Workshops (fancy a good row?)

[LMC]

I went to a style workshop yesterday, which was well taught and I picked up some useful stuff (armjive footwork - at last I get it!!!). But I still don't feel I really got value for my 30 quid and won't be paying that for another - I'll pick up whatever else I need from better dancers than me (there's enough of 'em!), private lessons, weekenders or workshops where even numbers are guaranteed.

I booked this workshop weeks ago. I was not best pleased to turn up and find that there were two extra women, which meant that with only 10 couples, us girls spent approximately 20% of the workshop standing out. We could join in on practising the footwork while not partnered up, but there is no way of really getting the style right (tension, spare arm, etc) on your own. Uneven numbers don't seem to be so much of an issue at the beginners' and intermediate 1 & 2 workshops. But for specialist workshops, IMO, the organisers should make every effort to *ensure* even numbers.

If the numbers are "out" because people don't show (after having paid :what: ) then this can't be helped - but to the best of my knowledge this wasn't the case yesterday. Also, it's unlikely that there will be more than one or two "no shows" so if teacher and demo lead, then when it comes to the freestyle practice bits (which were the bits I *really* resented missing) the numbers are still even.

Now I've had my rant, the constructive recommendations are:

- book even numbers at specialist workshops
- demo should be able to lead (yesterday's couldn't do even beginners' moves in freestyle which meant that I missed out on half the warm up)
- possibly offer free places to taxi dancers, who can balance the numbers by playing lead or follow role as appropriate - keep the paying customers happy.

Discuss....

[robd]

Fancy naming and shaming the culprits?

[Lory]

Discuss....
:what: Is that an order :confused:

(nervous voice) I I I, can't comment, as I've never been to one (don't hit me) :blush: ok? :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I booked this workshop weeks ago. I was not best pleased to turn up and find that there were two extra women, which meant that with only 10 couples, us girls spent approximately 20% of the workshop standing out. You'll be talking about the Ceroc style workshop, run yesterday in Kentish Town then?

If so, you should write to Richard who is in charge of Ceroc workshops for Ceroc London, and explain why you're unhappy, and ask what he proposes to do about it.

Don't forget to publish his reply on the Forum.

[ducasi]

Fancy naming and shaming the culprits? From reading the forum over the past week or so, I've got a good guess...

Maybe a search for "workshop 4th september" would find it... :wink:

LMC, I'm sympathetic both to your plight and to the workshop organiser's.

I'm sure they try to balance the numbers, but it's very difficult. Do you turn away keen ladies before you are sure you won't get more lazy guys booking late?

I think that drafting in taxi dancers to even the numbers would be the best idea. I was once offered a free place at a beginner's workshop when I was just on the cusp of the beginner to intermediate move, to help balance things out, but I was unable to attend and the workshop in the end was cancelled.

[LMC]

:rofl: Lory :hug: - you are just *too* nice...

Robd - it's the "even numbers at workshops" principle I hoped might be an interesting discussion rather than "X franchisee is Evil"

EDIT: ESG - as when I complained about a franchisee previously, I have contacted, not just moaned on here. Additionally, a couple of us girls told Richard about this yesterday, although the taxis idea has only occurred to me today (on reflection). As I said to Rob, it's the principle of even numbers I want to discuss. Yes, it's fairly obvious "who" it is to anyone who cares to investigate, but I didn't want to say who it was until Richard has had an opportunity to respond.

[El Salsero Gringo]

By the way, Amir's musicality workshop yesterday was perfectly matched in numbers (10 couples), very interesting, and a snip at £25.

I was even treated to the voyeuristic pleasure of watching George (former head of the Ceroc Teachers Association and mistress of all dance-things that are Ceroc, who was attending the workshop incognito) staring impassively at the master of MJ himself while he explained in great detail exactly what was wrong with the Ceroc 'First Move' and why his version is better to dance and more musical to boot.

[ducasi]

By the way, Amir's musicality workshop yesterday was perfectly matched in numbers (10 couples) ... Well my guess was wrong then! :blush:

Sounds like it was a good workshop.

[robd]

:rofl: Lory :hug: - you are just *too* nice...
Robd - it's the "even numbers at workshops" principle I hoped might be an interesting discussion rather than "X franchisee is Evil"


It's a tricky area. Unless you only take bookings from couples (in the leader/follower sense rather than m/f) how can you guarantee it?

The taxi dancer idea seems a good one if you can get people at short enough notice.

On a different note,do you know why the fella who started the DLS workshop with us at Daventry left/was asked to leave very early in proceedings? Had he turned up on spec?

Robert

[El Salsero Gringo]

Well my guess was wrong then! :blush:Therein lies the danger of the "I'm not going to say who, but you can all guess..." style of Forum posting. Negative rep from me to everyone who indulges in it, from now on.

[Sparkles]

As a lone female turning up to a workshop I suppose there's always the possibility that you may end up without a partner (these things tend to happen). So, in future, to avoid this maybe it would be better to ask a guy to book the workshop with you and be 'your partner' for the workshop - that way you have already garunteed that you won't ever be standing out.

[DavidB]

Therein lies the danger of the "I'm not going to say who, but you can all guess..." style of Forum posting. Negative rep from me to everyone who indulges in it, from now on.
I'm not going to say who is going to give me negative rep for this post, but you can all guess.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm not going to say who is going to give me negative rep for this post, but you can all guess.hehehehe

[bigdjiver]

As well as no-shows workshops are plagued by "leave-earlies". I have twice been used as a "reserve" in the event of there being extra women, and had to leave because, despite equal bookings, there were extra men.

[LMC]

ESG, that's a tough call - as I said, I wanted to give Ceroc London a chance to respond to my e-mail before revealing ID. I had forgotten Amir's workshop was the same day and so apologies to all for confusion concerned.

Sparkles - doesn't always help if the workshops organisers want to rotate partners unfortunately :sad: - as other lone women may book! This is why I booked so early: as it happened, someone I regularly dance with booked later, if I'd known he wanted to go we would have booked together.

[El Salsero Gringo]

ESG, that's a tough call - as I said, I wanted to give Ceroc London a chance to respond to my e-mail before revealing ID.Then wait till you have the reply before starting the thread.

[SilverFox]

Then wait till you have the reply before starting the thread.For an ass, you're really quite wise. :worthy:


Wise ass.... :o

[Lou]

Now I've had my rant, the constructive recommendations are:

- book even numbers at specialist workshops
- demo should be able to lead (yesterday's couldn't do even beginners' moves in freestyle which meant that I missed out on half the warm up)
- possibly offer free places to taxi dancers, who can balance the numbers by playing lead or follow role as appropriate - keep the paying customers happy.

Discuss....
As a woman who gets fed up with us always outnumbering the chaps, I totally understand your frustration. :hug: And I think it's fair enough to discuss it now, in generic terms. :na:

I agree that it would probably make sense to advertise similar technique-based workshops as "bring a partner", to ensure that everyone gets their money's worth. And if you can't find a partner who is available that day, most teachers/organisers are happy to try and pair you up in advance. Also, that way it's not specified as "fixed partner", so if required, the teacher can still rotate the class (for example, if you need to try dancing with different people to adjust your lead/follow technique).

I disagree about the demo always having to be able to lead. IMO, a good female Demo needs to be able to show her movements clearly, and add style, to inspire the class. However, the Taxi solution would work very well (of course, assuming that they were well rewarded for their participation ;) ).

[Bex]

Well my guess was wrong then! :blush:

Sounds like it was a good workshop.


Amir's doing the same Musicality workshop for us at Twyford on Saturday 17th September, if anyone missed out on this one!!! PM me for more details!

[Damien]

Having been a Forum member for a few months now and read numerous comments from various members I have come to the conclusion that AMIR is a god!

I just wish he would hold a few workshops in the north - we have plenty of macho blokes here who love to dance and attend workshops.

[Lee]

By the way, Amir's musicality workshop yesterday was perfectly matched in numbers (10 couples), very interesting, and a snip at £25.

I was even treated to the voyeuristic pleasure of watching George (former head of the Ceroc Teachers Association and mistress of all dance-things that are Ceroc, who was attending the workshop incognito) staring impassively at the master of MJ himself while he explained in great detail exactly what was wrong with the Ceroc 'First Move' and why his version is better to dance and more musical to boot.

I look forward to Georges class on Wed then, looks like i'll be learning a new way of doing a first move. :clap: :clap:

Both Amir & George are easily in my top 5 of teachers!!! :worthy: :worthy:

:cheers: Lee

Roll on Camber!!! :waycool:

[LMC]

ESG - but then I wouldn't have been able to rant nearly so effectively :mad: Seriously, you're right, point taken, apologies again for any misleading. I am gutted that I couldn't/can't make *either* presentation of Amir's workshop as the 'taster' lessons of his that I've been to have been fantastic. I hope the workshop will 'come round again' and am so keen to go that I would pay for an otherwise reluctant partner to come with me if it would assure me a place.

Thanks Lou :hug:

For the more specialist workshops "bring a partner" is a great idea, but if there are no single places would deny participation to people like me who don't have a regular dance partner and, for whatever reason, can't track someone down to go with. So I thought the Ceroc Central people had the right idea, same as Lou suggested - when I booked a workshop there as a lone woman, Emma simply put me on a list to 'pair me off' with a lone man - and I got a place. I had asked several people I dance with (and even asked on here) but specialist workshops by their very nature are going to be less easy to find interested partners for. This means that if you're booking as a "single" you just have to plan earlier! - to try to get to the top of any waiting list. Which is fine.

Ceroc Central workshop worked out numbers-wise, Ceroc London didn't. I would not have gone on either if I had known I was going to be a "spare".

[El Salsero Gringo]

Having been a Forum member for a few months now and read numerous comments from various members I have come to the conclusion that AMIR is a god!

I just wish he would hold a few workshops in the north - we have plenty of macho blokes here who love to dance and attend workshops.He's a recently graduated ballet student who (I gather) was a Ceroc teacher down under before coming to the UK. He's an extremely gifted communicator and has many useful insights into Modern Jive. He's also a very good lead, so I'm told. He clearly dances in an extremely musical manner - useful, given the title of the workshop.

But he's not a god.

[David Bailey]

But he's not a god.
Obviously, because then we'd have to debate his existence.

Amir does exist, and does even post, whereas I can't recall a post from God recently - maybe he said something about how many days there are to go to Southport or something when I wasn't paying attention.

[Lee]

But he's not a god.

What is a god?

[El Salsero Gringo]

What is a god?Imortal being worthy of worship by humans; usually imbued with superhuman powers.

Unless Damien had something else in mind.

[MartinHarper]

I've not been to Ceroc workshops (still skeptical on that), but I've done workshops elsewhere, and some of them have had one or two guys over. I suppose this may have reduced the amount I learnt a little, but not by ~20%. As well as practicing footwork, there's the opportunity to watch the teachers and other students, which can often be enlightening. It can also be a useful rest opportunity - it's harder to learn when tired.


demo should be able to lead

I suppose if there's a female demo who's just a "warm body", then it's better to have a warm body that can lead in the freestyle bits than a warm body that can't. In that situation, I'd rather the teacher dispensed with the warm body altogether, and demonstrated stuff directly with his students.

If the female demo is acting more as a secondary teacher, then I'm more interested in her ability to teach and demonstrate well than in her ability to lead.

[tsh]

If the female demo is acting more as a secondary teacher, then I'm more interested in her ability to teach and demonstrate well than in her ability to lead.

Definately. Don't many of the better teachers work as couples anyway? Otherwise, how can they really teach both their male and female students?

Saw a class taught by a female teacher on Friday, and it made a refreshing change to see that her 'demo' really was leading the moves.

Sean

[FirstMove]

I went to the last Style II w/s in Kentish Town. This was fully booked at 5males+5 females, although as I managed to book at 1am the day before, I guess it wasn't necessarily going to work out like that.

IIRC, one couple turned up late, one chap was really late and another chap never showed up at all.

This workshop was 100miles from home and I was booking on the spur of the moment. As I can't manage to find a regular partner in my regular venues, the chances of me finding a partner to take with me would have been close to zero.

I'm not good enough to get into the Really Good Dancer clique, so I rely on workshops to improve. I was thinking of doing Style I. Maybe I won't now :tears:

[Andreas]

I always rate private classes higher than workshops. Having said that, I have been to a good number of workshops and of those there were quite a few that were really good. You just can't expect to get out of it EXACTLY what YOU have in mind because there is a whole lot of people in the workshop that ask for different things. As a teacher you have to cater for a group ... or teach private classes. :flower:

[Damien]

Imortal being worthy of worship by humans; usually imbued with superhuman powers.

Unless Damien had something else in mind.

Well I’m no Plato, Leibniz, Aquinas or Descartes. :sad: Think it was Kant who said that it has been usual for thinking people to insist that it is impossible to prove the existence of God. That said every culture has had its gods and perhaps MJ (MJ is a culture :really: ) is no different in that regard. It seems that there is some element common to all cultures that causes us to look for something transcendent on which to build our lives. Amir :worthy: may not be god (or a god) but he is that transcendent being for many in the MJ world. :clap: Well at least for many folks south of Watford! :whistle:

[Lee]

I rely on workshops to improve. I was thinking of doing Style I. Maybe I won't now :tears:

If you have been dancing 6 months or less (at least once a week) I would do the style and intermediate classes that Ceroc offer. :clap:

Then you will gradually become a good dancer and will be able to hang out by the stage :whistle:

Seriously though, don't let 'us' put you off, i loved my classes (over a year ago), they help form the base in which you can develop from.

:cheers:

Lee

[Rachel]

Imortal being worthy of worship by humans; usually imbued with superhuman powers.

Unless Damien had something else in mind. I'm in the 'Amir is a God' camp!


I look forward to Georges class on Wed then, looks like i'll be learning a new way of doing a first move. This probably won't happen ... not yet, at least. Marc [Ceroc teacher] has said for years that the first move could be improved to make it easier and more musical, and submitted his ideas to HQ. But, for beginners at least, he's not allowed to teach anything other than the standard first move.

Rachel

[LMC]

Unfortunately, the demo was more of a 'warm body' than an active contributor - Richard did 99% of the actual teaching and did it very well, don't let my whines put you off FirstMove, my complaint is with the "numbers" and the rotation not the quality of teaching or the actual content, both of which were excellent. If I hadn't coughed up 30 quid to spend so much time standing out (and actually getting rather chilled in the very well air-conditioned room!), I'd've been perfectly happy with the afternoon.

I agree with the principle that you can learn a lot by watching the teacher/fellow students. But for style workshops this is of limited use. Richard was, when possible, dancing with one of the 'stood out' ladies. On at least two occasions when this happened, my footwork was fine, but my frame was completely hopeless *because I had not been practising with a partner*. So I get one go with Richard where he tells me what's wrong and one go where I do a bit better - then we're onto the next thing. Whoever was stood out during that particular part of the class basically missed out on the true learning i.e. starting to put that particular style element into muscle memory.

[David Bailey]

As well as practicing footwork, there's the opportunity to watch the teachers and other students, which can often be enlightening. It can also be a useful rest opportunity - it's harder to learn when tired.
I think there's something to be said for this, in a workshop environment - you actually get the chance to listen to what the teacher's saying, and maybe even think about it a bit. I think workshops should be about teaching concepts, I could even make a case for saying you shouldn't be dancing that much in workshops, but listening and learning...


If the female demo is acting more as a secondary teacher, then I'm more interested in her ability to teach and demonstrate well than in her ability to lead.
:yeah: Demos should be able to demonstrate their own half of the dance - if they can teach / demonstrate their partner's part as well, great, but I think that's a long way down in the requirements list.


I'm not good enough to get into the Really Good Dancer clique,
:yeah: Who is... and who are these people anyway? :confused:
No-one ever invites me to join a clique, it's just not fair... :mad:

[Lynn]

I've only organised one full afternoon workshop - but I simply stopped taking bookings for men until I got more women to even up the numbers. And I had a spare woman on standby - she was happy to come just to watch - and when a woman had to drop out due to an injury, she was able to fill the space.

I think the idea of having taxi dancers on 'standby' to fill any spaces caused by someone not being able to come at the last minute is very useful. If that is not possible an option is giving those the option of a refund or transfer booking to another date when there would be equal numbers. Then if all the women were happy with there being 2 extra that is OK - but at least there would have been the option of a refund if you didn't want to spend the money and then spend time 'standing out'.

[stewart38]

Did someone call me ??

Obvioulsy not :waycool:

[MartinHarper]

...for style workshops this is of limited use.

Interesting that you say that. I find that the benefits of a partner are most apparent when being taught technique - frame, tension, and so forth. By contrast, I've seen a few folks do "men only styling" and "women only styling" classes, so presumably they don't find a partner much help there.

[Lou]

I'm not good enough to get into the Really Good Dancer clique, so I rely on workshops to improve. I was thinking of doing Style I. Maybe I won't now :tears:
Awww... I've always enjoyed the dances we've had (even the one with the First Move Boob Block. ;) :whistle: ). Feel free to give me a yell if you ever want to do a workshop with me. :flower: I'm always interested in improving my style & technique.

[Lou]

By contrast, I've seen a few folks do "men only styling" and "women only styling" classes, so presumably they don't find a partner much help there.
But aren't these specifically designed to be taught without a partner? For style workshops that have practical partner-based exercises - surely they work best with a partner? :whistle:

[LMC]

Interesting that you say that. I find that the benefits of a partner are most apparent when being taught technique - frame, tension, and so forth. By contrast, I've seen a few folks do "men only styling" and "women only styling" classes, so presumably they don't find a partner much help there.
That was a sweeping statement on my part, through sheer ignorance of the vastness of the subject (I have seen men only/women only workshops advertised but not 'investigated' content.... yet). Sorry 'bout that and thanks for pointing that out.

I guess it depends what's being taught - yesterday's workshop focus was 'removing bad habits' and 'footwork'. 'Bad habits' included lead/follow connections - for which you need a partner. And being able to do fast footwork is quite dependent on technique/posture - different when you're on your own from when you're connected to a partner - well, they are for me, maybe they shouldn't be?

EDIT: What Lou said :yeah:

[johnthehappyguy]

That was a sweeping statement on my part.......

yesterday's workshop focus was 'removing bad habits' and 'footwork'. 'Bad habits' included lead/follow connections - for which you need a partner. And being able to do fast footwork is quite dependent on technique/posture - different when you're on your own from when you're connected to a partner - well, they are for me, maybe they shouldn't be?



LMC,

I can complain as much as anyone else, and used to be massively Anally retentive. So I can empathise with your apparent unhappiness, on the other hand:- try to look at things a bit more positively.

Sometimes it helps to just chill out a bit, and make the best of things.

I attended a workshop, where I was not able to take part at all, because of injury. I got loads out of it. A lot of it is just down to your attitude.

If you have been dancing for a while, and are keen to learn, then I would hope you appreciate how much you can learn through watching the teacher, and demo (whether for positive aspects, or even negative ones, so that you can avoid such negative points yourself).

I have been asked to help out at workshops before, to balance numbers up, and am happy to do so , when I have no other commitments. ( I am not a taxi-dancer)

Ceroc dancers are really lucky to have Taxi dancers who give freely of their time, to try to help out other dancers.

How much more would you LMC be willing to pay for a workshop to guarantee that taxi-dancers would be there waiting on stand-by incase the actual numbers are uneven ?

Or would you expect taxi-dancers to give up more of their time, when by definition they are already pretty good dancers ?

I agree that some workshops I have attended have not been perfect, but a lot of what you get out of them is down to attitude - your own.

Quote "being able to do fast footwork is quite dependent on technique and posture... (you need a) partner."

It would probably be helpful for you to discuss this with any dance teacher.


johnthehappyguy :nice:

[El Salsero Gringo]

stuffThat's quite right, NewKid - you were fleeced for thirty quid to watch people dance for an afternoon, and the fact that you found it objectionable is all down to your poor attitude.

If you have any remaining issues after this bit of advice, It would probably be helpful for you to discuss this with a responsible adult, presumably they can correct your faulty state of mind.

[Minnie M]

...... I hope the workshop will 'come round again' and am so keen to go that I would pay for an otherwise reluctant partner to come with me if it would assure me a place.
Previously posted on this (your) thread :whistle:

Amir's doing the same Musicality workshop for us at Twyford on Saturday 17th September, if anyone missed out on this one!!! PM me for more details

[Minnie M]

Saw a class taught by a female teacher on Friday, and it made a refreshing change to see that her 'demo' really was leading the moves.
Check out Kelly (Ceroc Greenwich) :worthy:

[Daisy Chain]

What is a god?


Donny Osmond

Daisy

(A Besotted Little Flower)

[Minnie M]

I have always called Viktor god :waycool: he has certainly been around (teaching) longer than most and is still a great teacher :worthy:

[Andreas]

I'd never call anybody a 'god'. Not sure if for religious background but I can always see one weakness or another, which makes everybody quite human.

Though, some people are JUST AMAZING but not god ;) :flower:

Look mom, it wasn't me who highjacked this thread, honest!

[Minnie M]

:blush: not a reeeeeeeeel god, sorry if offends :flower:

[frodo]

...
I booked this workshop weeks ago. I was not best pleased to turn up and find that there were two extra women, which meant that with only 10 couples, us girls spent approximately 20% of the workshop standing out. We could join in on practising the footwork while not partnered up, but there is no way of really getting the style right (tension, spare arm, etc) on your own. Uneven numbers don't seem to be so much of an issue at the beginners' and intermediate 1 & 2 workshops. But for specialist workshops, IMO, the organisers should make every effort to *ensure* even numbers.
Discuss....
Of 3 booked workshops I've been to, all had more demand from women, but ended up with 1 or 2 extra men, so they made an effort.

Though it would be really nice to have a couple of on call spares, and worth paying extra for.

Ceroc with their comprehensive database, selective advertising, and offering free / reduced price places should be in a better position than most to fill workshops with equal numbers.

[Andreas]

:blush: not a reeeeeeeeel god, sorry if offends :flower:

No, doesn't offend :hug: I simply believe it puts people in a place where nobody really wants to be. It kind of excludes a person from mingling because no longer do people take them for the person they are but only for the reputation they have. Essentially you deprive that person of a life among you as their admirers. :flower:

[LMC]

Previously posted on this (your) thread :whistle:
Sorry Minnie, but you missed a bit:


I am gutted that I couldn't/can't make *either* presentation of Amir's workshop ...
:tears: - already had workshop booked yesterday and am going to Southport!

ESG - :rofl: :worthy:

[MartinHarper]

'Bad habits' included lead/follow connections - for which you need a partner.

Ok, gotcha. Lead/follow certainly requires a partner, and I find uneven numbers make a big impact on those classes. I can see where your original post is coming from now - I was somewhat mislead by it being called a "style workshop". Given that:


So I get one go with Richard where he tells me what's wrong and one go where I do a bit better - then we're onto the next thing. Whoever was stood out during that particular part of the class basically missed out on the true learning...

I wasn't there, so just as a general comment: I find that good teachers tend to rotate the class more often when there's an imbalance in numbers, and cover the ground a little slower. It matters less for style stuff than for the lead/follow stuff you mentioned.


Would you expect taxi-dancers to give up more of their time, when by definition they are already pretty good dancers?

I think free entry to a £30 workshop in exchange for being there as a "reserve" to make the numbers even is a pretty good bargain in itself, especially if it's a workshop close to home. Whether that offer is taken up by taxi-dancers or others is fairly irrelevant.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think free entry to a £30 workshop in exchange for being there as a "reserve" to make the numbers even is a pretty good bargain in itself, especially if it's a workshop close to home. Whether that offer is taken up by taxi-dancers or others is fairly irrelevant.I can think of two taxi-dancers who live less than five minutes walk from the venue in question... unfortunately we were both in Hammersmith doing Amir's workshop :whistle:

[Minnie M]

I am gutted that I couldn't/can't make *either* presentation of Amir's workshop

Sorry Minnie, but you missed a bit:
:tears: - already had workshop booked yesterday and am going to Southport!
woops ..... sorry, hadn't realised by your post that you were going to Southport :innocent: maybe I am having a 'senior' moment, but I still think the above is confusing :blush:

[LMC]

woops ..... sorry, hadn't realised by your post that you were going to Southport :innocent: maybe I am having a 'senior' moment, but I still think the above is confusing :blush:
No, it's not you, just saying "can't make either" was confusing, sorry :blush: Wish I could make 17th :(

Martin Harper - well, there you are, my ignorance is shining through like a Very Shiny Thing (the workshop was actually named 'Style 1' and most of it was the footwork, lead/follow stuff was just the first bit really). But since correct frame/tension is IMO fundamental to good style, a partner is needed for all of it really.

As I said above, the workshop *was* useful, I learned a lot - but was deeply frustrated by not being able to progress as far as I know I could have if I'd been doing some of the stuff "properly" - i.e. with partner rather than just moving me feet around while stood on the side.

[David Bailey]

Sometimes it helps to just chill out a bit, and make the best of things.
I find it more often helps to get a chainsaw and... Oh, hold on, keep forgetting this is a public forum.


I would hope you appreciate how much you can learn through watching the teacher, and demo (whether for positive aspects, or even negative ones, so that you can avoid such negative points yourself).
This is a good point - too many workshops are like "extended CerocTM classes", when they should be an opportunity to learn stuff you don't ever learn in a class. Sure, putting it into practice is essential; but, you know, Proper Professional Dancers occasionally sit down and think about dancing as well...

However, if you pay for a "partner-dance" workshop, you should get a partner-dance workshop.


Ceroc dancers are really lucky to have Taxi dancers who give freely of their time, to try to help out other dancers.
Lucky? :confused:
Taxi-dancers are part of the Ceroc teaching method, and are a large reason for the success of Ceroc as an organisation. Sure, they deserve our appreciation - especially the good ones - but then, so do the teacher, the demo, the door manager, and everyone else who works to make the evening a success.


Or would you expect taxi-dancers to give up more of their time, when by definition they are already pretty good dancers ?
I'm not completely convinced by this assertion - I wouldn't have classed myself as a "pretty good dancer" when I was taxi-ing. I suspect many taxis would also jump at the chance to get a free workshop, especially the more advanced ones - you can always learn things.

[LMC]

This is a good point - too many workshops are like "extended CerocTM classes", when they should be an opportunity to learn stuff you don't ever learn in a class. Sure, putting it into practice is essential; but, you know, Proper Professional Dancers occasionally sit down and think about dancing as well...

However, if you pay for a "partner-dance" workshop, you should get a partner-dance workshop.
:yeah: - it was more like a 4-hour intermediate class. Which was fine, it was what I was expecting - but I was also expecting *a partner* of some description for the entire afternoon, having paid 30 quid for it. Effectively, that's less than 8 quid an hour where a private lesson will cost 40 quid. So I do not expect the workshop to be exactly to my requirements. When it comes to "what I want" in terms of content, I'm a beginner, I need to improve everything, so couldn't even define my requirements beyond a vague "I want to get better at..."

I'm not saying standing out had zero value - I practised the footwork, etc. But it was of *much* more limited value than being with a partner.

I do plenty of sitting down and thinking (I am the Woman Who Over-Analyses Everything, remember?)...

[Trish]

I suspect many taxis would also jump at the chance to get a free workshop, especially the more advanced ones - you can always learn things.

As a taxi, I have stepped in to help with uneven classes several times. Sometimes I got admit ones for this, sometimes I didn't, just got the class free. I did beginners, Int 1, and Int 2 as a lead, and learnt a hell of a lot from it. I've also done them as a follow, and helped out swapping between the lead/follow depending on what was needed. If nothing else it's very good exercise and you get to know people better. As has already been said though, it helps that generally speaking I was very near to the venue! They always try to get the workshops even in our area, although occasionally people just don't turn up, which I find very strange :confused: .

[JoC]

I'm not completely convinced by this assertion - I wouldn't have classed myself as a "pretty good dancer" when I was taxi-ing. Why do you say this? Is it modesty or do you have high standards? I guess it's down to interpretation of the phrase but I would've thought that 'pretty good dancer' wasn't over the top for any taxi dancer I've watched or danced with, otherwise they wouldn't be would they? :confused:

[David Bailey]

Why do you say this? Is it modesty or do you have high standards?
Neither - possibly I just wasn't a very good dancer then :blush:

I'm lovely now of course :innocent:

[JoC]

I'm lovely now of course :innocent:Well that's all that matters. :hug:

[jivecat]

Why do you say this? Is it modesty or do you have high standards? I guess it's down to interpretation of the phrase but I would've thought that 'pretty good dancer' wasn't over the top for any taxi dancer I've watched or danced with, otherwise they wouldn't be would they? :confused:


I think that taxi dancers are often chosen for general competence, patience and approachability as much as for dancing excellence.Arguably it is as important to have "people skills" as dancing skills in that role.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think that taxi dancers are often chosen for general competence, patience and approachability as much as for dancing excellence.Arguably it is as important to have "people skills" as dancing skills in that role.Let's not mince words. Quite a lot of taxi-dancers dance like pooh on stilts.

[David Bailey]

I think that taxi dancers are often chosen for general competence, patience and approachability as much as for dancing excellence.Arguably it is as important to have "people skills" as dancing skills in that role.
:yeah:
That's what I was trying to say. If only I were articu-... articho-... good with words, I'd have put it that way.

One could even argue that beyond a certain point, being "too good" a dancer might not help you be a taxi dancer, in that it's harder work to remember how to teach the basics if it all comes naturally to you.

(That way lies Elder Sanchez, in other words... :devil: )

[David Franklin]

Let's not mince words. Quite a lot of taxi-dancers dance like pooh on stilts.Shut it, Eeyore!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Shut it, Eeyore!Oh, sorry, was it a big secret?

[JoC]

I think that taxi dancers are often chosen for general competence, patience and approachability as much as for dancing excellence.Arguably it is as important to have "people skills" as dancing skills in that role. Fair enough, down to interpretation then, 'general competence' and 'pretty good' roughly equate in my world.

ESG, have you ever considered poetry? :rofl:

[David Franklin]

Oh, sorry, was it a big secret?You're just jealous because Piglet prefers dancing with me...

[El Salsero Gringo]

... Piglet prefers dancing with me... :whistle: If it makes you happy to think so... :whistle:

[azande]

ESG, have you ever considered poetry? :rofl:
Even better..... what about diplomacy? :wink:

[JoC]

Even better..... what about diplomacy? :wink:
A diplomatic ass...? About as likely as DJ coming dancing in Scotland. :na:

[Tessalicious]

:yeah:
That's what I was trying to say. If only I were articu-... articho-... good with words, I'd have put it that way.

One could even argue that beyond a certain point, being "too good" a dancer might not help you be a taxi dancer, in that it's harder work to remember how to teach the basics if it all comes naturally to you.

(That way lies Elder Sanchez, in other words... :devil: )Elder is a good dancer? Oh really, I'd never noticed - whenever I dance with him he seems more interested in bragging about his skill in other areas. But then that's Latin men for you :whistle:

[lindyloo]

I post this on behalf of Richard Oliver,who is at work and unable to use the internet for security reasons. Sorry it's taken me so long to post but it's the 1st chance i've had.

"I am replying to this thread on ceroc workshops and specifically the style workshop I ran on the 4th September in Kentish Town.

I have never posted a message or even viewed the forum before, but after this thread was brought to my attention I thought I needed to respond to some of the points made. Firstly, I do sympathise with the comments regarding the imbalance of numbers on workshops in general and specifically to the event I ran on Sunday. As an organiser and teacher of workshops on behalf of Ceroc London I strive to ensure that the events meet the requirements of attendess in terms of content, organisation, performance, venue facilities, booking arrangements and therefore value for money. Although it is never nice to hear negative feed back it is important that organisers are aware of what the issues are so they have the opportunity to rectify any underlying problems and certainly any feedback could have been sent direct to me.

Of all the issues regarding running workshops, an imbalance of numbers is the one area which gives organisers the biggest headache. Ceroc London utilises a 'live' online booking system which can be accessed 24 hours a day. Our system has inbuilt parameters to ensure that gender disparity is monitored making it impossible for too many of either sex to book. We also have an online waiting list so that as soon as a place becomes available then the booker is notified. The system is also monitored by Ceroc London staff and so we are aware of all the bookings made on to workshops.

However, it does not matter how robust the system, it cannot account for 'no shows' which is what happended on Sunday. Presumably the men decided that the sunshine and forecast of 30 degree heat meant that they preferred to do something else. I did actually say at the beginning of the workshop we were waiting for 2 men to arrive but we would start the workshop without them - in the end they never showed. I do have several experienced dancers of both sexes who are more than happy to fill in if someone notifies us, but of course we rely on a communication from the person who plans not to attend. I certainly believe we try and cover all the eventualities, but it is not always possible. The important thing is we are constantly trying to improve our workshops based on feedback and I do stress the importance of direct feedback to us in the first instance.

Regarding demonstrators on my style workshops I do not agree with the line that they should be able to dance the man's part - This is a subjective matter and I work with demonstrators that are best able to perform the ladies role relevant to the workshop taught. Taking this to the extreme I would not expect male demonstrators to be able to dance the ladies part on a style workshop!

There are of course many issues that can be debated regarding workshops in general, some already covered in this thread, but hopefully I have covered the main criticism regarding mine on Sunday.

Once again I am sorry that the lady concerned felt she spent too much time sitting out, but I really felt I tried to involve everyone as much as possible - it was not ideal, but I believed I tried to rectify the situation given the circumstances. I am of course pleased that there was very positive feedback regarding content and the teaching!

Thank you".

Richard Oliver
Ceroc London

[robd]

he seems more interested in bragging about his skill in other areas. But then that's Latin men for you :whistle:

Maybe it's just the effect you have on men generally Tessalicious :innocent:

[LMC]

Thanks lindyloo.

If people didn't turn up and didn't contact then that can't be helped (obviously far too wealthy to show common courtesy). But the comments on the poor rotation stand and were made by a couple of women on the day (and if not to Richard then I'm sorry - I didn't speak to him on the basis that I was told by one of the others that she would). Rotation needed to be far more frequent than it was, only having two "goes" at some of the moves when others had six or more felt like the thin end of the wedge to be honest.

WRT direct feedback, I did actually e-mail Ceroc London yesterday but guess that hasn't been passed on to Richard yet. It was pretty much the same as my original post.

[David Bailey]

Elder is a good dancer? Oh really, I'd never noticed - whenever I dance with him he seems more interested in bragging about his skill in other areas. But then that's Latin men for you :whistle:
:eek: Did I imply Elder was a good dancer? Hell, sorry. I meant he was a bad teacher.

He was a very flashy dancer, a very good self-promoter, and a very bad teacher in the late 90's. Not that bad teachers are exactly thin on the ground in the salsa scene of course... Doesn't sound like he's changed at all.

Although I strongly suspect from what I read and hear on the scene that people have caught on to him now, he's much less prominent than a lot of other well-respected teachers (e.g. Susana Montero :worthy: ).

A few years back, a friend of mine bought one of the Elder Sanchez "learn to salsa" videos, I watched it (painful experience), then insisted she take it back to get a refund, as there was no actual teaching in it, just lots of footage of Elder dancing with gorgeous groupies around Tottenham Court Road. Without showing any footwork :mad:

As the saying goes, another thread hijacked to talk about salsa - my work here is done...

[El Salsero Gringo]

:eek: Did I imply Elder was a good dancer? Hell, sorry. I meant he was a bad teacher.What a pity no one told me he wasn't a good teacher, otherwise I'd have made more of an effort not to enjoy his lessons. I think they're pretty good, in fact.

[David Bailey]

What a pity no one told me he wasn't a good teacher, otherwise I'd have made more of an effort not to enjoy his lessons. I think they're pretty good, in fact.
I'm not taking that from a donkey...

(gratuitous effort to sway judges for smuttiest comment award)

[Yogi_Bear]

I'm in the 'Amir is a God' camp!

This probably won't happen ... not yet, at least. Marc [Ceroc teacher] has said for years that the first move could be improved to make it easier and more musical, and submitted his ideas to HQ. But, for beginners at least, he's not allowed to teach anything other than the standard first move.

Rachel
Can anyone who was there explain how Amir proposed to improve the first move? Or Rachel, can you explain what Marc had in mind?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Can anyone who was there explain how Amir proposed to improve the first move? Or Rachel, can you explain what Marc had in mind?I can help you with the first part of the question.

Amir's point of view was that he doesn't like returns, he said he finds them dull. A first move without a return is five counts, or 10 beats. If you don't do the tuck on count 4 (beat 8) but instead turn the lady under and back directly from the 'stepped back on the outside foot' position then the move fits exactly into one bar of music - without the return. (Seeing as I like returns, I prefer the extra turn in so that with the return the First Move takes two bars of music.)

He also prefers the guy's right arm to come around the lady's waist to her right hip rather than rest on her left hip because it gives a stronger connection to lead with. That makes it easier to vary the timing of the steps and so forth.

The question was asked in the workshop, how does the follower know which version of the first move is being led? And the answer, as always, is because the leader leads the move as he wants it done. It's just a case of not bringing the left hand back to the shoulder on beat 4 but raising it for the lady to turn under instead. Simple really.

(I suppose I should add that it's not a revolutionary idea proposed just for the musicality workshop - that's just how Amir teaches a 'Jango' First Move. It's on the Jango DVD also.)

[David Bailey]

Amir's point of view was that he doesn't like returns, he said he finds them dull.
:confused: A return is just a way of moving a lady around - like all other moves. In itself, it's not inherently dull or exciting IMO; again like all other moves it depends on how it's done. I'm reminded of Victor's 1st-move workshop here...

I'd have some sympathy with the argument that the way returns are taught and used (as linking moves, as time-fillers or to compensate for positioning problems) is dull, however. Returns are nice, I like them too.


A first move without a return is five counts, or 10 beats. If you don't do the tuck on count 4 (beat 8) but instead turn the lady under and back directly from the 'stepped back on the outside foot' position then the move fits exactly into one bar of music - without the return.
Now that's very interesting... I never thought of that, and it does make sense. But I generally treat the return bit as an optional extra to the First Move anyhow.


He also prefers the guy's right arm to come around the lady's waist to her right hip rather than rest on her left hip because it gives a stronger connection to lead with. That makes it easier to vary the timing of the steps and so forth.
I think I'd have to see that in practice to be convinced, but it sounds plausible.

Why doesn't Amir simply propose this as a variation? God knows there are dozens of First Move variations already, surely "Amir's First Move" would be acceptable...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Why doesn't Amir simply propose this as a variation? God knows there are dozens of First Move variations already, surely "Amir's First Move" would be acceptable...In so far as he says, 'this is how I prefer to dance and teach the First Move and it's a bit different from what you might have learnt in Ceroc lessons' that's exactly what he does. But he's not a Ceroc teacher so he's free to teach anything he likes, remember - to which authority are you suggesting it should be put forward as a 'variation'?

[Mary]

:confused: A return is just a way of moving a lady around - like all other moves. In itself, it's not inherently dull or exciting IMO; again like all other moves it depends on how it's done. I'm reminded of Victor's 1st-move workshop here...

I'd have some sympathy with the argument that the way returns are taught and used (as linking moves, as time-fillers or to compensate for positioning problems) is dull, however. Returns are nice, I like them too.


Now that's very interesting... I never thought of that, and it does make sense. But I generally treat the return bit as an optional extra to the First Move anyhow.


I think I'd have to see that in practice to be convinced, but it sounds plausible.

Why doesn't Amir simply propose this as a variation? God knows there are dozens of First Move variations already, surely "Amir's First Move" would be acceptable...


I've always known it as Amir's First Move. Well, originally, now I just know it as a first move.

Endless travelling returns while the guy is trying to think what to do next does get very dull and tedious, but then I am a female of the species so that, by definition, makes me (almost) impossible to please. :devil: :wink:

And the obligatory return (good for beginners while they get used to spinning), is not at all necessary unless, perhaps, after about 20 assisted multiple spins! yep, I start to get giddy then, and need a bit of an unwind. :D I would guess a large number of ladies are the same.

M

[Piglet]

You're just jealous because Piglet prefers dancing with me...


This is news to me - when have I danced with either of you? And why did you keep your identities secret? :tears:

[ Just realised - you must be talking about the REAL Piglet :o - didn't realise he did ceroc! ]

[Rachel]

Originally Posted by Yogi_Bear
Can anyone who was there explain how Amir proposed to improve the first move? Or Rachel, can you explain what Marc had in mind?

I can help you with the first part of the question.

Amir's point of view was that he doesn't like returns, he said he finds them dull. A first move without a return is five counts, or 10 beats. If you don't do the tuck on count 4 (beat 8) but instead turn the lady under and back directly from the 'stepped back on the outside foot' position then the move fits exactly into one bar of music - without the return. (Seeing as I like returns, I prefer the extra turn in so that with the return the First Move takes two bars of music.) .... [snip] Sorry, YB, I missed this before. Yes, Marc often does something similar to the above in his intermedate classes (I guess nothing's original in this game, huh?). He calls it a five-beat-first (counting the initial step back as '1'). I love it! He'll then add on another short move so that the sequence adds up to 8 counts. His intermedates are almost always based around 3 sections of 8 counts, to make them feel more musical.

Another variation he teaches is where the man steps forward across the girl when he turns her out, rather than back on on his left foot. I've never really liked the Ceroc practice of the man stepping back on the left in this move - it feels much more comfortable when they step back with the right, or step forward.

Rachel

[TiggsTours]

I am just stunned by this, on so many levels!

But I still don't feel I really got value for my 30 quid and won't be paying that for another
You should DEFINATELY tell your franchise manager this! Its disgraceful that you should be left feeling this way.

I booked this workshop weeks ago. I was not best pleased to turn up and find that there were two extra women, which meant that with only 10 couples, us girls spent approximately 20% of the workshop standing out.
This just amazes me! I have to admit that I have never been to a workshop, but I was always under the impression that numbers were limited to keep them even, and I know that our franchise often says that "we need one other man to run this workshop" for this reason! Maybe different franchises work in different ways, maybe 2 guys just didn't show up, which is just inconsiderate!

demo should be able to lead (yesterday's couldn't do even beginners' moves in freestyle which meant that I missed out on half the warm up)
This is probably the bit that surprises me the most! Female taxi dancers are expected to know how to lead, that should definately apply to demos to, especially demos at workshops, as they should be helping with the teaching!

possibly offer free places to taxi dancers, who can balance the numbers by playing lead or follow role as appropriate
I do agree with this, and I have known this to be offered for to taxi dancers for the very same reason, but, the franchise manager probably won't know for definate until the day before that they need a taxi dancer to even things up. Its a bit much to ask a taxi dancer (who doesn't get paid) to give up a few hours of their Saturday or Sunday at such short notice, or to suddenly tell them at the same short notice that they are not, in fact, needed. Maybe franchises could always ask 2 taxi dancers along to every workshop, if numbers are even, I'm sure they can still be put to use in some other way!

[El Salsero Gringo]

I am just stunned by this, on so many levels!

You should DEFINATELY tell your franchise manager this! Its disgraceful that you should be left feeling this way.The workshop in question was organised (and taught) by Richard Oliver for Ceroc London - he's already replied in detail in this thread (via Lindyloo) as to what went wrong: in essence, two men just didn't turn up on the day.

Maybe there could be a 'standby' list people could put themselves down for, with a phone number. If someone doesn't turn up within 15 mins of the start of the workshop, someone from the standby list might be able to come in at zero notice and take their place for free? It doesn't have to be a Taxi Dancer - could be anyone in the area who's vaguely interested in doing the workshop.

I wonder if the guys (or girls) who don't turn up and can't be bothered to call in realise what a pain in the backside they are?

[TiggsTours]

I wonder if the guys (or girls) who don't turn up and can't be bothered to call in realise what a pain in the backside they are?
Maybe a £100 refundable deposit, to guarantee attendance, would do the trick!

[El Salsero Gringo]

Maybe a £100 refundable deposit, to guarantee attendance, would do the trick!I did think of that, but I figure it would probably put people off attending.

[LMC]

I'd just like to point out that I did e-mail Ceroc London directly as well as whining on here.

Perhaps people who make a habit of paying and then not showing up without bothering with the courtesy of letting the workshop organiser know could be blacklisted from other workshops - once, well, emergencies happen - but "two strikes and you're out"?

Two taxi dancers at each workshop is a good idea - if the numbers are even, well, the taxis get to do the workshop same as the other punters - and if they get to go for free...

The standby system is also a good idea - I would be up for this if I was on a waiting list for a workshop I really wanted to do.

[Yogi_Bear]

Sorry, YB, I missed this before. Yes, Marc often does something similar to the above in his intermedate classes (I guess nothing's original in this game, huh?). He calls it a five-beat-first (counting the initial step back as '1'). I love it! He'll then add on another short move so that the sequence adds up to 8 counts. His intermedates are almost always based around 3 sections of 8 counts, to make them feel more musical.

Another variation he teaches is where the man steps forward across the girl when he turns her out, rather than back on on his left foot. I've never really liked the Ceroc practice of the man stepping back on the left in this move - it feels much more comfortable when they step back with the right, or step forward.

Rachel
Thanks Rachel. I have to admit I would find it quite hard to step back on my left foot now in a first move (though normally, of course stepping back left for a rock step). It turns me away from my partner and I would rather turn towards her. I step back right, if at all, and like the variations where I turn to face or step beyond my partner. This also suits slotted dancing styles, which I prefer... :)

[Russell Saxby]

Another variation he teaches is where the man steps forward across the girl when he turns her out, rather than back on on his left foot.

Rachel

:yeah: :yeah:

Hi Rachel - yep this is something I do more and more in freestyle, without even realising I do it.

Must think about teaching it one of these days..

:flower:

[TiggsTours]

I'd just like to point out that I did e-mail Ceroc London directly as well as whining on here.

Perhaps people who make a habit of paying and then not showing up without bothering with the courtesy of letting the workshop organiser know could be blacklisted from other workshops - once, well, emergencies happen - but "two strikes and you're out"?

Two taxi dancers at each workshop is a good idea - if the numbers are even, well, the taxis get to do the workshop same as the other punters - and if they get to go for free...

The standby system is also a good idea - I would be up for this if I was on a waiting list for a workshop I really wanted to do.
IMO, speaking as a taxi dancer, I prefer the idea of a waiting list. I'd be happy to help out at workshops, if I'm really needed, but don't honestly fancy spending 3 hours of my precious weekend at a beginners workshop, learning how to do the arm-jive properly, after having been doing it without too much trouble for 9 years now, unless I'm really needed!

[Clive Long]

Another variation he teaches is where the man steps forward across the girl when he turns her out, rather than back on on his left foot.

Rachel

:yeah: :yeah:

Hi Rachel - yep this is something I do more and more in freestyle, without even realising I do it.

Must think about teaching it one of these days..

:flower:
I'd say be careful what you reveal in a public forum Russell otherwise the Ceroc(TM) Move-Police will be on you like a pack of wolves for incorrect First-Move teaching. :whistle:

Clive

[LMC]

IMO, speaking as a taxi dancer, I prefer the idea of a waiting list. I'd be happy to help out at workshops, if I'm really needed, but don't honestly fancy spending 3 hours of my precious weekend at a beginners workshop, learning how to do the arm-jive properly, after having been doing it without too much trouble for 9 years now, unless I'm really needed!
Fair comment! But as I think I said (I know I meant to, because I'm sure someone else did, possibly Martin Harper but I'm too lazy to check): people over is less important in a pure "learn more moves" workshop, because you really can get a lot out of watching people. But on a style workshop for a partner dance where your connection with your partner is critical to getting the style right, you *need* a partner. Well, I do.

Although I've been dancing only half the number of months that you have years I can appreciate that giving up that amount of time to do a beginners workshop would not be attractive. Although I would jump at the chance of a free beginners workshop as a 'self-check' thing - wouldn't pay, but would certainly be happy to make up numbers. And perhaps even you, with *that* much more experience than me could benefit from something like a style workshop - as free practice if nothing else. Again, I can appreciate that could be less attractive than a free Sunday afternoon. I don't think that being 'spares' on workshops should be a condition of taxi-ing.

[El Salsero Gringo]

IMO, speaking as a taxi dancer, I prefer the idea of a waiting list. I'd be happy to help out at workshops, if I'm really needed, but don't honestly fancy spending 3 hours of my precious weekend at a beginners workshop, learning how to do the arm-jive properly, after having been doing it without too much trouble for 9 years now, unless I'm really needed!Well I'd do it, if there were some Admit One's on offer. I'm just a whore for those little pieces of card.

[David Franklin]

Well I'd do it, if there were some Admit One's on offer. I'm just a whore for those little pieces of card.I think you've misspelled 'horse' again...

[Rachel]

I'd say be careful what you reveal in a public forum Russell otherwise the Ceroc(TM) Move-Police will be on you like a pack of wolves for incorrect First-Move teaching. :whistle:

Clive Ah but these variations are for intermediate routines only ... For beginners, it's straight down the Ceroc line all the way (of course!!) - i.e. learning the uncomfortable way first :wink:
R.

[David Bailey]

Well I'd do it, if there were some Admit One's on offer. I'm just a whore for those little pieces of card.
? You must have hundreds of the beggars by now - you building a house with them or something?

[El Salsero Gringo]

? You must have hundreds of the beggars by now - you building a house with them or something?I'm hoarding them until the currency changes - then they'll be worth a fortune.

By the way, I expect they make excellent roach cards, for those off to Southport...