Who's responsible?

[Andy McGregor]

Some women like to be led with an element of "firmness" or "weight", and dislike leads that are too "vague" or "wimpy". I agree - no woman likes to be led roughly. However, some women like to be lead in ways that other women would find rough.

If anyone asks me to lead them lightly, I want to know if they are injured - and if they are, where the injury is. Isn't that just common sense?Some women are a very light follow - which I regard as the ultimate. Whilst other women require a fair bit of force to get them moving in the right direction and other women require a wrestling match to get them into any move :tears:

And, some women have injuries that require you to be careful, not do leans, dips or seducers. Which brings me onto my reason for starting this thread. I've had a few occasions where I'm about to do a gentle comb lean or similar lean that any able bodied partner should be able to do and my partner stops dead and gives me a death stare saying "I've got a bad back"; or, even worse, you do a move and your parner winces and blames you for hurting her because she has a bad shoulder, elbow, neck or back! I think the woman should have warned me before we started dancing - but how can I say "you should have told me you've got and injury" to a woman who's holding her shoulder and wincing :what:

So, who's responsible, the man for doing a normal lead that hurt a woman with a pre-existing injury or the woman for not warning the man to go gently?

[Almost an Angel]

So, who's responsible, the man for doing a normal lead that hurt a woman with a pre-existing injury or the woman for not warning the man to go gently?

Andy there are a lot of grey shades here I don't think it's as clear as 'the man' or 'the woman'.

Speaking as a person who is noticably injured (Bad wrist - for which I wear a brace) I'm amazed at the number of people who either don't see it, :confused: (I know it's darks guys but it's unlikely here as it's very noticable - as soon as you go to grab my right wrist it's there :confused: ).
Or even worse even though I've said they need to be careful etc.... I need a light lead .... I don't do drops requiring me to take my weight with that arm, (although some dips are OK) or they need to be aware my wrist doesn't bend (kinda interesting when someone's trying to show off their latest new move and my arm is having none of it!!!) :D :D

I admit there are some exceptions to that rule and I am quite happy with certain partners (whom I know well), but as a general rule I am quite able to cope with most things that are thrown my direction. :D

Going back to your point, about who is responsible, I feel it falls equally upon both partners - the man should always ask the lady if she is happy with drops and leans etc....(just in case she has an injury and out of courtesy) and the woman also has a responsibility to let her partner know that she has an injury and can't do certain moves.

It's the old - just because you've seen a person do a move doesn't mean they would be happy to do that move with you, always check!!!!

Angel xx

[under par]

Some women are a very light follow - which I regard as the ultimate. Whilst other women require a fair bit of force to get them moving in the right direction and other women require a wrestling match to get them into any move :tears:



So, who's responsible, the man for doing a normal lead that hurt a woman with a pre-existing injury or the woman for not warning the man to go gently?

Quite straight forward this. I has to be the woman/follower at fault.

IT IS COMMON SENSE THAT IF YOU ARE INJURED THAN THE LEADER NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT IT.

How else can he ensure he doesn't cause pain! :angry:

Andy I think it should be an existing injury not pre-existing. As pre it existing it did not exist!!!!!(I could be wrong but it sounds correct :D )

[Lynn]

I think men should also mention if they have an injury. Men can get injured by women when dancing too!

[KatieR]

Whats a smuf?

[Rebecca]

Whats a smuf?
'Small-Minded-Upbraiding-Females', who blame guys for everything!!!

There are two people dancing. We manage to communicate with each other the most complex moves with the most subtle of leads/follows, but we can't communicate when we don't wish to do a move???? I simply don't understand. I was dropped on Friday night as a result of a simple mis-communication on BOTH sides. I got up and spent the next few moments desperately trying to console the poor guy who dropped me. As far as I was concerned it was neither of our faults. If I had an injury however I would either a) not dance if it was that bad, or b) speak to my partner.

Surely. . . . ? :confused:

Although Angel, I have to agree, I would have thought a wrist brace would be communication enough??

[Andy McGregor]

Whats a smuf?It's a smurf without any rs ...

[stewart38]

It's a smurf without any rs ...

I voted smurf as I didnt think it was serious thread but i see it is now

can moderator change my vote to 'blame the women' as I would hate to think Im different.

I keep thinking of sparticus when i read this thread

who responsible, im sparticus, trip to GP i think

[Cruella]

Some women are a very light follow - which I regard as the ultimate. Whilst other women require a fair bit of force to get them moving in the right direction and other women require a wrestling match to get them into any move :tears:

And, some women have injuries that require you to be careful, not do leans, dips or seducers. Which brings me onto my reason for starting this thread. I've had a few occasions where I'm about to do a gentle comb lean or similar lean that any able bodied partner should be able to do and my partner stops dead and gives me a death stare saying "I've got a bad back"; or, even worse, you do a move and your parner winces and blames you for hurting her because she has a bad shoulder, elbow, neck or back! I think the woman should have warned me before we started dancing - but how can I say "you should have told me you've got and injury" to a woman who's holding her shoulder and wincing :what:

So, who's responsible, the man for doing a normal lead that hurt a woman with a pre-existing injury or the woman for not warning the man to go gently?
As i woman with whiplash resulting from a rough dance. :tears: I am interested to know whether it would put you off asking a lady to dance if you knew she had an injury that would restrict the moves you could do with her? I personally hate a strong lead, would much rather have someone gentle but precise. The lightest lead i've ever had the pleasure of dancing with is David B. I can remember having an awsome dance where we actually just shadowed each other without touching hands. :drool:

[ChrisA]

I am interested to know whether it would put you off asking a lady to dance if you knew she had an injury that would restrict the moves you could do with her?
Not in the least.

Someone I like dancing with a lot now, had recently dislocated a shoulder when I first asked her to dance... why she was at Hammersmith with such an injury is quite extraordinary, but she wanted the whole dance without using her right arm.

It was a challenge, but fun all the same.

And then someone asked me to dance not that long ago while my right arm tendon injury was at its worst. I'd made a mental note not to ask her already, cos I could tell from watching she wasn't the gentlest of follows. So I said Ok, if you don't mind a left-arm-only lead. She was a bit taken aback but it was Ok.

The final situation that comes to mind was when I danced with a lovely lady, a very nice dancer indeed, as it turned out, who had only one hand. She didn't mind using the wrist, so although things were a little limited it still worked out well.

I think you have to just go for it in those situations - it puts you on the spot, makes you think a bit harder, but very rewarding when it goes right.

[spindr]

Speaking as a person who is noticably injured (Bad wrist - for which I wear a brace) I'm amazed at the number of people who either don't see it, :confused:
I just thought you were some kind of Star Trek, or Michael Jackson fan :devil:

I guess some people might treat it as if it were acting as a plaster cast -- if there was a problem then you would obviously mention it -- probably better for everyone to play safe than sorry.

Anyway what's the problem, there's plenty of right-to-left handed moves :)

SpinDr.

P.S. I generally explain that since I have a bad back, my follower shouldn't act on any lemming-like impulses as the floor doesn't look terribly soft to me -- generally has the desired effect.

[Zebra Woman]

'Small-Minded-Upbraiding-Females', who blame guys for everything!!!



Oh dear..not me I hope :tears:

I am only angry with the first man who injured me when I was a 6 month beginner, no one else.

He laughed at me when I came back after 'recovering' and mocked me for being so 'delicate'. No remorse at all. He continued to laugh as he brute forced me into moves way off the beat. I couldn't do a class if he was in the rotation I was too scared. He was banned shortly after that though. He is unique amongst all men. Luckily.

Since then I have taken full responsibilty for telling the men of my shoulder injury. It's more of an injury waiting to re-happen these days and I allow 30 seconds dancing to establish whether I need to say something to the guy. I just ask to be led more gently that is usually enough and I then have a lovely dance with them. I know some women prefer a stronger lead, that's fine for them :hug: . I'm not after a wet lettuce lead btw, it's smooth and elasticy and gentle but still definite.


I would say 90% of men have never heard me mention any injuries at all, because there has been no need. Is that OK?

On average I would comment on a guy's lead about once a month at most, less than 1 in 1000 dances so not a massive problem to me at all.

Sometimes I will pretend to already have the injury I think I'm going to get, if a guy is hurting or scaring me with his leading! :devil: Sorry :sad:

eg.

bad trodden on foot if he seems to not be watching for floorspace
broken fingers if he hurts my fingers
Sprained ankle if he attempts and arial without asking
bad shoulder if he wants to do multiple double speed pretzels

I have had all these injuries for real at some point (fingers were mountain-biking)

A long time ago I had an incident where a yanker was jealous that I had been having more dances with his smooth gentle friend than him. 3 dances with him would lead to 5 days of painkillers and even a trip to the osteopath! So I had cut him back to one dance per night.

I felt absolutely awful and put it off for weeks, but he would not let me not dance with him so I was forced to tell him how much it was hurting and show him how I needed him to lead me if he wanted more than one dance with me.

He was a bit hurt but then got stuck in, and over several weeks we worked together and he changed his lead for me. I felt honoured that he cared that much and so glad that I had come clean. He still prefers his vigorous lead but will do smooth for my friends and I on request. :clap:

[Lynn]

He was a bit hurt but then got stuck in, and over several weeks we worked together and he changed his lead for me. I felt honoured that he cared that much and so glad that I had come clean. He still prefers his vigorous lead but will do smooth for my friends and I on request. :clap: Well done for saying something :worthy: and well done to him for changing. :clap:

[Rebecca]

Oh dear..not me I hope :tears:

Of course not, and especially not on your birthday :flower: . It was a bit provocative of me I know (I was obviously a bit stroppy at the time), but I still think communication is the key, which it appears you have mastered.

[Cruella]

but I still think communication is the key, which it appears you have mastered.
I would love the men to tell me if i was doing something they didn't like. How else am i to improve? So guys please feel free to tell me how i can improve my follow. :flower: I don't get offended easily. :hug:
Steps back and waits for onslaught.

[Yliander]

As someone who seems to have a never ending list of injuries or body issues - It is absolutely my responsibility to tell the guy before we start dancing if one them is playing up - so that he can adjust accordingly.

Also if he forgets and leads a move that will aggravate the currently playing up injury - then I will abort the move - with a smile saying my shoulder/wrist/neck/ankle/hip/toe/hand won't cope with that. I will also do this when the guy leads a move that he doesn't realise will aggravate my injury - somtimes the moves that will upset an injury isn't obvious

It also happens sometimes that something I thought was ok will decide that it's not once I start dancing - which will generally result in the guy leading a move and me having to abort it as discribed above and then a further explanation that x item has decided to play up.

[David Bailey]

I would love the men to tell me if i was doing something they didn't like. How else am i to improve? So guys please feel free to tell me how i can improve my follow. :flower:
Well, the hat's got to go for a start... :whistle:


I don't get offended easily. :hug:
I'm prepared to put the effort in, for a good cause. :innocent:

[JoC]

Well, the hat's got to go for a start... :whistle:

Nobody listen to this hattist fiend.

[Cruella]

Well, the hat's got to go for a start... :whistle:


I'm prepared to put the effort in, for a good cause. :innocent:
You're going to have to work much harder than that!! Sorry but the hat stays!! The peak is a great defense on the men that try to get closer than i want them to. Can take an eye out at 30 paces.

[David Bailey]

You're going to have to work much harder than that!! Sorry but the hat stays!! The peak is a great defense on the men that try to get closer than i want them to. Can take an eye out at 30 paces.
Oh OK, then, at least I can recognise you, you're the one with the weird head thing... :)

[Baruch]

It's a smurf without any rs ...
How does it sit down, then???