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Jive Brummie
18th-July-2005, 06:32 PM
Right, before we get started, I think I know the answer to this but I'll ask anyway.

Let me take you back to Blackpool of this year, Melanie and I competed and we competed well (or so we thought) but unfortunately got knocked out of the earlier rounds in the advance :tears: I would like to say I maintained a stiff upper lip...but it somewhat quivered!

One of the judges offered some feedback, not just to us but to all the competitors. Now this is someone who I have massive respect for, they've danced here there and everywhere and are highly regarded by all and sundry.

Their response was that they felt we relied a little too much on 'body control' rather than moves.

A point I accepted and have since been working upon rectifying with Melanie. My point is, and this could go on forever and a day, isn't dancing about....dancing. I'm not keen on move after move and personally think body control is as hard if not harder to accomplish than doing wurlitzer-ding-dong-flippety-flop.

We interpreted the music well and had a great time overall but are we to just bite the bullet and turn into move monsters or just continue along our path as we see fit?

Answers on a postcard to....

good comments only please, and no arguing! :whistle:

James :cheers:

Aleks
18th-July-2005, 06:42 PM
I suspect the answer to your question depends on whether you want to win competitions.......you now know the criteria for doing well/winning the Blackpool Advanced....whether you choose to 'conform'......hmmmmmmm.

I prefer to watch dancers who have style and interpret the music well to those doing the flipperty flop :wink:

JoC
18th-July-2005, 07:03 PM
Just peeping my head around the door to ask a wee question here as I'm grossly underqualified, and don't know anything about competitions :confused: , but does doing lots of 'moves' have to compromise your body control?

Minnie M
18th-July-2005, 07:19 PM
I wasn't at Blackpool but I saw you and Mel dance at the Jive Masters comp. and I think you were robbed :really: you two have such chemistry you are a joy to watch

However, I am a dancer not a judge .......... After watching SDF I have come to the conclusion that competion dancing contains at least 60% choreographed routines and should also included at least two wow factors and clever tricks.

Everyone is still talking about Natalie and Yuval - they are not only fantastic dancers with great musicality but their wow factor topped all the scales :worthy: also, Jordan & Tatiana, same recipe :worthy: - mind you we are talking world class here :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Personally, I think you two are both very talented - given the time to practice and good choreography (and lots of patience) you could get there, you are certainly in the right age group for it :flower:

MartinHarper
18th-July-2005, 07:32 PM
They felt we relied a little too much on 'body control' rather than moves.

Having seen you dance, maybe I should be able to guess, but...

What is "body control"?

animaltalk
18th-July-2005, 07:34 PM
I'm going to have to talk generally, as I haven't seen the two of you dance.

But I've always thought judges rated moves/wow factor over the ability to interpret music - sadly IMHO
I've watched too many comps where dancers have done move after move after move -straight through breaks etc etc - and stlll be placed. They had their set routine and were going to do it no matter what the music did. Arrrggghh

Yes the best dancers do everything, but I think the priorities should be reversed.

Minor Diversion
I saw a Jack and Jill "SwingW competition on the web, where the dancers appeared to be changing partners with the other competitors at their level. ie Dance with a Stranger, but only advanced dancers - A real test of lead and follow and musicality - REAL DANCING

Jive Brummie
18th-July-2005, 07:39 PM
Thanks guys :blush:

To go with JoC's point, no, I guess it doesn't mean compromising one for the other. However I have seen many competitors doing just this and they seem to then end up lacking :sick: That's certainly not meant in a derogatory way, but those who spring to mind so far have been great dancers in their own right and then once they've been 'advised' seem to have gone into obscurity.

Musicality is so much of a buzz word with everyone having a different understanding of it..surely someone who is being musical or is displaying musicality is dancing...what more do you have to do?

Take the jivemasters for example (please don't turn this into a pro's and con's for the jivemasters...ta :flower: ). On the first year of running, competitors were aloud to do aerials....And being the superficial people we all are :blush: , practised these kind of moves as they are exactly the sort of thing that impress' the crowd (to a degree), sure enough Melanie and I did the same and our dancing suffered horrendously (sp?) for it. In hind sight, we shouldn't have given a stuff about changing our dance to suit others...but should this 'sacrifice' be obligatory to those wanting to compete at a higher level?

As a dancer and competitor I'm as impressed by a gucci move as i am some cheeky body movement, but i have to be honest the body movement wins hands down as i'm aware of how hard they are to accomplish and make look anywhere near decent. A tricky move can surely be practised a couple of times and then used in freestyle?

J x x

Minnie M
18th-July-2005, 07:49 PM
Out of interest has Dan Baines :worthy: ever won any of our competitions - the only competition I have seen him do, he was disqualified :tears:

Paul F
18th-July-2005, 07:52 PM
As a dancer and competitor I'm as impressed by a gucci move as i am some cheeky body movement, but i have to be honest the body movement wins hands down as i'm aware of how hard they are to accomplish and make look anywhere near decent. A tricky move can surely be practised a couple of times and then used in freestyle?

J x x

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Never heard of the gucci move :grin: but respect none the less. Please please please dont turn your dancing into an aerial'fest :mad:
Yourself and Melanie are great dancers. Its unfortunate that the judges may be swayed by flash moves but until we start teaching technique, control etc in MJ classes I guess they have to be dont they?

Minnie M
18th-July-2005, 08:18 PM
...... Please please please dont turn your dancing into an aerial'fest :mad:
Yourself and Melanie are great dancers. Its unfortunate that the judges may be swayed by flash moves but until we start teaching technique, control etc in MJ classes I guess they have to be dont they?
:yeah: :worthy:


...... given the time to practice and good choreography (and lots of patience) you could get there, you are certainly in the right age group for it
Sorry didn't mean to sound patronising :sad: I am certainly not qualified to give advice :blush: (was too late to edit it out :tears: )

Jive Brummie
18th-July-2005, 09:52 PM
Having seen you dance, maybe I should be able to guess, but...

What is "body control"?


Good question and like many things, can be perceived differently by different people. To me however it suggests stuff like body rolls/ripples, hip-pop's, arm movements...pretty much anything that isn't undertaking a recognised move :confused:

In all honesty, possibly things that aren't always leadable :blush:


Blackpool was a tricky one. On the judging panel there was such a different array of styles, abilities and performers that it would have been hard to please them all and it would have been nice to know a little more clearly what exactly is required within the individual judging fields...

J x x :cheers:

So then, 'Wow factor' or 'musicality'?

Gadget
18th-July-2005, 10:39 PM
We interpreted the music well and had a great time overall but are we to just bite the bullet and turn into move monsters or just continue along our path as we see fit?
I understand the comment to mean that by your 'focus' on body movement, you were appearing to limit the moves you were doing: I think that your existing style could (should?) be blended with moves and would produce somthing that would be awsome. :waycool:

Let me see if I can explain what I mean: You can both do shoulder bops, body rolls, steps, flicks etceteras. You do them well, synchronised and to the music. But you do them in the gaps between moves, or use them to create gaps within moves - a seperate entity from the rest of the move.
It may require some choriography to begin with, but I think that you should make these 'impact' body moves part of other moves: a simple wrap terminated by a head-flick or a head-flick used as the catalyst to un-wrap. Take the body movement and extend it into a move: a body-roll into a halleluja or crucufix, a step-slide into a barrel roll...
Yes? Try to do something else at the same time as doing the body isolation thing - but don't simply do it and return to the same point you started. Like turning or taking a step or dropping or...

To be better than you already are, I don't really think that you need any more moves: just need to blur the lines between your 'moves' and your 'styling'.

{All IMHO and from my limited observation of your dancing - which is :worthy: anyway.}

Gary
19th-July-2005, 01:10 AM
I suspect the answer to your question depends on whether you want to win competitions.......you now know the criteria for doing well/winning the Blackpool Advanced....whether you choose to 'conform'......hmmmmmmm.

I prefer to watch dancers who have style and interpret the music well to those doing the flipperty flop :wink:
:yeah:

I personally suspect that I'd do better in competitions if my partner and I worked on choreographed mini-routines which could be slotted in to "mostly" fit the music. But I'd rather be making it all up on the fly, and winning isn't that big a deal that it's worth being a different kind of dancer than I want to be.

Roger C
19th-July-2005, 01:56 AM
But I've always thought judges rated moves/wow factor over the ability to interpret music - sadly IMHO
I've watched too many comps where dancers have done move after move after move -straight through breaks etc etc - and stlll be placed. They had their set routine and were going to do it no matter what the music did. Arrrggghh

Yes the best dancers do everything, but I think the priorities should be reversed.

To be honest the judges often don't have enough time to spot if dancers are doing set routines - The organisers either have to give the judges more rounds so that it is apparent that set routines are being dance in the freestyle sections or they need to have some people checking that the freestyle rules are being adhered to - until something like this happens, then some dancers are going to do well out of doing either set routines or even mini routines.

When the first Modern Jive Championship was held in 1994 run by Le Jive the Advance Freestyle section was the Blue Ribbon event - wouldn't it be great if true freestyling was to make are return and that any routine should be in the correct section - The Showcase section.


Roger C

Roger C
19th-July-2005, 02:19 AM
:yeah:

I personally suspect that I'd do better in competitions if my partner and I worked on choreographed mini-routines which could be slotted in to "mostly" fit the music. But I'd rather be making it all up on the fly, and winning isn't that big a deal that it's worth being a different kind of dancer than I want to be.


Sorry to say that I think that you are right - I think that the organisers of the various competitions need to state either the aims or the goals of the competition and to set the highest standards possible in order that Modern Jive has the opportunity to grow.

Maybe originality and musicality need to be awarded a higher profile with regards to the marks.

Good well choosen music should inspire the dancers to push the boundaries of freestyle and hopefully leave the routine dancers in their wake. But the organisers need to make sure that they are not rewarding people doing routines. Because they run the risk that in the end the dancers will not support their competitions.

Roger C

DavidB
19th-July-2005, 04:03 AM
The criteria for all modern Jive competitions boil down to the same elements:
- technique
- content
- musical interpretation
- performance

Why should musical interpretation be any more important than the others. Is it ok to win a competition if you can't lead & follow? Or you just do the same 6 moves throughout the entire day? Or you wear clothes that make you invisible on the floor, and dance in a corner with your backs to the judges?

Every couple has their strengths and weaknesses. There are a few active competitive couples whose strength is musical interpretation. But this is not the reason they don't win. They have more weaknesses in other areas than the other couples, and this causes them to be marked down.

If someone were truly world-class at musical interpretation then it would be an interesting question. At the moment though it is nowhere near.

A couple of other things to consider:

People are very good at spotting repetition. If a couple do the same lift/drop/complicated move more than once in a song, it gets noticed, especially by the judges. Now how much of the 'musical interpretation' is repetitive? The same line when hitting a break? The same way of getting out of a pose? The same body ripple? Even worse, how much of it is the same, no matter what the music?

A lot of musical interpretation you see in competitions comes in between moves. It is effectively solo dancing whilst holding hands. But the last time I checked, Modern Jive was still a partner dance. The interpretation needs to come within the framework of the partner dance, and not forced into the gaps.

David

John S
19th-July-2005, 10:58 AM
:....... and winning isn't that big a deal that it's worth being a different kind of dancer than I want to be.
Speaking as one with very limited experience of winning anything at dancing, a situation highly unlikely to change at my age unless there is a Centenarians' Event( :sick: ), I agree with this line.

In my (not-so-humble) opinion, the partner dancing experience should be primarily about enjoyment, participation, self-expression, interaction, physical exercise, fulfilment of potential, musical interpretation, pleasing/stretching one's partner (ohh and maybe a bit of flirting :whistle: ).

If you do all this AND those observing (judges or otherwise) like what they see then that's A Good Thing as you're pleasing third parties as well. If they don't like it, so what - surely that isn't why you're dancing?

In all artistic and sporting spheres there is a trade-off between artistic integrity and commercial success - to some extent maybe that's happening in the MJ arena, with semi-professional teachers trading on competition successes, but if it develops to the point of having competitions aimed only at potential winners who all do the same style of dancing then it would be a pity - one of the strengths of MJ is its ability to let different styles flourish, so let's leave assimilation to the Borg.

There's nothing at all wrong with using dance competitions for self-improvement, but actually seeking to "Win" a competition implies that lots of others must "Lose", and once the emphasis goes on that aspect rather than on why someone took up dancing in the first place, and especially if it involves compromising one's natural style, then I believe something has been lost.

I realise this sounds like an "anti-competition" rant, but it's not. Just let's keep it in perspective. Anyone with half an eye can see that James and Melanie are top-class dancers doing their own thing, and long may that continue. :worthy:

Finally, to answer James' question, my answer is "No - Competitions are won by Competitors!" If you want to win a competition more than you want to dance to your own strengths, then fair enough - if you have the raw talent then sacrifice, hard work and compromise may well get you there - but is it worth it? Only you can say!

Sheepman
19th-July-2005, 12:47 PM
Out of interest has Dan Baines :worthy: ever won any of our competitions Yes, LeJive 1998 (?) at Camden, I'm sure he won the Intermediate. The same year that David & Lily took the showcase title I think?

Greg

stewart38
19th-July-2005, 12:50 PM
I
Everyone is still talking about Natalie and Yuval - they are not only fantastic dancers with great musicality but their wow factor topped all the scales :worthy: also, Jordan & Tatiana, same recipe :worthy: - mind you we are talking world class here :worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

:flower:

yes they had musicality still missing from many so called 'top dancers'

Not sure if judges would pick up on that though

Simon r
19th-July-2005, 01:06 PM
yes they had musicality still missing from many so called 'top dancers'

Not sure if judges would pick up on that though


hmmm but you can of course

Rebecca
19th-July-2005, 01:45 PM
My only experience of this was during the Ceroc Champs in May. A friend and I entered the Intermediate section for the first time and were a bit nervous. We would have been glad not to have fallen on our faces and had no particular aspirations about winning, but it is a competition and so obviously you want to do well:

In our anxious state, during the first round we threw in a fair few more tricky moves (drops, splits etc), and were overjoyed when we got through to the next round. :clap:
We figured, nothing to lose now. . .

The second round came and one of my favourite jazzy tracks came on - my face lit up and I beamed at my partner. We floated around the dance floor and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. We were knocked out then of course, but I really didn't care (which is unusual for me).

stewart38
19th-July-2005, 01:46 PM
hmmm but you can of course

of course :grin:


You could argue most 'dancers' dont win comps but names do and/or those that walk around the dance floor at the same tempo regardless of the beat. Some would argue differently of course :wink:

David Franklin
19th-July-2005, 01:53 PM
Good question and like many things, can be perceived differently by different people. To me however it suggests stuff like body rolls/ripples, hip-pop's, arm movements...pretty much anything that isn't undertaking a recognised move :confused:

In all honesty, possibly things that aren't always leadable :blush: Interesting you say this. The only footage I have you dancing is from Blackpool 2004. On that basis I certainly don't see that you lack moves. If I had to criticise someone so much better than I am, I did think your connection sometimes suffered during the body control moves. I'm not sure anyone over here does it better, but it's something you really notice the top WCS dancers do.

From what I've seen, it's the advanced category I have the most disagreement with the judging. In the open, yes, you need flash moves, but you need to do them well, they need to blend with the dancing, and you need musicality. But it really does just seem to be "moves moves moves" in the advanced. I've watched advanced couples and thought "all they want to do is cram in as many flash drops as possible, even if it doesn't fit the music and is done really badly - it looks awful!". They went on to win...

On t'other hand, I must admit I'd be a terrible judge - I end up just watching my favourite 2/3 couples the whole way through and having no idea about the rest!

Gus
19th-July-2005, 05:53 PM
My observation is that for most of the competitions, the Judges tend to be people who represent the 'best' of Modern Jive. If anyone should have an opinion about what is 'good', then these guys should. I always told my dancers that considering who the judges were they either accept their decision or they shouldn't compete (I dont think that complaining gets you anywhere) .... then came the day when I decided I didnt undrestand the judges decision, so I simply stopped competing :nice:

Jive Brummie
19th-July-2005, 06:04 PM
On t'other hand, I must admit I'd be a terrible judge - I end up just watching my favourite 2/3 couples the whole way through and having no idea about the rest!

This is an interesting thing actually...(bare with me I do have a point....i think).

At the end of the day who should be placed? Those that everyone is captivated by or those that have fulfilled the marking criteria? The reason i ask is because i think there are differences between the two.

Every now and then i ask my mom (!) what she thinks about our dancing, their dancing, whoever's dancing. And the reason i ask is because she doesn't dance! Never has and until i can twist her arm around her back (no it's not a new move) she never will. However my reasoning for this is because she doesn't dance she will observe and give me an honest answer to who she likes the most. Her choices are based on who looked the best and who she felt danced the best. She has no idea about musical interpretation or technique or anything like that, but knows at the end of the day, what she likes.

Now onto the judges. Surely a judge could watch a couple and think they're fab, look good, seem to be enjoying it all and overall captivate them. However because they must comply with the marking guide they may end up giving their fave's the lowest mark because it transpires they didn't put in as much as they should have?

Is that fair? I don't know...

Comments please

J

Jive Brummie
19th-July-2005, 06:06 PM
Or you wear clothes that make you invisible on the floor, and dance in a corner with your backs to the judges?


David

:blush:

Mr Cool
19th-July-2005, 06:34 PM
Right, before we get started, I think I know the answer to this but I'll ask anyway.

Let me take you back to Blackpool of this year, Melanie and I competed and we competed well (or so we thought) but unfortunately got knocked out of the earlier rounds in the advance :tears: I would like to say I maintained a stiff upper lip...but it somewhat quivered!

One of the judges offered some feedback, not just to us but to all the competitors. Now this is someone who I have massive respect for, they've danced here there and everywhere and are highly regarded by all and sundry.

Their response was that they felt we relied a little too much on 'body control' rather than moves.

A point I accepted and have since been working upon rectifying with Melanie. My point is, and this could go on forever and a day, isn't dancing about....dancing. I'm not keen on move after move and personally think body control is as hard if not harder to accomplish than doing wurlitzer-ding-dong-flippety-flop


I believe there are dancers who are totally led by the music and its interpretation, for these people the music is King. Moves are secondary and in general they believe less is more.
Then there are dancers to whom moves are King. To them the music is not important they have to get in to the dance every different flash move they know. unfortunately the majority of dancers and judges more or less fall into the moves catergory.
I would suggest the music people are outnumbered by at least 10 to 1 in most styles of dance, which is such a shame. C' est la vie
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

David Franklin
19th-July-2005, 06:52 PM
Or you wear clothes that make you invisible on the floor, and dance in a corner with your backs to the judges?

:blush:So that's where the missing invisibility cloak got to!

Oops, wrong thread...

David Bailey
19th-July-2005, 08:01 PM
Hmmm, thinking a bit about it, I think the discussion of exact proportions of "musicality" versus "moves" versus "presentation" versus "whatever" misses the point. I don't believe MJ competitions would be great with more musicality and judgement of such, it's like adjusting the side mirror on the car, when the problem is that the engine's missing.


Now onto the judges. Surely a judge could watch a couple and think they're fab, look good, seem to be enjoying it all and overall captivate them. However because they must comply with the marking guide they may end up giving their fave's the lowest mark because it transpires they didn't put in as much as they should have?

Is that fair? I don't know...

Comments please
Well, my comment, which you'll probably not like, is that Modern Jive Competitions Are Evil. Errr... does that help? :innocent:

I've not really changed my mind on this one since I posted a thread on this topic (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5210) way back in April.

Again, I emphasize that I mean no disrespect to the people who work hard in entering and judging these things - but I just don't think they're natural for MJ, with the possible exception of various DWAS-variants.

Competitions are fine for ballroom dancing - the emphasis there is very much more on having and staying with one partner. In MJ, for me at least, the whole ethos is one of dancing with lots of people; therefore I view most competitions as exhibitions / cabarets / business promotional exercises, they don't really connect to the reality of MJ as I experience it, so I can't really identify with it.

I know this conversation's been had many a time - but the very fact that it's still controversial means to me that the case for MJ competitions is, at the very least, arguable.

On the topic of judging competitions, I'm fully with Gus on this one - if you don't like the rules, don't play the game. I doubt most judges have the discernment or technical background of DavidB - in fact, I know they don't. So you've got to play the game if you want to win. And if you don't want to win, err, why enter? :confused:


then came the day when I decided I didnt undrestand the judges decision, so I simply stopped competing :nice:
In this country at least :)

Jive Brummie
19th-July-2005, 10:09 PM
I appreciate all the points and yes i agree, if you want to play the game then you should play to their rules.

However my question still stands...do dancers win dance competitions. At the moment i'm inclined to think that couples that are more 'move' oriented are likely to achieve more success :tears: . This is not to take anything away from those that do.

An example of this i guess and i hope they don't mind me mentioning them seeing as they're on the vid, but in the first jivemasters Amir and Tas came 3rd place, (and without getting all contraversial, maybe deserved higher) however my point is they appeared to me to actually 'dance' more to the music rather than complete a number of moves. If you watch the vid they're all over the floor covering loads of ground and it all looks good. If you look closer though, much of it consists of travelling returns etc...but just really, really, really well. Now does this conform to the "you need to put in more arm tangle moves theory" or not?

I like this thread :clap:

J x x

Simon r
19th-July-2005, 10:29 PM
Right, before we get started, I think I know the answer to this but I'll ask anyway.

Let me take you back to Blackpool of this year, Melanie and I competed and we competed well (or so we thought) but unfortunately got knocked out of the earlier rounds in the advance :tears: I would like to say I maintained a stiff upper lip...but it somewhat quivered!

One of the judges offered some feedback, not just to us but to all the competitors. Now this is someone who I have massive respect for, they've danced here there and everywhere and are highly regarded by all and sundry.

Their response was that they felt we relied a little too much on 'body control' rather than moves.

A point I accepted and have since been working upon rectifying with Melanie. My point is, and this could go on forever and a day, isn't dancing about....dancing. I'm not keen on move after move and personally think body control is as hard if not harder to accomplish than doing wurlitzer-ding-dong-flippety-flop.

We interpreted the music well and had a great time overall but are we to just bite the bullet and turn into move monsters or just continue along our path as we see fit?

Answers on a postcard to....

good comments only please, and no arguing! :whistle:

James :cheers:


Hmm been thinking about your original question ...

previous winners of comps last couple of years at least include
Clayton And Janine
Will and Kate
victor and lydia and (carole)
Phil and Yuko
Robert and nicky
dave and Lily
Nigel and nina

all of the above couples i believe do dance (except for dave but lily makes up for that)
and have won on dancing merit not for set moves...
all of the above men show off there partner and completely compliment each other, in comps all couples have met the criteria that was required to win the comp so not sure what your original question means do you feel all of these couples are not able to dance....
if so think your wrong by a long way as i have seen all freestyle and boy can they dance..
At a comp you dance to the judges to win there vote ,have not seen the dvd yet but watched your round and as Dave explained you danced to each other ,and with your backs to the judges in a dark corner of the floor, you as a couple have great musicality but i can not remember you grabbing my attention ...
I think this has already been said, but you need to change these factors to be noticed and then move on to the next round...
All these factors have nothing to do with your title:
(do you have to be able to dance.....)
Think this was a bad choice of thread title unless you are just trying to wind people up...
In answer do dancers win dance comps YES they do .....

skippy
19th-July-2005, 10:31 PM
I personally think that if you show that you are enjoying yourselves and that you are intune with the music and each other you are more than half way there. :wink:
I don't like clear choegraphered moves but well practised moves I like.... :flower:

David Franklin
19th-July-2005, 11:04 PM
At a comp you dance to the judges to win there vote ,have not seen the dvd yet but watched your round and as Dave explained you danced to each other ,and with your backs to the judges in a dark corner of the floor, you as a couple have great musicality but i can not remember you grabbing my attention ...
I think this has already been said, but you need to change these factors to be noticed and then move on to the next round...I wasn't there, but what you say sounds helpful and constructive. But even assuming all the above to be true, I notice none of your criticisms include the one the judges gave of "relying on body control, rather than moves".

I'll agree the title is perhaps unfortunate, but if I were JB and got that feedback (i.e. the judges' feedback), I think I might be a little aggrieved too. Because I think it should be about a lot more than "moves". Though of course, it's all very easy me armchair quarterbacking without even having seen the performance.

One thing I'll say about both this and the other similar thread. I really do think everyone who gets to the final of a comp, even at intermediate level, thinks they have good musical interpretation and works hard at it. It's very easy to post here and say "only a very few dancers dance with the music". Unless you get up on the floor and prove otherwise, I'm forced to assume you are (at best) no better than those finalists - they, I'm sure, would all claim they are one of the very few as well.

Jive Brummie
19th-July-2005, 11:31 PM
Ok fellow tigers...calm down!

Sorry about what appears to be a poor choice of thread title..(I particularly tried to make it unoffensive, sorry :flower: ), but my question was to ask you lot exactly what you see as being more important to dance i guess, not in any way slagging any past competitors or winners off.

Those that know Melanie and I, and simon...that includes you :worthy: , knows exactly the high regard we hold for all those people you've mentioned. Interestingly, all of the above, to me, are dancers and not move monsters and so it made me wonder if "arm tangle" moves are so important in competition. The feedback we were given did not make either of us feel aggrieved in any way shape or form. In fact it was most welcome as we had no idea of which direction to try and improve our dancing until said judge made their comments.

J :flower:

p.s. i think the dancing in particular areas of the dance floor thing could also be a bit of a bone of contention. If certain areas are worse for dancing in than others, why isn't it cordened off? Somebody has to dance there and as common courtesy suggests, you wouldn't enter the floor until you were called, hence if you were called on last, wouldn't this potentially be the only place to go? Could the judges position themselves better to see all competitors?

Jive Brummie
19th-July-2005, 11:41 PM
We interpreted the music well and had a great time overall but are we to just bite the bullet and turn into move monsters or just continue along our path as we see fit?

Answers on a postcard to....

good comments only please, and no arguing! :whistle:

James :cheers:


Sorry guys if this statement makes it sound as though anyone who wins or is placed in a comp is a move monster...as they're obviously not...I'm just pretty pants at basics....like english language :sick:

bigdjiver
20th-July-2005, 12:38 AM
Are we really aspiring towards the figure skating scenario where dancers have to do set patterns and the judges scores on technique have a high correlation to those for "artistic impression"? I love seeing a beautiful move done beautifully, but I also like to have my imagination stimulated by original ideas. I usually rate original "Wow" moves done imperfectly above standard ones done to perfection, but my favourite showcase routines that I have on tape span the spectrum, and I would find it hard to place them in order. Each is very special in its own way, and none of them look like a potential standard routine.

David Bailey
20th-July-2005, 09:45 AM
One could also argue that commercial considerations are a factor, consciously or otherwise (the "will they look good on the DVD" question). This is not just about visuals (costume, look, highly visual style, hair), but about "routine-copyability" factors - I belive lots of people buy DVDs to copy moves, rather than to copy style.

And if the moves are "lots of returns, done really well" (which to me sounds like a lovely routine), that may score less than more copy-able moves...

I also like this thread, but don't tell anyone :)

Simon r
20th-July-2005, 10:51 AM
One could also argue that commercial considerations are a factor, consciously or otherwise (the "will they look good on the DVD" question). This is not just about visuals (costume, look, highly visual style, hair), but about "routine-copyability" factors - I belive lots of people buy DVDs to copy moves, rather than to copy style.

And if the moves are "lots of returns, done really well" (which to me sounds like a lovely routine), that may score less than more copy-able moves...

I also like this thread, but don't tell anyone :)



What a load of tosh this thread had nothing to do about looking good on a dvd ...
Not one of the comp winners will make money from a dvd of the comp,
so why would this be taken into consideration for there freestyle dancing.

David Bailey
20th-July-2005, 11:04 AM
What a load of tosh
Come on. don't hold back, say what you really mean... :whistle:


Not one of the comp winners will make money from a dvd of the comp, so why would this be taken into consideration for there freestyle dancing.
My point was that this "marketability of routine" may be a factor in the judging, which presumably on the "playing the game" approach would therefore be a factor for competitors.

I've no idea if this is true, but this thread is about throwing up possibilities and seeing where they land, rather than concrete observations. So that was my contribution, tosh though it may be.

For example, I doubt any Official Judges are going to say in public "Yep, we're biased towards young and good-looking dancers, doing flashy routines, who'll look good on the DVDs and other promotional material." But that doesn't mean there is no such bias.

alex
20th-July-2005, 11:31 AM
who are these 'move monsters' that a few of you are complaining about?

there are 3 couples at the moment who dominate the top places. clayton & janine, will & kate and phil & yuko. all these couples can do a lot of moves but thats not what makes them stand out. clayton & janine are superb performers. phil & yuko have excellent technique and style. will & kate are the best couple ive seen at fitting moves to the music.

in the last few years comps have also been won by james & lily, gary & hailey, viktor & carol and adam & tas. all these couples won based on their style and musicality, and not on their moves.

in the final at blackpool this year you had simon & lisa, alex (not me) & jane, and tony & amy. all made their first major open final, and all got there because of their style.

alex

bigdjiver
20th-July-2005, 11:35 AM
The superbly dressed and flashy move-aholics will also appear on the video along with the winners, if not as the winners, so I cannot see that being a consideration.

I am sure that how the competitors look and the image of the dance is a factor in competition success, and would help to get competitors into the finals, as will flashy moves, even if quality of performance were to be be the critical factor.

stewart38
20th-July-2005, 11:35 AM
who are these 'move monsters' that a few of you are complaining about?

there are 3 couples at the moment who dominate the top places. clayton & janine, will & kate and phil & yuko. all these couples can do a lot of moves but thats not what makes them stand out. clayton & janine are superb performers. phil & yuko have excellent technique and style. will & kate are the best couple ive seen at fitting moves to the music.

in the last few years comps have also been won by james & lily, gary & hailey, viktor & carol and adam & tas. all these couples won based on their style and musicality, and not on their moves.

in the final at blackpool this year you had simon & lisa, alex (not me) & jane, and tony & amy. all made their first major open final, and all got there because of their style.

alex

mmmmm :whistle:

DavidB
20th-July-2005, 11:36 AM
For example, I doubt any Official Judges are going to say in public "Yep, we're biased towards young and good-looking dancers, doing flashy routines, who'll look good on the DVDs and other promotional material." But that doesn't mean there is no such bias.There is no such bias.

David Franklin
20th-July-2005, 11:48 AM
there are 3 couples at the moment who dominate the top places. clayton & janine, will & kate and phil & yuko. all these couples can do a lot of moves but thats not what makes them stand out. clayton & janine are superb performers. phil & yuko have excellent technique and style. will & kate are the best couple ive seen at fitting moves to the music.

in the last few years comps have also been won by james & lily, gary & hailey, viktor & carol and adam & tas. all these couples won based on their style and musicality, and not on their moves.Fair comment. However, all those couples have the moves as well. I do believe that for the very top competition dancers, the moves v.s. style v.s. musicality debate is a lot less of an issue. People have strengths and weaknesses, but no-one is truly weak in any of those areas. But below those heights, it does seem flash moves with poor musicality will get you further than strong musicality but uninteresting moves. (Or alternatively, the judges are seeing something I'm missing). To sum up, you won't find "move monsters" winning or even placing in the top category. But they do reasonably well in the other categories.

Andy McGregor
20th-July-2005, 12:18 PM
There is no such bias.You say that now, and it might be true, now. But it was quite plain to any observer that it hasn't always been so.

My own opinion is that, with one notable and now demised exception, the judges choose the winners. You need to find out what the judges are looking for and give it to them. If you don't give them what they want you will not win. If JB is doing the best wiggling, body rippling, shoulder popping on the planet and the judges aren't looking for it he will not win.

My tip is to contact the judges and ask them what they're looking for - seems a bit too easy now I've said it :whistle:

Sparkles
20th-July-2005, 12:20 PM
Having seen the finals for the advanced and open categories at MJ competitions I personally don't know how the judges choose between the finalists. MJ encompasses so many styles and techniques, moves and movements, interpretations and extrapolations that to compare two couples must be near-on impossible.

Also, it should be remembered that the judges, like your Mum JB :whistle:, know what they like and while they are marking on the criteria that has already been mentioned they are also looking at whose dancing particularly appeals to them. On another day with another set of judges the same couples dancing the same way might have quite different results.

You can't plan to make your dancing change for the judges, you have to dance for YOU. You have to be the best dancer you can be, and if that means that you don't win competitions it's not your fault; just don't let it detract from your enjoyment of dancing.

I'm not saying don't try and improve, and obviously there are things you can do in competition to get attention from the judges, but it's not a case of 'people who do lots of complicated moves will win' or 'people with good musical interpretation will win' it's a case of 'the dancers that most impress the judges will win'. If you dance in your own little world quietly in one corner of the room and don't attempt to draw attention to yourself then you're unlikely to be noticed in a competition.

If you don't mind some constructive critisism the only advice I could give is this: after seeing you and Mel dance well in the Jive Masters I still did not believe you would make the final (and I'm sorry to say that because you are both wonderful dancers). The reason I give for this is that I felt like you were not dancing for the audience or the judges or the competition, but dancing for yourselves. Your connection is one of the most wonderful things about your dancing - to see you enjoying yourselves and your time on the floor together is a joy - but in a competition you're surrounded by a crowd of people and a team of judges that want to get in on the act too. You need to draw people into your world, so that they can't take their eyes off you and the only way to do that is to open yourselves up every now and then, do some moves people can relate to, do something that says 'HEY LOOK AT US!' and then do what you do best.

It's my belief that big/unusual moves are not necessarily what gets the marks, but it's what draws the eye away from other competitors. Doing a 'big' move badly will automatically make people look away again, but a 'big' move done well will catch the eye and leave people thinking 'I wonder what they will do next...?!' - and so the 8 bars or so following a big move are probably the most important, that's when you have people's full attention.

Please don't think I mean to undermine your, or anyone else's, dancing. You asked what could be done to help you win in competition, and I hope these comments will help. For the amount of time and effort I know you put in you deserve not to get knocked out, but on the day only the judges can decide these things. Try not to take it personally, although I know it's hard.

S. x
(stands back and waits to be flamed)

Andy McGregor
20th-July-2005, 12:52 PM
(stands back and waits to be flamed)This is a great post, very real - and a bit scary. Have some rep :flower:

I was at the Jivemasters and saw James and Mel dance. I agree that they deserved to be there because they are great MJ'ers. But I also agree with Sparkles. My advice is the same. Get the judges attention, own the room, have big gestures that take in the room, look at the judges, catch their eye (I know there were over 800 of them at the Jivemasters, but usually there's only 6-8), and, most importantly, know where the judges are and direct your dancing at them, not each other - although you still need to demonstrate a connection.

When you compete you're putting on a show - so you need to show off. Imagine that people paid money to see your show and give them their money's worth. Don't dance like the only person that paid you is your partner :wink: You are a patnership and you've got nothing to prove to each other. You chose each other and you're in it together. It's the two of you against the world - the world doesn't stand a chance :clap:

DavidB
20th-July-2005, 01:02 PM
But it was quite plain to any observer that it hasn't always been so.??? Which competition was rigged to sell more DVDs?

John S
20th-July-2005, 01:06 PM
(stands back and waits to be flamed)
No flaming from me, excellent post, Sparkles.

Like everyone else with a slightly non-standard MJ style, J&M need to decide if they just want to win competitions, bearing in mind whatever biasses / prejudices / preferences the existing top MJ judges have, or pursue/develop their own style with the hope/belief that eventually it will be recognised as better than whatever else is on offer.

Andy McGregor
20th-July-2005, 01:06 PM
??? Which competition was rigged to sell more DVDs?None. But the early Ceroc Champs seemed to have a bias for young, good looking champions. And the, now demised, competition I was referring to is the LeJive comp where the judges didn't have the final say in the line-up of winners :angry:

latinlover
20th-July-2005, 01:24 PM
Your connection is one of the most wonderful things about your dancing - to see you enjoying yourselves and your time on the floor together is a joy - but in a competition you're surrounded by a crowd of people and a team of judges that want to get in on the act too. You need to draw people into your world, so that they can't take their eyes off you and the only way to do that is to open yourselves up every now and then, do some moves people can relate to, do something that says 'HEY LOOK AT US!' and then do what you do best.


.................................................. .............

..................and so the 8 bars or so following a big move are probably the most important, that's when you have people's full attention.


(stands back and waits to be flamed)

:yeah: :clap:

excellent,reasoned post ,Sparkles!
no flaming from me :flower:

I thoroughly enjoyed James' & Melanie's dancing at Jive Masters,-I DID notice them over at the back there, (and I marked them very highly ,too)but I think your point about showing off(and OUT)is absolutely right.
that's what defines the TOP,TOP dancers for me.
So,JB, if you'll take advice from someone who's only ever competed once in a proper dance competition (apart from DWAS), :blush: then concentrate on the performance -cos all the rest is SO there!

Sheepman
20th-July-2005, 01:29 PM
You can't plan to make your dancing change for the judges, you have to dance for YOU. You have to be the best dancer you can be, I could take issue with this, but only a little...
Having spoken to judges, and having done competition workshops, I've been advised that finding out who the judges are is good planning. You can then "adjust" your style to suit what they like.
The fact that it is virtually impossible to find out who is judging for most competitions, and that "adjusting" style could take weeks of practice, does mean I tend to dance "my style" anyway (hopefully with adjustments for the style of the music.)

Greg

Petal
20th-July-2005, 01:49 PM
So then, 'Wow factor' or 'musicality'?

But, you do both. :worthy:

Jive Brummie
20th-July-2005, 01:52 PM
All tip top post and no offence taken, so thankyou all. :flower:

So, we've identified that the judges attention needs to be grabbed by doing a flashy move. Are we talking a big travelling type jobby or maybe a wee aerial....

I need help :sick:

And to ask another potential smoking firework of a question.... Do you think the judges have a responsibility to make sure they see everyone? So if that means getting up out of their seats then so be it?

Just a question :wink:

J x x

Rebecca
20th-July-2005, 02:04 PM
I. . . having done competition workshops, . . . Greg
Greg, could you advise more on said workshops? Who does them? Could anyone PM me with this info. I'm thinking (only thinking at the moment) of choreographing a piece and would value some expert advice, regardless of whether I decide to go for it.

Thanking u :flower:
Rebecca

Andy McGregor
20th-July-2005, 02:08 PM
Do you think the judges have a responsibility to make sure they see everyone? So if that means getting up out of their seats then so be it?
I think the judges should stay in one place and make sure they look at each competitor. the reason I think this is because it makes it easier for the competitors to direct their performance at them it they are all together. This means that some competitors will be a the side or the back relative to the judges - but none of them are really that far away or invisible.

I liked the idea at Britroc where the competitors were moved around for the second track so the ones at the back were moved to the front.

DavidB
20th-July-2005, 02:11 PM
But below those heights, it does seem flash moves with poor musicality will get you further than strong musicality but uninteresting moves.You don't see that much musicality in the other categories.
You might see it if you know a good couple to watch, and you watch them throughout the entire dance. But when you are scanning the whole floor, trying to give each couple a few seconds of your time (and then trying to read their number to mark them) you don't see it.


i think the dancing in particular areas of the dance floor thing could also be a bit of a bone of contention. If certain areas are worse for dancing in than others, why isn't it cordened off? Somebody has to dance there and as common courtesy suggests, you wouldn't enter the floor until you were called, hence if you were called on last, wouldn't this potentially be the only place to go? Could the judges position themselves better to see all competitors?Some judges like staying put. Some prefer moving around. Some organisers have a preference where they place the judges. But it doesn't seem to matter what you do - you always get one couple in every heat who drift out view of the judges. If you suddenly find you have acres of space, it might be a good idea to see where everyone else is.

It would be interesting in a final to get each couple to dance by themselves for a minute before getting everyone on the floor as usual.

David
PS One request for anyone competing this weekend. Can you please put your number on your back with enough safety pins so it doesn't come off or fold up! You might have 5 judges wanting to mark you through, but noone knows who you are.

Sparkles
20th-July-2005, 02:32 PM
So, we've identified that the judges attention needs to be grabbed by doing a flashy move. Are we talking a big travelling type jobby or maybe a wee aerial....

I think this is where your dancing expertise come into play - you have to do something that you think will be attention grabbing, this may be something quick followed by a pause, something no-one has ever seen before (because you made it up yourself :worthy: ), something slow and alluring, something with a dip drop or aerial, something that you've seen someone else do and it caught your eye :wink: (if it worked to get your attention then it's likely to work to get someone elses!).


And to ask another potential smoking firework of a question.... Do you think the judges have a responsibility to make sure they see everyone? So if that means getting up out of their seats then so be it?


The judges' only responsibility is to judge the competition by whatever means they feel appropriate. They may have a framework for how they are to carry out that responsibility, put in place by the organisers, which may include moving around the floor or standing still or whatever, but no-one can tell a judge how best to judge!
Judges are picked for (among other things) their knowledge, reputation and often, for thier own dancing ability. Once the judges are chosen the competitors put themselves under their scrutiny of their own free will. It is hoped that whatever mothod the judges use in thier own minds to put people through to the next round witll be a fair and just method. If a judge decides to watch just one couple (which I'm sure none of them do, this is just example) for a whole round that is what he/she will do, whether walking around or standing still. If any judge's method ever comes under question no-doubt that person will not be picked to judge again - but from what I've seen all the judges do a (IMO) particularly difficult job to the best of thier phenominal abilities and in doing so make MJ competitions fair and worthwhile events.

S. x

David Franklin
20th-July-2005, 02:35 PM
You don't see that much musicality in the other categories.
You might see it if you know a good couple to watch, and you watch them throughout the entire dance. But when you are scanning the whole floor, trying to give each couple a few seconds of your time (and then trying to read their number to mark them) you don't see it.That's about what I'd guessed. Currently the judges don't ever see "the full picture" for any couple - they have to split their attention all over the place. In which case it may well be better competition strategy to be "pumping out flash moves" so at least you are always "doing something" when the judges look your way.

PS One request for anyone competing this weekend. Can you please put your number on your back with enough safety pins so it doesn't come off or fold up! Not that we are competing, but I don't think Bryony would be very happy doing a certain drop if I had safety pins on my back...

Sheepman
20th-July-2005, 04:25 PM
Greg, could you advise more on said workshops? Who does them? They are very rare animals. It's a long time since I've done one. The most intensive was with Amir, Clayton & Janine, Roger Chin, and several others about 2 and 1/2 years ago in Hammersmith. It included aspects of choreography for a showcase, the thoughts of the judges, and much more.
Nigel and Nina do them more regularly, mostly at weekenders like Rock Bottoms, or at Beach Boogie, maybe they'll do one next week...

Greg

Andy McGregor
20th-July-2005, 06:00 PM
Nigel and Nina do them more regularly, mostly at weekenders like Rock Bottoms, or at Beach Boogie, maybe they'll do one next week...

GregI've just heard that Nina is going to do one on the Friday before Britroc* - and you will get to hear what a judge is looking for as she will be one of them :waycool:

*finger on the pulse or what? :whistle:

jockey
21st-July-2005, 03:58 AM
I'm going to have to talk generally, as I haven't seen the two of you dance.

But I've always thought judges rated moves/wow factor over the ability to interpret music - sadly IMHO
I've watched too many comps where dancers have done move after move after move -straight through breaks etc etc - and stlll be placed. They had their set routine and were going to do it no matter what the music did. Arrrggghh

Yes the best dancers do everything, but I think the priorities should be reversed.

Minor Diversion
I saw a Jack and Jill "SwingW competition on the web, where the dancers appeared to be changing partners with the other competitors at their level. ie Dance with a Stranger, but only advanced dancers - A real test of lead and follow and musicality - REAL DANCING
I have danced in roughly nine comps and Ive had lots of discussions about them. Every entry form I have completed stresses that judging is done according to the interpretation of the music or musicality rather than the degree of difficulty or number of moves. Howver all of the judges have their own "bugbear": here are some I know of and I will attribute them in private if you wish: 1. Dancing in time;
2. Move suits music (why did they do that move then?)
3. Choreography (I dont mind a few mistakes as this shows it is not choregraphed)
4 Costume (gotta show you made an effort)
5 Referring to the judges in your dancing (e.g., looking at them)
Personally I believe that the judges should dance with the finalists: that would scare a few (see 3 above) and give them an ideas of their lead/follow skills "at first hand". :really:

ElaineB
21st-July-2005, 07:24 AM
Personally I believe that the judges should dance with the finalists: that would scare a few (see 3 above) and give them an ideas of their lead/follow skills "at first hand". :really:

Now that is a brilliant idea!!!! Anyone going to take up the challenge? :waycool:


Elaine

ElaineB
21st-July-2005, 07:31 AM
I've been advised that finding out who the judges are is good planning. You can then "adjust" your style to suit what they like.

Greg

That would have been interesting at Weston Super Mare last year though! :D

There were David and Lily, Carole Haines (Ballroom/WCS/latin/classic), Joseph and Trish (Lindy) and Kiran and Lucy Osman (modern) and one other who I can't remember ( :blush: ). Something to suit just about every dancer I think?


Elaine

bigdjiver
21st-July-2005, 11:53 AM
That would have been interesting at Weston Super Mare last year though! :D

There were David and Lily, Carole Haines (Ballroom/WCS/latin/classic), Joseph and Trish (Lindy) and Kiran and Lucy Osman (modern) and one other who I can't remember ( :blush: ). Something to suit just about every dancer I think?


ElaineI hope I am not confusing identities here, but I believe that Joseph & Trish are also expert in Blues, and that Joseph was a Ceroc teacher. I believe it was him that I have seen doing the most spectacular doubles routines I have ever seen. (On a rare visit to St Albans I got a dance with a dance diva and very beautiful lady. It was completely ruined by Joseph (I believe) doing a fantastic doubles routine with two guys next to us, and we just shuffled around and gawped at it.)

Angelina
25th-July-2005, 10:19 PM
Im new to writing on the forum but thought this would be a good place for me to make a start as his is the section i look after at the Chance 2 Dance competition in Blackpool :wink:

I would just like to emphasise how important the criteria is for each competition. With Chance 2 Dance we always post the criteria on the web page and then on the day the judges have to score each couple in each aspect of their performance - personal showmanship, content and complexity, musical interpretation, lead and follow and costume. Therefore if you are lacking in any of these you will loose points (costume is only a small aspect but it could be the difference between winning and losing!)

Finally from a judging point of view - when you arrive for the briefing before each competition you have a hour or so to digest the criteria and that is what you look for when judging (whether you like a certain style/ couple doesnt even enter the equation)

In my opinion - Read the criteria + meet the criteria = win the competition

sorry to go on a bit but its my first proper post and those that know me know that i dont shut up once i start!

Happy competing!

Angie xx :innocent:

Minnie M
25th-July-2005, 11:31 PM
......sorry to go on a bit but its my first proper post...............
Welcome lovely lady :hug: :kiss: :hug: :clap: :flower:

Angelina
26th-July-2005, 11:18 AM
Thank you!

I could get used to this!! :innocent:

JamesGeary
26th-July-2005, 01:35 PM
Stage Actors over exaggerate expressions and wear overdone makeup.
Movie actors use far less expressions and subtle makeup as you are effectively much closer.

If you had one do the other in their usual style, then it wouldn't be as good.