Dance ambitions...

[LMC]

What are your personal ambitions in dancing?

This isn't intended to turn into a discussion on the merits of whether competitions are good or bad, or whether dancers who enter competitions are "better" dancers - these have been discussed here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2183&page=1) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5210&page=1) and probably elsewhere too. I was tempted to do a poll but I'm feeling lazy and not that scientific, just curious. Yep, it's a nosy thread... share? :flower:

[Lynn]

I think my personal ambitions in dancing change as I go along. I remember when it was simply to be able to master some basics, then spinning was something I was (and still am) working on. I did a comp once and my ambition was very simple - to not actually fall over and to enjoy myself. (And I achieved both points and had a wonderful day).

I have nothing specific at the moment, I just want to get better and better. To the point where the good dancers ask me for a dance because they enjoy dancing with me.

And I don't think I will ever feel I have 'arrived' at the point where I don't keep wanting to improve, though of course I will reach a point at which my ability (or rather lack of it) will be a limiting factor.

[robd]

1 - To reach the same level of competence as my partner

2 - To get through a dance in freestyle without apologising for a move going wrong :sick:

3 - To keep improving with every class, freestyle and workshop that I attend

4 - To continue enjoying it :grin:

[Andreas]

In short: To reach my potential.

Dance to me is a for of exercise that, no matter how much I practice, I will never be able to perfect. There is always more to learn. I have done a lot of sports in the past and usually got to a point where I could not make significant progress by improving the technical aspect but had to increase strength to move ahead. With dance this is totally different. So it is a challenge to myself.

I don't need external motivation to keep working.

If I reach a point where I can dance perfectly well with every person that I have a dance with, that'd be something that'd make me very happy. Yet, it is still a long way to got. Dancing to the level of your partner is one of the greatest challenges that I found (apart from moving ones body).

[LMC]

You hit the nail on the head with ambitions changing as your dancing improves Lynn. I can relate to the spinning, mine has improved beyond recognition, but I still get off days more frequently than I would like!

At my age and level of fitness, I can't see me ever getting anywhere with formal competing, and "never say never" but I can't see myself ever wanting to put in the practice needed to get to that standard (or having the self-discipline). I'm having far too much fun just dancing!

Apart from the obvious overall "become a better dancer", my specific ambitions at the moment are:
- learn/improve my blues dancing - learned a few moves recently and 'me like' :drool: (can't wait until Southport, blues workshops here I come!)
- to be better at following some of the walks (Columbian springs to mind...)
- to be able to do ochos (hmmm, maybe that should go in the stretch targets, I'm *awesomely* bad at them)

"Stretch targets" are
- to be a good enough follower to get to the second round of a DWAS (I've been very fortunate with partners in the, er, two I've been in so far and felt bad for letting them down, although it's been fun!)
- to be a good enough and fun enough partner to be queued up for, thus making it easy for me to dance every track (fairly close last night, discounting being out to "freshen up" or being at the bar, I think I only sat out 5 or 6 tracks because there were 6 MEN on in intermediates class, Icey and I were literally jumping for joy - well, I was, she's not as naughty in class as me).

I think rob has put in the "bottom line" though - to continue enjoying it :clap:

[Lou]

- to be better at following some of the walks (Columbian springs to mind...)
- to be able to do ochos (hmmm, maybe that should go in the stretch targets, I'm *awesomely* bad at them)
Oooh! Good call. May I borrow these goals too, as I'm absolutely hopeless at both of those things? Plus, if you pick up any tips - would you mind sharing?! :)

[Lynn]

- learn/improve my blues dancing - learned a few moves recently and 'me like' :drool: (can't wait until Southport, blues workshops here I come!) Not just the workshops - the blues room! :drool: I haven't actually 'learned' much blues dancing, you get the basics and I think its mainly instinctive following (well it is with me anyway). A good track, a good lead, and you just 'flow' through the dance... :drool:

[LMC]

Oooh! Good call. May I borrow these goals too, as I'm absolutely hopeless at both of those things? Plus, if you pick up any tips - would you mind sharing?! :)
As long as you share any tips you happen to pick up with me then that's a deal :cheers:


the blues room :drool:
having followed the Southport in June thread :yeah: - can't wait :clap: (yeah, I know that THAT isn't a blues move....)

[ducasi]

- to be a good enough follower to get to the second round of a DWAS [...]
- to be a good enough and fun enough partner to be queued up for [...] The first one in my immediate ambition – only three weeks to go! :eek:

The second one is a longer-term ambition. :nice:

I'll go away now and try to think of some more of my own... :rolleyes:

[Daisy Chain]

What are your personal ambitions in dancing?



To have men queueing up to dance with me

Daisy

(An Ever Hopeful Little Flower)

[David Bailey]

I think I only sat out 5 or 6 tracks because there were 6 MEN on in intermediates class
I know, I got there towards the end, it was very weird seeing men moving on - like some kind of alternate universe or something, I got a little confused...

Great dancing with you last night, by the way :flower:

I'm waiting for my first non-great Chesham night - it's been two years now, still hasn't happened. With DJ Joe, hopefully it never will :)

[Clive Long]

I like this thread.

Not really sure about my answer though.

If I close my eyes and try and visualise how I would like to see my dancing (I know, I know, I'm dancing for my partner ... )

1. I'd like to be able to dance slow. Seeing as I have never done a blues class - my ineptitude in this style is not surprising.

2. I'd like to be able to dance Argentinian Tango to a level that any fairly able female dancer would say yes to a request for a dance.

3. To somehow develop a style that slides between MJ and ballroom. Bit confusing for the follower I would guess. Need to go regularly to Jango for this I think.

4. To be able to recognise when my partner wants space to do her stuff - and then timing the "reconnection".

So I need to knuckle down if I am to achieve even one of these. :sad:
However, learning dance is fun :grin: so it's just making the time.



<< snip >>
Apart from the obvious overall "become a better dancer", my specific ambitions at the moment are:
< snip >>
- to be able to do ochos (hmmm, maybe that should go in the stretch targets, I'm *awesomely* bad at them)

I feel that a lot is being made about these. They are great but in my understanding one of the technically least difficult of Tango-type moves.
I have a very firm idea about how these should be done. When we meet next let me explain -we'll try - and then you can let me know if my understanding of Ochos is very different from the mainstream


I think rob has put in the "bottom line" though - to continue enjoying it :clap:
5. To be able to enjoy dancing - rather than concentrating on what I can't do - yep, that'll be the biggest challenge.

Clive

[LMC]

I know, I got there towards the end, it was very weird seeing men moving on - like some kind of alternate universe or something, I got a little confused...

Great dancing with you last night, by the way :flower:

I'm waiting for my first non-great Chesham night - it's been two years now, still hasn't happened. With DJ Joe, hopefully it never will :)
1. Did you get there in time for Bodyrocker though or do I have to do that dare? (DJ Jo played it without me having to ask :rofl: )

2. Thank you, you too :flower:

3. :yeah: - I always have a fab time there :clap:

Clive - re: ochos - I'm ahead of you, ask Lory :wink: - & thanks :nice:

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

What are your personal ambitions in dancing?

Firstly: great question!

Ok, i'd like to dance for many reasons. One reason is that as I am an actress, and shall be 'making a living' as it were, doing that, I feel that it is good to have as many 'strings to my bow' as possible, I mean if I could sing, as well as dance I could easily add musical theatre as a job possiblity.
Also, kind of related to point 1. I love to perform, and see dancing as a way of performing, and expressing myself. I'll admit that I love having people watching me dance...wether i'm dancing well is another matter :whistle: I'm just a big show off really :rofl:
I'd love to be a great dancer as I love the way it makes me feel, and a couple of years from now, i'd like to be able to dance effortlessly...with grace, and style, but of course i'd still like to always have something left to learn...
I'd also like to learn to lead, as I think it would be great to lead as well as follow, and i've found that it has, so far, also helped my following!
Competing would be good too...

That's all, I think :whistle:
Ash

[Lynn]

I'd love to be a great dancer as I love the way it makes me feel... i'd like to be able to dance effortlessly...with grace, and style .... That's all, I think :whistle: You're not very ambitious are you? :wink: :whistle:

[Gary]

I've achieved my first ambition (get to the stage where most girls are happy to dance with me).

Things I'm working on now are: getting some interesting footwork-y things happening, especially things which I can lead; and being less of a "lead hog" when dancing with the fabulous follows who have lots of extra stuff they can bring to the dance, if I give them half a chance.

I'm sure that the horizon will continue to stretch away from me, however far I travel.

[David Bailey]

{ snip excellent list - if I weren't too lazy, that'd be my list too! }
Re: Ochos:

I feel that a lot is being made about these. They are great but in my understanding one of the technically least difficult of Tango-type moves.
These are the "Lady moving foot around and back, then other foot around and back" things, yes? (once again I demonstrate my invincible ignorance about dance move names)

If so, then yes, they're the staple "basic" filler Tango move I believe, from what I dimly recall of Tango.

That doesn't mean they're not great - and perhaps shows the difference in complexity between even advanced MJ and basic Arg Tango - but I'm sure there are more complex moves in Tango.


1. Did you get there in time for Bodyrocker though or do I have to do that dare? (DJ Jo played it without me having to ask :rofl: )
:tears: I missed it - was it in the class?

Also, is it Jo or Joe?

[Minnie M]

To dance to the music and not think about what my feet are doing (especially Lindy)

[El Salsero Gringo]

Re: Ochos:

That doesn't mean they're not great - and perhaps shows the difference in complexity between even advanced MJ and basic Arg Tango - but I'm sure there are more complex moves in Tango.
I don't think it's a matter of complexity of movement - but it's a real challenge in terms of lead and follow, the more so because it's a step outside the usual MJ 'feel'.

[wicked blue]

- to be able to do ochos (hmmm, maybe that should go in the stretch targets, I'm *awesomely* bad at them)



Here here!! That is a definate dance ambition to do those ocho things!! I'm absolutely definately the worlds worst!! :sad:

[Lynn]

Oops, I'm maybe be doing the ochos wrong then as I find them easy enough :blush: Maybe I have my own version :rofl: And I don't think I've ever been led to do them, just if a guy is leaving me space to do something and has both my hands I would sometimes do them. (From what I gathered, the key is to wait till both ankles are parallel before you do the pivot?)

[El Salsero Gringo]

And I don't think I've ever been led to do themTherein lies the rub: ochos have to be led by the man, especially as to timing - you can do them slow, fast, backwards, forwards, bigger, smaller whatever the guy thinks fits best with the music. But that only works if the lady is listening carefully to the lead, and the lead is clear enough to be heard.

[ducasi]

I don't think it's a matter of complexity of movement - but it's a real challenge in terms of lead and follow, the more so because it's a step outside the usual MJ 'feel'. :yeah:

In class I have no great problem with ocho steps, "leading", and then matching my partner perfectly. Strangely enough, in freestyle a First Move (Ocho Steps) invariably turns into ... a First Move.

But as I don't think they're all that I currently have no great ambitions to be able to lead them. :shrug:


These are the "Lady moving foot around and back, then other foot around and back" things, yes? You're maybe thinking of the same steps as the rest of us, but that's not how I'd describe them. I've always seen ocho steps being matched by the lead, although often the follower will start them first.

You step left foot from behind in front of right foot, round and plant it beside, to the right of right foot. Then bring right foot round, forward in front of left foot and plant it back where it came from to the left of left foot. Repeat to taste. Of course there's lots of twisting and stylish things going on at the same time which I'm no-where near mastering, but the basic footwork is fairly straight-forward. (At least, I think so.)

[El Salsero Gringo]

I've always seen ocho steps being matched by the lead, although often the follower will start them first.In basic ochos the guy steps side to side using his hands at hip height to twist the lady one way, step her back (or forwards) then twist her 180 degrees and forward again. His footwork doesn't match the lady's.

If the follower starts them, then they're not being led - certainly not in a Tango sense.

[Lynn]

Therein lies the rub: ochos have to be led by the man, especially as to timing - you can do them slow, fast, backwards, forwards, bigger, smaller whatever the guy thinks fits best with the music. But that only works if the lady is listening carefully to the lead, and the lead is clear enough to be heard.Sorry, I should have been clearer - I haven't been led them in MJ, but I have very occasionally found myself doing them when 'playing' (and usually I'm following the music and my feet do their own thing without me consciously thinking about it too much!). I have been led them in the very few Arg Tango classes I have done, which is where I learnt them. I have never been taught them in the MJ context so maybe they are a little different.

[Tiggerbabe]

If the follower starts them, then they're not being led - certainly not in a Tango sense.
Nor in the MJ sense either :whistle:

[Jazz_Shoes (Ash)]

You're not very ambitious are you? :wink: :whistle:
No...but half of that was the 'in my dreams' version :whistle:

[ducasi]

Nor in the MJ sense either :whistle: :confused:

Back at the last Glasgow party, with the "G8" theme, we were taught, IIRC, a first move with ocho steps, right? And if I further recall correctly, the guy would lead the girl into the first ocho step before joining in, stepping right as she stepped right, etc... So, as I said, the girl would start, and the guy would then join in. Am I wrong? :confused:

But what I've understood to be ochos don't match up with ESG's description, so now I'm doubly confused. :confused: :confused:

But :shrug: it doesn't greatly matter... Lets get back to talking ambitions...

To be comfortable leading close moves
To have girls ask me for particular moves because "I do them so well"
To have a move named after me

Don't think that last one will happen any time soon though... :rolleyes:

[Tiggerbabe]

:confused:

Back at the last Glasgow party, with the "G8" theme, we were taught, IIRC, a first move with ocho steps, right? And if I further recall correctly, the guy would lead the girl into the first ocho step before joining in, stepping right as she stepped right, etc... So, as I said, the girl would start, and the guy would then join in. Am I wrong? :confused:


No, you're not wrong - but as you have just said - the guy would lead, the follower wouldn't just decide to do them on her own. At the party, it was a fun move thing and so the guy did join in.

[David Bailey]

You step left foot from behind in front of right foot, round and plant it beside, to the right of right foot. Then bring right foot round, forward in front of left foot and plant it back where it came from to the left of left foot. Repeat to taste.
That sounds like "forward ochos" - I was thinking of "backward ochos" (do not ask me what the proper terminology is, I haven't a clue...)

Backward ochos, the lady moves her front foot around and back to turn (twist, really). So if her left foot is in front, she moves her left foot around and back behind to do a half-twist anti-clockwise. Then her right foot (which is now in front) goes around and back to do a half-twist clockwise.

Anyway, to me, leading forward ochos is fairly straightforward, as the lead can push / pull the lady pretty much directly in the direction intended, and it's just a question of timing and style after that (basically, slowing the lady down enough to make it look good!).

However, backward ochos (which I think is what they do in yer proper Argy Tango), are way waaaaayyyy more tricky to lead - for example, it's extremely difficult from a First Move position as previously described to lead the lady's left foot around and back behind to do a half-twist anti-clockwise - you have to kind of get your right hand up just under to the lady's shoulder blades and lift to give the indication.

If the lady's frame isn't extremely good, she'll just look at you at this point as if you're a nutter. :whistle:

I think that's correct, but anybody who knows what they're talking about, feel free to step in with some actual knowledge here...

[JoC]

My dance ambition is utter magnificence.

[LMC]

If the lady's frame isn't extremely good, she'll just look at you at this point as if you're a nutter. :whistle:

:yeah: :rofl:

and this is why I can't do ochos :rolleyes:

JoC, when you've taken over the world, can I be your deputy please?

[JoC]

JoC, when you've taken over the world, can I be your deputy please?
Absolutely, I must warn you though that I may take at least a few more weeks to realise this particular ambition so you'll need patience.

I'm going to practise some ochoes later because that seems to be the key to success. That and finding out how to do a drop-kick properly. :D

[LMC]

Absolutely, I must warn you though that I may take at least a few more weeks to realise this particular ambition so you'll need patience.
I'm sorry, but you just don't have the drive it takes to succeed. I always insist that I should have been able to achieve whatever-it-is-that-I-didn't-even-know-I-needed-to-achieve-until-today by last Wednesday. Preferably the weekend before.


I'm going to practise some ochoes later because that seems to be the key to success.
Not so much the key to success as a bit of an obsessive bugbear. :rofl: at all the technical discussion of 'em on here - move along please, nothing to see here...


That and finding out how to do a drop-kick properly. :D
I know, I know! :D - good workshop today :wink: Leading to a brand new ambition which is to get fitter, actually get around to finding another (more convenient) yoga class and lose 5 inches in height and 5 stone in weight...

[Little Monkey]

In basic ochos the guy steps side to side using his hands at hip height to twist the lady one way, step her back (or forwards) then twist her 180 degrees and forward again. His footwork doesn't match the lady's.

If the follower starts them, then they're not being led - certainly not in a Tango sense.

Ummmm..... Wouldn't say that the lead twists the lady at hip height / by the hip..... The lead is really subtle, but very hard to describe verbally! But yes, step to the side, gentle lead on lady's upper back and 'opening up' a space so the lady does an ocho ..... Ok, I couldn't describe it any better than you! But I have danced with cerocers who have done one or two tango classes, and they always try to twist and stear the lady as if she was a b****y lorry or something!:blush: But his footwork may actually mirror the ladie's, eg. lady can do a forward ocho and the man a backward ocho.

And the move is always lead, as you said.

Pedantic Little Monkey

[JoC]

I'm sorry, but you just don't have the drive it takes to succeed. I always insist that I should have been able to achieve whatever-it-is-that-I-didn't-even-know-I-needed-to-achieve-until-today by last Wednesday. Preferably the weekend before.My red bull must be wearing off. :what:

So do you indulge in birch-twig floggings as well? I may be in good company here.

Leading to a brand new ambition *snip* lose 5 inches in heightNo need surely!!! Looked like there were plenty of tall men around down there to me...(or was that just my vantage point?)

[Yogi_Bear]

That sounds like "forward ochos" - I was thinking of "backward ochos" (do not ask me what the proper terminology is, I haven't a clue...)

Backward ochos, the lady moves her front foot around and back to turn (twist, really). So if her left foot is in front, she moves her left foot around and back behind to do a half-twist anti-clockwise. Then her right foot (which is now in front) goes around and back to do a half-twist clockwise.

Anyway, to me, leading forward ochos is fairly straightforward, as the lead can push / pull the lady pretty much directly in the direction intended, and it's just a question of timing and style after that (basically, slowing the lady down enough to make it look good!).

However, backward ochos (which I think is what they do in yer proper Argy Tango), are way waaaaayyyy more tricky to lead - for example, it's extremely difficult from a First Move position as previously described to lead the lady's left foot around and back behind to do a half-twist anti-clockwise - you have to kind of get your right hand up just under to the lady's shoulder blades and lift to give the indication.

If the lady's frame isn't extremely good, she'll just look at you at this point as if you're a nutter. :whistle:

I think that's correct, but anybody who knows what they're talking about, feel free to step in with some actual knowledge here...The distinction is that in Argentine Tango in a forward ocho the follower pivots on the inside foot, and in a back ocho she pivots on the outside foot. The ocho is a beginner's step in tango classes. I haven't experienced how the concept of the ocho has been adapted to the demands of modern jive, but I expect that the actual movement has been greatly simplified.

[LMC]

Looked like there were plenty of tall men around down there to me...(or was that just my vantage point?)
Partly true, partly from your perspective.

Another new ambition: get a law passed that men may not dance with anyone less than 8 inches shorter than them unless they are married to them. That way us tall girls have half a hope of dancing more with taller guys :wink:

[JoC]

Partly true, partly from your perspective.

Another new ambition: get a law passed that men may not dance with anyone less than 8 inches shorter than them unless they are married to them. That way us tall girls have half a hope of dancing more with taller guys :wink:
:rofl: Fair dos! As long as there's a corresponding law at the other end of the scale.

[spindr]

Partly true, partly from your perspective.

Another new ambition: get a law passed that men may not dance with anyone less than 8 inches shorter than them unless they are married to them. That way us tall girls have half a hope of dancing more with taller guys :wink:
And how are you're going to guarantee an ample supply of 5' 8 3/4'' partners available at all the venues I go to? :)

SpinDr.

[LMC]

And how are you're going to guarantee an ample supply of 5' 8 3/4'' partners available at all the venues I go to? :)
Alternatively you could convert to a religion which allows polygamy and marry all the <5'8 3/4" women you want to dance with?

Oh yeah, ochos (the sensible part of the thread)... I confess to also being completely confused with all the different descriptions :confused:

The version taught on Wednesday had the women pivot on left foot, step forward with right, pivot on right foot, step forward with left, repeat. Then repeat twice again but at double speed... that was where I *really* lost the thingy... wotsit... plot! yes, that's the word for it, plot.

[MartinHarper]

When I started dancing, my ambition was to cure my natural clumsiness. This hasn't been wildly successful: I'm still clumsy, but I'm clumsy in a more extravagant way. Joyfully clumsy, even.

Currently, my dance ambition is to be able to lead and follow a variety of dances competently.

[Lynn]

The distinction is that in Argentine Tango in a forward ocho the follower pivots on the inside foot, and in a back ocho she pivots on the outside foot. The ocho is a beginner's step in tango classes. I haven't experienced how the concept of the ocho has been adapted to the demands of modern jive, but I expect that the actual movement has been greatly simplified. Yes, was taught it at my second class.

I was thinking about when I might have done them in MJ - so asked a MJ dancer today to lead me - and he was able to, so I have probably have been led when doing them as I think that was who I might have danced with when doing them... Not sure where he has learnt to lead them from (as we have no MJ classes here) but it was fairly simple leading, and yes, the lead does control the speed.

Sometimes my feet are just doing things that follow what is being led, or the music (ideally both!) and I'm really not thinking about it...

Current dancing ambition - to master the basics of Lindy...

[David Bailey]

I confess to also being completely confused with all the different descriptions :confused:

I think the best description is Yogi_Bears:

in a forward ocho the follower pivots on the inside foot, and in a back ocho she pivots on the outside foot.
See - that's exactly what I was trying to say, but in a single sentence - :worthy:
My original obsession was with back ochos; to me, these are much trickier to lead.


The version taught on Wednesday had the women pivot on left foot, step forward with right, pivot on right foot, step forward with left, repeat.
That sounds like a variation of what I'm calling "forward ochos" (until someone tells me I'm talking cr*p), then degenerating into fast twisty things. To me, ochos have to be done sloooowwwwly.

Also note:

The ocho is a beginner's step in tango classes.
Says it all, really... :eek:

[spindr]

Ochos:

In Argentine Tango there are *at least* four separate leads and follows -- each of which can take fractions or several beats. Note the lead is "from the man's chest" -- there's no reason to use hands on the lady's body to rotate her.

0). Man leads lady to place *all* her weight on her right foot.
1). Man leads lady to rotate on her right foot -- if it's an anticlockwise rotation it's a forward ocho, if clockwise it's a backwards ocho.
2). Man leads lady to step on her free left foot so that she moves to her right and places all of her weight on to that left foot.
3). Man leads lady to rotate on her left foot to face him.

Obviously, now that the lady has all her weight on her left foot can proceed as:
1). Man leads lady to rotate on her left foot -- if it's an anticlockwise rotation it's a forward ocho, if clockwise it's a backwards ocho.
2). Man leads lady to step on her free right foot so that she moves to her left and places all of her weight on to that rightt foot.
3). Man leads lady to rotate on her right foot to face him.

Can keep leading forwards ochos, or backwards one's or mix them up.

The man can simply move across from right to left and back -- mirror the lady's movements e.g. doing a forwards ocho as the lady does a backwards one -- or dance the same ocho but on the opposite leg -- there's probably loads more variations.

---------------

In MJ the move tends to be rushed and goes through steps 1-3 quickly -- and the lead is on the lady's body.

---------------

SpinDr.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Note the lead is "from the man's chest" -- there's no reason to use hands on the lady's body to rotate her.
{snip}
In MJ ... the lead is on the lady's body.
Good post. Can you elaborate on what you mean by the lead is from the man's chest, or 'on the lady's body'. I'm coming from the point of view where I'm leading this move holding both my partner's hands, albeing with a strong 'frame'.

[spindr]

Good post. Can you elaborate on what you mean by the lead is from the man's chest, or 'on the lady's body'. I'm coming from the point of view where I'm leading this move holding both my partner's hands, albeing with a strong 'frame'.

If you keep a "strong frame" both dancers will move as one -- but at least in some parts of the ocho the lady is rotating but the man isn't, so the dance frame needs to "soften" to allow the lady to move.

AFAIK, in tango the lady is always trying to keep parallel to, and centred on the man's chest -- so, if I rotate my chest slightly this is a lead for the lady to move (start the first ocho rotation) so that she can get back to being parallel and centred wrt to it. Note that rotating my chest doesn't imply that my feet rotate -- my body can twist at or near the diaphragm. I could claim that when I step to the side -- the centre of my chest moves (!) -- hence the lady "wants" to move to keep centred on it, i.e. the step part of the ocho. Although, I think that you should probably "express the intention" for the lady to step across (and then you follow her movement) -- think of it as a small "impulse" of a lead -- a miniscule movement of the shoulders to the side, i.e. a slight rib isolation.

There's no similar concept to the above in MJ -- and citing DavidB's "the lead is from the hand closest to the lady" that mean's that the lead must be from the man's right hand on the lady's shoulder :)

SpinDr.

[El Salsero Gringo]

There's no similar concept to the above in MJ -- and citing DavidB's "the lead is from the hand closest to the lady" that mean's that the lead must be from the man's right hand on the lady's shoulder :)

SpinDr.It's not taught that way in MJ, but a lot of the best dancers tune in to the way the leader is pointing them with his chest. It is taught in WCS though. When I've been taught ochos in MJ - or by Amir in his Jango class - we were hand-to-hand, down at hip level.

[David Bailey]

{ excellent points }
All very useful, I'll try to practice these tonight... Oh, and :worthy:

Realistically, I think "ballroom hold" ochos are near-impossible at the moment to lead in MJ, unless you're dancing with someone who knows argentinian tango. Simply because the whole "leading from the chest" thing is so different from a standard MJ lead.

The two handed-hold move, as described by ESG, is more easy because more MJ dancers are used to adopting a stronger frame for that - although it's less elegant of course.

The main point about ochos is to take your time about them - too many people rush them. Also, of course, it's gotta be done to the right music, I can't really see it working to "Call On Me" :) (Although it'd be interesting to see someone try)

[LMC]

:worthy: spindr & ESG - this is starting to almost make sense now...

Last Wednesday's move had the ballroom hand at follower's shoulder level so LM's "steering a lorry" analogy made me laugh, because that was slightly how it felt - the lead stood still and pushing/pulling on the follower's hands. Obviously, because the lead was stood still, there was no element of following his chest - maybe that's why I found the step so awkward?

< shrug, 'cos I dunno until I try >

First one of you I see gets buttonholed for some more practice :devil:

where did everyone go?

(plus belated thanks to Mr Long for Saturday's demo - still trying to fit all that into my extremely limited world view)

[David Bailey]

Obviously, because the lead was stood still,
:eek:
OK, if the lead stands still, and just kind of waves his arms around to lead you, that's not exactly the best way to lead an ocho...

In Argentinian Tango, from what I recall, the man's chest is very close to / touching the woman's chest most of the time, so you can lead by the chest. In fact, that's the only way to lead.

Adapting this to MJ is a challenge...

[Purple Sparkler]

My main dance ambition is to be able to follow properly, and lead properly.

By follow properly I don't just mean actually going where I'm sent, I also mean not pre-empting moves, being able to follow footworky frolics first time, being able to follow effectively in double trouble, and having a wide enough repertoire of MJ/Jango moves that I can recognise any signal.

By lead properly, I mean being able to use, not mess up, my partner's momentum, lead using any part of me that's in contact with any part of my partner, and be a clear and effective lead, which I'm not at present.

Obviously I would also like to kick ass at next year's Ceroc champs.

[Lory]

I'd like to be able to do 'something' with my spare arm, that doesn't look naff, doesn't interfere with the flow of my follow and that doesn't look too flash or pretensious :nice:

[Donna]

What are your personal ambitions in dancing?

This isn't intended to turn into a discussion on the merits of whether competitions are good or bad, or whether dancers who enter competitions are "better" dancers - these have been discussed here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2183&page=1) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5210&page=1) and probably elsewhere too. I was tempted to do a poll but I'm feeling lazy and not that scientific, just curious. Yep, it's a nosy thread... share? :flower:

My ambition is to run a dance school. This is why I'm doing other styles now such as cha cha cha, rumba, samba, waltz, hussle, foxtrot, jive, salsa, linedancing to name just a few. Got a lot of work to do though so I'm looking to possibly start one in about 10 years or something.

[Purple Sparkler]

I'd like to be able to do 'something' with my spare arm, that doesn't look naff, doesn't interfere with the flow of my follow and that doesn't look too flash or pretensious :nice:

?? I've never seen you not using your spare arm, Lory. You always look fabulous on the dancefloor when I watch you. :flower:

[Donna]

?? I've never seen you not using your spare arm, Lory. You always look fabulous on the dancefloor when I watch you. :flower:

Still something I'm trying to learn is to do something with that blummin spare arm all the time. They say just feeling the music helps you to do something but does it hell!!! Lily B told me if you can't think of anything to do with it then just place it on your hip or keep it hold it out slightly as it looks better than just letting it dangle there. My advice is to chop it off...then you won't have to think about it will you?? :rofl: Hey that's a challenge...one handed jive!!!! :rofl:

[under par]

My ultimate dance ambition is to give the ultimate dance to every woman I dance with.

So I would like to have

a soft but firm lead into as many appropriate moves as possible to go with the music.

To dance without unbalancing my partner by recognising where her weight is balanced.

To be able to smile readily whilst dancing.

To be able to allow my body to have more fluidity. So my body dances too.

To dance to the music being played showing I am hearing the rhythm and beat.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'd like to be able to do 'something' with my spare arm, that doesn't look naff, doesn't interfere with the flow of my follow and that doesn't look too flash or pretensious :nice:Wait till you have an itchy butt. Then you'll be able to use your spare arm. (Might not be elegant, but it will be oh-so-satisfying.)

[Donna]

Wait till you have an itchy butt. Then you'll be able to use your spare arm. (Might not be elegant, but it will be oh-so-satisfying.)

What a cheeky little ass you are!! :wink: Can't wait to see what Lory has to say about this one!! :grin:

[Dazzle]

I'd like to be able to do 'something' with my spare arm, that doesn't look naff, doesn't interfere with the flow of my follow and that doesn't look too flash or pretensious :nice:

Don't remember any of that at Southport, me thinks you worry too much! :flower: Mind you, that's rich coming from me, the King of Worriers! :rofl:

[Donna]

Don't remember any of that at Southport, me thinks you worry too much! :flower: Mind you, that's rich coming from me, the King of Worriers! :rofl:

You worry??!! Aaaahh so that's why your starting to get those little grey hairs now!!! :D :rofl:

[Icey]

What are your personal ambitions in dancing?

Mine is to just get better than I am now.

I also want to be a little more graceful than I currently am ... graceful and Icey are not words usually used together in the same paragraph when talking about my dancing :(

[Dazzle]

You worry??!! Aaaahh so that's why your starting to get those little grey hairs now!!! :D :rofl:

I'll have you know those are "go-faster stripes" for multiple spinning! :waycool:

(Makes a note to renew the "Just For Men" subscription!)

[JoC]

As there's a bit of a tango vibe on this thread, can I ask if one might always expect a neck massage whilst doing tangoesque dancing, or is such a move generally reserved for very special ladies?

[David Bailey]

As there's a bit of a tango vibe on this thread, can I ask if one might always expect a neck massage whilst doing tangoesque dancing, or is such a move generally reserved for very special ladies?
???

Actually, we haven't talked much about neck holds have we? They're great... :drool:

[Lynn]

I'll have you know those are "go-faster stripes" for multiple spinning! :waycool: Multiple spinning - there's another of my dance ambitions! It used to be to able to spin, now its to improve my multiple spinning.

[Donna]

I'll have you know those are "go-faster stripes" for multiple spinning! :waycool:

(Makes a note to renew the "Just For Men" subscription!)

:rofl: :rofl:

[JoC]

???Seemed a little kinky but felt rather good :innocent:. (At what point does an open mind become naivety?) Where can we discuss neck holds further?

[Donna]

Seemed a little kinky but felt rather good :innocent:. (At what point does an open mind become naivety?) Where can we discuss neck holds further?

Neck holds???? explain..

[JoC]

Neck holds???? explain..
You'll have to ask DavidJames, it's all new sauciness to me, I know nothing. :)

(Think we might be talking leading with hand on partners neck, and I don't know maybe partner reciprocates sometimes if the mood is right???)

You have just joined the deviants Donna, any more?

[Donna]

You'll have to ask DavidJames, it's all new sauciness to me, I know nothing. :)

(Think we might be talking leading with hand on partners neck, and I don't know maybe partner reciprocates sometimes if the mood is right???)

You have just joined the deviants Donna, any more?

oh yes DavidJames did start this one off....ok so what neck holds DJ?

[David Bailey]

oh yes DavidJames did start this one off....ok so what neck holds DJ?
OK, OK, I'll do a thread after lunch - the sun's out now.

[Donna]

OK, OK, I'll do a thread after lunch - the sun's out now.

Tut. :rolleyes: Wish I was in London then.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Seemed a little kinky but felt rather good :innocent:. (At what point does an open mind become naivety?) Where can we discuss neck holds further?And are they a good prep for hair-pulling?

[Donna]

And are they a good prep for hair-pulling?

Could be..check out DJ new thread on neck holds. I don't like the hair pulling one by the way....mmpph it's cheesy. :sick:

[LMC]

What are your personal ambitions in dancing?

This isn't intended to turn into a discussion on the merits of whether competitions are good or bad, or whether dancers who enter competitions are "better" dancers - these have been discussed here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2183&page=1) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5210&page=1) and probably elsewhere too. I was tempted to do a poll but I'm feeling lazy and not that scientific, just curious. Yep, it's a nosy thread... share? :flower:

Well, it's been nearly three months.... has anyone who posted on this thread achieved any of their ambitions? - do tell!

I achieved one of mine on Friday - I was lucky enough to get the winner of last month's DWAS at Cheshunt as my partner this month - and we made it into the second round :clap: - so glad I didn't let him down, he was lovely!
Still can't do b****y ocho steps though.

Anyone got any more ambitions to share? (and possibly "borrow", 'cos I wish I'd thought of them :devil: )

[ducasi]

I haven't realised any of my ambitions... :sad:

But reading back this thread, I have realised how much I miss JoC's posts. :tears:

[David Bailey]

I haven't realised any of my ambitions... :sad:

But reading back this thread, I have realised how much I miss JoC's posts. :tears:
:yeah: - JoC, where are you? (Sung to the Scooby-Doo theme tune)

[Gadget]

I missed this thread, but my ambitions...[wibble-wobble, wibble-wobble]

I've been compared to several dancers that I admire {"your dancing reminds me of X"} which is :waycool:, but I would like for the people I admire to have their dancing be compared to mine in the same positive way :D :devil:

I would like to inspire and 'lift' the level of dancing for everyone; infect everyone with the dancing bug so that they no longer think about dancing, connection and music as being individual entities.

To make every dance be the 'best' that my partner has had that evening. For every partner. No matter who they have danced with or who they will dance with.
[/wibble-wobble, wibble-wobble]

To acheive these, I need to get better at knowing where I am, become better at knowing where my partner is, become better at knowing how they will move and become better at 'tuning in' to them.

On a slightly more realistic level, I would like to do a 'tour' and visit every MJ venue up & down the land, then go to every other one in every other country... that may take a couple of years. :D

I would like to teach MJ some day - but I don't have the time to get the qualifications I would want, or even the time to set up a night.

On a more immediate level, I want to get my balance sorted out after straightening up my posture a bit: I seem to have lost my ability to spin on my left foot properly. Must be used to spinning with a slouch :(
On the plus side, i can spin in either direction from either foot with equal ineptatude.


I have acheived some of my previous ambitions, and reached some I didn't know I had. :D

[Minnie M]

.......I would like to inspire and 'lift' the level of dancing for everyone; infect everyone with the dancing bug so that they no longer think about dancing, connection and music as being individual entities.

To make every dance be the 'best' that my partner has had that evening. For every partner. No matter who they have danced with or who they will dance with.

I reckon my dances with you at the BFG were some of the best I had over the weekend - I compared dancing with you to the 'advert' for LOST - total body and arm movements in slow motion - it was really cool :cool: :waycool: and dreamy :drool:


.......On a slightly more realistic level, I would like to do a 'tour' and visit every MJ venue up & down the land, then go to every other one in every other country... that may take a couple of years. :D

About 7 years ago, my job took me all over the UK and therefore I was able to visit (at that time) nearly all the Ceroc venues - not sure if it improved my dancing, but I made a lot of friends, most I still have :flower:

[Gladrags]

Eeek, where do you start on this one.

I think if you'd asked me three years ago, it would have been to be considered by others to be "an advanced dancer" - however you define that. But not sure it is any more. And I used to get wrapped up in this, possibly to the expense of my partners. Don't know if I've made it, not completely sure I care.

Then there is competition. There is still a part of me who wants to win one, be it intermediate, or perhaps with some work, advanced. But its certainly not what drives me on.

On a night to night level, I want that dance which when you sat down after the event, you look back and realise how really good it was.

And actually, I have started teaching MJ to some students at school (being a maths teacher by trade). An ambition is to make them want to continue, after their school days, with or without me to drive them on.

I could go on........

[Anna]

My ultimate dance ambitions right now..

Be a really good salsa teacher, go to the Sydney Salsa congress in Jan and meet all the right people and be labelled as NZ's upandcoming hottest female salsa dancer, find a great partner and win the Jambalaya professional grade which automatically qualifies us for the world champs, perform at the LA salsa congress with Latinissimo (this one is actually happening), go to the world champs in Las Vegas Dec 2006 and do NZ proud... and eventually move to Sydney sometime within the next 4 years after being invited to join the team at Latin Motion Australia :drool: from there.. becoming Oliver Pineda's (or alternatively, Csaba, Jaime Jesus or Richard Natividad's) new dance partner and winning all the comps, teaching worldwide, having my own website and starring in instructional videos.. OH .. and to have a nickname like all the International Salsa Pro's do... like "the SalsaPrincess" or something.. :D LOL not asking much right ?

[jivecat]

To be able to do double spins, with total control, when I want to.

[LMC]

< thinking big > LOL not asking much right ?
LOL, you missed the appearances in the West End? Sounds like you've got what it takes though and time is on your side!

I'm hereby borrowing jivecat's ambition as well - I would love to be able to do double spins with some consistency. Some great tips at the style workshop this weekend - and I did a couple of v. nice doubles. But how that will translate into freestyle I dunno... and I need to practice!


But reading back this thread, I have realised how much I miss JoC's posts. :tears:
:yeah: - we miss you JoC :flower:

[Keith]

Mine’s been a bit of a Billy Elliot.
As a child I used to watch such programmes as The London Palladium, I think on a Friday & always fancied being on stage as an accompanying dancer! But coming from a working class background, I didn’t even realise there were dance classes available for lads of my age. So I continued playing football, basketball etc, but never lost this craving.
10 years ago, I came across Ceroc, which after the initial 10 weeks, I started to love.
Due to this & my passion to dance, I have now achieved more than my initial goal, having danced at the Manchester Opera House, on two occasions, to a full house, for a Swing Singer, who sings all over the world, which also ended up with my doing a Solo to ‘Mr Bo Jangles’, with all the prop’s, a 24 piece orchestra & Cole Page Singing :eek: Scarry when you look out into 3 tiers & your pretty much alone.
This has been the highlight of my dancing & has led to myself & dance partners, accompanying the likes of Will Mellor, from the dance show ‘Boogie Nights’ & TV series Holly Oaks, besides many other b list celebrities from the likes of Coronation Street etc.
I love dancing & it’s helped me fulfil some great dreams.
I’ve been very lucky & never stop thanking those people who helped me get through the first 10 weeks & those who gave me inspiration over the last 10 years.

[Anna]

Rock on Keith!!! :worthy:

:D Well done and best wishes for your further dancing career!! :clap: :clap:

That just shows it everyone -

If you can dream it..

YOU CAN ACHIEVE IT!!!

[Little Monkey]

Oooops. I just skimmed through this thread, and have realised the only post I made was a pedantic one about how to lead ochos.... :blush:

Right.

I'd love to become the kind of follower who all leads go :drool: about. I would like to become lighter to lead and more graceful. I do lack style, I think..... :( I would also like to get my back fixed, so that I can dance all night without risking to trap the nerves in my back! :tears:

I would also love to get to the stage in Argentine tango where I don't have to think and concentrate on the dancing, but just relax and let my body flow with the music and my partner's lead.

I also want to learn WCS. I know a little, but am a complete beginner and need lots of practice and workshops before I'll be anywhere near competent.

Oh, and I would also like a dance partner to practice with (jive, tango and WCS, not asking for much, am I???), and perhaps enter a few comps, if I can find the courage.......

[Little Monkey]

PS

For those of you who are asking about JoC.....






...........She's found herself a lovely man!:clap:

[ducasi]

For those of you who are asking about JoC.....
...........She's found herself a lovely man!:clap:I'm really happy for her, but don't understand how that stops her posting... :confused:

Though as my inspiration for my own "cold turkey" (whatever happened to that?!?) from the forum, maybe it's simply that she's found the cure for her addiction.

Anyone want to help cure mine? :flower:


:wink:

[Little Monkey]

maybe it's simply that she's found the cure for her addiction.


Quite possibly, yes. :wink:

[cheeks]

Ambitions.....mm in the 19mths dancing MJ they have changed
slightly
initially it was to master the basics
to spin :blush: .....
to not dance a freestyle track without apologising :blush:
to look at my partner as much as possible and become more confident
and keep enjoying

Now I am still ambitious about:

perfecting spins or doing double spins more easily
the confidence bit and looking at my partner
to follow the columbian in freestyle:tears: have it to a t any other time:wink:
incorporate more tango footwork into my MJ dancing :D

(and yes I still apologise during freestyle whether my fault of not can't help it.....)

I would love to be able to dance in front of others not necessary at comp but to look great, feel great( poss wearing something like Zoe red outfit from 1st week on SCD:drool: and dance amazingly!!!!:flower:

[Lynn]

Ambitions.....mm in the 19mths dancing MJ they have changed
slightly
initially it was to master the basics
to spin :blush: .....
to dance a freestyle track without apologising :blush:
to look at my partner as much as possible and become more confident
and keep enjoying :yeah:
Some of mine too - though they also then and always include following as well as I can.

Now I am still ambitious about:

perfecting spins or doing double spins more easily
:yeah:
I had a private lesson at Camber and focused mainly on that, which I know will be a big help. I want to be able to do well controlled spins.

(and yes I still apologise during freestyle whether my fault of not can't help it.....):yeah: I do this too still sometimes. :blush:

And I haven't got the 'looking at the partner' thing sorted at all.:blush: Someone watching me at Camber pointed it out, but I am already aware of it. I was trying at salsa last night and it was a bit better. I managed it in a couple of dances at the BFG and I at Camber in a DT dance as I knew my partner wasn't totally focused on me so I was a bit more relaxed about it. It does improve the dance.

[cheeks]

I had a private lesson.

Good Idea :flower:


And I haven't got the 'looking at the partner' thing sorted at all.:blush: ...................... but I am already aware of it..

:yeah:Following a conversation about compliments and constructive critism I asked a couple of my friends who I respect as dancers to give me feedback on my dancing and the one thing they said was looking up and at my partner , I'm not rude and do acknowledge them but I tend to make eye contact and not be able to keep and up doing the glancing thing...:blush:
Sometimes I have no problem but I find that this can also depend on my mood and how confident I feel.......which is crazy because I know my following and spins are more controlled when maintaining eye contact..... :whistle:
just need to keep focusing on it I guess.....:hug:

[LMC]

Ooooh, I'd forgotten about this one until I found DJ's link to it whilst reviewing the Tango in N London thread.

I get to tango it first :clap:

Er... will "everything" do?

Even just one tango lesson has so opened my eyes to how much more is "out there" in terms of improving my connection, following and balance (and even then, I reckon there's probably a whole load more I'm not aware of yet).

I think the first things for me are

speed. I need to speed up my response but sometimes slow down my movement to match that of the leader, if that makes sense.
balance. Last night showed me that I was vaguely along the right lines during the recent discussions on weight distribution - but oh, how much more work have I got to do on that!
connection. Partly a function of balance - but the connection does feel different from MJ - can't quite put my finger on it, but there were times when I didn't feel I had a connection even though my partner at the time assured me I had.


So anyone who wants to offer to walk around the room with me will be my giro, I mean hero.

Oh, and JoC, we miss you :sad: - come back :hug:

[Lynn]

I get to tango it first :clap: Another strike for the TTDs! (Are we keeping score?)

Even just one tango lesson has so opened my eyes to how much more is "out there" in terms of improving my connection, following and balance (and even then, I reckon there's probably a whole load more I'm not aware of yet). :yeah:

So anyone who wants to offer to walk around the room with me will be my giro, I mean hero. :rofl: