men spinning

[Damien]

I'd like to be able to do more spins but never feel comfortable knowing when is a good point to put one in or feeling balanced enough at the start of the spin. :confused: I am fine with the lady won't spin move when I get a helping hand from the follower. Also when I do spins which I think are OK - when I get back round to face the lady they always seem a bit surprised which kind of throws me a bit. :confused:

Sometimes if I spin at the same time as the lady I either finish ahead or behind them which sort of upsets the timing for the next move (I do try hard to spin at a speed appropriate to the beat/pace of the music).

I really would like to do more effective spinning. Can anyone help?

[Nick M]

I'd like to be able to do more spins but never feel comfortable knowing when is a good point to put one in?

The easiest point to put in a spin is when you have sent the lady into a free spin. I almost always put a man's spin into a normal catapault, and frequently into a normal wurlitzer or hatchback. It works easily with a catapault - as you bring the lady forward to spin her, you place your right foot behind and to the left of your left, in preparation for what the salsa people call a hook turn, or colombian turn. Then as you send her into the free spin, you are prepared for a rapid spin clockwise, and there will be plenty of time to make the catch at the end. Personally i prefer to spin a little faster than the lady, to be ready for her when she finishes.

Also, when doing a change-places-aka-man-spin, put in a turn and a half

HTH

[MartinHarper]

Nick - when you say you put a spin into a hatchback, does that mean you do a turn and a half?


they always seem a bit surprised

There are lots of guys who never free spin, so it may just be that?


Personally i prefer to spin a little faster than the lady, to be ready for her when she finishes.

Yeah - I normally get taught to start after the lady (lead her first) and finish before her (to be ready to lead). One alternative is to finish a whole count after her - gives her enough time to double spin or wiggle or whatever.

Getting balanced is tough. I think there are some suggested exercises elsewhere on the forum?

[Nick M]

Nick - when you say you put a spin into a hatchback, does that mean you do a turn and a half?

Good question - just tried walking this through in the hall, and I cant work it out, so I'm wondering if i misremembered. If I do it at all, it would have to be a turn-and-a-half, again probably from a hook turn start. Will have a go in the class at Bath, tomorrow, and let you know!

[Andreas]

There are two moves with multiple spins that I like to use:

1) Double Backpass with Half Nelson at the end (3 turns; 2 at double speed, 1/2Nelson at single)

2) Double reverse turn (clockwise turn under your own hand)

Both move fit in reasonably well because you don't need a lot of time to wind youself up for sufficient momentum. Hence it does not break the flow. In particular #2 is smooth as :D

[El Salsero Gringo]

Suggestion: if you haven't already tried it, bring your hands up to chest level, one flat on the back of the other and elbows out to the side.

As you go into the spin you probably already have your arms out a bit. Pull them in to this position and you reduce your moment of inertia which will accelerate you into your spin.

[TA Guy]

Can't help but agree with this. The catapult in the first move I ever did a spin too. Very natural and (relatively) easy to spin out of the move. But I spin anti-clockwise, it just seems easier to spin in the direction I am applying 'leading' to turn the lady. That might just be me, I am not a 'spinner' by nature.

But, would say the man-spin is a tricky one to spin too because it involved more than one full spin, and you need to be travelling. Very difficult to get right, and in ten years of dancing, seen it done well about twice (but, then again, I don't go to competitions :))


The easiest point to put in a spin is when you have sent the lady into a free spin. I almost always put a man's spin into a normal catapault, and frequently into a normal wurlitzer or hatchback. It works easily with a catapault - as you bring the lady forward to spin her, you place your right foot behind and to the left of your left, in preparation for what the salsa people call a hook turn, or colombian turn. Then as you send her into the free spin, you are prepared for a rapid spin clockwise, and there will be plenty of time to make the catch at the end. Personally i prefer to spin a little faster than the lady, to be ready for her when she finishes.

Also, when doing a change-places-aka-man-spin, put in a turn and a half

HTH

[David Bailey]

2) Double reverse turn (clockwise turn under your own hand)

Both move fit in reasonably well because you don't need a lot of time to wind youself up for sufficient momentum. Hence it does not break the flow. In particular #2 is smooth as :D
Ooh, yes, I like this - and you can lead it with most people, it's nice isn't it :grin:

[DavidY]

But, would say the man-spin is a tricky one to spin too because it involved more than one full spin, and you need to be travelling. Very difficult to get right, and in ten years of dancing, seen it done well about twice (but, then again, I don't go to competitions :))The first time I tried a man-spin with extra turn was at a workshop. A beginners' workshop :eek: - the teacher suggested it as a variation.

I was there as a taxi dancer making up the numbers and I found it a bit tricky so not sure what the actual beginners made of it, but it's a move I do quite often now (which doesn't mean I do it well, of course). You only turn 1-and-a-half times so not a proper double spin.

On advantage is that the follower doesn't need to do anything different to an ordinary man-spin - so you can lead it with most followers.

[JoC]

Also when I do spins which I think are OK - when I get back round to face the lady they always seem a bit surprised which kind of throws me a bit. :confused: I probably often look surprised, but am also impressed when a man spins. (Some might say I'm too easily impressed). Keep up the good work. ;)

[LMC]

I probably often look surprised, but am also impressed when a man spins. (Some might say I'm too easily impressed). Keep up the good work. ;)
:yeah:

Especially if they spin twice or more 'cos I can't

[ducasi]

Why should men want to spin when we've got women to do that for us? :whistle:

They're usually so much better than us too! :blush:

[Andreas]

Why should men want to spin when we've got women to do that for us? :whistle:

Because otherwise we get bored.


They're usually so much better than us too! :blush:

And we cannot live with that: bad for ego. :rofl:

[Andreas]

Ooh, yes, I like this - and you can lead it with most people, it's nice isn't it :grin:
:yeah: :yeah:

I have done a couple of limbo variations of the move but generally it is easy to lead it, in particular after a lady's turn, when they stand still :rofl:

[ducasi]

Because otherwise we get bored. I'd never admit to getting bored while admiring a woman finish off a spectacular triple spin. (At least, not on a public forum! :wink: )

[Andreas]

I'd never admit to getting bored while admiring a woman finish off a spectacular triple spin. (At least, not on a public forum! :wink: )

I have never had a problem pointing out the obvious. :devil: :rofl:

People who know me also know that I do move a lot and like to move. There is no way I'd enjoy watching somebody else have all the fun :yum:

[MartinHarper]

Why should men want to spin when we've got women to do that for us?

Because it's fun?

[JoC]

Double reverse turn (clockwise turn under your own hand)I always wonder, is that tricky for chaps keeping your own hand steady while you turn under it? I'm always particularly impressed by those sort of turns because it strikes me it could be difficult to control.

(Of course you have to say yes it's very tricky, to maintain the awe of followers, I understand this will be the anwer but I ask anyway. :) )

[Andreas]

I always wonder, is that tricky for chaps keeping your own hand steady while you turn under it? I'm always particularly impressed by those sort of turns because it strikes me it could be difficult to control.

(Of course you have to say yes it's very tricky, to maintain the awe of followers, I understand this will be the anwer but I ask anyway. :) )

I would not say it is 'tricky'. Not at all, it actually is immensely difficult and only the REAL masters can get through it w/o falling over :rofl:

It is alright. A single reverse turn is actually not too difficult, for as long as you stay balanced. A double is obviously harder, with the risk of bending back and consequently getting off balance. But I have to say that the all so little support that the floppy hand of the follower offers is a great help :)

Generally I'd say, once you get the hang of reverse turns they are actually easier than normal turns.

[Nick M]

Will have a go in the class at Bath, tomorrow, and let you know!

I was wrong about the hatchback - false memory - I dont put a spin in there. Catapaults I was spinning either way - spinning clockwise allows you to change hands behind your back ready to lead the lady into a basket. And the lady spin - about half the time i seemd to be putting my own spin into that one.

However the one that got most comment was the turn-and-a-half manspin. It's easy to lead, and you do it while the lady is stood there watching.

[MartinHarper]

I was wrong about the hatchback - false memory - I dont put a spin in there.

I tried it anyway, and it wasn't bad. Easier than that evil 1.5 turn man-spin, anyway. :shudder:

[Trish]

There are two moves with multiple spins that I like to use:

1) Double Backpass with Half Nelson at the end (3 turns; 2 at double speed, 1/2Nelson at single)

2) Double reverse turn (clockwise turn under your own hand)

Both move fit in reasonably well because you don't need a lot of time to wind youself up for sufficient momentum. Hence it does not break the flow. In particular #2 is smooth as :D

Could you explain to me in very very simple terms what these two moves look like. I have probably done them, I may have even lead them, but I can't picture them and they sound like fun!

:clap: :hug: to all the spinning men out there!

[Andreas]

1) Double Backpass with Half Nelson at the end (3 turns; 2 at double speed, 1/2Nelson at single)

Backpass is a counter-clockwise turn of the man where he passes the lady's hand behind his back (L->R->L).
1/2Nelson is a counter-clockwise turn of the guy in handshake hold. He turns, brings right hand up to small of his back and ducks under to be able to complete the turn.


2) Double reverse turn (clockwise turn under your own hand)

Can be either L/R or R/R hand hold, it doesn't matter. Guy does a hook turn in clockwise direction under his (and her) raised hand. Hook turn means he faces in the other direction. So bum leads :rofl:

[Gadget]

I'd like to be able to do more spins but never feel comfortable knowing when is a good point to put one in or feeling balanced enough at the start of the spin...
I always think that "barrel roll" type spins are fairly easy to time right:
Double handed hold, take the right hand infront and to the left while raising the left. Follow it as the lady doesand you turn in shoulder to shoulder, then back to back, and continue to face.

From there, it's a simple matter of timing to lead her into the same move, but join hands above the head and only start yourself turning when her back is to you.

Then extend the timing again so that her coming back to face is the start of your double handed turn under to un-cross your hands.

You've done it all with two hands - now you should be able to do it with one.

These are more 'turns' than spins; but where a turn exists, you simply have to release the hand and it becomes a spin.

Anywhere that the lady's arm is round you or yours round her, you can turn out to un-wind - or if it's not, you can turn in to insert a turn.


Any "freespin" (pushspin, ceroc-spin, shoulder spin...) that requires you to lead a push can be used to spin yourself: The lady does not require to be pushed: the lead is a guide. Both of you are providing the same tension in the connection - normally you would brace yourself against the push to lead the freespin, but think on you pushing away rather than leading the lady into a spin; don't try to lead her with a push and push yourself - you will double the force needed against her and throw you both off balance.
Try to mirror her timing and try not to rush it; you're both dancing to the same music and following the same beat - trust each other that you will be there.


As for the technicalities rather than the practicalities, balance is the most important thing IMHO. And awareness of direction - don't do a turn and a bit when you only wanted to do one. Turn, then step. Try not to make the step a necessary part of the turn so that you won't fall over {:blush: guilty}. Don't just practice spinning one way on one foot: you've got two feet and can spin either way on either foot.
Cheat to start with; cross your feet, then un-wind to have your feet crossed in the opposite way. Untill I could spin, this was the way I faked it all the time.
Cheat for multiple spins; scoot round or do half-turns on either foot - no-one's looking at your feet, you turn lots and it looks almost as impressive.

Hope some of this helps. :D

[David Bailey]

2) Double reverse turn (clockwise turn under your own hand)

Can be either L/R or R/R hand hold, it doesn't matter. Guy does a hook turn in clockwise direction under his (and her) raised hand. Hook turn means he faces in the other direction. So bum leads :rofl:
This works much better for me with R/R hold for some reason - I think it's my current Fave Move. The great bit is the second turn, because you can kind of play with the timing to slow it down a little - looks very very smooth.

(That's assuming you don't have an anticipatory follower who starts to turn on her own while you turn or something ... :rolleyes: )

[Andreas]

(That's assuming you don't have an anticipatory follower who starts to turn on her own while you turn or something ... :rolleyes: )

If you lead it from a return (whichever hand) then usually the follower is too busy with putting herself in a nice pose that your turn is done by the time they realise you did actually move :D

[David Bailey]

If you lead it from a return (whichever hand) then usually the follower is too busy with putting herself in a nice pose that your turn is done by the time they realise you did actually move :D
Oh sure, and that's the way I usually do it - but there's always someone who wants to move away, turn herself, or something.

The only disadvantage of that second turn is that you're delicately balanced, and a tug by the lady on your arm at that point can pull you off balance - in a sense you're becoming a follower for a second.

It's a bit like the comb duck move (don't ask me for proper names!) - if the lady moves away from the comb whilst you're trying to duck under her arm, there's not much you can do to stop her, but it spoils the move. Again with that move, it's best done after a return I think.

Those are both instances where IMO the follower is at fault if it goes wrong in that way, maybe that's why I like them :whistle:

[Gadget]

It's a bit like the comb duck move (don't ask me for proper names!) - if the lady moves away from the comb whilst you're trying to duck under her arm, there's not much you can do to stop her, but it spoils the move. Again with that move, it's best done after a return I think
:rolleyes: as are most combs :wink:
Solution: don't go immediatly into the duck; pause a beat and keep the follower's hand latched, then duck under. It only goes wrong when you try to do it too quickly.
If it's a follower that escapes from combs rapidly, make it a close comb first (use a hand behind their back to keep them from running away), then duck under. This has the added advantage that you can use this contact to go into the next move.

{spooky, but I just re-discovered that move last week}

Oh, and as for doing the double turn without the follower pulling you off balance; you have to lead them to stay put and they have to know that you are doing a spin. If you do them while she isn't watching/aware of them, then how is she to know you want to do another? Normally a high hand equates to turning under it; if you don't give her some other signal as well, then that's what she will try to do.

[MartinHarper]

Why should men want to spin when we've got women to do that for us? They're usually so much better than us too!

Appearances can be slightly deceiving on that point. Followers typically get much more time in which to spin, whereas a leader needs to be finishing ahead of the beat in order to lead the next movement early enough.

I still like following for my spinning practice. Practicing spins on my own can feel a bit too much like "work", though it's certainly valuable.

[spindr]

Appearances can be slightly deceiving on that point. Followers typically get much more time in which to spin, whereas a leader needs to be finishing ahead of the beat in order to lead the next movement early enough.
Well, of course leaders can both "self-prep" and "cheat the turn" by using their incredible powers of ESP to work out that they will be spinning in the future, without having to be led :)

SpinDr

[TA Guy]

Appearances can be slightly deceiving on that point. Followers typically get much more time in which to spin, whereas a leader needs to be finishing ahead of the beat in order to lead the next movement early enough.


Not only that, normally we're kind enough to at least give them some momentum, a little drag of the fingers, a swipe of the arm. When I spin, does the lady ever help me that way? Nooooooooooo. :)

[LMC]

That would be backleading and therefore Evil.

:innocent:

[Chef]

Not only that, normally we're kind enough to at least give them some momentum, a little drag of the fingers, a swipe of the arm. When I spin, does the lady ever help me that way? Nooooooooooo. :)

Followers are just not telepathic enough to pick up that you are just about to go into a spin and, on the whole, the lady giving the guy a push is unhelpful for the guy because they temd to look at our size and give so much force that it feels like they are trying to launch us into orbit.

You really don't need a great deal of energy to perform a spin and most guys when they are starting (me included) whizz their arms about like they are trying to throw a discus. In practice you only need the energy of your moving foot (the one that is not going to be in contact with the ground) closing to your standing foot to privide more than enough energy to produce a spin. This can be illustrated by seeing that somone can have their hands in their pockets (and therefore unable to generate rotation) and still be able to do a clean spin without all the winding up of arms.

A much more useful thing to practice (thanks Amir and Nina once again for these little nuggets) is to practice the act of stepping forward onto the foot that you would spin on (while not putting the free foot onto the floor) with just the right amount of momentum that you neither fail to reach your balance point (by putting in too little energy) or fall forward past your balance point (by putting in too much). Once you can get this right and achieve enough on balance "hang time" your efforts to spin will be much easier.

It leads to a lower sense of panic if you are not actually falling off balance during your spin which results either in a messy mid spin abort or at worst falling flat on the floor. Much better to break the problem down into achiveable chunks. Start by being able to arrive on, and hold the required balance point before you try to add the rotational element.

When you do start to add the rotational element start slowly by only trying to do a quarter turn then build up. When you are starting to learn to spin you will find that using massive amount of rotational energy will perterbe that delicate balance that you have been working on. Trying for less rotation, but with better control will give you faster results overall.

Have fun.

[LMC]

What Chef said :yeah:

As someone who can follow and lead, I reckon that it hurts much more when a leader (no matter what their weight and size) yanks you on the "catch" if they are unbalanced than it does when an unbalanced follower does the same.

So leaders, please make sure you can spin reasonably well "on your own" before inflicting it on your followers - followers have less choice than you whether they spin or not. And (same as I recommend to followers) don't even think about trying multiple spins until you can spin once on the spot without losing your balance.

[TA Guy]

That would be backleading and therefore Evil.

:innocent:

I was told it was sabotage and therefore Good.

:innocent:

[LMC]

Only 25-40% of the time apparently (the gospel according to Franck, who isn't a King, he's a God). So I'll amend my previous position to "Mostly Evil".

can't wait to try sending a lead into a spin :devil: - AND I know exactly how I can work that hijack :D