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New_to_London
15th-August-2005, 03:39 PM
Having attended Howard’s and Nicola’s excellent workshop, a few weeks ago (Links’ n’ Drops), I have dramatically increased my repertoire of dips, drops, and seducers, and have been practising these moves in freestyle a fair bit, lately.

With regular dance partners, of course, you already know their experience and comfort level with such moves. However, the vast majority of people I dance with I have never seen before. And, in the large London venues, where you are constantly moving from one dance partner to another, asking “are you comfortable with dips & drops,” is quite awkward, especially if the noise level is high, and you can’t hear each other.

So, I’m still struggling with the best approach to introduce such moves and gauge the woman’s comfort level with them. And, if the other thread (“how many drops?”) is any indicator, it seems that others are struggling with this too.

One approach I have tried a number of times is to proceed into a first move dip (with raised left hand), and watch the reaction on the woman’s face as I *slowly* begin to lower her. If the woman begins to panic, doesn’t know what to do, or arches her back in awkward or potentially dangerous ways, that is an indication not to proceed with the dip. If, on the other hand, she seems comfortable with the move, then I try progressively more advanced dips and seducers.

I would be curious to hear other people’s comments on how they like to introduce (or be introduced into) dips and drops with completely new partners.

Lynn
15th-August-2005, 03:46 PM
And, in the large London venues, where you are constantly moving from one dance partner to another, asking “are you comfortable with dips & drops,” is quite awkward, especially if the noise level is high, and you can’t hear each other. Not as awkward though as doing a dip/drop with someone who doesn't like them or has no experience and will possibly then avoid dancing with you in future.

Having said that, I don't mind if a new partner is able to work out my comfort level and work from there. My feelings on dips and drops entirely depends on my partner, there are some I wouldn't feel comfortable doing them with, and others I feel very comfortable and safe as its clear they have good technique. But I can't figure all that out if I haven't danced with them, so even if someone asked 'are you comfortable', I would still like them to 'build up' with a seducer or two to get the feel for weight balance etc anyway.

stewart38
15th-August-2005, 04:18 PM
. If, on the other hand, she seems comfortable with the move, then I try progressively more advanced dips and seducers.

I would be curious to hear other people’s comments on how they like to introduce (or be introduced into) dips and drops with completely new partners.

Your obviously an 'advanced dancer' but not sure how to ask a lady for a second dance

This is all very confusing :sick:

New_to_London
15th-August-2005, 05:06 PM
Your obviously an 'advanced dancer' but not sure how to ask a lady for a second dance

This is all very confusing :sick:
It shouldn’t be confusing at all! Individual dance moves can be lead simply through hand movements. And, a first dance request can be made with body language alone. Yet, there is something awkward about a second dance request (hence the separate thread).

If a verbal exchange is required, than that makes it more difficult. Maybe I’m strange, but I’ve never been comfortable trying to talk in a loud environment--I’m rather soft-spoken. And, I certainly don't like shouting at a lady.

Seahorse
15th-August-2005, 08:43 PM
I don't go there unless I know my partner well... and then never on a busy dancefloor...

...actually that's one of pet hates (I'm in the wrong thingy)... seeing blokes drop some poor lass so that her head (and neck) is at the level of kicking feet is complete lunacy.

I was in H and N's links and drops class (was amazing)... and Howard did point out not to drop unless you were absolutely sure you could pull it off... and also showed the girls how to avoid a drop.

RogerR
15th-August-2005, 09:41 PM
If a dance goes really well add a little - micro - dip or a small lean. really a no stress no strain move but an indicator of where you intend to lead the dance. then see the reactiom, If the feedback is positive try something slightly bigger. If it works then talk and ASK your partner at the next track break, discuss your repertoire of moves see if she agrees and if the situation is right. enough space warm enough not tired or too drunk!

Or you simply ask the lady "can I throw you about" as the invitation to dance! -certainly gets an answer!!

Andreas
15th-August-2005, 11:56 PM
One approach I have tried a number of times is to proceed into a first move dip (with raised left hand), and watch the reaction on the woman’s face as I *slowly* begin to lower her. If the woman begins to panic, doesn’t know what to do, or arches her back in awkward or potentially dangerous ways, that is an indication not to proceed with the dip. If, on the other hand, she seems comfortable with the move, then I try progressively more advanced dips and seducers.

That is similar to how I proceed. There is the rare occasion when I ask "how much goes" :D but in general I gauge ability and comfort by doing (relatively) simple things. So far I have not heard complaints, so the approach appears to be working. On the other hand, if I straight away feel like I don't want to do dips/drops (with that person?) then I obviously will not even attempt one :D

:flower:

under par
16th-August-2005, 03:55 AM
You can tell I'm at work and tired because I saw the title of this thread and immediatley thought....

"Dips I would like you to meet Drops!" :whistle:

Anna
16th-August-2005, 05:41 AM
Pansies :rolleyes:

Call me naive, but I don't see what all the fuss is about whether you should put a woman into drops or not ? :confused:

When I was beginner/intermediate I was thrilled when guys put me into drops, dips, leans, laybacks, mini-aerials etc as I saw it as a chance to learn moves that I otherwise wouldn't learn in class for rather a long time and develop my dancing a little further!

Ladies, as long as you can figure out early on how to hold your weight, I doubt you will ever have to seriously worry about who you do or not do drops with.

That being said, I've still been plonked on my bottom/head many a time, fortunately for me though, I've now lost all feeling in my head, backside and feet so this is no longer a problem.. :whistle:

And come on, how many potentially dangerous things can a women possibly do in a Seducer? (and i mean the kind where she's across your knee, not the unsupported drop)..

Even the Swan Lift isn't dangerous to an unknowing woman if the man executes it properly..

Anna - NO FEAR

El Salsero Gringo
16th-August-2005, 08:07 AM
Pansies :rolleyes:

Call me naive, but I don't see what all the fuss is about whether you should put a woman into drops or not ? :confused:

Anna - NO FEARFrom what I've seen of Ceroc down under, you have

a) much more room to freestyle (most nights here you can't even take a small step for treading on someone's toe, let alone safely perform a seducer)

b)younger, fitter men who don't have bad backs, dodgy knees and weak wrists and know how to hold themselves properly, even before they approach their partner

c)lighter slimmer women who are capable of taking their own weight in a seducer without collapsing about their wobbly, sticky-out tummys and who land (rather than splashdown) from an aerial without twisting their arthritic ankles.

Most of these things don't apply to Ceroc in the UK. Sorry.

Actually, perhaps that's just the gossip. Would anyone who's been to Ceroc in both hemisphere's like to comment?

David Franklin
16th-August-2005, 08:27 AM
From what I've seen of Ceroc down under, you have

a) much more room to freestyle
b)younger, fitter men
c)lighter slimmer women

Most of these things don't apply to Ceroc in the UK. Sorry.

Would anyone who's been to Ceroc in both hemisphere's like to comment?As you ask! Firstly, don't forget, Australia's a big place - I saw a fair bit of variation even in Sydney. One venue (Mosman?) was about as crowded as you'll get in London; that didn't stop people doing aerials close enough that I "felt the wind". The others venues had considerably more space. A lot more dips and drops were taught than over here, and the women were generally a lot better at holding their weight.

But probably the most important thing - the average age was a fair bit younger across the board. This not only has implications for (b), (c) as you suggest, but I think (generalising again!), younger people tend to have far more of an attitude of "what's a few bruises from time to time?". [There are practical reasons for this - it does take longer to heal as you get older. More of us have long term injuries to deal with. And more of us have jobs where "sorry, I need a week off because I pulled a muscle dancing" isn't terribly acceptable].

I'm guessing very few ladies in the UK consider "plonked on my head many a time" as acceptable...

David Bailey
16th-August-2005, 09:10 AM
Pansies :rolleyes:
No, please, say what you mean...


Call me naive, but I don't see what all the fuss is about whether you should put a woman into drops or not ?
Hah. You think this is fuss, wait until you see the post-Southport 100-page analysis thread at the end of September...


I've still been plonked on my bottom/head many a time,
And, err, this is what the fuss is about. Whilst I admire your resilience, it gets a little less nice being plonked as you get older...


And come on, how many potentially dangerous things can a women possibly do in a Seducer? (and i mean the kind where she's across your knee, not the unsupported drop)..
I agree seducers aren't so bad, but in a crowded (400? 500?) venue such as London's Hammersmith, I shudder to think what could happen to a woman''s head, if left at foot-kicking level...

Injuries can be real - just because you haven't yet had one (for which I'm glad), don't believe it won't happen.

A professional ballroom-trained lady of my acquaintance, who's absolutely one of the best dancers I know, got badly injured just over a week ago - her face got injured during the dance, so much so that she needed stitches over her eyebrow.

It's like driving a car - doesn't matter how good you are, there's always the other person.

But, I guess we are a bit old-farty sometimes :blush:

Cruella
16th-August-2005, 09:19 AM
You can tell I'm at work and tired because I saw the title of this thread and immediatley thought....

"Dips I would like you to meet Drops!" :whistle:
Aren't there any criminals for you to catch? Doesn't seem much like work sittng on the forum! :flower:

Andreas
16th-August-2005, 09:21 AM
From what I've seen of Ceroc down under, you have

a) much more room to freestyle (most nights here you can't even take a small step for treading on someone's toe, let alone safely perform a seducer)

Not in all places is there more space. Though, some people do not appear to care.


b)younger, fitter men who don't have bad backs, dodgy knees and weak wrists and know how to hold themselves properly, even before they approach their partner

The average of Jivers down-under is about 10-15 years younger than in the UK. It sounds a lot but I think it isn't too far off. Does that also mean there is a shortage of wisdom? Could well be, though that is not solely with them young folks. In fact, the mostdangerous (and silly) moves in unsuitable environment I have seen have been done by seniors who think they need to point out their state of fitness!


c)lighter slimmer women who are capable of taking their own weight in a seducer without collapsing about their wobbly, sticky-out tummys and who land (rather than splashdown) from an aerial without twisting their arthritic ankles.

Body tension in NZ and OZ is developed a lot more because people are taught dips and drops in classes. However, the weight issue: HECK NO! If anythhing than the average dancer, though older, is slimmer in the UK!


:flower:

David Bailey
16th-August-2005, 09:27 AM
Aren't there any criminals for you to catch? Doesn't seem much like work sittng on the forum! :flower:
Hey, let's not throw too many stones - I shudder to think how much my work productivity has suffered over the past few months...


However, the weight issue: HECK NO! If anythhing than the average dancer, though older, is slimmer in the UK!
Darn - up until that point I was thinking of emigrating :)

David Franklin
16th-August-2005, 09:30 AM
The average of Jivers down-under is about 10-15 years younger than in the UK. Does that also mean there is a shortage of wisdom?To quote Robert Heinlein:
It's amazing how much "mature wisdom" resembles being too tired...

Donna
16th-August-2005, 09:58 AM
Body tension in NZ and OZ is developed a lot more because people are taught dips and drops in classes. However, the weight issue: HECK NO! If anythhing than the average dancer, though older, is slimmer in the UK!

You know even quite a plump lady can be put into drops very well and aerials as well! I remember seeing this really skinny bloke once (and I mean, he was skinny alright!! ;) ) and he was doing massive aerials with this woman who was er, badly overweight...so it is possible. Maybe, even though she was huge, she could carry her weight 'somehow' but then it goes to show it's not down to the man's strength either...it's technique.

Andreas
16th-August-2005, 10:00 AM
To quote Robert Heinlein:


:yeah: :rofl: :rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
16th-August-2005, 10:07 AM
You know even quite a plump lady can be put into drops very well and aerials as well! I remember seeing this really skinny bloke once (and I mean, he was skinny alright!! ;) ) and he was doing massive aerials with this woman who was er, badly overweight...so it is possible. Maybe, even though she was huge, she could carry her weight 'somehow' but then it goes to show it's not down to the man's strength either...it's technique.Just because he was skinny, does not mean he was weak. My recent and limited experience of a few aerials tells me that having pumped-up arms and chest is no help to lifting a woman if the rest of your body - to which the arms are attached, like the torso and abdominals and so on - are weak. And you can pack a lot of strength in your torso without looking like Arnie.

And much as I'd like to believe that I could put a 13 stone (85kg) woman on my shoulder for the g-lift with nothing but a bit of technique, I'm sure a lot of that 'technique' would include increasing my core strength considerably.

As for the woman carrying her weight: if she doesn't have the right stability, position, stiffness then any aerial is going to be twice as hard; but even if she does it perfectly you are still carrying a very considerable portion of your own bodyweight up in the air. I remain convinced that strength matters.

Chef
16th-August-2005, 10:22 AM
You know even quite a plump lady can be put into drops very well and aerials as well! I remember seeing this really skinny bloke once (and I mean, he was skinny alright!! ;) ) and he was doing massive aerials with this woman who was er, badly overweight...so it is possible. Maybe, even though she was huge, she could carry her weight 'somehow' but then it goes to show it's not down to the man's strength either...it's technique.

It is quite surprising the amount of weight that one can get airborne if both parties are aware of what is required of them, they work together, and control of the timing and balance is the responsibility of only one of the parties.

A big power to weight (power of the lifter to weight of the flyer) is really useful when you don't have the knowledge for the move (or things go wrong). Recent experiences have made me think that having a very strong lifter and a very light flyer can mean that you never need to develop technique.

I did have one experience of watching a really big man in an aerials competition picking up and throwing a woman around who clearly had no idea of what was going to happen to her or what she needed to do. It was like a car crash, awful to watch but strangely fascinating.

Donna
16th-August-2005, 10:23 AM
Just because he was skinny, does not mean he was weak. My recent and limited experience of a few aerials tells me that having pumped-up arms and chest is no help to lifting a woman if the rest of your body - to which the arms are attached, like the torso and abdominals and so on - are weak. And you can pack a lot of strength in your torso without looking like Arnie.

And much as I'd like to believe that I could put a 13 stone (85kg) woman on my shoulder for the g-lift with nothing but a bit of technique, I'm sure a lot of that 'technique' would include increasing my core strength considerably.

As for the woman carrying her weight: if she doesn't have the right stability, position, stiffness then any aerial is going to be twice as hard; but even if she does it perfectly you are still carrying a very considerable portion of your own bodyweight up in the air. I remain convinced that strength matters.

Of course it requires a bit of strength but I have been told by an aerials wizard that it is mainly technique. You ever tried going to an aerials workshop??

El Salsero Gringo
16th-August-2005, 10:39 AM
Of course it requires a bit of strength but I have been told by an aerials wizard that it is mainly technique. You ever tried going to an aerials workshop??I have that pleasure still to look forward to. And in the absence of seeing demonstrably 'weak' man doing aerials with a heavy partner, I don't believe that a good proportion of what is 'just' technique isn't actually strength in the right places.

Donna
16th-August-2005, 10:48 AM
I have that pleasure still to look forward to. And in the absence of seeing demonstrably 'weak' man doing aerials with a heavy partner, I don't believe that a good proportion of what is 'just' technique isn't actually strength in the right places.

I'm sure you'll see i'm right though when you do to an ariels workshop.

David Bailey
16th-August-2005, 10:57 AM
I'm sure you'll see i'm right though when you do to an ariels workshop.
That's when he gets whiter-than-white, yes? :innocent:

Anna
16th-August-2005, 10:57 AM
Injuries can be real - just because you haven't yet had one (for which I'm glad), don't believe it won't happen.


*Fade In Dream Sequence Music...*

Once Upon A Time,
In a land far, far away in the Southern Hemisphere, the land of the long white cloud..

A young maiden named Anna was dancing with an overly enthusiastic tall man.

This tall man was approx 6 foot 5 and little Anna was only 5 ft 3, anyway... the tall man decided he would put Young Anna into the "Around The World" aerial..

Young Anna thought he was just putting her into a double hip throw.. and so at the end of the jump each side, Anna the miniscule maiden attempted to "get down" while the O.E.G (OverEnthusiastic Giant) attempted to fling her behind his back..

Anna fell approx 6 feet to the ground and landed on her back and heels with an almighty clump, a clump so huge in fact, that the shank in both her dance shoes broke and the heels bent up into the arch of the shoe..

*Fade Out*

Yes.. yes that hurt a lot..

But like I said, NO FEAR :D

David Bailey
16th-August-2005, 11:03 AM
*Fade In Star Wars Theme Tune...*

A long time ago, in a Hemisphere far far away..."

Anna looks up defiantly "I'm not afraid"

DavidYodaJames pauses ominously, then say "You will be"

*Fade Out*

Anna
16th-August-2005, 11:09 AM
Oh pffft.. :rolleyes:

NO FEAR!!!

- Anna-GirlWonder, Brave in the face of Imminent Peril

Trish
16th-August-2005, 11:10 AM
Pansies :rolleyes:

Call me naive, but I don't see what all the fuss is about whether you should put a woman into drops or not ? :confused:

etc etc
Anna - NO FEAR

:yeah:

I love drops and anything else where the guy is throwing me around and haven't got much fear of them really - most of the time and I wish the British men were a bit braver/more foolish sometimes! The only time I don't like this is when the guys have no idea what they're doing, and no technique, so that for example they are bending forward on a seducer and you worry that they are going to fall on top of you. In this case I will a) try to give them some pointers about this if they'll listen, or b) ask them not to do drops, and if they ask me why, I'll tell them I feel like they're going to drop me!

I do think the fact that the Aussies are taught more technique and taught drops more often makes them more confident though. Most of the drops I've been taught in classes (as opposed to workshops) in this country have been taught pretty quickly and sketchily, and unless someone is interested in getting things right, the less experienced guys don't always support the girls in the right way.

As far as dancing with some guy you've never met before, myself I'm not too bothered if they ask me if I do drops, but I prefer it if they build up the difficulty level and get used to my weight/balance. If I wasn't happy I'd support my own weight rather than letting some guy drop me to the floor. If I had a injury and didn't want to do drops for that reason, I think that's up to me to say so.

El Salsero Gringo
16th-August-2005, 11:17 AM
I'm sure you'll see i'm right though when you do to an ariels workshop.Quite possibly.
That's when he gets whiter-than-white, yes?That's not going to happen.

In fact I lied, I did an aerials workshop with Andy and Rena on Ealing Common in the summer of 2001, I think - but it was too long ago and too soon after I started to dancing to draw any conclusions now.

Donna
16th-August-2005, 11:20 AM
Anna fell approx 6 feet to the ground and landed on her back and heels with an almighty clump, a clump so huge in fact, that the shank in both her dance shoes broke and the heels bent up into the arch of the shoe..[/I]

[B]*Fade Out*

Yes.. yes that hurt a lot..

But like I said, NO FEAR :D

I bet it did!!!b You know that happened to me too...a few months in another land far far away...(far away from where you are obviously) called Lamb land (aka Wales) Someone (YES YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!) :D :D :D decided to flip me over his back, out arms out to the side. There wasn't enough power in the flip I don't think...so, next minute all I could see was the floor travelling at high speed towards my head. somehow I managed to tuck my chin into my chest and that made me land on my back...well, legs first. I had massive bruises on my feet, legs hip and back. Not nice is it?? These men just love beating us up sometimes!! :D :D :D

Anna
16th-August-2005, 11:27 AM
I think its high time that we give a little payback.. ;)

All in favour of punishing all men who have ever injured a woman by dropping them 6 feet onto a cold, hard, wooden floor and then trampling on them..

Please raise your hand... :D

:rofl:

Donna
16th-August-2005, 11:28 AM
I think its high time that we give a little payback.. ;)

All in favour of punishing all men who have ever injured a woman by dropping them 6 feet onto a cold, hard, wooden floor and then trampling on them..

Please raise your hand... :D

:rofl:

I'm the first to raise my hand to that!! :D

Mary
16th-August-2005, 11:41 AM
Anna and Donna, even your avatars look like they are talking to one another. :D

M

Donna
16th-August-2005, 11:54 AM
Anna and Donna, even your avatars look like they are talking to one another. :D

M
:rofl: :rofl: YES THEY DO DON'T THEY?!!! :rofl:

David Bailey
16th-August-2005, 11:57 AM
OK, I'm trying to reconcile the "horror stories of evil people who've dropped me" and the "I want more drops, be more adventurous" topics here.

Is this some kind of masochistic scene? Anna, aren't you too young for that sort of thing? :whistle:

Donna
16th-August-2005, 12:09 PM
:D
OK, I'm trying to reconcile the "horror stories of evil people who've dropped me" and the "I want more drops, be more adventurous" topics here.

Is this some kind of masochistic scene? Anna, aren't you too young for that sort of thing? :whistle:

ok you'll find out more from my new thread headed 'HORROR STORIES OF EVIL PEOPLE WHO'VE DROPPED ME'.

Anna
17th-August-2005, 04:40 AM
Is this some kind of masochistic scene? Anna, aren't you too young for that sort of thing? :whistle:

No Comment :whistle:


- Anna The Great Destroyer