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View Full Version : Do we know what 'GOOD' looks like?



Gus
13th-September-2005, 02:55 PM
{ODA Mode On}

There have been a number of teachers hailed in terms similar to the Second Coming. There have also been others , who have proven their skills beyond reproach, who have been seen as being merely ordinary. The only explanation is that Ceroc Jo Public wouldn't know a good instructor if they battered them over the head with a wet halibut.

AND BEFORE you scream in an apoplectic fit and the outrage of this statement .. consider this. When you started, remember how impressed you were with someone who could actually remember the whole beginners lesson, how good someone looked if they could do a double pretzel etc. The plain truth is that the vast majority of punters know bu**er all about dance yet feel fully justified to sing the praises of Jo Bloggs on stage who probably only has 6 months or so more experience. At what stage does a unter actualy know enough to make a meaningful assessment of how good the instructor is?

Do we need ALL MJ instructors to be fully NVQ approved. Do we need a formal grading of instructors, both for standard and as to what specialties they can teach?
{ODA Mode OFF}

OK ... thats just the opening proposition. I've been a bit unsettled by a range of comments about teachers who I wither know don’t know backside from elbow or who have a superb grasp of dance and how to communicate it ... yet general comments have not met my perception of such. I've discussed my view with teachers who have a lot more experience than myself and here seemed to be a similar feeling (in some cases .. not all). I think that the trend towards using competition success (even in minor competitions) to promote instructors is a worrying trend in part. I'm particulalry concerned about the number of charlatans about ... instructors who either cannot teach anything of worth or who have 'borrowed' thier entire content from better instructors. Just curious ... anyone think this is an issue?

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 02:57 PM
At what stage does a unter actualy know enough to make a meaningful assessment of how good the instructor is?Round about the same point in the evening when they decide whether to come back the next week and hand over another £7.

Anyone else?

LMC
13th-September-2005, 03:06 PM
The only explanation is that Ceroc Jo Public wouldn't know a good instructor if they battered them over the head with a wet halibut.
Since I'm still pretty much in ^^^^ that category, I would be simplistic and stay that a GOOD teacher bothers teaching fundamentals like handhold, frame, tension, safety, courtesy - all too frequently these seem to be treated as optional or in an "oh, by the way...." approach.

Dreadful Scathe
13th-September-2005, 03:13 PM
I would be simplistic and stay that a GOOD teacher bothers teaching fundamentals like handhold, frame, tension, safety, courtesy

Most Ceroc teachers do not teach all this, yet the vast majority of them I'd at least consider "Good". See, "Simplistic" gets you criticised :)

El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?

LMC
13th-September-2005, 03:18 PM
El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?
Commercially, yes :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 03:19 PM
El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head ...Watch it, you, lest I decide to make disparaging remarks about your sausage (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=150577&postcount=9) too.

Gill (Norwich)
13th-September-2005, 03:26 PM
El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?
No not necessarily true, if you have a lack of choice as in some pockets of the country (but maybe that's why they only charge £5.50?) :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 03:28 PM
No not necessarily true, if you have a lack of choice as in some pockets of the country (but maybe that's why they only charge £5.50?) :whistle:Which is consistent with the fact that what is considered 'GOOD' varies according to location.

Gus
13th-September-2005, 03:28 PM
El Cucaracha Bingbongo hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?And if you've been conned into paying for a healer for 12 years ... is the fact that you still go back make it good enough? :rolleyes:

A point of argument is that many dnacers dont know what GOOD is because they either dont know enough about what is being taught or , more likely, they have nothing to compare it to. I remember thinking how good the teacher was when i was in Stoke ... until I saw 'Boy Robin' teaching in Nottingham etc. etc. Another key point, I've taught a fair few dancers who have come through the standard process ... but who have no concept of balance, timing, accents, lead and follow etc ... yet they all sing the praises of their teachers :confused:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 03:32 PM
And if you've been conned into paying for a healer for 12 years ... is the fact that you still go back make it good enough? :rolleyes: Depends on whether you think you've been conned or not. Who's to say what benefits people get from engaging the services of someone to lavish attention on them?
A point of argument is that many dnacers dont know what GOOD is because they either dont know enough about what is being taught or , more likely, they have nothing to compare it to.You could make the same argument about competition judges not having any objective standards to judge to... oh - hang on a minute...

LMC
13th-September-2005, 03:34 PM
Watch your back Gus - someone's gunning for Forum ODA Award :devil:

Gus
13th-September-2005, 03:50 PM
Watch your back Gus - someone's gunning for Forum ODA Award :devil:Nahhhh ... first of all he'd have to make sense ( :rolleyes: ) THEN have to coherently argue opposing sides of the argument ......

bigdjiver
13th-September-2005, 03:55 PM
To look at the question from another angle - I cannot think of a bad Ceroc teacher. They usually all the ones I know usually teach the four moves so that they can be acquired. Sometimes even the best teachers have a bad day, or a particular weakness. There are also a few teachers that I do not enjoy. It is not possible to meet the needs of everybody in the usual disparate class. If a beginner thinks that the teacher is good, then the teacher is good, at least for them, at that level.

Gus
13th-September-2005, 04:00 PM
To look at the question from another angle - I cannot think of a bad Ceroc teacher.A Ceroc teacher for the main teaches a pre-programmed set of moves. It now depends what your defintion of 'bad' is. From your statement is sounds like you are comparing the teacher to the benchmark of how well they meet this role. In that context fair enough. HOWEVER, if you then compare them to a proper dance teacher and start looking at how well they have taught their students lead and follow, balance, how to look good, how to exapnd their range of movement ... then there may well be a different answer.

drathzel
13th-September-2005, 04:44 PM
And are we talking about Looking good on the dance floor or being good on stage.... ie being a good teacher. And can you be one without being the other! :flower:

David Bailey
13th-September-2005, 04:45 PM
The only explanation is that Ceroc Jo Public wouldn't know a good instructor if they battered them over the head with a wet halibut.
I'd think they'd probably know that wasn't a sign of a good instructor.

Other possible explanations:
- different people get different things from different classes at different times
- new teachers always seem more interesting
- some teachers are good for some aspects of dance teaching, and some are good for others

As for judgement of some teachers' ability, boy, I remember the sh*tstorm I landed in last time I even suggested that some teachers might be, err, not superb. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5218)

So :worthy: to you for stirring again :)


The plain truth is that the vast majority of punters know bu**er all about dance yet feel fully justified to sing the praises of Jo Bloggs on stage who probably only has 6 months or so more experience.
I'm going to go all democratic here, and say that most people will be able to judge whether a class was good for them; and that's the only yardstick that matters to them.


I think that the trend towards using competition success (even in minor competitions) to promote instructors is a worrying trend in part.
Surely you're not suggesting that anyone could ever enter a competition except for the love of the dance? :eek: :devil:


To look at the question from another angle - I cannot think of a bad Ceroc teacher.
I can. The excellent (for what it does) CTA course aside, some do slip through the net IMO.

Minnie M
13th-September-2005, 04:55 PM
IMHO It is not what they do (teach) it is the way that they do it. Hence CTA instructors tend to have the edge over the private ones.

Also, tried and tested moves should only be used for beginners and intermediates. I get so cross when being tought a MJ move which is NOT leadable :angry:

PLUS, the best teachers are the most experienced (in teaching that is) as they have learnt from most of their (and the students) mistakes.

David Franklin
13th-September-2005, 05:00 PM
A Ceroc teacher for the main teaches a pre-programmed set of moves. It now depends what your defintion of 'bad' is. From your statement is sounds like you are comparing the teacher to the benchmark of how well they meet this role. In that context fair enough. HOWEVER, if you then compare them to a proper dance teacher and start looking at how well they have taught their students lead and follow, balance, how to look good, how to exapnd their range of movement ... then there may well be a different answer.On the other hand, how many people does the typical "proper" dance teacher get to a level where they enjoy dancing. And what proportion of their students get discouraged and drop out before then?

The greatest positive of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

The greatest negative of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

:wink:

Little Monkey
13th-September-2005, 05:13 PM
The greatest positive of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

The greatest negative of Ceroc is that it gets people to enjoy dancing without worrying about technical detail.

:wink:
:yeah:
Well said.

LM

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 05:15 PM
On the other hand, how many people does the typical "proper" dance teacher get to a level where they enjoy dancing. And what proportion of their students get discouraged and drop out before then?I absolutely agree. Ceroc is a breath of fresh air compared to the ruler-carrying wrist-smacking image of dance instruction. Why? Because they have well trained, consistent teachers.

Gus
13th-September-2005, 05:19 PM
Because they have well trained, consistent teachers.Interesting statement. Care to offer any evidence? :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 05:31 PM
Interesting statement. Care to offer any evidence? :whistle:Sure, if I need to.

Every Ceroc class I've been to has the same format. Every Ceroc class I've been to teaches the same set of beginners moves, using the same methods. Every Ceroc class I've been to teaches the same set of beginners moves, using the same phraseology. Every Ceroc class that I've been to has reached at least a minimum standard of fun to ensure that the people attending enjoy themselves and want to come back.

Every Ceroc teacher goes through the same training process, and passes some kind of test at the end of it. The training process aims to make them consistent in these matters. Given that's its aim, and that it succeeds, I say it was quality training.

Ergo, Ceroc teachers are well trained, and consistent. (I didn't say that all Ceroc teachers were perfect.)

Do you want to give any evidence to the contrary?

(I'll pass on the sardonic whistling smiley - I'm not sure what you meant by it.)

Gus
13th-September-2005, 05:43 PM
Every Ceroc class I've been to has the same format. Every Ceroc class I've been to teaches the same set of beginners moves, using the same methods. Every Ceroc class I've been to teaches the same set of beginners moves, using the same phraseology. Every Ceroc class that I've been to has reached at least a minimum standard of fun to ensure that the people attending enjoy themselves and want to come back.
I can't say that that has been my experience. I've seen a significant range of variation, especially form those who are out of training for more than six months. Like most things in life, the range (IHMO) is from the very good to the not so good.


Every Ceroc teacher goes through the same training process, and passes some kind of test at the end of it. The training process aims to make them consistent in these matters. Given that's its aim, and that it succeeds, I say it was quality training.

Ergo, Ceroc teachers are well trained, and consistent. (I didn't say that all Ceroc teachers were perfect.)

But GOOD at WHAT?? Being a parrot or being a teacher? Thats where the thrust of my query is coming from. I can put 3 CTA teachers together and you will get 3 different experiences. To say someone is good you have to say WHO they are better than (as GOOD can imply that there is someone who is less good) and WHAT they are better at.

I have seen teachers who truly have sucked, paid no attention to the level of the class, not picked up on common mistakes nor engaged the class. This is exacerbated when you go on to workshops when you can't hide behind the scripting and formula. I have seen people teacher a Latin workshop, bas its mainly on a Viktor workshop and yet miss all the subtleties and style points because they simply weren't good! I've seen the same for Blues workshops a number of times. I've taught a workshop myself when I KNEW I was off form, hadn't prepared properly and yet I STILL got perfect marks on the assessment! :tears:

So ... to say all XXX association teachers are GOOD is an indefensible statement (IMHO :devil: ) ... some are betters than others ... but I've still heard no objective way of assessing a teachers worth ..... or as long as there are enough mugs out there to part with their cash ... does anyone care?

David Bailey
13th-September-2005, 05:52 PM
Like most things in life, the range (IHMO) is from the very good to the not so good.
ESG said nothing about "good", he said consistent. And "quality", of course, doesn't imply "high quality", just that there's a process.

Most of ESGs points are unarguable (OK, "unarguable to most people"), as they relate to known facts. For example, we know that Ceroc beginners moves are all taught from exactly the same script. Short of video-ing one person, and showing that exact video at all classes, I can't see how you can get much more consistent than that...


But GOOD at WHAT?? Being a parrot or being a teacher?
Again, "Good" is not "consistent". The strength and weakness of the Bor- err, Ceroc - is the same: consistency.


I've taught a workshop myself when I KNEW I was off form, hadn't prepared properly and yet I STILL got perfect marks on the assessment! :tears:
That's because we all love you :flower:

And you assume, again, that the assessment was judging "goodness", when it's more likely it was judging "consistency".


but I've still heard no objective way of assessing a teachers worth
Maybe because there is none?

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 05:54 PM
But GOOD at WHAT?? Being a parrot or being a teacher?Good at getting people to move their bodies to the music - 'dancing', I think it's called.

I sat a venue last night watching the crowd thinking "yeah, not everyone looks wonderful, not everyone is moving exactly on the beat, and not everyone is doing the moves exactly as they were taught. But everyone is at least having a blast, shaking their stuff, and enjoying themselves, and some are doing it to a very high standard."

I don't know about you, but I think to get a room full of 'unlikely' dancers up on their feet and strutting it, unselfconsciously, is a valuable service to humanity. And achieveing that is what Ceroc teachers are good at.
To say someone is good you have to say WHO they are better than (as GOOD can imply that there is someone who is less good) and WHAT they are better at.I've just said what they're good at - and they're better at doing it than any of the teachers of the other dance styles that I've tried - and I've tried quite a few.

Aleks
13th-September-2005, 07:04 PM
-big snip- ... way of assessing a teachers worth ..... -snip some more-

The best way to assess a teacher's worth is by the standard of his/her pupils upon examination/assessment. However, Ceroc is not set up to teach/assess in this way and this becomes an unquantifiable thing once a teacher is trained (although I am sure there is a requirement for them to update/maintain their training on a regular basis).

As was said right at the start of this thread, for most MJers in most venues this is not even important as they go for the fun of dancing combined with the social aspect.

Should those of us who strive to be members of an elite group dictate the direction and structure of an organisation because it suits our needs, or should it be driven by the needs of the majority?

dance cat
13th-September-2005, 07:12 PM
But GOOD at WHAT?? Being a parrot or being a teacher? Thats where the thrust of my query is coming from. I can put 3 CTA teachers together and you will get 3 different experiences. To say someone is good you have to say WHO they are better than (as GOOD can imply that there is someone who is less good) and WHAT they are better at.

WRONG WRONG WRONG (IMHO)
To say someone is a good teacher is not to compare one against another. To say someone is a good teacher means that they are skilled in getting a learner or group of learners to learn or in the world of professional teachers that they conform to an agreed description of what a good teacher is, based on subject knowledge, how well the learners are learning and their mangement of the learners. If you want to ensure good teaching then do you go down the professional route of constant performance management?? How many dance teachers would want that? How important would it be for the learners? If your comment is about teaching standards then would everyone have to agree a set of standards and turn the CTA into a professional qualification? In the 'real world' of teaching you are judged to be a set standard when you finish your training period, but then you are annually assessed against standards and your teaching judged accordingly. I'm not sure that this is where MJ wants to go. (But I have been known to be very wrong before!!)

tsh
13th-September-2005, 07:39 PM
To look at the question from another angle - I cannot think of a bad Ceroc teacher. They usually all the ones I know usually teach the four moves so that they can be acquired. Sometimes even the best teachers have a bad day, or a particular weakness. There are also a few teachers that I do not enjoy. It is not possible to meet the needs of everybody in the usual disparate class. If a beginner thinks that the teacher is good, then the teacher is good, at least for them, at that level.

I've seen teachers who are unable to comunicate how to dance a move from the intermediate class.

Notice I didn't even say they 'lead' cause from my most recent observation a male teacher didn't appear to be leading their demo. Obviously as a beginner, I didn't notice this, and it didn't seem important - but there are classes I won't generally go to any more because of the standard of 'instruction' I expect from the teacher. I've also left an intermediate class because I got too worked up by the teacher's inability to teach even a fairly trivial intermediate routine.

Sean

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 11:03 PM
Gus,

WHY do you have such a downer on Ceroc? Do they not do anything right in your eyes?

MartinHarper
13th-September-2005, 11:53 PM
I'm going to go all democratic here, and say that most people will be able to judge whether a class was good for them.

I can't talk about "most people", but I'm not sure that I can tell whether a teacher is good for me. My aim from a dance class is (controversially) to learn to dance - but how well can I judge that? I suppose I could look at whether I feel like my dancing has improved, but everyone has bad habits that they're unaware of. For all I know, I might feel my dancing has improved from some teacher, but I've also picked up a couple of bad habits from her that have actually made it worse. Who's going to tell me? (Well, Little Miss Contrary seems forthright enough, but who else? ;-) )

One dance teacher (not MJ) has the attitude that he is there to teach dancing, not to entertain, and his classes are geared that way. That obviously meshes with what I want out of a class, and I rate him highly. However, I've no evidence that his unorthodox approach is actually any good at teaching me to dance. I reckon it is, for various reasons, but I can hardly do a double blind trial to find out.

frodo
13th-September-2005, 11:57 PM
... hit the nail on the head I think - if the punters come back they must consider the teacher good enough to continue to teach them! Is that not good enough?
I find the common Ceroc thing of learning from a follower teacher with a leader demo difficult. While I find it hard and don't learn so well, that doesn't make them a bad teacher.

David Bailey
14th-September-2005, 08:41 AM
My aim from a dance class is (controversially) to learn to dance
You crazy controversial fool, you.

In the end, it all comes down to what you personally feel you get out of a class. No MJ class is compulsory; so we're back to the ESG definition of "they're good if you keep going back and paying them".


One dance teacher (not MJ) has the attitude that he is there to teach dancing, not to entertain, and his classes are geared that way.
To me, entertainment is one of the best ways of teaching - I certainly pay more attention to the witty and charismatic teachers than to the dull-as-sticks ones.

That attitude (his, not yours) strikes me as a bit snooty, but he can probably get away with it in a non-MJ environment; people are probably more focussed on pure-dance-learning than having fun.

Gus
14th-September-2005, 09:05 AM
WRONG WRONG WRONG (IMHO)
I would have thought that as a teacher who is used to dealing with 'difficult' children you could have found a gentler way of 'sharing' my failings with me :tears: :wink:


To say someone is a good teacher is not to compare one against another. To say someone is a good teacher means that they are skilled in getting a learner or group of learners to learn or in the world of professional teachers that they conform to an agreed description of what a good teacher is, based on subject knowledge, how well the learners are learning and their mangement of the learners.Couldnt agree more ... my earlier statements were flawed. Having had time to think it over I think that the GOOD as an absolute statement doesn't address the issue. I think that the teacher should be 'good enough' for the class and the expectations of that class, acceptable quality etc. (you would expect a different standard of teaching at a 'Master Class' as opposed to a standard club night).

As to the competetncy assessment, well the start of this piece was really coming from the view that only LeRoc teachers are NVQ qualified (is this still true?) and I was wondering whethere all MJ instructors should be so qualified. I think that the CTA qualification is very good, but I think you can see 'slippage' in the standard of some teachers over time (though they are still head a shoulders above most other organisations).

Gus
14th-September-2005, 09:11 AM
Gus,

WHY do you have such a downer on Ceroc? Do they not do anything right in your eyes?Its early in the day so I will go against my better judgement and be polite ( :eek: ).
GET A NEW RECORD! Do me a favour and actualy READ what I've written. I rate the CTA and the structure of Ceroc very highly. Despite some personal differences at the time, I will be eternally grateful to James and Janie Cronin for what they achived through Ceroc.

If I make a comment that is not lauding Ceroc with praise its because I think there is room for improvement.
You should have seen the not so polite version :rolleyes:

azande
14th-September-2005, 09:26 AM
Its early in the day so I will go against my better judgement and be polite ( :eek: ).
GET A NEW RECORD! Do me a favour and actualy READ what I've written. I rate the CTA and the structure of Ceroc very highly. Despite some personal differences at the time, I will be eternally grateful to James and Janie Cronin for what they achived through Ceroc.

If I make a comment that is not lauding Ceroc with praise its because I think there is room for improvement.
You should have seen the not so polite version :rolleyes:
Sorry Gus but I agree with ESG. This is the first post where you actually say something positive about Ceroc and the CTA. It's not the fact that you do not laud Ceroc or the CTA, is the fact that (at least from my point of view) you only slag them off.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2005, 09:41 AM
GET A NEW RECORD! Do me a favour and actualy READ what I've written. I rate the CTA...
But GOOD at WHAT?? Being a parrot or being a teacher?
and the structure of Ceroc very highly.Sounds it.
Its early in the day so I will go against my better judgement and be polite...Honestly? I wouldn't bother; I don't appreciate it.

LMC
14th-September-2005, 10:11 AM
*sets up popcorn stand*

Ceroc teachers are good at teaching Ceroc. They are not necessarily good at teaching people to dance - I've learned more about how to dance from watching others (sometimes includes how not to dance) and from feedback from other people than from any Ceroc lesson or workshop.

This is only a problem because there is a significant minority who work on the basis that they are "good" dancers because of 'time served' - the fact that they can't safely do leans/seducers and/or have a death grip and/or have spaghetti arms and/or travel halfway across the hall when spinning don't seem to register as possible improvement needs.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2005, 11:13 AM
*sets up popcorn stand*

Ceroc teachers are good at teaching Ceroc. They are not necessarily good at teaching people to dance - I've learned more about how to dance from watching others (sometimes includes how not to dance) and from feedback from other people than from any Ceroc lesson or workshop.

This is only a problem because there is a significant minority who work on the basis that they are "good" dancers because of 'time served' - the fact that they can't safely do leans/seducers and/or have a death grip and/or have spaghetti arms and/or travel halfway across the hall when spinning don't seem to register as possible improvement needs.It's amazing how far you can get in four short months, isn't it?

The irony is, of course, that of all these people that you've identified - they aren't the ones that find their own lack of skill a problem. It's you.

LMC
14th-September-2005, 11:27 AM
It's amazing how far you can get in four short months, isn't it?

The irony is, of course, that of all these people that you've identified - they aren't the ones that find their own lack of skill a problem. It's you.
Even more ironically - I get just as frustrated at my own lack of skill. Plus, I don't think I'm special and I certainly don't think I have any intrinsic talent (any progress I've made has been through sheer hard work, and obsessive bloody-mindedness).

So given those two things - if I can do it, why can't *anyone*? The answer of course, may well be related to the fact that they don't want to, as they are lacking an obsessive-compulsive personality :rolleyes:

The fun aspect is great - but sometimes there seems to be a bit too much "give yourselves a big round of applause" and not enough "be aware of your limitations" in Ceroc teaching.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2005, 11:35 AM
but sometimes there seems to be a bit too much "give yourselves a big round of applause" and not enough "be aware of your limitations" in Ceroc teaching.Too much for whom? Too much for you, personally? Or too much for the 150-odd people who come back week after week to each class for more? Like I said - it's *your* problem that they don't (want to) match up to your exacting standards, not theirs.

LMC
14th-September-2005, 11:42 AM
Like I said - it's *your* problem that they don't (want to) match up to your exacting standards, not theirs.
Yes it is. But if they behave unsafely or discourteously on the dance floor/with their partner it's not just my problem but that of everyone they dance with.

Gus
14th-September-2005, 11:46 AM
Too much for whom? Too much for you, personally? Or too much for the 150-odd people who come back week after week to each class for more? Like I said - it's *your* problem that they don't (want to) match up to your exacting standards, not theirs.Wasn't aware that LMC 'had a problem' with others dancing aptitude :confused: ... I interpretted what she said as having a desire to progress her own dancing.

The thread was intended to ask the question as to whether it was important/usefull for Teachers (NOT just CTA) to be formally assessed, e.g. NVQ. It was not intended to question Ceroc's approach or teaching methodology ... this has been covered in many other threads. I suppose I was reaaly more concerned about the non-CTA teachers, some of whom (IMHO) offer a substandard product, but their punters accept because they have nothing better to compare it to ... or dont realise what is worng. Its all too easy for a club, say competing with a Ceroc club, to revert to teaching loads of drops and flash moves (its been done :tears: ) ..... the punters think its great but are a nightmare to dance with whereas the teacher who persists in teaching 'properly' is seen as being inferior ... no fair! :sad:

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2005, 11:59 AM
The thread was intended to ask the question as to whether it was important/usefull for Teachers (NOT just CTA) to be formally assessed, e.g. NVQ. ... I suppose I was reaaly more concerned about the non-CTA teachers, some of whom (IMHO) offer a substandard product, but their punters accept because they have nothing better to compare it to ... or dont realise what is worng. Its all too easy for a club, say competing with a Ceroc club, to revert to teaching loads of drops and flash moves (its been done :tears: ) ..... the punters think its great but are a nightmare to dance with whereas the teacher who persists in teaching 'properly' is seen as being inferior ... no fair! :sad:I don't see that having an NVQ, or an ISO:9000 or an IIP certification is really going to be much of a draw to customers: "Coming to Brongo on Wednesday, Gladys? I hear the teacher there has a BTec in silly walks..."

Unless there's regulation of the partner-dance teaching industry (heaven forbid) there's no pressure for any kind of assessment, so there's nothing stopping someone teaching loads of drops and flash moves to the exclusion of anything else - if that's what their punters want.

If the question was would it help if teachers could go on a training course that would improve the quality of their classes - then, obviously, yes, that would be a good thing. One hopes that customers would respond to the better classes; I doubt they'd care about the certificate hanging by the door. Do you know any such courses?

MartinHarper
14th-September-2005, 12:16 PM
...a bit too much "give yourselves a big round of applause"...

Not a fan of
clapping in classes (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4196)?