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robd
18th-August-2005, 02:42 PM
An interesting class last night - lots more women than men (as usual - :D for the gents, :sad: for the ladies) and a whole shedload of first nighters. A lady work colleague was on her second night and was struggling a little with the routine during rotation but coped fine when she and I worked through it in freestyle. She said that it had gone wrong a lot with the new men in rotation, as you would expect I guess. This got me to thinking about the format of the beginners class and whether a change to the format to ensure that as far as possible, beginner women were matched with experienced men and vice versa would be beneficial. I guess this would mean two groups rotating at any one time with endless potential for confusion - though with up to 11 rotating last night, beginners class overran significantly anyway. I do think this would provide a benefit to the newcomers though. I guess the other obvious difficulty is in where do you draw the line as to who sits in which camp (beginner/experienced)?

Has anywhere tried anything similar? Does it sound just too complex to organise?

Robert

ps I wonder if last night's extra deficit of men is related to the football game? It's a symptom of my Ceroc addiction that I didn't even know there was a game until I heard the result this morning whilst maybe a year or so ago I never missed an International.

ducasi
18th-August-2005, 02:47 PM
Two immediate problems I see...

I'm not sure I'd want to be an "experienced" dancer if I was forced to dance only with beginners.

Beginners girls and guys should be able to meet each other during class.

Donna
18th-August-2005, 02:56 PM
Two immediate problems I see...

I'm not sure I'd want to be an "experienced" dancer if I was forced to dance only with beginners.

Beginners girls and guys should be able to meet each other during class.

But remember when you first started...didn't you find it easier to dance with someone who was experienced? you learn better. :)

ducasi
18th-August-2005, 03:01 PM
But remember when you first started...didn't you find it easier to dance with someone who was experienced? you learn better. :) Of course... I love the beginner's class – it's just nice sometimes to have a wee respite now and then with another non-beginner. :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
18th-August-2005, 03:04 PM
But remember when you first started...didn't you find it easier to dance with someone who was experienced? you learn better. :)It's best to dance with a mixture of abilities. If you only dance with people who are better than you, it's extremely demoralising for you, and very very dull for them. Also when two beginners get to dance together they realise that they are not the only person in the room who 'doesn't get it' yet.

Running a successful dance class not only involves teaching people to dance, it involves making it sufficiently entertaining, and not too humiliating, so that people come back the next week. The 'lucky dip' element of the classes is one of the best things in that respect.

Finally, the trouble that even rotating one group around the room causes convinces me that to organise two rotating groups would waste more time than is feasible.

Sorry.

Paul F
18th-August-2005, 03:08 PM
ps I wonder if last night's extra deficit of men is related to the football game? It's a symptom of my Ceroc addiction that I didn't even know there was a game until I heard the result this morning whilst maybe a year or so ago I never missed an International.

I was anticipating a serious lack of men last night too but I was pleasently surprised. We had about 160 people with even numbers!! Judging by the result I bet they were glad they came dancing!
Maybe its just me assuming that all guys love football :sick: I find it good to send me sound asleep :)

Lynn
18th-August-2005, 03:10 PM
Also when two beginners get to dance together they realise that they are not the only person in the room who 'doesn't get it' yet. :yeah: In my first few lessons on hol I think I asked everyone I got on rotation if it was new to them or not. I might have been looking for some reassurance. Obviously in a beginners class you expect to find other beginners. I think that it can be helpful if several more experienced dancers are available to help beginners with any aspect of the class they were getting stuck with. Isn't that one of roles of taxis?

under par
18th-August-2005, 03:17 PM
Another thought I had a few weeks ago was to try and get experienced dancers on the line where the extra(usually) ladies come back on to the line.

Having sat out or stood out a rotation to come back on to line and try to complete the "new" part of lesson with an absolute beginner means the ladies miss out twice.

and can be very demoralising for them.


Just a thought don't know what you might think!!!!

DavidB
18th-August-2005, 03:46 PM
I wonder if last night's extra deficit of men is related to the football game?
There wasn't any football last night. The English Collective of Comedy Players presented their new farce "The Tivoli Gardens". Described as a 'delightful juxtaposition of professionals and amateurs', it follows the trials and tribulations of two men - Robinson and Calamity. Rather than playing a simple straight man to Calamity's superb clown, the genius of this production is the completely straight first act. This lulls the audience into a relaxed state, totally unprepared for the mayhem that follows.

Not to be outdone, the Scottish Academy of Drama (SAD) presented their new rock opera based on the words of Robbie Burns "Aus' Tra'ia". This roughly translates as "Oh s**t we're leading, what do we do now". Full of emotion, grit and enterprise, it works superbly for 80 minutes. Sadly due to funding cuts, the last 10 minutes had to be scrapped, and in its place a short cameo from their previous artistic director Bertie Vogts was inserted.

Donna
18th-August-2005, 03:58 PM
Of course... I love the beginner's class – it's just nice sometimes to have a wee respite now and then with another non-beginner. :flower:

Of course it it. I do try to dance with a least four or five beginners in my venue and then that's it....NO MORE! How come Cameron Diaz turned into an ice cream??? :D

Russell Saxby
18th-August-2005, 04:06 PM
When I am on stage teaching, I try and keep an eye for those beginners that are really struggling.

If I spot one, I try to judge the next move round so that they get paired up with an on / off duty taxi, or someone I know to be experienced.

Obviuosly you can only work this to help out one beginner at a time - but it does sometimes help.

Russell

Rhythm King
18th-August-2005, 04:16 PM
There wasn't any football last night. The English Collective of Comedy Players presented their new farce "The Tivoli Gardens". Described as a 'delightful juxtaposition of professionals and amateurs', it follows the trials and tribulations of two men - Robinson and Calamity. Rather than playing a simple straight man to Calamity's superb clown, the genius of this production is the completely straight first act. This lulls the audience into a relaxed state, totally unprepared for the mayhem that follows.

Not to be outdone, the Scottish Academy of Drama (SAD) presented their new rock opera based on the words of Robbie Burns "Aus' Tra'ia". This roughly translates as "Oh s**t we're leading, what do we do now". Full of emotion, grit and enterprise, it works superbly for 80 minutes. Sadly due to funding cuts, the last 10 minutes had to be scrapped, and in its place a short cameo from their previous artistic director Bertie Vogts was inserted.
:rofl: :worthy:

Donna
18th-August-2005, 04:18 PM
When I am on stage teaching, I try and keep an eye for those beginners that are really struggling.

If I spot one, I try to judge the next move round so that they get paired up with an on / off duty taxi, or someone I know to be experienced.

Obviuosly you can only work this to help out one beginner at a time - but it does sometimes help.

Russell

I agree this is the best way to do it. There's only one teacher I know that does that.

ducasi
18th-August-2005, 04:39 PM
How come Cameron Diaz turned into an ice cream??? :D Better chance of being licked. :wink:

Donna
18th-August-2005, 04:49 PM
Better chance of being licked. :wink:
:rofl:

Paul F
18th-August-2005, 05:17 PM
There wasn't any football last night. The English Collective of Comedy Players presented their new farce "The Tivoli Gardens". Described as a 'delightful juxtaposition of professionals and amateurs', it follows the trials and tribulations of two men - Robinson and Calamity. Rather than playing a simple straight man to Calamity's superb clown, the genius of this production is the completely straight first act. This lulls the audience into a relaxed state, totally unprepared for the mayhem that follows.

Not to be outdone, the Scottish Academy of Drama (SAD) presented their new rock opera based on the words of Robbie Burns "Aus' Tra'ia". This roughly translates as "Oh s**t we're leading, what do we do now". Full of emotion, grit and enterprise, it works superbly for 80 minutes. Sadly due to funding cuts, the last 10 minutes had to be scrapped, and in its place a short cameo from their previous artistic director Bertie Vogts was inserted.

:cheers: Very well put ....and from what I hear, very accurate :D

Dazzle
19th-August-2005, 01:15 PM
I guess this would mean two groups rotating at any one time with endless potential for confusion - though with up to 11 rotating last night, beginners class overran significantly anyway.

Not on the night in question, but on a football afflicted occasion I have had 25 ladies to move around. I had to move them around in two groups initially as I didn't even have that many men :tears: . So interspersing was out as well! :sick:

The hardest part of any class always seems to be moving people around! You can try and put any number of things in place, but it only takes one wayward dancer to **** the whole thing up for you! :rofl:

Russell Saxby
19th-August-2005, 01:19 PM
The hardest part of any class always seems to be moving people around! You can try and put any number of things in place, but it only takes one wayward dancer to **** the whole thing up for you! :rofl:

:yeah: :yeah:

TiggsTours
19th-August-2005, 01:36 PM
As a female taxi dancer, there's one thing I feel very strongly about, and that is female taxi dancers standing in as men in the beginners class. We're not just there to even the numbers up, we're there to help the beginners to understand what they are doing. As beginners, men always need more help than women, and so the female taxis dancing as women in class is vital! What I do instead is take one of the ladies when I'm in the queue and do the class on the side, always making sure I partner a different lady each time.

I don't agree with the concept of only partnering beginners with more experienced dancers. Beginners always find it easier when partnered with a more experienced dancer, for obvious reasons, but that means they are not really learning to lead / follow the move. Its important to do the move with someone who doesn't know what they are doing either, that way, when you get it right, you know that you led it right!

Dazzle
19th-August-2005, 01:58 PM
I don't agree with the concept of only partnering beginners with more experienced dancers. Beginners always find it easier when partnered with a more experienced dancer, for obvious reasons, but that means they are not really learning to lead / follow the move. Its important to do the move with someone who doesn't know what they are doing either, that way, when you get it right, you know that you led it right!

:yeah:

You can also end up with women always leading the men and that's the last thing we men need! :eek:

Donna
19th-August-2005, 02:12 PM
As a female taxi dancer, there's one thing I feel very strongly about, and that is female taxi dancers standing in as men in the beginners class. We're not just there to even the numbers up, we're there to help the beginners to understand what they are doing. As beginners, men always need more help than women, and so the female taxis dancing as women in class is vital! What I do instead is take one of the ladies when I'm in the queue and do the class on the side, always making sure I partner a different lady each time.

I don't agree with the concept of only partnering beginners with more experienced dancers. Beginners always find it easier when partnered with a more experienced dancer, for obvious reasons, but that means they are not really learning to lead / follow the move. Its important to do the move with someone who doesn't know what they are doing either, that way, when you get it right, you know that you led it right!

I'm feeling really lazy today so can't be bothered quoting any bits. :rolleyes:

I've heard that is can be a bit risky for females to take the male lead because if they get to used to it, it may be that it could affect their ability to follow properly. I remember the first partner dancing I ever tried was WCS, and I was always told to loosen up. Eventually I did, but I know if i do the mans bit now, I'd most probably end up back at square 1. :sad:

Yes, men do need more help from women.. and this can be very tricky. I've tried plenty of times. Sometimes it works, but you'll always get the awkward ones that don't like being told what to do by a women. Men love being in control don't they?? :D Have you ever tried leading a man when trying to show him a move? Feels more like you're having a wrestling match!! :D (Just waiting for the likes of ESG of DavidJames to jump in on this one now. Cringe cringe. :o )

I find if a woman dances with an experienced dancer...it's more challenging for her therefore she has to focus a lot harder which helps her to follow better because beginner males don't have a very strong lead to start off with until they have mastered the moves first.

There's this young lad in my class who is still at beginner level, and I always make sure I get a dance with him. At first it was me leading him and everytime he does goes floppy again (pardon the expression :blush: ) I will just go through this double handed pulling and pushing motion and tell him to pull and push harder until I feel he is leading me. It works! and now he's starting to get the hang of it. He has really struggled with it but I have never seen someone who struggles so much and is still determined to keep on at it. All a beginner wants, is to spend a bit of time with someone who is experienced whether they are a taxi dancer or not and they'll soon be up to speed so then they too can show other beginners how it's done. If nobody did this, I think people would just get fed up easily.

Minnie M
19th-August-2005, 02:19 PM
..........I don't agree with the concept of only partnering beginners with more experienced dancers. Beginners always find it easier when partnered with a more experienced dancer, for obvious reasons, but that means they are not really learning to lead / follow the move. Its important to do the move with someone who doesn't know what they are doing either, that way, when you get it right, you know that you led it right!
:what: Yes and No
IMO Yes if you are a lead, No for the follower

From personal experiences - I am trying to learn Lindy and have been told (by one of my really good Lindy friends) that I must dance with the beginners (for the reason Tiggs said above) if I am ever going to learn it properly - absolute disaster :tears: how can you follow a lead who isn't leading and has no idea of timing

Therefore I suspect that pairing up beginners will be like the blind leading the blind AND as most of us girlies are a little impatient :innocent: , you will find the ladies backleading and therefore learning bad habits

BTW it gets me mad :mad: when I see beginner ladies leading to make the numbers even - Women should NOT (IMHO) lead until they are competetant in following, I wish they would make that a rule :angry:

El Salsero Gringo
19th-August-2005, 02:20 PM
Yes, men do need more help from women.. and this can be very tricky. I've tried plenty of times. Sometimes it works, but you'll always get the awkward ones that don't like being told what to do by a women. Men love being in control don't they?? :D Have you ever tried leading a man when trying to show him a move? Feels more like you're having a wrestling match!! :D That's not because the man's being stroppy, or controlling. It's because it's extremely difficult - if not impossible - to learn a move by being backlead through it. The sensation of having your limbs moved by your partner ("here, then you move this arm here, then this one here...") bears no relation to the sequence of muscles you need to activate to lead the self-same move. We're 'wrestling' because were trying to activate the correct muscles so we learn something. Unless you allow the man to do that so he can learn to lead it, you might as well be writing him instruction on how to jump to the moon.
(Just waiting for the likes of ESG of DavidJames to jump in on this one now. Cringe cringe. :o ) There you are. I'm being restrained.

Donna
19th-August-2005, 02:48 PM
That's not because the man's being stroppy, or controlling. It's because it's extremely difficult - if not impossible - to learn a move by being backlead through it. The sensation of having your limbs moved by your partner ("here, then you move this arm here, then this one here...") bears no relation to the sequence of muscles you need to activate to lead the self-same move. We're 'wrestling' because were trying to activate the correct muscles so we learn something. Unless you allow the man to do that so he can learn to lead it, you might as well be writing him instruction on how to jump to the moon.There you are. I'm being restrained.

Sometimes telling them where to put this limb and that limb does work. Maybe you found it difficult at first? I don't know, but I found that once some guys know what goes where they just start leading. :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
19th-August-2005, 02:55 PM
Sometimes telling them where to put this limb and that limb does work. Maybe you found it difficult at first? I don't know, but I found that once some guys know what goes where they just start leading. :flower:Yes, telling someone what limb goes where is an excellent way of teaching - pioneered by Ceroc (TM) I think, and evolved into a series of classes with a microphone-equipped teacher on stage. But yanking a man's limbs around for him ("that's the way to do it!") - isn't. Hence the wrestling match.

As for me - I (still) find everything difficult.

David Bailey
19th-August-2005, 03:00 PM
Yes, men do need more help from women.. and this can be very tricky. I've tried plenty of times. Sometimes it works, but you'll always get the awkward ones that don't like being told what to do by a women.

Unless you're very sure that you can quickly and easily correct a clear and simple mistake, I'd be wary of doing this. If you're experienced, and dancing with a beginner, maybe a quick bit of visual / tactile coaching is OK, but don't try to explain verbally what to do, you usualy won't have the time. And if you get it wrong, you're aggravating things.

I experienced this last week in a salsa class - I was right, she was wrong, but I was too polite at the time to tell her so, so she carried on blithely assuming she knew the One True Way to do things.


Men love being in control don't they?? :D
In a male-led partner dance, yes...


Have you ever tried leading a man when trying to show him a move? Feels more like you're having a wrestling match!! :D
If you want to coach a man, take him to one side and demonstrate what he should do by showing him how to lead, on another partner.

As ESG already stated, moving a man's hands for him is not a good idea, unless he's causing you pain of course.

Partner dances are male-led dances. And whilst there are lots of areas for interpretation and invitation once you get experienced / used to your partner, it's still mainly up to the man to lead, especially in a class.


(Just waiting for the likes of ESG of DavidJames to jump in on this one now. Cringe cringe. :o )
Two for the price of one - hey, it's Friday afternoon...

bigdjiver
19th-August-2005, 03:08 PM
...From personal experiences - I am trying to learn Lindy and have been told (by one of my really good Lindy friends) that I must dance with the beginners (for the reason Tiggs said above) if I am ever going to learn it properly - absolute disaster :tears: how can you follow a lead who isn't leading and has no idea of timing ...As a result of the VJ celebrations I found myself at a Lindy dance. I intended to sit out and watch. Unfortunately the organiser said something about Bingo cards. I saw one, and it was obviously not a "Bingo" card in the usual sense. So I made the mistake of asking what it was about, and had one thrust upon me.

BINGO (an introduction game): Their card was 6*6 with the numbers 1 to 36 upon it. Each cardholder is allocated a unique number, written on top, 36 Men, 36 Women. After a dance names and numbers are exchanged, and the name is written on the numbered square. Prizes for the first hoprizontal and vertical lines, and complete card completed. This is a very good way of encouraging mixing, and the acquisition of names.

I have had a few Lindy lessons, and felt forced to ask ladies to dance, so that they stood a chance of winning the big prize. I let most of the track go, and then tried to lead a few basic Lindy moves.
absolute disaster :tears: how can you follow a lead who isn't leading and has no idea of timing ...I thought I was leading ...

TiggsTours
19th-August-2005, 03:11 PM
:what: Yes and No
IMO Yes if you are a lead, No for the follower

From personal experiences - I am trying to learn Lindy and have been told (by one of my really good Lindy friends) that I must dance with the beginners (for the reason Tiggs said above) if I am ever going to learn it properly - absolute disaster :tears: how can you follow a lead who isn't leading and has no idea of timing

Therefore I suspect that pairing up beginners will be like the blind leading the blind AND as most of us girlies are a little impatient :innocent: , you will find the ladies backleading and therefore learning bad habits

BTW it gets me mad :mad: when I see beginner ladies leading to make the numbers even - Women should NOT (IMHO) lead until they are competetant in following, I wish they would make that a rule :angry:

Sorry, probably didn't make myself clear enough. It is really the beginner guys that need to dance with other beginner ladies, as well as more experienced, to make sure they really are getting it. The guys only get better by dancing with a good cross-section of all abilities, but in turn we ladies benefit, more good leads! :grin: :drool:

TiggsTours
19th-August-2005, 03:16 PM
That's not because the man's being stroppy, or controlling. It's because it's extremely difficult - if not impossible - to learn a move by being backlead through it. The sensation of having your limbs moved by your partner ("here, then you move this arm here, then this one here...") bears no relation to the sequence of muscles you need to activate to lead the self-same move. We're 'wrestling' because were trying to activate the correct muscles so we learn something. Unless you allow the man to do that so he can learn to lead it, you might as well be writing him instruction on how to jump to the moon.There you are. I'm being restrained.

I've found somthing that helps the guys to learn how to lead a move recently is instead of back-leading then getting them to repeat what we just did, I just say, you want me to go there, how do you think you can get me there? For example, on a hand-jive, "now we both need to stay on the spot and twist so I'm facing one way, and you're facing the other, how are you going to make that happen?" They always get it then, once there, you can just go through things like adjusting hand-holds and placements etc.

Lee
19th-August-2005, 03:17 PM
When I am on stage teaching, I try and keep an eye for those beginners that are really struggling.

If I spot one, I try to judge the next move round so that they get paired up with an on / off duty taxi, or someone I know to be experienced.

Obviuosly you can only work this to help out one beginner at a time - but it does sometimes help.

Russell

Russell, That's why you are one of the better teachers in London!! :worthy:

:eek: Don't get the wrong idea, I don't fancy you or anything!!! :flower: :hug: :rofl:

Lee

Minnie M
19th-August-2005, 04:29 PM
......... I thought I was leading ...
Ah......... you may be a beginner Lindy dancer - but definitely not a beginner dancer :flower: massive difference :yeah:

El Salsero Gringo
19th-August-2005, 05:46 PM
I've found somthing that helps the guys to learn how to lead a move recently is instead of back-leading then getting them to repeat what we just did, I just say, you want me to go there, how do you think you can get me there? For example, on a hand-jive, "now we both need to stay on the spot and twist so I'm facing one way, and you're facing the other, how are you going to make that happen?" They always get it then, once there, you can just go through things like adjusting hand-holds and placements etc.Absolutely. Any method that gets the man's brain to move his own limbs is just great. A method that moves his limbs for him is not.

frodo
19th-August-2005, 06:39 PM
Sometimes telling them where to put this limb and that limb does work. Maybe you found it difficult at first? I don't know, but I found that once some guys know what goes where they just start leading. :flower:
I think this certainly works in the cases where the move is actually very simple, though that is not apparent when watching it.

MartinHarper
20th-August-2005, 12:13 AM
It's because it's extremely difficult - if not impossible - to learn a move by being backlead through it.

It is possible, because this is how they teach people who've had strokes how to walk again. However, this process takes years, and Ceroc aims to teach people to dance a little quicker than that.


Men love being in control don't they??

Most folks like to feel that they have a purpose. When guys are told that their purpose is to lead the dance, they may get huffy when women "back-lead". When women are told that their purpose is to make the dance look beautiful, they may get huffy when men "show off". Understandable, really.

Baruch
20th-August-2005, 12:39 AM
Sometimes telling them where to put this limb and that limb does work. Maybe you found it difficult at first? I don't know, but I found that once some guys know what goes where they just start leading. :flower:
It doesn't work for me. If a lady tries to backlead in class it always makes it much harder for me to learn that particular move. The whole point is for me to learn to lead it.

This sort of thing happens a lot more in beginners' classes, but then of course you expect it from beginners. I've lost count of the number of times I've been about to put a beginner into a spin, only to find out she's already half-way through it before I have a chance to lead it. This isn't a problem with beginners, as they are still learning about lead and follow. It's a bit more of a pain when it happens in intermediate classes, though. By the time someone starts the intermediate class, they really should have an understanding of the lead-follow dynamic.

JoC
20th-August-2005, 01:07 AM
Two for the price of oneor is it...?

David Bailey
20th-August-2005, 11:34 AM
or is it...?
:rofl:

Yes, strange how we're never seen together at the same time...

But obviously, ESG is the one who wears black, has very short hair, posts a lot on the forum, and demos at a certain North London venue.

I'm.... errr.... :eek:

killingtime
7th-September-2005, 10:46 AM
I've heard that is can be a bit risky for females to take the male lead because if they get to used to it, it may be that it could affect their ability to follow properly.

Interesting. I had a go at following last night and I was really bad at it. I'm actually hoping that being able to follow will improve my signaling in leading (as well as being ready for Lady Steals :what:). I think I feel far to much into the trap of anticipating, not following my partners lead, not picking up on returns... it was just like I was a complete beginner (maybe even worse than a complete beginner) so I certainly think that leading has affected my following but I'm hoping to overcome that (when I get the chance to practice).

Anyway on to the topic at hand. I think it would be better to try and keep a mix of experiences; that range helps everyone learn how to dance the many different styles that a random population of people presents. I'm not sure if there would be a way to try and get more of the intermediates to turn up to a beginners class to balance the ratio a little.