Leadable mini-aerials?

[MartinHarper]

From another thread:


Lead for the First Move Jump: bring the lady in to the side, crouch a little and make a small lift.

Is the First Move Jump leadable? Are there any leadable moves which involve both the lady's feet leaving the ground?

[El Salsero Gringo]

Is the First Move Jump leadable? Are there any leadable moves which involve both the lady's feet leaving the ground?I was talking to LilyB about this last night and it was fairly clear that we weren't using exactly the same definition of 'lead' and 'leadable'.

I showed her what I meant by a lead for that move and she told me point blank that she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body - even if that force was minimal and insufficient to execute the move without significant input from the lady.

So perhaps you should disambiguate the question by saying *exactly* what *you* mean by leadable. Otherwise I don't think this discussion is going to have much meaning.

[Andreas]

I was talking to LilyB about this last night and it was fairly clear that we weren't using exactly the same definition of 'lead' and 'leadable'.

I showed her what I meant by a lead for that move and she told me point blank that she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body - even if that force was minimal and insufficient to execute the move without significant input from the lady.

So perhaps you should disambiguate the question by saying *exactly* what *you* mean by leadable. Otherwise I don't think this discussion is going to have much meaning.

The 'lead' you described for the 1st Mv Jump is a signal to me.

My definition of a lead is 'guidance', which is not the case for the 1st Mv Jump. Either the lady recognises the signal (your crouch) or it'll become a 1st Mv Throw by nature :D I have done a couple of them and they do sort of work but not really look elegantly. But again, it is a THROW more than a JUMP, which re-defines the move.

I would say there are air steps that you can 'lead' with pure strength (lifting the girl) but these still require that the girl has an idea of what may be desired once she has lost ground under her feet. So it is arguable to call it a proper lead. You may also refer to it as a neandertal picking up his lady for apre whatever :whistle: If you LEAD you are essentially GUIDING. And that is not the case with air steps.

[El Salsero Gringo]

The 'lead' you described for the 1st Mv Jump is a signal to me.

My definition of a lead is 'guidance'Oh, well that's helpful - now just tell me exactly what you mean by 'guidance'!

[Donna]

The 'lead' you described for the 1st Mv Jump is a signal to me.

That sort of move does need a signal. Most of the lifts or drops in Jive require signals...like for e.g. first move into woman jumping up along side of man onto his hip...signal for that is the man taps his shoulder on the same side where he wants her to jump on. Of course this wouldn't work with an inexperience dancered and trying to force her up in the air can cause accidents. Before I started doing any dips, drops or mini aerials, the person I was doing them with would always take me through them first and show me the signals so then that way, he could lead me into them no problem.

[El Salsero Gringo]

That sort of move does need a signal.It needs a signal, for instance, like a crouch and quick lift of the lady's hips. That's the kind of signal that indicates how she transitions into the start of the move. It's a special kind of signal - I know - let's call it a lead....

[Andreas]

Oh, well that's helpful - now just tell me exactly what you mean by 'guidance'!

:rofl:

Right, 'guidance' means you push/shove/pull the lady, which is incentive for her to DO the move. With air steps the ladies don't DO moves, they a re BEING DONE moves, so to speak. A lady can't DO the 1st Mv Jump, neither can the man make her do it. If the lady tries it on her own she'll never reach the high and parabel that you'd expect from the move. And as I explained previously, if the guy tries to make her do the move it'll turn the move into 'throw'.

You could argue that no drop can be led by this definition but I'd hold against it that all you do in a drop is stop the lady from killing herself. :rofl: You guide her in the position of a drop, the lady can go there all by herself and a few of them can even hold 100% of their weight (which really kills every drop, btw). And all yu do then is stop her from hitting the floor.

---------------

I don't think, though, these definitions are what it is about. I can easily throw a girl onto my shoulder and if I am lucky she will make it a Supergirl. But, although I have put her there w/o her input, I'd still not call it a lead because it is not guidance and the move (if it becomes a Supergirl) will be accidental. The natural thing for the lady to do on my shoulder is collapse and scream. So I didn't really lead the move, even if my action resulted in it.

:flower:

[Mary]

It needs a signal, for instance, like a crouch and quick lift of the lady's hips. That's the kind of signal that indicates how she transitions into the start of the move. It's a special kind of signal - I know - let's call it a lead....


Gotta disagree on this one. If you can 'lead' something then you don't need a signal. Take the neck wrap thingy. In a class the man is taught to show his arm in a right-angle shape at shoulder level - this is a signal to the lady. Why should you need this signal when it's perfectly leadable without. All this teaching of signals should not be necessary if a move is taught how to be lead.

I have been led into all sorts of wierd and wonderful cool moves by some excellent leads up and down the country without the need for a prior signal. I have also been manhandled into some 'mini-aerials' without signals given by complete strangers, but would I call it leading?

Now, what is the difference between manhandling and leading? :devil:

I do have to 'fess up to resorting to some kind of signals with regular partners for certain tricksy moves, but there are some guys out there who can do same moves without signals. :drool:

M

[David Franklin]

Oh, well that's helpful - now just tell me exactly what you mean by 'guidance'!Maybe it's more helpful to the difference between a "signal" and a "lead". Being strictly honest, I'm not sure it's that easy to distinguish them - is raising your hand a signal for the girl to turn underneath, or is it a lead?

I think one key difference is general applicability. A lead relies on general principles - you might have to be taught to recognize the lead for a move, but once that's been done, there are lots of similar moves you can follow using similar ideas for the lead. For example, someone probably won't follow a backhander first time round, but once they know it, they can also do a short backhander, repeating backhander etc.

A signal is much more specific: "when you see A, you do B". There's no inference that "when you see A', you do B'". Generalising, there's also more of a feedback loop with a lead than a signal - signal tends to be "either you know it or you don't".

Finally, a lead should be much more resistant to the leader knowing more than you expect. If I lead a backhander, and the follow knows 5 variations, I still expect the backhander to work. If I give a signal, and the follow knows 5 moves with the same signal, all I can expect is chaos. It's all also context dependent - to some extent beginners often recognize leads as if they were signals rather than actually following.

In terms of aerials, I think you can lead things to a certain amount - you can certainly lead the woman to jump/deweight, for example. But you can't lead how she does it. With the first move jump, the only reason the lady jumps in that direction is (generally) because that's the only move she knows. There are a lot of other possibilities - but it all falls down unless the woman recognizies it as exactly that one move. In my opinion, that makes it a signalled move rather than a lead one.

Couple of specific reasons why aerials don't lend themselves to being lead:

The risk factor: If you misunderstand the lead for a normal move, no-one really cares. If you misunderstand the lead for an aerial, you can be injured or even killed.
Very hard to have a feedback loop: With a normal move, if the follow misunderstands, I can detect that and (usually) correct matters. With an aerial, once we commit, there is very little time or opportunity to correct things. Obviously once contact is broken, there's very little I can do at all.

[Trish]

Maybe it's more helpful to the difference between a "signal" and a "lead". blah blah blah


I agree with this generally. I have been "signalled" to do first move jumps and lap sits and things like half loops. Because most of the guys I dance with are in the Ceroc Central area, we're all generally speaking the same language - but I would still not commit to a move like this without checking with the guy first that this was what he meant. He might have learnt some other signal elsewhere and mean something different. Once I've danced with the guy often enough so that I'm used to his signals for these moves, then I'm happy to do them. With guys I don't dance with very often, I actually prefer a verbal signal like "jump" or whatever, just to make it crystal clear that that is what he wants me to do!

[MartinHarper]

she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body

Well, thanks for explaining to me where Lily is coming from. I disagree with that definition. If my partner is resting her hand lightly in mine, then I'm applying (light) force to (part of) her body. I don't believe that I am suddenly not dancing a lead/follow dance because of that.

For the purpose of discussion I would say that a lead is a signal to move in a certain way, or one of a small number of ways, that work on widely used ("generally applicable") principles of lead/follow.


With the first move jump, the only reason the lady jumps in that direction is (generally) because that's the only move she knows.

Well, the girl is normally going forward before the jump, and the in the absence of any lead to alter her horizontal motion, I would expect her to continue going in that direction.

[David Franklin]

Well, the girl is normally going forward before the jump, and the in the absence of any lead to alter her horizontal motion, I would expect her to continue going in that direction.But motion is a vector quantity. The direction might not change, but she adds a big increase in her horizontal velocity (yes the man helps, but not that much!). If you look at all the various "mini" aerials starting from a first move, there's not a lot of difference in the motion just before the lift - but there's a big difference in the motion afterwards.

Now you might argue - "ah, but you can follow the man's lead to decide how high/far to jump". On one level this is defensible. I could see a group of people who practice the variations assiduously being able to distinguish those subtle differences in the fraction of a second before you go airborne. But in a standard MJ enviroment? Not a chance...

[El Salsero Gringo]

A lady can't DO the 1st Mv Jump, neither can the man make her do it.A lady can't do a first move on her own either - nor can the man make her do it. All moves require cooperation - not just Aerials. So I don't find that a very helpful distinction.
A signal is much more specific: "when you see A, you do B"so when I raise my hand to have the lady turn under it, and she sees me raise my hand and knows to turn - that's a signal then, not a lead?

I'm sorry but I think the reason you're all having such difficulty defining what's a lead and what's a signal is because the distinction is artificial. In which case the question about whether aerials can be 'lead' is a bit of a nonsense.

[ducasi]

I'm sorry but I think the reason you're all having such difficulty defining what's a lead and what's a signal is because the distinction is artificial. In my mind, a lead is a necessary part of each move, used to guide the movement of your partner, whilst a signal is anything added to that. Changing the lead will likely change the move, whilst it's perfectly possible to change a signal, just so-long as everyone knows what it means. Not doing the lead means the move will not happen. Not doing the signal may have lots of different results.

So, the silly "stop!" thing the some people do for the neckbreak (that Ceroc seems now to be abandoning?) is clearly a signal, as it's not a necessary part of the dance – it's perfectly possible to do this move without the signal.

Likewise, the tapping on the shoulder for a first move jump is a signal as it's not necessary in order to perform the move itself.

I'd say that the first move jump is lead-able up to the jump, but because the FM jump starts the same as a FM lap-sit (I think?) at this point the girl has to know where to put her legs during the jump. I'm not sure it's possible to communicate this in the lead, and so some visual or verbal signal is necessary.

Based on the risks if the signal is confused, I'd always go for a verbal signal, and wait until it has been clearly understood before attempting to lift anyone off the floor.

(Disclaimer: I have not yet tried any of the baby aerials I've been taught in a freestyle dance. So it's always possible I really don't know what I'm talking about.)

[David Franklin]

so when I raise my hand to have the lady turn under it, and she sees me raise my hand and knows to turn - that's a signal then, not a lead?If that's all that happens, you could certainly argue that. But you do have the issue of feedback here. If she doesn't turn, I can move the hand back and around to induce her to turn. In principle you could do this with an aerial, but your reactions would have to be tens if not hundreds of times faster.


I'm sorry but I think the reason you're all having such difficulty defining what's a lead and what's a signal is because the distinction is artificial. In which case the question about whether aerials can be 'lead' is a bit of a nonsense.I'm sorry, but I think you're desperately trying to use the grey area between the two to justify yourself. Grey areas are fine for lots of things, but a bit pointless when safety is on the line.

If the opinions of the various airsteps champions on here don't convince you, David and Sharon Savoy (3 x world exhibition champions, 3 x Blackpool exhibition champions) make it clear that they can't lead aerials safely. That's clear enough for me...

[El Salsero Gringo]

In my mind, a lead is a necessary part of each move, used to guide the movement of your partner, whilst a signal is anything added to that. Changing the lead will likely change the move, whilst it's perfectly possible to change a signal, just so-long as everyone knows what it means.All right, as a definition that's consistent, matches at first glance most people's preconceptions of the difference, and quite possibly useful to boot.
I'd say that the first move jump is lead-able up to the jump, but because the FM jump starts the same as a FM lap-sit (I think?) at this point the girl has to know where to put her legs during the jump.So it's leadable as long as the follower doesn't know (or knows not to expect) any other moves that begin with a jump.

[El Salsero Gringo]

If the opinions of the various airsteps champions on here don't convince you, David and Sharon Savoy (3 x world exhibition champions, 3 x Blackpool exhibition champions) make it clear that they can't lead aerials safely. That's clear enough for me...(And you're resorting to quoting 'higher authority' - which may not be argued with - when you can't make your own case, which is always a cop-out.)

I don't really have a 'position' to 'justify' - I'm quite happy to be wrong here as anywhere. And I'm learning a lot from the debate.

[ducasi]

So it's leadable as long as the follower doesn't know (or knows not to expect) any other moves that begin with a jump. Yes. But what are the chances you'll meet someone in a freestyle dance that you know for sure knows one, and only one, jump, and it's the same one that you are going to try to lead?

If your partner knows to expect only first move jumps and no other aerial, then either you are practising that move or you've agreed it in advance, which is, in effect, a verbal signal.

[LilyB]

I was talking to LilyB about this last night and it was fairly clear that we weren't using exactly the same definition of 'lead' and 'leadable'.

I showed her what I meant by a lead for that move and she told me point blank that she didn't consider it 'a lead' - because it involved applying force to the lady's body - even if that force was minimal and insufficient to execute the move without significant input from the lady. ....
I think maybe I didn't make myself very clear last night :blush: .

What I meant was that as soon as you lift the woman off the ground (doesn't matter how low or how little force is used) you have already performed the aerial maneouvre. If the lady catches on and helps you by holding herself well and tucking her legs up, you will be able to perform the aerial well. If she doesn't, then it will be badly executed. How well the move works therefore does not depend on how well it is led - the lead is exactly the same in all cases, at all times, for all men, etc... The woman cannot help to make it work unless she recognises what it is the man is trying to do.

In my personal view then - as far as aerials are concerned - if a 'lead' for an move involved actually executing the move itself (even if only the start of it), then I do not consider that to be a 'followable' lead ... er, actually I don't consider that to be a lead at all :sick: . A lead for a move IMHO has to come before the actual move itself - gives us ladies a chance to follow :whistle:

It is possible to construe the 'bending down' by the man more than he normally would for a First Move, to be the lead for the 1st Move Jump as it comes just before the actual aerial. However, as others have helpfully pointed out, this same 'lead' could mean different things to different women. Some may think it is a lead for the lap-sit - how can the woman tell the difference? :confused: Or for myself and DavidB, that same 'lead' is one of our entries for a Horizontal (overhead one-handed turning lift). I just have a little more to do for that move than I would for a 1st Move Jump or lap-sit. Does it then follow that I must do different things as a response to exactly the same 'lead' when I am dancing with different partners? :what:

I knew that following was difficult but it seems to be getting worse! :tears: :tears: :tears:

LilyB

PS - BTW you led beautifully in the freestyle, Alec :D

[El Salsero Gringo]

PS - BTW you led beautifully in the freestyle, Alec :DThat's mighty kind of you to say so.

[David Franklin]

If the opinions of the various airsteps champions on here don't convince you, David and Sharon Savoy (3 x world exhibition champions, 3 x Blackpool exhibition champions) make it clear that they can't lead aerials safely. That's clear enough for me...
(And you're resorting to quoting 'higher authority' - which may not be argued with - when you can't make your own case, which is always a cop-out.)I don't think so. The point I'm making is that you can "theoretically" justify aerials as leadable, but in practice it's impossibly difficult. But if *I* say that it might beg the comment "well, you're just not good enough". It's harder to say that when arguably the greatest adagio couple ever can't do it.


I don't really have a 'position' to 'justify' - I'm quite happy to be wrong here as anywhere. And I'm learning a lot from the debate.I understand that from a debating point of view. But I'm uncomfortable about a situation where all the people with experience are saying "I think this is a bad idea, and probably dangerous", and you seems to be saying "Ah, but I can split hairs and argue semantics to justify it".

[JoC]

Isn't every action of a lead, that leads to some form of following, a lead?

I would have thought it was an overarching term that included a multitude of sins.

Also didn't realise there was any horizontal propulsion by the follower (or should it be 'receiver' if it's not led by a lead but by a signal that is not a lead) in the first move jump. Not disputing, just interested and thinking now, being a mere beginner in these dark aerial arts.

[ducasi]

Also didn't realise there was any horizontal propulsion by the follower (or should it be 'receiver' if it's not led by a lead but by a signal that is not a lead) in the first move jump. Not disputing, just interested and thinking now, being a mere beginner in these dark aerial arts. That was my understanding too. You, the follower/receiver/whatever, jump up as I, the leader/fella/whatever, help by lifting. Then, as you continue to defy gravity, I swing you forward in a graceful, elegant and effortless manner.

Or something like that. :whistle:

[David Franklin]

Isn't every action of a lead, that leads to some form of following, a lead?

I would have thought it was an overarching term that included a multitude of sins.That would be the way ESG seems to be arguing. It's a defendable point. But in that case, there's not a lot of point discussing "is X leadable"? Because everything is under those terms. You could say the point of distinguishing leads from signals is because we want "is X leadable" to be a useful question.


Also didn't realise there was any horizontal propulsion by the follower (or should it be 'receiver' if it's not led by a lead but by a signal that is not a lead) in the first move jump. Not disputing, just interested and thinking now, being a mere beginner in these dark aerial arts.Every time I've been taught it at Ceroc, my feeling is the guy does virtually nothing aside from a small assist - basically the lady does a big forwards jump. In general everyone's timing was so bad you couldn't really expect anything else. But maybe the guy does gives more horizontal help then I remember; it would be four or five years since I saw it taught...

[JoC]

I, the leader/fella/whatever.Transmitter.


Then, as you continue to defy gravity, I swing you forward in a graceful, elegant and effortless manner.An uncannily accurate description of how it was.

[ducasi]

An uncannily accurate description of how it was. Totally. :D

[JoC]

That would be the way ESG seems to be arguing. It's a defendable point. But in that case, there's not a lot of point discussing "is X leadable"? Because everything is under those terms. You could say the point of distinguishing leads from signals is because we want "is X leadable" to be a useful question.So is the question, can a lead and follow together, execute a first move jump without a verbal or visual instruction, but solely on the basis of physical invitation from the person who is not the follower? (type thing?)


Every time I've been taught it at Ceroc, my feeling is the guy does virtually nothing aside from a small assist - basically the lady does a big forwards jump. In general everyone's timing was so bad you couldn't really expect anything else. But maybe the guy does gives more horizontal help then I remember; it would be four or five years since I saw it taught...In that case I shall wade in with my atrociously faulty memory!

From recent baby aerials workshop...I'm sure as a follower I just jump 'up' when led (yes now I think about it, it seems pretty led to me that part, if I'm not following a lead, I'd jump at the wrong time and it would all go hideously wrong, just we added a verbal instruction in front to know which move we were about to be led) and the lead sort of flings you up and round in front. Nay? Like I said, I'm a mere novice, and perhaps there's more about this move I have yet to learn.

There, for what it's worth I now have my take. It helps if there's an indication of which move you're about to perform, but once you know, it is most definitely led.

[ducasi]

There, for what it's worth I now have my take. It helps if there's an indication of which move you're about to perform, but once you know, it is most definitely led. If there were no indication, just a lead, would you know the difference between a first move jump and a lap sit in time to complete the move successfully?

If not, then there has to be something else apart from the lead that tells you what you're doing. I think that's a signal.

[JoC]

If there were no indication, just a lead, would you know the difference between a first move jump and a lap sit in time to complete the move successfully?

If not, then there has to be something else apart from the lead that tells you what you're doing. I think that's a signal.Hee-hee!

Well, your lead, or what I'm now calling a 'physical invitation' would certainly get you some way along the route to executing the move. I don't see why it mightn't work with dancers who are extremely in tune with each other. I'm sure I've heard James say he's not 100% sure how you lead some moves that he dances with Melanie (correct me if I'm wrong guys) - the moves work or happen because they're in tune (man) without need of signals.

Also if we're talking the difference between a first move jump and a lap sit (are there any more that have a similar start?), I think there's a very different lead with the man's arms and body, and I think potentially, as a follower you would recognize which move you were going into from these factors. (In time or not I've no idea...)

For example, for both those moves, once you're airborne, the legs pretty well start tucked for each move. With first move jump the man remains much more upright (in comparison) and uses his arms and body to project the lady up and around in front of him. With the lapsit, the upward projection doesn't seem to be as high, and doesn't have the element of rotation, plus the man providing a waiting lap might give a clue.

Don't know how advisable it is but I reckon if you practised with a specific partner you could differentiate those two.

Only one way to answer it for sure, find a willing partner, some space, cushions etc, suck it and see.

[ducasi]

Don't know how advisable it is but I reckon if you practised with a specific partner you could differentiate those two.

Only one way to answer it for sure, find a willing partner, some space, cushions etc, suck it and see. You know, I think you might just be right. But then it's about the connection between you and your partner. Not for random semi-strangers on a social dance-floor.

We'll have to try this next time... Which venues in Scotland have lots of space and cushions? :wink:

[Franck]

What I meant was that as soon as you lift the woman off the ground (doesn't matter how low or how little force is used) you have already performed the aerial maneouvre. If the lady catches on and helps you by holding herself well and tucking her legs up, you will be able to perform the aerial well. If she doesn't, then it will be badly executed. How well the move works therefore does not depend on how well it is led - the lead is exactly the same in all cases, at all times, for all men, etc... So far the question has centred around the lead, but maybe we should focus more on the 'follow' aspect.

My definition of following involves matching the lead's compression / leverage, so that if he increases the intensity of the frame, the follower matches it and is therefore able to for example move faster, change direction more responsively, etc.
In that context I can conceive a lead that would not only involve the man bending down, but also creating a 'vertical' frame, positioning himself below his partner, and increasing the compression gradually to allow his partner to jump in the same way that when you increase the compression horizontally, you can have a very fast in & out motion which relies on both the leader and the follower to match their tension. The woman would therefore be lead into a jump (which might require an extra hint from the right hand at hip level, not lifting by upward motion, to get the timing synchronized). Once airborne the leader can choose to apply forward momentum for the traditional first move jump, apply circular motion for the rotation version, or indeed no travelling at all if the floor suddenly get busy.

I don't think that would be an easy lead, but I can picture it in theory. As for other moves that might begin in a similar fashion, I would argue that those are not truly leadable and would require a signal.

[bigdjiver]

I think lead and follow is akin to power steering. So, as been said in this thread, an arial can be lead, in that an indication to jump can be given.

I would guess that a first move jump can be lead in that an indication to jump and to twist can be given at the same time. Once in the air, jumping and twisting, the follow has to use their initiative, and I would guess that landing on two feet is a probable choice. If that move is to be regarded as unsafe it must be because the follow has made an improbable unsafe choice after choosing to jump. Although low, I would consider that risk unacceptable. For one thing the follow may be trying an over enthusiastic lap-sit in error.

I like Simon Selmon's term "educated move", meaning that both partners have to know the move in order to execute it. The vast majority of arials are "educated". It follows from that that the follow has to know which educated move they are going into.

I do an unrehearsed "arial" with ladies that I assess are able and "up for it" I go into a left hand side basket position, lean, dip and say "jump". I them raise my left leg sidewards and lift the lady into the air. She is securely held in the basket position, and my body is under hers at all times in an elevated lean position. This obviously no longer "power steering", and I am applying some extra force to the ladies jump. Actually, thinking as I write, it is actually power steering, but in reverse, The lady is now leading by the height of her jump, and I can be adding a little extra. The first time I do this it is can be very mini-arial, the lady only rising a couple of inches off the ground, usually an indication that I have assessed it wrong and that this move is not for this partner. I have had no indication that this "trial" jump is unsafe.

[David Franklin]

I do an unrehearsed "arial" with ladies that I assess are able and "up for it" I go into a left hand side basket position, lean, dip and say "jump". I them raise my left leg sidewards and lift the lady into the air. She is securely held in the basket position, and my body is under hers at all times in an elevated lean position. This obviously no longer "power steering", and I am applying some extra force to the ladies jump. Actually, thinking as I write, it is actually power steering, but in reverse, The lady is now leading by the height of her jump, and I can be adding a little extra. The first time I do this it is can be very mini-arial, the lady only rising a couple of inches off the ground, usually an indication that I have assessed it wrong and that this move is not for this partner. I have had no indication that this "trial" jump is unsafe.For what it's worth, I'm far less uncomfortable with this than with the first move jump. The man has more control of the situation, and as you say, he's under the woman at all times. And unlike the FMJ, I don't know lots of other moves with the same lead.

I have to confess though, I'm struggling a bit as to what the point is. I can't think of any time I've seen people do an aerial they hadn't practiced together and made it look good. And I've certainly seen more than a few occasions when they've looked decidedly bad.

There are probably exceptions (in cheerleading, Jason Keogh is a famous one. He can hit huge stunts with people he's never worked with before), but in general you really need to work together to get an aerial to look good. It's not just a matter of knowing the move; it's a matter of knowing each other's timing, balance etc. First time I tried a sit-lift with Lily, it, um, didn't go very well... :blush: I could do it reliably with Bryony, but I was very surprised how different it was with Lily. It's equally true of the smaller moves: in fact you might even say it's more true, because it's got to be done well to look good. While there's a certain degree of 'slop' you can get away with when you do a supergirl.

I guess if you/they enjoy it and there's space, who cares? But I think there are better places than a crowded and noisy dance floor to experiment.

[MartinHarper]

Regards safety, my gut tells me that any move where the woman's head stays over her feet should be more safe than a drop where her head goes to knee level.


Not for random semi-strangers on a social dance-floor.

Absolutely. It is possible to practice leadable moves, and to reserve them for people who you know well. Just because a move is, in theory, leadable, does not make it a sensible idea to start trying it out on strangers, or indeed anyone.

[Little Monkey]

like for e.g. first move into woman jumping up along side of man onto his hip...signal for that is the man taps his shoulder on the same side where he wants her to jump on.

Yeah... Just the minor confusion of other moves that have the same signal..... I once danced with a guys (years ago), who lead me into that move, tapped his shoulder, and I jumped......... You should have seen the look of terror on his face! He didn't want me to jump at all, and was thoroughly confused whe I tried to jump on him! :rofl: Could also have been dangerous, but none of us got hurt, thank god. Can't remember what it was he wanted me to do, but it was certainly NOT involving jumping! :blush:

So, for a long time after that, every time I danced with a guy who looked like he was signalling for a jump, but hadn't TOLD me, I shouted: JUMP??????, and only jumped if he said yes. If he looked scared or confused, I didn't... :D

The only sure sign/lead for an aerial, is to SHOUT IT, and look for a sign of recognition/ horror/ confusion on your partners face. :eek: And even then it should never ever be done with a stranger, or someone you've never done such moves with before. Remember, lots of moves start the same way - the first move jump starts exactly the same way as other mini-aerials like the chair, the piano etc... I've been thrown into dips / drops other silly moves etc before without my partner checking if it was ok, and have also been dropped right on my head because my partner didn't quite know how to do the move. :mad:

LM

[Andreas]

A lady can't do a first move on her own either - nor can the man make her do it.

I beg to differ. If the lady steps herself through the first move she can make it look EXACTLY the way it should, without the man doing a thing.

[Mr Cool]

From another thread:



Is the First Move Jump leadable? Are there any leadable moves which involve both the lady's feet leaving the ground?

Personally I hate all choreographed moves airsteps or not for me dance should be pure lead and follow I for one can lead most Ladies and men for that matter into an air step it is all down to good technique position and balance and has little to do with strength nothing to do with picking your partner up or partner parcipitation :rofl: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: