying to learn to dance .... lots of reasons but had been looking at capoeira, salsa, jazz dance ... all the usual suspects. Then thought, if we can start from the premise that MJ is a composite dance form, then if the people doing it wanted to progress then there would be a whole host of MJers actively perusing other dance forms. BUT, my own experience and conversations would suggest that this is not the case. SO ... taking this logic forward, is the actual dance element of MJ the core thing .. or is it just an excuse to engage in something that is primarily social event? That would explain why the vast majority of dnacers get to a certain level then feel no need to progress.And your point being?

[Little Monkey]

I have the feeling that for the majority of people attending ceroc classes, the social aspect of a ceroc night is equally importand to the dance itself. And most people are happy with just being competent at ceroc, and don't strive to develop further by going to other dance classes.

More experienced dancers, competitors etc do seem to dip into a lot of other styles, though - salsa, tango, ballroom etc. If this is to become better dancers or simply because they get bored with just doing MJ after a while I don't know. For me it's both, but what's really stopping me from becoming a better dancer is lack of money and time to invest in more dance classes (I'd love to do WCS, Lindy, Salsa, Ballroom etc....)

LM

[Feelingpink]

Ok ... mild musing no. 437.

Being looking at trying to learn to dance .... I get the fifth post and no-one has taken the proverbial out of you for this statement. Shame on the forum. :wink:



More experienced dancers, competitors etc do seem to dip into a lot of other styles, though - salsa, tango, ballroom etc. If this is to become better dancers or simply because they get bored with just doing MJ after a while I don't know. For me it's both, but what's really stopping me from becoming a better dancer is lack of money and time to invest in more dance classes (I'd love to do WCS, Lindy, Salsa, Ballroom etc....)

LM

For me it's both as well. I started dancing about 12 years ago with Ceroc, did perhaps 18 months, went to a few weekenders, got bored and gave up. I tried lindy a number of years later and found a confusing number of styles and cliques (as well as some exceptionally nice people) and got less keen. Then I flatted with Rhythm King and he introduced me to Hipsters (where I didn't get bored) and now my dance 'home' is Jango, where I'm not bored and where the lovely Kate and Will's lessons are spot on. And yet, I'm still not quite happy with 'just' doing this and am trying a street dance class once a week because somehow I want to bring something else into my dancing.

A conversation at the weekend with another dancer suggested that for many people, they start dancing and often feel the need to move to another form for new challenges. For many, it has been lindy, now there is west coast swing and perhaps others like tango and ballroom.

What was a surprise was dancing with an especially wonderful lead at the weekend and thinking how dreamy it was ... then figuring out that we had actually danced about 10 months ago and my memory had only registered that he was fun company and had an amusing choice of shirts. Perhaps he's improved, but I suspect that it is more to do with my appreciation of a good lead increasing.

[tsh]

I've come across quite a few people who have got bored with MJ after a year or so... I guess that they liked the simplicity to start with, but maybe found learning another style too much effort - and so stopped dancing altogether.

Sean

[MartinHarper]

If we can start from the premise that MJ is a composite dance form, then if the people doing it wanted to progress then there would be a whole host of MJers actively perusing other dance forms.

The composite nature of MJ seems to actively discourage some folks from learning other dances - why learn Salsa when you can MJ to Latin tracks and swish your hips a bit more? I think that's daft, but that's what folks say.

I'm thinking of the MJ weekenders and the Lindy weekenders I've been on (Lindy being another mongrel dance), and how many alternative dance styles they offer, and I've not noticed that the Lindy weekenders offer a substantially wider choice. Sure, Rock Bottoms Lindy had African Dancing, but Southport had American two-step. It'd be interesting to hear from folks with more experience than me on this: do Salsa weekenders focus exclusively on Salsa?

[latinlover]

I have the feeling that for the majority of people attending ceroc classes, the social aspect of a ceroc night is equally importand to the dance itself. And most people are happy with just being competent at ceroc, and don't strive to develop further by going to other dance classes.

More experienced dancers, competitors etc do seem to dip into a lot of other styles, though - salsa, tango, ballroom etc. If this is to become better dancers or simply because they get bored with just doing MJ after a while I don't know. For me it's both, but what's really stopping me from becoming a better dancer is lack of money and time to invest in more dance classes (I'd love to do WCS, Lindy, Salsa, Ballroom etc....)

LM

:yeah:

what she said!

I am very grateful to the friend who introduced us to Ceroc as I'd always wanted to be able to do more than "muggle" dancing but never found the opportunity ,or structured circumstances which Ceroc offers. I had a bash at ballroom (in order to try and catch up with Susan) when our children were very young and found I couldn't give it the commitment it needed at the time.
Four and a half years on from discovering Ceroc I have started to learn salsa, have dabbled in some more ballroom (Strictly No Sequins :clap: bring it back please)and am about to start Tango in earnest :drool: .
So for ME the dancing is the important thing,the socialising secondary - especially as I am in the fortunate position of being married to my favourite dancer anyway (smug alert ON!).

The great thing about ceroc(or whatever)is that there is room for all -from dance-junkies to singles in search of a mate,and as far as I am concerned it all works fantastically well (unless my wife gets targeted by one of the singles,but that's another story :wink: )

You can get out of ceroc whatever you like,and if it's not sophiticated enough for you , there are plenty of places to move on to.
I do think that the vast majority of ceroc punters do not really DANCE (as I would define dance), but as long as they are enjoying themselves and not actually hurting people ,then good for them. They have obviously settled at their natural level and who can criticise them for that? And equally, who can criticise ceroc for it? It gives alot of pleasure to a hell of a lot of people on all sorts of levels - and no I am not employed by ceroc global enerprises.com or whatever :wink:


oooh .... essay over , back to work :cheers:

[CJ]

And your point being?

Gus was making a point?!?! :eek:

[David Bailey]

The composite nature of MJ seems to actively discourage some folks from learning other dances
Really? I'd have said the opposite - because it has tasters of other dances, this encourages people to learn more of those dances.


- why learn Salsa when you can MJ to Latin tracks and swish your hips a bit more? I think that's daft, but that's what folks say.
I think you can safely put me in the "yes, that's very very daft" camp...


do Salsa weekenders focus exclusively on Salsa?
Pretty much - they're very boring that way. OK, they teach Rueda, bachata, Cha-cha etc., but it's mainly salsa-y things.

[azande]

Gus was making a point?!?! :eek:
I was actually trying to find out if he was...... :really:

[Gus]

I was actually trying to find out if he was...... :really:Not so much a point as opening up a discussion. I was interested as to whether there was a view that the dance element of MJ was actualy what brought people back week after week. Personal view is that or my main club, the dancing is entirely secondary. I can go to the club, have a drink with friends, listen to really cool music and watch some great dancing ... great entertainment. Why should I spoil it all by actualy exerting myself? :wink:

[JoC]

I was interested as to whether there was a view that the dance element of MJ was actualy what brought people back week after week.First and foremost it's the dance for me. I love the dancing so I come back to dance some more. I love learning new things, I love finally getting the hang of moves I couldn't do before, I love trying to progress and improve, I love when anyone enjoys a dance with me. Almost a year on and I'm still not brilliant at the social thing so if that's what I was after I'd have given up ages ago.
:)

I also feel inspired to dabble in other dance styles because of the 'taster' effect DJ mentions above. The world of dance used to look quite inaccessible to me, Ceroc is accessible, and gives many people like me, I think, the confidence to go for it with other styles.

In fact I think having started dabbling I'm finding a new appreciation for Ceroc, in that I can distinctly identify some of the things that for me make Ceroc a wonderful dance style in it's own right. At the moment, I'm really noticing the energy, technique, potential variety of steps, music, style and pace, and the need for immediate response when following and good connection.

I can't compare it to any other MJ because I haven't tried any other MJ but I for one am finding plenty to appreciate in terms of the dancing. :)

[Gojive]

I was interested as to whether there was a view that the dance element of MJ was actualy what brought people back week after week.

As with JoC, for me that was exactly my reason at the beginning. However...


Personal view is that or my main club, the dancing is entirely secondary. I can go to the club, have a drink with friends, listen to really cool music and watch some great dancing ... great entertainment.

As time has gone on (about 6 years since I started), the social side of MJ, together with the growing appreciation I have of others dancing well, means perhaps my initial reasons have changed somewhat.

I'm now equally in my element with having a great dance with a fantastic dancer, as I am watching a fantastic dancer having a great dance :)

Does that make sense :confused: :)

[Dorothy]

I think it is the dance element that drives me back week after week (and often more than once per week). The social side is secondary importance, but the two together is probably the formula for ceroc's success. There is a small segment of 'better dancers' in Edinburgh, and I am sure elsewhere, who seem to stay in their small groups and look very serious about is all, so maybe the social side is not so important for them.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I think it is the dance element that drives me back week after week (and often more than once per week). The social side is secondary importance, but the two together is probably the formula for ceroc's success. There is a small segment of 'better dancers' in Edinburgh, and I am sure elsewhere, who seem to stay in their small groups and look very serious about is all, so maybe the social side is not so important for them.

The social side is, Im sure, just as important to them. The small group is probably just a group of friends that have been dancing a while :) Its often the case that 'better dancers' become seperated simply by the fact that they join their friends who also happen to be good dancers and people assume they are in some sort of good dancers club. Theres certainly no cliques of people that I've seen in Scotland. Apart from length of time dancing it is no different to a group of beginners standing together! :)
If these people are in a habit of saying no, thats different ...but are they?

[Anna]

A good friend of mine once described Ceroc as the fast food of dancing... :whistle:

For many of the Salsero-Cerocer's out here.. Ceroc is very much a social thing.. example: Friday night, go to Ceroc HQ, play public hide and speak with the people I wouldn't normally see because they don't Salsa..freestyle for an hour or two, get all that extra bouncyness out of system and warm up the muscles before heading to a Salsa Club to dance the night away. Because Ceroc is relatively simple in its footwork, body movement (ie. there isn't one) and if you're dancing with someone who's a good lead.. very little thinking is required. And so for a nice warm up, it is fairly painless. :D

However lately I always seem to get too excited when songs I like come on and I Ceroc myself to death before we even get to the Salsa Club :blush: :rofl:

So yes, thats my vote - Ceroc for the social side of things :clap:

[El Salsero Gringo]

...before heading to a Salsa Club to dance the night away.Don't you get bored with the same one single Salsa track for a whole evening?

[bigdjiver]

A good friend of mine once described Ceroc as the fast food of dancing... :whistle: James Cronin, on TV, described Ceroc as "the McDonalds of dance."

[Anna]

Don't you get bored with the same one single Salsa track for a whole evening?

Fortunately for us living in the land of the long white cloud, they don't play one same single Salsa track all evening :D ...what a shame thats what you people in the UK have to put up with! *sigh* owell :innocent:

[latinlover]

Don't you get bored with the same one single Salsa track for a whole evening?

I know what you mean, and I know it was meant as a joke,but to drag this back into seriousness (sorry I'm always doing that ,aren't I? - incidentally have one of your stickers ready for me tonight at ashtons! )

................................when I started to learn Salsa I felt exactly the same ,but it seemed to me that all salsa dancers can't be mindless morons who can't tell the differnce between one track and the next (winces in anticipation of obvious retorts).
So I have this theory that it only sounded like the same track because I was concentrating on the dancing, and that once I'd got my confidence with the dance then it must be easier to differentiate, and actually listen to the musicality and dance to that.

well, it's nine months on now and I'm just about there,and although I still don't have the fluency I would like, I can at least recognise a good track from a rubbish track. Unfortunately there ARE a lot of rubbish tracks,certainly at my local venue, which may explain the common complaint, but whilst I was learning the techniques I didn't notice HOW rubbish they were!
I now have more sympathy with those MJ ers who seem to dance "through" the music rather than to, or who can dance happily to even the most buttock-clenchingly awful tracks you hear sometimes (no names)- I guess when you're concentrating on the moves the music part kind of gets pushed into the background

And I still believe that Salsa done properly is sexier than ceroc which is why I want to learn it

[Mac]

Ok ... mild musing no. 437.

Being looking at trying to learn to dance .... lots of reasons but had been looking at capoeira, salsa, jazz dance ... all the usual suspects. Then thought, if we can start from the premise that MJ is a composite dance form, then if the people doing it wanted to progress then there would be a whole host of MJers actively perusing other dance forms. BUT, my own experience and conversations would suggest that this is not the case. SO ... taking this logic forward, is the actual dance element of MJ the core thing .. or is it just an excuse to engage in something that is primarily social event? That would explain why the vast majority of dnacers get to a certain level then feel no need to progress.


Ive just started Ballroom Im mostly interested in Latin and this is to help me with style and footwork coordination (Boy do I need that! :blush: ) In order to progress my MJ I know others that have done line dancing for the same reasons. So I guess it comes down to individual motivation. For my part there is no end in sight yet! :D

[Anna]

...when I started to learn Salsa I felt exactly the same ,but it seemed to me that all salsa dancers can't be mindless morons who can't tell the differnce between one track and the next (winces in anticipation of obvious retorts).
So I have this theory that it only sounded like the same track because I was concentrating on the dancing, and that once I'd got my confidence with the dance then it must be easier to differentiate, and actually listen to the musicality and dance to that.

A problem that a lot of people who are either ex-cerocer's, current cerocer's or total newbies have with Salsa is that they don't recognise the different layers in the music.. all they hear is the melody (which admittedly is usually 1 of about 20 Salsa melodies that are consistently in the songs..but not always). And so criticise the songs for all being the same when really, if they worked on their Musicality a little more, they would recognise that every song is clearly different. That's also why a lot of people have trouble with Salsa timing at first.


...I now have more sympathy with those MJ ers who seem to dance "through" the music rather than to, or who can dance happily to even the most buttock-clenchingly awful tracks you hear sometimes (no names)- I guess when you're concentrating on the moves the music part kind of gets pushed into the background

No way, after learning Salsa, Westcoast Swing and even Blues, I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for people who will dance to a song completely across the beat, missing every pause and every change of pace in the music. I might get rocks thrown at me for saying this but frankly, it seems very ignorant to ignore the music like that. In my opinion, you're only a dancer if you actually dance to the music.



...And I still believe that Salsa done properly is sexier than ceroc which is why I want to learn it

:yeah: Right on !! :clap:

[David Bailey]

A problem that a lot of people who are either ex-cerocer's, current cerocer's or total newbies have with Salsa is that they don't recognise the different layers in the music..
Hmmm.... Well, it's a subjective judgement, but I've been listening and dancing to salsa for a while now, and I think the "range" of salsa tracks at a standard salsa club is indeed more limited, or less diverse, than the range at a standard MJ club. There are fewer breaks, and less opportunity for improvisation, at least in my opinion, in most salsa tracks.

So there's much less chance to develop interpretation skills in salsa than in MJ.


And I still believe that Salsa done properly is sexier than ceroc which is why I want to learn it
I used to think that, but now I'm not sure. The "default" salsa is probably sexier than the "default" MJ. But MJ is so broad, it allows more opportunities for things like slow hair-pulling seducers, pauses, wiggles, etc. Again, hmmm...

[Whitebeard]

I used to think that, but now I'm not sure. The "default" salsa is probably sexier than the "default" MJ. But MJ is so broad, it allows more opportunities for things like slow hair-pulling seducers, pauses, wiggles, etc. Again, hmmm...
I'm sure you're right here. We've perhaps been conditioned, even brainwashed, into accepting that "Salsa equals Sexy". But, is there anything in Salsa which cannot also be done in MJ? I would say it is the dancer, not the dance form, who can possess and convey that sensuousness which is sexy without being sleasy.

[Baruch]

I'm sure you're right here. We've perhaps been conditioned, even brainwashed, into accepting that "Salsa equals Sexy". But, is there anything in Salsa which cannot also be done in MJ? I would say it is the dancer, not the dance form, who can possess and convey that sensuousness which is sexy without being sleasy.
I'm not allowed to give you rep until I spread it around a bit, so here's a public :yeah: instead.

[JoC]

A problem that a lot of people who are either ex-cerocer's, current cerocer's or total newbies have with Salsa is that they don't recognise the different layers in the music.. all they hear is the melody I don't see how an ability to 'hear' music of any sort (and it's layers), has anything whatsoever to do with ceroc. :confused:

[MartinHarper]

I don't see how an ability to 'hear' music of any sort (and it's layers), has anything whatsoever to do with ceroc. :confused:

Musical interpretation in modern jive does seem to focus on the melody and on breaks. I wonder - is it different in salsa?

[Anna]

I don't see how an ability to 'hear' music of any sort (and it's layers), has anything whatsoever to do with ceroc. :confused:

It doesn't, I was taking the thread off course :blush: Just saying why (in my experience, and what others have told me from there's) people find some salsa music all the same..


Musical interpretation in modern jive does seem to focus on the melody and on breaks. I wonder - is it different in salsa?

Ah.. this is something a friend of mine who sadly doesn't have a computer knows a lot about.. alright let's have a try..

well first of all, the basic Salsa footwork is made up of an 8 count pattern with a rest or hold on the 4th and 8th beat.. So in your head when dancing Salsa, you will forever hear a 1 2 3.. 5 6 7.. Or if your mind works like that anyway ;) ..

In Salsa, as well as any breaks you might want to catch.. there might be a piece of percussion you can "catch" (I'm speaking from a womans view obviously) as you step forward on 5 by doing a little shimmy or something.. terrible example.. theres pretty much all the same kind of little musical thingies to catch as there is in MJ music.. it's just that Salsa is a little more logical and a lot of the catchables have been written onto e.g the 1 or the 5 so dancers CAN catch and play with them... okay that was a really really bad attempt at an explanation..

Andreas where are you?? Help! :flower:

[Andreas]

I used to think that, but now I'm not sure. The "default" salsa is probably sexier than the "default" MJ. But MJ is so broad, it allows more opportunities for things like slow hair-pulling seducers, pauses, wiggles, etc. Again, hmmm...

:yeah:

I do agree, although, you can do all that in Salsa. :devil: It is just, in my experience, harder to find a follower who stops at breaks in Salsa than in MJ, which I put down to footwork and the feeling of
HAVING to move.



well first of all, the basic Salsa footwork is made up of an 8 count pattern with a rest or hold on the 4th and 8th beat.. So in your head when dancing Salsa, you will forever hear a 1 2 3.. 5 6 7.. Or if your mind works like that anyway ;) ..

In Salsa, as well as any breaks you might want to catch.. there might be a piece of percussion you can "catch" (I'm speaking from a womans view obviously) as you step forward on 5 by doing a little shimmy or something.. terrible example.. theres pretty much all the same kind of little musical thingies to catch as there is in MJ music.. it's just that Salsa is a little more logical and a lot of the catchables have been written onto e.g the 1 or the 5 so dancers CAN catch and play with them... okay that was a really really bad attempt at an explanation..

The art of musical interpretation in Salsa is very similar to that in MJ. However, the many layers of this type of latin music 1) make it more difficult and 2) open up more opportunities. The easiest way to approach it, as Anna already described, is to use one layer of the music for your footwork. This layer is in most cases also responsible for breaks. While in most (?) cases of popular Salsa this is a percussion layer (with Clave), you also find a number of pieces, where you actually have a melody that is stronger and you will naturally utilise that.
Now, a second layer is usually also a percussion layer or a pipe of sorts (pan flute etc.). This is what you want to use to throw in little accents using your hands, feet or general body motion. It enriches the dance with depth rather than 'just motion'. This second layer is also the one that you 'can change freely' because it is an add-on to your dance and not mandatory, whereas the first layer is.
Having said that, you will now think that it is a contradiction talking of 'one' second layer and then of 'changing' it. Correct, I used the term for dancing application, not strictly from a musical point of view as that have become too confusing. Even more so since some instruments only have short sequences in the music.

:flower:

[bigdjiver]

I am waiting for "The ceroc forum" to come up as a subject on "Mastermind":
The thread title was ".... " What was it actually about?

At least I have learned that Salsa really was not for me.