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Swinging bee
4th-August-2005, 01:41 PM
From my vantage point at the dj booth I see all styles of MJ danced by all sorts of people.
Every now and then I see some men performing drop, after drop, after drop, interspersed by the odd move or two. The look on his partners face at the time says it all. I see him throughout the evening carrying on oblivious to the ladies concern chin puffed out with pride, proud of his own expertise ....you have all seen them haven't you! looking everywhere except at his partner to see who is watching.
My question is ......'How many drops make a really good dance experience?' and what can you do to regulate them without putting the "offender" off dancing for ever....(BE KIND)

Ballroom queen
4th-August-2005, 01:54 PM
From my vantage point at the dj booth I see all styles of MJ danced by all sorts of people.
Every now and then I see some men performing drop, after drop, after drop, interspersed by the odd move or two. The look on his partners face at the time says it all. I see him throughout the evening carrying on oblivious to the ladies concern chin puffed out with pride, proud of his own expertise ....you have all seen them haven't you! looking everywhere except at his partner to see who is watching.
My question is ......'How many drops make a really good dance experience?' and what can you do to regulate them without putting the "offender" off dancing for ever....(BE KIND)

a couple?? - I danced with someone like this on Tuesday - he did a few drops, each time I resisted and just did a little dip, carrying all my own weight - I have bad knees and am nervous of drops with guys I don't know. He seemed to be leading me into them again - as if I was doing it wrong, but I kept on resisting. I considered saying I don't like doing drops with guys I don't know - but didn't. I probably should have done. Not helped by later dancing with two lovely guys that I do know who did drops and I did drop with. (was going to type "go down," but I don't mean that!!!) So people see me doing drops with others and then not with them.

So, what do others think?

Also, not really helped when these steps are taught at regular ceroc venues, I think the teachers should make more of a thing of telling the guys to ask "do you do drops?", or "would you like to do drops with me?"

Simon r
4th-August-2005, 01:58 PM
From my vantage point at the dj booth I see all styles of MJ danced by all sorts of people.
Every now and then I see some men performing drop, after drop, after drop, interspersed by the odd move or two. The look on his partners face at the time says it all. I see him throughout the evening carrying on oblivious to the ladies concern chin puffed out with pride, proud of his own expertise ....you have all seen them haven't you! looking everywhere except at his partner to see who is watching.
My question is ......'How many drops make a really good dance experience?' and what can you do to regulate them without putting the "offender" off dancing for ever....(BE KIND)


Worse than this i have seen a growing trend for intermediate dancers grabbing a beginner lady on her first or second night and then start dropping the lady ...
After grabbing the offenders afterwards the answer I had was well I did ask her if she did drops.........
Twat.......
Speaking to Sally last night she said that she had approached repeat offenders but was given whatever reply....
Now these are the real prats that we as a group need to deal with ...
At workshops i drum repeatedly in to the men that they should only ever perform drops in a safe manner with a willing partner who has also been instructed in the correct method to support there own weight.
I issue each student with rules and regs and warn them if I see them performing drops in an unsafe area or on un prepared dancers i will ban them from further workshops ..
This seems to work in our area ..
My worst experience seems to be central London ..
So far had to step in twice fo a newbie girl being thrown around..
It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has attended a workshop in London and what they were told ..

Simon

tsh
4th-August-2005, 02:14 PM
I had a lady ask me to lead some drops with her last night, because she didn't know any! I did point out that this maybe wasn't a very sensible plan!

Sean

Gus
4th-August-2005, 02:18 PM
My worst experience seems to be central London ..
So far had to step in twice fo a newbie girl being thrown around..
It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has attended a workshop in London and what they were told ..Have to agree. I was at a Central London Ceroc venue a few weeks back seing a real example of such behaviour .... the problem was that the offender was wearing a Taxi Dancer T-shirt :eek: :angry: What chance then that the rest of the guys there know what to do! [If someone from Ceroc wants to PM me I can tell them where and who.]

MartinHarper
4th-August-2005, 02:24 PM
Every now and then I see some men performing drop, after drop, after drop, interspersed by the odd move or two.

I've seen that style. It's not my preference, but it's popular enough, with both guys and gals. It seems to work well for songs like "straight to number one". Obviously both dancers need the right level of technique to pull it off.


looking everywhere except at his partner to see who is watching.

I'm quite capable of "showing off" and paying no attention to my partner, without doing any drops at all. To my mind, it's a seperate issue. At least with drops, the woman is at least involved as ballast.


How many drops make a really good dance experience?

The number of drops (0) doesn't make the dance experience, for me.

CJ
4th-August-2005, 02:29 PM
From my vantage point at the dj booth I see all styles of MJ danced by all sorts of people.
Every now and then I see some men performing drop, after drop, after drop, interspersed by the odd move or two. The look on his partners face at the time says it all. I see him throughout the evening carrying on oblivious to the ladies concern chin puffed out with pride, proud of his own expertise ....you have all seen them haven't you! looking everywhere except at his partner to see who is watching.
My question is ......'How many drops make a really good dance experience?' and what can you do to regulate them without putting the "offender" off dancing for ever....(BE KIND)

And there was me thinking it had been a night in Gla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:devil:

Rhythm King
4th-August-2005, 02:43 PM
The ISH was packed on Tuesday and people were doing lifts and drops all over the place. Thing is, some of them were taught during the intermediate class. Whilst the teaching may be correct in technique, the majority of people just don't have the floorcraft, or spatial awareness (or bl**ding common sense) to know when and where it's safe to do these. I admit I did some gentle leans, when I was in a safe area (ie, the corner by the stage), I even showed someone (a regular & trusted partner) a supported drop move I had seen elsewhere (thanks Chef :wink: ). But I did that outside the dancing area, away from other people and with a spotter and helpful advice from someone else, who knew the mechanics of the move from ballroom and whose technical knowledge I hold in the highest esteem.
Sooner or later, there will be an accident and the knee-jerk reaction will probably be to ban all such moves outside of showcase, whereas a little self-regulation (and self-restraint) now, would be a much better solution.

R-K

Chef
4th-August-2005, 03:12 PM
Let us face it. Drops are dangerous to both parties (and some bystanders) if done without expertise or thought. Then again I have been kicked, barged, stamped on by people walking backwards onto the floor even though I had been dancing in the same place for 2 minutes. I have been knocked to the ground by women that spin off balance and career across the dance floor. I have had flesh ripped from my arms and hands by rings, watches and bangles. I have even been stabbed in the shoulders, hands and neck by fingernails. Dance is definately not a "no risk" activity. But risks can be mimimised. This is my point.

I don't feel it is the number of drops that are done that is important rather than the skill with which they are done. I will admit that I have two personal hates with drops and they are

a) when guys put drops in as point in the music where they just don't fit.It makes me shudder when I see a guy is going through a fast rock and roll track and - wham - throws the woman into a fast drop that she clearly has no reason to expect in that place (nowhere near a break for instance).

b) Where the woman is lowered to near the floor and then waggled up and down in an attempt to see how much of this she can take before she gets whiplash.

So IF (work with this for a while) it is a matter of the skill levels of the practioners how can this be raised to a sufficient level?

Lounge Lizard has offered in the past to give free lessons on safety in drops to any organiser that contacts him. There are workshops to go on.

There are just some people that are just as thick as two short planks and don't seem to be able to learn anything no matter how well you teach them. So if they have been around a while and they are rubbish in their normal dancing the chances are they are going to be rubbish in drops as well. So if your partner is complete rubbish for the first 30 seconds a quick yell of "no drops" may head off a painful experience.

The problem with drops is that guys want to do them and ladies like to do them (when done well). I have urged people in the past to try and form a working alliance between partners purely for the sake of having someone to work through these things carefully and thoughtfully off of the dance floor where you can have crash mats or cushions.

Guess what? After three months of trying, all of these people have come back and told me that they can't find someone who will work with them. It is like people only want to have excellent dance partners fully functioning and straight out of the packet. Very few people are interested in forming dance partnerships to develop each other.

We have the same problem in the medicines and drugs industry. Everybody wants safe and effective drugs to cure their sick children. They want the drugs to have been tested and proved to be safe in children. Curiously they won't volunteer their child for a testing program. Oh know, all the dangerous and hard work has to be done on someone else children. That is why there are almost no drugs licensed for use in children.

BTW Swinging Bee - If you are looking down at your partner you are probably straining your back and dripping sweat on her. Did I mentionthat I love dancing to your DJ sets.

Lory
4th-August-2005, 03:28 PM
Upto a maximum of three, even if it's with someone I know, trust and like doing them with!

Too many hurt my knees and ruin the impact anyway! :rolleyes:

DavidB
4th-August-2005, 03:54 PM
Maybe 4 or 5.

Per year.

Clive Long
4th-August-2005, 03:57 PM
Maybe 4 or 5.

Per year.
Is that the number of times you liked to be dropped Mr. B? :waycool:

CRL

Little Em
4th-August-2005, 03:57 PM
a couple of drops in time to the music is great. :drool:


but if the lean or drop involves me having to have my hand round the guys neck if he is all drippingly sweaty.............ewwwwwwwwwwww :sick:


Em x

Sparkles
4th-August-2005, 03:58 PM
Is that the number of times you liked to be dropped Mr. B? :waycool:

Oooh! Me! Me! I wanna try! :clap:

...actually, joking aside, it would be fun to try leading DavidB - and it'd give poor Lily a rest from my houndings too :sick:

Simon r
4th-August-2005, 04:04 PM
Let us face it. Drops are dangerous to both parties (and some bystanders) if done without expertise or thought. Then again I have been kicked, barged, stamped on by people walking backwards onto the floor even though I had been dancing in the same place for 2 minutes. I have been knocked to the ground by women that spin off balance and career across the dance floor. I have had flesh ripped from my arms and hands by rings, watches and bangles. I have even been stabbed in the shoulders, hands and neck by fingernails. Dance is definately not a "no risk" activity. But risks can be mimimised. This is my point.

I don't feel it is the number of drops that are done that is important rather than the skill with which they are done. I will admit that I have two personal hates with drops and they are

a) when guys put drops in as point in the music where they just don't fit.It makes me shudder when I see a guy is going through a fast rock and roll track and - wham - throws the woman into a fast drop that she clearly has no reason to expect in that place (nowhere near a break for instance).

b) Where the woman is lowered to near the floor and then waggled up and down in an attempt to see how much of this she can take before she gets whiplash.

So IF (work with this for a while) it is a matter of the skill levels of the practioners how can this be raised to a sufficient level?

Lounge Lizard has offered in the past to give free lessons on safety in drops to any organiser that contacts him. There are workshops to go on.

There are just some people that are just as thick as two short planks and don't seem to be able to learn anything no matter how well you teach them. So if they have been around a while and they are rubbish in their normal dancing the chances are they are going to be rubbish in drops as well. So if your partner is complete rubbish for the first 30 seconds a quick yell of "no drops" may head off a painful experience.

The problem with drops is that guys want to do them and ladies like to do them (when done well).

:yeah:

But not really my point .....
What I really have a problem with is newbie ladies being thrown around the dance floor it scares the **** out of them.
We want to promote a safe environment for people to learn at there own speed which will encourage ladies and gents to return.
Asking a newbie " would you mind doing drops" she would not have a clue what you are talking about and we are not talking about beginner or new intermediate. This is aimed at intermediate men who are well aware of there own capabilities.
Floorcraft as well (again this seems to be really bad in London) iknow we have had this as a thread before, but the standard is lower than i have ever seen before.

DavidB
4th-August-2005, 04:06 PM
it would be fun to try leading DavidBI'm unleadable. Ask Franck

Minnie M
4th-August-2005, 04:09 PM
Personally, I prefer lifts, less dangerous than the drops :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
4th-August-2005, 04:14 PM
Personally, I prefer lifts, less dangerous than the drops :whistle:Don't worry - it's only the very last bit that hurts.

Sparkles
4th-August-2005, 04:16 PM
I'm unleadable. Ask Franck
Chicken!

Zebra Woman
4th-August-2005, 04:22 PM
No more than 15 - 20 per dance for me please :drool: :innocent:

And ONLY IF THERE IS SPACE. :what:

Little Em
4th-August-2005, 04:24 PM
No more than 15 - 20 per dance for me please :drool: :innocent:

And ONLY IF THERE IS SPACE. :what:





im with you on that ZW :cheers:


E x

Rhythm King
4th-August-2005, 04:40 PM
Personally, I prefer lifts, less dangerous than the drops :whistle:

Rather depends on who is in the lift with you, wouldn't you say?

Little Em
4th-August-2005, 04:47 PM
Rather depends on who is in the lift with you, wouldn't you say?



oh i say! :wink:


:hug:

LMC
4th-August-2005, 04:50 PM
My question is ......'How many drops make a really good dance experience?' and what can you do to regulate them without putting the "offender" off dancing for ever....(BE KIND)

How many? - don't know, insufficient experience but looking forward to finding out once I have a bit more confidence :D

Regulation? - well, I can contribute here: I've noticed that smaller (and frequently younger and better looking girls) get dropped way more frequently/earlier in their MJ 'careers'. Being 5'9" and, er, not skinny, far fewer men attempt to drop me than they do smaller girls. So if you don't like drops, just eat more and wear higher heels. Easy.

robd
4th-August-2005, 04:54 PM
:yeah:

But not really my point .....
What I really have a problem with is newbie ladies being thrown around the dance floor it scares the **** out of them.


:yeah:

A new lady came along with us to class last week and one of the notorious move monsters (who is also a Taxi :sick: ) gave her what can charitably be described as a good workout. He slung her around at a ridiculous tempo for a firstmover and you'll not be surprised to discover she didn't return last night. Don't know for sure if she was put off by this or didn't attend for another reason but it's not the first time he's done this and I am sure it will not be the last.

Franck
4th-August-2005, 04:58 PM
I'm unleadable. Ask Franck
I wouldn't go that far :wink: though the experience was interesting. Amazing that someone who is clearly very aware of his partner's (and his own) momentum, balance and weight distribution when leading, seems to lose that ability when following!
Must try it again when my leading skills have improved.

As to how many drops? For me, I would prefer none, I am aware that some of my partners would expect or wish a few drops / dips, and I occasionally lead one or two when the music inspires me, but drops have never tempted me. I seem to recall that DavidB lead me into a deep drop that evening... :innocent:

DavidB
4th-August-2005, 05:14 PM
Amazing that someone who is clearly very aware of his partner's (and his own) momentum, balance and weight distribution when leading, seems to lose that ability when following!You complicated things. You made me move my feet!

Franck
4th-August-2005, 05:25 PM
You complicated things. You made me move my feet!Leader's prerogative, and anyway, I didn't make you, I invited you to follow :na:

Minnie M
4th-August-2005, 05:38 PM
Rather depends on who is in the lift with you, wouldn't you say?
:rofl: :rofl: I'd almost forgotten about that :whistle:

Chef
4th-August-2005, 06:09 PM
:yeah:

But not really my point .....
What I really have a problem with is newbie ladies being thrown around the dance floor it scares the **** out of them.
We want to promote a safe environment for people to learn at there own speed which will encourage ladies and gents to return.
Asking a newbie " would you mind doing drops" she would not have a clue what you are talking about and we are not talking about beginner or new intermediate. This is aimed at intermediate men who are well aware of there own capabilities.
Floorcraft as well (again this seems to be really bad in London) iknow we have had this as a thread before, but the standard is lower than i have ever seen before.

Actually Simon I agreed with what you said before and I agree with what you say above. "Newbie abuse" is something I have no time for and is usually perpertrated by the evil or inadequate. They ensure that a newbies formative experience is thoroughly unpleasant and that does nobody any favours.

What I said was in addition to what you said and more aimed at those that had gotten off of the basics and were now aspiring to have drops in their toolbox. I ws just imploring them to work together in a controlled and receptive manner so that both parties would be able to do them with the required skill.

As for the standard of floorcraft - :angry: Don't get me started. Some people don't seem to be able to end a dance in the same county that they started it.

Goes and listens to whale music while laying in a darkened room.

Ballroom queen
4th-August-2005, 06:53 PM
We have the same problem in the medicines and drugs industry. Everybody wants safe and effective drugs to cure their sick children. They want the drugs to have been tested and proved to be safe in children. Curiously they won't volunteer their child for a testing program. Oh know, all the dangerous and hard work has to be done on someone else children. That is why there are almost no drugs licensed for use in children.


:yeah: :yeah:

(but we have to use them anyway :tears: :tears: )

Ballroom queen
4th-August-2005, 07:00 PM
Back on thread....



The ISH was packed on Tuesday and people were doing lifts and drops all over the place. Thing is, some of them were taught during the intermediate class. Whilst the teaching may be correct in technique, the majority of people just don't have the floorcraft, or spatial awareness (or bl**ding common sense) to know when and where it's safe to do these. ...snip....
Sooner or later, there will be an accident and the knee-jerk reaction will probably be to ban all such moves outside of showcase, whereas a little self-regulation (and self-restraint) now, would be a much better solution.

R-K

:yeah:

and that would be a shame.

I agree with whoever said if the first 30 seconds of dancing are a bit rubbish then drops are likely to be too - similarly I have danced with new fab men, within 30 seconds the dancing has been awesome and I have then been led into awesome drops, hardly carried my weight and its been fab.

I think when drops / lifts are taught there needs to be a huge emphasis on "don't do it unless there is room", and "ask your partner, even if you have seen her do the move with someone else."

RogerR
4th-August-2005, 07:56 PM
A truly great dance experience, for enjoyment, is when I sense my partner is enjoying dancing with me and to the beat bar and phrase of the music. No dips drops etc are NEEDED. BUT when I find a partner and we dance really well together then sometimes dips drops etc can add to the experience, then there is no need for the girl's feet to touch the floor till the track ends.
I have done aerials with a girl on her first Ceroc night BUT I did know she was a professional ballet teacher so she was certainly not a new dancer! And she kept coming back and is still dancing.

Floorcraft is vital and lifts drops etc. require there to be a reliably available floor space just big enough and the dancers to see the space develop during their dancing.

MartinHarper
4th-August-2005, 09:10 PM
If drops are taught in classes, then drops will be performed in freestyle. Most MJ dancers, including myself, learn mostly by trial and error, as classes tend to be focused on "FUN!" (Thanks Gus) rather than dancing. Accordingly, most MJ dancers will go through a period when they are attempting to do drops in freestyle, but cannot, just as most MJ dancers will go through a period when they are attempting to do the first move in freestyle, but cannot.

I am sure that the many great dancers on this forum have never ever led a drop that made their partner feel insecure, nor ever hurt their partner in any way. However, whilst experienced dancers continue to teach and demonstrate drops so freely, we will have to expect and cope with the unwashed masses attempting to ape their superiors.

Swinging bee
5th-August-2005, 09:25 AM
from CHEF.....
BTW Swinging Bee - If you are looking down at your partner you are probably straining your back and dripping sweat on her. Did I mention that I love dancing to your DJ sets.




You are Soooo kind. we are back at Bookham on the 27th, hope we can keep up the good work. look forward to your interpretation of some "NEW music ". :clap: S&B ,style, of course... J & L.

KatieR
5th-August-2005, 01:21 PM
Actually Simon I agreed with what you said before and I agree with what you say above. "Newbie abuse" is something I have no time for and is usually perpertrated by the evil or inadequate. They ensure that a newbies formative experience is thoroughly unpleasant and that does nobody any favours.

As for the standard of floorcraft - :angry: Don't get me started. Some people don't seem to be able to end a dance in the same county that they started it.
.

:yeah: :yeah:

It was only a matter of time before I got involved in this discussion. I totally agree. My first experience of learning drops was in a controlled environment after a class when pretty much everyone had left and i asked the instructor to show me some basic drops and then went on to have more coaching in the subject so that i would know exactly what i was meant to be doing. I think I was one of the lucky ones although I do find sometimes it is JUST as frightening when some drop-hot-shot throws me into some back breaking drop that i wouldn't even consider attempting on a social dance floor and also not before have some instruction on the particular drop in question.

For all the new dancers out there reading the forum, i think i have made mention of this on a different thread that, when you are dancing with someone new, always stipulate whether you want drops in the dance and make sure he hears you. If he doesn't listen, dont be afraid to stop the dance. If you feel in any way unsafe. Stop.

jockey
12th-August-2005, 12:41 AM
If drops are taught in classes, then drops will be performed in freestyle. Most MJ dancers, including myself, learn mostly by trial and error, as classes tend to be focused on "FUN!" (Thanks Gus) rather than dancing. Accordingly, most MJ dancers will go through a period when they are attempting to do drops in freestyle, but cannot, just as most MJ dancers will go through a period when they are attempting to do the first move in freestyle, but cannot.

I am sure that the many great dancers on this forum have never ever led a drop that made their partner feel insecure, nor ever hurt their partner in any way. However, whilst experienced dancers continue to teach and demonstrate drops so freely, we will have to expect and cope with the unwashed masses attempting to ape their superiors.
I learnt my drops techniques in specialist drops workshops at Camber Sands taught by Peter Phillips. I have probably done about 30 such workshops. Has Peter ever been invited to teach drops at Ceroc venues and if not why not?
I would have thought 6 such workshops would be a minimum requirement prior to "attempting to do drops in freestyle". Drops cowboys are getting us all a bad name..

MartinHarper
12th-August-2005, 01:17 AM
I would have thought 6 such workshops would be a minimum requirement prior to "attempting to do drops in freestyle".

Do you know of any operators who enforce such a requirement?

Zuhal
12th-August-2005, 08:02 AM
I think when drops / lifts are taught there needs to be a huge emphasis on "don't do it unless there is room", and "ask your partner, even if you have seen her do the move with someone else."

I rarely do drops but I will incorporate the one that has just been taught if the conditions and my partner are suitable.

Space
My knowledge of my partners ability
Partners state of mind, back, shoes, jewellery.
Partners assent.

My beef is a new partner who has observed the controlled performance above who thinks that she can throw herself at the floor and I will catch her. :tears: They only get away with it once because they are then in "double handed anticipation busters" (DHAB's) :) for the rest of the three minutes.

Zuhal

El Salsero Gringo
12th-August-2005, 08:16 AM
I would have thought 6 such workshops would be a minimum requirement prior to "attempting to do drops in freestyle". Drops cowboys are getting us all a bad name..No, I don't think so. "Drop Cowboys" are giving themselves a bad name. Why on earth should an arbitrary number of arbitrary workshops be a minimum requirement? Who and how would you enforce this? (Badges with gold stars on - one for each workshop?) Why six? Why not four? Or two, and six months practice? Is there a special "Holding a drops Workshop" workshop?

I feel a letter to the Daily Mail coming on.

David Bailey
12th-August-2005, 09:37 AM
Who and how would you enforce this?
Obviously, this is a job for the CerocStabulary - probably the Special (Drop) Branch.

TiggsTours
12th-August-2005, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=KatieRFor all the new dancers out there reading the forum, i think i have made mention of this on a different thread that, when you are dancing with someone new, always stipulate whether you want drops in the dance and make sure he hears you. If he doesn't listen, dont be afraid to stop the dance. If you feel in any way unsafe. Stop.[/QUOTE]

Although I agree with this, in principle, I actually think it should be the other way round.

As a female dancer, I would get fed up having to say to someone "I don't do drops" before every single dance, and I've also had the comment made to me by guys who don't like doing drops themselves that they find this very strange when said to them, and stops them really enjoying the dance, and putting their everything into it, it takes the fun and spontaneity out of things right from the start.

I'd say that as the person leading, and therefore the one with the control over whether you put drops into a dance, it should be up to the guys who want to do drops to ask the girl if she's OK with that.

Personally, I'm perfectly capable of doing drops, I just don't enjoy them, I think they take away from a dance, and make the dance all about the moves that are put in, rather than the style, fun, musicality and interaction between the partners, which for me is what dancing is really all about.

Donna
12th-August-2005, 02:28 PM
As a female dancer, I would get fed up having to say to someone "I don't do drops" before every single dance, and I've also had the comment made to me by guys who don't like doing drops themselves that they find this very strange when said to them, and stops them really enjoying the dance, and putting their everything into it, it takes the fun and spontaneity out of things right from the start.

Why should a woman always have to tell a man that she doesn't do drops??? The man is leading, so if he intending on doing any drops with her anyway, should always do so before he starts. Someone could have a bad back and is limited to doing so much. I'm sure people have been hurt before through them not thinking first.

TiggsTours
12th-August-2005, 02:42 PM
Why should a woman always have to tell a man that she doesn't do drops??? The man is leading, so if he intending on doing any drops with her anyway, should always do so before he starts. Someone could have a bad back and is limited to doing so much. I'm sure people have been hurt before through them not thinking first.


You seem to have mis-read my email, I was saying exactly that, I was replying to Katie R's email saying that the lady should tell the man.

Donna
12th-August-2005, 03:06 PM
You seem to have mis-read my email, I was saying exactly that, I was replying to Katie R's email saying that the lady should tell the man.

Ah I scrolled down to fast then got disturbed by a phonecall, therefor mis-read it. I quickly scanned through that one then replied. Soz. :blush:

Dazzle
12th-August-2005, 03:31 PM
Why should a woman always have to tell a man that she doesn't do drops??? The man is leading, so if he intending on doing any drops with her anyway, should always do so before he starts. Someone could have a bad back and is limited to doing so much. I'm sure people have been hurt before through them not thinking first.

Of course the man should ask! But often they don't. SO is it worthwhile not saying anything because he didn't ask or protecting your own health and safety and speaking up if he doesn't bother? That is even more important if you have an injury. Women look at me bizarrely (maybe they do that all thetime?) when I ask them every time if they do drops or have an injury or would prefer I did not do certain types of moves. I do it all the time with people I don't know and/or have not danced with before. But if it is someone whose ability I know, I don't. If they had an injury I was unaware of I would hope they would politely tell me as we made our way onto the floor. Men cannot multi-task so why should you assume we have the powers of telepathy also!

TiggsTours
12th-August-2005, 03:37 PM
Of course the man should ask! But often they don't. SO is it worthwhile not saying anything because he didn't ask or protecting your own health and safety and speaking up if he doesn't bother? That is even more important if you have an injury. Women look at me bizarrely (maybe they do that all thetime?) when I ask them every time if they do drops or have an injury or would prefer I did not do certain types of moves. I do it all the time with people I don't know and/or have not danced with before. But if it is someone whose ability I know, I don't. If they had an injury I was unaware of I would hope they would politely tell me as we made our way onto the floor. Men cannot multi-task so why should you assume we have the powers of telepathy also!


What I was trying to say was, if a guy likes doing drops, he should ask the girl if that's OK with her, if he doesn't know her. As a girl, if you have an injury (this goes for the guy too) you should always tell your partner before you start dancing with them, whether you know them or not, you have a responsibility to guard your own health. If I hadn't told a guy I don't do drops and he did one, I'd tell him at that point that I'd rather he didn't. I do think that as a guy, if you're not prepared to ask first, you should at least test the water with a little drop first, rather than throwing your partner full pelt into a death roll! I'm not suggesting you do (I have no idea who you are) but some guys do.

Donna
12th-August-2005, 03:54 PM
Of course the man should ask! But often they don't. SO is it worthwhile not saying anything because he didn't ask or protecting your own health and safety and speaking up if he doesn't bother?

Well hello Dazzle,

Yes I agree with you there that if the lady does have some sort of problem then she should say so..but even then some women might just decide to take a risk and might not say anything at all. The man should always ask first anyway, and then if she was to admit she has a slight problem but will give it a whirl anyway (know this sounds stupid, but I know of a few women who have done this) then he might not want to be made responsible for hurting her so will refuse to do any drops just to be on the safe side.


Women look at me bizarrely (maybe they do that all thetime?)

Oh they do!! They told me it's those funny faces you pull!!! :D :rofl:

Dazzle
12th-August-2005, 04:49 PM
Oh they do!! They told me it's those funny faces you pull!!! :D :rofl:

It's the only one I have! :tears:

MartinHarper
12th-August-2005, 05:38 PM
I've also had the comment made to me by guys who don't like doing drops themselves that they find this very strange when said to them, and stops them really enjoying the dance, and putting their everything into it, it takes the fun and spontaneity out of things right from the start.

For the little it's worth, it doesn't bother me. In fact, it's kinda relaxing, because it means I can rely on my partner not to throw herself at the floor at random intervals throughout the dance.

Zuhal
12th-August-2005, 06:00 PM
For the little it's worth, it doesn't bother me. In fact, it's kinda relaxing, because it means I can rely on my partner not to throw herself at the floor at random intervals throughout the dance.
:yeah: :yeah:

Zuhal

KatieR
13th-August-2005, 02:10 PM
I'd say that as the person leading, and therefore the one with the control over whether you put drops into a dance, it should be up to the guys who want to do drops to ask the girl if she's OK with that.
.

In theory, yes this is probably what should happen. But how many of us ladies have been thrown into drops by guys who think they know everything already. I also would like to have some control over my own safety.

Donna
15th-August-2005, 12:07 PM
In theory, yes this is probably what should happen. But how many of us ladies have been thrown into drops by guys who think they know everything already. I also would like to have some control over my own safety.

I remember once this Australian guy who was travelling around the UK to dance came to Wrexham once and you know some of these Australian Cerocers just get hyperactive when it comes to doing the dangerous moves. He did a drop....and believe me it was a proper drop....right on my back!!! I was winded terribly!!!! (Very much like Jim Carrey was when he was rushing for that plane in LIAR LIAR and ran fell straight out of the gateway flat on his back!!!)

Lounge Lizard
15th-August-2005, 01:51 PM
The number of drops per track should depend upon many things IMHO
the type of track (blues and swing room music is very suitable to drops etc)
the available space on the dance floor
the dancing level of you & your partner (if you dont know then play safe)
the condition of the dance floor etc. etc.

The venue organiser could and should influence the dancers in a very crowded venue - it does not take much for the DJ to announce something like "very crowded tonight please be carefull with the drops & seducers"

Workshops - in an ideal world yes dancers should attend them, but all to often they ignore the safety tips and just want to rush into the move.
Teaching them in regular classes is a double edged sword for the same reasons

I have been teaching these moves since 1999, I have three instructional DVD's full of drops (sorry but could not resist the plug)
I have stood on stage and really nagged the dancers to focus on the safety side - but never sure if it gets thru to them

To cover a few pointers raised
Yes I do offer a free class in dips & drops, but these moves are not always suited to regular class nights
No I have not taught for Ceroc

Although these moves can be dangerous, I suspect more injuries are caused by heavy handed guys trying to unscrew the ladies shoulder with their bad leads than leading Dips drops & seducers
peter

Zebra Woman
15th-August-2005, 02:10 PM
The number of drops per track should depend upon many things IMHO
the type of track (blues and swing room music is very suitable to drops etc)
the available space on the dance floor
the dancing level of you & your partner (if you dont know then play safe)
the condition of the dance floor etc. etc.

The venue organiser could and should influence the dancers in a very crowded venue - it does not take much for the DJ to announce something like "very crowded tonight please be carefull with the drops & seducers"

Workshops - in an ideal world yes dancers should attend them, but all to often they ignore the safety tips and just want to rush into the move.
Teaching them in regular classes is a double edged sword for the same reasons

I have been teaching these moves since 1999, I have three instructional DVD's full of drops (sorry but could not resist the plug)
I have stood on stage and really nagged the dancers to focus on the safety side - but never sure if it gets thru to them

To cover a few pointers raised
Yes I do offer a free class in dips & drops, but these moves are not always suited to regular class nights
No I have not taught for Ceroc

Although these moves can be dangerous, I suspect more injuries are caused by heavy handed guys trying to unscrew the ladies shoulder with their bad leads than leading Dips drops & seducers
peter

:yeah:
My worst injuries are from bad general leading, especially pretzels and backhanders.

That said, I have wrenched my back being pushed back into a layback (hand on my right shoulder). Another time I was laid into a dip in a half-Nelson - my right wrist which got crushed between the guy's thigh and my lower back.....Ouch!

All in all I'm happy to live with the risks (so long as there is plenty of floor space and the music is conducive) as the rewards are just :drool: .

My favourite at the moment is a dip where Captain Fantastic lowers me all the way to the floor with just a hand behind my neck - no hands at all. My hands are by my sides. :worthy:

Donna
15th-August-2005, 02:33 PM
the available space on the dance floor

I agree. Anyone who might consider trying drops on a crowded dance floor has no sense at all!! I had that done before and nearly got kicked in the face by someone wearing three inch heels. Not good!!! :mad:




The venue organiser could and should influence the dancers in a very crowded venue - it does not take much for the DJ to announce something like "very crowded tonight please be carefull with the drops & seducers"

Yeah but some just don't bother to say anything do they? It doesn't take much effort to do so.






Although these moves can be dangerous, I suspect more injuries are caused by heavy handed guys trying to unscrew the ladies shoulder with their bad leads than leading Dips drops & seducers
peter

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

DavidB
16th-August-2005, 02:35 PM
Maybe 4 or 5.

Per year.I have now done my normal quota of 4 drops in a year - one with Franck, two with Lily, and one with KatieR last night. (Happy Birthday Katie!)

The final drop will be save for a special occasion, unless I can get Clayton drunk enough on Saturday.

David

Purple Sparkler
16th-August-2005, 02:53 PM
The venue organiser could and should influence the dancers in a very crowded venue - it does not take much for the DJ to announce something like "very crowded tonight please be carefull with the drops & seducers"


Not just the drops and seducers. I've seen particularly irresponsible couples doing aerials mid-freestyle at places like Fulham and Hammersmith.

And I myself have been the victim of an over-zealous partner who put me in a lift which he was too strong for me to avoid being in, and my foot whacked the demo for the evening round the head.

Not to mention the guy who tried to put me into a Jumping Jack inside the HMS President- I was very glad I managed to resist that one (though heaven only knows how I had the strength with which I had to push down into the floor to do it).

For me, the drops and seducers are best as a light sprinkling through a track with some breaks- too many and they get old, but throw in one or two and it makes the dance lovely.

Donna
16th-August-2005, 03:14 PM
I have now done my normal quota of 4 drops in a year - one with Franck, two with Lily, and one with KatieR last night. (Happy Birthday Katie!)

The final drop will be save for a special occasion, unless I can get Clayton drunk enough on Saturday.

David

you dropped Franck?? :eek: I dunno but I love watching two men dance together. Sorry, but I think it's blo ody hilarious!!!

Sparkles
23rd-August-2005, 03:58 PM
I'm unleadable. Ask Franck

I would like to issue a full retraction of my 'Chicken!' comment earlier in this thread.
Last night I was allowed to lead DavidB for the last track of the evening - and, far from being 'unleadable', it was a very pleasant dance.
Thank you David :flower:.

S. x

Franck
23rd-August-2005, 04:13 PM
I would like to issue a full retraction of my 'Chicken!' comment earlier in this thread.
Last night I was allowed to lead DavidB for the last track of the evening - and, far from being 'unleadable', it was a very pleasant dance.
In that case, I need to retract too, Sparkles is clearly a much better lead than I am, and I take full responsibility for any failure to lead DavidB successfully :nice:

I will practise harder and try again at the BFG in October.

Donna
23rd-August-2005, 04:27 PM
and I take full responsibility for any failure to lead DavidB successfully :nice:

Now that I would love to see!! :clap: