Judging? What's the score?

[Brady]

Just wanted to add my thoughts on this years Scottish Comp. First, and most importantly, it was great to see over £6k raised for charity once again!!!! Secondly, I thought the event was well run with even tighter organization than previous years. Getting in the door was a very smooth process, the event ran on schedule (unlike many others), and results were posted extremely quickly (often before you could mop the sweat from your face and have a drink after a heat)!

Along with positive comments always comes constructive criticism though! For one, the venue was quite warm and could have benefited from some fans. Secondly, I didn’t feel there was much variety in the music used for the competition rounds. Many of the heats had a latin type track and a faster swingy or rock and roll track. I don’t remember hearing any contemporary music; what happened to music like Toxic, My LA Ex, etc like has been used in previous years? A larger variety of musical styles would have challenged dancers to adapt a bit more. I also noticed quite a few cha cha tracks in various heats. Some of these were ok for modern jive, but a couple were such a heavy cha cha that either they should have not been used or the dancers should have done cha cha rather than modern jive. Dancers should listen to the music and in the event that a DJ plays a track that doesn’t suit the comp style they should dance what the music is saying, and this weekend, a couple of those (i.e. one track in the Open final) said to dance cha cha.

Finally, and probably the most controversial point is regarding judging. People have already posted their opinions so I won’t go there (having had several hours of judging training while in the US in July, I certainly would debate some of the results from finals I watched!). What would be useful is for dancers to see the judging system and criteria in terms of how and for what points will be awarded. Additionally I think it is important that the judges are qualified to be judging the categories they are assigned to (I would have debated this last weekend). Since there is no judging certification program here in the UK like the US, perhaps the judges should have previously placed in an equivalent category to that which they are judging, if not at least competed in the category they’re judging. Just because somebody teachs or can dance (or in some instances both!), doesn’t mean that they will make a good judge. I know we always come back and say that the Scottish Comp is a ‘fun comp’, but we all know good and well that there are people there taking it extremely seriously, which isn’t a surprise as it’s human nature, and therefore I think the selection of judges should be considered carefully.

In the end, I still had a good weekend with loads of lovely dances with many people I haven’t seen or danced with in a while. Also enjoyed doing the showcase (hope this will start a trend and other Scots will think about doing one in the future) and hope everybody found it entertaining (that was the goal!).

Brady

[Scot]

Additionally I think it is important that the judges are qualified to be judging the categories they are assigned to (I would have debated this last weekend).

I will see what I can do to get "Kermit" for your next Showcase :D

[Keith]

Just a follow up on a couple of posts;
firstly & I think I can speak for Tony of C2D, & in fact all the Northwest (England) we had a great time and it was well worth the travelling and with £6K going to charity, what a way to help donate to a worthy cause.
Judging unfortunately is controversial, from Judges walking round a room, to being on a platform, experience & qualifications etc etc. I could obviously pick my favourite method, but at the end of the day we know if we enter a Ceroc Competition, it will be Judged their way, & the same principle with the other comp's. So in short, if we enter the competition, we have to accept the results! This however doesn't mean Judging shouldn't be critiqued after the competitions & therefore improved upon for the following year. I'm sure Scott has this under control.
I must agree the music could have done with a little more change in tempo/rythm throughout the competition, we ended up dancing to two almost rock & roll type tracks! (Not my favourite music either! :eek: ) & some fans wouldn't have gone amiss (pos let down by the venues aircon?).
Again thank you for your support during the day; cheering whilst dancing, positive comments in between rounds & condolences when we didn't win. You are a very kind & friendly bunch.
I would also like to thank Lynda for some lovely dances in the DWS, always a pleasure to dance with.
Finally I hope to see as many of you as possible at Southport for some fun & sexy dances ('sexy dances' for the ladies, so there's no mix up or embarrassment on the day!! :blush: )
Thanks again,
Keith
Formally of C2D (Now retired) Keep supporting Blackpool though, we love to see you
:cheers:

[azande]

I will see what I can do to get "Kermit" for your next Showcase :D
:rofl:

[Aleks]

-snip- Additionally I think it is important that the judges are qualified to be judging the categories they are assigned to (I would have debated this last weekend). Since there is no judging certification program here in the UK like the US, perhaps the judges should have previously placed in an equivalent category to that which they are judging, if not at least competed in the category they’re judging. -snip-

There is no judging certification program, but neither is there a requirement for a teaching qualification for anyone wishing to teach any form of dancing.....isn't this something of equal (un)importance?

[ElaineB]

Judging unfortunately is controversial, from Judges walking round a room, to being on a platform, experience & qualifications etc etc. I could obviously pick my favourite method, but at the end of the day we know if we enter a Ceroc Competition, it will be Judged their way, & the same principle with the other comp's. So in short, if we enter the competition, we have to accept the results! This however doesn't mean Judging shouldn't be critiqued after the competitions & therefore improved upon for the following year. I'm sure Scott has this under control.


Well said Keith!

Simon and I were eliminated from the Advanced as both my feet left the floor on a number of occasions and were therefore considered aerials. We have no complaints about that - we simply forgot, but the Judges quite rightly applied the rules and we were out.

There are four National competitions, each with different rules and Judging criteria. Of course, someone could make it easy for us all and standardise the rules. :whistle: For instance, at Brighton next month, in the Advanced, as long as I keep one foot below my partner's waist, I will not be contravening any rules, however, for Weston Super Mare and Scotland, I am not not allowed to do this - one foot has to be on the floor.

As for the Judging method - I will leave that to those who are more qualified than myself to discuss. However, I did pick the first three in the Intermdiates and the Open. :)


Elaine

[Gus]

OK ... on the subject of judging (yawn ... yup I know).

First of all TOTALY agree with Brady .... have tried to be a judge in a couple of sports I know just how difficult (and eventualy beyond me) such is ... HOWEVER, it would be wonderfull (yet totaly unlikely) for all the main competition orgainsers to get together with the main teacher/competitors(retired?) and put together a central framework ... BECAUSE .. (second point)...

There were 3 very distinct style of dnace going on fomr the three main contenders in the Scots Champs, ALL of whom could righfully say that on another day they were best. There was the stunning latin dance style, there was the complex and eye-catching moves/shapes and there was the wonderfull musical interpretation. I have no doubt in my own mind who should have won ... but thats irrelevant. the key thing is that the real judging criteria needs to be stated, the judges understand that and the marks given accordingly. I ahve been APPALLED at the previous Blackpool and Ceroc competitions where there has been a statement that musical interpretation is highly rated when couples who couldnt find a beat with both hands have been placed :angry: (rant over)

SO ... anyone got the balls to follwo up on Brady's post and actualy make something happen?

[Scot]

Just a follow up on a couple of posts;
Judging unfortunately is controversial, from Judges walking round a room, to being on a platform, experience & qualifications etc etc. I could obviously pick my favourite method, but at the end of the day we know if we enter a Ceroc Competition, it will be Judged their way, & the same principle with the other comp's. So in short, if we enter the competition, we have to accept the results! This however doesn't mean Judging shouldn't be critiqued after the competitions & therefore improved upon for the following year. I'm sure Scott has this under control.
I must agree the music could have done with a little more change in tempo/rythm throughout the competition, we ended up dancing to two almost rock & roll type tracks!

Keith fair points

1 We have already had a discussion re the location of the Judging we will probably change it for next year based on your recomendations.

2 As regards the music it did tend to favour latin/old time music :rolleyes: Caught ! however within two tracks it is not possible to cover a full range of music. But I will bear it in mind for next year.

3 There will be Fans next year though Keith you had lots of fans there :clap:

4 As regards criticisms re the Judges further up, they are all trained certified teachers with many years experience both teaching and dancing and are thus perfectly equipped to spot detail and quality in all aspects of dance. There were 5 judges for each category which in my opinion is a big enough sample to avoid particular personal preferences for certain styles of dance.

[Brady]

There is no judging certification program, but neither is there a requirement for a teaching qualification for anyone wishing to teach any form of dancing.....isn't this something of equal (un)importance?

You are correct Aleks, but attending a class is not competitive and as such the decision is left with the individual whether they attend, not the teacher. On the other hand, some people entering competitions rely on their placing for their dance/teaching CVs, especially those who do this full-time (not including myself in this). Not quite pertinent in the case of the Scottish Comp, but in some cases when there is money at stake, the judging becomes even more important.


4 As regards criticisms re the Judges further up, they are all trained certified teachers with many years experience both teaching and dancing and are thus perfectly equipped to spot detail and quality in all aspects of dance. There were 5 judges for each category which in my opinion is a big enough sample to avoid particular personal preferences for certain styles of dance.

Does the fact that somebody is a teacher or has danced a long time mean that they know how to judge? My opinion is no and that what you look for in judging is not necessarily what you would look for while teaching a class (hence places where judges are trained have a different program from the teacher training program). The reason for having a number of judges for each category shouldn't be to avoid personal preferences; personal preferences shouldn't exist to begin with! If a judging criteria is set, the judges should only be looking for that, not what they like. While in the US, mok judging sessions turned out results with say 80-90% consistancy across the judging panel because they were trained and looking for certain aspects (i.e. critical timing, foot placement, body positioning, musical interpretation, etc).

As Gus mentioned, the real problem is that there is no uniform criteria and without that, judges can't be trained for what to look for. Based on the results from the finals I watched this weekend, I would hazard to say that the criteria was whoever looked most like a Ceroc dancer (i.e. no footwork and twisty up moves with a dip here and there) rather than who was the better dancer!!!!!

Brady

[Scot]

As Gus mentioned, the real problem is that there is no uniform criteria and without that, judges can't be trained for what to look for. Based on the results from the finals I watched this weekend, I would hazard to say that the criteria was whoever looked most like a Ceroc dancer (i.e. no footwork and twisty up moves with a dip here and there) rather than who was the better dancer!!!!!

Brady

Well it is a Ceroc Competition you knew that when you applied. :)

A little unfair to the Judges and extremely unfair to the competitors that won I think :( . At the end of the day what makes your opinion more valid than the Judges :nice:

[Aleks]

-snip- some people entering competitions rely on their placing for their dance/teaching CVs, especially those who do this full-time (not including myself in this). -snip-

I understand your point, but competitors at this level know exactly what they are entering when they send in their form....are your comments directed mostly at the Scottish Ceroc Champs or all British/international competitions?

I believe that unless there is a formal structure of requirements for entry (as there is in ice skating and gymnastics), judging who is more/less competent can only ever be subjective.

The foundation of Ceroc/MJ is that of completely OPEN footwork, interpretation and musicality. The fact that it is 'freestyle' seems to contradict what I interpret as what you'd like to see in the judging process. Unless you wish for classes to be based upon 'correct' technique and interpretation of set music, as in other dance disciplines, it is highly unlikely that your ideals can be realised. I reckon that most people who dance MJ/anything you can freestyle would really be put off if a system like that were put in place - remember we had a poll a while back about whether people wanted to be assessed/examined on their level of dancing.

I still haven't made up my mind whether I think someone should hold a teaching qualification in order to teach dance at any level. More than anything I am swayed by my perception of why that person wants to teach (more a question of integrity, I think).

[Aleks]

Brady - just out of interest what are the prerequisites to be eligible for your judging course?

[Feelingpink]

... At the end of the day what makes your opinion more valid than the Judges :nice:Brady did say that he has done some training in judging. Can that be said for all of Saturday's competition judges? If not, then would you be able to make sure that it happens before next year's competition? Surely it would add huge kudos to your competition - would it even make it unique in the UK MJ scene (and so raising the bar for other competitions)?

There is a similar situation with my 'real life' job in photography and its competitions/awards. Unless the judges have spent time learning how to judge, no matter how many letters they have after their names, how long they've been professionals, whether or not they've taught or won awards themselves - their decisions are not likely to be respected nearly as much as those who have spent time learning how to judge.

It would seem that for the competition to improve, this is one area that has to change.

Put it this way Scot, if you were setting out to create a new MJ competition that was the best in the UK and you were looking for excellence in everything, wouldn't this be one of the items on your tick list?

[Scot]

It would seem that for the competition to improve, this is one area that has to change.

Put it this way Scot, if you were setting out to create a new MJ competition that was the best in the UK and you were looking for excellence in everything, wouldn't this be one of the items on your tick list?

Well possibly but would "several hours of judging training while in the US" cover it do you think." Would we take the money from Charity to pay for it and if they were professionally trained judges would they not have to get a fee which would also come out of the Charity funds.

Frankly I am not looking to create the best MJ competition in the UK I am looking to generate money for charity via a fun event. Unfortunately it would appear that some take the event more seriously than others and perhaps miss the point that it is for charity......

[Tiggerbabe]

Brady did say that he has done some training in judging.
Fair enough, but did he say it was anything to do with judging a Modern Jive Competition?

[Feelingpink]

Well possibly but would "several hours of judging training while in the US" cover it do you think." Would we take the money from Charity to pay for it and if they were professionally trained judges would they not have to get a fee which would also come out of the Charity funds.

Frankly I am not looking to create the best MJ competition in the UK I am looking to generate money for charity via a fun event. Unfortunately it would appear that some take the event more seriously than others and perhaps miss the point that it is for charity......

If you don't want the competition to be better, fine, look away now. It seems that you have done some great organisation and great things with this competition and perhaps I've hit you when you've done the best job you possibly could, you're tired and actually just need a pat on the back. I'm sorry if this is a bad time.

But IF you wanted to improve things, open your mind just a bit. Ask around (by all means on this forum and with your colleagues) for people with judging experience, perhaps even international experience or international judging accreditation and find out what we do have, quite possibly in the UK. I'm not holding Brady up as a bastion of judgely excellence - but he did raise a good point. If you found some judging expertise within the UK - or from overseas judges who might just be visiting anyway, why not host a judging workshop or at least find out if people would be interested in attending (hey, you could do something great for MJ, improve your judging consistency and standards and perhaps even come out in front finance-wise, without having to dip into those charity coffers)?

I don't think I have missed the point that this is for charity, but it's not the ONLY point. You're not going to tell me that people JUST go to the champs because it's to raise money for a worthwhile cause (because otherwise they might as well just write you a cheque). But if this is what drives you (rather than excellence or having an even better competition), perhaps you could just think of this as an exercise in increasing your charitable giving - because I'm sure that if you improve on this year's champs, it will increase the coming year's popularity and therefore the amount you are able to give to charity.

I'm not having a go at you or the 2005 champs. It is what it is. I can just see how much better things could be next year with some more effort. :hug:

[Scot]

I'm not having a go at you or the 2005 champs. It is what it is. I can just see how much better things could be next year with some more effort. :hug:

The premise here is that the Judging was incorrect, based on what you observed on the day do you believe that to be the case?

In truth I suspect that even with trained Judges there would still be competitors who felt the judging was incorrect. It is the nature of the beast.

[Feelingpink]

The premise here is that the Judging was incorrect, based on what you observed on the day do you believe that to be the case?

In truth I suspect that even with trained Judges there would still be competitors who felt the judging was incorrect. It is the nature of the beast.

No, that isn't the premise at all. The premise is that competitors - in whatever field you choose - will always be happier with the decision if they know that the people judging them have been trained to do that job. It also puts you on a surer footing when there are criticisms of the judging - because you are right about there always being competitors who feel "I woz robbed".

Will you at least think about training your judges?

[Aleks]

No, that isn't the premise at all. The premise is that competitors - in whatever field you choose - will always be happier with the decision if they know that the people judging them have been trained to do that job. It also puts you on a surer footing when there are criticisms of the judging - because you are right about there always being competitors who feel "I woz robbed".

Will you at least think about training your judges?

I disagree - no matter what level of qualification or training a person has for a job there will always be those who disagree. These people will just have something different to say about it - for example, were we to have 'trained' judges, there would be the question of who trained them, how well they did in their training/what marks they achieved in their judge-training exams, what part of the world they come from and the predominant style there etc etc. In all areas of life we rank ability, especially when it does not accord with our ideals.

I used to teach ballet in a school affiliated to the Royal Academy of Dance. All their examiners (judges?) are trained in the same way, by the same people and mostly only by invitation. However, on any given day, were an aspiring dancer to perform in front of three or four of them, each examiner would give a slightly different mark. No matter who you are or how you've been trained, we still have our personal preferences - things which catch our eye more than others. There were examiners we would look forward to having more than others (and some we would dread having)....just as would be the case in your proposed judging. Each judge would become known for their preference and I suspect that any truly competitive person would take this into consideration when preparing for a competition, which brings us back to the various topics we have debated here on the forum, the most recent being whether good dancers or good judge-pleasers win competitions.

I believe it's a cycle of events that is unlikely to ever be stopped. Dance (esp MJ) is not a science with defined rules - it's an interpretive thing and as such will always be open to variations in taste.

Also, if we assume that judges should be trained......
Who should provide the training?
Who will decide who has the correct knowledge to train others?
What would be the prerequisites to apply for training?
How could it be decided that a person had enough knowledge and discernment to then be a judge and who would make this decision?

We're back to the point where we started.......

[ElaineB]

I am sorry to disagree with Brady on this, but I have said in private and will say in public that I thought the level of Judging was very good. In fact this is the first time that I have agreed with the results in nearly every catergory. Eleven of us came up from Bristol and I think I can speak for nearly all of them when I say that the Judging at this competition was one of the best. As I said earlier, I placed the top three in each catergory, but not neccesarily in the same order. I personally thought the intermediate top three could have been anyone and this is borne by the scores that I have seen, just one point difference between 1st, 2nd and 3rd.

In the advanced, there were only three couples anyway and this time, I had the exact placings.

With regard to the Open, there were three different styles and I could see reasons for each of the top three being placed first.

In double trouble, the team from Bristol were eliminated (joining myself and Simon from Advanced :rofl: ) and again the winners were the best.

I did not see the final of DWAS, so cannot comment on that.

At other competitions this year, I have not agreed with the placings, especially in the Open - but that is my opinion and I am not a Judge!

So, Scott and the Judges up in Scotland, you have had one major critiscism, but I believe a lot more people were happy with the way the Judging was done.

If we are to look at MJ as a whole, then as has been argued repeatedly on this forum, it would be fantastic if there could be a meeting of minds in the rules for competitions, then there would be less confusion. Having said that however, somebody will always disagree with the Judges.

Congratulations again for a very well run event. Of course, there are always things that a competition can do to improve and I have no doubt that you will take on board the comments made by others and if possible make the adjustments as required.

And a whacking big congratualations for doing it all for charity! :clap: :clap: :clap:


Elaine

[Tiggerbabe]

based on what you observed on the day do you believe that to be the case?

I'm guessing that the reason this part of your question wasn't answered, Scot, is because Feelingpink wasn't at the Competition, and so can't comment. :flower: I could be wrong :whistle:

[Feelingpink]

I'm guessing that the reason this part of your question wasn't answered, Scot, is because Feelingpink wasn't at the Competition, and so can't comment. :flower: I could be wrong :whistle:Does that make my comments any less relevant?

[azande]

No, TiggerBabe just said that you are unable to answer Scot question because you weren't there. Seems reasonable to me...

[David Franklin]

Frankly I am not looking to create the best MJ competition in the UK I am looking to generate money for charity via a fun event. Unfortunately it would appear that some take the event more seriously than others and perhaps miss the point that it is for charity......I think it's unfortunate that the judging discussion is attached to this thread - as I don't believe Brady's comments are specific to the Scottish competition; it's not like we don't discuss the judging after every other comp! In fact, you could take it as recognition that your comp has firmly established itself up with the others! But I think it would be better to split the discussion at this point.


In truth I suspect that even with trained Judges there would still be competitors who felt the judging was incorrect. It is the nature of the beast.Sure (and I don't agree with the USA system myself). But I've seen decisions over here that have left me speechless, and have heard many horror stories about the actions of particular judges. There is a big issue with lack of consistency. Clear, detailed statements about what the judges are looking for, and how they reach a score based on what they see would be a big step forwards. I don't believe many competitors really feel they know what the judges are looking for and marking on - I know I don't.

[Dancing Veela]

I can't say that I agreed with all the results - but I can say that looking back at the DVD I don't have an issue with where Alan and I were placed. We had THE best fun on the dance floor and enjoyed every minute of the final - and THAT was the most important thing for us (and having the crowd shouting really added to that).

What would make it better for me is to be able to see our scores and work out where we went wrong and what we could do to improve our dancing.

I know after Blackpool you could phone up to get comments on your dancing - and I'm sure I will be able to ask some of the judges (because they are local). It would be good to see your own individual breakdown of scores for all the categories you are marked on - it would give you some clues as to what to work on for next year.

Oooh one comment Scot on the first round of the lucky dip - when some people didn't get to dance until after the first round of the Intermediate (not me!) - I heard one lady complain that she had just got dressed for the lucky dip only to have to get changed out of that into her intermediate outfit and then back into her lucky dip outfit (maybe not the biggest deal for men but for us ladies it can be a big effort - including make-up/hair etc) - I also feel it was a bit unfair because dancing in the lucky dip first is a great way to get rid of some nerves/get a feel for the dance floor before starting the intermediate!

JohnS don't apologise for just wanting to have fun with me in the lucky dip - I had a great time dancing with you (even if I was a bit hyper!).

DVx

[Angelina]

In my opinion as mentioned by others, you can have years of training in judging, but personal views (meaning what they actually saw) will always come into it.

From previous experiences i have found that the results were gob smacking, due to how i judged, but obviously when you have a panel of judges (which is the fairest way) You may get one judge who see's an amazing performance from one couple, whereas the second judge may have only seen the mistakes that they made - thus the difference in marking.

Overall i feel if the briefing of the judges is done correctly, they are experienced in the type of dance they are judging and they know what they are looking for criteria wise, training is irrelevant, unless as mentioned all the MJ Competitions use the same criteria, but this isn’t the case.

I would also like to add that i thought the judging on the day, was done by very competent people, and they did an excellent job, might be a bit biased there though! :whistle:

[John S]

{I've dragged this reply over from the previous "competition" thread to follow the rest of the "judging" messages}

I'm sure Scot and his team will listen to comments, criticisms etc and take them into account for future events.

But it would be unfortunate if they were to get the impression that lots of people went away from the event unhappy or dissatisfied. Every single person I have spoken to since the weekend said that they enjoyed the day and that the event was well run - I'm not claiming any statistical validity for my survey, but it convinces me that Scot & co are doing something right.

Personally I don't want the Scottish event to be just a pale imitation of the Blackpool or London Championships - it has developed a character of its own and a unique element of being run on an entirely voluntary basis as a fundraising event for charity. (No use saying we could all have just written cheques and not bothered holding the event - the fact is that we wouldn't have done so, and in 3 years about £20 000 has been raised that wouldnt otherwise have been - fantastic achievement! ) AND it's the best event I have attended for keeping strictly to the timetable, no minor achievement in itself!

And (again, personally) I don't want to see MJ go down the ballroom dancing route of being shoe-horned into a specific and regimented style which will win prizes, if it loses its accessibility to the majority of "non-championship-class" dancers. The strength of MJ is its ability and willingness to absorb other dance styles and still stay under the MJ umbrella: the weakness is that this makes judging between completely different styles more subjective (shown to its extreme on Saturday in the Showcase and Open Finals)

By all means get the best judges available, give them some training, publish the criteria they will work to, etc. But please don't think it will end controversy over decisions - it won't.

[Peaches]

{I've dragged this reply over from the previous "competition" thread to follow the rest of the "judging" messages}

I'm sure Scot and his team will listen to comments, criticisms etc and take them into account for future events.

But it would be unfortunate if they were to get the impression that lots of people went away from the event unhappy or dissatisfied. Every single person I have spoken to since the weekend said that they enjoyed the day and that the event was well run - I'm not claiming any statistical validity for my survey, but it convinces me that Scot & co are doing something right.

Personally I don't want the Scottish event to be just a pale imitation of the Blackpool or London Championships - it has developed a character of its own and a unique element of being run on an entirely voluntary basis as a fundraising event for charity. (No use saying we could all have just written cheques and not bothered holding the event - the fact is that we wouldn't have done so, and in 3 years about £20 000 has been raised that wouldnt otherwise have been - fantastic achievement! ) AND it's the best event I have attended for keeping strictly to the timetable, no minor achievement in itself!

And (again, personally) I don't want to see MJ go down the ballroom dancing route of being shoe-horned into a specific and regimented style which will win prizes, if it loses its accessibility to the majority of "non-championship-class" dancers. The strength of MJ is its ability and willingness to absorb other dance styles and still stay under the MJ umbrella: the weakness is that this makes judging between completely different styles more subjective (shown to its extreme on Saturday in the Showcase and Open Finals)

By all means get the best judges available, give them some training, publish the criteria they will work to, etc. But please don't think it will end controversy over decisions - it won't.
:yeah: and please don't apologise to me either I had a great time dancing with you on Saturday and am so glad you persuaded me to enter because we both knew it was for fun and more importantly charity :clap: if it got too serious it might put a lot of people off entering the competition, and then who are the losers? :sad:

[bigdjiver]

...And (again, personally) I don't want to see MJ go down the ballroom dancing route of being shoe-horned into a specific and regimented style which will win prizes, if it loses its accessibility to the majority of "non-championship-class" dancers. The strength of MJ is its ability and willingness to absorb other dance styles and still stay under the MJ umbrella: the weakness is that this makes judging between completely different styles more subjective (shown to its extreme on Saturday in the Showcase and Open Finals)... :yeah: I am for diversity, MJ being a place where bodies meet and minds do not.

[DavidB]

unique element of being run on an entirely voluntary basis.not so unique for the judges. Weston, Britroc, Beach Boogie and Ceroc Hammersmith certainly expect the judges to volunteer their time for free. (No idea about Blackpool)


as a fundraising event for charity.
I believe that is unique for a competition. But given that several competitions operate at a loss, it is probably just as well.

David

PS Well done to Scot for organising a successful event, and raising so much money for charity.

[David Franklin]

In my opinion as mentioned by others, you can have years of training in judging, but personal views (meaning what they actually saw) will always come into it.Not sure what you mean here. If you mean, of five judges, maybe only one happens to see a mistake, sure, that happens, and there's nothing wrong with it. But if you have five judges, and one thinks "triple steps are the greatest thing ever, so I'll mark the couple who did the greatest number of them first", then I think there's a problem. Sure, there's some degree of subjectivity about what's important, but the stories I hear go a long way beyond that.


Overall i feel if the briefing of the judges is done correctly, they are experienced in the type of dance they are judging and they know what they are looking for criteria wise, training is irrelevant, unless as mentioned all the MJ Competitions use the same criteria, but this isn’t the case.Analogously: overall, I feel if the briefing of the teachers is done correctly, they are experienced in the type of dance they are teaching and they know what they are teaching criteria wise, training is irrelevant.

And yet, funnily enough, Ceroc (rightly) considers teacher training one of its strongest advantages over other organisations. Because there's a lot more to being a good teacher than being a good dancer. It's not at all obvious to me it's different for judging.

Off the top of my head, to be a good judge you have to:
be good at observing the entire dance floor,
you have to keep changing your focus of attention between couples,
you need to pay attention to what both the man and woman are doing,
you need to relate what you're seeing to the judging criteria,
you need to attribute the correct marks to the correct couple
and all in real time! This list is by no means exhaustive - because the point is, all those things I've chosen have very little to do with your ability as a dancer, teacher, or competitor. So why would you expect to be automatically good at them without training?

[Brady]

Well it is a Ceroc Competition you knew that when you applied. :)

Am not debating this point, but I can't think of many other styles of dance that don't have footwork (maybe hand jive!), so presumably adding intricate footwork to Ceroc should make it more advanced and hence better than those that don't do footwork (assuming it is done well of course!).


Brady - just out of interest what are the prerequisites to be eligible for your judging course?

The course that I refer to is the NDDCB Judging Certification. There is no prerequisite to be trained as a judge. The program consists of 12hrs training, a preliminary exam, apprentice judging at a number of events, 12hrs more training, and completed with letters of recommendation from head judges or event directors.


Would we take the money from Charity to pay for it and if they were professionally trained judges would they not have to get a fee which would also come out of the Charity funds.

Do you really think a few judges wouldn't donate their time? If they're not willing to donate their time for a worthy cause like your charity event, then if I were the organiser, I wouldn't want them at my event!


Fair enough, but did he say it was anything to do with judging a Modern Jive Competition?

I didn't say any type of dance in particular. While across our dance course consisted of west coast swing, balboa, cha cha, night club 2 step, hustle, etc. The concepts of timing, body posture, foot placement, etc are generic to dance with each style having different recognised attributes in these areas. For example, modern jive timing is every other musical beat (i.e. four single units in a bar). Any bit of training, whether in another style or not, is certainly better than none.


In truth I suspect that even with trained Judges there would still be competitors who felt the judging was incorrect.

I would agree with you on this, but it is unlikely that people will publicly question the decisions of these judges assuming they are trained and respected as a judge.


because the point is, all those things I've chosen have very little to do with your ability as a dancer, teacher, or competitor. So why would you expect to be automatically good at them without training?

This is my point exactly! There are people here in the UK with judging certification (I met a couple at Southport this summer) and I would hazard a good bet that they would volunteer their services. In any case, I hope this discussion is being read by other competition organisers and at least one of them take the comments from this thread on-board. The one that does this I would imagine will end up running the more successful event with increased numbers attending.

Brady

[azande]

I would agree with you on this, but it is unlikely that people will publicly question the decisions of these judges assuming they are trained and respected as a judge.
Oh right, that's the reason why football referees are never criticized!!!!!!

[David Bailey]

Oh right, that's the reason why football referees are never criticized!!!!!!
Exactly.

If you do competitions, especially "proper" competitions, you're going to get disappointment, recriminations, scrutiny and criticism of judging, no matter what.

Arguably, having "proper trained judges" will help deflect some criticism, but it won't stop it, and won't stop people feeling the way they feel.

(Also, I'm not even sure if it's possible to have a "MJ judge training programme" that has much value - even a "Ceroc judge training programme" would be difficult; I'm reminded of Adam's What is ceroc? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5529) thread here, raised in similar circumstances)

That's the price you pay for running competitions; you engender a competitive environment.

[Buttons]

This is not meant to offend any one- In my humble opinion- If you are going to have a Scottish competition then rules need to be applied and followed. If you are going to have a charity event then these can be relaxed. I do not believe you can have both without problems arising.

If entrants are expected to abide by the lady keeping one foot on the floor, hand release for 8 beats only rules etc and be dis-qualified for not doing so,then the competition is outlining standards/creating rules. Those judging it have to be qualified/knowledgeable in minimum standards expected to maintain continuity, fairness and eliminate biasis.

If the event is only for fun then why were people eliminated for not abiding by the rules in advanced categories. Maybe they could have lost a point or so but clear elimination seems a bit extreme at a fun event.

[Gus]

And yet, funnily enough, Ceroc (rightly) considers teacher training one of its strongest advantages over other organisations. Because there's a lot more to being a good teacher than being a good dancer. It's not at all obvious to me it's different for judging. Ok ... this is a generic comment, and NOT aimed at the Scots Champs which were superbly run (IMHO).

Picture the scene, you are there with your partner in the final of the Open. You look around the dance floor and recognise the familiar faces of your conetempories. Overall similar to yourslef ... been dancing MJ for weell over 5 yaers, put in around 10 hours practice a week, have plundered other dance styles for moves , footwork and 'shapes' and are now at the top of the game. THIS is what the crwods come to see, the best of the best .... and THEN ... you look up at those who will decide your fate, the Judges .... a grop of well meaning but , frankly, inferior dancers who probably would struggle at advanced level, have little (or no) competition experience, and have been taught to teach to a formula. And thats when it hits you ... its all a lottery.

OK ... thats a very extreme view, but if the likes of Viktor, Nigle and Amir were competing. .... who would be good enough to sit in 'judgement' of their technical and showmanship perfomance?

[Scot]

Ok ... this is a generic comment, and NOT aimed at the Scots Champs which were superbly run (IMHO).

Picture the scene, you are there with your partner in the final of the Open. You look around the dance floor and recognise the familiar faces of your conetempories. Overall similar to yourslef ... been dancing MJ for weell over 5 yaers, put in around 10 hours practice a week, have plundered other dance styles for moves , footwork and 'shapes' and are now at the top of the game. THIS is what the crwods come to see, the best of the best .... and THEN ... you look up at those who will decide your fate, the Judges .... a grop of well meaning but , frankly, inferior dancers who probably would struggle at advanced level, have little (or no) competition experience, and have been taught to teach to a formula. And thats when it hits you ... its all a lottery.

OK ... thats a very extreme view, but if the likes of Viktor, Nigle and Amir were competing. .... who would be good enough to sit in 'judgement' of their technical and showmanship perfomance?

To quote the analogy above how many refs are better than the football stars they judge. In fact arguably you could apply that anywhere

[Gus]

To quote the analogy above how many refs are better than the football stars they judge. In fact arguably you could apply that anywhereAt least most referees have actualy played competitive football! How many CTA teachers (or Blitz for an example) have competed at Open level, especialy in one of the majors? There is a HUGE gap between the forumla that standard MJ teachers (e.g. CTA, Blitz, LeRoc) are taught to impart and the things that you look for as a judge. So given that, why would a teacher then make a good judge? :confused:

[ducasi]

OK ... thats a very extreme view, but if the likes of Viktor, Nigle and Amir were competing. .... who would be good enough to sit in 'judgement' of their technical and showmanship perfomance? If the random Joes of this forum are savvy enough to realise these guys are some of the best teachers and dancers in the UK, don't you think they'd maybe also be able to tell when it comes to a competition?

Now if you then go to people who have been trained in teaching people to dance, surely they should be able to cope?

[David Franklin]

To quote the analogy above how many refs are better than the football stars they judge. In fact arguably you could apply that anywhereFair comment. But the judge or referee does have to know the "rules". A referee might make a mistake in judging if someone is offside, but he shouldn't be confused about what the offside rule actually says. I have spoken to a dance judge who was decidedly unclear about the concept of "hitting a break" - I must say I found the idea of her judging musical interpretation somewhat scary.

[Dreadful Scathe]

If the event is only for fun then why were people eliminated for not abiding by the rules in advanced categories. Maybe they could have lost a point or so but clear elimination seems a bit extreme at a fun event.

I disagree. Every competition has rules - why should the size, location, charity status, or anything else make any difference to how they are applied?
And how would others feel if they DIDNT get through a round because a couple who broke the rules did? That doesnt sound like 'fun' to me!

The only issue for complaint anyone can have is if they feel the organisers have gone against their own rules or applied them with bias. I've never seen or heard of any evidence at ANY competition that that was the case.

As for the judging thing. I think its up to the competition organisers who they use for judging, and if people don't like it they don't need to enter ;). I know that sounds particularly unconstructive, but what would you have the competition organisers do? let someone else organise the judging? let someone else define which qualifications the judges must have? or how much experience they must have? and if so, who is qualified then to define these judging criteria? and how much of a guarantee will you have that no one will comaplain about their decision ? :rolleyes: It was no surprise to me that Ceroc Teachers were judging a Ceroc competition, and their experience doesn't bother me. The decisions were no more controversial than at any other competition.

[Dreadful Scathe]

To quote the analogy above how many refs are better than the football stars they judge. In fact arguably you could apply that anywhere

Thats hardly the same thing. Referees train to know all the rules and must be able to watch for violations - they are not judging the footballing skills of the players. An equivalent in a dance competition would be a judge that purely watches for violations like the "must not separate for more than 8 beats rule" and the "one foot on the floor" rule etc..

Saying that though, I agree with the intention of the analogy - there is no reason why a judge with some experience of judging and who knows what to look for cannot judge ANYONE regardless of their own actual dance ability. I see it as a separate skill, its just that there is no better way to learn what to look for than to actually be able to do it yourself. Is that necessary for an amateur competition though?

[azande]

At least most referees have actualy played competitive football!
I believe this to be utter *******s! Can you please prove me wrong?

David, can you please explain what hitting a break means?

[David Franklin]

David, can you please explain what hitting a break means?Why? Or to preempt you, I'm aware that it's not actually that easy to "put into words" what it means. I'd say something like "A break is an abrupt or acute change in the music, usually in the rhythm section. Hitting a break is acknowledging a break by your dancing - for example by changing the rhythm of your dancing, using a dramatic move, gesture, or pause etc". But I won't deny I had to think about it, and it's a bit on the woolly side. But y'know, you can get a group of advanced dancers in a room, say "clap on the breaks", and 90% will be able to do it 90% of the time, even if they couldn't say how.

Now I don't want to go into too much detail, because I don't want to end up identifying the judge. But suffice it to say the problem wasn't that she couldn't define "hitting a break". She did not seem to know the term, certainly did not understand the concept, and even after it was explained (much easier with music!), was unable to find even the obvious breaks in a piece of music. (Well, to be fair, she could recognize a break after it had been and gone). That's about as much as I want to say, so I won't explain how I came to those conclusions - sorry! :blush:

[azande]

You explained it a lot better than I could have done.

[Feelingpink]

... Every competition has rules - why should the size, location, charity status, or anything else make any difference to how they are applied?
And how would others feel if they DIDNT get through a round because a couple who broke the rules did? That doesnt sound like 'fun' to me!... :yeah: And if, as Buttons suggested, that the rules in fun or charity events could be relaxed, would it also mean that people who had won a "fun"/"charity" event rather than a "proper" competition would have to state this on their dance CV or any self-promotion i.e. Winner of the Timbuktu 2006 Open Championships (Fun) :devil:

[Brady]

David, can you please explain what hitting a break means?

David already replied to this with a good and valid answer. Here's an additional description of a break, as extracted from the NDDCB Dance Terminology notebook which is used on the training program I was on in the US in July.

Brady

"BREAK (Hitting the Breaks) - (1) In dance music, musical "Breaks" sound as if someone had actually stopped the music. (2) It may sound like the music stops, but the beat continues. Musical Breaks usually occur toward the end of a major phrase (2) "Hittin' the Breaks" is a phrase that became popular in the early 1970s, but gained more popularity in the 1990's as more and more dancers studied the music and started learning how to "Hit the Breaks." (3) "Breaks" in the Music are the strongest and therefore the easiest parts of the music to hear.

To choreograph a "Stop" (Pose) at a Break Point adds both interest and drama to the performance. However, it is also exciting when a musical break lends itself to an appropriate move that both compliments and counters the stop in the music. Concentrate on timing before teaching someone how to "Hit the Breaks." Many dancers have learned to hit the breaks before they clearly understood timing, phrasing, pulsing and centering." (Copyright - Skippy Blair)

[MartinHarper]

both my feet left the floor on a number of occasions and were therefore considered aerials...

Seems an odd definition of an aerial...

[Gus]

Seems an odd definition of an aerial...Seems to be the MAIN defintion of an arial! The only other defintion is the Aussie oe which talks about feet in relation to mans waist.

[MartinHarper]

Seems to be the MAIN defintion of an arial!

Still seems odd. I was expecting some consideration of height, or the length of time the feet leave the floor, to enter into the consideration. Otherwise, just running onto the floor counts as multiple aerials.

[David Franklin]

both my feet left the floor on a number of occasions and were therefore considered aerials...
Seems an odd definition of an aerial...I agree, any rule that considers feet to be aerials is more than a little suspect! (This was genuinely the point I thought you were making, too :blush: ).

[Aleks]

Am not debating this point, but I can't think of many other styles of dance that don't have footwork (maybe hand jive!), so presumably adding intricate footwork to Ceroc should make it more advanced and hence better than those that don't do footwork (assuming it is done well of course!).



I understand your point when you say more advanced, but why should that make it better?
I've never been to an Advanced Ceroc class, but from what I been shown of what Scot taught in a series of Advanced Classes this year, footwork played hardly any part in it.

I'm not saying I agree with either approach (Brady's or Scot's) but I do believe that the Ceroc 'Board', whoever they are, are the people who should provide the guidelines and structure of their dance form. Anyone outside of that group is in no position to make assumptions..... and I'm not sure whether their guidelines should be published or circulated to Joe Bloggs in the short term either.