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LMC
31st-August-2005, 11:18 PM
It's only once in a blue moon and when there's a Z in the month that numbers are exactly even for classes...

Which rotation method do you think is best?

To make this vaguely scientific, please vote on the assumption that the teacher has explained the method correctly and that it is the normal rotation method at that venue, so most people are used to it. I've assumed extra women because that's normally the case.

Bad old way = moving a queue of 947 women :non-existent yawn icon

Scatter method = extra women EVENLY distributed between couples, e.g. one 'spare' woman for every four couples

What I'm going to christen the 'split' method - extra women are divided into two or more queues and assigned specific rows to rotate around as per queue method - explained properly here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147193&postcount=49)

Other method - please describe...

WittyBird
31st-August-2005, 11:24 PM
Gotta say since Finchley where i first experienced the scatter and Luton on Tuesday its the preferred one for me

Scatter method = extra women EVENLY distributed between couples, e.g. one 'spare' woman for every four couples

It feels as if you are more involved than just stood there in a queue as if your waiting for your pension. :rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
31st-August-2005, 11:24 PM
If it's explained clearly, and everyone knows what to do then it doesn't really make any difference.

Slotting people in between couples works, until some idiot decides not to move on because that would (quite correctly) leave them dancing with an empty space, and they're either too important or too stupid to have to wait out a turn like everyone else. And you need to have a good eye to judge where to slot extra people in, I think it's quite hard to get it roughly even.

Having more than one queue (i.e. one for each row) means that when you get to the start of the row you probably don't have any idea how many people waiting there are ahead of you before you can join the row, so moving on sounds like a nightmare.

Personally I prefer the nineteen-ladies-on (it usually is ladies) method.

LMC
31st-August-2005, 11:27 PM
Personally I prefer the nineteen-ladies-on (it usually is ladies) method.
It is the simplest - but I *long* for the teacher to yell at them to hurry up in some venues!

Gill (Norwich)
31st-August-2005, 11:27 PM
I experienced the scatter method at Letchworth Moday and thought it was great.
Tonight I explained it to the teacher at CerocAnglia, and she seemed very keen to try it. :)

filthycute
31st-August-2005, 11:58 PM
I saw this being done at a large venue and the results weren't pretty. The dance floor was packed.....then they brought on all the extra ladies to stand inbetween making it nigh on impossible for the other couples to find space to dance. It looked a bit messy......then....

then i saw it done at another, less packed venue it it worked out fine.

I guess it's all down to each classes circumstance. I like the 'move x ladies around' method. It makes people on the floor easier to see and stops the wimmen chit chatting whilst the teacher is talking. :whistle:

fc x





Scatter method = extra women EVENLY distributed between couples, e.g. one 'spare' woman for every four couples

Whitebeard
1st-September-2005, 12:29 AM
..... just stood there in a queue as if your waiting for your pension.
They lob mine straight into my bank account!

But I agree, even as a feller, with your preferred method of rotation. So much quicker, and it copes automatically with late-comers to beginners and droppers-out in intermediate.

Lynn
1st-September-2005, 12:34 AM
I saw this being done at a large venue and the results weren't pretty. The dance floor was packed.....then they brought on all the extra ladies to stand inbetween making it nigh on impossible for the other couples to find space to dance. It looked a bit messy......then....

then i saw it done at another, less packed venue it it worked out fine. :yeah: The scatter method doesn't work well in a very large class or a crowded class. I left a class once that was using this method as I knew I was going to get squashed, stood on or bumped into when I found myself in a small 'space' with couples all around. In a circle it works well as you can stand back 'outside' the circle to have safe space. And if for some reason someone doesn't move on when they should and you find several woman in a gap together, some can just move on and create a few more 'gap' spaces. Its the only rotation method I have seen used in salsa classes, but they do tend to have a lot of extra ladies.

Whitebeard
1st-September-2005, 12:51 AM
..... but they do tend to have a lot of extra ladies.

Even that isn't going to get me to one of those Salsa nights.

They must learn more about marching than dancing.

Have you seen the chaos on those rare and invariably temporary occasions when there are more men than women? Fancy expecting men to count as well as learn moves!!

WittyBird
1st-September-2005, 01:04 AM
Even that isn't going to get me to one of those Salsa nights.

They must learn more about marching than dancing.

Have you seen the chaos on those rare and invariably temporary occasions when there are more men than women? Fancy expecting men to count as well as learn moves!!

thats why they only ever move 10 on at a time and why men stand with their hands behind their backs ( so u cant see them using their fingers to do the counting) :rofl:

David Bailey
1st-September-2005, 08:55 AM
Its the only rotation method I have seen used in salsa classes, but they do tend to have a lot of extra ladies.
The salsa class I went to last week had several men over ( :eek: ), but the teacher still moved women on. I guess he figured (correctly) that us men were too dumb to be able to move on.

The scatter method is harder work to explain (and to train the class to do), takes a few weeks for people to get used to, and is messier, but I think it gives more teaching time. In a packed venue, or where there are only 1 or 2 women over, it's probably more hassle than it's worth though. Certainly, it's nicer now in the class at Finchley not to have to faff around "directing traffic" - there's always some woman who decides to go up instead of down a row :rolleyes:

Like all these things, there's probably no best method, it all depends on the class size, the venue, the ratio, etc. But the fact that there are other methods is something all teachers should be aware of.

Lynn
1st-September-2005, 10:21 AM
The salsa class I went to last week had several men over ( :eek: ), but the teacher still moved women on. I guess he figured (correctly) that us men were too dumb to be able to move on. I don't know what it is with salsa here but there are often twice as many women as men. When there is some MJ I have often had more men than women, we had more men in our Lindy class this week - but the guys just don't seem as keen to wiggle their hips in salsa!

Baby Peaches
1st-September-2005, 10:37 AM
If it's explained clearly, and everyone knows what to do then it doesn't really make any difference.

"Slotting people in between couples works, until some idiot decides not to move on because that would (quite correctly) leave them dancing with an empty space, and they're either too important or too stupid to have to wait out a turn like everyone else."

Personally I prefer the nineteen-ladies-on (it usually is ladies) method.

Yes I have been in this situation a couple of times when a lady has decided she doesn't want to move on. You kind of look at the guy with a "what's going on?" look :what: who looks back with an apologetic, slightly awkward look :blush: and she doesn't even acknowledge that you are approximately 1cm from her face trying to be extremely calm and polite by letting her know she should move on. Really you just want to shove her out the way mainly for being so ignorant :angry: . I find this method makes me feel kinda desperate.


My prefered choice would have to be the "let's move 46 ladies round please" method. :clap:

bigdjiver
1st-September-2005, 12:22 PM
I remember a large class at Ashtons where a lady decided that she was not going to move back to sitting out. The teacher did not notice the pile up at the back, and moved on again. The situation thus changed abruptly to men moving on. Some men, and some women dancing as men did, some did not. Some women moved on too. Some women from the jam tried to rejoin the class. There was a blind guy in the middle of this, with a few people guiding him in different directions. The class collapsed in complete chaos. "Grab a partner, twice through, and into freestyle."

Dazzle
1st-September-2005, 12:50 PM
I have voted for the "slotted" method but it depends on the numbers to be moved. Before I explain further the venues I teach at are used to both methods I am going to describe.

If I have up to 8 spare people (usually ladies but I have had 12 spare men before now! :eek: ), I use the train method, 8 ladies on. More than that I use the split method, however, I only use it on the outside rows and don't place spare people on the inner rows as it can put them in harms way when performing the moves. :innocent:

Overall I would say one system can go as wrong as any other and the problem is it only takes one complete muppet to kybosh the whole lot! :sick:

Lynn
1st-September-2005, 01:16 PM
More than that I use the split method, however, I only use it on the outside rows and don't place spare people on the inner rows as it can put them in harms way when performing the moves. :innocent: That makes sense!


Overall I would say one system can go as wrong as any other and the problem is it only takes one complete muppet to kybosh the whole lot! :sick: :yeah:

Almost an Angel
1st-September-2005, 01:42 PM
Which rotation method do you think is best?


Depends on the venue, the amount of people you have in the class and somewhat on the teachers preferred method.

I've used several methods, but it depends upon each situation. If I'm teaching up on stage the queue method (boring old nineteen ladies on) tends to be easiest to manage. Luckily I've not had to deal with there being an extraordinary number of women whereby slotting them in at the front of each row - I''m not sure I can manage this. I have seen people who have made this work and kudo's to them, but i've also been part of classes where this has failed miserably.

If the room allows I prefer to be teaching on the floor, with the people around us in a circle, it's a variation of the 'scatter' method where spare women are slotted in around the circle at various intervals.

I don't think there is any right or wrong rotation method - it depends upon the situation.

Yogi_Bear
1st-September-2005, 01:48 PM
My prefered choice would have to be the "let's move 46 ladies round please" method. :clap:

One drawback to this is the sheer amount oftime it can take to rotate people round to the correct spot, especially when some coming off are coming straight back on, when partners drop out, or when the numbers moving or the direction of movement varies from the previous time...

For me it's the 'scatter' method every time. The scattered people can move quickly to their partner, they can see and practice the move or steps more easily.....and things flow better.

MartinHarper
1st-September-2005, 03:34 PM
For prior discussion (sadly without the excellent poll on this thread):
Rotate or Scatter? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3405)

Unlike folks here, I'm frequently at classes where the numbers are even or very close to even - a fringe benefit of having a significant number of women who can handle both roles.

stewart38
2nd-September-2005, 10:57 AM
It's only once in a blue moon and when there's a Z in the month that numbers are exactly even for classes...

Which rotation method do you think is best?

To make this vaguely scientific, please vote on the assumption that the teacher has explained the method correctly and that it is the normal rotation method at that venue, so most people are used to it. I've assumed extra women because that's normally the case.

Bad old way = moving a queue of 947 women :non-existent yawn icon

Scatter method = extra women EVENLY distributed between couples, e.g. one 'spare' woman for every four couples

What I'm going to christen the 'split' method - extra women are divided into two or more queues and assigned specific rows to rotate around as per queue method - explained properly here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=147193&postcount=49)

Other method - please describe...

If you want a proper poll lets have one :mad:

If you are calling moving extra women on a 'funeral wake method' im assuming there is a hidden bias

As mentioned different things work for differnt venues and numbers and you cant ASSUME any method apart form the 'funeral wake method' has been talk/shown correctly.

Ps there was more men at Fulham yesterday and this blip in women numbers will even itself out no doubt by year end

LMC
2nd-September-2005, 11:14 AM
If you want a proper poll lets have one :mad:

If you are calling moving extra women on a 'funeral wake method' im assuming there is a hidden bias

Yes it's biassed. Are you implying that everyone on here will be unable to see past my feeble attempts at humour and will have their opinion coloured by my words? Because I personally think that they are all more intelligent than that.

Alternatively, maybe I should apologise for forgetting that I am the only biassed and opinionated person on the forum and should therefore not openly display it.


As mentioned different things work for differnt venues and numbers and you cant ASSUME any method apart form the 'funeral wake method' has been talk/shown correctly.
No you can't assume that in the real world. I was talking about "in an ideal world" - where WHATEVER method is used is explained correctly AND (the bit you fail to quote) the method is the one in regular use at that venue so regular attendees will be used to it. In other words, treat all the methods equally - everyone is used to the queue system. I have agreed that the queue system is the simplest one and still do. However, it is also the slowest, which is why I think the other systems are worth considering.


Ps there was more men at Fulham yesterday and this blip in women numbers will even itself out no doubt by year end
Especially since you've advertised it, I'm definitely off to Fulham next week, thanks :D

stewart38
2nd-September-2005, 11:26 AM
Especially since you've advertised it, I'm definitely off to Fulham next week, thanks :D


Someone there said i was the best dance she had all night and that was at 10pm

How long do you have to wait before you can rep someone again ?? Its all new to me . Thanks for all the people who rep me in the past I can see it now

It was very odd walking around as havent had to do that for a while, 5 men on at one stage in the intermediates !!

Russell Saxby
2nd-September-2005, 11:34 PM
Scatter method - been there done that, absolute chaos

It can be hard enough moving people on at the best of times.

As for getting people moving round quicker... you just have to get them into the habit at the start of the class.. start counting them in before they get to their next partner - they will learn quick enough

David Bailey
3rd-September-2005, 08:57 AM
As for getting people moving round quicker... you just have to get them into the habit at the start of the class.. start counting them in before they get to their next partner - they will learn quick enough
Except that there's always one person who can't count, or who decides not to move, or goes the wrong way, or suddenly develops Slow Walking Disorder.

Plus, it takes 10 times as long to move 10 people on as 1. So that's wasted walking time when people could be learning.

Russell Saxby
3rd-September-2005, 09:57 AM
or suddenly develops Slow Walking Disorder. .

or has a partner hanging onto them, trying to show them the move, that they obviously have not got :angry: if only they realised that in moving them on 'x' number, I am trying to fix them up with a partner who knows what they are doing.


Except that there's always one person who can't count, or who decides not to move, or goes the wrong way, or suddenly develops Slow Walking Disorder. .

Yep but this will happen whatever method you choose - scatter or line approach people will always find moving on difficult :tears: :tears:


So that's wasted walking time when people could be learning.

Well I can only go by the :confused: looks I get from 50% of the class, esp beginners, when using the one lady on / scatter approach. Also, the speed in which I can carry on with teaching after a move around. If the moving on is chaos it has a knock on effect on my teaching and peoples learning.

Of course having lots of ladies over is not ideal :( but that is just the way it is.

Now if each lady introduced a few more men - we woud not have this problem :D

But if the scatter approach works for some teachers / venues :clap: :clap:


Russell :flower:

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 08:56 AM
Scatter method - been there done that, absolute chaos

It can be hard enough moving people on at the best of times.

As for getting people moving round quicker... you just have to get them into the habit at the start of the class.. start counting them in before they get to their next partner - they will learn quick enough
If you were devising from scratch a system to rotate partners then surely the scatter system would be the obvious one to use. No-one would come up with a long line of people round the edge. If people can't cope with the concept of moving one place at a time, whether that is into a space or opposite a partner, how can they be expected to cope with moving around n places at a time when n varies, x potential partners or y co-movers drop out, people 'cut corners', rotation changes direction, or whetever? If scattering doesn't work it must be down to a failure of explanation, nothing else :(

El Salsero Gringo
6th-September-2005, 09:09 AM
If scattering doesn't work it must be down to a failure of explanation, nothing else :(You've obviously never watched it happen in a class then. I have.

stewart38
6th-September-2005, 09:12 AM
If you were devising from scratch a system to rotate partners then surely the scatter system would be the obvious one to use. No-one would come up with a long line of people round the edge. If people can't cope with the concept of moving one place at a time, whether that is into a space or opposite a partner, how can they be expected to cope with moving around n places at a time when n varies, x potential partners or y co-movers drop out, people 'cut corners', rotation changes direction, or whetever? If scattering doesn't work it must be down to a failure of explanation, nothing else :(

People still drop out with any method :sick:

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:12 AM
You've obviously never watched it happen in a class then. I have.
Well I have, but I can't understand why it doesn't work better, hence I put it down to excessive conditioning with the 'move 20 ladies on' method and a lack of proper explanation :)

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:14 AM
People still drop out with any method :sick:
Yes, but with the scatter method it doesn't affect things. With rotation, it does :D

El Salsero Gringo
6th-September-2005, 09:18 AM
Well I have, but I can't understand why it doesn't work better, hence I put it down to excessive conditioning with the 'move 20 ladies on' method and a lack of proper explanation :)It doesn't work because people don't listen to the explanation, selfishly don't bother to notice that they should be moving on into a space (and so don't move on at all - which means the 'space' ripples back towards the start of the class) and because the excess people are incapable of distributing themselves reasonably evenly around the room because they can't see where the existing 'spaces' are from floor level.

Believe me, I've spent weeks watching this kind of chaos from the stage (where it's obvious what's going wrong) while the teacher has to get the taxi-dancers to sort it out; meanwhile everyone waits.

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:22 AM
It doesn't work because people don't listen to the explanation, selfishly don't bother to notice that they should be moving on into a space (and so don't move on at all - which means the 'space' ripples back towards the start of the class) and because the excess people are incapable of distributing themselves reasonably evenly around the room because they can't see where the existing 'spaces' are from floor level.

Believe me, I've spent weeks watching this kind of chaos from the stage (where it's obvious what's going wrong) while the teacher has to get the taxi-dancers to sort it out; meanwhile everyone waits.
I can understand that that could happen, and I've seen it for myself. But why? What's so difficult? Either there's something about it that the human brain cannot cope with or, more likely, it needs to be better explained. I think we need a culture change to make it the normal method in mj. Until then, chaos does appear to be the result....but why? Perhaps an application for queueing theory.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-September-2005, 09:26 AM
I can understand that that could happen, and I've seen it for myself. But why? What's so difficult? Either there's something about it that the human brain cannot cope with or, more likely, it needs to be better explained. I think we need a culture change to make it the normal method in mj. Until then, chaos does appear to be the result....but why? Perhaps an application for queueing theory.If you count wrong moving in a line then you have people in front or behind to correct you; you screw up, and somebody's left without a partner, which everyone knows is wrong. So six or seven people will scream at you to get it right.

If you move on wrong with the scatter method (or don't move on into a space when you should) then only one person is inconvenienced - the person behind you - and there's no peer pressure. And since everyone knows there are lone people with no partner but no one is sure where those people are supposed to be, there's no indication of who screwed up.

stewart38
6th-September-2005, 09:27 AM
Yes, but with the scatter method it doesn't affect things. With rotation, it does :D


Of course it does !

someone explain

Anyway as I said i dont care what method is used but scatter isnt always the best ,where is god when you need him ? :mad:

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:34 AM
If you count wrong moving in a line then you have people in front or behind to correct you; you screw up, and somebody's left without a partner, which everyone knows is wrong. So six or seven people will scream at you to get it right.

If you move on wrong with the scatter method (or don't move on into a space when you should) then only one person is inconvenienced - the person behind you - and there's no peer pressure. And since everyone knows there are lone people with no partner but no one is sure where those people are supposed to be, there's no indication of who screwed up.
I'm going to produce an academic paper entitled 'Queueing theory, group norms and peer pressure: an empirical study of modern jive class rotation'.... :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
6th-September-2005, 09:42 AM
I'm going to produce an academic paper entitled 'Queueing theory, group norms and peer pressure: an empirical study of modern jive class rotation'.... :whistle:I'd pick a different name. "Queuing Theory" is something quite different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queuing_theory

David Bailey
6th-September-2005, 09:45 AM
Well I have, but I can't understand why it doesn't work better, hence I put it down to excessive conditioning with the 'move 20 ladies on' method and a lack of proper explanation :)
The scatter method is probably always going to need more care and attention by taxi-dancers, venue managers and teachers, to ensure people are slotted in correctly. It's more work to make it work, in other words. And it's messier, and probably takes up more space.

People are used to a queue system, even a zigzagged one, but the "slotting in and out" system takes more time to understand. So it's also more work for the dancers. And as ESG says, there's more potential for individual screwups / cheats. Finally, if there are only 1, 2 or 3 people over, it's not really any more efficient.

I had the pleasure of watching from the stage last night, and it's certainly a serious extra effort to organise. Also, some women, even in the intermediate class ( :mad: ), somehow thought they were still using the queue system and had to be gently shown what to do.

So, with all these drawbacks, why do it? The answer is that in a not-insanely-overcrowded and five-or-more-women-over venue (i.e. lots of them), it is, at least potentially, much more efficient, takes much less time to move, allows more moves, and gives more teaching time.

stewart38
6th-September-2005, 09:48 AM
I'm going to produce an academic paper entitled 'Queueing theory, group norms and peer pressure: an empirical study of modern jive class rotation'.... :whistle:

well you dont seem to understand the draw backs of the scatter method why not ? :yeah:

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:48 AM
I'd pick a different name. "Queuing Theory" is something quite different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queuing_theory
Well I think queueing theory, which has been applied to the queues for men's and women's lavatories, could be applied to the queues of n females standing at the side of the room waiting to move on.... :grin:

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:50 AM
So, with all these drawbacks, why do it? The answer is that in a not-insanely-overcrowded and five-or-more-women-over venue (i.e. lots of them), it is, at least potentially, much more efficient, takes much less time to move, allows more moves, and gives more teaching time.
:yeah:

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:51 AM
well you dont seem to understand the draw backs of the scatter method why not ? :yeah:
and these drawbacks are...?

Tessalicious
6th-September-2005, 09:52 AM
Well I think queueing theory, which has been applied to the queues for men's and women's lavatories, could be applied to the queues of n females standing at the side of the room waiting to move on.... :grin:*sits quietly munching popcorn watching innocent poll develop into full-on mathematical debate*

El Salsero Gringo
6th-September-2005, 09:53 AM
Well I think queueing theory, which has been applied to the queues for men's and women's lavatories, could be applied to the queues of n females standing at the side of the room waiting to move on.... :grin:No, because the service time is deterministic, not random, and because the entire queue is served at once rather than one at a time. Queuing theory is mainly concerned with metricating things like the expected waiting time and the variance of the expected waiting time.

It works very well for toilet queues, bank and post office queues, computer networks, and telephone calls. I'm not really clear how it would apply to Ceroc or what it would tell you.

Yogi_Bear
6th-September-2005, 09:56 AM
well, maybe it might offer some insights, maybe not, but for now I'm going to have to duck out of this and get some proper work done :sick:

Stuart M
6th-September-2005, 10:50 AM
I'd pick a different name. "Queuing Theory" is something quite different:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queuing_theory
Can I just say, personally I resent being valued at one Erlang unit.

Dreadful Scathe
6th-September-2005, 11:06 AM
Because I personally think that they are all more intelligent than that.

Huh? By the way - my monitor is now upside down because of your avatar and Im standing on my head to read this.



Alternatively, maybe I should apologise for forgetting that I am the only biassed and opinionated person on the forum and should therefore not openly display it.

Indeed. Bad bad BAAAD LMC :)

Anyway, people who go to dancing are stupid and can't count. That may be a generalisation though :)

carolinemcewan
6th-September-2005, 11:26 AM
Although I voted for the old skool way of doing it, reading the comments does make me think about being slotted in when convenient. However, I can't really blame the women for standing their ground when we are instructed to "be quick otherwise you could still be out!" Granted most people realise that it's only fair to take turns, but it's not frowned on by teachers etc. if someone cuts in front of you, even though it's their turn out. Rotation in this way does work but cut the whole 'snooze you lose' crap!

Magic Hans
6th-September-2005, 11:27 AM
Funeral Wake method works fine for me .... so long as, it doesn't get any more than about 10.

a) it keeps the rotation time fairly reasonable, and
b) reduces chance for miscounting.

Obvious disadvantage is that some queuers will have to wait for more that 1 rotation to come on. Expectionally more than 2.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-September-2005, 11:32 AM
Obvious disadvantage is that some queuers will have to wait for more that 1 rotation to come on. Expectionally more than 2.How's that?

LMC
6th-September-2005, 11:53 AM
*sits in back with Tessa & popcorn*

Right, what other can of worms can I go and open? Or is two in one week two more than enough? :blush:

Any method other than the queue has the potential to create a fine ol' mess to start with - if scatter is the *normal* method at that venue, then most people should be used to it... from what DJ has said, this doesn't seem to necessarily be the case.

Although I've been arguing against queue, I haven't really been arguing "for" scatter. All I want is less time rotating and more time DANCING.

Clive Long
6th-September-2005, 12:05 PM
The problem is obviously gender imbalance.

Hence - for those on the "wrong side" of the gender divide for that night either

1. Do the short-straw method much beloved of 50's drama movies where one is deciding which women and children to deny access to the life-boats. If you draw a short-straw you are ejected from the dance venue.

or

2. Offer quick and dirty gender re-assignment programmes to even up the male-female ratio.

May seem ruthless - but very time efficient. :wink:

Next problem please. :devil:

CRL

bigdjiver
6th-September-2005, 12:13 PM
:devil: meanwhile I am daydreaming of a beginners class that has "men" moving on using the scatter method. The new arrivals see a lady dancing as lead in a gap. The ladies go and find a gap, the guys try and partner with a "lead". At the side there are a queuing theorist and a human factors theorist arguing over whose deficiencies are to blame ... :devil:

David Franklin
6th-September-2005, 12:19 PM
All I want is less time rotating and more time DANCING.A lot of which has less to do with the rotation method than with how the teachers approach things. One thing I've really noticed at non-MJ venues, or at CerocAustralia, is how much faster the teachers expect everyone to rotate. Even with the 'funeral queue', they really zip things along. There's no pre/post-amble, no introduce yourself to your partner, it's "move on 3, {2 second pause}, and 5, 6, 7, 8 start". And you typically rotate a lot more often. Which starts a 'virtuous circle', as it allows you to rotate only 2-3 people even if there are 10 women over, because even if you sit out 3 turns, that's still only 90 seconds or so. MJ classes in the UK take a much more leisurely approach, and there's a relatively long time between each rotation.

Having done both, my feeling is the MJ method is more friendly, but you get more done using the "rush 'em through" approach.

Russell Saxby
6th-September-2005, 01:01 PM
A lot of which has less to do with the rotation method than with how the teachers approach things. One thing I've really noticed at non-MJ venues, or at CerocAustralia, is how much faster the teachers expect everyone to rotate. Even with the 'funeral queue', they really zip things along. There's no pre/post-amble, no introduce yourself to your partner, it's "move on 3, {2 second pause}, and 5, 6, 7, 8 start". And you typically rotate a lot more often. Which starts a 'virtuous circle', as it allows you to rotate only 2-3 people even if there are 10 women over, because even if you sit out 3 turns, that's still only 90 seconds or so. MJ classes in the UK take a much more leisurely approach, and there's a relatively long time between each rotation.

Having done both, my feeling is the MJ method is more friendly, but you get more done using the "rush 'em through" approach.

:yeah: :yeah:

but then again I did suggest that last week :D

Magic Hans
12th-September-2005, 08:13 PM
How's that?

Well .... rotating 12 people only 10 round means .... last two wait for the next.

Rotating 65 people round 10 at a time .... last 5 sit out 7 times!!

[ ... was I being unclear??? .... or perhaps you, sarcastic? :confused: ]

:flower: :flower:

Yogi_Bear
12th-September-2005, 09:06 PM
Having come back to this thread after a period of absence, I think someone ought to try the approach typically adopted in small classes of Argentine tango - "Find yourself another partner". The ensuing chaos in a large MJ class would be fun to watch :D

Yogi_Bear
12th-September-2005, 09:09 PM
:devil: meanwhile I am daydreaming of a beginners class that has "men" moving on using the scatter method. The new arrivals see a lady dancing as lead in a gap. The ladies go and find a gap, the guys try and partner with a "lead". At the side there are a queuing theorist and a human factors theorist arguing over whose deficiencies are to blame ... :devil:
the solution, of course, is to ban women dancing as leads. Then the scatter method would work just fine, even for those for whom the concept of moving one place at a time is hard to grasp :rolleyes:

Dorothy
13th-September-2005, 10:17 AM
There are distinct advantages in the queuing method:-

1. Allows the ladies time to have a well-earned seat, and also to see how/how not to do it.

2. It clears the ladies off the floor and out of the way.

I was once in a class where groups of us were assigned to rows, it was a shame because we only had the chance to dance with the men in that particular row.

Yogi_Bear
13th-September-2005, 10:23 AM
There are distinct advantages in the queuing method:-

1. Allows the ladies time to have a well-earned seat, and also to see how/how not to do it.

2. It clears the ladies off the floor and out of the way.

I was once in a class where groups of us were assigned to rows, it was a shame because we only had the chance to dance with the men in that particular row.
there are pros and cons. When assigned to a row, you should change to another row if you'd welcome more variety - that applies to leaders (assuming they are not rotating) as well...
There are advantages in seeing how to do it when you are right there in the thcik of it and can walk it through opposite an imaginary partner..

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 10:37 AM
Well .... rotating 12 people only 10 round means .... last two wait for the next.

Rotating 65 people round 10 at a time .... last 5 sit out 7 times!!

[ ... was I being unclear??? .... or perhaps you, sarcastic? :confused: ]

:flower: :flower:OK, yes, but you don't rotate 10 round if there are 65 people waiting - you rotate 65 people round. (Although one hopes it never gets quite that bad.) What's the point of rotating fewer people than are waiting out?

Yogi_Bear
13th-September-2005, 10:47 AM
OK, yes, but you don't rotate 10 round if there are 65 people waiting - you rotate 65 people round. (Although one hopes it never gets quite that bad.) What's the point of rotating fewer people than are waiting out?
If there are 65 waiting, you abandon the class as unworkable.. :D
I would have to admit that in those circumstance the scatter method would't work too well, either..

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 10:53 AM
If there are 65 waiting, you abandon the class as unworkable.. No, you just employ a second teacher to teach the 65 a line dance while they're waiting. It would look great!

Yogi_Bear
13th-September-2005, 10:55 AM
No, you just employ a second teacher to teach the 65 a line dance while they're waiting. It would look great!
:rofl:

LMC
13th-September-2005, 10:57 AM
No, you just employ a second teacher to teach the 65 a line dance while they're waiting. It would look great!
Or if sufficient men, teach double trouble instead?

Tessalicious
13th-September-2005, 11:05 AM
If there are 65 waiting, you abandon the class as unworkable.. :D
I would have to admit that in those circumstance the scatter method would't work too well, either..If there are 65 extra ladies you teach a double trouble class. That'll keep the ladies amused, and probably make some of the guys rather happy too...
the solution, of course, is to ban women dancing as leads. :what: :tears:
Having come back to this thread after a period of absence, I think someone ought to try the approach typically adopted in small classes of Argentine tango - "Find yourself another partner". The ensuing chaos in a large MJ class would be fun to watchAt Squins they tried this method during the ballroom part of the class - the result being that the more, um, self-assertive ladies always ended up with partners and the shy ones always without fail ended up on the side unable to practise it through. This is basically because the majority of the men just stood there waiting to be pounced on and told what to do. There has to be something Freudian behind that, I'm sure.

Lou
13th-September-2005, 11:25 AM
I saw a rather interesting variation to the rotation method last night.

It was a customary 9 ladies on. So far so good. Then, halfway through the class, the teacher had a brainwave to also rotate the men around 10, in order that the ones at the back of the room moved to a position closer to the stage. Needless to say, one temperamental (& uppity, natch) man then dropped out & went to the bar. Which meant more ladies over! I guess that's one experiment that won't be repeated... :whistle:

Yogi_Bear
13th-September-2005, 11:31 AM
I saw a rather interesting variation to the rotation method last night.

It was a customary 9 ladies on. So far so good. Then, halfway through the class, the teacher had a brainwave to also rotate the men around 10, in order that the ones at the back of the room moved to a position closer to the stage. Needless to say, one temperamental (& uppity, natch) man then dropped out & went to the bar. Which meant more ladies over! I guess that's one experiment that won't be repeated... :whistle:
Rotating sections of the class so that everyone has a chance to be at the front and see what's going on is normal in many Lindy classes, especially when taught at the big weekenders. Depending on the logistics, it has to have advantages.

bigdjiver
13th-September-2005, 12:23 PM
I saw a rather interesting variation to the rotation method last night.

It was a customary 9 ladies on. So far so good. Then, halfway through the class, the teacher had a brainwave to also rotate the men around 10, in order that the ones at the back of the room moved to a position closer to the stage. Needless to say, one temperamental (& uppity, natch) man then dropped out & went to the bar. Which meant more ladies over! I guess that's one experiment that won't be repeated... :whistle:I was at a class where most of the guys could not see the footwork, and it was a disaster for most. Moving the men around would have solved the problem. Policy should not be decided by a few uppity individuals.

Yogi_Bear
13th-September-2005, 12:41 PM
I was at a class where most of the guys could not see the footwork, and it was a disaster for most. Moving the men around would have solved the problem. Policy should not be decided by a few uppity individuals.
I agree - it's a good idea for both leaders and followers to move round and see what's being taught from different perspectives. Those at the back will otherwise only see anything if the people at the front sit down from time to time. Anything that helps people to see footwork has got to be an advantage. Anyone who objects to moving should be in a fixed couple (not that I would encourage those anyway :really: ) yb

robd
13th-September-2005, 12:50 PM
I was at a class where most of the guys could not see the footwork, and it was a disaster for most. Moving the men around would have solved the problem. Policy should not be decided by a few uppity individuals.

:yeah:

We did a fairly simple 'intermediate' routine last night as the beginners were encouraged to join in since the usual consolidation class room was not available. The last move was a 1st Move triple step and the teacher moved the couples at the back to the front in order that they could see the footwork and then returned couples to their previous positions. Worked very well (moving people around that is, not my triple steps :sad: ). People were still dropping out from time to time, causing problems on the count round but not due to the footwork demo.

Robert

frodo
13th-September-2005, 07:25 PM
I saw a rather interesting variation to the rotation method last night.

It was a customary 9 ladies on. So far so good. Then, halfway through the class, the teacher had a brainwave to also rotate the men around 10, in order that the ones at the back of the room moved to a position closer to the stage. Needless to say, one temperamental (& uppity, natch) man then dropped out & went to the bar. Which meant more ladies over! I guess that's one experiment that won't be repeated... :whistle:

But ( given a good reason to leave the class - maybe the guy was dangerously tired or not feeling well) this seems an advantage - it is a reasonable way to leave the class if in the minority gender ).

Allows someone in the minority gender, if they can do only part of the class to participate so could reduce imbalance.

I think it's an excellent idea for lots of reasons and deserves a longer term trial.

frodo
13th-September-2005, 07:33 PM
t Squins they tried this method during the ballroom part of the class - the result being that the more, um, self-assertive ladies always ended up with partners and the shy ones always without fail ended up on the side unable to practise it through. This is basically because the majority of the men just stood there waiting to be pounced on and told what to do. [/SIZE]

This may improve though as people got used to it. The waiting to be pounced on is not my experience.

How well this works possibly depends critically on the teacher and how much he / she emphasises swapping around so everybody gets a dance.

I can see why a ballroom class might like this method as it allows selecting partners by height.

El Salsero Gringo
13th-September-2005, 08:22 PM
This may improve though as people got used to it. The waiting to be pounced on is not my experience.

How well this works possibly depends critically on the teacher and how much he / she emphasises swapping around so everybody gets a dance.

I can see why a ballroom class might like this method as it allows selecting partners by height.No one has mentioned the bus stop system yet, which Hannes and Amy (and others no doubt) used in their ballroom classes, for the progressive dances: the ladies queue at one side and as the men dance past the head of the queue they drop off their existing partner and pick up a new one.

El Salsero Gringo
21st-September-2005, 03:17 PM
I spotted another disadvantage with the slotting-in method of rotation on Monday. It was taking an age for the last lady of the end to make her way round to the first man; it seemed that it never occured to anyone that they might come straight back on again and that the whole class was waiting for them.

Lou
21st-September-2005, 03:19 PM
I spotted another disadvantage with the slotting-in method of rotation on Monday. It was taking an age for the last lady of the end to make her way round to the first man; it seemed that it never occured to anyone that they might come straight back on again and that the whole class was waiting for them.
Ah... but if there was a spare lady in the slot at the top of the first row, it wouldn't be a problem - so it's down to the teachers to organise it, should they choose to rotate by slotting.

LMC
21st-September-2005, 03:20 PM
I spotted another disadvantage with the slotting-in method of rotation on Monday. It was taking an age for the last lady of the end to make her way round to the first man; it seemed that it never occured to anyone that they might come straight back on again and that the whole class was waiting for them.
Easily resolved by making a 'spare' slot just in front of the first leader :D

EDIT: :worthy: Lou

Lou
21st-September-2005, 03:21 PM
Easily resolved by making a 'spare' slot just in front of the first leader :D
:yeah: snap! :rofl:

LMC
21st-September-2005, 03:21 PM
:yeah: snap! :rofl:
JINX!!!

bigdjiver
21st-September-2005, 09:41 PM
I had thought it possible, but thought it was too ridiculous ...
I heard a lady complaining yesterday about "all move on". Allegedly she was at a class where the women outnumbered the men by more than two to one, and the teacher moved them all on. So she walked all around the class and found herself sitting out again. The teacher did not realise, nobody complained loudly enough, and the same thing happened again.

Gill (Norwich)
21st-September-2005, 10:21 PM
I had thought it possible, but thought it was too ridiculous ...
I heard a lady complaining yesterday about "all move on". Allegedly she was at a class where the women outnumbered the men by more than two to one, and the teacher moved them all on. So she walked all around the class and found herself sitting out again. The teacher did not realise, nobody complained loudly enough, and the same thing happened again.
Think at that point I would have made for the bar :rolleyes: either that or commandered (sp?) a man all for myself :whistle:

Yogi_Bear
22nd-September-2005, 10:11 PM
The experience of Southport last weekend has convinced me of the need for a scientific study of partner rotation - especially when you virtually have to take part as fixed couple to have any chance of figuring out what you're trying to pick up. Unfortunately in a blues class there were more men waiting to come on than there were non-fixed women on the dance floor.... :eek:

Tessalicious
31st-January-2006, 12:02 PM
I had an epiphany the other day on this topic, so thought I would resurrect the thread to bring it to your attention.

The scatter method, or the 'go find a partner' method would work fine in any other country in the world, but in the UK we have to use the queueing method. Why, I hear you cry? Because we're British - queueing is what we do best (along with the gossiping that the ladies in the queue can engage in).

TA Guy
31st-January-2006, 12:18 PM
I've been to nights where they use methods other than the stock 'long queue' method. They are all seemed a better alternative, but regardless of how long the venue has been using them, where I went, they always seem to go wrong at some point. Badly wrong, and somehow, presumably because they are that little bit more complicated, took longer to sort out. Simple is good in my book.

stewart38
31st-January-2006, 12:21 PM
I had an epiphany the other day on this topic, so thought I would resurrect the thread to bring it to your attention.

The scatter method, or the 'go find a partner' method would work fine in any other country in the world, but in the UK we have to use the queueing method. Why, I hear you cry? Because we're British - queueing is what we do best (along with the gossiping that the ladies in the queue can engage in).


yes that works if no one else joins the class :wink: