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LMC
11th-September-2005, 01:20 PM
I did do a search on footwork - which came up with about 400 results, so of course we need another thread :rolleyes: - sorry...

Seriously, most of what I picked up from search results seemed to be on specific moves or questions related to different dance styles/switching between dance styles. What I'm after is an idiot's guide (in words of one syllable or less, I'm blonde remember) on simple techniques to 'naturally' improve/add interest to footwork. Links to relevant threads appreciated, thanks (there are so many I'm confused :sick: )

As background, a well-known forum member (OK, I'll name and shame ESG as he's threatened negative rep to anyone who doesn't name names :D ) complimented me recently on improvement in my frame/tension the day after my lesson with the lovely DavidB ( :nice: ) then extremely reasonably and correctly said "now, about your footwork..." :sad: At the time I was :what: , hang on a sec, still assimilating lead and follow (I still am now of course, but feel that I'm less 'held back' by rubbish frame than I was). In fact, I'm reasonably convinced that I've got to the point where footwork (lack thereof) is now the main thing holding me back and needs developing in combination with continuing to work on my following.

I think I'm usually on the beat, but that's about it. The style workshop a couple of weeks ago helped - but I know I bounce on some steps still :tears:. I'm still in a state of shock this morning that I managed to reasonably effortlessly follow some WCS moves led by a great dancer last night. So in some ways, footwork is happening (and hopefully improving) naturally.

ESG (again) recommended throwing in the odd triple step/cha cha cha/something different to ring the changes between the usual ceroc beat step. Made sense to me, but the trouble is, I look and feel VERY odd trying to do that (and it's probably very trying for my partner at the time too).

I'm impatient - what else can I do to improve? How can I get rid of 'bounce'? What 'feedback' questions should I be asking of my partners/teachers? What is other people's experience?

Thanks :flower:

JoC
11th-September-2005, 01:51 PM
What I'm after is an idiot's guide (in words of one syllable or less, I'm blonde remember) on simple techniques to 'naturally' improve/add interest to footwork.
*snip*
ESG (again) recommended throwing in the odd triple step/cha cha cha/something different to ring the changes between the usual ceroc beat step. Made sense to me, but the trouble is, I look and feel VERY odd trying to do that (and it's probably very trying for my partner at the time too).
A technical dancing question - yipeee!!!

Triple steps are easy to practise on your own, I recommend prancing around the house to any old cerocable tunes, I don't think there are many tunes you can't triple step all the way through (I find it hard not to triple step while I'm dancing sometimes now so you can definitely train your legs into the habit, gets tricky when the music gets very fast though...). Also easy to practise whilst dancing with leads who tend to lead fairly basic moves in the main, gives you time to mess about with your feet.

To improve my footwork I've picked on one thing at a time... first triple steps, then I worked on rondes during first moves, cross steps during the arm-jive (still get a bit wobbly there) and have now started throwing little kicks in when I'm doing the arm-jive cross-steps. Am building up to trying a ball change kick thingy outside the privacy of my own home next...

My advice would be to pick one little bit of footwork you like the look of and concentrate on just that one thing until it starts coming together, making the most of dancing with leads who favour beginner moves. I think you have to be prepared to have your footwork blatantly go to pot sometimes while you're practising. I guess this is the equivalent, for ladies, of men trying out new leads (except they have to try out new leads and footwork).

El Salsero Gringo
11th-September-2005, 02:21 PM
ESG (again) recommended throwing in the odd triple step/cha cha cha/something different to ring the changes between the usual ceroc beat step. Made sense to me, but the trouble is, I look and feel VERY odd trying to do that (and it's probably very trying for my partner at the time too).It wasn't just "the odd cha cha" that I thought you'd like - try missing beats - delaying steps by half a beat - freezing your feet - all sorts of things. It might feel odd, but it won't look worse than someone who *always* steps once per beat, regardless of the rhythms in the music.
I'm impatient - what else can I do to improve? Dance around the living room on your own, to some Ceroc-y music. It's impossible to do the MJ-march (stepping on each beat) on your own; your brain will invent more interesting things to do.

Eventually you'll turn in to Nina (of Nigel and Nina) who can do the most amazing musical interpretations in her dance without throwing off the lead at all.

LMC
11th-September-2005, 02:32 PM
It wasn't just "the odd cha cha" that I thought you'd like - try missing beats - delaying steps by half a beat - freezing your feet - all sorts of things. It might feel odd, but it won't look worse than someone who *always* steps once per beat, regardless of the rhythms in the music.Dance around the living room on your own, to some Ceroc-y music.
My head was too full at the time to remember all that bit sorry :blush: - but it looks familiar, so some of it must have sunk into my subconscious. I'm sure I've been 'missing' beats or delaying steps on occasion over the last couple of weeks, but I only really noticed I was doing it last night - particularly on breaks of course. Unfortunately, it felt all wrong because I was throwing out the lead - particularly since, as Jo said, it's easier to practise 'new' footworky stuff with people who mainly do beginner moves - who are usually beginners and therefore don't always hit the breaks.


It's impossible to do the MJ-march (stepping on each beat) on your own; your brain will invent more interesting things to do.
True, it's called muggle dancing innit? :whistle: - actually, I never used to be much good at that either. I'll keep taking the tablets (and practising).


Eventually you'll turn in to Nina (of Nigel and Nina) who can do the most amazing musical interpretations in her dance without throwing off the lead at all.
:what: - hope we recognise each other in our next lifetimes so you can let me know whether I've succeeded. But thanks for the vote of confidence :nice: (non-gratuitous but still annoying :hug: smiley )

El Salsero Gringo
11th-September-2005, 02:39 PM
Unfortunately, it felt all wrong because I was throwing out the lead - particularly since, as Jo said, it's easier to practise 'new' footworky stuff with people who mainly do beginner moves - who are usually beginners and therefore don't always hit the breaks.It should be possible to feel in the lead an indication of the footwork too. I had one partner last night who was 'listening' so hard that loads of footwork-y stuff worked like a dream.

JoC
11th-September-2005, 02:45 PM
Dance around the living room on your own, to some Ceroc-y music. It's impossible to do the MJ-march (stepping on each beat) on your own; your brain will invent more interesting things to do.Not sure if it's ceroc-y (half of it's kinda fast) but may I recommend 'Dancin' from Xanadu for inspiring 'interpretation' whilst dancing at home? (or is it just me that goes for that kind of thing :rofl: ).

( :D :wink: )

JoC
11th-September-2005, 02:54 PM
It should be possible to feel in the lead an indication of the footwork too. I had one partner last night who was 'listening' so hard that loads of footwork-y stuff worked like a dream.Isn't it great when you just click like that? I had a couple of wonderful 'shared interpretation' moments last weekend, one of them included a shimmy thing I have no idea where came from. Footwork following sometimes just happens I think with a great lead. Not sure if it's relevant but I find verbal instructions tend to mess up my footwork.

(Hey nobody's come on this thead yet shouting about there being no footwork in ceroc!)

Lynn
11th-September-2005, 03:08 PM
It wasn't just "the odd cha cha" that I thought you'd like - try missing beats - delaying steps by half a beat - freezing your feet - all sorts of things. It might feel odd, but it won't look worse than someone who *always* steps once per beat, regardless of the rhythms in the music.Dance around the living room on your own, to some Ceroc-y music. It's impossible to do the MJ-march (stepping on each beat) on your own; your brain will invent more interesting things to do.Useful advice.

My footwork often just 'happens' - I'm not consciously thinking about it - if I do think about it I realise I am doing something with my feet to some aspect of the music (while still following the lead....ok - most of the time :whistle: ) Some footwork needs to be a conscious decision - eg a ronde, esp on a crowded floor. And some I can't help - esp in music with lots of breaks.

But for that to happen there needs to be some footwork in there somewhere to 'come out' like that. Then again I was doing triple steps way before I had ever learnt them - I must have picked them up by a combination of observation and good leads. Apart from that I find learning and practising footwork from other dance styles can be useful.

I've come to the conclusion that in the 'basic step' free world of MJ footwork usually doesn't come from the dance itself - it comes from either following the music or the lead. A good frame and following skills means you can be led in footwork (even some footwork you haven't been taught) and we have the freedom to use footwork to interpret the music. This is one of the things that makes each dance with different partners to different songs unique. :clap:

MartinHarper
11th-September-2005, 06:33 PM
Triple steps are easy to practise on your own, I recommend prancing around the house to any old cerocable tunes

Nod.
If you have any desire to dance to swing music, prance along to some of those too. Swung triple steps have a different feel to straight cha-cha-chas. Learning line dances/strolls at weekenders seems to help.
I'm trying to practice the MJ march, and finding that hard enough.

Lou
11th-September-2005, 07:54 PM
I'm trying to practice the MJ march, and finding that hard enough.Have I taught you you nothing, young Paduan?

Firstly, it's less of an "MJ march", more like "Cerocâ„¢ March". :whistle: My much beloved Bristol footwork automatically allows the follower to take syncopated steps (and that's one of John Eastman's valid arguments as to why Bristol Footwork is fab!).

But to go back to LMC's original question about how to do interesting footwork. Find yourself a partner who you feel comfortable mucking about with & explain you just want to try something a bit different. Listen to the music. Pick a tune with some interesting rhythms (I tend to like Latiny ones, but Swing will probably work equally well), then let your feet dance to the percussion & see what happens.

Just throwing in a cha-cha-cha or a tripplestep feels odd to me, UNLESS there's something in the music that calls for it. However, for songs like "Dance the Night Away" (sorry, folks), the chorus just calls out for tripples (IMO).

Another easy way to play with it is to try slowing down your turns sometimes. Instead of just spinning, slow down & take a couple of beats to step around. Or add the occasional Ronde. (Very Australian, but it changes the timing slightly & makes for interesting style).

And, of course, this is all stuff you can do as a follower, without needing it to be led. After a while, you'll also start noticing some Leaders' footwork & then it's fun to try to match or work with it.

Did I mention I like footwork? :whistle:

David Bailey
11th-September-2005, 08:15 PM
{ stuff }
Oh God...


Did I mention I like footwork? :whistle:
No, but please, tell us more about it.

Especially the first move, I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on the footwork in that, and it seems like a really exciting discussion to have. Especially the differences between Ceroc and LeRoc footwork, that could be interesting.

Footwork is, you know, optional. It's the way you move your feet to the music, and should flow naturally from the dancing. Hell, it's even optional in salsa, why should it matter so much in MJ?

And to make up for my Lou-mockery:


Just throwing in a cha-cha-cha or a tripplestep feels odd to me, UNLESS there's something in the music that calls for it.
:yeah:
I'd totally agree with this, and expand it to say that, to me, throwing in any gratuitous footwork is weird - if it doesn't go with the music, don't do it.

By all means, learn footwork, perhaps by doing other dance styles - but it it doesn't flow, don't use it. And don't stress if you "don't do footwork".

El Salsero Gringo
11th-September-2005, 08:15 PM
Firstly, it's less of an "MJ march", more like "Cerocâ„¢ March". :whistle: My much beloved Bristol footwork automatically allows the follower to take syncopated steps (and that's one of John Eastman's valid arguments as to why Bristol Footwork is fab!).All right then, I'll be the one to ask.


What's Bristol footwork?

Lou
11th-September-2005, 08:26 PM
Oh God...


No, but please, tell us more about it.

...

:na:

David Bailey
11th-September-2005, 08:35 PM
What's Bristol footwork?
Great - that's it, go on, encourage him.

You utter, utter, utter, utter, utter ....

Clive Long
11th-September-2005, 09:04 PM
<< snip >>
Especially the first move, I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on the footwork in that, and it seems like a really exciting discussion to have. Especially the differences between Ceroc and LeRoc footwork, that could be interesting.
<< snip >>

As I don't do irony, I'll accept the challenge at face value :) - aren't you all pleased?

Please note - this isn't meant to be "contrary" just for show

For months (really) I have been agonizing the first move, step back on the left, idea. I have always been a step back on the right kinda guy.

Recently I came to accept that stepping back on the left has some merit in that it keeps one facing one's partner (maybe of dubious benefit to her)

Then recently I went to a Ceroc(TM) class

What did the teacher teach? First Move. Which foot stepped back on? Not a mention - but it definitely was the right (i.e. not left)

Footwork? Pah!

Clive

p.s. although when I trod on Bex's opened-toed sandal tootsies I sure she would have been grateful if I had taken "Footwork 101"

JoC
11th-September-2005, 09:13 PM
to me, throwing in any gratuitous footwork is weird - if it doesn't go with the music, don't do it.How about cutting the learners some slack??? You're such a hard task master! (But that's your right and I respect that of course :grin: .)

David Bailey
11th-September-2005, 09:33 PM
How about cutting the learners some slack???
I've no problems with anyone learning anything they want to to improve their dancing, of course. But, I dunno, there are so many other things to learn, simply learning footwork in isolation is like a leader learning 500 moves - it's not a bad thing, but it's probably not as important as a lot of the other stuff.

Although I could be just jealous of all those people moving their feet in weird and wonderful ways, of course.


You're such a hard task master! (But that's your right and I respect that of course :grin: .)
You've got a definite thing about this, don't you?


As I don't do irony, I'll accept the challenge at face value :) - aren't you all pleased?
Fine, both my dance partners are contrary now. :sad:


Please note - this isn't meant to be "contrary" just for show
Uh-huh. I'd reply to this, but I'm losing the will to post already. Oh well, only 25 minutes until "Lost"...

JoC
11th-September-2005, 09:50 PM
You've got a definite thing about this, don't you?The master thing or the footwork?

If it's the footwork I guess what it comes down to is I don't want to spoil a dance with someone by practising, but at the same time I do want to try and start adding a few little fancy bits sometimes because I enjoy seeing other people do them (I know, it's primarily about feel not look) and it also feels kinda satisfying when it comes together, even better when it becomes natural. I don't want to be paranoid about whether my idiotic feet goings on and little experiments are detracting from my partners enjoyment of our dance so I hope for a little tolerance, and perhaps even amusement as long as I don't go over the top. :flower:

(Though I can see it might get irritating if it became a dominating factor in a dance, especially if it wasn't working.)

MartinHarper
12th-September-2005, 12:01 AM
To me, throwing in any gratuitous footwork is weird - if it doesn't go with the music, don't do it.

If I march-march-march-march, it probably doesn't go with the music, unless they're playing the theme from Monty Python or Dambusters.
If I step randomly, simply when I need to step in order to avoid falling over, it probably doesn't go with the music, unless I'm dancing to experimental jazz or white noise.
If I throw in gratuitous triple steps, then it probably doesn't go to the music. However, it's no worse than the other unmusical alternatives, so I don't see that there's a problem.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems easier for leaders - when we do random foot stuff it doesn't throw our partners off so much.

Andreas
12th-September-2005, 12:51 AM
If I throw in gratuitous triple steps, then it probably doesn't go to the music. However, it's no worse than the other unmusical alternatives, so I don't see that there's a problem.

You may argue that it is a good way to practice them by throwing them in randomly. While I agree that it needs practice I disagree with the randomness of this. We all know (?) that it is more difficult to break bad habits than it is to learn from scratch. If you want to do footwork you should RIGHT FROM THE START make sure it fits to the music. If you feel this is asked too much when dancing with a partner then nobody stops you from practicing at hopme. ESG has mentioned it earlier: practice in the kitchen, in the lounge.

I used to go to night clubs and boogie all night alone just to practice footwork for a number of dance styles and when people approached me because I 'looked so lonely' then this was more off-putting than helping me out of a social misery :D

To expect to be able to solely practice footwork witha partner is unfair towards the other person. The majority of the work CAN be and SHOULD be done alone. And when you do that you will also find plenty of time to make it fit to the music because you don't have to take another person into account.


I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems easier for leaders - when we do random foot stuff it doesn't throw our partners off so much.

In Jive, yes. In Salsa or other dances with set footwork, no. As DJ mentioned further up, you can even omit fottwork in Salsa and I occasionally do that to shift emphasis. Many girls struggle with that because they rely on the guy's footwork :really:

Anna
12th-September-2005, 01:21 AM
In Jive, yes. In Salsa or other dances with set footwork, no. As DJ mentioned further up, you can even omit fottwork in Salsa and I occasionally do that to shift emphasis. Many girls struggle with that because they rely on the guy's footwork :really:

It's true! If I can feel the guy is doing something/weird different with his timing or footwork, I can't keep doing the regular basic.. it gives me this zombie feeling like MUST.. FOLLOW ..MAN :what:

(That was my zombie face btw :D )

Lou
12th-September-2005, 07:31 AM
To expect to be able to solely practice footwork witha partner is unfair towards the other person. The majority of the work CAN be and SHOULD be done alone. And when you do that you will also find plenty of time to make it fit to the music because you don't have to take another person into account.
I disagree. And I think you guys are making far too much of this simple issue.

IMO, there is only a limited amount of practice that LMC could find valuable whilst dancing alone. I could see it would be useful for getting the timing right, for instance, however, in terms of positioning, weight distribution, etc., it's far easier for a follower to experiment whilst practicing with a helpful leader. JoC's already advocated trying footwork out on basic moves, and I've agreed & suggested LMC find a willing partner who won't mind being practiced on. ;) Or do you chaps see a problem with this approach?

JoC
12th-September-2005, 08:16 AM
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems easier for leaders - when we do random foot stuff it doesn't throw our partners off so much.I used to get quite put off my stride when more advanced partners did fancy footwork because I'd try to follow and there was no way it was happening, so I'd end up with tangled feet and the flow of the dance would be spoiled (and it was down to me). Wonderful piece of advice given by Franck at one point was 'ignore my feet, just follow the lead' (or words to that effect). Worked a treat. :) You definitely need to go at your own pace when it comes to picking up footwork I think.

David Bailey
12th-September-2005, 08:31 AM
As DJ mentioned further up, you can even omit fottwork in Salsa and I occasionally do that to shift emphasis. Many girls struggle with that because they rely on the guy's footwork :really:
Heh, yes. It's revenge for all those times the women decide to do a 32-beat shine on us without clearly breaking out of it :)


I disagree. And I think you guys are making far too much of this simple issue.
Lou, you're telling us we're making too much out of a footwork issue? My world has now officially collapsed.


IMO, there is only a limited amount of practice that LMC could find valuable whilst dancing alone. I could see it would be useful for getting the timing right, for instance, however, in terms of positioning, weight distribution, etc.,
In turn, I disagree. For example, when I started salsa I spent literally hours and hours practising salsa footwork in my bedroom to salsa CDs (before I knew it was optional :) ), simply trying to get the rhythm.

And the factors you mention, to me, are pretty much all the important ones for footwork. It may well be different for follower footwork, but I still think there's a lot of footwork value to be gained in sole practice and in trying other dance styles.


it's far easier for a follower to experiment whilst practicing with a helpful leader. JoC's already advocated trying footwork out on basic moves, and I've agreed & suggested LMC find a willing partner who won't mind being practiced on. ;) Or do you chaps see a problem with this approach?
To me, this sounds more like trying out specific shines than footwork - and shines are Evil Things, of course - but then I'm often confused as to what people mean by footwork.

Andreas
12th-September-2005, 08:54 AM
Heh, yes. It's revenge for all those times the women decide to do a 32-beat shine on us without clearly breaking out of it :)

:rofl: Yeah, although, if soomebody does that to me I top it with 64 beats. I can't stand it if they expect you to stand around for half a song while they play (with themselves so to speak). It only happened once and my act cured the girl instantly.



In turn, I disagree. For example, when I started salsa I spent literally hours and hours practising salsa footwork in my bedroom to salsa CDs (before I knew it was optional :) ), simply trying to get the rhythm.

You make this sound like a thiing of the past! Have you found a life by now? :D I still am leaping around in my flat and try to make myself fall over my feet to practice the best recoveries :rofl: Mind you, after I stopped for a while I noticed that I started to forget some of the shines, which was good motivation to pick it up again.

Lou
12th-September-2005, 08:56 AM
To me, this sounds more like trying out specific shines than footwork - and shines are Evil Things, of course - but then I'm often confused as to what people mean by footwork.I'm not a salsa person, so I'm not sure what Shines actually are. I believe them to be the bits where a couple break apart & do some fancy dancing. Is that right? The only time I ever do them is when hands get too slippy & I accidentally break away from my partner & just dance about on my own for a bit.

Anyway, that's not what I was trying to describe. And not what I thought LMC was asking about. I thought she was asking about what footwork she can add to her dancing, whilst still maintaining contact with her partner, in normal modern jive.

So all I've suggested is that she tries playing around with her footwork, whilst dancing with a willing and friendly partner (not shining), doing nice basic moves so that she doesn't need to think about anything else too much. :D

Oh yeah - and footwork isn't that important. Particularlly since Friday night when Sherif was leading this bizzarre "heel, toe, tap" syncopated thing, totally out of the blue. Now that I could've done with some previous practice of. :rolleyes: Bloody teachers....

Andreas
12th-September-2005, 08:57 AM
it's far easier for a follower to experiment whilst practicing with a helpful leader.

totally agree. That is what I have walls and chairs in my place. they haven't got any other purpose ;) And yes, I do practice follower's footwork :yum:

LMC
12th-September-2005, 09:33 AM
Hmmmmm, it seems that:

- I shouldn't be thinking about what my feet are doing
- I should be thinking about what my feet are doing
- I should practise on my own
- It's (sometimes) easier to practise with a partner
- I should do something more interesting with my feet than the regular one step per count
- I shouldn't do anything with my feet except the one step per count until I can get rid of the bounce ( :tears: )

:sick:

Seriously, some useful advice & interesting ideas on here and via PM, plenty more to think about, thanks all :) :flower:

Tessalicious
12th-September-2005, 09:44 AM
Hmmmmm, it seems that:

- I shouldn't be thinking about what my feet are doing
- I should be thinking about what my feet are doing
- I should practise on my own
- It's (sometimes) easier to practise with a partner
- I should do something more interesting with my feet than the regular one step per count
- I shouldn't do anything with my feet except the one step per count until I can get rid of the bounce ( :tears: )

:sick:

Seriously, some useful advice & interesting ideas on here and via PM, plenty more to think about, thanks all :) :flower:Sounds about right for any set of conclusions reached on pretty much any thread in this forum :rolleyes:

Seriously, LMC, next time you dance with me, try out any fancy footwork or other ideas you like - I'll try to keep up. It takes a woman to be a man that can cope with new stuff :wink:

Oh and grats on 1000 posts. :cheers:

stewart38
12th-September-2005, 09:44 AM
Oh God...


No, but please, tell us more about it.

Especially the first move, I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on the footwork in that, and it seems like a really exciting discussion to have. Especially the differences between Ceroc and LeRoc footwork, that could be interesting.

Footwork is, you know, optional. It's the way you move your feet to the music, and should flow naturally from the dancing. Hell, it's even optional in salsa, why should it matter so much in MJ?

And to make up for my Lou-mockery:


:yeah:
I'd totally agree with this, and expand it to say that, to me, throwing in any gratuitous footwork is weird - if it doesn't go with the music, don't do it.

By all means, learn footwork, perhaps by doing other dance styles - but it it doesn't flow, don't use it. And don't stress if you "don't do footwork".

:yeah:

Why did i take up ceroc back in the dark ages because 'there was no foot work in ceroc' :clap:

TiggsTours
12th-September-2005, 11:04 AM
First of all I'd say "RELAX!!!" Don't Panic!

The really great thing about Modern Jive is that, you can put your own style into it, be that a latiny style, a tango style, ballroom, swing, funky etc. its entirely up to you! Nobody should try to tell you what style to put into it, you'll discover your own. Try experimenting, what sort of music do you like dancing to the most? That's a huge help in deciding how you want your style to progress, try learning a new style of dance, then inject some of that into your MJ.

Dancing around at home (as someone suggested) is a great help! Go clubbing, if you fancy it! When I first started MJ I forgot what it was like to dance on your own, after I'd learnt how to dance properly, I had to learn how to "dance" all over again, and that increased my style considerably!

But, I'd still go back to what I said initially, RELAX!!! It will come, naturally in its own time, but it won't happen while your trying so desperately hard to make it happen!

JoC
12th-September-2005, 11:05 AM
- It's (sometimes) easier to practise with a partner
And you know who to make sure you do practise with. :devil:

David Bailey
12th-September-2005, 11:07 AM
I'm not a salsa person, so I'm not sure what Shines actually are. I believe them to be the bits where a couple break apart & do some fancy dancing. Is that right?
Pretty much - see the salsamafia site (http://www.salsamafia.com/index.php?Load=Salsa_Bitches.html) for a bitch about shines, so good I could have written it meself :)

marty_baby
12th-September-2005, 11:49 AM
Here is a question guys.....


Whats the difference between triple steps and ChaChaCha??


Is the General timing:

Triple steps:
step - TripleStep - step - TripleStep - step - TripleStep.....


ChaChaCha
step - step - ChaChaCha - step - step - ChaChaCha

TiggsTours
12th-September-2005, 11:58 AM
Here is a question guys.....


Whats the difference between triple steps and ChaChaCha??


Is the General timing:

Triple steps:
step - TripleStep - step - TripleStep - step - TripleStep.....


ChaChaCha
step - step - ChaChaCha - step - step - ChaChaCha
Ah, but that is only in the world of latin, the triple step is far wider reaching than that!

See Lindy:

Step step, triple, triple or Step step, triple, step step, triple, depending on whether its 6 beat or 8 beat, and in fast lindy, you'd miss out the triple and use a hold instead anyway.


The chachacha, is the triple step that is used in Cha Cha, and the term is often applied to other forms of latin dance. In many styles the triple can also be referred to as the kick ball change.

At the end of the day, a triple step is exactly what it says it is, it is 3 steps on 2 beats, be that left right left, or right left right.

JoC
12th-September-2005, 12:06 PM
Is the General timing:

Triple steps:
step - TripleStep - step - TripleStep - step - TripleStep.....
The way I'm thinking, there's no 'step' just tri-ple-step-pause tri-ple-step-pause, so as TiggsTours says, LRL-RLR-LRL-RLR etc unless I've got it all wrong, quite possible.

DavidY
12th-September-2005, 12:14 PM
Here is a question guys.....


Whats the difference between triple steps and ChaChaCha??I'm trying to work out timings in my head so could be very wrong. But in Ballroom/Latin Jive and Cha-Cha, there's a slight difference in timing. If you do a "triple step" in (non-Modern) Jive, the "tri-" is longer than the "-ple" (although they're all pretty quick).

Whereas all "Cha"s in a Cha-Cha are the same length.

I don't know whether the triple step thing applies to other dance styles?

TiggsTours
12th-September-2005, 12:23 PM
I'm trying to work out timings in my head so could be very wrong. But in Ballroom/Latin Jive and Cha-Cha, there's a slight difference in timing. If you do a "triple step" in (non-Modern) Jive, the "tri-" is longer than the "-ple" (although they're all pretty quick).

Whereas all "Cha"s in a Cha-Cha are the same length.

I don't know whether the triple step thing applies to other dance styles?

God, that all sounds FAR too complicated!

stewart38
12th-September-2005, 12:24 PM
The way I'm thinking, there's no 'step' just tri-ple-step-pause tri-ple-step-pause, so as TiggsTours says, LRL-RLR-LRL-RLR etc unless I've got it all wrong, quite possible.

One Bananna, Two Bananna, Three Bananna, Four.....
the chorus from the banana splits theme (tra la la...) or is this going of key ??

Maybe that wrong as well :sick:

TiggsTours
12th-September-2005, 12:31 PM
One Bananna, Two Bananna, Three Bananna, Four.....
the chorus from the banana splits theme (tra la la...) or is this going of key ??

Maybe that wrong as well :sick:
A little off on a tangerine, yes, but puts me in a good frame of mind for a way of thinking of it:

Left (ooh, don't trip on that banana skin (right)) left,
Right (or that one! (left)) right,

That, of course, a double triple.

JoC
12th-September-2005, 12:33 PM
One Bananna, Two Bananna, Three Bananna, Four.....
the chorus from the banana splits theme (tra la la...) or is this going of key ??
Onebana(with silent final na), twobana(na), threebana(na) four...flamenco style clap of the hands above the head in place of the silent 'na' optional (at home anyway).

Icey
12th-September-2005, 12:37 PM
I used to get quite put off my stride when more advanced partners did fancy footwork because I'd try to follow and there was no way it was happening, so I'd end up with tangled feet and the flow of the dance would be spoiled (and it was down to me). Wonderful piece of advice given by Franck at one point was 'ignore my feet, just follow the lead' (or words to that effect). Worked a treat. :) You definitely need to go at your own pace when it comes to picking up footwork I think.

Totally agree, being a beginner trying to follow someone who is much better than me and is throwing fancy steps in is confusing and sometimes very disheartening.

A little while ago I was told "ignore your feet - they know what to do" it worked a treat, I can now concentrate on enjoying the dance rather than getting all het up over getting the footwork right or not.

I've found that with a good lead some footwork just comes naturally and I've found myself doing steps I simply didn't know I could do :eek:

David Bailey
12th-September-2005, 12:47 PM
A little while ago I was told "ignore your feet - they know what to do" it worked a treat, I can now concentrate on enjoying the dance rather than getting all het up over getting the footwork right or not.
:yeah:
Exactly, and :clap: for putting it so clearly and succinctly.

ChrisA
12th-September-2005, 01:02 PM
I've found that with a good lead some footwork just comes naturally and I've found myself doing steps I simply didn't know I could do :eek:

If a follower has a nice connection it's much easier to lead specific footwork, since it allows the lead to control where the follower's weight is.

This in turn allows the lead to control which foot she uses - if you have your weight on a foot, you can't move it, so any step has to be on the other one.

Conversely, of course, a non-existent connection makes it virtually impossible to lead any shift in weight at all.

This is why I tend to take the view that for a relatively new follower, getting to the point where the connection is reliably good without having to think about it all the time, is more important than worrying about adding interesting footwork.

TiggsTours
12th-September-2005, 01:27 PM
If a follower has a nice connection it's much easier to lead specific footwork, since it allows the lead to control where the follower's weight is.

This in turn allows the lead to control which foot she uses - if you have your weight on a foot, you can't move it, so any step has to be on the other one.

Conversely, of course, a non-existent connection makes it virtually impossible to lead any shift in weight at all.

This is why I tend to take the view that for a relatively new follower, getting to the point where the connection is reliably good without having to think about it all the time, is more important than worrying about adding interesting footwork.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Here here! Absolutely Chris! Don't run before you can walk!

Have some rep back. :grin: :hug:

Evgeni
12th-September-2005, 01:57 PM
I'm trying to work out timings in my head so could be very wrong. But in Ballroom/Latin Jive and Cha-Cha, there's a slight difference in timing. If you do a "triple step" in (non-Modern) Jive, the "tri-" is longer than the "-ple" (although they're all pretty quick).

Whereas all "Cha"s in a Cha-Cha are the same length.

I don't know whether the triple step thing applies to other dance styles?
Correct - In Jive the beat values are three quarter, a quarter, one. (One a Two as opposed to One and two).
Cha Cha can be even, although it can also use the same beat values to get the foot speed up for the last two steps.

stewart38
12th-September-2005, 02:00 PM
Correct - In Jive the beat values are three quarter, a quarter, one. (One a Two as opposed to One and two).
Cha Cha can be even, although it can also use the same beat values to get the foot speed up for the last two steps.

Welcome to the forum Evgeni .

Thats sounds so impressive its got to be right :sick:

Evgeni
12th-September-2005, 02:03 PM
Welcome to the forum Evgeni .

Thats sounds so impressive its got to be right :sick:

Hi and thank for the welcome. Sorry to sound like a dance nerd. They normally teach this in most latin intro and intermediate classes - Thats where I got this from.

TiggsTours
12th-September-2005, 02:03 PM
Welcome to the forum Evgeni .

Thats sounds so impressive its got to be right :sick:
First rule in presentations, say anything with enough conviction, and anyone will believe you! Even those who "deep down" know you're wrong will begin to doubt their own conviction!

Tessalicious
12th-September-2005, 02:14 PM
Correct - In Jive the beat values are three quarter, a quarter, one. (One a Two as opposed to One and two).
Cha Cha can be even, although it can also use the same beat values to get the foot speed up for the last two steps.Hi welcome to the forum!

Hate to be really technical and embellish on your statement slightly - but in swing (ie Lindy etc) and therefore I think in Ballroom Jive (although I could be wrong), the beat is divided up into thirds not quarters, so the 'tri-' is twice the length of the '-ple' steps. Eg.:

One--and--a----Two--and--a---Three-and--a----Four-and--a

Tri---------ple--Step-----------Tri----------ple--Step

etc

The reason for this is that the dance is done to swing music, in which notes of half-beat value are played to the rhythm above, otherwise known as 'swinging the beat', so to dance to it properly the step works best in the same rhythm as the music.

I don't think in general this applies to West Coast Swing, just to be even more confusing - since this is actually not generally danced to swing music! Also, since neither of the teachers I have attended lessons by have ever made the '3 & 4' sound swung (but then again that could be my mistake).

Hope that a) helps and b) makes some kind of sense to anyone :o

David Franklin
12th-September-2005, 02:29 PM
Hi welcome to the forum!

Hate to be really technical and embellish on your statement slightly - but in swing (ie WC, Lindy etc) and therefore I think in Ballroom Jive (although I could be wrong), the beat is divided up into thirds not quarters, so the 'tri-' is twice the length of the '-ple' steps.My understanding agrees with Evgeni in that Ballroom Jive is officially 3/4, 1/4 - though a lot of people question whether you can really step to 1/4 beat with 180+bpm music. WCS tends to be taught 1-and-a-2, as you say, but there's certainly debate as to whether this is always optimum, particularly as much WCS music doesn't actually swing (c.f. Funky WCS v.s. classic WCS).

Icey
12th-September-2005, 02:36 PM
If a follower has a nice connection it's much easier to lead specific footwork, since it allows the lead to control where the follower's weight is.

This in turn allows the lead to control which foot she uses - if you have your weight on a foot, you can't move it, so any step has to be on the other one.

Conversely, of course, a non-existent connection makes it virtually impossible to lead any shift in weight at all.

This is why I tend to take the view that for a relatively new follower, getting to the point where the connection is reliably good without having to think about it all the time, is more important than worrying about adding interesting footwork.

Oooohhhhhhh!!! *light goes on* That'll be why sometimes I can do it and sometimes I can't

MartinHarper
12th-September-2005, 03:29 PM
... in swing (ie Lindy etc), the beat is divided up into thirds not quarters...

In the music, the middle "-ple-" can be anywhere between about 2/3 and about 3/4, depending on tempo, feel, and how many pints the drummer has had. It probably shouldn't be an exact fraction like 2/3 or 3/4, because that's insufficiently cool.

Tessalicious
12th-September-2005, 03:32 PM
My understanding agrees with Evgeni in that Ballroom Jive is officially 3/4, 1/4 - though a lot of people question whether you can really step to 1/4 beat with 180+bpm music. WCS tends to be taught 1-and-a-2, as you say, but there's certainly debate as to whether this is always optimum, particularly as much WCS music doesn't actually swing (c.f. Funky WCS v.s. classic WCS).Fair enough, thanks for correcting me. I had a feeling that this could be wrong for Ballroom Jive, but having never had lessons in it I don't know the technical side.

Curious to know for certain though, if there are experts hiding in the wings, whether Lindy or other swing dances (except WCS which I think disagrees with itself) are really 'supposed' to be danced with 3/4, 1/4 timing or in true swing rhythm?

David Franklin
12th-September-2005, 04:04 PM
Fair enough, thanks for correcting me. I had a feeling that this could be wrong for Ballroom Jive, but having never had lessons in it I don't know the technical side.

Curious to know for certain though, if there are experts hiding in the wings, whether Lindy or other swing dances (except WCS which I think disagrees with itself) are really 'supposed' to be danced with 3/4, 1/4 timing or in true swing rhythm?Again, not speaking from great authority, but my understanding is that the "street" swing dances should be danced in swing rhythm, (unless the music doesn't actually swing!). It's just Ballroom Jive that has different timing. It's one of the many reasons WCS/Lindy dances hate ballroom...

El Salsero Gringo
12th-September-2005, 05:59 PM
This is why I tend to take the view that for a relatively new follower, getting to the point where the connection is reliably good without having to think about it all the time, is more important than worrying about adding interesting footwork.Dancing with someone who relentlessly, inescapably, inevitably steps on every single beat is dull, dull, dull. I appreciate the need for technical perfection in the connection, but not to try to interpret the music for six months while someone sorts out their following is a bit much to ask, I feel.

You don't have to dance round the living room and make notes of what you did with your feet so you can reproduce it on a dance floor and trip up your partner, but it might just get anyone in the habit of listening to more of the content of the music.

ChrisA
12th-September-2005, 06:17 PM
Dancing with someone who relentlessly, inescapably, inevitably steps on every single beat is dull, dull, dull. I appreciate the need for technical perfection in the connection, but not to try to interpret the music for six months while someone sorts out their following is a bit much to ask, I feel.

You don't have to dance round the living room and make notes of what you did with your feet so you can reproduce it on a dance floor and trip up your partner, but it might just get anyone in the habit of listening to more of the content of the music.
It's not a question of relentlessly, inescapably, inevitably "either/or".

I have never said it should be exclusively stepping on the count at the exclusion of all else for as long as it takes to develop a perfect connection - none of us has that, or ever will.

So I think it's slightly facile to try and make it as black and white as this.

The problem is that it's in the formative first few months of dancing that many people - guys included (although their problems tend to be different ones) - get their bad habits ingrained, by which time the situation is irretrievable without a colossal and systematic effort. I've been trying to get rid of a bad habit now for about a year and a half, since Amir first pointed it out to me, and I reckon I'm about 15% of the way towards curing it, it's so entrenched :tears: .

As I say,



getting to the point where the connection is reliably good without having to think about it all the time, is more important than worrying about adding interesting footwork.

Not "important to the exclusion of all else", just more important.

But I would be prepared to bet a reasonable amount of money that LMC would derive greater pleasure from a dance that has a lovely connected "feel" to it for most if not all of its three minutes, than (at this stage) any amount of skippety footwork, no matter how well in tune with the music it is.

David Franklin
12th-September-2005, 06:28 PM
If a follower has a nice connection it's much easier to lead specific footwork, since it allows the lead to control where the follower's weight is.

This in turn allows the lead to control which foot she uses - if you have your weight on a foot, you can't move it, so any step has to be on the other one.

Conversely, of course, a non-existent connection makes it virtually impossible to lead any shift in weight at all.

This is why I tend to take the view that for a relatively new follower, getting to the point where the connection is reliably good without having to think about it all the time, is more important than worrying about adding interesting footwork.I agree with this. And although in a sense it might be a 'cop-out' in terms of lead/following footwork, I also think if either side decides to fancify their footwork, they should do so in a way that doesn't completely muck things up for the person doing standard MJ footwork. Both these points are put very well in the lead/follow FAQ (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/wcs_connection.html):

Mario gives two pieces of simple but good advice. First, when you do a syncopation, try and keep the position of your body relative to your partner's the same as it would be if you did the move with basic footwork. The fact that you're doing something fancy with your feet must NOT make it harder for your partner to dance with you. Second, THE RESISTANCE OF THE LEAD OR FOLLOW IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN DOING SYNCOPATIONS. You MUST keep that resistance there whatever else you are doing. Practice keeping your arm tension constant as you do various flashy things with your feet.

Lou
12th-September-2005, 06:36 PM
the person doing standard MJ footwork.
And that is? :whistle:

(Sorry DavidJames. I tried not to, but I couldn't help but reply to this.)

MartinHarper
12th-September-2005, 07:14 PM
Dancing with someone who relentlessly, inescapably, inevitably steps on every single beat is dull, dull, dull.

It's also harder to lead them into stuff like "First Move Triple Steps". Habits again.

JoC
12th-September-2005, 07:22 PM
LMC if you spontaneously break into a dance routine from Showboat or Top Hat whilst attached to a partner who thought he was leading an arm jive or a first move tonight we'll all be very very very disappointed in you.

(I'll also :worthy: you.)

David Bailey
12th-September-2005, 08:01 PM
LMC if you spontaneously break into a dance routine from Showboat or Top Hat whilst attached to a partner who thought he was leading an arm jive or a first move tonight we'll all be very very very disappointed in you.
:confused: you missed a word, you meant "if you don't"... :)


(Sorry DavidJames. I tried not to, but I couldn't help but reply to this.)
I'm hereby barring you from "Forum repXXX" signature-itude as your punishment.

JoC
12th-September-2005, 08:17 PM
:confused: you missed a word, you meant "if you don't"... :)*No, those who want to learn footwork before they're supposed to must be scolded*

(You offering up an arm jive to LMC to play with then? See I knew you were a lovely tolerant person really. :flower: , let us know which routine it was...)

Mr Cool
12th-September-2005, 08:23 PM
A little while ago I was told "ignore your feet - they know what to do" it worked a treat, I can now concentrate on enjoying the dance rather than getting all het up over getting the footwork right or not.

I've found that with a good lead some footwork just comes naturally and I've found myself doing steps I simply didn't know I could do :eek:[/QUOTE]

There is so much rubbish taught about footwork, Lindy hop and Wcs teach triple steps but if you watch the very best dancers of these styles they just dance to the music. If you concentrate soley on doing triple steps musical interpretation suffers. In my opinion the main role of triple steps is simply to get dancers to move their feet once this becomes natural. Feel the music move with it the footwork will develop on its own.
Choreoghraphed footwork is a bore and not real dancing and whats the point if it cannot be led.
For the record does anybody take ballroom jive footwork seriously? :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Evgeni
12th-September-2005, 09:37 PM
A little while ago I was told "ignore your feet - they know what to do" it worked a treat, I can now concentrate on enjoying the dance rather than getting all het up over getting the footwork right or not.

I've found that with a good lead some footwork just comes naturally and I've found myself doing steps I simply didn't know I could do :eek

There is so much rubbish taught about footwork, Lindy hop and Wcs teach triple steps but if you watch the very best dancers of these styles they just dance to the music. If you concentrate soley on doing triple steps musical interpretation suffers. In my opinion the main role of triple steps is simply to get dancers to move their feet once this becomes natural. Feel the music move with it the footwork will develop on its own.
Choreoghraphed footwork is a bore and not real dancing and whats the point if it cannot be led.
For the record does anybody take ballroom jive footwork seriously? :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:
Unless you are competing or doing your medal exams I guess it wouldn't matter. In latin though there is still a definite lead that is happening despite every step being choreographed.

Andreas
12th-September-2005, 10:41 PM
For the record does anybody take ballroom jive footwork seriously? :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Yup. Mostly 6 beat and some 8 beat but always footwork ;)

LMC
13th-September-2005, 12:07 AM
:what: @ you lot - I wanted an IDIOT'S guide!!!

But thank you all for the input.

And


But I would be prepared to bet a reasonable amount of money that LMC would derive greater pleasure from a dance that has a lovely connected "feel" to it for most if not all of its three minutes, than (at this stage) any amount of skippety footwork, no matter how well in tune with the music it is.
:yeah:

But as MartinHarper pointed out, it is hard to lead some moves with people who can't dance on anything other than "one beat, one step".

Oh, and since the planet was destroyed by the Vogons before this footwork question could be answered, I've developed an alternative solution to save another ten million years: get someone sympathetic to dance a fast track with you, throw stuff in like triple steps and try not to fall over with shock that you've actually got sufficient connection to follow 'em :D (still can't do that dam' Columbian tho' :blush: ) Thanks for making me do that (you know who you are), just what I needed :nice: :flower: :hug:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 08:46 AM
get someone sympathetic to dance a fast track with you, throw stuff in like triple steps and try not to fall over with shock that you've actually got sufficient connection to follow 'em :D Thanks for making me do that (you know who you are), just what I needed:Like I said, negative rep for you unless you name and shame the guilty party - we need to have them up before the Court of Footwork and make sure it never happens again.

David Bailey
13th-September-2005, 08:59 AM
Like I said, negative rep for you unless you name and shame the guilty party - we need to have them up before the Court of Footwork and make sure it never happens again.
:confused: Thought that was you, actually? Are you going to negative rep yourself? :devil:

Or was it me? I'm easily confused, everyone seems to look like me, apparently...

ChrisA
13th-September-2005, 09:16 AM
But as MartinHarper pointed out, it is hard to lead some moves with people who can't dance on anything other than "one beat, one step".

Indeed... but once you can dance one step per count without adding random skips and shuffles as so many do to maintain their balance, and still maintain connection, it then becomes possible to do the same step patterns, but faster or slower.

And then lots of possibilities open up, because it's then possible to slow moves (or parts of them) down or speed them up, add extra turns or assisted spins, according to the music. But trying to do any of that without a connection becomes a farce.

stewart38
13th-September-2005, 09:29 AM
A little while ago I was told "ignore your feet - they know what to do" it worked a treat, I can now concentrate on enjoying the dance rather than getting all het up over getting the footwork right or not.

I've found that with a good lead some footwork just comes naturally and I've found myself doing steps I simply didn't know I could do :eek:

There is so much rubbish taught about footwork, Lindy hop and Wcs teach triple steps but if you watch the very best dancers of these styles they just dance to the music. If you concentrate soley on doing triple steps musical interpretation suffers. In my opinion the main role of triple steps is simply to get dancers to move their feet once this becomes natural. Feel the music move with it the footwork will develop on its own.
Choreoghraphed footwork is a bore and not real dancing and whats the point if it cannot be led.
For the record does anybody take ballroom jive footwork seriously? :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:[/QUOTE]


:yeah:

LMC
13th-September-2005, 09:34 AM
Like I said, negative rep for you unless you name and shame the guilty party - we need to have them up before the Court of Footwork and make sure it never happens again.

OK then, ESG, you are hereby charged with being nice, found guilty as charged and a recommendation made that you be removed from your prime position as Forum Sarcastic Git because you're just really nice (like it sez on the green pips...).


But trying to do any of that without a connection becomes a farce.
Agreed - but if led, fancy footwork stuff (not necessarily triple steps, just anything different) seems to be a good way of 'checking' that the connection is adequate. Intuitively, the connection should not differ with footwork? (correct me if I'm wrong)...

Sorting all this out (plus masses of PM comments) in my head still...

timbp
13th-September-2005, 01:07 PM
Indeed... but once you can dance one step per count without adding random skips and shuffles as so many do to maintain their balance, and still maintain connection, it then becomes possible to do the same step patterns, but faster or slower.

And then lots of possibilities open up, because it's then possible to slow moves (or parts of them) down or speed them up, add extra turns or assisted spins, according to the music. But trying to do any of that without a connection becomes a farce.
This makes sense to me, and I want to experiment with the possibilities.

I'm in Sydney, Australia. Here they initially teach us beginners' footwork. That was simple enough, except they expected me to do it in time with the music.
Then we get taught Intermediate footwork -- and I got lost, and confused, and complained on the ceroc forum about it. But I eventually could do it (even in time with the music).
Now I don't think about footwork. I step when and where it suits -- my default pattern matches the Sydney Intermediate footwork, but I break from that for particular moves, or because I think the line is better if I use the other foot, or because I'm tired and can't be bothered stepping.

And I read this forum and get the impression that UK dancers are taught from the beginning to step when and where it suits. ANd I wonder if the 12-14 months it took me to get to that stage really make me a better dancer than the person who learns to do that in class one.

And I'm not sure if I could lead (and get a partner to follow) a first move triple step. Maybe I'll try tomorrow night. Any tips welcome -- assume I know the move, and my partner is used to simple stepping on the beat: do I just go into the triple step and hope she keeps up?

Tim

Zebra Woman
13th-September-2005, 04:33 PM
Indeed... but once you can dance one step per count without adding random skips and shuffles as so many do to maintain their balance, and still maintain connection, it then becomes possible to do the same step patterns, but faster or slower.

And then lots of possibilities open up, because it's then possible to slow moves (or parts of them) down or speed them up, add extra turns or assisted spins, according to the music. But trying to do any of that without a connection becomes a farce.

I agree with Chris, the connection is the most important part .

When I was a beginner I found with a good connection I could be led to do any number of different footwork patterns with a great lead. Admittedly it fell apart with a weaker lead. But I feel sure that my improvement at doing the foot work with weaker leads came from improving my frame and connection to the man not by concentrating on my feet themselves. Sometimes this has meant befriending the lead and offering hints on what makes his lead clearer for me to follow. :innocent:

IMO improving the frame and connection is the quickest route to the :drool: dances.

There are loads of ways to test the connection you have, stopping moves speeding them up, selling a dummy.

One of my favourite tests at the beginning was being led:

First move then:
normal finish (prefer Amir's style), or
Synchopated walks, or
Log walks, or
Columbian Amir's style, or
Columbian Ceroc style or
(The ultimate: Something Amazing and synchopated made up on the spot and LED by Andy Mc G)

If a man can lead any of those things without any verbal warning and they flow beautifully then I would consider worrying about footwork.

Just my humble opinion

ZW :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 05:40 PM
You're all completely missing the point.

The reason I mentioned it to NewKid in the first place was because a fortnight ago I spent an entire dance with her desperately trying to lead some kind of syncopation in the beat, and all she was doing was dropping the connection in order to keep stepping on the beat when I blatantly wasn't.

You have to be open to be open and receptive to the concept that it's OK to do something different with your feet and allow yourself to feel it in the lead. At least by talking about it, and trying it out - alone or with a partner - once can appreciate that there's something there that can be followed.

Last night I tried again, and it was a zillion times better. So I'm glad I said something. What anyone else wants to make of it is up to them.

LMC
13th-September-2005, 09:28 PM
Lots of very nice stuff :blush:
Are you sure you're not sickening for something?

Or have you been abducted by aliens?

(thanks :flower: )

MartinHarper
14th-September-2005, 01:31 AM
I wonder if the 12-14 months it took me to get to that stage really make me a better dancer

Well, you can march on the beat whilst dancing, and I can't, so that's one thing. It might give you a more solid basis to work from: I'm getting occasional "Lindy moments" in my MJ, and I'm sure part of that is because I slip into Lindy footwork. That's part of why I want to learn to march - to try to make a solid distinction between Ceroc, JazzJive, and Lindy.


I'm not sure if I could lead (...) a first move triple step. (...) Any tips welcome -- assume I know the move, and my partner is used to simple stepping on the beat: do I just go into the triple step and hope she keeps up?

This was my main itch on moving from JazzJive to Ceroc. The challenge was distinguishing between the "First Move Triple Steps with a Change of Places" (In JazzJive, "Jockey") and the "Eskimo", which is much more common.

The FMTS takes 6 beats and goes: rock-step, tri-ple-step, tri-ple-step, repeat.
The Eskimo takes 4 beats and goes: rock-step, step step, repeat.

Firstly, and most importantly, get a rough idea of how to lead footwork, in general. Learning how to do it in practice is very difficult, but at least get an idea of the general theory and a few exercises to try out on unsuspecting followers. This requires a teacher and several hours class time. After that, trial and error should sort you out. Here's some stuff that worked for me, bearing in mind that I don't teach, and I'm just some random intermediate with too much time on his hands:

* In both moves, look the way that you are moving - first backwards over your left shoulder, then backwards over your right shoulder. This provides a visual lead, and the turn of your head from left to right provides part of a body lead. It's also good for floorcraft, and allegedly looks stylish.
* As an educated step, it requires the girl to know how to do a triple step, and that to be fairly natural. If she is on her right foot, and being pushed to the right, it has to be more natural for her to do a quick "left-right" than to fall over.
* Don't overlead by bouncing her right hand (your left) like a madman, contrary to what some folks teach. The left hand lead should mostly follow naturally from the movement of your own feet. A loud left hand becomes a signal, not a lead, which is fine to start with, but isn't the end goal.
* Lotsa guys don't lead the fourth step of the Eskimo (rock-step, step step), so some women compensate by taking it anyway, regardless of what is lead. Be prepared to get out of her way and backfollow.
* Initially, don't stress too much about the difference between rock-step, triple step, triple step and rock-step, hold, hold. The difference can be lead, but it's harder. Save that for later.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2005, 11:27 AM
{snip technical stuff I can't make head or tail of}If I'd found this Forum when I just started Ceroc and I had realised how massively complicated it was to learn to dance - and how without the benefit of the advice around here I'd stand no chance of achieving anything at all - I'm pretty sure I'd have given it up on the spot.

stewart38
14th-September-2005, 11:31 AM
If I'd found this Forum when I just started Ceroc and I had realised how massively complicated it was to learn to dance - and how without the benefit of the advice around here I'd stand no chance of achieving anything at all - I'm pretty sure I'd have given it up on the spot.

:yeah:

Dance to the beat and have fun for any new people reading this :grin:

LMC
14th-September-2005, 11:38 AM
If I'd found this Forum when I just started Ceroc and I had realised how massively complicated it was to learn to dance - and how without the benefit of the advice around here I'd stand no chance of achieving anything at all - I'm pretty sure I'd have given it up on the spot.
I was lucky enough to have been recommended this forum at about the same time I started Ceroc (names & shame Stewart38, go on, neg rep me, I don't care because I'm still grateful). Maybe the fact that you lot just can't get rid of me is a measure of my bloody-mindedness :rofl: - but it also reflects how knowledgeable, constructive and helpful people are, even if the truth sometimes has hurt

stewart38
14th-September-2005, 12:02 PM
I was lucky enough to have been recommended this forum at about the same time I started Ceroc (names & shame Stewart38, go on, neg rep me, I don't care because I'm still grateful). Maybe the fact that you lot just can't get rid of me is a measure of my bloody-mindedness :rofl: - but it also reflects how knowledgeable, constructive and helpful people are, even if the truth sometimes has hurt


The point Im trying to make is that is no harm talking about footwork /lifts drops /spins jumps /turning on 22/35th of the beat , listening to the 4th chime on the 8th count before you lift your left are and turn side ways 'smile' and hang back for a beat of two then skip for a beat of 4

but if your NEW and havent danced and are reading this try not to worry

LMC
14th-September-2005, 12:09 PM
but if your NEW and havent danced and are reading this try not to worry
Absolutely, you don't have to worry about footwork until *after* the human sacrifices and the blancmange throwing contest (arguments continue to rage as to whether strawberry or chocolate flavour is better).

MartinHarper
14th-September-2005, 12:09 PM
... and how without the benefit of the advice around here I'd stand no chance of achieving anything at all ....

I'm struggling to see how you get anything like that from my post, which you quote, or anyone else's. I wrote "requires a teacher", not "requires a forumite".

El Salsero Gringo
14th-September-2005, 12:20 PM
I'm struggling to see how you get anything like that from my post, which you quote, or anyone else's. I wrote "requires a teacher", not "requires a forumite"....because it took Forumite to point out that it requires a teacher. I'd never have known that, otherwise.

MartinHarper
14th-September-2005, 12:34 PM
...because it took Forumite to point out that it requires a teacher. I'd never have known that, otherwise.

It took someone to point it out to me. I spent several weeks attempting to lead the difference between the two moves without having been taught how to lead footwork in Ceroc, with predictable results. Dumber than thou.

David Bailey
14th-September-2005, 12:50 PM
If I'd found this Forum when I just started Ceroc and I had realised how massively complicated it was to learn to dance... I'm pretty sure I'd have given it up on the spot.
If I were a beginner, I'd stick to the Beginner's Corner for advice about my dancing, and not worrying about obscure and esoteric stuff wot clever people wrote.

Actually, that's pretty much still my approach.


and how without the benefit of the advice around here I'd stand no chance of achieving anything at all
The quality of advice here has definitely helped me - if I don't understand it, I either try to learn more, or I don't worry about it. I don't think beginners are put off - any beginners like to comment? Or have we put you off?

Icey
14th-September-2005, 01:02 PM
The quality of advice here has definitely helped me - if I don't understand it, I either try to learn more, or I don't worry about it. I don't think beginners are put off - any beginners like to comment? Or have we put you off?

I've been reading this thread with huge interest as I haven't the faintest idea about footwork. Either I'm doing it wrong but hiding it well or I'm doing it right but don't know that I am. Either way I'm not sure as I don't look at my feet much when I dance, I've learnt to just enjoy the dance.

I'm not brave enough to ask if my footwork is crap so I'll carry on my sweet merry way being ignorant.

DavidY
14th-September-2005, 01:07 PM
Either way I'm not sure as I don't look at my feet much when I danceIt's a good plan never to look at your feet, whether or not you're attempting footwork
I've learnt to just enjoy the dance.
:yeah:

JoC
14th-September-2005, 01:10 PM
I don't think beginners are put off - any beginners like to comment? Or have we put you off?If one can embrace paranoia there's no need to be put off. Or perhaps it depends how viciously forum addiction grips, it may be sufficient to override put offness.

When do you stop calling yourself a beginner?

David Bailey
14th-September-2005, 01:28 PM
When do you stop calling yourself a beginner?
About 5 minutes ago.

I dunno, I never called myself anything until I found the Forum; this whole categorisation thing sometimes strikes me as a bit iffy. But then I never really thought about my dancing before then either, so there are compensations.

It took about 6 months for me to go from beginner-only classes to beginner+intermediate+freestyle classes, if that helps?

Clive Long
14th-September-2005, 01:34 PM
<< snip >>
..... I don't look at my feet much when I dance ...
<< snip >>
:clap: :worthy:

I know, I know, I shouldn't say it, but sometimes I have to ....

To a keen, but stooping beginner, "Please don't look at my feet, you won't get any clues from what's going on down there."

However, I still feel very inhibited about looking at my partner while dancing - working on it ...

Clive

stewart38
14th-September-2005, 01:52 PM
I've been reading this thread with huge interest as I haven't the faintest idea about footwork. Either I'm doing it wrong but hiding it well or I'm doing it right but don't know that I am. Either way I'm not sure as I don't look at my feet much when I dance, I've learnt to just enjoy the dance.

I'm not brave enough to ask if my footwork is crap so I'll carry on my sweet merry way being ignorant.


I rest my case :worthy:

Icey
14th-September-2005, 02:34 PM
However, I still feel very inhibited about looking at my partner while dancing - working on it ...Clive

Yup, me too.
I've recently realised that I am very bad for not looking at my partner ... I've found it can be a bit unnerving at times but then when I've made a god-awful cockup of a very smiple move and all I can do is laugh and apologise it's easy to make eye contact.

Hmmm, need to work harder on this one. Friday's work is clear.